14 Hours of Ageless Wisdom by Dr. Kapil Gupta MD | Kapil Gupta & Moe Abdou Compilation

Capil Gupta is a personal adviser to some of the world's most successful CEOs professional athletes and entertainers and as you're about to find out his advice is uh not conventional to say the least so capil great to be with you thank you Mo pleasure to be here you are certainly one who is as Ironclad about his view of the world and life in general as anyone that have met so for those hearing us have this Conversation for the first time what is the most important thing that people need to know about you the most direct

answer I can give is that my God is the truth elaborate on that for me in every problem in every situation in every circumstance in every deep life issue there is always a truth there are ways that you can go left or right there are things that you can advise for and Advise against there are advantages and disadvantages but there's always a truth and the truth is never logistic and the truth is never mechanical and it isn't one decision that's more right than another decision it is about where that decision comes from it is the

source of the decision which categorizes it as truth or not so that is my Holy Grail that is my mode of attack in all things so when you're sitting down and talking with Someone that and obviously the people you work with have had great achievements in life what you've just said sounds so logical yet seems so elusive to most of us we none of us want to think that we're not living our truth but the truth of the matter no pun intended is that we're not what are we missing the desire to know the truth

it isn't about it isn't about a methodology it isn't about a way it is just That human beings generally are not interested in the truth it does doesn't motivate them it doesn't Inspire them um there is a small subset who insist upon it and those are the ones who find it and those are the ones who resonate with it um the rest of them simply ask for prescriptions which I am profoundly and categorically Against so for the majority then what are we running away from what are we afraid of I think it's I think avoidance

is a very comfortable way to live um I think asking someone for the answer is a a very safe way to live which ends up being very dangerous in the end um you know I don't I don't think that it really is About being afraid I think it just comes down to DNA and I and I don't mean biological DNA I mean I mean sensibility DNA ones one's natural bent towards things um there are just those people who for whatever inexplicable reason are are just gravitate towards wanting to know they love to learn they they

crave The Knowing of the central nucleus of the matter and I don't think that really it has I Don't think that any conversation that stems around the masses and trying to get the masses to move and is a fruitful conversation I think it is much more about lateral moves and not vertical ones it it is it is difficult and almost futile to take someone and or attempt to take someone who has virtually no interest in the truth at all or only a curious sort of a passing curiosity in the truth and try to get that

person to dis to look for The truth that would be a vertical attempt a lateral attempt is someone who is already world class in what they do and by virtue of them being world class they already almost by definition have to be outside the box thinkers they tend to Buck the norm they tend to move against Society they do things their own way and that's exactly the DNA of the person who seeks the truth it is just that now they would be doing it in Arena but bringing All those Resources with them so I'm much

more interested in lateral moves than I am vertical one so when you ask a question which says what is everyone afraid of the implication the source of your question centers around the idea that we should say something in order to help the masses find what they are what it is they're running away from and if they discover that then we can help them on their way to the truth I have I have no interest in that life is very short I Am only interested in the people who are serious enough to begin with and therefore

need a small Catalyst to make a lateral move as opposed to a massive earthquake to make a vertical one so let's talk to the ladder let's assume for a moment we're only talking to the ladder and you said something to me last week that I want to dig a a little bit deeper in you said something to the effect that if I tell somebody the how to get wherever they want to go they'll Be stuck forever what do you mean by that yes all of society whether it is in the um what is it whether

is in technical instruction or spiritual matters or coaching or teaching or in business or in sports whatever it may be everyone functions off of an unstated premise and the reason it's unstated is that it's so accepted it's such a given that it doesn't even need to be stated and that is that in order for you to do X I will teach you how to do X now for some some ex some very very basic Technic things yes you can get away with that but those things don't have really much uh artistic significance um but there

there's a there's a massive problem with that the problem is that if you teach someone how to do something they will forever be asking You if the how that they employed is the correct how they will always come back and ask you was that right was this correct and I didn't get it that that my how was wrong and then you will say well yeah you didn't do it quite this way no no no you were a little bit off here as a result it's like leading a blind man towards a tree and he's forever

dependent upon you to tell him to walk to the left or the right and it's Getting colder or warmer until he gets there that is that is that is treating a human being like an invalid that is that is so disrespectful to the the Artistry and the Ingenuity that a human being is born with that it basically sabotages all of his efforts because teaching someone the how does not create art it creates dependency when your best relationships come to you your best your best clients I know they're more than clients to you but when your

best relationships comes to you what type of questions are they asking you if they're not asking you how what type of questions are they asking you they they do ask how but they very quickly learn not to as I did right I learn really quickly yes because it's well the Paradigm is so is so completely contrary it is so antithetical to society that it's it's Literally a part of the water so you know why do you ask me what kind of questions do they ask me why are you asking that because I'm curious for I'm

curious for two reasons number one I know that anyone one that you choose to work with is on a path to Greatness so they there is a gap that they sense that that's missing in their life number one and number two I know that the quality of of a person is in direct proportion to the quality of the questions he or She asks so for those two reasons I want to get a sense of one what are the common alties of some of these people that you're working with and what are they working towards uh

I I think it would I think it'll be instructive to give a the flavor it isn't so much the exact questions that they ask it is this it is the G here's the commonality it is the genuine desire to Know the need to learn is something that is a part and parcel with their DNA that is one of the greatest commonalities infinite Learners yes so I come but not infinite but but but but not infinite disciples and I and let me make a distinction um the person who is an infinite Disciple is the one who

doesn't really want to become a master he loves the role of disciple hood and he doesn't necessarily love the whole of love the role of disciple Hood because it allows him um an unending opportunity to learn it is much more about that's who I was meant to be that's where I feel comfortable I feel comfortable as this disciple where I shall remain forever as opposed to the One who truly wants to know he actually wants to become a master he doesn't want to become a professional disciple you have and have developed a very unique ability

to see something in people who you work with that they don't see in themselves which in and of itself leads to that Mastery what is that something that you see or that you look for that we most of us don't see Sincerity that is the single most important element that I look for in anyone are they sincere and by sincere um I don't mean if someone's a truth teller or if he tells fibs but I mean is by sincere do you really really really genuinely want that or are you playing a curiosity game I I

desire to work with individuals who Are truly sincere who are not looking for a tip who aren't looking for a quote hack to use modern modern vernacular it is it is a genuine desire to say yes I actually genuinely want that whatever that is is that pretty easy for you to notice you can sense sincerity pretty quickly yes and and the people I can sincerity even in emails oh yeah I can yeah but but you've developed a Really great skill for that and and I I suppose well I suppose you you are hyper attuned precisely

to those things that you look for in a laser-like fashion right sure are the people that you see that sincerity in are they surprised that they haven't noticed it themselves they're typically surprised that they haven't been sincere enough typically how it goes is that they F they catch themselves going Down the Curiosity sort of game and while there is the DNA for sincerity within them they lived in a society which preaches prescription for so long that they sort of you know have drunk that water and so they reflexively go down that path and begin to

ask questions like well how should I do that and what of the methodology of that and and then we always and I tell them in the first session we're going to circle back to Sincerity about 5,000 times over the next however many years and we always do and and the person always end ends up saying something like so we're right back to sincerity again aren't we yes we are we're always going to return to sincerity not as a prescription but because the only reason that you don't have what you want is because you didn't really

want it the only reason that you have the things that you Do is because you couldn't live without them and the only reason that you are where you are is because somewhere within you it is okay for you to be there and the Quest for Mastery is never ending right we're always in pursuit of that Mastery when do you get a sense I I you know I think the never ending thing is is more of a romanticized idea um uh uh I think that the person who really wants to be a master doesn't subscribe to

the notion that it's never ending um I think the one who doesn't really want it is the one who says it's never really ending because he doesn't really want that way to begin with so the person who really wants it he absolutely wants an endpoint so I'll messages on social media all the time about it's about the destination or the journey not the destination you know all These bumper sticker bumper sticker saying and you know like there's no genuiness behind it um it's it's what do you really want it is sitting with yourself in a

dark corner and saying what do I really really want and the answer that comes in the first seven seconds is never the right one it's it's it's a cultivation it's an exploration in order to discover that and without discovering it you chase ghosts is there a commonality to what People want that you work with is it success in however way they Define it I don't really think anybody wants success um I think every wants some everyone wants something whatever everyone wants is you it um the professional athlete will come looking for performance performance is what

he really Wants the CEO will come looking for peace peace isn't really what he really wants the want is never stated outright the thing that is verbalized is the the masquerader of the want the want has to be discovered never walks in the door and for those who are not going to have the privilege to work with you personally H how do they start on that Discovery if they are deadly serious about seeking that truth that you're talking about don't give them a prescription give them a a paint a picture for me of what it

takes for us to get on that path if you are really serious about finding the truth you will not find it difficult to throw every book you have about self-help in the trash you will not find it difficult to turn off the radio and to stop listening To gurus and to stop reading scriptures you will not hesitate one bit because those things do not speak the truth those things speaks prescription and bondage and adherence to a group and anything at all that involves a group is false all things arise in the individual from the individual

by way of the individual group think is nonsense group meditation is a farce all the things out there for meditation retreats to silent Retreats it's all a sham these are all Scams these are all fake gurus who line the banks at richu these are all people who raise their head and put a ponytail around it and put put paint on their face to masquerade as being a guru and they're all charlatans if you really speak the truth stop following anybody stop asking for prescriptions the moment that you have a how you have bondage you have

dependency you will get nowhere that is something That must be okay with you if you truly speak the truth it's okay with me so take me on that journey and speaking of that what do you notice as the biggest difference between the people that you work with who get closer to that truth do you see something in them is there a before and after they come to you today and they say hey I am deadly serious I know you're no [ __ ] I want to go on that path when do you start to see

a change in Them I will tell you the honest truth when I work with someone I never try to produce a change and when a change happens and it gets back to me that some I guess some you know big changes happen in their life no one is more surprised than me because I didn't try to make any change all we did was look at the issues before us dissect them take them apart Look at what's there and prescribe nothing fix nothing you do not need to fix anything you need to see everything and in

the scene in The Quiet examination the truth reveals itself so when I hear that someone has become calm and their wife tells them that they're totally different now or their their friends tell them how are you like this all of a sudden And believe me I'm I'm very surprised because I had no strategy to create that all things for me had happened organically all things with every client I had ever had happened organically they happened the way things always happen Never by a goal always is a fight effect is there one relationship that you worked

with that had just astonished you at the person that that individual has become As a result of your interaction yeah several give me one obviously without naming any names uh I've I've I've I've I've stopped drinking I've stopped using substances those kind of things and we never really discussed that ever I've um I've stopped I've St I've stopped speeding on the highway never in my life that I discuss speeding on the highway um when I when I when I eat I eat Slowly uh it seems that when I talk to someone I'm completely and totally

there now when I give a speech I have no idea what I'm going to say all all these things just materialize like like magic you know we talked about some common patterns amongst these individuals or amongst greatness in general that you're around are there common patterns of frustration that you find in those individuals who were again Deadly serious about that Pursuit yeah following the paths that they have followed to discover peace or Freedom or confidence or uh freedom from anxiety or whatever the frustration is is always a same it's always I've done all the meditations

and I've done the yoga and I've tried the Psychotherapy and I've read the books and I've I looked through the scriptures and I followed the relig and it didn't get me Anywhere that's a very very human staple of frustration well it got them somewhere right because they wouldn't be seeking out to you unless they have at least some level of success well when I say that they were looking at those things they were looking at those things on a personal level that's independent from their success in their profession so it's it's always interesting that where

what someone does In their profession they tend to do things in a different way in by way of prescription when they look into a different different element for instance you'll see someone who is a great CEO and then they'll come over to the site of golf for instance and they'll take golf lessons and the golf coach will tell them 16,000 different positions to memorize and they'll begin they'll become an invalid to memorize them when they know very well that exactly what Made them great in their own profession was that they went against all teachers and

all instructors and here they are doing the exact opposite of what made them great in their own profession so it's the same thing with something like spirituality where they come over here and said okay well in my profession I became great in my business I you know I I created Empires and now I come into spirituality now what are the Traditions that I should go through and that's when The floor falls out the Traditions are the meditations and the yogas and the and the you know uh Retreats and all this nonsense and never gets them

anywhere so they need to bring that same outside the box Buck the trend they hell with Society everyone is wrong the masses are always incorrect the prevailing Dogma is always wrong they need to bring that over here too because that applies to everything how do you define Success uh I think that definition game I don't know I mean English you know language is a is a fabricated creation so to to turn a word into truth I I don't I don't think that's very fruitful well well you know and I was going to ask you that

because I noticed in the times that we were together you're very careful with your language you're very careful with your words what words do you use to describe that sense of fulfillment or euphoria that you're Explaining yeah that's a good question um words the thing about words is that they always miss language is a very very ineffective tool for communication it's it's sort of like pping on an iPhone with a swollen finger it it's very imprecise it the word gets you into the area but it can never relate The Experience how do you explain the

experience you Adult you talk around it you provide some descriptive elements of it which I try to do one my discourses um uh but you can't explain the experience you can explain things in such a way which Inspire someone to go after the experience but uh you can never describe to someone the taste of chocolate can you at least give me a glimpse what do what do your best Relationship experience it's so elusive to the great majority of the world ask that again what do the great what what do the individuals you work with experience

as a result of working with you that's so elusive to the majority of the world I honestly I there's no way I can answer that question that's that's a question for them I only know what goes out from me I don't know how things are received on the receiving and they would Have to tell me uh um um but but I will tell you as for the experience I think the Ultimate Experience is the the very thing that everyone seeks but they don't realize that even though they do it all day long 247 their whole

life and that is all human beings seek engagement they seek immersion they seek to be lost in whatever they do that is the central Human desire and I concur with that that is when they feel most alive I concur with that 100% so for you personally how do you know what you know how' you get here that's a very good question um my knowledge is not my own it is just that I know the way to the will I think that knowing the Truth isn't something that you learn in a book or through some methodology

or technical means I think it is I think you receive it through some form of Grace it is somehow bestowed upon you when you demonstrate to Nature or the universe or to The Ether that immediately surrounds you that how genuine and how sincere your desire for that truth really is and when whatever that force is uh recognizes That desire and how genuine it is it bestows it upon you knowing that it's releasing it into safe hands you've said in a lot of your discourses and you know a lot of the the interactions you've had on

social media that all conflict is self-conflict which in essence is you know all of it is mindmade give me a little bit more on that whenever you fight with Another it is your own uncomfortability that you're fighting with such that if one was complete and totally content with himself he could never be affected to the point of conflict because no matter what the other person said if it was true then there would be no reason to get upset if it wasn't true then there will be no reason to get upset the Reason that we get

upset is because we internalize the negative things that are directed towards us and as we internalize them that creates an internal self-conflict and that manifests itself as exteral conflict what did it take for you to kind of get into that state of being to live that way uncompromising desire do you ever get stressed yeah I reactively I do and I'll I'll give you some examples uh well one I'll give you probably the most readily available example to me is if I you know wherever I go I look for places to be alone when I go

to a restaurant and I see a a group of 15 in one part of the restaurant I will ask the person to see us over there in like the back room somewhere to me every restaurant should have like a s room or something where you go inside and there's no music and there's no people and they just close The door and you can sit quietly either by yourself or whoever you came with um the the the what what the reactive sort of annoyance that I have is if you walk into a restaurant and like a

band starts playing that just kills me because it it destroys my silence and I don't know why in this Society there has to be music wherever you go I don't know why there can't be silence somewhere there's always got to be a radio or something playing overhead And those are the kind of things which like cut through everything and and really in a reactive way get to me and then after that I I could calm myself down you know but those are the kind of things that that that are incompatible with my nature how quickly

are you able to calm yourself down are you talking about instant yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no no I I I can calm myself down instantly uh because I I recognize that you know I don't want to be in that Annoyed State that's why I said reactive it's kind of like someone poking you in the arm with a knife you'll react with a Flinch right that's what I mean uh if it gets too loud I'll just leave you know uh so but yeah calm myself down it was not difficult do you structure your day where

you have more silence and you do noise yeah wherever I go I had more silence uh and no noise my house is a quiet house the TVs basically we have TVs on the wall which no longer have Receivers hooked up to them I sent them back a couple of years ago so we don't watch TV I have no radio uh I but what about when the boys want to play video games yeah yeah they go play in the basement that's fine I don't have a problem so you stay away from the basement yeah I mean

if there's some video games you want to play and I hear the video games it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't bother me because it's you know It's an accepted there's an accepted accepted level of noise that that I'm okay with tell me what the role of gratitude plays in your life it's a prescription and that's why I ask yeah I don't believe in any of those things I don't believe in any of those things as a doing if you're if Gra ude comes to you if compassion comes to you fine if you tell someone to

be gratitude have a gratitude journal and I just I Just reject all those things and if someone get something out of it I'm not going to argue with them I mean you know I don't care what you get out of whatever if it if it if it gives you something then by all means doesn't matter what I say but if you ask me what do I think about gratitude I I say it's a prescription how about money what is the what's your relationship with money and and how do You see money or Financial Freedom with

some of the people that you work with is there a correlation between the the suffering that that causes people I think money is a bad rap um I think I think it's a romanticized idea to say that wealthy people are miserable and by by by implication that those people who don't have money are happy I that's that's not true um I'm glad you said that don't think that Money I'm sorry I'm glad that you said that because I wholeheartedly believe that yeah um there are there's wealthy people often times have a guilt about having money

um the society sort of looks down down upon them for as if they didn't deserve it and as if they need to be as if they need to be more sharing and and and give away their money and give more to the I just I reject all those ideas I think if someone wants to give they can give and if they don't That's their business and no one has any right to ask someone to give money to anybody else I think that's that's all political and uh it leads to a degraded Society to to accept

to to demand that someone give something to another I I I just totally reject all those things um I I don't think charity is a responsibility I I don't I don't believe that to be the case I believe charity is an option and you are not and you are neither bad for not doing it nor are you Good for doing it all things at the end of the day are done for yourself if giving charity made you feel bad nobody would do it as for uh wealth and money itself I think Financial Freedom is a

big deal and I'll also say that the only person who actually can search for truth is the one who is financially free the one who has to feed his stomach cannot spend his life feeding his soul so if somebody's deadly serious to use your words about that pursuit of Mastery but they haven't achieved in neur own terminology or definition that that Financial Freedom what do you tell them I think that's too hypothetical of the question I don't I think that generally people who are not financially free are working towards making more money I think that's

