Inside the Freemasons HQ: The secretive society accused of ‘ruling the world’

That's one thing, isn't it? That Freemasons are humanoid reptiles. Yeah.

Are you a humanoid reptile? Wow. Look at this.

So, there is Masonic representation on the moon. That really is spreading the chips, isn't it? And what does the actual initiation ceremony?

What does that involve? If people [music] want to go on to Google and they want to find that out and ruin it for themselves, that's up to them. What do you know that I don't know?

Very little, I imagine. This is incredible. And there's the eye.

So, a lot of people like to sort of assume that it means, you know, the Freemasons are sort of always watching. I've never read that myself. Are you covering up the world is flat?

We're covering up the world is flat. Was the landing on the moon? Was it fit by the Freemasons?

It wasn't. No. Not as far as I'm aware.

You sure? Can I? Yeah.

No. The Metropolitan Police are considering whether to make being a member of the Freemasons, a declarable organization for officers. I thought that we could use this as a bit of an opportunity to have a chat about this mysterious organization, its history, the shadowy nature of it, and what role it really plays in modern society.

This is Times Radio. So, a few weeks ago, I was talking on my radio show about the Freemasons, the historical secretive society. Who are they really, and do they run the world?

The next morning, I woke up to an email from a Freemason, but not just any old Freemason, a guy called Adrien Marsh, the grand secretary of the United Lodge of England, the head honcho of all of the Freemasons. He said he'd listened to the show the night before, and if I was interested in the Freemasons, why don't I come along to this place? This is the United Lodge of England.

This is the headquarters of the secretive society that is the Freemasons in Covent Garden. He said to come along, so I said yes. The Freemasons are one of the oldest fraternal organizations in the world.

Their history traces as far back as the 14th century and grew from the medieval guilds of stonemasonry. Membership is secretive, but high-profile Masons have included members of the royal family, prime ministers, business leaders, and at least 14 presidents. The Freemasons have often been accused of covertly ruling the world.

Their secretive rituals and use of mysterious symbols has made them one of the main characters in countless conspiracy theories. Some people suggest that Freemasons are controlling governments to bring about a new world order. Others claim that Freemasons are humanoid reptiles covering up that the world is flat.

Recently, a more realistic accusation has emerged that Masons in positions of authority have been covering for each other. Do you know how I get in this building? Around the corner.

Okay, thank you. The Metropolitan Police are considering making their officers declare if they are members of the Brotherhood after a report that criticized their secrecy. The clock below the tower commemorates the 250th anniversary of the foundation of the original Grand Lodge on the 24th of June 1717.

1717. This has got so much history, but throughout that whole history, there's always been this sort of air of mystery about the Freemasons, about why they really gather, who they really are, and and what they're really doing. Whatever the truth, the Freemasons are fascinating and mysterious.

And now I get to go inside. This looks more like it. Oh.

Um, we're here to meet Sha Shan the um Sean Butler. Sean Butler. Yes.

Welcome to stop filming. Come in and we can call you. We have to stop filming here.

Yes. Okay. After being told to stop filming, we were met by Sha Butler, the United Grand Lodge of England's head of memberships and communications.

Let's go up to the museum first. Okay, we'll have a walk through and I've got a nice little route planned so you can see everything. Brilliant.

Okay, let's go for it. Excellent. So, the building itself was originally a war memorial to the thousands of Freemasons who were killed in the First World War and people can just come in here, right?

So, you can just six days a week, open to the public. So, this is our shop. You'll see a number of the different types of Masonic regalia.

When I say regalia, those are the aprons that we wear. Those are on display there. So anyone could come and buy one of those.

Surely you have to be a Freemason, do you not to wear the Buff Gad up? No. I mean, if someone wants in the comfort of their own home to dress up like a Freemason, there's nothing stopping them from doing so.

Right. Should we go along to the museum? Yes.

Okay. What's down here? The book that you see in front of you here, the Constitution of the Freemasons.

This is from 1723. So this is really the rule book that governs Freemasonry from its earliest point. And this is this is the original.

