The War of Worldviews (connection VS separation, extremism, & revolutions) w/Jamie Winship

The only motivators for a human heart is fear or love. If you have neighbors that move in next door [music] to you and one of their kids is out in the yard and you jump over the fence, grab their kid, throw them on your side of the fence, jump back over the fence, change their name, and make them dress like your family, that's what we call evangelism or missions. Someone said to me, "If anyone can hear from God, then anyone can just do whatever they want." That's a fear statement if there ever was one. If

we could hear from God, do you think God's telling us we can do whatever we want? If you're hearing from God, you don't even need the law. That's what Jesus said in the conversation with the Samaritan woman, in the conversation with Nicodemus. [music] Jesus could literally tell them what to do, but the literalism is killing them already. He uses metaphorical allegorical language to move them up into the intuitive mind. He goes, "Do you know why we're not going to kill [music] you? Because of this daughter. This daughter makes us unwilling to kill [music] you." He

hugs her and then hands her to the father. The facilitator says, "Lord, what do you want her to know about that [music] incident?" And Jesus says to her, "You are reconciliation itself. You [music] brought peace to those rebels. You saved your father and your family's life." They were holding reconciliation [music] itself in their arms when they held you. Go and rescue your family now. Everyone wants to get to the high [music] places. But if you want to go high, you first have to go deep. What's up? Welcome back to the deep end. How are [music]

you, sir? Hey, man. You want to know something based on who we have today? Tell us everything. It's become an inside joke. I am uh exactly a 12 out of 10. Excited. Yes. Exact. That's right. I I had recovered from that injury, but [laughter] thank you for bringing that back. There was probably some some trauma therapy necessary after that. It's not holding. Yeah. I'm so sorry that that happened. Guys, we have one of our favorite people in the world. Jamie Winship is back on the show. Let me tell you a little bit about Jamie. Um,

if you haven't read the book, Living Fearless, it's his first book. We talked about it the first time he was on the show, but he has a brand new book out called War of Worldviews. You can pre-order this. It comes out May 5th, uh, the audio book and the uh, print book. But Jamie, you are someone who has I'm going to give your bio in a second, but I want to give like just my thanks to you first. Um, I've obviously read your book and have watched all your material and kind of studied it and

tried to get get it worked through my Worldview. Uh, but you're somebody that I had a difficult encounter. Didn't know what to do with it a couple of months ago. Um, and you helped me navigate through it. I think it's crazy when you see the ripple effect of what you've had to go through and what you've had to survive and what you've had to figure out. Um, I don't say this often and I don't say it lightly, but you've probably changed the trajectory of my family. Um, so I just want to say thank you personally.

Oh yeah. Thank you. That's encouraging. Yeah. Thanks. Um, I'm not afraid of anything now. Perfect. Fearless of of everything. But for those of you who don't know, Jamie is has decades of experience bringing peaceful solutions and conflict resolutions to some of the world's highest conflict areas. and he's worked with leaders in professional sports, business, education, law enforcement, government, nonprofit, many sectors. He's uh obviously the author of the book Living Fearless. And um he and his wife are co-founders of Identity Exchange, which is a training and consultant agency that helps individuals and teams achieve wholeness and

resiliency within the framework of true identity. And so you're a master at helping untangle the lies and the knots. See what I did there? sneak your identity into it. Thank you. I'm a [laughter] professional. Yes. No doubt what I do. Uh but helping people navigate who does God say that they are, who are they? Who were they built to be? And then uh take that healing to other people. Did I miss anything? I don't think so. Was holistic and complete? I think so. Honestly, you did a really good job. Thank you. Jamie Winship is I

think when you bring him up like I think I think of uh the person who brings Jesus to our everyday life and that cares about the details. So I think Yeah. Do you feel like you align with that? We're going to let you talk in a second. We're just talking. This [laughter] is great. I'll just sit here and listen. The first 20 minutes for us raving about you and you're sitting next to us. Um I think there's so much I want to talk about. Well, I want to get into some of this book and just

I have questions to to help understand what you're trying to tackle with the whole worldview seems to be like a macroorganizational operating system for people. You talked about paradigms in the first episode as well, but can we first go into one of the more controversial pieces from your last episode? It was actually your wife who was talking about evangelism. And have you seen the comments on this short? Which one? The one about there's no such thing as evangelism. The um Oh, I actually didn't see that one. It's huge. I thought you were Oh, wow. It's

huge and and it's one of my favorite clips that we've ever published because you talk about this attack and extract mindset versus what does it actually look like to just talk to people about Jesus and Jesus will come meet them in their everyday life. So I think we should start on that evangelism [laughter] the evangelism center of the west. Well, I mean that's a that's a really important subject for me because actually and I think I talked about this the last time we were on when Donna and I my wife were on together and we

were she was telling the story about how we first met and she her her um boyfriend at the time brought her to our dorm room and introduced her to us and then he left because her boyfriend at the time and I had had this pretty intense conversation. about Jesus and we were in the wait room together and he was impacted by what I was saying and so he went and got her and brought her to our dorm room. Me and my roommate introduced Donna to both of us and then left. I don't know why but

providentially he left anyway. Um and so Donna happens to be Jewish and so which I didn't know. I had actually never met a Jewish person. And so when she when I first started talking to her, the very first thing I wanted to do was like evangelize her because that's just an awesome way to introduce yourself to a person, right? And so I told her I said um I told her that God loved her and had a wonderful plan for her life, which just made her stare at me like what is wrong with you to even

start anything like that? And then I said, "But you know, that's kind of good news, but the reality is you're sinful and separated um from God, and therefore you cannot know and understand his plan for your life." And she and basically, you know, that you're headed for destruction. And she said, "Are you are you telling me I'm going to hell?" And I said, "Yeah, let's just Yeah, I mean, we got to get right to that." And because this is good news and [laughter] Oh my god. and she said, she said, "Well, I'm Jewish and we're

the chosen people and you might need that and you can go to hell." And then she turned to leave. So, I thought probably this is not a good strategy of how to share the good news by beginning with that that methodology. But that's like how I was trained. That's how I was raised is you start with um you're separate. Like that's the whole message is you're you are living a life of separation. And um and so when I told her that and she turned around to leave, I mean I was I for some reason I

said, "Wait, wait, wait, wait." And um okay, she's Jewish. I started thinking like instead of just reciting the lines of what I knew to say without thinking, I I I asked God like, "Do you do you know how to share the gospel with a Jewish person? like how would you do that? And it I just could Make no connection between her Judaism, my Christianity, any of it, God. And so the whole thing was this fragmented. And so when she came back and we started talking about the Old Testament at that point, um her and I

connected and God connected into it. The the presentation I was giving was all like separation. Every part of it was creating greater separation. between me and God. God wasn't even involved in what I was saying to her. Um, so I was in effect separate from God. I had no no sense of my identity just as a human. I was a Christian crusader doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And then I didn't had no regard for who she was as a person. I just was going to launch into the and part of the training in

that style of evangelism. Don't let the person get talking about themselves because that's a distraction. Just keep them keep them stay on track. Don't don't let the enemy um cause distraction. Keep moving them through the points, you know, until you get to the big question and get that uh affirmation sign on the dotted line kind of thing. Then you can talk about other things. It was just so it's so impersonal and and the whole time what God wants is connection between all of us. You know, love God, love your neighbor in the same way that

you love yourself. And basically all we're doing is creating greater separation and conflict. So So then the whole evangelism thing to me Became um much more like what are we doing? What what is it that we're trying to do here? And basically I felt like you know we later came to call it attack and extract. The guy that mentored me said, "You guys are practicing an attack and extract methodology, which is you attack the belief structure of the person that you're talking to. You attack it until they can't defend it anymore and then you extract

them from their system of belief or their religion and bring them into yours." Um, and the way the way he my mentor told it to me, he's like, "If you if you have neighbors that move in next door to you and one of their kids is out in the yard and you jump over the fence, grab their kid, throw them on your side of the fence, jump back over the fence, change their name and make them dress like your family. That's it. That's what we're doing." And then the parent of that kid comes out in

his yard and his kid is gone. He's over in your yard using your name and dressing like you. He said that's what we call evangelis or more missions. And he said it's it's wrong and it's not what Jesus teaches. So that became a huge kind of platform for us is like what do we do what are we doing in the world and are we doing when we're sharing what's supposedly the best news a person will ever hear in their life? Why is it producing so much conflict and animosity between groups? How can that be? there

must be another way. And one of those ways, one way to think about it is when you're building connection with another person is you're building bridges of trust which can bear the weight of truth. That's what you're doing. You're trying to form a connection with people in order that you can then start, you know, presenting these pretty heavy statements of truth, but the connection holds the relationship together so that they can so that they can receive what you're saying. Yeah. Jesus messed everything up because you read him repeating Torah, love your neighbor, but then he

like what we tend to do with that is we're just like, well, it's great. They kick out everyone that we don't. Right. Love so that way it's easier to love our neighbors. That's right. And Jesus is like, actually, let's love your enemies. That's right. And then what do you do? Right. Just takes away all of your That's right. It's like if you're going to say, you know, if you're going to say, well, that I I'm an acquaintance with that person or, you know, I kind of know that person, then there's no huge requirement to love

them. I tell People this all the time, but if you name them as enemy, now you have no choice. You have to love them. So, I would stop calling people my enemy because those are all the people that you know how have to love and be willing to lay down your life for. Just say you just don't know them. Yeah, that's safer according to Jesus. Wow, that's amazing. Are there any um I'm [clears throat] assuming you guys had to learn this over years. Oh, yeah. Um could you may I'm just personally interested in this. I

don't know if you are, but could you take us through some of those like did you ever besides Donna, did you ever do it wrong to learn from it and like Yeah. Uh well I mean one time I think that was again it was as one of those situ the Lord's always communicating and and you know inviting us into guidance and correction if we just pay attention but we kind of get set in these patterns and we just won't we just we we don't even think about there's another way to do something. But so we

were actually in grad school and I was in in seminary and I was taking a class on evangelism which looking back was I wish I had that whole thing recorded. It was got to be it's the funniest. So, there's this evangelism expert teaching the class and it was very much the same thing. You know, it it was um if you died tonight and stood before God, he's going to ask you two questions. Remember that in the Bible? Yeah. Where Jesus tells people that. [laughter] Yeah. And you better have the right answers. So, out of fear

for your life, you should That's right. get the right answers. And so, that was what we were doing. But in the class, you got a grade. You got graded based on the number of times you went out and talked to people and the result. Like that was the grading system. And so um so I was hovering around a C in effort and coming to a conclusion with people and and it was coming towards the end of the semester. So I was like, I got to get going. I got to get going on this thing. So,

um, so we we were in the city and so there was a downtown YMCA. So, I would go down there all the time. And so, I get into this YMCA and I'm like, I gotta like I got to get a B. So, I got to find someone to talk to to get up to the B level. This is how utilitarian this becomes. It's not even there's no compassion. It's just like I got to I have to do this for my own good. Like how how far away is that from Paul saying, "Listen, if you speak

with the tongues of angels and men and you have all knowledge and you even sacrifice yourself to the flames, if you do this without love, it's not only a waste of time, it's an irritant to people." Like that was never taught in that evangelism class. That basic component of do you love anybody? Is this any of this based and sourced in love? So anyway, I'm in the I'm in the gym and I'm walking around and I'm just trying to get anyone to talk to me so I can ask Them if you died tonight. We and

no one was interested in thinking about if they died tonight. So nobody would talk to me and it's it's, you know, such a natural segue into the weight room. It's like, hey, if you died tonight, perfect. People love it. Yeah. And it makes them really open. It helps them with their PRs. [laughter] So, uh, if that barbell dropped on your neck right now, like that kind of you're trying to find your favorite person to talk to. What do you mean? They're looking out for you. Yeah. Or find some really elderly person, you know, [laughter] and

uh, so which they're at the Y, but so then nobody will talk to me and I'm desperate and so I get out in the parking lot and I get in my car and it's a, you know, it's in the city so you have it's paid parking and I I know that the parking lot attended to go out. I have to pay my ticket. So, I know like he's not going anywhere. So, [snorts] I pull up to the booth. I I Yeah, I've done this a bunch of time. I pull up to the booth and he's,

you know, he's looking at validating the ticket or whatever. And I said, "Hey, let me ask you a question. If you died tonight, you know, and you stood before God and I just launched into it." And I had even had a little uh like booklet to show him, you know, an illustration, which people also appreciate. Oh, no. That you have a illustration to show them. And he and so he just stares at me and he I just launch and I and he starts to interrupt me. I go, "Hang on a second. Just hang on, hang

