You said objections are fear-based I tell people there's no such thing as an objection there's only fear 100% Chris Boss you don't know him you probably should Master negotiator Chief crisis negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI and then is the lead International kidnapping negotiator if you're ambitious you're Innovative if you're competitive you're not innovating you're looking to perfect what you do I I always say with salese or companies it's like well how much how much time are you putting in to really master your tone the the best actors and actresses they
actually become the character they're portraying in their almost real life human nature there a number of things that are predictable upfront people make decisions and react based on how this is affecting their identity and how it's affecting their future so I I'll say to A bad guy sounds like you've been struggling with us for a long time why is your tone right there with that concern tone so important when you're talking to that bad guy the old phrase emotions are contagious that's not psychology that's all right welcome to another episode of closers or losers Jeremy
Miner in the house today we've got Mr Chris Voss if you don't know him you probably should Master negotiator this is a title earned That he's known for throughout his time as serving as the the crisis negotiator Chief I don't that's the word Chief crisis negotiator for the New York City division of the FBI and then is the lead International kidnapping negotiator for the FBI lot of syllables in there aren't there there's a lot of syllables in there and that's helped develop skills he now teaches about negotiation right he then proceeded to teach business negotiation
at USC Georgetown and Harvard Business Schools and in 2008 he founded his company the Black Swan Group which obviously specializes in teaching you how to never leave money on the table by using hostage negotiation techniques maybe for your business in May of 2016 he published the national bestseller never split the difference actually have a copy it's great book uh negotiate is if your life depended on it and to teach people everywhere how to apply these hostage negotiation Techniques even in their da lives he's proficient in negotiating with real terrorists giving him plenty of context to
help in the corporate world where companies seem to get legally taken hostage all of the time Chris welcome to the show Welcome to Scott it's beautiful all right let's roll so I love the book probably a lot of our listeners uh W people watching this have read the book book I want to know and I'm not sure if anybody's ever asked you this like maybe They did a different way why did you write this book in the first place and who did you write it for uh well um I was I knew I needed a
book at some point in time soon as I got out of the bureau yeah um and effectively you know private sector consultant coach everybody I talked to said look you got to have a book nobody's going to listen to you if uh you don't have a book and if you don't have a book why should I listen to you yeah but I wasn't ready to put one Out right away I wanted to make sure that we had a full system like my gut instinct was it uh emotional intelligence if you will yeah applied emotional intelligence
of Hostage negotiators we refer to now as tactical empathy yeah worked in every human interaction but I needed proof of concept uh outside of my experience sure so in teaching at Georgetown and at USC and at Harvard I made the students and these were Master's degree level students these are not undergrads so that most of them were part-time which means they had full-time jobs MH and so to pass my course you had to use my skills in your life okay whether it's Wall Street or whether it's at home with your wife negotiating over what kind
of Christmas tree to get sure yeah and so then we collected a bunch of proof of concept which the book is full of stuff from real life negotiations It's contrasted to other hostage negotiators that came out they just said here's we did yeah uh try it in your world and it's a little bit too much of a leap to make so we need to prove a concept and it took us a few years to put it together and then found tall Ross genius writer genius writer for business books and the book has done really well
since yeah it's a great book uh I want to I want to talk a lot about uh you know getting the no that eventually Leads to the yes uh we we call it different things with sales training uh and I love that concept you know arue against would it be completely unrealistic some different techniques like that where did you actually learn that because I went to school to become a either a psychologist or a psychiatrist I went the psychologist route because you know I don't want to go more years I'm like you know I'm like
trying to figure out math and like my Brain doesn't work that way but it's very rare that you know somebody would even know how the brain functions to cause a prospect or anybody to feel you know they're far more comfortable with the word no in a sales situation than they are with the word yes or even in life they know where that leads to right everybody knows that script or that frame right so where where where did you actually learn those techniques is that's not really taught very yeah well You know the first the first
time that really got me rethinking the whole thing because I used to be yes is success and yes is agreement and in point of fact at best yes is only an aspiration yeah like we don't even try to get agreement with yes we try to get with that's right yeah that's what we're going for but so then uh 2 roughly 2002 I'm working kidnappings I'm rolling in out of airports always checking looking for books like you I love to read and I see This book out of the corner of my eye on the Shelf says
start with no and I I I remember literally doing a double take when like start with no I thought you were supposed to get to yes it's almost like a pattern interrupt yeah absolutely it is yeah so I pick it up and I leave through it Jim Camp who became a friend uh his concept wasn't getting people to say no m it was telling him it's okay to say no yeah okay and he said this preserves people's autonomy and people Will die over their autonomy now this is a business book and I knew from hostage