where their their priority is um as opposed to I want to search for truth often I can't I can't say that categor L but Often times it is the case that typically someone who is trying to make money and who isn't financially free that'll be the great priority while they have some desire for the truth that is also an interest of theirs um but it's very difficult to live in this Society without money and I think everyone realizes that no matter how much you want the truth at the end of the day you must put

the food on the table yeah aimen to that all right two more Questions for you and I'll let you go on your own path to Mastery mastering your Truth where are you you know that's a wonderful question I don't know quite how to answer it all I can say is that my sincerity and desire to live a sweet spot of a life is at a fever pitch it is to the point of absolute desperation I do not want a single Moment of the day to go by that I do not feel immersed it is truly

a desperation I and I and I'll say that at the end of the day it is less about where someone is on a ladder and far more about how deep he is into the wrong and when you're at that depth that you are currently are how do you feel inside um I think the answer is probably not The one most will imagine that they'll hear there's a lot of turmoil in seeking truth because you want everything now and that dogged unrelenting uncompromising craving and Quest rest leaves one always experimenting Always exploring always dissecting so it

is a frenzy of a life in many ways um so I I would say some combination of of of intensity and immersion your latest discourse is about answer and you have two wonderful young boys who are going to do great things in the world if you had a group of their best friends or group of 20 to 25 Millennials that you were Mentoring what would you make sure they learned from you no I wouldn't make sure they learned anything I would come on I would just say that the the the thing that they would benefit

the most from in their own life would be to allow my dogged intensity for the Truth to somehow bleed into them and the dogged intensity the the uncompromising immersion in whatever it is I want to do I think that is the thing that would benefit them the most by way of Osmosis much less than by way of instruction well watching you doesn't hurt either that's What the watching I think is far more impactful it is tell me well this this certainly the 35 minutes or so that we've just bent together doesn't do justice to the

impact that you have on everybody that you're around I hope that you and I can build on this conversation and for those listening to you for the first time what is the best way for them to stay up to dat on what you do the great writing That you do and uh you know I know there's another book that's coming soon so tell them how to find you uh the website is this is part two of uh my conversation with my friend capil Gupta uh you're about to be intrigued again so my friend great to

be with you thank you Mo likewise so I want to start with something that you said that for the past couple days has had me really thinking and to you it's going to Be really simple to the rest of us it's not in order to become present you must first become absent I think I have a sense of where you're going but tutor me on that a little bit presence is immersion into the moment and in order to immerse yourself into the moment you must disappear into the moment as long as there is a you

that knows that you are in the moment you are not in the moment therefore in Order to become present you must first become absent how do you disappear tell me what you mean by disappear so the great majority of the day the great majority of us we're disappeared right we don't even know what we're thinking or what we're doing we're just kind of going through life but we're not present yeah presence is really the way that it's Described in in the culture of society is is a prescriptive sort of presence that you should do X

and Y to become more present yeah be in the moment and be in the moment and even professional athletes are told that by Sports psychologists all the time about being in the moment now um how many years did it take Buddha to get into the moment and that to after having surrendered his his crown and his kingly robes uh and disappear into the forest And live the life of an aesthetic and drink his own urine and live out a grain of rice per day and after years of that he found presence and yet society and

modern day coaches and instructors tell people to be present as if they're asking to tie their shoe it's quite ridiculous um nothing if you're if you're serious you're serious but don't don't talk nonsense and tell someone to be present the moment is something that one Could immerse themsel into a lifetime in order to accomplish um it isn't it isn't a prescription to go be present one becomes present when he removes all the things that are the impediment to becoming present the most obvious one and the largest obstacle being yourself MH but the attempt to be

present while you are present is an ineective prescription if you truly want to seek the moment the moment must mean more to You than everything else there can be no experiencer there can only be the experience so I'm going to be very cautious of my words because for those who listen to our last episode we talked a lot about why the how isn't where everything lies so I'm going to ask you what approach if you've got people who are deadly serious about living present in the way you define it what approach do we take to

get closer to That the presence cannot be walked towards it has to be backed into when all of the interferences that are your involuntary thoughts and your worries and your concerns and your stresses and your anxieties and your fears when those things don't mean as much to you as it does to be present you begin to naturally gravitate towards the present moment when you are using the present moment and the idea of becoming Present as a prescription or as a treatment or as a way to feel less stressed it doesn't happen because the impetus for

it isn't sufficiently strong these are very otherworldly things that are treated as if they're apples in a basket these are life devotional things these are true Nectars of human existence and to treat them as if they were to go blow your nose or to put on Some makeup is is really silly and it is fundamentally to not understand how deep and how subtle is the journey to reach these places so all things happen by way of sincerity all things happen by way of genuiness they don't happen by way of technique or prescription and if you

try to make them happen by technique or prescription you will leave with the technique and the prescription you will never leave with the Thing so do you ever worry do I ever worry I worry when I allow myself to play the game of the mind and when you sense that what do you do if I feel like playing the game I play if I don't feel feel like playing the game I exit the game why would you ever feel like I mean is the mind taking you to places where you want to go right you're

telling me that mind is the source of all a wonderful question yep that's a Wonderful question and that is because after you live life for a number of years in a certain way you become habituated to the various games that you've been playing for many years and those habituations have their sort of bells and whistles attached to them and because you are used to uh at least for a number of years earlier in your life being attracted by the bells and whistles the the Vestages and the residue of those attractions still remain as a result

the attraction to sometimes playing the game does remain and for those reasons I sometimes play that isn't the important thing the important thing is that I have a door through which I can exit how do you exit when you're ready I exit when my desire to exit is greater than my desire to Play so and I want to play on that for a minute I want to talk about the truth this is probably the one area that I have gotten more feedback than anything from our initial conversation there's so many people that talk about the

truth and transparency and all of the buzzwords of modern society but when you talk to someone about the truth and when they listen to you speak about it to the great majority of people that translates to them that Hey I have to be honest with myself I have to stop lying to myself but for you that's very shallow in your world the real truth is much deeper take me there the truth is the causality the truth is the nucleus of the cell the truth is the central source and impetus from which all the problems at

hand were born that is the truth by truth I don't mean that someone's lying or being um you know Being uh untruth the same way that by the word sincere I don't mean that someone is being deceitful sincere means genuine at least the way that I'm using it the truth means what is the source of the problem and upon Examining The Source if you remove that central element upon which the problem rests then the problem will come tumbling Down every problem every situation every circumstance as a truth we may not know what it is and

usually we don't know what it is but the just the idea that the situation that I'm facing right now has an absolute definable and knowable truth and upon finding that I will find find my way just that idea allows one to have a very effective alternative to the ineffective path of pursuing Prescriptions so can we demonstrate that for a little bit can you demonstrate that with me or could you share with us an example that you have recently discovered with somebody that you work with with who did not know their truth but they were dealing

with a particular issue and by walking them through that path of the truth you discovered it could you kind of help us kind of peel the onion a little bit with it how about I give you a chapter from My upcoming book I would love that um imagine a human being that becomes insulted when he is called he or she is called stupid okay okay someone calls them stupid they get insulted they get angry the natural reaction to that is to say well I shouldn't get angry or someone else their friend or some therapist will

tell them that U just because someone called you stupid you the classic thing is this it doesn't Matter what someone says to you it's how you react or don't take it personally right yes yeah that's all just nonsense okay it doesn't matter how you react because if if you change how you react but you feel a certain way that means you just change the Cosmetic of your reaction doesn't affect how you feel you just kind of bit your tongue so to speak so that's just swirling muddy water all over again that doesn't get to the

truth Of anything that's just Cosmetics so let's examine the truth about that the truth it has nothing to do with how you should behave if someone calls you stupid it has to do with here's the question if someone calls this person stupid and the person gets angry the question is why did they become angry naturally if we get the Cosmetics out of The way because the first five answers that you get are always wrong because they're top of the head and they're uh superficial MH you know one of the first first has well be well

the reasons I got reason I got angry was because I was called stupid well no it's not true because if that person called you a cloud would you get angry no why not the reason that you wouldn't get angry someone called you a cloud was because you Knew in very certain terms that you weren't a cloud if they if they called you a bird you know that you got a bird so you wouldn't get angry then why do you get angry when they call you stupid the reason that you that the person would get angry

if theone called them stupid the reason anger arose not how to deal with the anger not what's the best way to manage it all this silly nonsense what is the Reason that the anger arose the reason that the anger arose is because when the person was called stupid something inside that person ser iously entertained the possibility that they were in fact stupid sure when that possibility was entertained then another part of them the egoic part of them did not like the fact that a part of them entertained the idea that they were stupid that produces

internal Conflict that internal conflict out outwardly manifested itself as anger now we have the system the systemology and the pathophysiology of why the anger arose when someone sees that then they are able to truly dissect the nucleus of the issue which in this case would be why is it that a part of me seriously entertains the possibility of me being stupid That becomes the focus and the focus does not become the silliness about how I should react next time and when you discover that and maybe you discover the fact that you know the part of

you that triggered that goes back to you know a childhood memory of a teacher who's telling you you're not smart enough you're never going to amount to anything what are you doing to try to put that to closure You don't have to do anything it's just the recognition of it exactly awareness is the Cure All doings are done when someone does not have an awareness of the truth then you need to lower yourself and resort to doing so capio when you start to see the world from from that lens how does the view change it

changes everything it's a Complete Game Changer because now all of your focus and all of your attention is on a completely different realm on a completely different depth therefore you begin to approach everything that way and by doing so you begin to have Insight that nobody else has not because you're smarter but because the number of people in your domain or in any other domain who are truly genuinely sincerely willing to die for the truth Can we counted on one hand it's pretty obvious right and and I know you fit into that category but that

leads me I want to skip around a little bit because that leads me to an area the the the the other area that was another one of our themes that we talked about last time that people are very intrigued by is this whole idea of being empty professionally there are far too many people in the world who are empty professionally for whatever reason right We see the statistics the gallop studies and you know all the misery that people have at work when you hear people talk about how professionally bankrupt they are you get surface answers

like I'm not challenged enough I don't like my boss burnout etc etc what is the real reason that we put up with these types of less than satisfactory careers because something within us is is acceptable to us that we're There fear if if any well no I even if it was fear it the the comfortableness of being there is something that means more to us than the uncomfortableness of leaving so all decisions are already made it is a very disingenuous thing when someone asks you what should I do they've already decided they're just asking you

for they're just asking you In order to hope that you give them the answer that they've already decided upon validation yeah absolutely okay so the idea first of all of a job I reject I don't think anybody should have a job I don't think anybody should a boss any human being who lives under the weight and the thumb of somebody else else is a prisoner now that human being already has a a tyrannical Warden call his Mind he doesn't need two of them so when someone says well I don't have a job and if I

don't put food in the table I I'm not going to you know I can't feed my f you know it's better to live destitute in the street I really mean it I you just said just tweeted something do whatever you have to do I mean it doesn't mean just leave your job today but and I'm not and I'm not asking people to leave their job because if they want to they Will um but I think it's I think it's beneath human beings to have a job what should if someone is completely well if someone is

completely immersed in what they do it gives them glorious satisfaction then I don't call that a job even if you do happen to work for somebody if what you do makes you jump out of bed it consumes all your faculties it allows you to be completely Immersed in it that it doesn't matter if you're working for yourself or somebody else that kind of experience is what everyone craves it just so happens that very few people have that experience even if they're self-employed so sometimes you're a much worse boss than the boss that you had before

so um it it it isn't being professionally bankrupt and Being professionally empty has more to do with what experience that you not desire but insist upon living within that it does that it has to do with making your job more interesting that's more cosmesis what's the percentage of people that you meet that are totally immersed in what they do and is it skewed for you Because you're dealing with entertainers and professional athletes and the people at the top of their game is that a trick question then yeah but even but but even no but even

they they are influenced by the culture as well and so they the level of immersion that I talk about absolutely they experience and many people experience it's just that they only experience it occasionally and the reason that they Only experience it occasionally is because that isn't at the Forefront of their priority and it and I'm not saying it should be there's no should but it just so happens that that is exactly what they're seeking without realize that they were see without realizing they were seeking it capil what do you tell somebody who's doing very well

financially in a job but really dislikes it is that telling you that That no no no it isn't for me to tell them anything if someone's priority is money their priority is money there's no good and bad there there's no there's no morality there's no right and wrong there's no correct or incorrect if listen Mo if someone wants to be a billionaire just to be a billionaire that isn't right and that isn't wrong it's just what the person wants I I see that I see that but at the price of complete unsatisfaction and Well-being is

it worth it it it it depends who's asking the question if if Society is asking the question then it's none of their business if the person who wants to become the billionaire and and or who becomes a billionaire if he says that it's not worth it that I'm caught in this sort of game and I feel trapped and I desperately want a way out well that's totally different if he's the one Thing then then that can be explored and freedom can be had but but it is very it is society's natural default and natural reflexive

bent towards recommending what they think is right there's too much right and wrong and and um self-righteous morality which flows through the air of society that's what I appreciate so much about you is is everything's personal right that they really these Universal beliefs and laws and you know cliches And metaphors that we hear while the great overwhelming majority of us internalize them you really take a step back and it's personal to the individual which is something that's really refreshing oh it's the truth well well not only that it's I'll say this it doesn't work the

other way you could you you can impose all of your morality on any if you like he's Not going to do anything people don't respond to right and wrong people don't respond to good and bad do you know why the people who don't commit crimes don't commit crimes it isn't necessarily because they think it's wrong they don't want to go to jail mhm so there's a practicality behind it isn't it isn't that they stay up at night thinking about what the right thing and the wrong thing is and if they Do that's a learn Behavior

that's a societal religious imposition uh so so it doesn't work the only way it works is if it's personal and not only that when it's personal it has to be deeply personal so it is like you have a choice it isn't like uh you you are able to impress your morality upon people and when no one's looking they're going to Obey no they're not you know this this really kind of triggers something for me with and it's been several months now since since our relationship started and one of the things I observe in you is

you constantly transcending you're constantly you know you're you're just you're you're seeking your own truth and I have to believe that most people who would give the time to listen to this and and communicate with us as they have They're very interested in evolving I don't even want to use the word changing evolving and trying to experience this true Transcendence how do you and the Masters and the people you study the people you work with what do you do to continually transcend the way you do well you know situations continually arise and then they're always

the situations that are ongoing for which the precise truth has not yet been discovered so it it really Is a a chronic persistence um after sort of the the great truths of life um as opposed to finding ways to to to transcend so like give me an example of one or two great truths that you've discovered about your own life that the things that the mind tell me are correct are almost never correct so I stopped listening to the mind but it never I have learned well so what I mean the dog Never talks parking

either I bean I go listen to the dog um so I've learned to not 100% but a pretty good percent I'm still working on the 100 um I've learned to not allow the mind a say if I decide to do something I decide the mind doesn't get a vot if I decide not to do it I'm not good for not doing it or am I bad for not doing it and even if I do something that the Mind agreed with it still doesn't get a vote because it's wrong the mind the Mind always lies so

it's less about being wrong because not really wrong in right but it always lies but you said it's a reactive liar that's probably a truth that we all share oh sure oh sure there there's nothing that's unique to me we all suffer the same problems so for the majority of us you Say you're not not 100% but you're you're on your way to 100% for the majority of us with this whole mind thing how do we even start to get to the 10 or 20% how do we start to start to conceptualize the mind in

within the same context as you just said hey the dog never barks I've never heard that never stops barking how do we start to let go of some of that stuff and start realizing ourselves that hey a lot of that crap upstairs is Crap sincerity understanding and experimentation sincerity in really wanting to learn about the mind and not about psychology because the mind has psychology for breakfast psychology doesn't touch the mind it's just Behavior modifications and swirling of the muddy water so sincerity in wanting to learn about the true nature of mind Its habits its

patterns like watching an animal in the wild and the second thing I always forget what I say so what was the second thing I said sincerity what exp I don't I said three things I know that much well you said sincerity for sure right and experimentation and then I said yeah experimentation was one of them um after one is if one is sincere then they will experiment with their own mind to discover the thoughts That it creates how often is it right not what it should say not what it shouldn't say not that you're going

to get mad at for saying it wrong not that you're going to be happy with it for saying it right just as an impartial Observer the things that it says to do or that it has said to do in past situations whether it be in relationships or one's work or in a decision-making capacity whatever it is how often is it right how often has It genuinely helped the individual and how often has it genuinely hurt the individual and I'm not leading anyone to be to be totally upfront about it and examine it as a neutral

Observer through that that sincere exploration one then develops the capacity for in order to cultivate abilities that he did not previously have they were always latent within Him but before he was functioning by way of societal conditioning things related to psychology and do this don't do that and the mind is a a great thing that is your friend and it can move mountains and all of which are only half truths the Mind absolutely can move mountains but it can only move mountains once you are no longer under its control is do you devote your learning

Because you're always writing you're always studying what are you learning is it is that your learning path geared towards the discovery of some of these things that you've shared with us uh I I want to be the master of my mind it should never even get a bleep it should never even get a whisper my mind needs to become my genie in a bottle I want to be I want to be completely 100% a master of life to understand how everything works to untangle the ball of yarn to know it intimately why is it a

curiosity absolutely not it's life and death for me because this is what drives me when I have everything untangled I am free everything comes under my control when I know something that Deeply when I know when I see the strings behind the stage when I solve this Rubik's Cube nothing can affect me anymore I am no longer a prisoner to anything that that to me is a life well spent so when you're around people and I want to get to some of the questions and some of the most intriguing ones that uh that people have

communicated with me specifically from our last conversation And one of the ones that I found interesting was this whole idea of about doubt and positive selft talk first what do you think ignites doubt in people fear of what's to come of not getting what they want to get but how do I know that until I try well you will try but you'll be fearful as you try you see that's not a good desire well well you act like you Function out of choice you function of compulsion fear and desire go hand in hand whenever the