on, cuz I got to get through this thing all the way to get to be um and so I I finally finish And he he had I hand him the book and he throws it at me and he said, "I hate people like you." And I said, "Why?" And he said, "You don't care one thing about me. You don't know if I believe in God, don't believe in God. you didn't you don't care one thing about what I really think. You just got to get through this presentation like you're a salesman. And he goes, I

hate people like you and I'm not going to talk to you. And I was so I mean it was so brokenhearted over that. And I pulled out and I just pulled over on on the side of the road and I just sat there and I said, "God, I am so sorry that I'm doing this this way because this is not how you would ever talk to a person." And yet this is how we're being trained to talk to people. And I'm sorry and I'm not going to do this again. And will you please show me

how to do this? Maybe the first time I ever ask God how to share my faith. And one thing he one thing I've learned is if you're going to talk about Christ to somebody, you should ask his permission to talk about him first. Wow. and not just assume that every human you have contact with here we go because he didn't do that so I would say this is an interesting prayer Lord I would love to talk to this person about you do I have your permission and invitation to do it because if he says yes

you have his authority let it go let it go [clears throat] after it but if you Don't keep your mouth shut that's what obedience is obedience isn't just assuming you know what to do every situation. Obedience is asking God what he wants you to know and what he wants you to do and doing that. Wow. That's answering some stuff. That'll change everything. Well, you become way more effective obviously, right? Because you're talking to people that God's asked you to talk to. Yeah. It it's like the prayer where [clears throat] where it says in John the

father needs knows what you need before you ask him. So the best prayer life you can ever have is Lord what do I need and then when he tells you ask him for that and then your prayer life ask whatever ask whatever you will and he'll give it to you because you're asking him for what he told you that you need. That's amazing. Um I'm trying to figure out where I want to go cuz can I ask something while you're figuring that out? Yeah, go for it. So, personally, Jamie, I I've been kind of sitting

with some the past couple days. I've I felt like um I was asking Jesus, "What what could I do to be more like you, and I felt like the sense that I got was look at my words, but when you read them, ask me why I said them." And I've never read the New Testament that way before, ever. And I'm reading this stuff and I'm like, "Why is he saying all these things?" And I'm noticing that Every time, at least in the first four chapters of John so far, what I can't get past is that

every time Jesus is speaking in a like almost somewhat like cryptic language and he's like talking to the Samaritan woman here, you haven't even asked about the water that I could give you if only you knew. It's like why wouldn't Jesus just be like, would you like to like he could speak more plainly? And what I kept seeing was like it was almost like Jesus kept going to people and going to their chin and like lifting it up and being like just go up up. Like he kept going like this to everybody and I was

like [groaning] like I've missed this. And when you speak on this it reminds me of that so much. And I'm like the biggest question I have for God and I guess the question I might as well ask you too is like you nodded [snorts] your ass your head yes when I said that is like what things do you do when it comes to that? How do you train that? cuz I wasn't when I was a kid, I was trained to evangelize the same way. And it was weird. It was just really strange. And it felt

like and it built this self-righteousness within me that now I'm having to deal with as an adult and people hate it. And I wonder why people didn't like me as a kid. And I understand now and I don't blame them. Yeah. But my question is, what does it look like to get yourself lifted up to be born of the spirit and live from the place of the spirit to do that? not just in evangelism, but you've worked on it in other areas of your life as well. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really great

question. [clears throat] I don't know if I would have thought of it that way, but it's a great question and it so it makes me I love what you know, God is The lifter of our heads. That's for sure. I think about I think I shared it on here before the time I was praying with the police officer that was in the shooting where he unintentionally shot and killed a young girl in a building. and he was so devastated by the whole affair that he became an alcoholic and all this he wasn't a believer. Um

and so when I went to eventually met with him and we were we I I said to him you know what happened happened and it's not it's a difficult situation and I don't know any way how to tell you what to do but what I do know is how to ask the one who does know. So, I will sit with you and ask with you because you don't believe this, but I will ask because I do believe. I'll ask God to tell you what he wants you to know and what he wants you to do.

Will you just sit next to me and do that? It's very different than you're sinful and separated from God, you know, very different invitation. He already knows all that. I mean, he feels it too. He feels the shame and all this. And so when I would when I would start to pray, you know, and I would say, "Lord, this this young man, you know, was involved in the shooting and he feels horrible and he doesn't know what to do. In your kindness, in your mercy, will you speak to him?" And he had his head down.

He had his head down every time I was with him. Just everything was downcast. And when I would start praying with him, he would jerk his head up like this. And after he did it three or four times, I said, "What?" I said, "What's what are you do? What's happening?" And he said, "I don't know. Every time you pray, I hear this voice in my head saying, "Lift your head up. Lift your head up." And I said, "That's God." And he said, "How do you know it?" I said, "Because he's the lifter of our heads."

So, in the conversation with the Samaritan woman, in the conversation with Nicodemus, when Jesus when g Jesus could literally tell them what to do, but the literalism is killing them already, right? And so what he want, it's really kind of like right brain, left brain. They're dying. They're dying in the left brain. Just that's it. This is it. That's all you know. You're this. And what he's doing is he he uses metaphorical allegorical language to move them up into the intuitive mind way up above. I'm a Samaritan. I'm a woman. I did the He's lifting

her head. He's lifting her mind really from the left brain to the right and he's taking her up as as Einstein said the intuitive mind is the master and the rational brain is the servant but we have made the servant the master Jesus is always moving the person into the intuitive mind the greater the the the mind that should oversee the rational and instruct the rational and so he uses this metaphorical language that forces them out of like I know what you're going to say I already know what you're going to say, "I already know

this stuff." It's like, "No, you don't. And I'm going to use this language that you don't understand to make you look at me and ask me a question." That's what he's doing. If you knew who I was, like that kind of statement. If you knew who I was, you would ask me to serve you. What What man would say that to her? Like, what man came and said, "I'm greater than any man you've ever met, and I don't want you to serve me. I came here to serve you. What a what a mindexpanding statement. How

can she not say what? How can she not feel invited into that conversation when that's the that's what he's saying to her? Or like to Nicodemus who's a literalist teacher who's acknowledging Jesus. Nicodemus isn't coming to find how to go to heaven when he dies. That's what we turn that into. He's a teacher. He's a great teacher who's coming to one who's a master teacher. And he says it, "Your teaching is from God. How is it that you're like this?" It's like a a police officer asking a master detective, "How in the world would I

ever be like you? How would I ever get to the level that you're at?" That's basically what Nicodemus is asking. How would I ever teach at the level you are at? Your teaching is from God. We know it. And Jesus because because Nicodemus can only think in the literal that's his training and we think literalism is the answer. Literalism is a trap. It's a elementary level beginning. And Jesus says this to him, well you have to be born again for That. And it just shatters his whole pedigogy and everything in one statement. And he he

tries to pull it back down in the literal like we always do. Like what do you mean you got to go back into your mother's room? And Jesus is like, and then he just keeps using the metaphor, the spirit is like the wind. And so, not only is he challenging his thinking, he's teaching him how to be a master teacher. He's doing it to him. This is the amazing thing about Jesus. He doesn't just go do these three things. He's like, "No, I will now incarnate a master teacher to you right now. And in the

process, you can teach at this level, but you will be transformed in the process. They're not separate things. So like when you go to teach leadership, you can teach leadership or you can lead them into being leaders, which is how Jesus would do it. So he's all he's always provoking the question and he uses a discourse style that doesn't permit them to figure out or to predict where he's going next. intentionally. He's intentionally saying, "And use generative language when you teach. Use symbol, use allegory, use you use metaphor. You guys don't do any of that

when you teach and stop judging people because God came to save the whole world, not just some of them." So, he even challenges his uh theological position in the process. I mean, it's Masterful what he's doing. And we just read that stuff like, "Oh, yeah, I know John 3. I know what it's about. This guy's he's afraid. He comes at night and he hears John 3:16." That's basically all we come out with that. And it's all this beauty. And so then when you go to talk to another person, you don't you would never say, if

you're a Christ follower, you would never say to a person, "You're sinful and separated from like this literal bam bam bam [clears throat] left brain. Here's the steps. Here's your problem. Here's the answer. Pray it now. We're done." Like that. So that's your right to do that. And and probably every time you go back into the scripture and ask again, why why did you say it this way? What do you want me to know about that? The levels of knowing are so they're they're endless. That's the mystery of of the gospel. It's never ending and

it's it's transformative to us. So I love that. Yeah. Wow. What keeps you grounded in that? Cuz it sounds if you go full on into the right brain that you have no rules anymore. Help us with [laughter] Kitty. He's like, "Yes." Yeah. No, it's No, it's it's I think it's like the um the master and the apprentice, right? The the the right brain is the master the and and it's instructing the left brain. We we let the left brain just do everything. That's the danger. And so I that's what I've been thinking a lot about

this lately and writing about it. It's like the Renaissance Transformed the world. The the um enlightenment crippled it. But it's not because it was bad. It's because it became the whole thing. Right? So the Renaissance is the whole thing and underneath it is the enlightenment managed by the Renaissance. Right? So that so that the intuitive mind is the contact connection with God and and the rational brain is okay here's what we're going to do as a result of this connection right because you can't just live in that you have so Jesus is intuitive rational intuitive

rational that's what he's doing all the time he's going up and down heart head heart head he's doing it all the time he never just goes to one or the other got it but the lead one when he says you know you have to love your enemy That's that's right brain like how and then the qu and then the then the left brain question is well who's my neighbor you know that's our question well who's my neighbor like let's bring this down where I can manage this thing and control this thing and then we lose

track of the lift up your head into the intuitive and look up to the hills where your where your rescue comes from. Yeah. So it's basically everything's both ends not either or anymore. It's kind of replaces. That's right. How do you think we How do you think we got here? Cuz well, you're the stories we're talking about, we've all read them, but we're reading them with biases that right someone invented and created, right? How did we Was it because of control? Was it because of fear? Was all of the all of the above? Like h

it seems like we're very far away from what Jesus was doing. Yeah. And I again I think this is why the scriptures are so incredible. It's I mean and this is what the war of worldviews is about. It's it's the lens through which you see the world. So I can you know we all know this. I can read the Bible and weaponize that. I can do anything I want with the Bible. I can empower myself to do anything that I want. And that's why that's what empires do. That's why you can have something like the

message of Jesus that's that's revolutionary turn into a kind of church that's nothing but empire, right? Because yeah, we have the message of Jesus, but how in the world do you control that and get people to do what you want with this whole love thing going on? So, we've got to like we've got to like because we're that scares us. We've got to get that to where we can control it and do it without being connected to God because it it it's like these these men asked me one time, you know, why don't like we

have all this financial resource in the US and we have all this amazing stuff and believers have it. How come nothing's really changing? And I said, well, what would happen if we took all of our money and just laid it before Jesus and said, "Give that anywhere that you want." we wouldn't do it because he'll give it to our enemies and we can't have that. He'll give it to our competitors and we can't have it. So, we have to separate. There's the separation. We have to separate from that kind of craziness um to well, if

we give it to them, they're going to kill us with it. That's like that's our fear. That's the fear that comes in. And it's always fear to me. always the belief that wow I ultimately I think God's not going to really be there in the end you know not unless I have all this set up then I can go to him because I've got it all set up but um he might cost me everything and I'm not going to do that and that's and that's feared so there's a worldview that says um that separation is

valid and important for my own preservation separation worldview and that's Eve in the garden. Eve's not afraid of snakes, you know. She's not afraid of the enemy. She's not afraid of Satan. What scares her is the belief suddenly the idea that somehow God has is withholding from her that he's given her a lot, but he's not given her what he could and and he's not going to. And so the minute she goes from believing, "Wow, he gave me more than enough or just enough." And then she starts to believe that, "Wow, God's not just the

giver of all good things." He does hold back on you. As soon as that idea comes into her mind, God has become less than who God is. He's not all loving and all caring and all compassionate. It's like He he may not show he may not give it to you. Why? because I'm not good enough, because I'm not as prayerful as. And then this that's the separation worldview that Moses is warning Israel against adopting because they've been in it for so long. And so that's to me is always it's always the fear that leads to

self-p protection and self-promotion. Once you once that's there, it's very difficult to love people that you perceive as a threat to you because God's not going to really protect you in the end. You have to do it. So, we have those verses, some men trust in horses and chariots, but I'll trust in God. And we're like, yeah, how many horses and chariots do we have? And we better build that up. Great. on a roll right now just repenting of everything that I've [laughter] ever done. I know it's it's it's really challenging but see again the