This is one of the originals. Yeah. Wow.

Uh this was seen very much as a cornerstone for the United States Constitution. Yes. Um because a number of the founding fathers were were Freemasons and several of the principles included in here you can then see replicated in the in the uh the Declaration of Independence.

George Washington George Washington Benjamin Franklin. Yeah. Yeah.

All of them uh all of them very passionate Freemasons. This is a mega throne. This is a mega throne.

I've never seen a chair than this. This is what I expected to find today. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, this mega throne. So, what was the what was the idea behind the throne? Well, I mean, and you'll see this when we go around the the the other Masonic lodge rooms in the building.

The throne really is is is a cornerstone to the structure of a lot of the meetings. So, the person who governs the meeting, what we call the worshipful master, he will have a throne or a special seat which he sits in in every meeting. In every room, we'll see one at the end of this room actually.

So, this is the United Grand Lodge of England. Where does that sit in the sort of hierarchy of the world? It's the oldest Masonic Grand Lodge in the world.

What we have is we have provinces. We have 48 provinces. So that's areas within England, Wales, the aisle of man, and the Channel Islands.

Yeah. And then we have 32 what we call districts which are spread across the world. So we have districts in South America, we have districts in Europe, we have districts in Africa, the Far East.

So it's all English freemasonary spread across the world. How many actual Freemasons are there? Around 6 million.

Six million. Six million. Yeah.

Wow. This was actually the master mason's apron that belonged to Winston Churchill. Wow.

This is his this is Winston Churchill's apron. You can see his his case just here. How many other prime ministers have been Freemasons?

I I think it's George Canning who was a Freemason in the 1800s. Other than that, nobody. And are there many politicians now who are Freemasons?

No, not that I'm aware of. I mean, and you're the membership guy, so you would know. I would I would probably know.

In 2018, The Guardian reported on two lodges set up 80 years ago in Westminster to recruit members of Parliament and influential political journalists to the Brotherhood. There was a whole thing, wasn't there a few years ago, about this lodge in Westminster. What was the story with that?

It was It's an interesting one there cuz it's a great example of how these misconceptions can, you know, imagine sort of like a snowball, small snowball at the top of the hill, rolls down a snowy hill by the time it's a massive snowball. You know, the reality of that is there are a number of inaccuracies within that particular story. Okay.

Um, you know, the lodge itself, uh, meets here in Camden. Doesn't even meet in Westminster. Um, we checked at the time there were there were no current serving members of parliament who were member of that of the the lodge, New Welcome Lodge, which was a lodge that was referenced.

And the press pack lodge that you referenced, there were no members of the press pack that were members of that lodge. What you had really was sort of retired security guards that used to work in, you know, houses of parliament, that sort of thing. I just sort of find it slightly hard to believe that there are no members of parliament.

600 members of parliament, hundreds of thousands of people do I couldn't say there were no members of parliament. I don't know that. I don't know for a fact where there aren't.

But certainly as members of that lodge, there are no there are no members of parliament. But well, there could be me. There could be members of parliament.

There could well be. Yeah. But as I say, it's just not important for us.

But you wouldn't you wouldn't know that. No, it's not important for us. So this is the library.

This is the library. But very quickly, this is a really cool little piece of information. Buzz Aldrin, who was obviously one of the first men on the moon, was himself a Freemason.

And before he went, he sent a letter to his grand lodge, which was the Grand Lodge of Texas. And to mark the amazing achievement, he actually said to Buzz Ordering, "Could you claim Masonic jurisdiction over the moon? " Uh, and he did.

So, there is Masonic representation on the moon. That really is spreading the chips, isn't it? Was the landing on the moon was that was that faked?

Not as far as I'm aware. Was it faked by the Freemasons? It wasn't.

No, not as far as I'm aware. Sure. Well, I Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

I'm pretty sure. Trust me, Freemasons struggle to organize a dinner for themselves of an evening. I think faking a moon landing would be a a tad a tad tad of a stretch.