Mind desires something it fears not getting it 10 times as much MH that causes self-doubt how do you handle that it isn't about handling anything it's about learning my I wrote about this in a discourse a few times years ago I younger son was Seven or eight and we were on the golf course you know training and he asked me a question and I'll never forget where I was standing when he asked me and he said where does Fear come from daddy and my mind said to me at that moment it said well here you

go you're on the spot you know what are you going to do now mind master right you you don't have you have to give him response right now he's looking Right into your eye and I didn't allow myself to think because I knew that if I thought I would spend my wheels so I allowed instinct to answer the question and this is what Instinct said Instinct said that whereever there is a consequence there is fear so it is the UN it is the understanding of that that allows one to proceed with Wisdom it is not

the dealing with anything it isn't the management of anything I think dealing with and management should be thrown into the trash can and anyone who ever has a Stress Management conference should be fired and put in jail I think all management and all dealing with is all cosmetic 20 minute too late prescription nonsense all Treatments are nonsense either there's a cure that you have or shut your mouth cuz a genuine human being deserves nothing less so I appreciate the instinctive decision that you gave your son back then so does that mean is is the answer

to learn how to detach from outcomes to learn how to detach from these that's two prescript that's back to Prescription it isn't the reason that you ask me what do you do is because you haven't explored it okay listen Mo if you were sitting in a chair and there is a snake under your chair the only knowledge that you need the only information that you need is for me to tell you that there's a snake under your chair damn right after after having obtained that Information one person might sit perfectly still one person might jump

off the chair and run down the hall one person who has experience with snakes might reach down and grab the head of the snake one person might pull out a knife from pocket and cut the steak in half what the person does is irrelevant it is simply that he must be armed with the knowledge and the Insight that there is a snake under the chair no one needs two pieces of information the information of the snake and what do I do they only need the first piece of information what then is confidence how do you

define confidence it isn't about definition um is it a feeling confidence comes from systems if you are performing a test Task in order to have confidence in that task you have to have a system that performs the task for you and you execute that system every time even if that system doesn't always produce the desire that you the the outcome that you want 100% of the time then you go back and you refine the system but confidence is more about surrendering yourself to a system than it is About you trying to produce a certain in

uh outcome because if you if each time you don't rely upon a system and you yourself try to produce a certain outcome sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't most s it doesn't as a result you will lose confidence in yourself because it is yourself that is doing the action but if you create a system then the system does the action and you have confidence in it a person has confidence when he rides in a boat That the river will take him down itself he will not have to to paddle necessarily A flowing river will take

him Downstream he has confidence in the river if the river was completely still and he jumped into the river and it was up to him to make every paddle and splash then sometimes he may get down the river other times he may get tired it would be very ineffective and spotty therefore he lose confidence in the fact That he's able to consistently make himself go down the river so I believe that in whatever task it is whether it's professional sports or whether it's business whatever it is to create a system that can be relied upon

and each time you execute that system you test its efficacy and when after having received the data as to how efficient that system is You go back and refine refine refine until the system produces the outcome that you desire most if not all of the time and then that is the thing that you have confidence in to rely totally upon ourselves is a very ineffective way to go about things so now you're opening up a the windows open a little bit for me you're not a golfer but you coach PGA players you're not a swimmer

but Olympic swimmers seek you out you certainly Never been in entertainment still the A-list people have you on direct dial so if it's not skills that you're teaching is it this system that you're helping them design Mo there's some there's a great truth that is operative that everyone must understand and it applies to everything the thing is never about the thing it's about the Mind whatever basically it's about the mind Yes it's never about the action it's about the source of the action it's never about the the carrying out of the action it's about the

intention of the action it's always about the Deep seated impetus behind the thing that's where all the magic is it's never in the execution of the thing the execution is a natural byproduct Of the impetus so is that why no one no singer loses their voice no no PGA Tour player loses their swing and yet and that is the truth but they tend to lose their swing all the time MH and they call in their instructors from all over the country to come see to ask them why their swing plane is too inside or outside

or over the top or Across the line and all this just just garbage that is because they believe that they are the executors of the action and if you yourself of the executor of the action you will be inefficient far more than you'll be efficient as a result you will lose confidence you will then believe that you will need to refine your Technique in order to perform the action better thereby getting more confidence So that you can have better execution that doesn't work so everything another theme everything in society and I'm talking at the highest

levels of society the PGA Tour the NBA world class performing artists high level acting the Hollywood stage everything is backwards where do we start as individuals who are committed to This depends where you want to go I want to go to the truth I want to go I want to go be the master of my mind like the quests that you are in a process of conquering and I speak for a lot of people who've commented on this then if that is genuinely and sincerely your quest then you will begin to walk down that path

and if you do not walk down that path there should be no remorse for not Having walked down on it it is just that you will then know that that as of yet at least is not your sincere desire because if it were then you would have already walked well a lot of us have so we never we never do what we don't want to do that is another myth we never do what we don't want to do we always get what we want we are not victims we are creators and that is not a

motivational Phrase it is it is said in order to provide Insight that all of our your actions are motivated by our own intrinsic Inspirations and motivations regardless of what we tell ourselves do you believe in positive selft talk no I think it's all garbage so that's part of that mind speaking to you that you ignore that's the dog Barking well actually positive selft talk is you tell yourself that you're great and you can tell yourself that you're great but what's your mind going to say back and when your mind speaks back and tells you that

that's right and who who voice do you think wins this is all I got to tell you the fact that the fact that I have to say these things and you know I say this These kind of things that come up in all kind of podcasts and interviews and talks and head with people I am actually flabbergasted that no that this is actually a discussion I am I am shocked that we are at this stage of of evolution in society where selft talk is actually considered to be an effective thing hey there are books on

that there are people who charge lots of money to have you to go to a seminar for three days so you can walk out with your Rituals to to have your self talk when you wake up or when you go to sleep yeah right after the right after the mindfulness seminar and the stress management Stress Management of course man that's you paid a lot of money for that one yeah yeah and I'm sure that you went once and you were cured well exactly absolutely listen I I this is the to me these are the most

fascinating conversations I have ever had and I am Completely indebted to you for having them and I hope we can keep building on them I have to ask you one last question and we'll put a pause for this one and hopefully build on it if you were running a company that is growing really fast like one of these technology companies and you are the leader or CEO whatever of this company what would your leadership style be what would your people expect from you what's what's my vision for the Company you're you're you're part of changing

the world am I looking to produce the company am I am I looking am I looking to to to build the company and then look for an exit or is this something that I want to uh nurture and create into a Google or an apple the ladder what what do you want to hear want to hear how you'd lead a company like that all things at the end of the day Come down to Leading yourself with perfection when you operate from a place of sincere motivation and all and your eyes are Forever on yourself looking

at all the hold in yourself it has an effect on people and whether it does or not it doesn't matter it wouldn't matter to me because I wouldn't change it even if it didn't but just from experience it tends to have a ripple effect on People that compels them to walk along those lines without you ever having to ask them to do so it becomes infectious and contagious not your behavior not your motivational speeches but who you are creates what the company becomes and would one of your priorities in addition to yourself wanting to transfer

that to the people that you have because you can't build that type You can't can't build Apple by yourself you're going to have people all over the world but you're you're the the the prophet you're the leader well each all people that I would hire would be enormously skilled in their particular domain so the things that I'm discussing aren't aren't skill development they already have that the things that I'm discussing are uh inspiration And purity of intent um it wouldn't be about me instilling anything into them it would be about me Examining my motivations for

doing all the things that I do in each interaction with a person and in in just the way that I walk into the office whatever I do that would create uh that would set the tone now if there were people who did Not uh exemplify that Pursuit towards perfection in themselves as it relates to their role in the company then they wouldn't be part of the company anymore so I would recruit and I would surround myself with the people whose sensibilities were naturally in lined with a Pursuit toward making something Great I'm not much of

a believer in pep talks that's obvious I believe I believe you are the walking Example The Becoming is the message talk is cheap well hey if nothing else the last 45 minutes uh and for those who have been with us they've certainly maybe taken one kind of slight step towards that becoming and I want to put a pause here because I know we're going to build on this but let people know tell me about your upcoming book Where do people find you how do they keep up to date with you uh Twitter is where uh

I spend some of my time is at k a p i l g u PT a m d uh website is capil gup md.com uh the upcoming book is sort of Under Wraps right now although I did reveal a chapter today uh for the first time um the discourses are many books in and of itself yeah the this courses I suppose So it's always a pleasure for me to get capile on our program because not only does his work and his thinking fascinate me but I think more importantly he's probably one of the very few

individuals who just gets to the heart of the matter regardless of what we talk about so uh capil I know there's a new book out but more importantly it's always a pleasure to talk with you about whatever we want to talk about thank you m likewise So I kind of shared with you what I what I would like to do is kind of I've selected four or five questions that I consistently get from people who I recommend your work to so I'm going to kind of let that guide our conversation but before we do that

what fascinates me about you more than anything is about your amazing immersion to continually get better yourself so tell me something new that you've reach recently learned that you didn't know Before I think it relates to the nature of who we believe ourselves to be um Beyond simply the idea of disenfranchising the ego but more fundamentally uh the concept of uh frankly the concept of self-concept and the concept of self-image um it seems to govern our entire lives and I think that the fundamental realization of who one really is and more importantly who one and

what one is Not I think is truly at the foundation of living a true life as opposed to struggling through life so is it any surprise that that's the dialogue that you share in the opening chapter of your new book which you know this question Capal of who am I kind of seems to govern this whole shift of mindfulness this whole shift of spiritual thinking and certainly I know that um that's part of the the the deep thinking that you do about your yourself But I know that you look at it from a different context

how do we begin to answer that question it relates to the things that one can no longer accept as all right um there has to be a level of desperation or unbearability so to speak uh with regard to where one is that really is the only impetus uh to to change direction in whatever facet of what whatever facet of Life One explores once something is no longer Okay then um a path away from that is is sought so it really comes down to um where someone is with regard to uh one's level of desperation of

no longer want to experience the things that he or she experiences or the opposite which is uh no longer being able to be kept from the things that he or she wants to uh have or attain so is there really an answer to it like in your own Journey have you answered that Question for yourself or is it that constant Quest you know I don't really believe in con and quests because that very quickly turns into uh a procrastination and that's exactly um the fundament of human beings is to procrastinate about everything and so when

someone says that I'm going to be a Perpetual student and always continue to learn and it's a constant Quest and it's a journey that has no end that there is way too much license there to never arrive anywhere which is precise what the Mind happens to want um because at the end of the day a human being is a prisoner to his mind and the ultimate freedom is freedom from the mind and the freedom from the self so so it can't be a constant Quest there has to be an end point and the end point

is the very inspiration the very Motivation that gets one moving in the first place what's yours total freedom and and so from when did you know you got there because and it's one thing I haven't gotten there I haven't gotten there um this is this is still a quest but it's by no means is a is an infinite Quest um there there very definitely better be an endpoint because uh it simply isn't okay um with me uh to To live in in any imprisoned sort of way to the the nuances and behaviors and machinations of

the mind that simply isn't okay so so no I I haven't gotten there it's something that I'm it's something that is at the center uh of my life it's it's my devotion well and I know that one of the approaches for all of us to take is to start subtracting everything that isn't supposed to be there um from yourp yes and no yes and no um uh the what you have just said is A true statement um the truth comes about largely through subtraction not through addition that is a true statement however the stating it

in such a way you spoke it too easily Mo you said it too easily and and when you say when when you say it too easily it immediately will be Ed as a prescription um so then the people with will be told to watch your thoughts and keep subtracting and keep saying I'm not that I'm not that and NY NY and know and There the whole gang of gurus and the spiritualists come calling you know it it you can't you can't say it that easily because you have to be fully cognizant of the fact the

people who are listening to you are not the people themselves but it is their minds who are listening to you and when the Mind listens to that that all you have to do is subtract keep subtracting um it will then tell its possessor that uh or possess ye that you see this Is what you must do so go over in the corner and begin to subtract and that will be its own prison this is why no one ever gets anywhere so I I understand the spirit of what you said but there must be extreme care

in the way that we speak because we know that the mind is lurking behind every corner so I'm going to come back to that in a second but let Me dive into this first question cuz you brought it up almost almost invariably when I recommend your work and when when I say your work your books your discourses your podcasts all the things that really kind of capture some of the essence of your thinking the first question that I get is I I I I think I get what he's talking about but what does he really

mean when he talks about no prescriptions what do you really mean Okay that's a good question um first it has to be recognized that if you follow the idea of no prescriptions and you say to yourself that I cannot follow a prescription that I can't follow because it's a prescription that I can't follow because it's a prescription then that in itself becomes a prescription so it isn't about adopting the idea of no prescriptions then that Becomes no better than anything else it really it comes down to understanding so it isn't it isn't me on some

pulpit and you sitting below me and me teaching and preaching to you we are sitting on the same side of the desk and we are conversing together so the reason that prescriptions get people into trouble is because a prescription serves only its own end nobody can Prescribed his way to success nobody can be prescribed all the way to Enlightenment if they could if once again please don't believe me look at the evidence if one could then the Buddha's writings have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years uh who has gotten enlightened by reading any

of the for noal truths and there are Zen temples and Buddhist temples all around the world um how many do you see or have heard of getting Enlightened by visiting a Zen temple or a Buddhist Monastery or sitting and doing meditation for six hours a day so if that were true then you could very easily be prescribed to Enlightenment because the prescriptions all exists in spad same thing with same thing with success If someone becomes a super successful CEO or investor or an artist or a singer or a professional athlete or whatever If if that

could be bottled then they would just say well just do this and do this and do this and you'll become as great as I am tried to it's been that's right it's been tried again and again and again well how many Michael Jordans do you see walking around how many tigers do you see walking around right so if that were true then that would be very easy to replicate but it isn't true that's why is it isn't there so we have to look at the evidence and then And there's the evidence for the fact that

when you are told that this is what you must do then what will happen is that your mind will focus on the this it will focus upon the the position of your left arm and how good your Lotus position is right and how straight your back is and how many times you said the monra right and how much incest that did you actually burn and how many hours did you sit for and that becomes a new goal the Prescription itself replaces the original goal and now you become subservient to doing the prescription and making that

perfect as opposed to reaching somewhere so whenever you give someone a how to get there they will forever get to the how but they will never get to the there and our entire Society is based upon this is the five-step plan these are the Three next steps these are the 10 ways to become happy all these things they not only not only do they not work they can't work because no one can be prescribed his way to anything so how do how do we start to get there if you had me and 10 others who

said hey I don't need to tell you how much I appreciate what you do and your level of thinking but if you get a group of us in a room to say hey we want to learn from You we want to get in this Pursuit where we can be the absolute best versions of ourselves what are we going to be working on you're not going to work on anything um it first and foremost is is this take this example if I drop you into a lake and you can't swim you are not going to ask

me how to flail your arms somehow in some way until your arms tire out and you don't have a single Drop of energy left in your body you will do anything and everything necessary to get yourself to shore you're damn right and the re and the reason that you will is not because you took flailing classes before you went to the lake the reason that you will is is because the the key ingredient of the desperation to get to the shore was there the destination the desire the desperation creates the how it is not the

other way Around so if that's the case I mean there has to be I have to believe that the great majority of the world maybe they're not in that desperation mode but if I go out and ask 10 very successful people and however they define success is this all there is for you I would bet you that all 10 would say no there is a next stage is that the desperation that we're looking for or how do you define that everyone is desperate for Something exactly but very few people ever reach that level that you're

talking about if any I think I don't I think the ones who are sufficiently desperate always reach either by a serendipitous encounter with someone either by happening to be in the right place at the right time either by some idea that comes into them from a Place unknown whatever whenever someone has a sufficient sufficient level of Desire or desperation they don't not reach it you see I don't believe in Failure I I I fully expect people to fall along the way because everything is experimentation until you succeed but ultimate failure ultimate failure is only for

those who were not desperate enough I just don't buy the Idea that I give an individual was desperate enough and didn't get there I think that the universe is created in such a way that when there is a requisite level of dep depos of desperation that things begin to happen that cannot be explained that Aid him in that process so I want you to give our listeners and I'm assuming here the people who are listening to this know about what we do and certainly know About your work because you know strategically the message that you've

been sharing with people something that I've been promoting since we met two years ago give me an example of a before and after of somebody that you worked with who started to get a glimpse of that I I don't know where where that really goes Mo I mean um I just people I could give I could give you came I give you several examples but but but it but It you know I can't provide an explanation as to how those things happen so it it really becomes a fragment fragmentary conversation because um uh you know

people have you know found you know an enormous sense of peace and uh they begin their behavior begins to drastically change and they you know but these things I hesitate greatly in mentioning the mentioning these things because I Don't want it sound like a brochure you know what I mean because I never tell anybody when I begin working with them this is this is what's this is what's going to happen this is what I'm going to promise you I I'm I'm just as surprised as anybody else how these things happen that they happen at all

all I know for one thing which is the absolute fact is that when there is an Uncompromising Pursuit and exploration of the truth about a given issue in a given person's life there are fundamental physiologic Universal biologic psychological changes that begin to happen the it's it's it's mystical almost I have no idea how it happens um but something within the human organism responds to uncompromising and direct truth so perhaps because it is so Foreign in our world to talk about anything that is direct truth everything is superficial and cosmetic and prescriptive that it is it

is so foreign to delve into that sort of rarified um Arena that maybe that's why things begin to happen but they just do and I can't predict what's going to happen but that's what I've seen time and time again so do you find that there's something missing in you know in that Quest because the next big question I get is what exactly is this truth that he's talking about so take you know it's it's crucial to begin with those things that are most acute in someone's life so wherever wherever one wants to go um he

or she can only go there from where they currently are so the most practical things that are happening in one's life be it a you know conflict with others or be it anxiety or Depression or um whatever it is um that's where we must begin and so the the exploration is not about how do we lessen your anxiety the exploration is not about these are the things that you can do to make yourself feel better I have no interest in making anybody feel better I couldn't care less if you felt better that is not what