belief is is like um you know it's like it has to work on Monday morning right it can't just be all this yeah we should love our it has to like work it has either the connection worldview or the the what what the Bible is teaching what Christ is teaching either has to work on Monday morning in the darkest hours or go with self-p protection and self-promotion like of course you should. So it's not like either either what Jesus message is is the absolute best smartest thing we can do or it's not right. So it

can't be like yeah we believe part of it on Sunday but the rest of the time it doesn't work. It it must work. It has to work. So that's the challenge for us and I think for you know in our life um especially overseas when you're with people that the minute and even as a police officer you walk into a room and the minute they look at your uniform, your skin color, you have a cross on your neck, whatever, they hate you because because it's generations of separation that's been going on. And either there's a

way to overcome that without taking 1,400 more years or there's not. And I I'm convinced that there is a way to do it quite quickly. And it's it's the power of Christ. It's the power of the spirit. It's how truly deeply humans want to be connected and they long for it. They just don't believe it anymore or don't know how to do it. Yeah. That's really what it is. And so when you're talking, you know, when I'm a Christian and I walk into 1400 years of crusader history with a Muslim and like how long is

it going to take to undo all of that? It it it it How long did it take the Samaritan woman to overcome the generations of Samaritan Jewish hatred for one another? One one afternoon. Yeah. That's the encouragement of the Bible. One afternoon. Is that real? Is that possible? It is possible. Yeah, it is possible. And and so we just like, well, how do you know? You have to go out and try it in real life the way Jesus demonstrated it. That's the only way you'll ever know. Experiential to know and experience the truth is what

sets you free. Yeah. I was That's true. Yeah. I was meeting with someone yesterday about um a prison ministry thing and we were talking about it because that sometimes you think about if Jesus was here walking around where would he go right now? Yes. He'd probably go to the disenfranchised and the people who'd screwed their lives up and he'd probably be bothering them. They we wouldn't be where we think he would be. And so we were putting together some some ideas to help people who like they feel the shame of having messed their lives up

and don't know what to do. And at the very end he he was like as an educator how much time do you think it would take like a program three-year program or like teaching them and ministering to them whatever that means. And I was like I think it depends on how much Holy Spirit is in it. That's right. I think if there's not a lot of Holy Spirit, probably three years. If there's a lot of Holy Spirit, maybe an hour or two. Yes. A two-hour program. Um and he was he was like, I think that's

you can't argue with it. Like I think it's true. Yeah. And that's what you're saying, right? Right now. Why not? Why not? Um you know, and like we have so many experiences with this that can I give you an example? This is just just happened. Um, so we were we were um just in the Middle East and we were working with a lot of different people from a lot of different nations, lot you know, Muslim background, Christian background, atheistic background, all in one room. So the thing that always amazed me in the gospels once I

started like reading them more from like a connected sense of worldview than God's just in there separating the, you know, the goats from the sheep and that's all he's doing. more like, well, no, that's actually incorrect. How can Jesus Jesus can stand up in a group of people that where there's Romans and Gentiles and Jews and Samaritans and rich people and poor people and he can talk and everyone goes, "Wow, that makes a lot of sense." He's not like special message for the Gentiles, special me, right? He's just he's talking to them as human beings

and he's hitting all of them. Now, not all of them respond positively to it, but nobody walks away going, "That didn't apply to me." So why can't we do that? Why do we have to have just our group or why can't we speak to a really diverse room? So in so in the Middle East we had this very Diverse room um from all different religious and ethnic backgrounds, men and women, every imaginable. And so then what we wanted to demonstrate to the room is that God will speak to any one of you no matter who

you are, where you're from. And when he speaks to you, he will speak to you at a depth that you yourself have never known. So what we want to do is we're just going to ask volunteers or we'll pick people just to come up to the front and we're going to sit with you and walk you through that process in front of everyone. Now, and if that if that's not real, then that's going to be a hugely risky venture. Yeah. To do something like that. But we have a real God who really speaks, who really

loves people, and he doesn't care where you're from because he's the one that had you born in all the places that you're from. So, he's not against any of them. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry you were born there. We'll try and fix that. You know, um and so we we so different people came up and and you would think that the person sitting in front of 130 other people's self-conscious. It is so fascinating to watch what happens when God starts talking to a person. It's like there's nobody else there in the room. Yeah. And the person

the person, you know, facilitating cuz the the person facilitating is not speaking for God. They're just asking God questions for this person and asking this person just to listen. So one of the examples it was I mean we did it for two days or three days. One of the people that came forward was a woman. And when when you first meet this person, super exuberant, loves Jesus, this kind of person really like this is the person you want around all the time, super happy and joyous. And so she was one of the people that came

forward for prayer. And so the facilitator was leading her through and he just asked her, he said, and she's from a completely different culture, different country than the American facilitator. So they have nothing and and it was a male facilitator and a female. And so they have zero in common, nothing in common. And so he says to her, te what tell me like what's going on in your life now? Is there any negative emotion that you're kind of dealing with right now? And she says, "Well, you know, actually um there's been some problems in my

family lately." She, this woman's probably 40 years old. And she said, um, my, uh, we grew up in this part of the world and it was a lot of rebel action and militant uprisings, a lot of people being killed, and my father worked really hard to before he died to get get a piece of property for us in another location where we could be safe. And so she said, "Now, at this point in my life, though, that piece of property, my oldest brother has decided none of us are allowed to live there. And so we've

we've lost that. he's and we're in a big conflict in the family. She goes, I'm dealing with that right now in my life. So that sounds like okay, whatever. And and but just just like Jake said, like but what if you ask Jesus about that situation? Like she just matterof factly said it and she's how does it make you feel? Well, it makes me feel. I'm mad. I'm frustrated that my brother, you know, my dad died for this property and we we can't live on it and I'm I'm frustrated about it, but you know, I'm

learning to just be handle it and all this sort of rational and so the facilitator says to her, "Well, let's let's ask the Lord what he wants you to know about. What does he want you? Let's look up at him and ask him about this scenario cuz he wants to transform you, but also the situation." So in in I don't know 45 minutes this is what this is what happened. She So he says to her um what's the deeper feeling that you feel? Why do you feel mad? Well I feel like I feel like he's

not paying attention to me. My older brother's not paying attention to me. I'm like how does that make you feel? Well it makes me feel unseen or like yeah unseen. Not not valuable. And then he goes okay here we go. All right, Lord. When's the first time in her life she believed that she was unseen? Because your present circumstance is not the source of your pain ever. The present circumstance is just telling you what's already there that's been there a long time. And this is where Jesus wants to go, right, with the Samaritan woman. Not

only are you, not only is this scenario that you believe about yourself not true, it's never been true. and the counter to it will transform you and this whole place. So, let's get to that so that she can run up to the men, the Samaritan woman, and say, "Come see the one who knows everything about me." Because those men would have said, "Wow, what if he knew everything about you?" She's like, "He, no, he does know everything about me." And still, I'm coming up to see say you got to meet this one who came to

serve me. It just it just took the enemy's lies out at every level and made her fearless because she there is no condemnation. Mhm. And she's able to go up and forgive those men in the town, whoever they were. And not only forgive them, bring them walk them straight into meeting Christ herself. Remarkable in that short of time. And who did it? Our greatest enemy, a Jew. Like that everything. All of the enemies are gone. The hierarchy is gone. The male female is gone. All in this one conver transformational conversation. this is what we could

be doing. So this so this woman says she goes well wow and then the prayer is Lord would you take her to the first time in her life she started believing the lie that she's unworthy and unseen. So, this is two total strangers together in front of people from all over the world right there. And and she says, you know, I don't even know, I've only know this story because I've been told this story, but I know it's true in my heart. She said, when when I was little, an infant, We lived in the other

place and and there were these insurgents going around killing all the young men or recruiting them into these rebel armies. And they came to our town. And they came into our town on this one day and they came to our house. They were searching the town for young men. And my mom was holding me in her arms. And she knew they were coming. The neighbors were all saying, you know, flee. Everybody flee for your life. And her dad was my dad was out in the field. He wasn't there. So it was just my mom, me,

and my siblings. And so my mom knew they had to run as fast as they could to get away. And she couldn't carry me. So she laid me down in the yard and they all ran away. Oh my god. Left her in the on the ground and fled. And she and she starts to cry and she goes, "That's how that's how unimportant I was that my mom left me and ran away to protect themselves and my dad was somewhere in the field. the the rebels come into their yard and a rebel picks her up and

holds her. One of the inserts bad guys is holding her and then her dad comes out of the field and he says, "Is this your daughter?" And he and he says, "Yes." And he said they and they and they say, "We we're looking for some certain individuals. Do you know where they are?" And she said, "My father didn't know, but he knew he better tell him something cuz they were going to kill him, too." And and so the father's like, "Yeah, they're down there somewhere." And he and the rebels say, "You lead us to them."

And so they're Going walking with this father and the rebel is still holding her, carrying her the whole time. And they get to the place and the they realize very quickly, he doesn't know. He's just wasting time. And so they they're going to kill him. And they say they're the the insurgent, the rebel's holding her and looking in her eyes. And he says, he goes, "Do you know why we're not going to kill you? Because of this daughter. This daughter makes us unwilling to kill you." And so he hugs her and then hands her to

the father and she's crying. And um while she's telling the story out loud, she's crying. She's weeping. And so the they give her to her father and they leave. And and so her initial issue is I'm in conflict with my brother. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to resolve it, you know. And then when the rebel hands her back to her father and they leave, um the facilitator says, "Lord, what do you want her to know about that incident?" And he and Jesus says to her, "You are reconciliation itself. You brought

peace to those rebels. You saved your father and your family's life. you. They were holding reconciliation itself in their arms when they held you. You are not unseen. You are who was seen and you are the one that rescued everyone. Go and rescue your family now. And I mean, she goes, I know exactly what to do with my brother. And she was so overjoyed, not now that she can just go resolve the land situation, that she has now been transformed to believe that when she Walks into a situation, she in her identity is reconciliation showing

up in the room and she knows exactly what to do and she's known her whole life how to do it because God made her reconciliation even in the arms of insurgents. What a story. That's how long does how long would it take if you're doing that with people? 45 minutes to bring to bring peace in the world. Yeah, we have a question about that. If I can probe on that for a sec. Are you good, Jake? You've done this with so many people, but have you ever had someone who hears what God says about them

and then they don't receive it? Yes. Isn't that part of the package? Like agree with God? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. How do you deal with that? You It's It's They ha that's the hardest thing for a person is that they have to receive from God. They You have to be willing to receive from God. And you can't make a person receive. They have to say yes. It's it's it's like you know we had an incident where a person came into a church we were at and that he was wandering around the children's ministry and the

the offduty cops Noticed it right away brought him out and we're at questioning him cuz he he didn't have anybody at the church and then they came and got me and said would you talk to this guy because like he's like you know we're getting a weird feeling from him. So, I go up to the guy and I put my hand on his shoulder cuz he's facing another guy. And as soon as I touch him, I feel like, "Oh, oh, I feel ter I It's this feeling I know really well of like just this bad

news." And so I say to the guy, "Come walk over here with me." And he walks over and um I said to him, "Um, do you do you believe that do you hear voices inside of you? Like are you hearing voices?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, 'Do you know that there's something inside of you other than you? And he said, 'Yeah, there's two others than me. And I said, ' Okay, here, let's sit down right here. And I said, okay, in the name of Jesus, I silence you in the name of Jesus. Just

calm because we're right in front of the church. It's on a Sunday. People are just going in and out. We're just sitting here. Doesn't have to be dramatic. You're in charge. You're the kingdom. Yeah. And I said, I'm not talking to you. You be quiet in the name of Jesus. I'm not going to talk to you. You be silent. You stay still. And I say to the guy, "Do you understand what's going on inside of you?" And he said, 'Yes, I do. And I said, ' Okay, so this is demonic. He said, 'I know.' And

I said, 'Okay, so and then another guy walks up to me who who's worked with us. And he knew immediately what was happening. He sits down next to me. And I said, this is my friend here. He knows he knows what's going on here. I said, okay, we the three of us can go right in that little room right there and we can end this forever. We can end it forever. We It'll take us 5 minutes to end this forever for you and you will be free of this. But you must replace it with Christ.

You must invite Christ in to fill the empty space once we make the space empty. And if you do not, it will be worse than anything you've ever experienced. So, we need you to tell us now that you're willing to receive whatever Christ wants to do in you uh once we walk through this process. And he said, "I can't do it. So what you do in that situation is you bless them and you walk away just like Jesus said to the rich young ruler. Like he said, "I can't do it." And Jesus said, "Well," and

they and they walk away. So we So we had to usher him off the property, you know, with the police because he said, "I I refuse Christ." So we Yeah. You have people make that dangerous decision or they re God's asking them to forgive someone and they say I won't and and so Jesus said if they won't receive your peace you walk away and you it's sad and it's tragic and you pray like crazy but yeah it's not it's I mean it's very few time very few times that that happens but it can happen. Yes.