negotiation that people would die over their autonomy yeah and we had it all the time we had to be very careful about not making them feel forced yeah and then they'll come out we make him feel forced we're probably going to have to kill him yeah so um then I start sharing a book with all my hostage negotiators you know cuz I got a team all over the world I previously shared getting to yes With them yeah and everybody's reaction to getting to yes was always the same this makes so much sense yeah but that's
all they would ever say they wouldn't say I made a deal because of it it actually works yeah no no nobody like it it'll actually yeah makes sense but you can't apply it yeah so I'm sharing uh start with no and one of my hostage negotiators says you know did I do this and she actually asked she was in a boss was mad at her was going to remove her From the team which was going to be it was a control oriented move it was a bureaucratic guy who was jealous of her and she says
to him do you want the FBI to be embarrassed which is a no warranted question and I can remember she's telling me the story and and when she says this in my brain like all my alarm bells are going off I'm being horrified like that is so clearly manipulative it's so obvious I figure the next thing She's going to tell me this guy was screaming at her yeah and instead she said when she said that do you want the FBI to be embarrassed he he relaxed yeah he sat back in his chair he you know
this is steepling it's what people do when they feel really good about themselves and he says no yeah now this is a subordinate to a boss which is a great test of whether or not skill Works can it work with someone who sees you as sees you in an inferior Position that's the reality gives you situational status raises your stat so if he doesn't blow up and then she follows up with uh a differential question yeah what do you want me to do yeah instead of arguing MH and what he needed was a restoration of
the feeling of comfort and control yeah and he says well you know go back to the hostage negotiation team it's all right so he walk she walks into the office to get fired yeah and she walks out Intact so you know we start to look at this and we at the time as me and my son Brandon he's he used to teach alongside with me and Derek gun guy on my team yeah and we're fascinated by this so we decided to take it a step further what if you get them to say no because there's
an instance where somebody you got somebody to say no as a game changer yeah so we start to develop this and one of the students of Georgetown takes the ideas yeah and he's Working for a republican fundraising Committee in the second Obama election and if they're if they're calling for money at night it's yes it's the yes momentum it's a yes three yeses everybody learns three yeses ask for the money it's so bad and he changes the first question on their script from would from it used to be would you like to see the Republicans
back in the White House in November to have you given up on taking the White House back in November Ros a no no script side by side with the yes script no script performs 23% better yeah it's very proud of himself boss has come in in the morning he wants to show them how he's improved their their approach mhm and they say never do that again yeah even though it works we don't do it that was a fluke when people most of the time when people see something that's against their training you show them proof
and they W you know that's the exception it proves A rule which is something I've never understood that there's no logic behind that yeah and so we began to just insert it into part of our overall approach and yeah one of the uh one of the entrepreneurs that came to our two-day training in Chicago just about a month or so ago said the only thing he did he measures everything every entrepreneur should be measuring everything on their sales teams and they had their sales team switch from yes to no to close yeah And their close
rate went from 12% to 60% and it's really how you you use it's how you say that it's how you say that question you like your tone right tone is your tone is completely it could be a monotone tone because if they're just like are you are you willing to let the Democrats take back the the house like well no but it's not going to trigger much emotion but like are you are you going to let them take back the White House like a challenging tone you're Going to trigger a different emotion to get them
they say no but it's more powerful like well no I'm not going to let that happen and now they're emotionally involved all in your tone or or you know and that there's multiple ways and a challenging tone is a great tone because challenging in context you challenging is often coaching and people want to rise to the challenge and another one to say you know inquisitive just genuinely curious like are you are You willing to let him Pi back the W house yeah it's almost like it's kind of like a curious slash your concern like it's
a concern tone the concern tone the tone that shows empathy is the game changer with sales and persuasion you know your tone is how the the person interprets your intention behind what you're saying and asking right czy amen yeah we're on the same page hey guys Jeremy Miner here look a lot of you leave comments wanting me to help you Some more so the easiest way to get a hold of me the quickest way is to text me so text me right now it's 480 637 2944 so 48637 2944 listen I started this company to
help you learn how to close more deals but do it the right way so like I said it's like I said it's very rare because you know I speak with I have a lot of friends that are sales trainers that are you know have different strategies and obviously we we would With my methodology it's very rare hearing somebody talk about you need to understand how the human brain makes decisions to influence and persuade otherwise you're like guessing you're like throwing mud against the wall hoping something sticks so in your in your mind why is under
why would a salesperson why would a business owner why would anybody need to understand the way the human mind works if they want to Be like top at persuasion negotiation why is that so important accelerate it's an acceleration um one of the companies were training out a few years ago they'd already taught their people the only thing that affects deal timelines are relationships M so your communication style is either causing the timeline to be longer or shorter yeah usually longer inadvertently the the yes Thing makes the timeline longer triing them to like delay and procrastinate