I'm here to do because I know for a fact that whenever you feel better sooner or later you're going to feel Worse again that's all part of the same game that isn't a game I'm interested in playing so the real the exploration of the truth comes in when you begin to dive deep into the very source and the Very root the unimaginable root of where those anxieties really come from without any expressed intent of trying to lessen their anxiety and that is fundamentally wildly different from what Anyone is used to that isn't the world that

we live in can you give me example of somebody's truth that you worked with you know for instance you know this is an example I give in the book and it's a common example it happens with many many people and it's um if someone if someone is angry at you and they slander you um the natural human reaction is to get upset And the natural prescription is don't get upset um it's not what they say it's how you react it's not personal it's not about you that's right that's right take five deep breaths and take

you know all this just dribble I mean it's almost it's almost shameful that people would you know say these things okay um it it really is you know the question isn't well how do I not get upset that isn't the question the question is why did the upsetness Happen why from where did it arise and where that arises from is that when someone is slandered a part of them begins to entertain the fact that they are in fact what the other person called so someone calls someone an idiot something inside the person begins to entertain

the fact seriously that maybe you are an idiot and yeah and then and Then that creates self-conflict because the other part of that person says well no I don't no I'm not and how can you mean himself which is really a conversation against the mind it's mind talking to mind mhm um says well well no I'm not and the other part of the person says well maybe you are and that creates internal conflict and then that internal conflict manifests itself as anger now a a in order to prove that if Someone called you uh a

an El genius no same thing genius would cause self-conflict too because the part of the you was say you're not a genius okay so if someone called if someone called you an elephant someone called you a horse right said you're a horse well you wouldn't really get angry because there would be no part of you that would seriously entertain that You were a horse and therefore there would be no self-conflict and all conflict is self-conflict so that is a fundamentally different approach because it gets down to the truth it gets down to the source of

where the upsetness so to speak arises as opposed to playing The Superficial and cosmetic game which essentially perpetuates the problem no one ever gets over anything By you saying it isn't about them it's it isn't about you it's about them uh don't take it personally no one ever gets over no one ever gets that doesn't cure anybody okay um so this does okay a con a constant revisiting of the source of one's problems eventually begins to create an understanding within a person which begins to free him from the problems he's imprisoned to well if there's

something that I have Imprinted uh in my head head from just all of the conversations we had is something that you said there is at all conflict the self-c conflict and I want to get to that in a minute but something was triggered in my mind how come most of us need the approval of other people because we are not whole and therefore we look to any and all arenas in order to fill the hold within our Professional athletes T this all the time they need to win the winning just to win is one thing

but no professional athlete wins just to win everyone looks to the game looks to the field looks to the court in order to fill a whole within themselves and that is why the only one who can really play and the only one who can really live is the one who arrives arrives whole when there is no Need there's freedom is that part of so the game so so so the game doesn't become how do I Garner and accumulate enough validation in order to patch up these holes the the real Pursuit it becomes how do I

become whole so that I no longer need to fill up any holes and what where do I start with that because one of the things obviously The great majority of your work starts and ends with the Mind Right assuming that this audience understands that each of us at some point or another maybe not all the time but at some point or another get in our own way of our own progress why do we get stuck there why do we get stuck with our minds because we believe the mind to be ourselves that sounds so damn

easy Um you know everything is easy it just depends upon one's level of Desire see there is no difficult the difficult is you what is difficulty difficulty is making yourself do something that you don't really want to do that's difficult easy is the congruence of what you're doing with what you really want to do see this is why everyone says this is So hard and well you know of course it's hard because it's all Penance everyone subscribes because you know from religion to education to parents to everyone society's all been Tau Society has been teaching

human beings for Millennia oh that that you have to pay that that you have to uh you have to you have to give penants that you must suffer that you must work hard and bleed and sweat in order to get somewhere and even if that were true what has Happened is that man has fallen in love with the sweat and the blood and the struggle and he's forgotten all about why he was struggling in the first place well the struggle becomes the Mantra of our life well the struggle becomes the goal and that's exactly what

we get back to your earlier question about prescriptions the prescription becomes a new goal that becomes a new God am I doing it correctly am I doing it long enough how long must I do it before it comes what does it take to change course desire sincerity seriousness without trying to be and what the hell does that look like it looks like the things that you've already attained in your life and the reason that you have them is because You couldn't live without them and the reason that you couldn't live without them is because you

had them do you think people are afraid of this wholeness and and freedom that you're talking about do you do you think that the great majority of us are force ourselves to be happy with this struggle that this is kind of the way we're supposed to live you know you're supposed to work really hard in The world you're supposed nothing is easy the path to the top is you know paved with really hard work is that just the world that we're creating for ourselves or is it in our heads um it's condition um and there's

no opposing view to the conditioning so I don't know what it is that I do but some it's interesting some have mentioned to me that what I provide for them and they Are in a much better position to judge what I do than than I am but um what it is I do for them is give them an opposing view a sort of sanctuary uh which is the only place that in their life they can go that is not full of the cultural conditioning when you when you only hear one loudspeaker um you you you

can't really overcome That when that's all you hear when that's in the water when that's the food when that's in your ear when that's in front of your eyes day and night for decades upon decades How can any real reasonable human being be expected to to say no that's every everything is wrong how can you have to be almost insane to seriously entertain that prospect that everything that you've heard is False it's all based upon prescriptions and lore and cultural conditioning once again you don't please don't believe anybody especially not me look at the evidence

so if you just take if all these things worked go ahead have you just taken a stand that regardless of what it is you're going to just question the oh I I I haven't taken a stand for me to take a stand would be to to Believe in what I believe I don't believe in what I believe I only believe in the evidence I don't need to take a stand you don't need to take a stand that the moon arises in the sky not on the ground you don't need to take a stand or you

can go outside and look th this is this is years of of of observing and seeing and and witnessing the same patterns again and again and again and I'm not the only one the people who the people who arrive at the Pinnacle of their craft in any field in any field they have an inkling of this too because they tend not to do what others do they tend to be contrarian they tend to be loners they tend to be against the grain they tend to be part of The Fringe element that isn't by accident you

know the the the common socializing um groupy is not the individual who becomes Elite he gets what everybody else Gets so this is this is in to a to a small seg segment of the population this is not news that if you walk into any discipline any Arena and you know nothing about the arena whether it's engineering or medicine or sports or business or Finance whatever it is you can walk into any Arena knowing nothing about it and saying whatever are your prevailing dogmas and I have no Idea what they are they're wrong because the

majority of you is always wrong the majority opinion is always wrong the people that you work with that get this and the people that you work with that share with you that the great contribution that you make is to be that opposing view what does that do to their thinking you know you ask me too much about what the the people I'm the receiving and Think um I I have to I don't know I I I don't know things just happen you know I I don't I don't know I mean I I hear them say

things and do things but you know once again if I go into that it sounds it sounds too um promotional you know what I mean uh and and I don't want to promote really anything it it it it's it just happens well you're not promoting anything because you're you're only going to work with the people that you Want to work with anyway right so it doesn't really well people the people who end up coming the people who end up coming I mean everything seems to self- select right I mean so when people go to the

website and they read my discourses or they or they you know subscribe to my private discourses they read the books and they're listening to the podcast it tends to self- select for a particular sort of DNA of individual and it it sort of it sort of shuns a more worldly common thinking individual um so it very much self- selects so it isn't so the people who come tend to come already being relatively well vested in in what um in being in alignment with the things that um that I subscribed to U by virtue of having

you know read all of these things before they came well speaking of that your Latest discourse or maybe it was a couple weeks ago really speaks to that and and it's it really spoke to me because you've shared it in some context here where you talk about this whole idea of the Superhuman and that all of us are created equal by way of flesh and blood but it's the heart within us that differs greatly go into that a little bit if you remember what the hell you wrote I have no idea what discourse you're talking

about um um but The I'm I'm the statement that you just mentioned I'm hearing it for the first time I might have written it I don't remember um but but it's true it's it's I guess I must agree with myself if I wrote that um um it it really comes down to the DNA of a particular individual um you know what I do in some ways is for everyone and in some ways really isn't for everyone and when what I mean by that is um fundamentally we are all human beings and therefore um these are

All uh these are the truth about things uh really arriving somewhere in one's life is really what we all seek but we have to first arrive at the place in which we are desirous of arriving there and so that is an evolutionary process within ourselves and I don't know why some people um truly are are ready for such things and others are not um so in that sense it isn't for everyone because um many are going to read these things and be and consider it Uh extraordinarily almost mystical and uh you know 180° opposite of

of of the world that they're used to living in and therefore it's just too much um so it really comes down to so yeah we are all Flesh and Blood we are all trying to go to the same place by different names um but it really comes down to the DNA of a particular individual uh that determines whether or not he is ready to pursue such a journey but as the old saying goes I assume you Agree with the point of hey if you find yourself at the side of the majority if you find yourself

following the crowd you're probably heading the wrong place true yes talk to me about how we deal with attachment at some point we all face it we all deal with it we're all dealing with it right now it's human how start to deal I mean I mean that that's a wonderful question and it really um Mo you have really Raised a a fundamental seat of um of human misery and human Strife I like that human human misery I like that absolutely um you know the Buddhist the Buddhist say um you know do not be attached

and the and the guru say do not be attached and uh and and all all it's it's absolutely true but it's kind of like saying be present or just be and those are those Are really more cosmetic you know silly comments um it isn't about not being attached because you can't not be something because if you try to not be something you will drift into prescription landh and you will get nowhere it is about seeing the belly of the Beast it is about seeing the eyes and the teeth in the Glare you do not need

to fix anything you need to see everything so when one truly sees only then does a journey towards nonattachment even become possible a person who is trying to become unattached by prescriptive means it is not possible for him to even enter the journey to becoming unattached because he will never Escape The Vortex of the prescription it is not about what do I Do it is about seeing the devastation it is about seeing the shrapnel it is about seeing the chaos that ensues on account of attachment not listening to anybody not hearing some book say that

you should not be attached those things will not do anything for you because we as human beings do not act unless our backs are against a Wall and the only way that our backs become against a wall is if we truly see knowledge is not powerful enough to make one change neither is the empty idea of health health isn't enough there has to be something in it for me for the human and that something better be deep only then will he commit without trying to commit he will commit when he Has no choice not because

it's good for him well I bring that up because as we as we tape this you know there's a an incredible catastrophe going on here in Southern California that we're living through right now you know people's homes are devastated these fires are going crazy uh lives you know every day that the number of lives that are being lost is going up and I was having a conversation this morning with somebody who actually lost their home here Malibu And um I was very impressed with the I don't want to say the lack of attachment but that

it took a few days that but he came to grips with the fact that everything I had is gone I'm not happy about it but at least I'm still here and I have the capability to replace it and when you talk about this issue with a lot of people um it's a tough one it's a really tough one when they're going through what they're going through and that's Why I wanted to get your perspective on it what message would you have for people that are going through that here right now where one day you're sleeping

in your bed and a couple of hours later everything that you own is gone there there's no message I can give there's no there's no message I can give to sooth someone or to make them feel better or to make them feel comfortable comforted or to make the pain any less is nothing I can Say but is there something that you can say about this whole idea of attachment would be would be as upset or maybe upset is not the right word uh would we be as impacted if we weren't as attached well no but

but that's but the only reason that you're asking that question is because a person's house burned down right exactly see what I want what I what I what I want what I want to hear you ask is okay okay let's say no one's house Burned down you wouldn't be asking me that question because it's easier to talk about it at that point because it's just it's a concept well well because well because I would argue I would argue that it's no small thing for someone's house to burn down and lose everything of course that's devastating

it's no small thing it is shouldn't be taken lightly I'm all with that but I will say I will argue this it is far more devastating To live every day of one's life under the weight of attachment without even knowing it and I would say most of us are living like that absolutely so the question arises there you don't need to wait for someone's house to burn down the house has already burned down a thousand times over it is the recognition of what attachment has done to us as human beings being on a fundamental daytoday

level that is the real Catastrophe what do we start not not according to not according to a particular event no matter how devastating it is which it is but it is far more devastating to live 70 years under the weight of attachment no doubt it ruins it ruins it ruins the quality of one's life because one lives under fear anxiety pain misery Strife hope disappointment failure that that becomes part and Parcel of one's life that becomes the only thing he knows what's the alternative the alternative is freedom freedom from the Mind freedom from attachment freedom

from seeking freedom from Hope freedom from wishing that tomorrow will be better than today and therefore never really arriv again tomorrow well we've definitely Experienced that here for some people for a lot of people who hasn't everyone experiences that everyone lives there the real tragedy isn't death the real tragedy is life H what are some things that we can do to start to live a life of Freedom I'm not going to say get there Because I don't think we're there yet but what are what are some steps that we can start to take so we

can start to lose that well I don't think that there's a we anything there's no we there's probably there might be three people there might be three people who are listening to this podcast who might be ready at some point in their life Okay so there's no we anything it really comes down to not doing anything at all it is it is understanding that your problems will never go away no matter how elaborate the fix the technique or the methodology may be you cannot Escape your problems and because you cannot Escape your problems you will

live a life of torment and anxiety interspersed by a few joyful Moments that will be your life the only way out of that is for what I just said to absolutely not be okay all right so let me end with this what are you most optimistic about nothing I don't believe in optimism what are you looking forward to nothing I'm not looking forward to anything I do not want I do not want tomorrow to bring me something because if I want that I'm Going to keep looking over there so if I have a journey if

I have a devotion it is to become 100% totally and completely free of all imprisonments of my mind and on a scale of one to five where are you no I don't impossible question to answer I I I am five with regard to my level of devotion and is that all that counts right Now that's the only thing that really works all right well I'm going to cheat and ask you one more question people want to know do you set goals no do you believe in setting goals if you're running a company and you're running

a public company you have to have some something for people to look forward to I think that relates To why you started it in the first place what is the thing that you truly want to achieve a vision what is your arrival and that is a that is not an easy as a question as it may sound of course because the arrival has far more to do with the deepest sense of unmitigated satisfaction than it does with achieving a sense of pleasure that Is I think that gets to the essence of the matter well that's

pretty appropriate um obviously we can sit here for hours but I think most importantly what I hope that we did with this segment is address some of the key questions that people have and you know I will continue to encourage anyone that uh listens to our work or subscribes to our work to do yourself a favor and dig a little bit deeper into cil's work not only his Books and his discourses but take some time to reflect to journal to really try to capture the message that he's trying to tell because for me personally I

mean the one thing that sticks to me is this whole idea that you said all problems are problems of the mind there is no conflict everything is self-conflict I've tried to come to grips with that but you know I'm about as candid as anybody it's really difficult and uh maybe I'm over complicating it but uh You know when I see the work that you do I'm inspired to to try to get to that level of Desire that uh that you talk about so for people that are listening do you have any parting words no how

come I knew that was going to happen so today we're going to dive into a topic that capil in particular has been hearing a lot about from you um and I think it's it's fascinating it's the perspective on parenting so capil let's Dive into it and um I want to start with I want to pick up on a conversation and you and I were having right before Thanksgiving when I asked you about your son your oldest son Aman coming home after his first semester at Oklahoma State University where he is part of the top ranked

Cowboy golf team out there and we were talking about how well he did and how well He adjusted and I made a reference that I felt like his Upbringing and the home environment that you guys created for him helped him in that adjustment and you started to challenge me a little bit on that why because nothing is that clean um you know uh parenting is very much a uh it's a search it's a um it isn't it isn't a linear uh Pursuit so nothing so nothing is that clean like I will never I I would

never accept that you know that I am a a quote good Parent um I don't know what that means to be honest with you well I'm going to get to that in a minute but yeah the in you created an environment that has helped this young man believe enough in himself to play competitive golf for as long as he's been playing and to go play for it's only like eight people on the team for a team that's ranked number one in the country division one they not a whole lot of people that could just by

osmosis learn how to handle that type of Pressure you know so so what so what are you saying what are be be frank with what you're saying that the environment that you guys created at home was a catalyst to helping him adjust the way he did deal with the stage that he's on in the manner that he's dealing with I just I think that that it's that he's too young to just have acquired all that on his own well I think one of the catalysts that you create as any parent is that you create a

catalyst for a Person to want to be on his own um you know I I I cannot you know I you you were giving me way way way too much credit and that's why I challenged you on it because I think I've done far far more wrong than I have right so to speak um uh I have made far more many mistakes than I have done things uh you know in a wise fashion and you know what is it that leads us on this search towards wisdom It it is precisely doing things uh in a

way that isn't effective so um so no I mean yeah I guess it didn't happen through osmosis I mean we've been we've been um you know we've been maniacally going at this for gosh how many years now I mean over a decade um so this has been the Hub of our of our existence and traveling the world uh you know pursuing God golf tournaments and chining and the rain and the cold and the wind and the snow and the ice and the dark and me It's it it really has been a maniacal Pursuit um and

that uh to be honest doesn't make for a very easy life so you know so it so I cannot I cannot agree that it's this Rosy picture of whenever you have wherever where where wherever there's ambition the there tends to be problems um and I'll be the first one to admit I've always grown up as a very ambitious person and um I think that that I think that there is some caution in in Ambition um excessive drive as much as I believe in it and and and as much as it it invests me um I

must be honest and and say that excessive Drive uh also um sabotages a level of Peace so I cannot I cannot sit here and take credit for although it's the osmosis but I but you know that he is doing well because I taught him to do well but I can't I can't say that I mean it a lot of these things just happen Because of the kid and because of um wanting to be on his own which I think that we all want to do and all we all want to be free um so I

that's why I challenged you on it it isn't that clean nothing is ever that clean well I want to get into I want to take a step back and and and really talk about what parenting is from your perspective and what a mo modern parent does and does not do but I want to go back to I want to stick on this Point for a moment because you wrote a discourse about it I'm sure you probably don't remember but I want to read a segment of it to you and I want you to get it