And it's dangerous to do that pe I just want to say to everyone to to not receive from Christ. It's it's Just it you miss all the things that Christ wants to bring into your life and it's dangerous to refuse that. Yeah. I'm going to switch gears in a sec, but if I don't want to switch gears without if you have questions on on this topic. I do. it it's [clears throat] it's an aside to it. But um one of the things I've noticed, Jamie, is that you said like the way that you talk about

the father and Jesus is not a way that I heard growing up. It's not it's like you made it you made it very clear. You were like with that girl, it wasn't an accident that she got put in the Middle East. It's not like well God meant for her to be born in America and he's going to fix the problem he's going to get. I think in at least in Western Christianity, maybe that's just the impression that I got. But that's my natural first impression of when I hear that like I would never say it

out loud, but I would think it and I would just be like, "Yeah, that's dumb." But there's something about the father's heart and the character of Jesus. Um I would just be curious if you could share some of the things that you've had to maybe or even some stories that have represented how you've had to had to rewire the way that you see God, rewire the way that you see Jesus. Um, I think for me at least coming out of the background that I had was more very self-righteous. And so the way that I see

God is like, well, no, he punishes you and he does this. It's it's not to say that he doesn't, but it's to say that there is more to him than just it's like saying Taylor is Only ever intense, but we never acknowledge the other parts of Taylor that are kind. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Wait, there is there is a I don't want to say balance, but there's a a representation. that's that I think would be helpful to get your perspective on before we keep going. Yeah, that's I mean that's that's a great question too. It's

like so for me what you know I I grew up and you know the training is um Jesus is God. Jesus is God. Jesus is God. And you're like okay I don't know what that means but I'm going to ascent to it because that's what you do. Like yeah I don't you know submit to authority. Yeah. You just like never really think about is how do you understand that? But yeah he's Jesus is God. We get it. He's divine. Um, and that's so you grew up with that. What you never hear is that God is

Jesus, which is a very different idea. It's it's it's fascinating that Jesus is God. But the fact that God is Jesus is that's a heavy one to believe because that means that well, it's what the scripture says. Jesus is the exact representation of the invisible God. So if you want to know what God is like, this is our only option to understand God. Not the Old Testament. Jesus. It doesn't say the Old Testament is the exact representation of the invisible God. It says Jesus is the exact representation of the invisible God. So that means everything

has to submit to Your view of Christ as God. All scripture, everything you believe about anything has to bow the knee to Christ [snorts] as God. and God as Christ like that. And so the way you I mean there's lots of ways we had to learn that lesson. One when we were working in the Middle East and one of the girls that worked with us came to me and she said, "Hey, I've been staying with this family because a lot of them lived with families to immerse themselves in Arabic." And she lived with this family

that had uh five brothers and some sisters. and she said, "There's one brother in this family who um is clearly on some kind of track with God. Like they're all Muslims. However, he's he's got some kind of unique connection with God. And I I want you to meet him." So I go to meet him. He was 20 21 or 22 at the time. He was uh he he was Palestinian. And so I go to meet with him and he is he's just like we say they have the kingdom in their eyes. It's just a kind

of way people act. You're like, "Wow, they really look like" And so I asked him, um, I said, "What have you ever had any kind of experience with God that's, you know, sort of sacred to you?" And he said, "Well," he said, "I I don't really ever tell anyone about this, but I have." And I said, "Can do you mind telling me?" And he said, 'Well, when I was 14 or something, I I had this skin disease and Very devout in the Quran, reading the Quran all the time, memorizing the Quran all the time, and

he was he's a very good student, and he was studying the Quran one night, listening, so interesting how God does this to a Christian Arabic pastor from Cyprus on the radio. He's listening to this guy and the guy, the pastor on the radio says, "Jesus is the great healer." Well, in the Quran, he's also the healer. So, the young Muslim guy's like, "Yeah, I know. I affirmed that. I didn't know the Bible said that, but yeah, he is." And so, he is the healer. And then the guy on the radio said, "So, if you pray

and ask Jesus to heal, he's the God who heals." And the Muslim guy had never, he is the healer, but I didn't know we could ask him to heal us. So, just that little thing. And so he that night in his in his evening prayers as a Muslim, he invites Jesus to be who he says he is in the Quran, the healer. Like if you are the healer, I've never thought to ask you, but would you ask would you heal me? Uh and Jesus is also called the rescuer in the Quran. And so the next

morning he wakes up and he's completely healed. What he doesn't know is how to tell anyone about it because he's afraid of the view of Jesus. He knew that Jesus was the one who healed him. That Jesus somehow is so connected to God that like It was like asking God to do it. Like and so cuz they're monotheist, you know, and so he only tells his five best friends what happened and they tell him do not tell anyone that Jesus did this. So when people would because they could see he was healed, he would say,

"Yeah, God healed me. God healed me." Is he is he right? Yes, he's exactly right. God did heal him, right? But it was the representation was the incarn incarnation of Christ. And so he tells me that story. And I and he's never told anyone in his life that that happened. They just all know he's healed by God. Glory to God. And so he tells me that and I said, "Why are you afraid to tell anyone that Jesus did it?" He said because I don't want to be a Christian and the Christians will try and make

me a Christian if I tell the story and I don't want to lose my family but my family won't doesn't understand Jesus the way I now do and it'll just cause all this turmoil and wreck my family and I he said it's just better for me to keep it private. And I said okay let me ask you a question. when you're in bed laying in bed at night and you and you're just as open as you can be with God, what do you call yourself in your heart of hearts? What do you call yourself? And

he said, "Yeah, Muslim." And I said, "Okay, Muslim." Distinct from Islamic. He's not calling himself Islamic. It's like saying, "I'm a Christ follower, not a Baptist." It's like that that separation. That's what he's saying. I'm Muslim. Um and and I said, "Okay, why are you Muslim?" "Because my Father is Muslim and my grandfather and this is our tribe." And I said, "Okay, who had you born into that tribe? Did Satan?" Because a lot of us think Satan did, [laughter] but he can't. He said, he goes, "No, yeah, I know. God had me born in." I

said, "Did he make a mistake?" Right? Did he make a mistake? And I told him, I said, "A lot of Christians think that God was looking that way and a Muslim was born." And now he looks back and goes, "Oh no, another one." And now the Christians got to go fix that cuz um and get him out, attack and extract him and get him on the right team cuz God had another 1.7 billion born. And and I and I said and he said, "No, God made me. I'm glory to God." And I said, "Okay, so

if God made you, if he were born into a Muslim family, you I mean, you love your family. What makes you think that God would want you to not be in that family or not be of the people that he had you born among?" And he goes, "I don't know." And I said, "Can I show you something in the Bible? Do you mind if I show you something in the in J?" And he says, "Okay." So I show him 1 Corinthians chapter 7. 1 Corinthians chapter 7 is Paul talking about um where the where in

Corinth, you know, if a believing spouse had an Unbelieving spouse, they were leaving them to go find a believer. And Paul's like, "Don't do that. Don't that's a mistake. Don't leave." And he said, he said, "This is the rule I laid down in all the churches." And if you quiz people on what what's the rule Paul laid down in all churches, this is the one he laid down. Let each person remain in the place where they were when God called them. That's what he let each person remain in the place where they were when God

called them. If you were circumcised, don't remove the marks of circumcision. If you weren't circumcised, don't get circumcised. Remain in the place where you were when God called. If you were a slave, he even says it doesn't mean you're automatically free, right? You're free in Christ. And and so he talks about marriage. He talks he talks about marriage. He talks about religious um markings. He talks about social stations. And he's saying stay let each person remain in the place where they were when God saved you. Why? For the sake of your brethren. Right? So I

said, "So he read that verse and he was like, "Oh my gosh." He I He said, "Do I can I embrace Jesus as God and God as Christ and remain among my people?" And I'm like, "I think that's the goal because what if you come join us?" And then we read the story of the demoniac Being healed and wanting to get in the boat with Jesus to go to the Jewish side and Jesus is like, "We don't need any Gentiles over there." I said, 'We don't m Muslim followers of Jesus need to stay with Muslims.

You do not need to come to our church. Trust me, that is not going to that's not going to help you or me. You need to stay with your people and tell them the great things God has done in your life and the mercy he's shown you. Just like this this guy that they threw Jesus out, but Jesus is like, "Too late. I'm leaving this guy. I don't have to be here. This guy's here and he can do what even I'm not allowed to do here." Can you imagine that? How long was that encounter? And

so, so I said, "The beautiful thing about you is you're in your family and you know Christ and he's the healer and the rescuer and you even know him at a deeper level than that. You even recognize that he is in fact God and that God is in Christ." And I said, "Give that message to them as one of their own, not as some converted attack and extracted guy yelling back across the fence at him." Mhm. saying, "Come over into this yard now. I'm sorry. I was born in your family. I'm in this family now."

And so that day, the next day we were talking. The next day, he brought all five of his friends to our house. They were all like they were one was a doctor. They were all like grown now. They brought all five to our house. And we sat in a circle and he he opened up the Quran to [snorts] and he read sections of the Quran, all all sections about Jesus, how he was born of a virgin, how he died and rose again in the Quran. And he would read it and then they would all sing

that passage together. And he told them about his faith in Christ. And all five of them embraced Jesus sitting in a circle like that. And that was the beginning of the movement in that city was him. Now, if he would have converted out, we would he we would have got him and lost all of that. We would have made some advertising campaigns and put him in front of people and used his story to try to attack. Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. And the enemy wins. We lose. The enemy loses one, but he keeps the rest. Yeah. in

God's plan, it's like, let's get them all. Let's let's stay connected. Let's don't separate from them. Let's get them all. And so that's so that's why Jesus, when he's talking to the Samaritan woman, is quoting Samaritan literature to her right at the beginning. And that's how she knows, okay, he's not here to badmouth us because he's quoting our book, which is considered corrupt and evil by Jewish orthodoxy. And then Paul does it on Mars Hill when he quotes poems to Zeus. Which can you imagine if I stood up in a church and read the poems

to Zeus in a church and go, "This is about God. [laughter] They wouldn't tolerate it." But that's exactly what he's doing because he knows this is I'm building a bridge of trust that can bear the weight of truth. And he goes, "You know that unknown god that you know he's the one that gives you." And they're like, "Yeah, we know that. We know that writing. That's this one. It's this one and there. And so the bridge they can cross that bridge into the truth of it's it's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, right? But

we're not asking you to be Jews. We're asking you to be Greeks that worship the same God as the Jewish believers do. So connects them all together. Like what you're addressing is is such on a deep level in terms of what I've struggled with. Taylor knows this very well that I struggle with fixing and trying to control things, right? It's like a big weakness of mine. And so, you're addressing this at a very very deep level cuz sometimes I'll try to do it what sounds like a holy reason. And I don't I don't really trust

God. But then I know there's also like a responsibility for me to do something like I feel like I have a duty. I don't always don't know how to balance that though. That can be tough. That's all the way back to Lord. What do you want me to know? What do you want me to do? Look, lift up, lift up your eyes. What do you want me to do in this situation? How do you want me to think about this situation? Yeah. And then, you know, it's it's one thing I observe where we talk about

Jesus is the exact representation of the invisible God is when you listen to like a Christian or someone talk about what they're going to do, like we're going to take these steps and these actions, then ask them, okay, where is Christ in that? Because if they're going to if they're going to move into a separation worldview as a Christian, which we do all the time, they have to drop Christ out. And they will. And you'll notice the absence of Jesus in anything that they're in any way that they're referring to God and what they're getting

ready to do. They have to take Christ out. But if you take Christ out, you can't split the Trinity. So if you take him out, you're taking the whole thing out. like, well, God, yeah, but hold on. Hold on. Where's Christ in this? Where is Christ going? Yeah, this is a great idea. If he's not in it, the end result of this is going to be conflict and separation. Unavoidable. And so, but we've developed a whole way of talking about God without Christ involved in it. Pay attention when you hear Christian leaders talking. Any leaders,

Christ is somewhere over there. And they'll even say it. They think, "Yeah, I [snorts] know we're supposed to do this, but and or he's being misrepresented." Yes. So, he's there in linguistic function, but not in [clears throat] uh the message or the substance. So, so the so so when you take the prince of peace out of a situation, then you're you're not going to have you'll never have peace. You won't have peace. You'll never have peace in a situation. So my you want to speed up if you want to resolve conflict anywhere in the world

right now. There is no conflict we're in anywhere in the world right now that humans can't sit down with Christ as the model and resolve it. None. Not a single one. No matter how many centuries it's been going on, it can end. And our problem is we don't believe it. We don't believe it. So we because we're trained this way, we continually resort back to well what can we do in our own power to fix this thing or get rid of the problem which is usually a person just get rid of that person and this

thing will be fine. Never worked it'll never I mean it doesn't it's it's like we always say it's the Jesus isn't preaching Christianity he's not preaching biblical truth he's only talking about what's true and what's not true. That's all he ever talks about. Just is this true or not true? Does empire work? It does not work. That's true. Empire does not work. It's never worked. It'll never work. That's true. But we keep pretending like it will. And that's false. It's not Christian or non-Christian. It's just like it doesn't work. It destroys people. It falls apart

every time. And we're going to keep every every revolution that occurs to change the system ends up with the same old system every time. Even if it has good intent, French Revolution, American Revolution, they have great like we can't have tyranny, we can't have, you know, taxation without representation. Flip it and it comes back again. Just a different group in charge, whoever's in charge, right? And so Jesus isn't trying to he's bringing an entirely different paradigm in his revolution. Well, that that's perfect because I want to go into paradigms and worldviews if you're comfortable with

that. Sorry, did I interrupt you? I didn't mean to. Okay. Can we go to the worldview discussion because this is a rich um if you when you explain how it it's the lens, right? The lens changes everything. If you if you have a dirty lens, a lens with the wrong prescription, I mean, it perverts and pollutes everything you see. And but how did if we can go back to maybe the beginning and take the scenic route through this cuz you were um you dealt with, you know, rejection and abandonment early on like we all do.