because at the core of every human being we have all we all have a fear of change right right so any objection you get any reason why a person delays procrastinates doesn't do something is because they have a fear of change they might not like where they're at but at least they know it and they're comfortable with it they're uncomfortable being comfortable or They're comfortable being uncomfortable right but on the other side of change they don't know what that looks like the devil unknown exactly yeah so it's with with your techniques about getting them to
say no that lead JS that's a technique that gets them to kind of overcome that fear it's a start right there's a lot more but to help them overcome that fear change so they can get to the other side or deactivate it you know what what we're really looking To do is deactivated and you know you said objections are fear-based yeah and I tell I tell people there's no such thing as an an objection there's only fear I agree 100% so so much sales training obviously you you've looked at it is is all about like
oh I got to get better at objection handling I'm like you need to get better objection prevention because what causes a prospect to object about anything it's uncertainty right if you're uncertain About something you're not going to change you don't feel any urgency so when you talk about like sales Cycles being longer is because sales people are triggering uncertainty in the brain and it causes the prospect to be uncertain that's why they don't right right exactly yeah I love that so let's talk about your company started the Black Swan group back in 2008 which I
love the name like that is a brilliant name it's like almost like a pupt as well um can You give us an overview of the companies you help and kind of what problems you saw for them yeah well we help them all I mean I keep everybody says in business you got to have a you know what's your ideal client look like our ideal client is is somebody who's curious and ambitious yeah um now there are two importants that's a psychographic versus a demographic if you're ambitious you're Innovative if you're Competitive you're not innovating you're
looking to perfect what you do it's a great the great contrast in the NFL I think and forgive everybody that doesn't follow the NFL forgive me but Kirk Cousins versus Patrick Mahomes and and someday Kirk Cousins is going to walk into an office and say stop picking on me yeah but cousins is very competitive MH and I think a self admitt perfectionist yeah see that so what Happens cousins wins games yeah cousins will get you into the playoffs cuz he's gotten several teams into the playoffs sure he hasn't got a ring yet that's valid and
I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a ring yeah but he hasn't got one yet and then also he's kind of famous like he'll have a a one one a great game and then a horrible game yeah or two great games and a horrible game now what's that a result as a result of when you set a goal and you meet the goal you Tend to relax right you quit you you met the goal like a chill it's it it's a problem in human nature why do championship teams have trouble repeating well they met the
goal MH and they're and and they're not they're not working as hard afterwards yeah and also Perfection is essentially a Fool's Aon you know to be the best so you're always unhappy and you don't realize it but you're limited by your competition if your goal is to be number One then when you're number one you could quit you met your goal yeah now Mahomes on the other hand creative Innovative he's not perfecting his throwing motion yeah hell he threw a pass behind the back the other day he's trying different things nobody's done he's all this
and he's having a ball yeah and he's he's always looking like his measure of of is not his competition his measure is how did he do last game he's got to do better Yeah and he's delighted and he's happy and how many rings has he got so far was is it I know was at least three it's three or four it might be four but unless he gets hurt it's three and you know they keep they the Chiefs do a great job putting good players around him yeah like he's just G to keep getting ranks
and so that's the difference between competitive ambitious so ambition you can never stop getting better and you love it it's that's I Think that's what I loved about Tom Brady he was so ambitious because every week you know some quarterbacks in the NFL you guys know watching this some quarterbacks in the NFL can do well against certain teams that run certain defensive schemes but other teams that run different defensive schemes is like they're just not that good but Brady it didn't matter what the scheme was like he was always figuring out how to perfect his
game against Anything that was thrown at him yeah like literally and it's like if they threw a different scheme at him within like the first five minutes like halfway through the first quarter he's already figured it out because he spent so much time studying the the the the team before he even strapped on it he he said he's like look we we were winning the game in practice that's where we won the game was in the week before practice we didn't win the game game on the field we Won it the week before what are
your thoughts about that yeah well when that's how much prep time are you willing to put in to get better yeah is the real issue and that and that's the hard thing especially about negotiation negotiation is a perishable skill yeah so doing it Brady didn't win those championships by only playing in the games yeah um he believed in focusing on his craft not in the game to get better and and a lot of people um if you don't Take the time take time out to find a way to practice your negotiation even if it's in
your everyday interaction your skills slip yeah and a lot of people want to take on negotiation course yeah and then never pay any attention to whether or not they hung on to the skills let alone improv them you rehearse that right rehearse it like if you're in a meeting with a board or you're negotiating something like you should be rehearsing that over and over And over for probably weeks before you get there I I always say with salespeople or companies it's like well how much how much time are you putting in to really Master right
your tonality because I want you to imagine I always tell them like give me your favorite movie star you know somebody's like Leonardo DiCaprio I'm like perfect example how much time do you really feel he puts into every role before he even gets on stage in that part he's hours a Day because the the best actors and actresses they actually become the character they're portraying in their almost real life it's not like they're just like he's this guy and then he just gets on set and changes into let's say the wolf on Wall Street you