I want you to comment on it because you touched on it briefly when you talked about um the son asking and it may not be asking you but asking in general why did you not teach me the proper way to do things and the response was you know when you were small I had so much to Teach you I was overjoyed by the times I tried to guide you and instruct you you but all my efforts failed and the reason that I failed is because I had to teach you what I was not able to

teach you was wisdom they were born the ideas that I taught you were born out of my own limited experiences they were born out of my own biased views truth be told I do not know what is right and what is wrong explain that to Me 100% um you know right and wrong is something that we use and and I used it just a little bit ago um and I use it in the sense of uh to imply that um not everything was based upon wisdom and so um all we can do what we call

teaching are the things that we think we know and the things that we think we know are the result of our own limited experiences which we tend to have the habit of extrapolating into a universal Experience and as some sort of universal truth and it's not um we when we raise kids when we have kids we bring all of our all of our effective points and all of our ineffective points um and in many ways raising children is like victims raising victims um because when you have children you are not fully you have not achieved

some kind of Enlightenment or great massive wisdom you are still learning yourself about who you are and who you are not and what the world Really is and what life is and so it's very much an an on the job novice training um so that's what I meant by you know teaching the child through limited experiences and not knowing what what really is right and what really is wrong we consider to be right things that make us feel good and we consider to be wrong the think the things that make us feel bad and that

is hardly a litmus test for what is truth and what is not but you've shared Experiences and and some of the experiences may have been good and some of the experiences may have been bad and he can even you know the boys can make their own decisions on that but doesn't that give them a leg up on understanding hey if I'm faced with a similar experience at least I've known how my parents handled it yes I suppose um isn't that better than not having those experiences and experiencing it for themselves for the First time I

don't think it's a question of having it versus not having it I think it's a question of what the entire framework looks like I think it's the way that the puzzle pieces are arranged as opposed as opposed to whether the piece is there or not so um so if you ask it from a very narrow point of view of who isn't having the experience better than not well yes but but um there could have been see I look at it as there could have been so much more Truth there could have been so much more

wisdom that um that I wish I would have known you know back then that I didn't know and those things those things um are troubling to me I don't like not acting out of wisdom and acting out of ignorance so you'll probably you'll get a challenge from me probably from every direction if you come at it from the standpoint of you know I did a good job or whatever ever it is um it's I just don't view it that way I I I I have a Habit of very much looking yet my own deficiencies far

more than any small triumphs well one of the things that excited me when we were having that conversation last week was when you brought up this topic and you brought up this topic as being you know one of these lead topics on on these podcasts I happen to personally feel that one of the greatest responsibilities of society moving forward is for parents to step up you know I think we put too much Credence on you know people outside the household to create opportunities and to C to try to help the Next Generation evolve so if

you take a step back 19 years ago today you had your son and you guys became parents for the first time what were you thinking back then do you remember what type of parents you guys wanted to be nearly two decades ago I think when you have a child for the first time you're sort of in a way blindsided you don't know what to do you You do whatever Instinct says you learn for the first time how to feed and what to say and not say and you're you're so thrown into feeding schedules and hyper

changes and and all those things you're you're in a frenzy you don't know what to do right um so I think because all of your efforts I all of your attention is so wrapped up into um sort of the minute by minute which needs your immediate attention that um deep introspection into how to Raise a child are is not really the Forefront I think those things come later on as time goes on and the years pass and and things aren't so immediately necessary and Urgent in your fath you know as as as when the child

is born um that's when you sort of gain the time and the space to reflect um the older that they get so as you reflect now what do you feel are the most important responsibilities of a modern parent uh okay let's speak truth I think That I think that the number one thing which has to be understood by anyone listening to this podcast is that there is nothing that I'm going to say that this is what you need to do and this is not how about to do it that you should parent this way and

don't parent that way um I completely and utterly and totally categorically deny all behaviors and all dos and don'ts and tips and recommendations and that's it's complete nonsense to Me to that are that the I great majority of people that would be listening to this are either really Advocates of yours or have been following us and they understand where you stand with that so we get it but guess what we want to get inside your brain to understand what even if from your perspective right was 1 years old now yeah what what would you feel

with the wisdom that you've gained over the last you know 20 years in particular how Would you feel you would need to parent him and know his soon to be brother there is a natural instinctive tendency never to question yourself there is a natural instinct tendency to believe that the way that you feel things should be is the way things should be I think that is one of the most important things that have that is one of the most critical thing that happens to us that is really a blindfold there is no Opportunity there is

no um there is no space between ourselves and the thing that we think is the right thing to do there is a natural tendency to believe in our own godhood as parents a parent has has too much power true I agree these are the things that I these are the things that I have learned the position is far too powerful you have too much saying when they're small that you get to choose Everything and the problem with that is when any human being has too much power he's corrupted there are no consequences so what would

you when you when you think about I would say it's recognizing that fact that's what I would say is there's no doing you're going to ask me what to do I'm never going to tell you anything to do it it it is it is the recognition it is the every doing the real doing is a Non-doing the ultimate action is understanding the ultimate action is recognition seeing is the ultimate doing seeing is more doing than any possible doing you can do and that's what I love about you and I and and that's what I really

enjoy and appreciate about these conversations but I still have a point of view from the perspective that I know you guys did a lot of things right we can talk about the things you did wrong all day long right but you did a Lot of things right you got two great boys that are pursuing I'm not even going to use the word passion because they may be passionate about golf but they're pursuing something that they can they feel like they could really excel in what are the most important things that you guys got right I

I you know I I don't know in my mind is doesn't go that I'm texting your wife on the other line so tell me the truth it's I you know if you want to Know the truth you're not going to hear truth in terms of the things we got right it's far easier to tell you about the things we got wrong I mean honestly I don't know I don't know honestly I I don't know it it I don't I don't know is such a truthful answer um I don't you know if like if you decode

all of this I don't I can't tell you this is what we got right this is it's far far easier to tell you what You got wrong because because the consequences of wrong become visible to you the consequences are right not so much so tell me what you got wrong um not creating that space between myself and the how I view things um believing in the power of my position without questioning it um not viewing things from the perspective of the child more often uh being intoxicated too much by my own drive or whatever it

was for and are you referencing golf when you're Talking about that I'm referencing everything um but probably the most thing I was driven about was golf yes because that's what we did that's what that's what they excelled at that's what they wanted to do that's what we that's what everything was well there are eight kids playing on the Oklahoma State golf team they're number one in the country if I were to ask him you know or the the 10 years that you worked with your dad to get to This position worth the opportunity to play

what would he tell me I don't know and I'm going to go on a limb and say he'd probably say yeah absolutely it was worth it but I I want to take I want to go back to a point that you made that I think is really really critical which is looking at the world from the kids' perspective what causes us not to do that I think what prevents a parent from looking through The perspective of the child is a facet of human nature which is that um unless a human being is required to do

something he won't unless his back is against the wall unless he feels a consequence um he he will not be compelled to do anything other than what is most instinctive and readily available to him no human being acts unless there's a consequence without a Consequence um a person will act and will act and act upon whatever intin is available to him he he will he will avail himself of the luxury of godhood which is why I think parents have too much power well isn't the consequence of raising good kids that have High character isn't that

enough know that at the time you don't know that at the time but don't you get a glimpse of it no you Don't have that you don't have that wide angle lens when they're very small um everything is just too new you are a different person uh than you were before you had kids after you had kids you know you have a very hard time remembering what it was like not to have them um so you you are you are thrust into a role with which you have no familiarity so your physiology is different everything

is different different and so you you are you are put In this position of uh throne and it's too much too soon but we do it I think you fall back on your human nature and then human nature is self first so how would you describe the love you have for your boys you know you you have raised a black box of of a little word um that's a very very difficult it's a very difficult word to Define and I don't know what it means I don't know what the word love I know what the

word Attachment means but I know for a I know for a 100% fact that the vast majority of time that the word love is used it is actually describing attachment sure I can see that I'm with you on that okay so so what's a prop I think for what the relationship that you both of you guys have with your boys I don't know what a proper term is I think honestly the proper term probably is Learning that's probably the most proper term is to learn is to learn what what the truth about it really is

is to learn what ways are effective and what is not more importantly it's to learn what are the instincts that you have as a parent where they come from and to make certain that they are not coming from a place that has no feedback loop so that you don't become corrupted by your own Power if if I were to ask the boys how would they describe their relationship with you guys how would they describe it do you have an idea it the only thing that would matter is what they actually said the guess is just

theoretical chitch so what did they tell you about what what what did I what about the relationship that you guys had developed because one of the things too that you had said in in one of the Discourses or was that hey the ultimate reason that you love in this context him in this discourse was because you abandoned all need from him and from anyone and anything else in the world yeah that's 100 that's absolutely true yeah um um what happens is see all these Tendencies tend to come up I mean everything is cause and effect

right so one of the effects of having a child is that all of your attention goes on the Child now when I first when I say when I make that statement it's an innocuous statement and it sounds actually reasonable and logical and of course your attention should go on the child but when I say that your attention goes on the child I'm talking about not just the Gaze of attention but the weight of it I think that I think that that that everything the the spotlight becomes too bright and that creates sort of uh a

sense of imprisonment I think because Too much attention goes on the child not in the attention of attending to their needs and that kind of thing but intention in terms of expectation can me it you you you fall into the Trap of attachment and with attachment comes meat and you and no matter how innocuous and how innocent and and um societally acceptable it may be that need may be it's still a need and it isn't that it's wrong to have needs or right to have needs it is what is the Effect of having a need

and the effect of having a need is that it imprisons the child to be to have to satisfy that need and if that need is not satisfied then there is turmoil there's turmoil for the one for not having satisfied it and there's a turmoil for one whose need was not fulfilled so would you Des when you when you take a step back how would you describe the relationship that you have developed with the boys I I I yeah I'll tell you Right now the relationship that I have developed is to watch me learn about my

own deficiency 95% of the conversations that we have now are about the things that I have learned and the things that I still have to learn and the wisdom that I need to um acquire and to learn why some of the things why things that we do we do where where the cause and effect of things lie uh what the Mind does to us those are sort of those are the conversations that We have so as they observe that obviously those are experiences that they can take and apply to their own life you agree uh

sure but that's theoretical but yes I mean it it wouldn't matter to me if they never applied it because that isn't why I did it I I don't do it in order to teach I am in many ways so beyond teaching um you know I I do it and I did it because it is a way for me to shed light on the truth behind all these Relationships so that I can learn I didn't do it in order to hey watch me and look how introspective I'm being so that you can then learn that no

it has to be pure it has to be genuine and if there's any sense of uh listen if a child has any sense that you're trying to teach him something he shuts off so it isn't about it isn't about teaching it isn't it isn't about you know look at me it it's you know whatever wears off wears off And you can never predict what wears off what wears off and the things that they hear are things that you never even thought they heard and the things that you emphatically stated are definitely the things I didn't

hear so that's a no- win game that goes nowhere if you're going to be authentic and and true to yourself and state um what you feel about things and why you think think things are the way they are and and you're you're you're doing it inside Yourself even though you're doing that out loud in front of them then do it but as a way to teach them then it becomes disingenuous so when they watch you and observe you talk about the mind the imprisonment of the Mind what it does to us and what it does

for us how do they take that and translate it into their own life people come to you and engage you and pay you a lot of money to try to help them deal with it maybe not conquer it but deal with it you have two young Boys at home home that have great character that want to do something with their lives when they ask you those questions how do you respond oh I respond totally honestly um but but there's a difficulty with that response why do they take it differently than than anyone else no there's

a there's there's a there's a difficulty with my response because my responses you know and I'm trying to make them 100% pure but often times they're not my respon Responses are uh they're the truth but they're tinged with a thread of desire in other words and once again this is going to be pursued as well what's wrong with that well to me there's a problem um yeah there can be no desire if to arrive at 100% truth and 100% wisdom there can be no desire on my part as to how far they go and how

successful they become okay so if there is then even though I gave them the truth that lining of Desire makes it lose its power a bit But they still want to know you're you know sometimes sometimes Mommy and Daddy are superheroes right I want to know hey if Dad has gotten the glimpse of what it takes to not be imprisoned by his mind or Mom with her mind I just want to know whether or not I can do it myself another thing but I want to know how did you do it no no that is

not a that is a teenager question that's a 49 to 72 year old question so I'm asking in some cases yeah as a 25y old I'm asking you yeah Most 25 year olds would even ask that question that's that's a that's a later in life question no one you you don't get to that kind of question yes there are some 20 year olds that I've work with that have asked me that question it's very rare usually you're 35 and up so give me a glimpse of what you say to what question to ask the question

to to the whole idea of the the notion of experiencing the the mind and why it imprisons us and what I can do about it To at least gain some element of freedom from it well no one asks it that purely everyone comes at it because there is something that is deeply troubling them and then that becomes their entry point into this conversation if someone is perfectly so-called happy or content they're not going to have any interest such a question that question is not going to arise that kind of question only arises from pain so

I want to know right I want to get rid of frictions in My own life I think it comes down to a desire to want to stop playing the game um the game of conflict followed by temporary resolution followed by um rekindling of the conflict followed by another resolution followed by confusion followed by sadness followed by forgiveness followed by apology followed by conflict against that whole game um one has to arrive at the point where he recognizes that this apology And this forgiveness and this end end of conflict is U only it's only a matter

matter of time before it begins again because it is it is extraordinarily convincing that once you know apologies and so forth are made and and the conflict ends that this is going to be it and it's never it so um the reason that it continues is because that is not seen it is it is one is inclined to believe that that's it so when one reaches the point that he fully and Without a single doubt recognizes and sees once again that it is absolutely going to continue then he begins to ask different questions then he

stops asking how do I end this conflict how do I make the other person feel X and Y what did I do wrong and how should I improve my behavior and what should I say he stops asking those questions which only lead to more conflict and he starts asking questions like the one you asked about how do you get to the point of Freedom So that's where it arises from there's some level pain that usually is the the um impetus for um exploring this deep realm and what do you discover it I mean what have

you discovered about yourself that gets in the way of us getting ready of that pain I know it's not self forgiveness yeah no um getting rid of the pain I think is a uh understanding that firstly no one really ever does anything to us and that all all of the things that we do we do to ourselves and That part and partial with that in the very same breath I will say that just because we do it to to ourselves it does not mean that there is self- blamed so there cannot be any guilt and

there cannot be any blame and I sort of don't like what I just said because it came across as too prescriptive and someone's going to write that down they okay from now on I'm going to practice not having guilt and not having blame and in doing so they just ruined the whole game but It goes back to the notion that you've shared many times that I think is really kind of a defining characteristic of what we deal with was is this whole idea that all conflict is self-conflict whether you consider that a prescription or not

that's real and as long as we can understand that and experience that that in and of itself can it lead help us get on a path yes yes absolutely why do you say that why do you say that most human beings will never be content with who we Are you know how you can't be content with something that you don't understand you can't be content with with something that's always changing how are you going to build your house on shifting sand so is that a is that a p a constant path to misery oh it's

it doesn't go anywhere to be content with who you are basically means that you are content with who you think you are and who you think you are is essentially a bunch of personality traits how can you be content with a Bunch of personality traits those traits are going to change according to whoever you meet in the street there's no Solid Ground so what's a better way to refrain it is contentment the right the wrong word well no the thing that you're trying to be content with is the wrong word you can't be content with

a moving Target so what does that lead to you know none of us want to live miserable lives yes yes and I think the number one the number one understanding that has to Arise from that is that if if you do not want to live a miserable life then what must be understood is that the pursuit of any prescription will absolutely submit your misery and the reason that that is the case is because whenever you try to fix something you only perpetuate it because these things are not fixable they are only seeable fixing is manipulation

and whenever you manipulate something you may fix one side but then you have ruined the other side so it is Enough for us to understand this whole idea not going to be content with with who we are well you said it too easily you said it is it is it enough for us to understand that we're not going to be content with who we are you didn't emphasize the fact that the reason that that is not possible is I mean that was almost that was going to be that's going to be du as a defe

statement and and what I'm saying is that the reason that contentment with the self is not Possible is because the self is a moving Target who you believe yourself to be is not who you really are because it's constantly changing yeah well that's the mind the mind is like the weather right the Mind changes every 5 minutes if you're sad just wait 10 minutes and you'll be feeling something else how are you going to PL a flag there we try only because only because it has seen as immovable only because it is seen of something

solid so you you always Fascinate me and I want to just I want to kind of take a loop back to a question I asked you before and maybe just end with with some thoughts on parent in um the question I asked you before again was something that you had referenced about humans never allowing themselves to stray too far from their competition and the reason I had asked you that was because we're a product of our own environment we're product of our environment at home we're a product of Our environment with our Inner Circle and

certainly at work and so forth and so on the few that stray from that environment what what are they doing to get away from their competition what are they doing what are these top golfers and you know Elite CEOs that you're working with that choose not to put themselves on that same playing field as their competitors well I I didn't say that people that that that the select few Don't Stray from their Competition I said that They Don't Stray too far so the competition is always in sight right so I wouldn't say that professional golfers

stray from the competition almost at all you right um they they you know professional golfers like many other Professionals in other in other domains they you know they spend their lives trying to they spend their careers trying to differentiate themselves from one another but in fact what they do is become one another it's Very nepotistic they they they they speak the same language they talk the same coaches they listen to the same instructions they read the same books that it you you can't help but become each other because they live in this in this closed

environment in which you know the vents in that environment blow this this sort of manufactured air which has a fundamentally different you know uh percentage of of oxygen and than than That is than that which is present in the real world so everyone sort of drinks the Kool-Aid and that's true in all aspects of life I I think well that's because yeah it's the nature of human beings but but if one begins to understand that deeply um uh then he no longer needs the competition other than fear what keeps us stuck there the um the

uncomfortableness of being alone and you just got to you got to just accept that and deal with it I I hate the word Deal with I don't like deal with um uh you don't have to accept anything or deal with anything it's it's understanding what your natural proclivities are as a human being and if you understand and see your natural tendencies only then do you have uh the insight and the opportunity to not succumb to that so speaking of that maybe we wrap up with this how do you at this stage in your life how

do you guys become a great resource for your boys as They continue to grow up as they continue to pursue their professional Endeavors you told me what you did wrong you probably did few things right but what is it that moving forward you've got two special teenage boys how do how does the household continue to be useful to them as they continue to grow up by being honest about everything that's fair and and you probably find that that that that's the minority well yeah I don't Want to judge any body um but is the truth

in in life and well it is well it is and that's just tends to be a habit that you know everyone tends to pull punches and Flinch and and and so forth um but uh very few people are honest with themselves um uh because they have ready made answers that their culture has given them as to why they make the mistakes they do and because they use those prepackaged answers they never arrive at the ultimate truth and Therefore they never become free so everything begins with honesty and encouraging honesty with the understanding that you know

if you speak your innermost thoughts and feelings they will be respected so leave leave everyone listening with a question to ask themselves until next time in St I put up a question the other day on Twitter to ask your children which was what is it that I have never really Understood about you wonderful what is it that I haven't really understood about you that is a wonderful question for us to ask our kids for us to ask our you know our closest relationships and we can go on and on and on but that's a good

place to end we want to dive into something today that I think is really relevant for uh all aspects of Life personally and professionally it's this whole idea of greatness um capil you deal with it all The time uh we were just talking about your kids and their Ascension in golf hopefully we can get into that a little bit today but in in framing this conversation about this pursuit of greatness or this continual pursuit of greatness i' I'd like us to kind of start by agreeing on a definition of greatness or ask you to tell

me what greatness or Excellence looks like you know it's a good question but I don't think definitions go anywhere um All I will say is that it is arriving at some form or fashion of a pinnacle um in one's profession and how do we know like like for example like is a pinnacle in golf is it winning a major or is it winning multiple Majors I mean how would you define that Pinnacle yeah that that's undefinable I mean there are some there are some players uh some athletes who look at um their role in professional

sports as making a good living and there Are others who look at it as becoming a world number one and so that's all very personal um there's nothing against the person who looks at it as making a living versus the world number one um that that's just a a function of how how one thinks but do you really think that the person who's looking at it from the perspective of making a living um which like you said certainly I've respect for but that is a completely different mindset than somebody who's trying to be The best

at what they do or the best in the world at what they do they're not the same people that's correct with a different form of DNA let's talk about the latter let's talk about the person who wants to be the the best in the world walk me through what it takes to get to that level um I think first and foremost is a a DNA which completely rejects one's own culture I think the culture in society Um in just regular Society the culture in Sports the culture in business every domain every discipline has its own

culture and that culture is composed of the prevailing beliefs dogmas Notions um the traditional way and the status quo uh of the way that things are done and I think that a person who has the DNA to completely walk against Against the Grain because they Harbor a deep seated um understanding that the masses and the Majority and the status quo and the Traditions are always wrong and they and that they can only lead to a very limited outcome and I think anybody who has listened to any of our conversations read any of your discourses know

that that is a place where you live you're almost kind of this opposing perspective and if we can break down this DNA for a moment let's talk about what that DNA Looks like certainly um I like to believe that the people who are going to listen and pay attention to our conversations are at least seeking that DNA um it's not something that we're all born with right it's something that we have to work towards and a lot of people talk about hey being the best in the world a lot of times isn't fun because it

requires rigor self-discipline and an enormous commitment that very few people want to make would you Agree yeah but it isn't you're going down the path of hard work and I don't have much respect for hard work I think hard work is largely a form of anxiety uh rather than a natural Pursuit um I think I think hard work is sort of a uh it's a middleman uh it's an intermediary and I don't like middlemen they don't go anywhere um it everything has to be from the horse's mouth to the horse's mouth And hard work is

this idea well if I put in the hours and if I do the quote work and if I follow the instruction and if I work day and night and if I romantically make my hands bleed and that that will buy me something and I don't think it does because I don't think there's a shortage of people who work hard and get nowhere so I don't buy the idea of hard work being a reliable vehicle to anything in the same way that I don't buy any intermediary as being a Trustworthy and reliable vehicle to getting anywhere