You probably dealt with fear and scarcity early on like we all do. Yes. Become a police officer. you saw the worst of probably um civilizational issues. At what point did you start thinking maybe maybe our paradigm is wrong? How how we've set up this system is wrong? I kind of want to go back to the beginning because that's instructive for me. Yeah. So we had we had been in the the Middle East for a while and we were working and you know we were working in [snorts] very hostile groups not only the group itself was

hostile but just hostility between different populations of people just uh when you live in the Middle East es especially in certain countries there's no place where anyone's getting along. There's nowhere. It's it's incredible. The Muslim groups are divided among themselves, but they're united against the Christian groups. The Christian groups are divided among themselves, but they're united against the Muslim. And it's just and the Jewish groups all fight among the 14 different sects of Judaism, but they're united against the Christians and the Muslims. It's just like this constant. And one of the guys that we worked

with over there, he said, "When you live in this region, it takes 85% of your energy just to deal with the constant level of conflict and hatred among people. It is so great." Um, so when people go on a tour through the Middle East and like it's the most beautiful, yeah, you haven't lived there, live there. Stand at a bus stop in that place and listen To the hostility level between all of the different groups. Um, and it's just constant separation. So, we were working at the identity level with people. Um, who does God say

you are? Who does God say your neighbor is? And it was hugely transformative to them. Hugely. And, um, watching watching Muslims transformed by Christ and then because of the transformation in them in Christ, they would receive from Israelis. It's really interesting. and Israelis transformed who then could receive from Muslims. It just the connection was so deep and so great. But the way we were thinking about it was well now that person doesn't see their identity as Palestinian or Muslim or Israeli or Jewish but deeper than that. And so they could they could stop using those

as separation barriers but instead they're like my identity can relate to your identity in Christ. And we see the value and that was beautiful. But it wouldn't it like it wouldn't last. It would they they'd get it. They would start to move in it. We saw amazing things happen. But then it would start to falter and then kind of go back to the old way. And we could not figure it out. Like we knew this part was right. We were seeing it in scripture. We were practicing it in ourselves in people. Um but ultimately even

for us uh even for our work there even we got kicked out in the end. And so we were back in the states and I was really asking the Lord like what we're there's something that we're missing. And I Think this is important for people when when something doesn't work, don't keep trying to make it work. Like and don't just quit. Like the the third way is like kind of Jake asked earlier. It's like God, we're looking up to you. What do you want us to know? What do you want us to do in this

situation? Because we don't know everything. um this has worked to this point, but there seems to be a place where it doesn't work. So, we're gonna we're going to ask you for wisdom and we're going to pursue you and we're going to knock and we're going to seek and we're going to ask and and this is where the I think the Lord loves this when we do this. I think he's frustrated. We're just like we got it. We'll let you know. Um and so back into really again we were in the rational mind. We knew

like, okay, we can do this and we knew this practice and all of that. But now at this lost point, it was back up way up in the intuitive contemplative mind going, what's what are we missing? There's something not right here. And it took months of and I'm say this to to Christians especially, read books outside of what you already know. Like go out into what you don't know and don't understand. Don't be afraid of it. And so I started reading all kinds of stuff. Um, we experimented with, you know, that's not a good word.

We we tried stuff with different people. We weren't afraid to fail. We just tried and fasted and read scripture again and read books on anthropology and but it was I was reading economics, reading an economic Theory and um and I was listening to a podcast and this is just how it happens. This is the Eureka process. You're you're you're asking questions, you're looking for answers, you're you're in this desert of not figuring it out. And you just and then one day the Lord just for whatever reason, boom, there it is. And I was driving listening

to a podcast and an economist was speaking and he said something about the wound of separation that it was an economic he was talking about economics and he called it the wound of separateness and I was like boom that's it. It's something about that and it's it's has economics is the way to think about it. And so then I I started reading deep into economic theory and I read this really long and torturous book on economics through the scriptures through the church fathers into the modern age. And I just never thought of the Bible as

being a book about economics. But economics being not money but the distribution of all things, right? The management of all things. And in scripture, it's talked about in Ephesians, Paul talks about it three times in Ephesians, and it's oos nomos. Um, and it's the God God dispenses gifts into the world and we dispense them out into the world. And in scripture, oosmos is never translated. economics is translated stewardship or dispensation unfortunately. So we come up with these stewardship ideas and this idea of of dispensing but we don't think of it broadly as economics. And so

the more I read into that and the more I prayed about it and then back into the word then we started to see oh this is this is much more about not so much about individual identity as much as the lens through which we're looking at the whole thing. And so once once uh and worldview affects what you think about yourself, what you think about other people, it affects how you think about everything, everything you read. So then we started in Genesis and started reading okay from the very beginning of scripture. How do we know

how to read scripture [laughter] like like so what's the lens that I'm actually reading the Bible? And so when we went back and started reading Genesis again um which I mean how we've grew up in the story of Genesis and I started asking the question okay don't read Genesis like it's the first book of the Bible like God had a list of how he was going to tell this story and Genesis is the first part and you know that's something we've assembled that's a product that we've made. Genesis is Moses telling Israelites who probably asked

Him where have we come from and where are we going and his answer to that is in the beginning like he's saying not at the beginning of time he's saying in the first cause of things in the beginning this is the situation and then when you start to read that as what he here's what we came from here's what's happened and here's where we're going. I I don't know. I read Genesis in a completely different way. And as I tell people all the time, it is way more beautiful and believable. This way makes way more

sense. And you can do it on Monday morning. It makes a huge difference what you think about Genesis on Monday morning if you don't think it's a science project that you're trying to defend that you really can't. And it's and so we I we started to see it right at the beginning. The whole point of Genesis is Moses telling the story of the world was made to be in connection and viewed through a lens of connection and that the breaking point was when it the the connection view was abandoned for a view of the world

that it's all about separation which makes sense then because sin is the idea of separation from God. the falling, the short, the missing the mark, the deeper uh uh Greek idea of sin is to move into non-being. That's what it means, harmonia, to to to lose the form of who you really are. So, there's the identity piece, but there's a Descent into it. And to begin the descent into non-being, the first act is separation. The first act is to separate from God, separate from yourself, and separate from other people. And you descend into non-being. And

that descent into non-being leads to all kinds of behavioral tragedy. And then unfortunately we all just end up in the behavioral tragedy and never see where did we come from originally. And so that's how we started reading it. Wow. What if what if connection is everything and separation is the lie we're in. Well well then why do all of us believe the lie so deeply? What are the what about the lie is so appealing? because it's incredibly appealing. And as they say, it's easier to believe a lie than to believe the truth. It's easier to

believe the lie about yourself that you're no good, not enough, that the world hates you, that you're going to die, that it's easier to believe that because it doesn't take any faith to believe that. But to believe that God is with you in every situation, no matter the flood or the fire, and he's always with you and he'll never separate from you. very hard to believe that in this world, especially in this where the whole world operates on the separation worldview. So then when you go back to scripture, you're not looking for how do we

maintain connection or reestablish connection. It's like how do we survive on the winning team? That's what you come away with. It's like I'm going to read this book to see what happens to the bad people and what happens to the good people and how do I get with the good team, the winning team. And the rest of the people, I don't I I can't care about them. Like they're they cause Trouble. like it, you know, and so I hope God separates the goats out cuz I'm not going to be one of them and burn them,

kill them, you know, whatever. And so then you and then you see this whole system that develops out of it from starting with, you know, the sons of of uh the descendants of Noah onward with cities and weapons and all these kinds of things that start to happen. But but mainly it's the story of Moses helping the people in the wilderness move from a empire worldview which is the only thing they knew and it's the thing that got them into slavery in the first place is the empire separation worldview. And he's preparing them over this

time in the desert in the wilderness. The wilderness is always a symbol of um order, disorder, reorder, weaning them away from all the temptations and seductions of empire like Jesus going out when he fasted and faced the enemy. same idea into the connected worldview so that when Israel became a nation, they would become a model to the rest of the world of what a connected worldview looks like if it if the nation believed it, which means they would be anti-mpire. And Israel was meant to be a nation that didn't rule the world but influence the

world. So the question, the beautiful challenge is can I influence the world without being seduced into trying to rule the world? And I most of us don't believe that's possible. I have two questions that I want to spend some time here if that's okay. And that's what your book is about, right? You kind of go into this in a deep Yes. Um introspective, philosophical and historical lens. Um, I love that you said it was economics that slipped your lens. Yeah. I did a deep study on how um, so like Christianity is almost like economic alternative

use. Yes. And economics is a study of scarcity. Right. Exactly. And so Eve fell prey to scarcity. I think you were saying that earlier. That's right. It's that she didn't feel like she had all of what she wanted. That's right. And then you get to the New Testament and it's really alternative use which is like you can God withholds no good thing but you're living in such a way that you're not able to receive that. That's it's back to receiving. Right. That's right. Yes. Um I don't know if you have any more thoughts you want

to give from the book on that worldview. Well, I'll just I want to say one thing just talking about The economic like how much that affects us, you know, because for us economics is all about money ba really basically how we think about it. And so I was I got a newsletter from uh some company and they were talking about you know I don't know what they they were venture capitalists or some group like that but they were Christian and they were very outspoken about being Christian and um talking about you know how much money

they made and this kind of thing. And so I and I I got I don't know how I got it but I got the email and so I wrote back to the person and and I said I'm curious as believers in the industry that you're in. How do you deal with just empire, the allure of empire and and um you know scarcity and all of these things? How do you how do you deal with them? How are you different than a non-Christian successful nice people company? And the person didn't really know how to respond to

that. And so I said, "So for like how are you different than if I come into your company and you you're the believers and these guys aren't believers, but you both make the same amount of money in the exact same system." Um, how are you different? And his he said something like, "Well, we're nicer, you know, people people," which is kind of a moral judgment. Uh, and so I pressed him on it even more and he said, "Well, listen, when you when we have to deal in the reality of scarcity in our world, that's what