know he's starting to act and behave and do things and those patterns in his everyday life so that's always tell salespeople like you don't want to like learn how to sell just when you get on the phone or in Front of a prospect you need to learn how to communicate like with anybody everywhere right what yeah yeah you got to stay shock yeah and and there's certain intentional practice and then you know should I choose to engage with a lift driver you know I'm trying to open them up yeah you know somebody at the airport
somebody behind a counter anywhere because I got to stay sharp and and not that long ago like I practiced on a TSA guys did you all let's hear the Story I'd like to hear what' you do what happened well in this in this particular instance you know you got to practice doing a read you know we call it a cold read you got a pretty good idea somebody's where somebody's head's at just by looking at them yeah and I'm rolling through TSA and I realized that you know I hadn't really you know dusted off my
skills and and I see this guy he's waiting for my bag to come out and I look at him he's got kind of a Bland look on his face but what I do is I read him incorrectly yeah which is one of the things that's great about practice because there's there's no penalty for a wrong answer most people are afraid of getting penalized for a wrong answer so I look at this guy go tough day and he's kind of like no and I go now I'm down there and I go just another day right yeah
and he goes yeah just another day so so I grabbed my bag but with that little bit of practice 5 Minutes later I'm in the middle of a very important phone call MH I don't normally take calls at the airport if if I get on the phone with you I want you to get my 100% attention I don't take calls when I'm driving I don't take them at the airport yeah I'm disgusted by these guys that talk on the phone in a bathroom like I can't imagine that like how does a person on a phone
not hear that flushing in the background and I know where you are that's just Rude right yeah but this guy was uh good friend and very hard to get on the phone so I'm in I'm in the airport I got to take this call I'm reacting in the call because I just sharpened my skills back up just a few moments before yeah and so I'm doing that all the time I'm reading people I'm reacting with them I'm trying to draw them out yeah get stuff out of them that nobody else has gotten so when you
were FBI negotiator uh because I you know Third principle of my methodology anq neuro emotional persuasion questioning I always say listen to what the prospect means not just what they say right so when you were negotiating with terrorists how did you learn how to read their tone to really understand if they were what what they meant not just what they were saying well human nature there are a number of things that are predictable upfront yeah it doesn't matter the Circumstances people make decisions and react based on how this is affecting their identity yeah and how
it's affecting their future mhm and then if they're in a given in a given set of circumstances uh the the decision journey is a slow escalation MH you're going to try to AC if you try to accomplish something via violence you've been trying to accomplish it non violently leading up to that sure so if I'm talking to a bad guy on the phone What do I know yeah I know he's been struggling with this problem for a while yeah and I know he's tried to solve it other ways so that'll be the clues in advance
that I'm looking for right I know he's going to be driven by a sense of loss I know he's going to be thinking about what his future holds yeah I know he's going to have an evaluation of what he's doing right now you're looking for patterns looking for patterns and many of them are predictable because people Make decisions the same way no matter what the circumstances are so you know I I'll say to a bad guy um sounds like you've been struggling with us for a long time and that respon everybody hear his tone there
why is your tone right there with that concern tone empathy so important when you're talking to that bad guy because people that because of Neuroscience and neurochemicals and your neurochemicals Are going to be triggered by the tone of my voice before I finish my sentence yeah and I know what those neurochemicals neurochemicals are going to do the old phrase emotions are contagious yeah that's not psychology that's Neuroscience so I can change the speed that your brain is operating MH and the U mood at will yeah now you can fight it yeah like I can try
to get you to smile That's why people smile back because it's a neurochemical response sure now you might fight the smile but that doesn't stop me from starting the process in your brain you're taking them out of a frame of a way of thinking into a new way of thinking based on neurochemicals yeah and so the calming soothing voice triggers chemicals that calm you down you're disarming them yes getting them to let their guard down it's just like if you're in sales if you Are let's say you start a cold call and you're either like
super super excited like a no pun attendent used car salesperson which we love you we train a lot of you you're crushing it and we want you to make money too timid like you're uncertain you're triggering fight or flight right so in a terrorist I'm assuming it's it's the same thing as you know if you're a psychologist with a patient you can you have to trigger them to get them to let their you have to Cause them to let their guard down because if they don't let their guard down they won't emotionally open up and
they can't hear you they can't hear you yeah yeah I like that tone is so important we're going to talk more about tonality what what are your thoughts about inop I I haven't really studied it but those that have are frequently telling me there's a lot of over AP in what we talk about which makes sense because Great communication in human beings is going to have overlap yeah so what little I'm familiar with you know there there's there's a lot of overlap yeah there is for sure uh and you know just mention framing for a
second now I might call you might call it something different than I would call it so NOP talks a lot about framing but NP like didn't invent that term right it's it's been around actually from J Sigman Floyd talked about but so every is a Psychologist or a psychiatrist every patient or every human being in and in the world has a certain way of thinking right they call it a frame that's and it's your world view based on how you're raised as a kid you know usually from the ages like 4 to 13 you're influenced