I don't think there's a conspiracy theory that Freemasonry doesn't get wrapped up in to be honest. What What are the ones that sort of frustrate you the most? Oh gosh.

Where Well, the obvious one for me is the incorrect suggestion that women can't be Freemasons. So, there are two female Grand Lodges and one male Grand Lodge. Are there are there some lodges that women can't be members of?

Yes. So, United Grand Lodge of England is men only. Right.

Let's go through it. when we have one of our four big annual meetings, they will get their regalia and their aprons on in here. You know, there's some interesting portraits, monarchs.

So, a lot of a lot of royal links to Freemasons. Yeah, there there is a connection there certainly, which continues to this day, as I say, with his Royal Highness, the Duke of Kent is our grandmaster. Duke of Kent.

Is the king is the king of a Freemason? King's not a Freemason. No.

Prince Wales William. Not a Freemason. Harry.

Nope. No. No.

The only senior Freemasons are Duke of Kent and his brother Prince Michael of Kent. I was saying earlier that this building was originally constructed as a peace memorial. Yeah.

And at the very center of that peace memorial is this shrine. Uh and the shrine is in memory of those free nations that we spoke about who lost their lives in the first world war. How many special do you think?

Thousands. Over 3,000. Over 3,000.

Over 3,000. Yeah. And that was in the first world war.

In the first world war there was a there was a thing wasn't there about Hitler and Freemasons and also I think Franco and and Mussolini also like the sort of fascist dictators of the 1930s really had it in for the Freemasons. They did. I think you know it's a lack of understanding certainly and and we certainly see throughout the reign of the Nazi party that the misconceptions the fabrications the lies about Freemasonry play a very prevalent part in a lot of the propaganda.

Uh and Hitler actually described it as a as part of a global Judeo conspiracy. Yeah. So what you see there is a clear attempt to you know conflate Freemasonry and Judaism.

Yeah. uh as a sort of enemy of the state. And yeah, we know that tens of thousands of Freemasons were killed in concentration camps, which to be honest with you, I think goes some way to understanding why Freemasonry has been reticent in the past about being open and talking as openly as we are now because there was a real genuine fear uh quite rightly and substantiated reason to be concerned about well-being.

You know, there was a point where the Nazis had invaded the Channel Islands. The Masonic Temple in Jersey was ransacked. We know that people from Jersey were taken to concentration camps in Europe.

And at one point, it looked very likely that we would be next on in in the mainland. The events of the 30s and the 40s just meant that that had to change. As I say, for the sake of of saving lives, it had to change.

So quite a lot of that that sort of 1930s sort of fascism, Freemasons getting sort of get, you know, getting persecuted, literally persecuted and the conflation with with Jews and some of the conspiracy theories around around Jews and things are kind of back, right? Like that, you know, it feels like that persecution is sort of starting to happen again. Do you feel is that happening with with the Freemasons?

I mean I mean and do do you feel unsafe ever? I think you only need to type in the word Freemasons on X, for example, to see some of the uh violent rhetoric that's sometimes leveled against Freemasonry. Um, and that that can be worrying.

It can be concerning. But as I say, our focus is is trying to turn those misconceptions around. And we do that, we think, by talking about all the great things that Freemasonry does to try and address those common misconceptions using the new channels of communication that's available to us.

And we know that's not going to happen overnight. Do you ever feel a bit unsafe? Do you sort of look over your shoulder occasionally?

Occasionally. Occasionally I do. Um, you know, again this is it's serious stuff and I think actually social media now has given people a platform to act and behave in a way that uh I think they wouldn't do.

I would hope they wouldn't do if you were stood in front of them or having a regular conversation with them. But it does happen, doesn't it? It does happen, you know, and and it's, you know, something that that we have to be wary of.

It it is. For all the effort Sha was making to be more open, there are still rituals and traditions that are shrouded in secrecy. I was wondering if it was inevitable that people would fill the gap with their own theories.

Will each of the doors individually weigh about a ton and a half each? Can I touch it? You can.