I want. That's what I was waiting for was that statement." And I I said back to him, you know, scarcity doesn't exist in the real world. It doesn't exist. Men men make screarcity. It doesn't exist. We manufacture scarcity. And so the which to say than to say that the lie of scarcity is a reality is the ultimate death because now we're saying the lie is a reality and that's exactly what Eve was doing. She listened to a lie but she took it in as a reality and so then the lie becomes what's true. M once

the lie becomes a reality that you can't escape, even the believers will submit to it and and work under it. So how many lies have we made into reality, but they do actually not exist in truth? Do you still wrestle with this or did you put this to bed completely? Can you teach us as put it to bed? Yes. Um, yeah, that's why like I mean I I joke about I I listened to some podcasts where a person said it's good for everyone to be totally bankrupt and broke for a certain amount of time in

their life so they will get past the fear of that. Though in a way I mean that's really the only way I think you Have to uh in my book I talk a lot about Moses's journey and Elijah's journey because they're the ones at the mount of trans transfiguration. And I want to know why it's those two talking to Jesus about his exodus or his departure. And I so I talk about both their journeys and they have to go through scarcity first. They have to get past the fear of scarcity before they can ascend. So

it's the the process I talk about life is incarnation then comes transfiguration then crucifixion then resurrection and ascension. So the transfiguration in our life comes before the death because we have to get a taste of the reality of the glory before we can really face the death of okay I'm not going to be afraid of scarcity anymore. Why? Because I've tasted what's true. I've been on that mountain and I can't even talk about it yet. But I know what it's like to be in the presence of God. Now I can die to the rest of

this nonsense. Then comes the resurrection and the ascension in life. It's like that. And so I wrestle with it. But Donna and I have lived in a foreign country with no money and no access to any money with kids, three kids. And there is nothing to there is nobody to call. There is nowhere to go. We didn't have the internet and any of that stuff. And we were absolutely broke because the bank kept embezzling all the money wired to us. And when they do that and you go to the bank and they're like, "No, we

we don't know where it is." You have no recourse. You can't buy a plane ticket to get out of that place. You're in it And there's no way out. And in the same situation, you're going to prison for 10 years in that if you believe in scarcity, you're going to die there. I mean, you literally you're going to die. And and so it's like the Lord's he doesn't like make stuff like that happen, but when it does happen, he it's like it back to Jake what you said. It's like we can we can die of

anxiety here. We can, you know, curse God and all of that. Or we can lift up our heads and say, "What do you want us to know? What do you want us to do?" And him saying like he said to Elijah, "I can send you to another country among the Gentiles and feed you with water and birds. And if you don't believe that I can do that, we can't go any further because how are you going to ever tell another person to trust God when you've never done it?" Dang. Right. And so that's the beauty

of the wilderness, but we're terrified of it. So Donna and I have like we've had to start at zero a lot of different times in our life, but it's like how he turns the page. And so when we go back to zero, I mean zero in everything. Like we're in our 50s living in a, you know, a little dinky efficiency above a garage. And it's like we're 19 again. And I look at her like, here we go again. It's like we're going to do this again, but we're not afraid. Like it's actually we can actually

enjoy it. There's a kind of joy in it because it's so simple and there's just nothing. And so and then he starts to build again. And like but only this time you're at a much higher level. You're not starting at zero again. You're starting at zero financially, but you're at a way higher level of relationship and connection. So it's different. And it's and so then it then it's like the enemy has lost the power to threaten you with zero cuz there's no such thing. It doesn't exist. And that reality is not a reality. There's no

such thing as zero. Yeah. There's I have only touched that a few times like what you're talking about where I'll get it or um you know how paradigms work like sometimes [clears throat] they're sticklers. They give them [laughter] a little paradigm grab hold of them. Yeah. So I'm like touching two at the same time and I can't get them to replace and so I'll live in the reality of what you're saying for like two hours. Yeah. And it's the most glorious two hours that I've ever experienced. And I'm just like, God's got it. And I

am not afraid of anything. And I don't care. And this is so like I'm in heaven. And then I go to sleep and something pulls back the old paradigm and I wake up the next day and I sort of forget how to get back to that part. What is how do we hang on to if people are listening to this just by you talking they can sort of oh yeah I can see it that way but then they're going to go like to church. [laughter] Oh no. And if you if you tithe there's no scarcity

but if you don't there's and all of a sudden this like old system starts to replace right how how do you hang on to it? Well, because it's because it's it's because, you know, it's it's been drilled into us our whole life. Everywhere we go, anywhere in the world, that system is drilled in. It's what the whole world believes. It's funny how people talk about, well, they're being deceived. And like, you know, the whole world is deceived. It's not like going to happen one day. We're in it. We live in it all the time. You

just look at how we do everything [snorts] is all built on scarcity. and they have something that we want and we're going to go get it or you know all of that's always been the way the world works. Um, but I think it's like there's a there's a there's a TED talk, a famous TED talk by a a a neurologist woman, I can't remember her name, and she has a stroke and you know, and she has a stroke and she has a stroke in the left brain and she knows it and and so her right

brain is totally in control of every how she thinks about everything. So she can't get her body to dial the phone, but she doesn't [laughter] care. Yep. She doesn't care because she's so happy. Y um and it's like that it's getting to that place where um that intuitive mind, the mind of Christ is in charge. Wow. It doesn't it doesn't separate itself from the rational we got to do this, we need to pay these bills. Doesn't separate it. But that part doesn't run the show. Yeah. Like the number one need today is we got to

figure out how to pay these bills. That's in charge. It's not in charge. Is that something that needs to be done? Yes, it is something that needs to be done. But oh, the joy of the whole thing, the joy, the the joy of the journey, the joy of the how's God going to do this? The joy of the joy of the joy of if you work hard, you're going to be okay. We were we were went down to speak to this group in in I forget where it was, but it was a ministry that didn't

they didn't work with like um unsheltered people or homeless people. They worked with people that just were indigent and they would just take them and say, "Okay, we're going to here's a we're going to give you a room for 30 days and here's five jobs." And if you went into that program, you were going to be okay because that's how the world really works. You here's a place to stay. We're going to help you. Here's a job. Don't tell me you want to be the Owner of the business. Just go to work and just work.

Like that's the world God built. And it it's beautiful. And like you may not have everything you think you want, but okay. It's okay. And we can we can what me and Donna figured out living overseas is that, you know, with zero. Our kids didn't know we had zero. They thought they were in heaven because they lived in a place where, you know, it was tropical and beautiful and and as long as we didn't look at them going, "Oh, we better start praying right now." Because as long as we didn't instill that fear in them,

they didn't have it. Yeah. Right. And they were Yeah. And so I I So the the struggle I think is like we're so raised in this one mindset and we have it's a discipline. It's the transforming of our mind and stop conforming to the patterns and recognizing the patterns. Reco here it comes. Here we go. I know this feeling. and and then just immediately taking those thoughts captive and holding them up to Christ and going what about this? Why am I afraid of this? What does this mean I believe about you? What does it mean

I believe about myself? What does it mean I believe about other people? And that's the process where the transformation occurs so that we're free. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. I love that passage. If you say to Paul, but why did he set us free? In order that you can be free. Why? To be free. Like that's the answer. What's it for? Like what are we supposed to do? It's like be free, live free. What is a free You're free of fear. You're free of hatred. What would you do free of

fear? We would love go. We would give. Yes. What if we weren't afraid of scarcity? We would give more liberally, you know, more more lavishly. Yeah. Like that. So, but it's a discipline. It's like doing push-ups. You got to do it every day. It's awesome, dude. Love this. Are you have Are you good? Doing great. I'm just like, man, the implication, the ramifications of the conversation are much they're very heavy. Yeah. It's on one side of my brain. I'm like, this is amazing. And the other side I'm like, we're all screwed. Right. Exactly. [laughter] There's

the right and left. Yeah. What do you do? By the way, if Jill Taylor is the woman Yes. Such a great And she has that a book called My Stroke of Insight as well. And it was a fascinating read cuz she's like um you know I'm going to die. Yeah. And then she's like how fascinating. Right. [laughter] That's right. That's what does that mean? That I think that's the balance that we're supposed to have. Yeah. Right. Be anxious for nothing but in everything with prayer and supplicate. It's like, yeah, we know we got to do

this and it has to be done, but that doesn't dominate the way you see everything, right? These are things that need to be done and we're going to do it and we want to do them really well. Yeah. So, how do we do these really well? Back into the intuitive mind. Like, let's think of other ways to do this. What are new ways we can do this? This to me is like the idea of revolution. It's like don't get stuck like revolve. Let that thing the universe move around. Don't just get stuck like this and

then you just get mad and you might want to rebel and rebellions never work. But revolutions can take us into that. What does that mean? Well, I mean it's just so so rebellion is just the idea to push back against to fight against and re the idea of revolution is talking about cosmology, the revolving of the universe to turn and go in a different direction. And so that's been my thing. What in a in a system that's that's locked into one paradigm, there has to be some kind of revolution that occurs, some kind of turning

or some kind of event that breaks out of the the paradigm, right? Order, disorder, reorder, that kind of thing. There has to be the wilderness, the disorder that gets the thing to turn. And so when I look at, you know, my own country or the world that we're in, we are so stuck in a pattern of how we do things, it doesn't matter who's running it, it's still the same pattern of, you know, what we're using the term empire. And so what breaks that kind of tyrannical empire is revolution. And so it's was Jesus a

revolutionary 100%. Was he a rebel? No. But he was so most historical revolutions, French Revolution, something like that, American Revolution, like I said earlier, they will flip the system, but the old system eventually is takes charge again. It's just now a different power in charge, but then it's the same hierarchy and we don't want our enemies in it and all of that. So when we look at Jesus as a revolutionary, he's different because he changes all of the paradigms like who Uh what's the in a revolution you have an enemy in in Jesus's revolution the

enemy is the lie not the person the lie so when the system flips the enemies aren't now down at the bottom the enemies are no longer enemies like that's how much of a revolution it is the weapons are love and laying down your life for another win is through dying not through killing but through dying. So his revolution is so dramatically paradigm shifting that even though through the ages the church turned back into another empire. Yeah. But the revolution of what Christ did in humans kept right on going in spite of the attempt of the

church to make an empire again. So when during you know during the the Roman rule when when they're like kill these pe if you kill these people we'll stop this revolution It increased it because every time they died they were winning like this is the shift and so um so that revolution can't be stopped it can't be killed unless the people in the revolution start believing again in scarcity and certainty and per then they'll then they will take the revolution and put it back inside empire again. But but Jesus Jesus is doesn't allow for that.

That's why that's why we need him as God. That God is Jesus. That's there's the revolutionary leader. This is the model and to be Christlike and to lead this revolution. But there needs to be a revolution. There needs to be a revolution. And we and and you know it was like Spartacus led a rebellion. and Spartacus who was a slave led a slave rebellion not to end slavery though to put his to get his team out of slavery. The Christ revolution ended slavery in the UK. It ended it that revolution. This is a rebellion. This

is a revolution. It ended slavery. It set people. It said no one can be a slave. This just said we're not going to be slaves. Like that that's the difference. And again it's all same thing connection and separation worldview. It's interesting even as you're talking how much of our Government now is set up on um certainty like consumer confidence, approval ratings, like polling. Um is certainty is do you view certainty as a bad thing or is it how do you how fix my brain? It's it's it's going back to what's true and not true. That's

all. It's not a it's not a good or a bad thing. Is my question is is is the pursuit of certainty a pursuit of what's true? like what can we be certain about in our reality? Is anything certain in our reality? The answer is no. It doesn't mean it's not knowable. It just means that every time you learn something, you realize there's more than that. Okay? So, we're certain about certain things, but the certainty leads us to more mystery. It doesn't ever just end. Yeah, we got it. When it ends, then you have extremism because

we will never come off of it. Once I know something's right, I'm never coming off of it. Even though later we learn you're in fact wrong. Yeah. Yeah. There's a book by um Clustermanman called What if we're wrong? It's a great book. Sounds dangerous. And it's the title's upside down on the front of the book. It's like what if we're wrong? And his question is when in history have we ever been wrong about anything. And his answer is we've been wrong about everything all the time. We've never been right about anything. But that's how you

learn. You have a hypothesis. You go to work it out. you realize that part's true and this is totally false. And he even goes into like what's classic literature. What did we determine? And he said Bill uh Melville was considered a horrible writer, but he's now now it's a classic. Like we don't even know. We can't define things in terms of that kind of certainty. It's just it's just the beauty and mystery of the whole thing. That's what we embrace as true. So like I'm certain of this view of God. Wow, dangerous, right? Or I'm

certain that this is all that the brain does. We don't know. I mean, it's such a mystery to us, right? And and so that's what I mean. What's true? Is certainty true? It's not true. Is mystery true? Yes, it's true. Which is more beautiful, certainty or mystery? Mystery, right? I I feel bad when people say, "Here's how to have here's how to be a good parent." That is You can't hurt a person more than telling them how to be a good parent because you're locking them into here's how to be a good parent. Love your

kid. Well, how do you do that? [laughter] Like by by have make them have a Bible study every day. Is that is that love? Is that what is that what love would do? Maybe for this one, but about this one. I don't know. We're not certain. So when you start saying now this is for everyone, lock them in. And the people that don't fit in that, now you have a problem. Now there's something wrong with them, you know. So that's what I mean. I I have stuff I want to do on this, but I'm making

sure you hop in. Your questions have been 10 out of 10 today. So So I don't want to I don't I want to give you space if you got anything. Well, I was I was curious in the I' I've considered certainty a lot. I actually have this thing and I tell my wife this all the time. I struggle when people say things with 110% certainty. I instantly I don't reject it, but I instantly spend the next 30 minutes analyzing it versus getting the chance to accept it because I know I've I feel like I've learned