heavily by your parents your your aunts your uncles people you're around now if you're a kid on Tik Tok you're influenced by influencers you're follow so you have a worldview based on that Condition that is your frame so let's say a prospects frame might be like well I always believe that I'm never going to make a decision on the spot I'm just making something out that could be their way of thinking like I don't make decisions on the spot because of something bad happened in the past where they made a bad decision it didn't work
out right that could be a negotiation too so it's like you as the Persuader how do you take them out of that frame Or way of thinking we call that defaming them how do we take them out of that frame we're defaming them out of that frame and then you probably heard this we're reframing them into a new way of thinking or a new frame now when you're negotiating with terrorists I'm assuming you're doing the same thing that a way of thinking or a frame and you were getting them out of that way of thinking
and reframing them into a new way of thinking well frequently if there's a Change in uh frame so to speak perspective it's going to be there's going to be a difference between shortterm and long term yeah and so if I want to have influence on how they're saying things that's the purpose of empathy tactical empathy yeah I want to get inside of their brain with their permission you know that's Rapport demonstrating understanding not agreeing yeah demonstrating understanding so when I when I'm when I'm in there in inside Behind their defenses with permission MH then I
can find a way to try to get them to think about it in a new way yeah which is usually uh I ask questions not to get answers yeah ask questions to trigger thinking yeah now if I want answers I'm not going to ask a question I'm I'm going to come at you with a completely different um communication skill I'm assuming you're probably getting the terrorist to question their way of thinking that might have got them Into the situation not the beginning no not really because I'm not going to ask them to change their values
I'm going to ask him to change uh that the out the different outcome can still fit their values could you maybe do that once you built more trust and credibility you wouldn't do that at the beginning because they don't trust you yet but once they are bought in that you care about them that you're you understand them yeah well Interesting words there's a difference between understanding and caring yeah um we talk about that I think everybody liked you know it's good yeah well I can understand you know as a hostage negotiator I can understand you
I mean in in a larger term you know unless you're a serial killer or a Serial evil person yeah I'm I'm going to care about you in point of fact I don't want bad things to happen to you even if you're making really bad decisions right now Mhm uh but I but it's more important to me cuz I know the neurochemicals that are getting triggered if you feel understood by me yeah uh Stephen Cotler friend of mine a brilliant writer is he says empathy is about the transmission of information compassion is a reaction to that
transmission that's good so I'm going to I'm going to transmit information and you probably re react in a way where at a bare minimum you're going to feel Hur and respect and you're Going to want to continue to talk yeah now at that point in time what I'm going to talk with you about is in larger terms is there is there a better way to accomplish what you're trying to get done yeah and what you're trying to get done is uh secure a better future for yourself in your life yeah or get away from the
current problems M and so U I might ask well you know if if this goes the way you're taking it right now and it'll be more complicated than this how It would lay it out but what are the what are the consequences of what you're doing right now versus consequences of long term yeah is essentially what it's going to come down to yeah and right there you're getting them to question that way of thinking because now you're you're getting them to see what the consequences are if they continue down this path yeah that we problem
solv yeah exactly that's good what would you say this is not something I was going to ask You it just came out my mind so you know you have the the new president now coming in president Trump uh you've got these countries like Iran and and these other countries maybe you know that maybe don't like the us or whatever what would you say is whether it was president president Trump coming in or the you know the former President Biden how do you feel about the way the US talks about like Russia or Iran and and
how do you feel they view us why why do You think there's that conflict there where they can't understand each other um so I tend to vote more Republican a Democrat sure but you know Trump is even a little bit different a different breed because American politicians have typically specialized in telling other countries they're wrong yeah all the time there's an accusation were either imperialistic and in a military sense or culturally imperialistic yeah you're Wrong yeah we call the Putin like the dictator whatever you know or whatever we call them there's a there's a complete
lack of understanding not agreement you know uh the second Iraq war which I thought was one of the worst decisions in the history of American foreign policy yeah but you know President Bush I voted for Bush essentially a republican mostly in uh sport of the policies he says this is my opportunity this opportunity to bring Democracy to the Middle East so what you just said to every Middle Eastern country that you're hoping for cooperation with we want to replace your leadership yeah because none of them had democracies so there's going to be some obviously you
know you you want the Saudis to give us air bases and simultaneously we're telling them we want them to replace their government we don't realize that's what we're saying but that's what they're hearing yeah to His to his credit under under the Abraham Accords under Trump which is you know uh his son-in-law Jared great interviewing on Le Freedman about it okay um you know at at at Donald's Direction but Jared's implementing so his approach is all right to get to to the table here the agreement is everybody gets to keep their job so this the