Yeah. Wow. Look at this.

Wow. This is incredible. Look at that ceiling and the thrones.

So this is the grand temple. So this is the main Masonic lodge room in Freemason's Hall. There aren't many sort of lodge meetings that take place in here a year.

You're looking at four uh big meetings which we call the quarterly communication. And then there's another one which we call annual investature which is where people get their you know uh promotions or they get their new appointments to what we call grand rank which is a very special thing for a freemason. And what does the actual initiation like ceremony?

What does that involve? Well I mean so I would encourage you Darl to come and join and find out exactly what it involves. But as I say there's is that an is that an offer?

It is. I mean, if you're interested, exactly. You know, we're more than happy to to help you out with that.

But, you know, someone will come in and they'll be led around the room and there'll be different things that blindfolded. They are blindfolded. Yes, that's true.

And again, what you've got to remember is part, you know, these ceremonies that we enjoy as Freemasons, they're 300 years old. Yeah. you know, and just like with, you know, the opening of the house of of, you know, the state opening of parliament, the coronation of of a new monarch, you know, things that that have its roots, you know, in tradition and in history, there are going to be things that nowadays we might think are a little bit different.

Um, but that's part of the enjoyment for a lot of people. Yeah. You know, and having that direct link back to what our, you know, predecessors and our ancestors were doing 300 years ago is a huge part of the enjoyment, uh, with with Freemasonry.

Okay. So, I' I'd be brought in. I'd be I'd be I'd be taken around.

I'd be blindfolded. Yes. Taken around.

Then what happens next? Well, that is that is like that the equivalent for that would be if we were to go into a cinema Yeah. to go and see a film.

If I was to ruin the ending for you before we went into the film. So, I'm not going to do that. But that bit is a secret.

That that bit's private. What we would encourage people to do, not a secret. I don't think I wouldn't class it as a secret.

No. Because you could go on to Google and find out. If I'd have had that experience ruined for me before I'd done it, it would have taken so much of the enjoyment out of it.

So purely it's that, as I said, if people want to go on to Google and they want to find that out and ruin it for themselves, that's up to them. You're not giving any secrets, unfortunately. Not like, you know, when the president becomes president and suddenly to tell them where the where the aliens are and that kind of thing.

Nothing like that, I'm afraid. No, nothing like that. And how do you become the kind of person who sits on the throne?

Then what I hadn't realized was that one of the people who usually sits on that stage, Adrien Marsh, the grand secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, was right behind us. It is very grand. It's good, isn't it?

We're just being joined by Adrien Marsh. Actually, listening. [laughter] Lovely to meet you.

Very well. Good to meet you. Thank you for having us.

As the Freemason's grand secretary, Adrien Marsh has been one of the most outspoken critics of people being made to declare that they are part of the Brotherhood. But I couldn't shake the feeling that it was possible influential Masons like those in the police could be covering for each other. How much control do they really have over how members use their relationships?

It's a point I wanted to put to Adrien. I also wanted to know how he felt about the Freemason's secretive rituals and symbols being at the center of so many conspiracy theories. the centinery um celebration at the Royal Albert Hall in 2017, but it was it was designed to just give a a history of the basically the 300 years effectively.

And there's the eye. So that's I think I think that's the first time I've seen the eye since since we got here. So what is what is what is the history of the eye then?

Cuz that's kind of that's sort of like one of the most contentious not contentious but maybe one of the most misunderstood sort of bits. It means a lot of things to different people and you the convention that I would always look at is that when you're trying to create an organization that's secular so you can't have a you know a a defi defined god as you would in a religion it's something that says that actually you know your actions and deeds are observed and you know you will have a uh a reconciliation of your life at some point you do have to believe in a supreme being do you yeah it's important that you have a faith because a faith will guide your moral ity and your your value set typically and historically. So we've always said that you need to have faith in something but we we really don't mind what but you know to have a to have an active value set that's driven by your beliefs and your adherence to rules of law and you know society in general.