too much thanks to this show. I feel like I've learned too much to know that anything is 100% certain. So when speak people speak with that much certainty, I struggle. But um I would I'd be curious on your thoughts and speaking to the feeling of after a while I think Blake Healey actually talked about this on our show in terms of certainty as well, but there's this feeling of like ungroundedness that starts to I feel like starts to seep into myself, but then it it makes me question what does really good leadership look like? And

then where do you see that with Jesus? Because Jesus himself is certainty. He is certainty. So, what does it look like to walk inside of that frame rather than the the frame where we end up being the arbiters and the controllers of what's true and what's not true? Yeah, I think there you go. That's a great that's a great way to say it. Who who's in charge of what is true? Yeah. Like like exactly. So, if I'm going to say if if my if I I'm going to sub submit myself to Christ and when I

think Something is true or when I want to understand something is true, that's my place where I'm going like God, is this true? Is this true? Is what is what we're saying true? And what when people are saying this is 100% true? There very few very few people have said to me, I'm just convinced that the love of Christ for me is 100% certain. I don't hear people say that. I'd love to hear them say that. And I would say, yeah, I agree. But that's not what they that's not where they bring certainty down on

things like that. Or um I'm certain that God would never separate from me ever. I'm certain of that. But the things I think those types of things where we should be certain, we're not certain at all. But these other things where we can't be certain because they scare us if we're not certain, we come up with certainty. Does that make sense? So So what I'm certain about is that no ma Yeah. No matter what I do, Christ will never separate himself from me. No matter what. I'm certain of that. That kind of certainty allows me

to embrace mystery at every level of this life. So we're certain about the wrong things. [laughter] Geez. So when someone says, "Yeah, I'm 100% certain." I would push back, too. But if I've never heard anyone say, "I'm I'm certain that I'm forgiven." I mean, that's why I I was saying when we were in the Christian high school and I said, "Raise your hand if God's disappointed in you." Everyone raises their hand. They're certain he's disappointed in them. They're certain. That's the wrong kind of certainty. If I If I said, "Raise your hand if you're certain

God loves you." Nobody raises their hand. That's horrible. That's the enemy. And we're saying, "We now believe a lie is a reality." But if I asked our church the same question, how many would raise their hand? If I said, "How many of you are pretty certain God's disappointed you right now?" I'm It's frightening how many people are raised their hand. And and according to the scripture, he he cannot be disappointed in you. We're not teaching that though. We're God was so disappointed in you, he had to beat up his son so that he could even

look at you. Yep. That's that's what I sort of learned. Yeah. in church. That's why that's why I ask men especially like look Jesus right in the face and ask him what he thinks about you as a parent or a husband or ask him and they don't want to cuz they're certain what he's going to say. Yeah. Cuz it's all going to be well you did that you didn't Yeah. What about last week and what about like that's how he's going to come at you. Why wouldn't he say I think you're I think you're an

incredible husband, dad, father and and um and then here's where we could improve. That's what he would say. He wouldn't just excuse anything. He would say, "I I The truth is you're an amazing parent, so let's start acting like it. How about that?" Like that's how he would talk. It's like, "Let's go. Let's do it." Like a good coach. Yeah. Like a good coach. We last year or the year before we I was in uh Florida and I had for the first time like learned sort of like, okay, this is a way that I can

hear from from God. Um, and it came from Living Fearless, the book that you kind of talked through, shutting down the voice and the lies and all that stuff. So, and God was speaking to me and I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is insane. This is crazy. Is this really God? Is this me? Who is this?" Like, but the things that God was saying were in sounded like it was in scripture and it made me feel a certain way. And it was my first time like learning. I remember coming back and speaking of parenting.

Um, some days your kids are amazing and some days are terrorists. And [laughter] um, I was out of town and so my wife was taking care of the kids and it's one of those days you can tell when your wife is like, "We need to just eat some pizza and you need a night off." Um, and so we were talking and I I felt God keep telling me stuff about my wife and I was like, "Well, what do you think God says about this?" You know, I'm like trying to be Mr. Jamie Winship with my

wife. Oh boy. I was, "Oh [laughter] no." Well, babe, I hear you're frustrated. What do you think God wants you to know about that? [laughter] It wasn't like that, but yeah. What do you think? She's like, "I don't even know." you know, she's frustrated and I said, "Well, God told me what he thinks about you." And she was like, "Tell me like, God told me that you're perfect." And she said, "There's no God wouldn't say that." And we're not perfect. And so, like, how would you back that up? And then God told me a verse.

I don't remember it anymore, but I went and looked at it. I was like, "God made us Jesus made us perfect." She just started to cry. And I've done some of these exercises with entrepreneurs. And I want to circle back to this in a second to help help them. And I've never ever seen or experienced an entrepreneur hear what God thinks about them without them starting to become emotional. And at first you're like, well, did God tell you something bad? Like, are you is he going to kill you or something? Nope. 100% of the time.

Yeah. He told them something was too good that they That's right. They were afraid that they weren't that thing. And then God told me that they they were that thing and they've always been that thing and they start to cry and like I can't believe that God would tell me that um I am the right person in my company. So they're just like we don't believe that what God thinks about us is good. Right. And then in some regards we can't even ask him because we're afraid that we're going to be punished. I've seen that

hundreds of times now. Yep. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. What makes people really weep is how highly God thinks of them. Yes. Because they already condemn themselves. Yes. Yeah. That's so you know in the in the garden the danger for Eve of eating of the knowledge of the tree and good and evil is that she's putting herself in a place of judging good and evil which only God has the right to. So she's putting herself in the place of God which is I talk about this in the book. The five I wills of Satan you know

when he's like I will ascend. I will are the same five I wills that Eve's tempted with. The same I will go do this. I will be like God. That's the temptation of the enemy to her. Um and so it's it's always the same sort of I will statements that get us into trouble. I will have to do this. God's not going to do it. And so um when they when when you come to the Lord oh so when Eve eats of the fruit the she she now has the power to it's it's interesting to

praise or condemn and she moves immediately to condemnation and the first person she condemns is herself. So first John is saying perfect love casts out all fear. The fear that perfect love casts out is the fear of condemnation and punishment. That's the passage context. And and the passage says, "If your heart condemns you, that's who's condemning you is your own heart. God is greater than your heart." And so, we have this deep down condemnation going on all the time. And the enem is right there to to validate it. Yep. Look at that. Look at that.

You did that. You said that. And it's just constant self- condemnation. And so to hear the Lord come in and say, "I don't condem, you know, I don't condemn you. I've never I'm not the accuser of humanity." Mhm. The enemy is. I'm here to tell you the truth about who you are. And here's who I made. And here's who I made. And I'm proud of that. Is almost impossible to hear above the noise of your own heart. It will break you. Yes. And it does. It's the most beautiful. And that's why if that's why sharing

your faith is so incredible versus like attack and uh extract sharing your faith is like I want you to know what God thinks about you like right now. Yeah. No matter where I want you to hear what he says about you right now. If you can walk them into receiving what he says, it's the best news they've ever heard. It's not like you got to convince them. It's like now you got to receive what he said. That's the hard part. how highly he thinks of you. This is so different than everything except for the Bible.

It matches the Bible pretty well, which is [laughter] awesome. Good thing. How much time do we have? I don't know. I don't know what we're at. Are do you have time to go for another 30 minutes or so? Um I want to I want to tackle this scarcity thing. Would it be inappropriate for me to use me as an example and then you could just fix extract and and [laughter] attack and extract? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've always at least [clears throat] scarcity is like how we are taught to build and we're programmed with it but

we think that it's a good thing right and so the way I was trained early on in my entrepreneurial journey was you know you have to build financial models and savings and contingency planning and all of these things. And it's not that they're bad. It just it just um it sort of warps some of what you believe about the future in a way that I think is damaging. And I want some help on this. So, I'm going to use the fact that you're here to get some training. When you look at scarcity and fear, it

seems to be less about your circumstances And more about a internal program, right, that you have. That's right. Um, and so I'm going to give you really quick context, okay? And then I have a really open-ended question that's impossible to answer and hopefully we can navigate, but a couple of years ago, I was hit like really heavily financially, and I know you know what this is like. And it made me so self-protective. I have to go out. I've got to build something new. I've got to protect myself and provide and produce. So, I remember having

conversations with my wife where I was like, "We might have to sell everything and we might have to start over and downsize and do all of these things." And she's like, "Okay, well, I would live anywhere with you, so it's okay." And then years later, we fast forward to last night. We're having dinner together and we're in a very different financial position. Like, things are okay. And I'm like, "We might have to sell everything just to like kick the runway down further." And she's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm just like, "Well, our runway

is better than it was last year, and last year was better than the year before, and but what we're still not safe, you know, we're still not we're not out of the woods yet." And she just sort of paused and she was like, "I'm I think I'm noticing a pattern." And I was like, "I think you're right. It's no matter how much I have, I think I'm going to wrestle with this until I get it fixed. But it's coming from a Experience that I had and if that happens again, I need to have enough of

a war chest to is so confusing because it feels like wisdom and it feels like prudence. Mhm. I want to sort of know how does one start at zero several times like you have without getting into this like it's going to happen again and I need to make sure that I'm okay if it does happen again and where's like what what's wrong what's going on with me like it's got to be me. Well, I mean so I think so there there's a couple of things there. One is um for us to to start at zero

again was because we could look back and go okay when we were at zero last time we were okay actually it was hard and you know and you do have to work in all of those things you don't just quit but it was hard then second time we could do it faster and then the third time it was almost exciting so I had when we were in grad school. There was a there was a guy he he was a professional football player and he had taken I don't know some time off or something cuz his

marriage was messed up and they had come to go into the seminary and he and he decided while he was in the seminary he wasn't going to take any money from anywhere. He just was going to go through the year and just like trust God to take care of him. And when he got to the end of the year he Wouldn't go back. He said, "I I'd never because I don't want to go back into that again and have to learn this again. This is so beautiful." And that happened to us in grad school, too.

We were so broke because the stock market crashed just and everything we had saved up and all, you know, gone. And so, so in the when that happens, it's like you can say, "Okay, the next time this happens, we're going to be ready for it." Then it's taking everything on myself. I'm separating from God. Like um dependent on you. we we came here because of you and the stock market crashed after we made that decision. Let's see. We're not going to trust you anymore like that. Like that's the prudent thing is to protect myself against

God even. And so then we went through that whole time and after after that whole year of like paying all the tuition, never borrowing any money, paying the rent, never having any money, our kids always thinking everything was awesome every time. Um then when I actually got a job after that it was kind of like you know it's like great but it's not as like you know it's like someone that's struggling to make it and then they make it and you like remember the years when we were meeting together you know the good old times

the good old days [laughter] you know that's good selective memory but so so one is the experience of like going through it and you learn okay we don't have to be afraid of that but what people forget is like the the verse is seek first the kingdom om of God and these things will come, right? Not go Back and work as hard as you can and do it again and protect yourself against the next time. It's like no, in it and all along. Seek first the kingdom. Because I think people think, well, if if I

if I stop believing in scarcity, I'm just going to be broke all the time. No, I'm not saying scarcity is the way you think about things. It's the way your heart responds to things. It's not how much money you have or don't have. That's why when you have as much as you can and you're still insecure, that's like saying having a big military makes your country secure. No, it doesn't. It's the opposite. Um because then that's everything you rely on. And if that doesn't work, then you're really in trouble. So you got to have more

of that, more of that. And so it just builds insecurity. But seeking first the kingdom is all along the way from zero to whatever you're always asking the Lord, what do you want me to know? What do you want me to do? And like for us when we were at zero the third time um that's when the idea of identity exchange came up sitting in a coffee shop writing on a napkin was in that zero world man you go back to you either go back to God or you go back to like Elijah and you

find dig water up yourself or never do it again but don't sit and listen go there's a widow down the street like you'll never meet that widow in a scarcity mindset but when He meets that he what he himself is fed by the ravens like he that's him learning it and then the brook dries up and like he's not like all right I'm not doing That again he like I I trusted you and the brook dried up and the birds stop coming okay I'm not doing that ever again or the next time I'm not waiting

for birds I'm bringing my own food then you've just lo you've lost the whole beauty of the whole thing or he can say God the brook dried up it was there once what it's it's God saying let's move Come on, let's go to the next level. But you're not going to go if you're holding on to this thing. Wow. Right. And so I got a widow for you that now that you get it, you have to share it with others. And sometimes as we're building, we don't do that part. It's all accumulation for me. And