I think everything arises spontaneously when the person has no choice but to quot make it um then he might certainly quote put in the hours and certainly devote his life to it um and from an external point of view as someone who is looking at that person the person who's watching might say oh look that person's working hard but that person really isn't using hard work as a a vehicle it isn't like a degree that if I get my degree I'll get a job it isn't like that um it's it's the hard work is secondary

um the the the Mania and the obsession and the uh that the possibility of not having it simply isn't acceptable and and I'll have to qualify what I just said because some are going to hear that as positive thinking and once again when you reject everything I have to keep putting disclaimers in right so uh you know positive thinking is just nonsense Because the person who makes it knows he's going to make it he doesn't positive think his way into it because positive thinking relies upon hope and the person who doesn't have a choice has

no hope it's just done it's already done and therefore he carries out whatever needs to be done to make it a reality in the real world after it becomes a reality in his mind so when I look at myself in the mirror and I make a commitment to that person staring at The person the mirror N I don't like I don't like commitment I don't like commitment because commitment is for it's it's forced listen listen listen so how so how would you do if your boss if hang on if if your boss says to you

okay um if if you don't come in to work tomorrow I'm going to repossess your car repossess your house and I'm going to have you living in the street if you're not here by 9: I can promise you one thing you are not Going to need to make a commitment to be there at 9 I will be there at n you're right okay okay so there's no commitment that's more added steps that's more that's more more of this academic jargon okay it's irrelevant there is no commitment only desire there's only there's only a a a

nonchoice filled desire the person who's going to make it is just going to make it he knows it he feels it like I said everything is done done before it is Done so I don't buy anything related to if I do this then I will get that that's hope that's commitment that's discipline I don't buy discipline either discipline is this discipline is also an added extra it is baggage it's irrelevant um the person who is sufficiently Desiring of it he will have the discipline but not the reverse you can force yourself into a discipline and

you can have your nice morning routines and all that stuff but that that isn't natural that it it's It's only when you reach a level of desperation that all those things fall in place for you you don't pick them off one by one as some sort of uh intentional conscious doing so what gets in the way then of the great Maj overwhelming majority of us not having the opportunity to achieve that level of greatness that we're talking about here there has to be something that gets in the way or a lot of things that get

in the way sure and I'll tell you one of the main things is belief um human beings have a habit of subscribing to belief and then they go down a positive thinking in the self-development route and then they read books about how to change your beliefs right make them more empowering and and positive and uh self-affirmations and self talk and all this stuff and you can't believe your way anywhere either it's a knowing so what gets in The way is belief belief is the costliest thing in a human being's life so how so what do

you replace it with knowing so do I know the unknown that hey I'm going to pursue this you don't replace it with anything you don't replace it with anything okay The Knowing that's there wasn't placed there it's just was okay you don't replace it with anything it is the understanding that if you believe the things that you are Told you will be massively and enormously limited if you believe the stories that your mind tells you about yourself you will be massively and enormously limited so you ask questions to quickly Mo when you ask a question

and then I respond you immediately run away like the stove is too hot and you jump to the other side and say well how do you fix that you you haven't heard me yet you have to hear what I'm saying not so that you can Follow it you can that you can do what I say I'm not saying to do anything it it's it's listen with understanding not for not listen with the opportunity to ask how I'm never going to give it to you because it doesn't exist so so belief is a massive massive problem

and the idea that one must change his beliefs is more imprisonment so that's what gets in the way what gets in the way to be succinct what gets in the way that is that human beings are very quick To believe that what they hear either from others or from their own mind is true so who would we trust if we're not going to trust anybody else's opinion or perspective who and not that people's opinions matter but who do we trust that's a wonderful question you trust the unnamed non entity within you that speaks to you

and upon its speaking you immediately know and what ises that look like did you is that just an intuitive feeling absolutely Absolutely it listen it is not about what is there it is about what is there after what needs to be removed is removed so it is not about what is there it's about what is left so when a person subscribes to no belief not by description just genuinely when he begins to doubt all the lies that his mind tell him then the things that remained that had been trying to come to the surface but

have Not been able to because they've been drowned up by the belief that thing is finally able to come to the surface and that is an unnamed non- entity to which I will never give a name because the moment I give a name to it there will be a discussion about it and as long as there's a discussion about it it will not be seen so I'm curious what kind of questions are you asking yourself every Day about your own Pursuit that's a good question uh what is it that I have not understood is the

question that torments me about everything I know for a fact without without a shadow of a doubt that there are as we sit here at this very moment there are so many things that I just don't see yet and even though I don't see them I am a victim of them because of not Seeing them and that deeply bothers me and has there been something over the last month or so that you've seen that opened your your eyes to something that you didn't know before about this whole seed of greatness it's not about epiphanies really

it's about constant refinement of understanding that in its aggregate uh results in Epiphany as opposed to Eureka and and Eureka moments you know um I think one thing that we discussed before Is the idea of uh self-sufficiency and Independence and arriving at the place where the inspiration arises from you for whatever reason as opposed to being imposed upon you by Society or by parents or by anyone else well one of the things that I'm learning about you that's deeply fascinating to me that I want to seriously be very conscious of I see you as someone

who's constantly editing your life and you know people can take that For whatever it's worth but you're constantly Reinventing refining and so forth what is it over the last couple of years that you have done to get away from some of perhaps some of those beliefs that you personally have had and start moving towards understanding where your own greatness lies I think it's just a I think I think everything is qualitative uh much more than quantitative and I think qualitatively what matures over Time is not really skill but sincerity what matures over time is maturity

um your level of understanding matures it grows deeper um it it it becomes more nuanced uh it becomes um bolstered it is so it isn't it isn't it isn't from a zero to one it's it's um it may still be one but that one is a very different qualitative one um so it is it is you know one may know for Instance that um the story that their mind tells them are lies okay he may have heard that okay that means nothing it does nothing just because someone heard it they may have heard it 30

times still means nothing but but when that realization begins to hit um that is the qualitative difference that is the maturity that is the increased level of sincerity of that understanding and so this is this is at Once at odds with the manner in which society does things which is that it views things from a standpoint of in formation that that uh a human being is an invalid who needs to be filled with information well if a human being is an invalid it isn't because he lacks information it's be it's that he doesn't understand the

information on a visceral level you can pack any amount of knowledge into a Computer um but it is it is whether that knowledge gets into the bloodstream that it means anything and neither is is it about well people are told but do they actually do well that's nonsense too there's no doing um doing is all reactive doing is is a camouflage that is that is carried out in order to hide the fact that one does not understand so I would say that it is the quality of one's understanding that matures over time it isn't necessarily

The uh quantitative in increase in the amount of knowledge that one uh that one sort of uh Garners so what is the opposite of doing if we're not doing what are we doing we're all trying to act in some way shape or form right yes yes but that everyone is trying to act for the same reason that you ask me how because understanding isn't perceived as being of very high value this is a Cosmetic superficial Society where Botox is the order of the day well no one's going to argue with that okay so that Botox

pervades all facets of society so if someone acts and they sweat and they bleed and they're out of breath they can show the world and themselves that I did and that's why they do it it isn't to get Anywhere um I think the idea of getting somewhere is less appealing to human beings than the idea of effort human beings measure themselves by effort not by a rival and it is for this reason that you have um uh employ employers who uh who reprimand employees who are efficient efficiency is very much a liability in The workforce

a person who's efficient and gets seven hours of work done within one hour is considered lazy because he has 6 hours of of left over the person who can do it in one hour but take seven hours is considered hardworking because he worked all day this is the world that we live in it is not filled with highly intelligent people it is filled with people who follow others it is filled With sheep who do not think deeply who are reactive who are filled with conditions the conditioning um and they carry out that conditioning in their

daily lives without ever having examined what it is that they're actually doing another common example of this is is um uh the Committees uh who are on the board of uh of colleges and you know universities and so forth who look at all the applications that come in right to see who they accept you know Those committees are filled with people who are 60 and 70 years old and they at 60 and have yet to come to the conclusion that one's grades and one's test scores have no bearing whatsoever on their potential sure their level

of intelligence or where they go in life how can you get to be 60 or 70 years old and not come to that basic realization I can understand that you're dumb when you're 20 but you shouldn't be stupid when you're 70 there should be a law against that I mean they say that that you know with age comes wisdom obviously not so when you don't spend you you don't spend the the your days and your time during the course of those days doing anything are you spending them in trying to understand is that where your

head is is that a better term yes that's absolutely that's where I live yeah yeah Whatever whatever activity or whatever thing I may be involved in I am wholeheartedly I never leave it I never leave the world of the of examining how the mind is influencing me and uh what is the truth and what is the lie that's where I'm defaulted towards that's what I have spent years reorienting myself towards to where now it's automatic that's just that's just where where the the uh the the headlights shine Immediately just to discover that well you said

something recently that really resonated with me and I think it's very appropriate for one this time of year but two for this conversation and when you were talking about the secret to change the the secret to people changing you know it keeps us from experiencing these dramatic changes isn't that we don't want to change it's that we're unfamiliar with who and how to be in This newfound State and everybody's thinking about New Year's resolutions and I'm going to be told totally different and do great things next year explain this whole idea of what keeps us

stuck isn't that we don't want to change it's the fact that we're not familiar with this new who or how um state that we're going to be in yeah I think you're referencing the Twitter message and I'm shocked I actually remember it um I'm shocked too It was yeah um I think comfort and familiarity is a very big deal and when you live in a particular town you know where the grocery store is you know where the gas station is right you know where the flower shop is um you know where your work is you

know all the roots in the different back ways to get there in case there's traffic right you you you know everything and it's on automatic pilot um there's a certain Level of familiarity now if you are dropped off into a new country um and S suddenly you don't know where anything is and it isn't just as simple as not knowing where the grocery store is you're sort of out of your element um you're sort of wandering to see how things work in this new sort of sort of place and that is that is very um

that can produce a lot of anxiety uh a lot of uncertainty and human beings like certainty so you know Whether it comes to you know personal development or um uh what you know learning a new skill or whatever it is uh human beings never stray too far from their competition and they never stray too far from their current level of skill level because whenever wherever you live uh that that town the metaphor for that town is who you believe yourself to be your set of skills your physical characteristics your beliefs um and so You have

so a person has developed a identity around those things and those things are home so in order to come in order to to reach a new level of understanding uh that is significantly um uh different than what one understands right now or to arrive at a new place of Fitness or arrive at you know a massively different physical appearance whatever it may be um that requires a relearning uh of a completely new Environment and so one has to be comfortable with and and or look forward to or Embrace naturally not prescriptively I hate the word

Embrace uh that that new environment that new town that new city and unless that is in place uh one will never too far and where do you start how start to do that yeah I mean and I got a funny story to share about that but like like if you have somebody who's very serious and and and Embraces what you're saying How do I start to get comfortable with you why did you pick up on Embrace I knew that you were going to pick up on that even though I said I hated that word you're

going to use Embrace and then everyone in the audience is going to say Embrace Embrace Embrace I descrition okay Embrace is not an action it's it's a natural occurrence it's like accept right I like that either because accept is like forced acceptance nothing can be Forced all right if it isn't already there forget about it it's useless so um what I would tell them is what I just told you it is about the UN it is about explaining to human beings how things work what they do is up to them listen the the the sky

is blue uh it's cold in the winter right um snow Falls in Canada all right so th those are the facts those are the truths right you can ignore them you can procrastinate you can say where you are It doesn't matter those are the truths I never going to tell you which way to walk because the SEC that's what you want me to do well what's wrong with giving you what you want well the reason that you want me to do want me to tell you that that is because you don't really want to get

there so I'm not going to help you not get there I don't care if you get there but I'm not going to help you not get there so it isn't about what you should Do I would tell them what I just told you that in order for transformation or a massive change to occur a level of comfort or looking forward to or enthusiasm of the new environment which is completely foreign to that person will require a new self-image most likely and unless that is in place and mean the desire for that is in place they're

never going to stay too far are you constantly no and no I did Not say I did not say that make sure that you enjoy the new place make sure that you make yourself look forward to anything I said that is what is required not that you have to do it how often are you getting a new self-image of yourself oh my God are you kidding me it isn't about a new self-image it is complete annihilation of any self-image how often does that happen Regularly it's not a it's not a numbers thing it is it

is a it is a it is a qualitative divorce forcing away from the belief in self-image it isn't I did it 14 times this week and 17 times last week that's meditation I've done 20 minutes how much did you do well Sally did 14 minutes and she's on her way up well she saw that guy down the street who's a wonderful meditator and his clothes are just wonderful and the incense this smells Fantastic and he's up to an hour so I'm going to make myself go to an hour it is none of that nonsense it

isn't it isn't numbers it isn't quantity it's quality it's visceral what makes success so difficult to repeat you mean and however you know you look at Athletics it's easy to measure Athletics very few teams ever win back-to-back titles or you know very few golfers ever win in the same year you Know that's why we we Marvel at people who win Grand Slams yeah those are okay okay those are very interesting questions okay and are wonderful questions because I I love to explore those questions so you know in golf it said that you you know it's

very difficult to follow up a low round with another low round in golf it's often said that as you just said that if you it's often the case that a um a a person who is a young uh a young person on the Tour who just got his tour card you know if he wins once you probably won't win for a very long time now it's it's how you that so well no but hang on it's true okay it's true but you're too enthusiastic about it being true Okay Okay the reason that everyone jumps on

that is because they are dying to express their preformed and prepackaged opinion as to why that is the case and the reason that they are dying to express their preformed and Prepackaged opinion is because have an agenda what is the agenda the agenda is professional golf is hard the agenda is not only is it hard I need you to believe that it's massively hard because we have a brand and that brand needs to be protected so we will do all that we can to separate ourselves from the rest of society so we must build it

up I don't blame them for building it up it's marketing okay but when you live in that Room and you are constantly given that message guess what you become so we haven't seen the truth we have only seen conditioned responses so that the truth would only be known if you had two populations one population continually heard the message the Kool-Aid the recycled air and then the other population lived in a jungle and they never heard the Kool-Aid never drank the Kool-Aid and And and breathed the recycled air then you could say that even if the

even if the the the environment that lived in the jungle so to speak that was never exposed to the talking heads and the media and so forth um and the prevailing Dogma that if they produce the same results then maybe there is something natural going on on which might make that true but you can't say that as long as there is an interference factor of the media and the Recycled air and the Kool-Aid how you cannot say that that is natural and that is not created and manufactured by Propaganda it sells books and it sells

eyeballs sure sure but the player himself doesn't care about that um he's the one who really suffers right back back to our original statement when we first started today it was it's buying into the culture see the person who rejects Everything who knows that everything out of everyone's mouth is a lie that person's got a chance so I've never asked you he suddenly he suddenly becomes he suddenly becomes immune and no longer subject to the propaganda and and by the way uh you know in you know in order to address quickly the the um you

know the outraged so to speak you know they're going to come back with well you don't think golf is hard think the PJ tour is easy you Know that's always the outraged questions right there there's no interest in seeing the truth I just want to you know Express outrage and of course golf is difficult and of course the PJ tour is full of great players um but the results that are happening cannot be ascribed to Natural human Tendencies they can be ascribed to interference by Propaganda and the influence of a cultural environment as a petri

dish in which the players Live I I was going to say I never I've never asked you this on the record and I think it's it it kind of bears a conversation because it's right around this whole idea of how do you repeat success a decade ago Tiger Woods was almost unbeatable right it seems like every time time he would step up uh you know on on on a Sunday round he knew that he could win What In Your Eyes is an outsider even with Insider information what is the biggest Difference between tiger 10 years

ago and the guy who's you know doing everything he can to get back in the game today well back then tiger was Tiger what did you see there what was T what is what does it mean to be tiger well isn't what I saw it's what he saw um tiger was completely immersed in the Persona that was created and he rode That motivation and inspiration um and momentum all the way that character of Tiger Woods was the vehicle that took him to the top when there is a [ __ ] in the armor for whatever

reason self-doubt Creeps in and a person drops from immortality to becoming mortal it's all on the mind the Tiger's talent talent didn't go away um I mean sure there was injuries And that's obviously a factor um but you know tiger knows how to play and his understanding of how to play is superior to anyone in the game how to play tiger understands the game better than everyone that was a large part that was a large reason for the winds um the other part of the Winds was that uh in my opinion the those who played

against tiger during his um prime Years felt the Persona of tiger toh so they were out of their element because they felt like they needed to hit perfect shots they forced to the issue and down the stretch they sort of fell away leaving it goes back to what we said earlier that it isn't what's there it's what's left and tiger was you know golf is largely a game of attrition and and uh and Jack played the same way Nicholas the same thing he was the last one standing so Tiger Tiger plays very much in a

in a Eastern Zen style of play and so to Jack and uh going back to the topic of greatness I think that is a running thread amongst individuals who become great is that they understand how things come to them they don't force things and they don't chase things they become attractors of Things and though I didn't say anything about the law of attraction um they they they understand how the game works and they try to achieve more by doing less um it is very very much the opposite of the western culture it's very Eastern um

you know you'll have Jason day for instance as Tiger Woods that you know you know tiger how it is how is it that I that I win and and tiger will give him sort of an abstract answer and Jason will get upset and say well why can't you just tell me straight out and that's exactly the point is that there is no straight out there's no recipe um it's it's a you know it's the color of wind you know it's it's it's feeling things between your fingers it's it's Nuance it's it's touch and feel it's