So a lot of people like to sort of assume that it means you know the Freemasons are sort of always watching. It's been [laughter] a real It's been a pain right? It's been a real pain, hasn't it, for you this?

I've never read that myself, but now you saying it, it wouldn't surprise me because it's uh it's just one of those great uh great myths that you do read about. I was curious about Adrian. How do you become the grand secretary of one of the world's oldest societies?

I was retiring from say my career in industry and I was asked would I consider joining here and being the grand secretary and it wasn't something that even even crossed my m mind in whatever wild dreams I may have had at the time and and I talked to Jonathan Spence who was our program master at the time about what he wanted to do. Did I like the organization? I think that we could get it growing again, making it a value to members and particularly in a world now where you have a lot of young people who are you quite often not interacting on a daily basis other than on teams or Zoom.

We're an organization that outside of maybe your family or occasionally religious group. We actually have multigenerational communication and and loneliness, young male, young female, loneliness is is a huge issue at the moment. And we do provide something that gives people a chance to have a degree of social interaction which they might not ordinarily.

I was still intrigued about the Freemason's mysterious initiation ceremony. I was hoping Adrian might be more forthcoming. I think we got to blindfold and being taken through the room, but from there it's off limits.

Yeah, it's I mean I sort of understand the the sort of theater of it really and so you can go online, you can find out [clears throat] anything you want, but part of the um enjoyment of it doesn't suit everybody. It's not everybody's cup of tea, but but people who do like a little bit of tradition, a little bit of theater, going around in a ceremony where certain things are being pointed out and the language is quite traditional, old English language, it's is quite moving and quite powerful. And why does it have to be a secret?

Why does it have to be so secretive? I don't think it really is. But my interpretation of of of it is is is back to your values.

Do you really believe in something? Are you prepared to put your name to it and take an oath on it that that this is how you know you would want to behave and you'd want others to behave to you? The the secrecy is again it's not really there's nothing that's secret.

There is nothing that's secret. So the theater is kept as the you so you don't you don't you don't learn something tell me but you don't you don't learn something in that in that moment. No, not just going to No, no, no, no.

It's it's simply a symbolism about Yeah. holding something dear to your heart and being prepared to maintain that um value. Um and there's a there's a is the handshake.

Is there a handshake? There is indeed. There is.

Yeah. Could would you do the handshake? I did when I came in when we shook hands out.

You shook my hand. Did you? Yeah.

Are you serious? I didn't even I didn't even notice. There you go.

Are you serious? That's the myth, isn't it? Are you serious?

Of course. There was something. Can we do it again?

No. Oh, no. Are you serious?

It's a handshake. It's a handshake. But so, but just be clear.

You did something in that handshake. I shook your hand in a masonic way. In a masonic way.

Yeah. And you wouldn't had a clue? I don't have a clue when someone shakes my hand.

So, if one Freemason [music] greets another Freemason in a in the anywhere, there there is a specific way in which they shake their hand. There could be. Yeah.

Yeah. There could be. There could be.

Or there is. Well, I do. Depending on the person.

Depending on the person. Yeah. I mean, if you wanted to overly exaggerate something, you could do for sure.

I sort of feel a bit confused. I know. Well, you have to join.

Have I become Have I become a Freemason? Is that what happened? [laughter] You're not going to leave now, are you?

Exactly. Are you quite You're quite powerful. You're the grand secretary of the United Lodge.

Grand Lodge. The Grand Lodge of England. The United Grand Lodge.

Grand United Lodge. United Grand Lodge of England. United Grand Lodge of England.

Wales. That's um that's a big gig. If you were to send somebody in a position of power an email or would you get it?

Do do you know what I mean though? Like do you get a hearing? What about maybe like like a prime minister or a secretary of state?

It would depend what it was about. But if it was something related to a matter of consultation, yeah. Yeah, I would expect that to be um received and acknowledged and whether it's acted or not, I can't answer.