yet and but we want to there's there's a widow and and that in in the story of Elijah, there's two first times ever seen in scripture. One is where God sends a a missionary to a gentile. That's the first Elijah is the first time God directs someone to a Gentile away from Israel to a gentile. And Jesus talks about it and said there's there's lots of widows in Israel in that day. But there was one in among the Gentiles that would receive from me. And that that the the Jews wanted to kill him when he

said that made that statement because God loves the Gentiles too and some of them are way more receptive than you guys. And so when he goes to that widow, I don't know what he thinks he's going to, but he probably didn't think he was going to the poorest person that has nothing is going to die. He probably thought some maybe a wealthy widow, a Baptist wealthy widow With an olive empire that she wants to give to somebody. And he sees her and she's picking up sticks to die. But see, his thing is like, "Oh, I've

been at zero." That zero to him becomes the greatest gift he could ever give her. I've been at zero. And his his confidence to tell her like, "No, no, no, you're not going to die because she's going to die and she's already decided the next generation's going to die. Not only is she going to die, so is the pe the ones coming after her." Lots of us think that way. We're this is not going to work and they're not going to work either. And so he's saying to her, "No, you're not going to die. Look,

just do what I say because because I know because I've lived this myself. This is a real witness. This is an evangelism. This is witnessing. It's different. I'm telling you what I myself have experienced and know and so I'm going to give it to you. And when he if he acts in scarcity, he's not going to engage with her. Like, oh, let's all die together in poverty. But what God is saying, no, I want you to prosper. The way to prosperity is with her. You just would have never picked this way doing it on your

own. And so doing it on your own, you're going to fight the empire the rest of your life and it'll squash you and you'll get back up and it'll squash you again and you'll get back up and it'll squash you and you may be a Christian but you're the empire is going to run you. Seek first the kingdom and all the rest will come, right? And so when I'm nervous and I do I get nervous about I I'm nervous because we have people that we pay you know that we Employ that I love to death

and I want them to prosper prosper. I want them to have more. Um, so when I look at numbers and stuff, it what makes me anxious is them. But again, that's like I'm God. Like I'm the one that's got to supply and I'm taking his place. And as soon as I take start to take his place, the weight of it, I feel it. And so then my next thing is like, God, okay, what am I afraid of right now? What am I afraid of right now? I'm afraid that you're not going to do this. You

are not going to provide. and I have to and the last time I tried to it was a rocky road. Yeah. And so it's just remember it's that fear. And so the scarcity not out here in here. Scarcity of my relationship with God. That's the scarcity he wants to get rid of. And so that's where you're working all the time and not out here so much here, here, then here. Right? Exile for Israel began here and then moved out to here. Everything starts right. Scarcity starts here and shows itself here. So enough comes here and

shows itself out here. Amazing. That's great. Um we've been doing that exercise by the way of me and Lindsay every Monday. What are you afraid of? We haven't gone to every day yet. We're working up. [laughter] You're working up to We're working like working out. Then you go three times a week. Yeah. Uh but what I found is that my answer is always the same. I'm always afraid of the exact same thing. Yeah. And it is that God will put me into a position and then abandon me. Yes. In the middle of it. Um can

we talk about abandonment for a second? Sure. When when you boil every all of the fear down to just a couple of different things. One of them that you've said is like am I alone? um which most people were so interconnected in the world of social media but we're so by ourselves, right? Um how have you navigated through cuz you've been abandoned before? You've experienced it and uh h how do you think about that? Do you ever feel a fear of being abandoned? Do you ever feel fear anymore? Or is it the same thing? You

have a database? Yeah. No, I don't I don't think I I wouldn't honestly I wouldn't I don't ever feel fear of being abandoned. No, I've I've worked through that so many times. And you this the thing I love about walking with Jesus is you do graduate. I mean, you do get better and faster and and the lies are always the same. The lies are kind of boring and predictable actually. They're just they just are effective. They're not any new creative way. But but you do get to places where like you're faster. It's just like doing

anything that you do where you're working out or training or Like you get better and faster and and but if you lay off of it, you you you lose it. And so I abandonment. No, I sometimes what I'm like if I'm fearful of something in relation to God, it's that like I still wrestle with is he disappointed in me? That's going to always be my thing. Got it. He won't leave me, but he'll still look at me going gh. Yeah. You know that he's disappointed in me. I think all of us have whatever reason we

think God's disappointed in us. Um, so I do wrestle with that because I don't, you know, I don't do everything right and obviously and for sure and I have lots of things in my past that can come up in front of me that do and so when the past comes up in front of you that's a challenge for me, you know, things I did in my past and and you know even like I'll get uh like u contacted by someone I like I went to high school with and I'm like oh no, you know, who

knew me or people Yeah. people that knew me in the day and I always it makes me feel like hypocritical, you know, or like whatever. But the um so same thing. It's like Lord, what am I afraid of here? And and he's he's like that you're a disappointment. And so how many times will he go through the you're not a disappointment lesson with me? Every time. That's the beauty of God. Every He'll do it every time as many times as necessary until I stop believing that Lie. So you just keep working it. Work it. Work

it. Don't let it go. Don't let it fester. Keep attacking it with Don't bury it. Mm- And don't cope with it. Don't try and cope with it. Address it. My My That's why I think you and I talked about this before. My prayer life has become way less words. [laughter] Very simple, direct. Yeah. Um not my will, your will be done. Into your hands I commit my spirit. The Lord is my shepherd. I don't need anything. Y like just those simple help me to believe this. Yes. Help me to believe these there is no condemnation

for those who are in Christ Jesus. Help me to believe that. Yeah. Into your hands I commit my spirit. I found the best place to pray this prayer cuz I practice these in different places. The cold plunch [laughter] is you have no other option. There's always a chance you might not make it out the other side. You might not make it out. So just go ahead and commit your spirit right then so you can make it through. Jake, what you got? and see I'm I've been trying to wrestle with how to ask this the right

way, but Jamie, one of the things I' I've personally wondered about is The idea that you go from the religious worldview of everything's legalistic and rule-based and self-righteous and then you go to the other side and you're the open-minded side. What I have found myself guilty of is being like, "Well, I'm right because I'm on this side of the camp. I'm one of the enlightened people and I I I'm not going to say a bad word on the show, but I sound like a you know I sound terrible. And um I was reminded of I

was curious if you could expand on this quote by Tim Keller. It's in King's Cross. It's I can't I'm trying to get the exact quote, but this is a quote from somewhere else he taught it. He said, "If your self-image is based on being a decent, open-minded, compassionate person rather than on the gospel, then you still have a moral performance narrative and you can still look down on others." I could only imagine, and if I'm wrong to assume this, you can tell me, but I don't think I'm wrong, but I would imagine that you probably

have a level of frustration with the religiosity that causes so much damage that you then have a little bit of a calling on your life to undo to to a degree, obviously, without the fixing side of it. But how do you work through that and how do you address the people that are causing the damage that you're having to undo without becoming angry and just as self-righteous as they are in the process? Yeah. Again, such that's such a Yeah. Great question. And to have that kind of balance because it's the same thing if if like

you're going to topple a certain paradigm, then you just build another one, right? And then that becomes the thing that you worship and you can't get out of whether it's yeah, we're open-minded or we're progressive or whatever that is. It's Just it's the exact same thing just another group saying it. So I I the thing that helps me a lot is I every time every time I'm mad about something or um yeah, you know, frustrated with someone, it's my own fear that's doing it. So I I always remember this. So when a person's mad at

me, I learned this when I was a copy. And if you're trying to deescalate a situation where the person is just mad at you and it's because they're afraid, and this is what allows you to have mercy on people, on your enemies, what they're doing, they're doing because they're afraid. That's what fear the only motivators for a human heart is fear or love. Those are the only two things that motivate decisions in a human heart. Fear or love. That's they have to go down to one of those two. And so um that's why that's why

don't fear but you know everything needs to be done with love as the source you know love in not love like I'm in love with everybody but I I have their good in my mind like I have their good in my mind and so when a person when I disagree with the person or they're coming hard against us about something my whole thing is like they're afraid and I tell our people that's why the best negotiators when they're in a when they're in Um, especially if you're interrogating a, you know, terror suspect or something, when

they when they the when they go T-Rex, you go mouse immediately. Jesus is an expert at doing this. You don't T-Rex up with the other person, then it just goes through The roof into a war. It's like when they come up like that, you drop down because a quiet word turns away wrath. Okay? And so, why would you do that? Are you weaker them? No, you're controlling the room. You're actually in charge of the room. The person who forgives always has the power in the room. The one who forgives has the power. The one who

not the one who needs it. They're out of control in the room. But the one who forgives. And so whenever So if I'm talking to someone, they disagree with me or I think they've caused damage in a situation. I know what they're doing is because they're afraid. And so that always allows me to have mercy on them. And for me to know that when I'm getting bit out of shape about something, it's because now I'm afraid. But maybe I'm wrong. Oh, I can't be wrong. You know, you do that kind of thing. And or I'm

going to look stupid, so I got to defend myself. That's why we can't have any discourse in this country at all about any topic because no one has the humility to be wrong. Nobody. And it's all this, you know, going like that. And that's why it's so violent all the time. Um, so that's humility and hearing from God protects us from getting to a place where I'm so mad at you guys. You guys caused so much damage because I've caused damage. You know, I have in my life with my own kids. And so that's easy

for me to remember. So when I'm going to go tell someone how to do something, I have my own the voice of the Lord like, "Hey, let's don't let's remember don't Paul says I remember what I formerly was. It doesn't bring me any condemnation, but I don't forget it. Yeah, I do know where I came from. And that keeps us humble. And then this person who's so certain that these people are going to hell or whatever that is, it's their own fear. Someone said to me, you know, it's like, well, if you think if if

anyone can hear from God, then anyone can just do whatever they want. That's all that's a fear statement if there ever was one. If you can hear from God, if we could hear from God, do you think God's telling us we can do whatever we want? No. If you're hearing from God, you don't even need the law. That's what Jesus said. You won't even need law because the whole motivation will be other focused, self-emping, unconditional love for your enemy. We won't even need law because perfect love, you know, love perfects the law. And so, it's

all that fear back and forth. I I think that answers whenever I'm watching two parties arguing. Even if I think these guys are right and they're wrong, when they start the back and forth, fear now fear, here we go. Here we go. And the conflict's just going to never end. What does that end up sounding like? Because I could I could see if I hadn't already had a similar conversation like this before behind the scenes, I could see somebody being like, "Well, if I was doing it with Taylor, I'd be like, "Well, Taylor, I know

that you're afraid. That's going to only trigger him more." Like that's only going to make things only going to make it worse. Yeah. Because the way you say that's an accusation. Thank you. Right. So here's what you say is like before you even get into anything especially if you're with a person that is that you're going to disagree with The very first thing and we do this in our team is like is anyone afraid right now? Is anyone dealing with fear right now? It's not an accusation. It's a fact of human life. You're curious, right?

It's like because if anyone's dealing with fear right now, if we're going to go to this next topic, it's not going to work. Or if we're going to try and be creative, it's not going to work. So, let's just deal with the very human thing that most of us are always wrestling is what are you worried about or fearful in right now? And that allows the group to unite. Taylor, on record, you have permission to do that to me. Anytime I say something dumb, you ask me, "Are you afraid?" Well, the thing is fear is

also a culture. Yes. Um, so we're working on a like a leadership profiling tool cuz I need to speed up how I get like data and I I love psychometrics and one of the questions in this is how how fearful are you of the future of your for your organization. That's right. Because if the CEO is fearful of the future, I can almost guarantee that everyone on their staff is operating out of that fear. and they may not be afraid of the future, but now they're operating out of fear of punishment, right? And then creativity

shrinks and and so I think it's I've I've been a case study in the past of running the fear culture thing and I don't I think we're beyond that now, but um it's a great I've never thought about doing that exercise with the team. I should probably do that. [laughter] Yeah, that's I mean that's a good one. I just to do for yourself, Lord, what am I afraid of right now? What am I afraid of today? And the goal is nothing. I mean, that's the goal. It's not like you want to sit in every day

as well. It's like the Lord wants you to not be afraid. Yeah. So, you don't want to be in any community like, well, we're just going to be afraid all the time because that's like, well, then you're afraid of being afraid all the time. You like you're never going to get out of it. No, we're going to we're going to walk with Jesus and he's going to walk us out of it. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. I think we should in there. That's always going to be the my favorite part. Anything else you we should have

asked you or you No. Isn't that the craziest interview? What else should What do you think I should have asked you that I didn't? Like, hold on. Let me read your mind for a second and tell you. Guys, let us know what you think. Pre-order his book. If you haven't read Living Fearless, get that one as well. Thanks for being here. Yeah, always good to be here. You guys are the best. Thank you. See you guys next week.