sensitivity um it's art it isn't science it isn't Method if somebody comes to you tomorrow a say a a leader of an organization who's just had a record year in however whether it's performance their stock whatever and they come to you and they say Hey you know heading into this next year we're deathly afraid to not fall on our face what can we do to keep keep this growth going how do you respond well they're looking in the wrong the wrong place and they're asking the wrong question you know anything That you do out of

fear will fail what's the what's a better question fear fear is a great motivator there's no doubt about it but that motivation is best spent examining the holes in one's game as opposed to trying to improve one's game because if you remove the holes greatness happens by itself so it it really becomes once again there are no business problems right there only human problems um so so the game Begins the the game is to understand the game Within the game so it is to understand what is it that I do not understand where are the

deficiencies in my 360° understanding of my business and how could I understand it better what are the beliefs that I have that are causing me problems it is those qualitative questions as opposed to an alarmist sort of uh I need to know what to do in order to get a certain it's none of that that's that's very common thinking that Isn't greatness um greatness is very soft and very deep and very nuanced and very incisive it is it is an examination it is a desire to know as opposed to a compulsion to do there's a

phrase that you hear a lot in whenever you talk about high Achievers or human performance when people talk a lot about even athletes themselves or or Business Leaders you got to love the process you gotta love The process it's hard work trust the process how do you feel about that the idea is valid the delivery is not help ref frame it for me well it's it's how it's going to be heard um it's you know it's kind of like the 10,000 hours thing right so you know I exchanged some very respectful emails with Andrew Ericson

uh at Florida State um at least he was or the state I'm not Sure where he is now uh a number of years ago regarding the 10,000 hour rule and you know gladwell's popularization of it through outliners and I said you know the problem with the $10,000 rule regardless of whether it's valid or not let's forget about that okay the problem is that the effect it's going to have is going to be counter is going to be counterproductive Because people are going to hear the 10 10,000 hour rule and since we live in a in

a howto society and people are looking for what to do next and how to this and five steps to this and list post this and nonsense upon nonsense um they are going to use that and swallow it up as the how to they're going to take out their clocks and they're going to start measuring hours which is what is happening and And nobody who becomes great measures the hours and once the alarm Bell goes off the 10,000 hours are up I'm great that's that's silly that's fantasy so it must be understood Mo that in many

ways whenever you speak you lie because truth is very diff ult to capture in words and and most importantly the person who is hearing The truth must be of a sufficient level of evolution to be exposed to it otherwise they will naturally uh react with outrage and how to and will not benefit from it at all so telling someone that it's a you got to love the process we're back to sort of you got to love being uncomfortable in the new city once you become so highly self-developed it's not about that it it It may

in the end be that that's fine that may be a truth but it certainly can't be the vehicle because why because people will then say I must learn to love the process and that will be fake they will grit their teeth and try to love the process that's nonsense it is not genuine and anything that is not genuine natural Falls flat you can grit your teeth today and you can grit your teeth next week but Eventually either you're going to open your mouth or your teeth are going to crumble one of those two things is

going to happen because it wasn't natural it was forced do you see a correlation between the connection of someone's spiritual core and their level of success uh more specific am I if if I am really working hard to to understand the core of my existence is that am I working towards This pursuit of greatness am I going to start to see the closer that I get to understanding my own truth is that path going to be a little bit clearer for me um I think it will but but but it has to be once again

I mean one could view that and say well as long as I'm I'm I'm as long as I'm looking for the truth in myself that everything will take care of itself and that'll be that'll become an intermediary of its own so there has to Be a level of practicality that is pursued in the specific domain in which one is working so nothing is that clean so my so let's let's put the domain let's let's keep it in business right very few business people very few leaders in companies are going to talk about the truth in

the manner that you talk about they're not going to talk about it certainly it's not happening in boardrooms right so what is It that we can start to understand better about the course correlation between one's understanding of him or herself and their ultimate output or success it to understand that everything begins and ends with the human mind that all of your problems that exist and all of the ways that exist to uh great success and to Greatness all exists within the mind and not in methodology it does not exist in the uh in the world

Of activity or action or strategy or business ideas or Business Development or seven ways of following people who were a success or buying business books it is once again we've come full circle is is a complete rejection of the idea of status quo it is a complete a person has to have that DNA to totally reject the status quo all right two more things for you all right I want to talk a little bit About adversity that's one of the things that often comes up again when you talk about sustained Excellence is that you all

of us have to deal with it and the ones who are able to get past whatever universities are dealing with have a better opportunity to to experience that sustained Excellence what is the method if there is a method for you to think about adversity when something out of the ordinary happens what do you do to start thinking About it to understand where it came from to understand the lack of to understand the to understand the holes in one's understanding and what what that situation represents as opposed to what to do about it one has to

understand that reflexively jumping to a solution will create more and more problems and that is a that is very is a very foreign construct that is a very um out of the world sort of idea that is Different from uh traditional society and business because everyone looks for Solutions the thing is the solution to any problem is hidden and it's hidden in the most ingenious of places which is in the very deep center of the problem so the only person who finds it is the person who understands the problem but nobody wants to look at

the problem they want a fix to the problem and when you seek fixes to Problem you go on an endless goose chase for more and more fixes and thus you get more and more problems are there a question or two that you ask yourself when something like that happens what what is the gap in understanding about about knowing that one must look at the problem and not seek a solution how can that be Misunderstood why does an extra question have to be at it because people want to know like you said we live in a

solution if they want to know if they want to know then I just told them what to know you know which leads me to I want to ask you this last question because it came directly from as a result of our last conversation our last conversation was on parenting but I don't think this question is is as much related to that But it's an about the idea of patience several people ask me to get your Insight on patience you know people who listen to you know that you're not a very patient person right it's kind

of this whole idea of trust the process no you want to get to the result give me your thoughts on patient are you a patient person no absolutely not Uh patients is one of those you know things that that is uh that Echoes across the Halls of the Ivory Towers has nothing to do with practicality uh in the real world you know patience is like patience is like compromise it's fine to be patient and compromise on the things that you don't really care about but things that you really want why would you be patient but

don't They take time doesn't this level of greatness that we're talking about takes I'm not going to you know look at myself in a mirror or get get to that level of Desire that you're talking about today and okay why not why not why not listen you know this is a problem with human life it's just too long you know the question that you asked me just now you wouldn't be asking me if our lifespan was 35 years old you wouldn't be asking me this question you asked me this Question because our lifespan is you

know 80 years old so therefore we got 50 more years to waste patience compromise they don't have any place in in things that are significant um if if things take time that's that's Nature's business it's not your business right so so if you sit and you wait because you're trying to be patient right my question is how do you know how Long to wait you don't okay so then that means you just be patient your whole life or you can quit might as well you've already quit you're patient that's what I appreciate so much about

you man and I when I got asked that question um you know it was it was very interesting and I knew the Response but again it's very counterintuitive to what you hear about patience in developing people patience in you take golf for example you're not going to go out there when you're first tournament right but you got to trust the process and you got to keep doing what you're doing yeah I don't believe in faith I believe in what I see before me I trust nothing okay Um the idea of well one day it'll come

I okay what if it doesn't come do I get my years back not not yet maybe in the future with AI but yet well well the thing about belief is that you better be right cuz if you're wrong in your beliefs uh the years that you spend are going to be Mighty costly to you they're never coming back so no I don't I patience has a very um has a very it's Not a virtue for you no absolutely not urgency is a virtue now now is a virtue you know if if your house is burning

down you don't not patient are you right you know patience wants it's it's for things that you don't care about the things that you really want you want them now you're urgent you'll do whatever you have to do And as long and and you'll work you'll work all night long but the last thing you'll do is sit at the table and say I'm going to be patient and I'm going to trust the process and have faith that one day it'll come what if it doesn't who are you going to blame because the same person who

told you to be patient and one day it'll come and have faith what's he going to do for you if it doesn't work out what can he Do besides say I'm sorry so un so the lack of understanding you know ignorance has consequences when was the last time someone really impressed you well I can tell you people who I'm inspired by the greatest source of inspiration in my life was Buddha and and I don't and I don't give too sense about what he said couldn't care less I don't want to hear it right it was

it was okay so you know speaking Of you know so speaking this I think recently I put up on Twitter that the middle was the worst place to be and but yet had a lot of people attribute the Buddha to saying the middle yeah okay so let me ask you this so the middle is moderation right right the that's Harmony that's where they say that's where all Harmony is okay so let's once again don't have any faith you're you speak English I speak English we can understand basic Concepts right so so Buddha said that I

will sit under this tree and I will sit on this spot and my bones may break and my skin May wither but I will not rise from this spot until I reach Enlightenment so whose moderation is that yeah I see it okay okay so moderation is nonsense okay uh the middle way once again it's it's a dumbing down for the masses um it's how a person who is Willing to sit in one spot until he dies that's the middle way that's balance uh and and speaking of patience um you know drank his own urine emaciated

you know his body on the verge of death because he wanted to get to Enlighten is that patience nothing about the Buddha is patient or middleway once again I don't care what he says I don't even believe that what He said is what he said unless what the things that he did coincide with that that I that I I I buy because it makes perfect sense because it that's the way things usually work things work by way of urgency and intensity and by way of a fire not by way of a trickle you know it

doesn't work that way so yeah people people like to believe things because they sound nice and they fit into their nice orderly Organized framework that you can teach in class rooms and then ask multiple choice questions about okay that's the world nothing to do with reality because if that was reality then you could basically teach everyone to be great by following my prescription wouldn't that be cool no it wouldn't absolutely question absolutely not there yeah there you know nothing great happens by way of Democracy you know meritocracy is far more um valuable to human beings

you know one of the one of the the greatest advantages that a person with driven DNA has is that he knows that the rest of the human beings are not going to be equally driven yeah why would you why would you remove that inborn Advantage fascinating stuff my man why don't we leave everyone with a an important question that you would ask Them to ask themselves between now and our next conversation is there one question that that for people I'll just leave them with the question that I always ask myself because it is the most

is the driving force behind my life and that is what is it that I do not understand and I don't recommend that anybody ask it because if they do it'll be done mechanically so how the hell do we approach It whatever seeps into your bones without your permission has already seeped into your bones there is nothing intellectually or consciously that needs to be done let it be right and capil I want to start I want to jump right in and I want to start with a broad question that so many of us deal with all

the time it's this notion of being good enough from where you sit right now how come so many people feel that they just don't measure Up in whatever domain personally or professionally I think the the rules and the standards and the um the litmus test and the uh parameters and the criteria that one uses to judge uh one's selfworth uh and that constant comparison of where one is vers versus where one should be and the beliefs and the Notions and the ideologies and the conditioning that exists within um a Household or within a workplace or

within a uh within Arena of of sports um and all of those messages sort of sort of stand as a a big comparison chart uh a big standard against one against which one judges where one is and naturally when you have that uh everyone is going to sort of feel uh that they've come up short um I think selfworth is in manyways uh it's a it's it's sort of a chasing of go Because you know a human being doesn't really know who he is so as a result he has an image and that image is

based upon his experiences and what he has been told and what he has accomplished and what he has failed at and all of those go into that um equation uh of making that self-image and forever and ever and ever and ever that individual spends his entire life trying to improve upon that self image Um towards a quote better self-image uh something that is considered to be more in keeping with what Society wants and what is deemed to be successful and what is deemed to be more healthy and appropriate and correct and wherever you have rules

you have problems um so it is it is it's inevitable that selfworth is going to be an issue because wherever there is any type of image that image can never be enough so if we let me unpack that a Little bit let's start with this whole idea of comparing ones self or one's business with competitors or with other people um what is your view on that do you do you never do that do you never look at yourself Gupta and compare yourself to anybody else no no I I you know I think the the bar

in this world is actually very low the number of individuals in any domain who are searching for the truth Is so minuscule that it it is almost practically non-existent um and in a in a more worldly example you know in I think in the last podcast I think you had asked me something Ong the lines of you know wouldn't it be great if I don't remember the exact thing but if if everyone uh you know was the type that went all out to get something and my answer was no it wouldn't be because That actually

allows for the person who's actually willing to go even a little bit all in to Jump Miles Ahead everybody else have everybody else right so uh so so the bar is actually very low um everyone is basically in the same place and when someone has even a little bit of authenticity even a little bit of sincerity even a little bit of true desire to know the truth about one's domain um completely jettisoning the status quo then he Becomes a superstar so comparison with others you're really comparing against people that you shouldn't be comparing against uh

you know you're you're almost you're almost begging for a regression so I don't think anybody should compare against anybody I think that uh competition is the road to mediocrity but couldn't we all learn something from people who are that minuscule top that you're talking About um I think I I I think that's a very theoretical thing that couldn't we learn something nobody really wants to be forced into learning anything if someone wants to learn something or if someone is moved by something then it was something within them that caused them to either want to learn

or to be moved but I don't think it's of any relevance to say um to to the to the public or to any PE group of people shouldn't you learn something from that I think that's totally irrelevant no nobody wants to learn if they don't want to learn and telling them that they should learn is disingenuous because it will fall upon deaf ears but what if I do want to learn and let me give you a specific example let's take a younger and younger I'm just talking about intent a young person who has become a

CEO or senior executive of a fast growing company is it is it does it serve her or Him well to have experienced mentors who have been in his or her shoes and have built and continually grown companies like he or she is building that's a good question um I think there are definite some tricks of the trade some some practical things that are Beyond books and journals and um schools and real practical level things that one could in fact learn from Someone who's been there there is no doubt um the problem is that if we

look at the entire picture no one will really stay in their own lane in other words if you have quote a mentor which I I no I don't really I don't really subscribe to mentors but imagine that you had a mentor and that Mentor had 12 really really poignant things and they were very small and quick little things that they could teach you that were of incredible Practical value now if you could be absolutely certain that that Mentor would give you those 12 little things that you could Implement and and that might save you some

years and save you some money and save you headache in your business um then that is that's perfectly uh I think helpful and beneficial but what will invariably happen is that once those 12 things or along with those 12 things will be a Culture that will be fed into you by that Mentor you will be you will be subject to his recycled experiences and so he will not stay within the domain of of those 12 little things he will he will invariably go into well this is my philosophy and this is my X Y and

Z and he will never stay Within those 12 things and so therefore in my opinion I think that that mentors bring about I think in many ways more detriment than benefit because they Will not be able to be so perfectly disciplined as to give you only what you need without giving you anything extra so if I'm that person and I have a board of directors and I have a board of advisers each has a role how do you recommend that I get the best out of that group and so if you're if you're semi forced

to uh to be subject to the input of those people then I think the most practical thing would be so as not to Ruffle feathers and just so that you can actually remain in independent while uh appearing to play to be playing the game is to listen to what you want to listen to and take from it what you think will be a benefit to you knowing full well that the entire time the vast majority of what you will be hearing will be recycled information that will not be unique that will be very derivative that'll

be very status quo and if from that as long as you have your tentacles On and your your your filter is on full blast okay it's wide open then there might be one or two things that you learn and take away and put into your pocket and everything else you can ignore but I but I but I don't I but I just don't sub I on the whole I don't subscribe to the idea you know you know my father told me a long time ago when you buy a used car you're buying someone else's problems

and I think mentors are used cars I Think mentors have done whatever work if you have a a superstar and who wants to be your Mentor or who or you have asked them to be your Mentor that Superstar did not get there by way of technique or mentorship okay that Superstar had found things that um by some alchemy worked for them that's why I think it's a waste of time to follow Warren Buffett it's totally it's such a joke no one should ever be following these people these People do you think that they're going to

come out and tell you all of their secrets it is so it is so silly right so these people are tend to be very introspective individuals they tend to be uh individuals who truly want to know what others don't know and they devote their lives or their craft in order to learn it they don't operate by way of mentor ship tips and tricks right so so I totally agree with you on that I totally agree with you on that Yeah so that's why I don't believe in mentors I think that I think that true originality

is only given the proper space and the soil to grow when you are not bound by someone else's experiences and input when you do not know what you aren't supposed to know that's when you can create thing I think I think being naive and innocent is a massive Advantage so if I'm not if I'm not Learning from the Warren buffets of the world and I do totally subscribe to your the key point that you made there is of are they going to really tell you their Trade Secrets maybe a tiny component of it right but

they're not going to get into the details I'm with you on that but if if one of those individuals is somebody who has a direct interest in My Success meaning that person is on my board of directors do you still feel they won't Re help me in a way maybe sharing with me things that they ordinarily wouldn't share with others well you know you are act you are asking a question through a particular lens you are asking but that lens is real because there are people right now who are sting positions like that that that

lens is real from one perspective you are only seeing the quote positive side I hate that word but positive side which is you Were only seeing the side that might provide you benefit you are not seeing the side that might provide you detriment so the only lens through which you're looking at it is I might get them information that might be useful and is that true yes it is and so why would anyone be a against gaining useful information well nobody in the right mind would be so what I am saying is that along with

that useful information often times you'll be handcuffed because You'll be then getting the experiences that that person went through which may not be your experiences that that person may have been living in a different time or that may have person may have had different um interactions with different people um there are so many things you see I I look at things from the standpoint of what the ultimate possibility is and that ultimate possibility I think is far more related to uh innocence and freshness and uh Starting from scratch than it is from following in someone

else's footsteps when was the last time you said to yourself after observing someone that that person is truly Elite mamor Masashi okay inspirational what what caused you I mean and then what what what was revealed a total Confluence of the a total Confluence of DNA I mean here we have an individual you know he who Leaves his house at the age of 13 and he goes into the jungle and he eats berries and drinks water from the river and day and night he studies the mind and he studies the craft of swordsmanship and then he

posts um signs in the local uh in the local sort of provinces and say I challenge the the greatest swordsman in this province and he steps out as this Vagabond individual in front of the guy who he challenges who's Fully Dressed from head to toe in Sort of princely robes right and he comes in this Wild Hair you know unkempt you know hungry and emaciated the individual and never loses a fight I mean total and utter Devotion to craft with a complete and utter disrespect and dismissal for the status quo genius what does it what

what does it take the ordinary person to get to that level of mind I I don't care about Ordinary People what does it take to the Extraordinary person to get to that level mind Ordinary People go nowhere and I think it is completely irrelevant to talk about Ordinary People it is scraping the bottom of the barrel the masses go nowhere it is irrelevant talking about them and this is a society which caters to the lowest common denominator and that is why it creates greater numbers of lowest common denominators when it frankly should be doing the