But yeah, you would get that. What about the prime minister? I've never written to the prime minister, but I suspect it would be it would end up in whatever bureaucratic channel that would be dealing with it.

I'm not I'm not being sort of facicious or or or or global flippant just trying to understand sure the sort of the the the influence not in a sort of you know kind of conspiratorial sort of way but what sort of influence do you as an organization and you as the head of the organization have? Limited. I mean we are 170,000 members.

If you look at it from a political perspective we don't have a political clout. Um if it was to do with um a charity that we were fundraising for, then yeah, I'd expect to have um at least a dialogue about you know the money we've raised and what it was going towards. How frustrating do you find the sort of what you would regard as misinformation and and the sort of conspiracy theories that float around the Freemasons?

I think it's a great shame because I think it does cast the wrong light on things. I think it's it's very misinformed. Are they all all inaccurate?

Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah. I mean all is is a very all embracing term.

So I mean I haven't read everything but but certainly the things that we saw recently one of the ones um with the Met Police as part of their consultation exercise when you know it was well there's a perception that people's promotions are influenced. I said but really I mean you have that's possible. Is that that's is that possible?

I don't think so because legally anyone who would have an interest would have to declare the same as if it was your church group or your golf club member. You know, if you knew somebody who was connected to a decision-making process, you would have to declare it. It was a report into how police handled the unsolved murder of investigative journalist Daniel Morgan that recommended making officers declare if they are Freemasons.

Daniel Morgan was a private investigator who was murdered with an axe in 1987. When the police were unable to find a killer, a report found that the Met was institutionally corrupt and had repeatedly covered up its failings. It pointed out that 10 of the police officers who were prominent in the investigations were Freemasons.

And while it found that membership of the Freemasons was not a factor in Daniel's murder, and it found no evidence that Masonic channels were corruptly used, it did say that some officers being members was a source of recurring suspicion and mistrust. And that there were doubts as to whether Masonic loyalties, which all Freemasons swear to uphold, might present a conflict of interest. The perception is for sort of one Metropolitan police officer may cover for another Metropolitan police officer or a police officer, you know, in any kind of or or anybody really and in a position of power in an organization because they are Freemasons.

Not necessarily that's a sort of dictat from above or that that's, you know, authorized by you or that it's in it's in the constitution of the Freemasons, but just because I suppose if you are part of an organization and another person's part of an organization, maybe just naturally that happens accidentally it happens. I I think you have to be really clear on what would be a motivation for someone to act in in super bad faith or be a bad actor. And it wouldn't be because they're a membership of a particular organization unless that organization had great rewards that came with it.

So if you were in a an investment club or whatever and your membership and your your wealth was was was created on it going forward. Yeah, I could see possibly then you'd have some sort of mutually vested interest. But a mutually vested interest in that you're a member of a club.

I'm not sure. I I can't see how that plays myself. Do do Freemasons kind of look look out for other Freemasons?

Is that is that a part of the process? I think Freemasons look out for people in society. So, you know, in terms of if you were concerned that someone was being impoverished or you disadvantaged from a health perspective, would you look at would you look after them?

Yeah, of course you would. But but I wouldn't say I you know if if if confronted with a choice if someone's a freemason someone's not would I oh go for the no not at all it would go for the the cause that's the greatest is it sort of possible that that some members of the freemasons kind of misinterpret being a part of the freemasons in that way and would have that I would say categorically not that there's no ability to misinterpret it's super clear and when you were talking about obligations earlier the key obligations all around the opposite of what you've just described so so that would be more than unusual. That would be just just just wouldn't Yeah, it wouldn't you would not be any there's no ambiguity is what I'm trying to spit out um at all.

It's it's it could not be clearer that that's not expected. It's not countenance and if we ever found out we would throw someone out in my opinion that there's no advantage for it either. So in yeah I was a finance director so yeah I think in terms of risk and and consequences and why would someone do something that have to be you a benefit of sorts and either the benefit is that you know we're you know we are siblings and therefore as a sibling you I protect a sibling or my child or my parents yeah I can see a familiar bond that you operate under and so that that would probably apply though wouldn't it to to Freemasons if you're both part of this the same you know brotherhood the same kind of organization No, but that's that's no different to saying if you're part of the same, you know, you go to the same pub, you you're part of a quiz team.