first time America is not saying we want to replace your government leaders yeah and and now the other side yeah oh I get to keep my job yeah that's the price of admission table Stakes yeah I'm stepping up yeah so they starting to meet at the table Yeah and and now now they're talking about it and you know the flip side as supporters of Hamas and Hezbollah you know I've heard him say Well we were never given a seat at the table you never agreed to the table Stakes M you keep telling the Israelis MH
that they have to lose their jobs and your Excuses Israelis are telling you the same thing that's why we can't say right but look you didn't all you got to do is agree that if you negotiate with me you can keep your job yeah and that's why the Abraham Accords are a spectacular agreement nothing before it no no foreign policy agreements in my time I've watched a lot of presidents yeah you know I'm on in my old job my name was being mentioned at the White House a lot yeah so I've seen I've seen him
Operate and and and from a empathy tactical empathy point of view I'm not going to talk to a bad guy and say oh by the way if you if we make a deal with you I'm going to lock you up that's not how I open my convers I think a lot of it is just because of politics in general they're so used to attacking each other like we're right we're right you're wrong like you're 100% wrong we're 100% right that when they go in and you know let's say Somebody does something over there like Russia
starts to invade Ukraine or whatever there's a lot of behind that it's like they're evil they're wrong anding the other side it just triggers the other side to be like well they're evil they're wrong you know like nobody thinks they're the evil per the the evil government like everybody thinks they're the great government you know they're all Patriots of their own country yeah in point of fact or at least in their Mind yeah and that's I think it's where it's it's the empathy you know it's trying to understand where they're coming from you don't have
to agree with them but if they feel like you're trying to understand their side automatically it draws them into try to understand your side changes the game changes the ball game uh let's Okay a couple more questions here so a type personalities let's talk about aype CEOs right that let's say they're aggressive you start Have having a conversation with them uh they're aggressive they put you on the spot what would be maybe a technique or a tactic or something you could say or maybe you've had a client that you trained to do something a certain
situation that kind of maybe got that a type to let their guard down a little bit well uh typically you know they're looking to establish control yeah and if they're not aggressive if they're not attacking they feel out of control yeah So you know it does you no good you don't you know firemen do not go to houses with flamethrowers right yeah so fighting fire with fire is not a smart move yeah and if I'm going to get an aggressive guy to relax yeah I love difference there's great power in difference the secret the G
in the upper hand and a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control that phrase is specifically designed to go with the a Type yeah because if they feel in control and what they really want more than anything else more than a deal mhm to be respect Ed and heard yeah so if I respect them and feel them make them feel heard that's immediately a different conversation yeah it's all about disarming them too it's like right you know if you sit in a boardroom there's eight people in there this is I I've learned
this in one of my corporate CS in B2B Enterprise sales that let's Say they come in and you come in like hey you know they're like hey how you doing today most say to be like Oh I'm doing great I'm really excited to be here thanks for the opportunity and it just sounds like everybody else right but if I walk in and I use like a playful tone and I'm like oh you know just trying to stay out of trouble what about you guys are you getting trouble today just a little playful tone like oh
they just chuckle and they laugh right Right dopamine's released in their brain they start to let their guard down you know just little disarming techniques here and there playful tone and I love the playful tone or if you get on a zoom call like how you doing if they the prospect Ash how you doing today well you know just hanging out being boring what about you oh I'm sure you're not boring guard comes down it's just playful tone it's all it's like everything everything with a human being The way they view you really is your
tone and your body right you know it's crazy where did you where did you learn those techniques because most people don't know those techniques unless somebody's like we're not born with those where did you really learn well everything's learned so you know it first started the late night FM DJ voice that's good yeah you know I first start on on a suicide crisis hotline that I volunteered you know last century yeah And and then like I like to learn like if some if somebody shows me something really interesting and they achieved a completely different outcome
than what I expected yeah I'm like oh that was interesting and so I get exposed to Great communicators along the way and then and then I try what they're doing and you know I'm constantly testing and learning so I I love I love the people that do stuff where everybody else says I have No idea that happened right so what does that mean that means they didn't bully anybody yeah you know in law enforcement it was always like you want somebody to cooperate you got to have a hammer you know and then I'd work with
agents that got people to cooperate and Never Had A Hammer yeah and I'm like and everybody go like yeah you know I don't know how he got that guy to cooperate so you know it was it was emotional intelligence and so what does That mean as a user they're never these C atory moments M there just incredible Effectiveness yeah and when you got to see people work magic where you failed before and it was it was subtle and it was quiet and everybody had great regard for them and I always watched out for guys that
did stuff like that yeah just learn from what they did it's I'm assuming what they did is they just got really good at disarming the pro the the the Bad guy where the bad guy let their guard down came more open because that's the first part right if you're forcing you're typically triggering resistance right when you force when you push you you get pushed back it's resistant so fight or flight in the brain are survival part of the brain as you know so any type of sales call or any type of bad guy or whatever