It's not really. It's it's actually not really because you're still a member of a membership organization and there's nothing unless you join a membership organization that specifically says you must act together. You can't ever let which we don't.

We're super clear the opposite. Look, the police have looked into this for 40 years, 50 years, 60 years, and there's never been any evidence at all. But if if there's sort of inherently a secrecy about it, that may hinder them getting a clear view.

But there isn't any. What's the secrecy? Well, police officers not not saying not declaring that they're members of the freedom.

But you don't have to declare you're a member of anything in the police. You don't have to declare you're in a particular church and a golf club. If there's a legal reason why that declaration is important because there's a proven factor and a and a connection, then yeah, you'd have to.

If there's a conflict of interest or that that your decision could be prejudiced because of something, yes, of course, you have to declare. But you know there are reasons why the laws of Great Britain are the laws of Great Britain and the laws of free association are around and you know a lot of them date back to the 30s and 40s where in parts of Europe that wasn't the case and you would have to declare your religion your organization that you're a membership of and and you know history dictates what that what sort of environment that created. So you you cannot legislate for perception.

You have to legislate for for legal fact and fact-based things. Otherwise the society breaks. And obviously people presume that the Freemasons are basically running the world.

Yeah. And you can talk to someone and people believe that members of a certain church or religious group are running the world. They believe that lizards are in some, you know, it's it's weird as it sounds.

That's one thing, isn't it? That Freemasons are humanoid reptiles. Yeah.

Are you a humanoid reptile? What do you know that I don't know? Very little, I imagine.

I Yeah. No. Are you covering up the world is flat?

Are we covering up the world is flat? Now you're getting into some really serious secrets. No, of course not.

I mean, what we what we're about is saying that as a society, we want people to feel inclusive and be included and support the communities and and their fellow mankind. That's all we're saying. Some people genuinely think that the Freemasons were involved in the murder of JFK or that they are covering up secrets or that and and you know Freemasons have throughout history have been kind of persecuted and I I wondered if that ever you ever sort of feel that at your door a little bit.

No, I don't. Not living in our country. I don't.

But I could see how you could get to that, you know, that step if if things changed and if you know perceptions were reinforced in the same way as they were you in Nazi Germany when Freemasons for whatever reason were put in concentration camps and executed. You don't feel sort of targeted maybe. Were you the grand secretary of an organization that a lot of people hold accountable for things and [music] you know feel are have undue influence in the world?

When you say number, you know, a number of people will think things about a lot of different things in life. And when again, we're not dictated to by, you know, a series of minority opinions. We're dictated to by, you know, the general population and, you know, a belief that in the end sort of a large number of fair-minded people manage our democracy and and support our democracy.

So, they Thank you for having me, Sean. No worries. It's been a pleasure.

I'm watching very closely for uh that was that was just a normal. Okay, fine. Thank you, Sean.

See you soon. Take care. See you.

It's hard to know really what to think about the Freemasons. I mean, this is an absolutely beautiful building so full of like majesty and opulence and they're trying everything they can clearly to try to shake off this idea that it is a mysterious secret society who secretly run the world. a conversation I had with one Freemason.

He didn't want to be on camera, but he said something really interesting, which was that, you know, for him it's about sort of community and belonging and coming together with friends and the historical element, the rituals of it, the bit that is kind of weird and mysterious, the blindfolds and and and and the the earths. He he said all of those things were sort of rooted in history and tradition and gave him a sense of certainty in a world that is lacking certainty. But I wonder if there's something inevitable about people concluding that they are part of a global conspiracy to run the world when there are so many mysterious bits.

Maybe you just can't have a secret society in this day and age without people filling the vacuum that you leave with nefarious intent, conspiracy theories, wild ideas. In any case, it is a beautiful building.