if you're going and trying to force or posture you're typically going to Trigger sales resistance most of the time yeah or some type of resistance what are your thoughts about sales training that talks about how you need to read personalities to make sales uh well um much of it is over complicated uh you do need you need to read emotions first yeah because yeah personalities and a lot of the stuff just so way over complicates things they're just real basics in humans and it it it doesn't matter the Personality gender ethnicity geography nothing um there's
a school of thought out there that I haven't seen anybody contradict that they're adjusting that you're born with five basic emotions as a human being and I think they anger fear disgust sadness and joy original equipment doesn't matter gender ethnicity religion geography nothing so that's what you need to start to read and then the other stuff that You were talking about how people interact with the world then triggers subsequent feelings I used to think the distinction between emotions and feelings was academic useless mumbo jumbo yeah now I appreciate the difference because you're born with five
emotions so number one uh everybody's got that original equipment you want to read that yeah number two the important thing about that is of if those are the five four out of five are Negative so people are driven largely by negative emotions and so if you're focusing on the positive only then you're leaving all these great tools of influence off the table yeah which is why timelines are much longer in building relationships yeah very true so how do navigate the the the negatives how do how do you deactivate them mhm um and if you read
that you don't need to worry about personalities yeah I I think trying to read Personalities in Sales especially for new salese is almost impossible because it's a you're trying to like there's seven different personalities or five or whatever book they've read and within a five minute conversation on the phone they're trying to you know is this a person this or it's it's you can't duplicate that in a company you might have a few salespeople that eventually learn that most can't if you focus more on what you're talking about about reading their tone right or You
know uh listening for patterns or you know if you're in person or virtually you know looking at their body language that's going to tell you far more in my mind uh than their personality because I I believe like if you ask the right questions at the right time with the right tone the context right of the tone because you're not going to have a challenging tone in the first two minutes of a conversation where you don't have much trust or uh uh Credibility right uh it's more of a curious tone you know and if they
say something let's say if I'm selling life insurance you know I don't know if you've ever heard this but life insurance is a big space for us is our probably the biggest industry train in the world and a lot of life insurance salese will say like what what caused you to to look at a life insurance policy and the the prospect like well my you know Aunt just died and most C these People that sell L like oh I'm sorry to hear that now let me ask you and it's just like right what what do
you know you might have had a salesperson where you said something that was really bad that happened to you and they're like oh I'm sorry to hear that and they just go to the next question what's the first thing in your mind you're not listening to you're not listening you don't give a about me right so instantly your guards up right salesperson so instead Like oh what what actually happened your tone concern tone you empathy oh well he died of this blah blah oh gosh did did their family have a policy or what happened to
the family and you're just probing right but the prospect on the intern feels like wow they care like and then that trust that Bond starts to form you know just by shifting your tone but if I'm like oh well what actually happened doesn't do anything because that Tone's kind of like just in your Face it's like monotone you know okay so a couple more questions here so uh what's it I always pronounce his name having on podcast bo uh it's uh it's Robert called Chini Chini yeah he's only in a couple weeks in his book
persuasion talks a lot about social persuasion what are some really good tips that maybe salespeople can do to maybe increase their social persuasion for business um just generally across the board um it's combination of two things And uh I heard a stat a long time ago that I believe in it's you're six times more likely to make a deal with somebody you like so how likable are you and a lot of that has to do with is your energy putting people off are you too aggressive yeah um how much you smile uh how much you
let people talk and then to the point you were making a moment ago what evidence are you giving Them that you listened yeah like you might have listened yeah but if you don't give any evidence you did yeah then they're not going to know yeah so you if you when you're genuinely interested in somebody interesting people are interested yeah you you you take the time to find out about people so almost some of the cliche stuff that mom was trying to get through our head when we were little yeah and and in point of fact
then then that starts to Accelerate you among the people that are not taking the time to do that do you feel like there's a difference between liking someone and trusting someone yeah because there are a lot of people that you like that you don't don't trust trust is about predictability uh and I can I can remember particular uh when I was on a FBI NPD joint terrorist task force in New York City yeah there was one particular sergeant that all the Detectives liked and none of them trusted him to yeah they might liked him because
maybe like he's a cool guy gonna go to the game have a beer like my best friend but they might not have trusted that he could give his job done they were he was fun to hang around with but you know also yeah you know would he protect them if they made a mistake is he going to bury him or is he going to look out for him it's the same concept because and and I love uh who said it People buy from people they know like and Trust I agree with that just in a
different sense I think most salespeople misinterpret who who said that what's his name How to Win Friends and Influence oh uh you know what I'm talking yeah that would be coneg right d coneg yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah I think most salese misinterpret what that means because they feel like oh I got to get the prospect to like me so they talk about oh you went here they see a Picture in the office oh I I love to fish or you know I love to do this or like they're they're trying to like get
the prospect to like them but most prospects see through that they feel like it's fake I would say people buy from people they trust can get them the best result they don't necessarily buy just because they like you to me those are two very different things I would agree so let's say like I'll give you an I always give An example like okay let's say that you're somebody comes up to you and wants to start a business with you let's say it's President Obama President Obama comes wants to start a business with you you're like
ah you know I'm not really sure then president Trump comes to you you might not like Trump but you might trust that he if he started a business with you that it would be better than Obama you might like Obama better and want to hang out with them cuz you like Him you want to go to the game with him he's cool he's got all the celebrities but you might trust Trump more in a business setting than Obama even though you like Obama more right right right you see what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah always
what wa you know what do we know I heard that Trump doesn't doesn't drink at all we know Obama at least crack a beer every now and then so I might have a beer with Obama but with Trum exactly you might hey I want to go to the game He's Obama's awesome and I would say that I want to hang out with proba lot fun at a game celebrities fun he's awesome but if both came with a business idea I might trust Trump could get a better result even though maybe I liked Obama way better
right and I think a lot of salespeople just have that Miss in line trust is built by the quality of questions you ask that get that person to really think through and internalize their situation and how you use your Tone that gets them to let their guard down emotionally open up that's how they bond and trust that you can get the best result because they because you're able to like take you know how to say people they'll follow a script right right and the prospect will say something and they'll just ask the next question on
the script and the prospect's kind of like I I just answer that I just I I just already told you because most those people don't know how to take the data Or the information the prospect is giving them and then tweak the next question on the Fly where the prospect feels like oh he or she gets me like they understand my situation the most and I always say when probably negotiating too or in sales when that person or Company Feel feel like you understand their situation the most they trust you can get them the best
result yeah all right uh where do you want to take your company where do you want to Go with black SW we just want to keep coaching and training like at all levels and uh globally yeah um the book is uh Works in every country on Earth and why does it work in every country because a lot of people like well you know with any type of negotiation or sales train like oh well my country is different you don't understand people in London they're more skeptical or you know you don't understand people over here in
you know Norway they just don't Think like Americans or oh you don't understand people that Argentina they're just different what would you say to those people well you're born with five emotions yeah no matter who you who you are yeah number one number two the neurochemistry in your brain reacts the same yeah no matter who you are where you are yeah and if you understand those two things and empathy is is really about respecting where the other side's coming from yeah so I'm going to respect Where norwegian's coming from yeah I'm going to show them
that I understand and resp respect him by feeding it back a Norwegian a German Italian it doesn't make it a Russian Ukrainian um you know a Palestinian yeah they're all human they're you're s they want you to know yeah where they're coming from and how how do you know the only way you can demonstrate it is repeating to them yeah and everybody reacts the same yeah it's it's just Human behavior 10one like if you s of humans what Chris is talking about will work because you're selling to humans sell it's just human nature uh Chris
where can they go to learn more about you maybe maybe they're a CEO wanting to bring your company in to teach better negotiation communication skills maybe they're an individual Sal person where they go to learn more about what you do Black Swan ltd.com is a website b a c k s w n LT the.com okay and we get you uh We got a lot of free stuff we got a uh a newsletter that comes out uh negotiation Master at Tuesday Mornings actionable concise you can choose to sign up for that yeah okay there's a bunch
of stuff you can download at some point in time when you're starting to get better we do coaching in-person coaching okay we coach people on on deals you know it's not cheap sure what's the biggest deal you help coach through that a client is one uh $300 million $300 million Probably worth the funding that they invested in your training to get the $300 million deal yeah yeah so at some point in time you're going to need the live training you know any anytime you go and focused on something for two days you make a Quantum
Leap in your abilities I agree and we've got a in March right them uh St Patrick's Day we got a two-day uh inperson live training we're doing in Louisville Kentucky okay good all right so we're going to have His uh website in the show notes go there check out Chris I can assure you you're going to learn things from his training materials that will help you negotiate more sell more persuade more and look if you have questions okay so a lot of you leave comments all right and I just don't have time to get back
to you easiest way to get a hold of me is simply text me all right so I'm going to put the number up here it's 48637 2944 so just text me 48637 2944 And typically when I do that I have myself a couple of our sales trainers standing by and just give some time sometimes takes a couple minutes but we'll answer your questions Chris thanks for being on the show thanks appreciate it anytime