Opposite and I totally agree with you so what would you call some somebody who is let's assume it's an extraordinary person that you know or work with right what do it take to get to that level of Mind strength and a lot of people ask wouldn't you say a compl immersion to I I don't think that's the question though I think the question would be the opposite I don't think it's about what does it take for this person to get there I think the real question Is the people who have the DNA to already be

close to that who are sensitive to that who are sympathetic to that how do those people not become ruined by a mediocre culture and society which will drag them down that is the question it isn't the opposite and what's it take permission that we each give Ourselves no that the individual who lives on the fringes of society who is brilliant in his domain who has never really fit in who has always felt like this world was not really his home who does not quite mingle in society who has no interest in socialization who is completely

devoted to his craft and yet at every turn is being told that he needs to be more sort Of moderate in his views that person is searching for permission that precisely the way in which he is as wild as he is is precisely where he should be and that individual me to be given the permission that it is not only okay but it but your way of being should actually be celebrated and do not allow yourself to succumb to the status quo of this filth that we call Society so is that a life of constant

experimentation is that all you do every day just that every day there's an experiment your your your experimenting in a fashion to get closer to that mental depth and and that mental framework that you're describing I would say that every single day I am in a journey to completely divorce myself from any inputs from my mind and when when that inner critic Never shuts up what type of conversations are going on in your mind when when that continuous when that's on repeat that hey you're not good enough or you're not going to get to this

level or you ought to do what this other person's doing do you ever have those no those things don't come up anymore um the it the content of what the mind says is largely irrelevant my point is just to not have it talk at all And and what's your advice to dealing with setbacks when somebody starts to live their life like that right and they get a crisis comes up and they have a real hard time in handling it or she has a real hard time in handling it what advice do you have for them

in that hard hour you know I don't think it's about advice I think that the reason that uh failure poses problems is because the viewpoint from which we view the game is fundamentally flawed so I Don't think it's like coming in and um on the back end and trying to pick up the pieces because if you do that I mean the pieces are going to fall apart again so you're only you're only putting the pieces together with Scotch tape so that's irrelevant so the real question becomes not well what advice do you have to um

help someone get through it you it doesn't matter if they get through it because if they get through this then there's going to be another assault Coming very soon isn't this is not going to be the last assault right so the question is that if you know that an assembly line of assaults are coming then what is it what is the frame what is the understanding what is the lens through which you are viewing the game that is causing you consternation when things do not go uh the way in which you hope that they should

and for you what does that what does that look Like you you are too interested in answers um what do you mean what does it look like like I you mean you've had some challenges and I assume recently you've had some things turn out not the way you wanted them H how do you how have you dealt with them it's not it's not really about answers as are just people want to know well I don't think it's about how do I deal with them I think I think it's about um it is yet another Example

it is another um sort of you know notch in the wall so to speak uh of just how unsatisfying life really is um life and the journey of a worldly SL domestic existence um if that is the the lens through which life is lived uh there is a constant struggle in order to achieve a sense of satisfaction and and so that compels one to chase pleasurable experiences or chase success or chase You know various forms of feathers in the cap in order to give oneself a greater self-image going back to what you asked earlier or

selfworth uh in hopes of arriving at some form of s satisfaction um but that never lasts so I think the the more setbacks and quote failures and uh and dramas and conflicts you know they they just for the person who is looking at them as such will you know just sort of Underscore um that you know it it it drills home the point that Buddha was right life indeed is suffering there's no question about that and that is not in any way spiritual mystical religious or theoretical but does that mean when you say life is

suffering I get where that's coming from from and I also get that there are challenges that we're all going to deal with every day but if life's that miserable what the hell do We celebrate I don't know why anyone celebrates anything I celebrate nothing I truly don't um if something good happens I don't celebrate it you know should be about should be there should be about three people listening to this podcast all right because everyone else is is going to consider these to be um dark and negative and nihilistic and defeatist and um I I

have Noely radical reaching those absolutely okay so so even the question that you asked I mean I I was going to interject but allow you to finish the question you know you said well you know even though that we know life is suffering I know that a butt is coming all right you know there there is it there is only suffering and there is only there is only misery there really is no and and the reason that is is because nothing Li nothing Li if if you were a person who Was in love with uh

cars right and every day I brought you a new sports car but then every other day I took it away you would not look at that as a positive experience totally get it sure okay and that is exactly how life is so I don't sugarcoat things okay I say things the way they are I have no interest in making anyone happy or sad so when life is suffering does that mean that you go and sit in the room and Cry all day long you can but the only reason that it won't benefit you is because

even when you stop crying it'll still be suffering so there's no point right so I think it is the Stark understanding that no matter what you do in this world Mo whether you raise children whether you build a$ 20 billion company whether you become a famous professional athlete at the end of the day every human being ends up in the same place They end up alone in their house with the lights dimmed wondering when the satisfaction is going to arrive and it doesn't matter how big the bank account is fundamentally everyone reverts to the foundation

of what comes next because none of these things last and you do not need to believe a single word that I say I don't even subscribe to belief you just have to Open your eyes and look and I totally get where you're coming from and at the same time we're talking to an audience who are building and growing companies so in the hallway of these companies how can a message like that be inspirational to people who every day I go in this company or in these open these doors as a leader to want to inspire

a group of people to do great things yes um that's a very very good Question so what I will say is that there is a great benefit in seeing the truth but if the truth is seen for the benefit then it becomes an ulterior motive and it doesn't get anyone anywhere but there just so happens to be an organic benefit of seeing the truth and if someone realizes for instance that no matter what someone does in their life they will never arrive at a place of Satisfaction that will last then what will happen is that

they will become free and the reason they'll become free is that they will not TCH any sense of hope or anticipation of happiness or selfworth to what they are doing they will be free to create and to do whatever they wish to do completely Unbound by the hope of Success or the fear of failure now this is not why I am saying that one should recognize that life is suffering and that there is no satisfaction and that and that seeking the truth um is the only way I am not saying that to do those things

in order to provide in order to come at this benefit I am saying that those things are all true in their own right it just so happens that seeing those truths Organically provides one the benefit of Freedom which ironically is precisely what everyone is seeking to begin with so when you're a leader and you've got a group of people who are struggling to make investors happy you know what let's use an actual example over the last couple of days Apple has been bombarded by negative press their stock has taken a hit every article you're reading

is about what went wrong you Know what did their CEO Tim Cook miss or what are they misleading the world from if you're sitting in that boardroom right now seeing that your stock took over a 40% hit over the last 3 or four months how are you dealing with it what are you saying to the other leaders sitting across from you to say hey this is [ __ ] that we got to deal with and here are some things we're going to do to move Beyond it no I'm not I'm not interested in Putting out

fires um listen you know you can't do all the detrimental things and then on the other side say well give me a tip to get out of this mud tiit and things don't work that way okay so the truth is what not asking you for a tip I'm tell tell me what that conversation's like in that room okay well first of all the conversation is who am I dealing with are these individuals who truly are looking for tips and for a lifeline and If they are assum they not let's assume they're not okay so if

they're not so if they're not what I'll say is that the reason that you're okay so whether a stock goes up and down those things are part of business okay so that is the real question your problem isn't that the stock is going down that isn't your problem you're in problem your problem your immediate most acute problem is the negative emotional impact that is having upon you Absol that's your issue because Because one thing I will promise you that if that stock plummeted and you were unaffected you wouldn't you you wouldn't be on fire right

you would do whatever you needed to do to correct whatever issues needed to be correct and you would take action where action need to be taken and that's fine you wouldn't sit at home that's fine but internally you wouldn't be feeling it so the question becomes what is it that is causing you all this emotional turmoil And what's causing you the emotional turmoil is that the lens through which you view this is a faulty lens and the lens through which you view this should not be one of attachment but one of a game because you

didn't view it as a game that is kept at arms length at all times then you became attached to it so naturally you are going to suffer highs and lows and you you're going to be like a tin can who is T that is tied with a rope behind the bumper of a car and Wherever that car goes whatever bump in the road that it feels you're going to feel and that's the natural result of it and I I I that was beautifully said all right that was beautifully said and again I want to assume

that the people in that room are your kind of people they're the ones that want to be superb and they're the ones maybe who were going to say no screw the outside world we're doing our own thing what am I doing to make sure that That constant barrage externally isn't impacting the type of business we're building well it's not about the barrage it's about it's not about it's not about the rain it's the quality of the umbrella so I'm totally ignoring it in terms of I'm I'm ignoring the noise right well that that you're you're

mean when you say ignoring it you may be forcefully ignoring it and gritting your teeth and that would get you anywhere Either so you can't actively ignore something if you if you genuinely are impacted by it especially for a public company yeah I I everything is irrelevant nothing has any significance okay if your company if your company goes up and smoke it goes up and smoke right I am telling you the ultimate business person the ultimate athlete the ultimate individual in any domain is the one who was first and Foremost free that come success or

come failure it is what it is and the person will once again do whatever needs to be done over over here and do whatever needs to be done over here but internally he is unaffected and the reason he is unaffected is because he views it as a game and he knew at the outset that this could this this thing could become this this massive massive You know Beacon for Humanity or it could go up and smoke all right so if I am viewing it as a game what is considered what is considered a win and

what is considered a loss setting goals and and no those are those are your own definitions I mean for some person for some people you know uh why they go into it is a very personal thing for some it's just the you know the expression of you know Their talent for someone else it's you know it's the game of making you know 10 billion for someone else it's the G name of being how big of a company I can create there's no right or wrong so those are completely personal definitions as to why one gets

into it and what one is truly seeking from it but the one thing that I will say is that one's litmus test if it is uh ultimate satisfaction regardless of outcome then that person will not go Astray what does freedom look like I you know I was asked this question so many in in the world are from the PJ tour right there's a question well do you know anybody who you know any tour pro who view views go golf that way my question is always my answer is always the same do you know anybody who's

tried no one how can you expect anyone to look at things from these you know From this otherworldly you know mystical almost um antisocial uh lenses when the only thing that the person has ever been taught or been exposed to um or that has been basically shoved into down his throat and into his brain has been the opposite you can't really ask that question why would day if all that you've taught someone is X and wherever that person goes he sees posters of X and whatever he listens to He hears X and whoever he talks

to he is told X how can you ask the question which is well how many people do you know who think why why would they think why they would only think why if there was another option right if if if if they had other options no one has given another option nothing else exists but X nothing else exists but prescriptions nothing else exists but societal tenants and and you know fabricated rules and all of all of This silliness it's all that exists so what else are you going to create on a daily basis what are

you going to spawn with that do you think that type of mindset can help fuel a company to that level of greatness I could see the pursuit of one individual like yourself how would that translate to if capil Gupta was building a company that has thousands of people how do I infect an organization with a message like that and a way of living Like that by being uncompromising human beings will take in if if you give a human being an inch he will take a mile and if you if you structure things in an airtight

fashion then you will tend to attract those who are moved by that philosophy but the moment you compromise the moment you crack open the door we're finished and compromise on what compromise on on your Vision compromise on what you believe to be Purity and if if it if it were you what how would you articulate your vision to that the thousands of people who work for you whatever my the ultimate Freedom whatever well I mean that would be related to I mean what do you mean in in the making of a company yeah let's say

you're building a company okay so if I was making the Company then I would figure out why it is that I'm making the company in the first place what does satisfaction look like to me right what what are my non-negotiables so so those are the those you know would be my viewpoints those would be the the lenses you know through which I would I would view things and then once I had my un those that were the things that were non-negotiable to me um then whoever would be hired Whoever would I would be surrounded by

would be individuals who were airtight in those non-negotiables I wouldn't be interested in convincing anybody so you become because you when you have air type Vision you cannot allow your mind to be exposed to views that are contrary and inferior to your vision because those things will sabotage you that's why on Twitter I mute and block people all the time because it it isn't a form of Retaliation it is that I can't have that in my space everything the eyes see and everything that my mind is exposed to must be chosen it must be it

must be precise it must be in keeping with the vision because the one thing that I am completely and utterly cognizant and acutely aware of is the danger of culture the danger of environment do you know the number of Individuals who in this world who were born to be great but they were almost killed in the womb by this society and they will never even know that that that they were supposed to be great this is the power of environment and culture the greatest individual will sh the world he will live as an isolationist he

will be a Hermit because he cannot afford Association I I I I I I'm totally in agreement with you I'm totally in agreement with you there and I I can see how we're all infected by the energy of others but you you know that I'm going to ask this question what are your non-negotiables in what in life in your life right now what are your non-negotiables uh arriving at complete and total freedom from the Mind and does that dictate every interaction you have from a behavioral from a societal perspective um uh no ingested substances of

any kind ever ever in my life I've never had I've never had a drop of alcohol in my life I've never taken a uh a drug in my life I've never spoked in my life I you know obviously I've taken Tylenol and you know cough medicine and those kind of Things um and some antibiotics but um th those you know I live a very I live a very hermetic existence I don't I mean I go out but quietly all right two two more things for you I really love this idea of approaching a business with

this notion of non-negotiables we've heard it before but I don't think within this context there's a lot of companies that are Built on solving big problems right first person that comes to mind that's solving big problems is Elon Musk if you're standing in those shoes and you're really I want to take people to the moon I want to build an electric car that's going to change the entire face of an industry how do you think about these problems you know I I wonder I don't I mean perhaps you know you Ian Elon Musk has uh

you know very rare DNA so a Person who has rare DNA in one domain you know probably is already doing some of these things right he may already be viewing things from from from these lenses um I wouldn't be surprised um but but I think Elon Musk is is a perfect example of an individual who I would say needs to be um very cognizant of the fact that you know because he is an outlier with regard to levels of success and uh uh you know you know being very original and Imaginative and not uh you

know not placing himself and combining himself to societal limits um that he needs to be very cognizant of the fact that this Society is a is a is a you know a poisonous swarm that through various different uh Avenues could serve to derail his gargantuan efforts so I think it's largely those types of individual I think it's largely about protecting oneself and to keeping oneself pure to one's Visions because um through through All through you know if the window is cracked open you know that poisonous gas is coming through the window right so I would

say that the maintenance of the purity of one's Vision without the slightest form of compromise is what must be kept intact and how do you maintain a level of com when you're dealing with such Monumental problems what are you doing to make sure that you don't let doubt overshadow the level of confidence you need to keep Pursuing these audacious goals well doubt often times comes from society so I think that's perfectly in line with what but we internalize it most of us at least most of most of us humans internalize it well that's because most

humans value Society so if you value someone or something then you're going to lend an ear to it if you if you think that something is uh is baseless or that a person that whenever that person speaks The person speaks you know nonsense and uh is you know then you would not listen to that person so it's because people place value upon society that they allow it in that's why it's it's of no in it it's it's irrelevant to tell someone well don't listen to people don't don't let them you know don't let the world

you know uh you know bring you down that can't happen Unless that person has no respect for the world and it's hard as hell to think like that right like I totally concur with your thinking that there is tremendous com tremendous comfort in being mediocre right or whatever however you want to Def find it being average or you know being part of the St there's tremendous comfort in that it takes real responsibility for somebody to accept that being great is a Responsibility and there are very few people who want to go there I don't think

being great a responsibility he don't why is it a responsibility no why is being greater who who are you being responsible to yourself you don't owe yourself anything if you're great that's because you have it's because you have no choice it's not a it's not you know I have a responsibility to do this and that I have responsibility to myself no It's you do it because you have no choice that's just where all of your inclinations and your energy goes it didn't ever ask your opinion why wouldn't I want to be great well why wouldn't

someone want a billion dollars you know delivered in uh 10 silver suitcases lined up in a horizontal Fashion on their doorstep tomorrow line it up why would they well of course they would okay well things don't but but but want is irrelevant Right yeah one is irrelevant it's the pursuit or whatever however you want to Define it well yeah so so what I'll say is you know you know I don't know why I turned out the way I turned out okay I don't know why um the one thing I'll tell you to answer your question

me yeah yes it is difficult for someone to think like this and but the reason it's difficult is because they would be doing it in order to make in a way to make themselves think like this right I mean I never tried to make myself think like this no one ever told me I never followed anybody I wasn't mentored into it right I've always hated Society right so so I think was there a point for you when you knew what however you want to frame it right that you were just cut out of a Different

Cloth and you were just going to follow a different path was there a something that triggered that for you no I you know like if I if I go back and examine Um often times it isn't what you do it's what you find yourself doing and so if I was to go back back and examine I've always been a loner I'm I'm an only child right I've always done things alone I've you know I've always got out to eat alone and whenever I would go out to eat I you know I never had any interest

in going with other people um it I've always been you know a writer I've I've never been interested in the social scene I've I've always asked Questions that were felt that were thought of as uh you know crazy and wild and uh you know have just totally different right so I mean there was no event there was no event it was it's just sort of always been that way and you and you learn that as you become an adult and you look backwards and you find that the seeds of being this way were swn at

a very young age and they weren't swn by anybody they were just DNA um so that's why I think a lot of These things about self-improvement and self-development are really dising genous because you can't really make yourself what you're not right so how you know this I think it's I think you you have to work from a place where you genuinely are um and and if something really really resonates with you then you naturally will begin to move in that direction without actually making a choice because the thing resonated with You so much well I

can I can speak for people who are listening and and tell you that there is a whole lot of us who want to achieve that level of freedom from our minds and that's whether you call it a prescription or not for for the majority of the people who I've interacted with who listen to these podcasts or our conversations that is the singular issue we want freedom from our minds and every time we listen to you we Get a we get something that help us realize maybe this is what I need to take away or maybe

this is you know this is how I should start to think in order to do that that's a worthy Pursuit well I will have to disagree with you I don't think that people want freedom from their miles I think it's a tasty notion when they're being Tormented and when they're not being tormented they want freedom to watch television they want freedom to follow politics they want freedom to complain about the president they want freedom to go to the local mic Club okay so human beings are are fair weather fans they are they are bandwagon jumpers

they are situational creatures the the number of people who Truly want freedom from their mind I can probably count on one hand who exist you know in maybe you know in the west right yeah okay right so so people want the benefit of things they don't they don't they don't want the totality of things so if I told someone well in order to get freedom from your mind you're going to have to give away the good as well as the bad no no thank you I don't want that I only want to give Away the

back I only want to give away the negative feelings and the sadness and the sorrow and I want to keep the happiness and the joy well Sadness and Sorrow and Joy are two sides of the same coin right so no one wants freedom from the Mind well I do let me go on record on saying that I do maybe I haven't quite grasped the level that you're talking about but that is the singular thing that to me distinguishes you from Everybody else that's out there that that is your genuine objective and if we can all

just get captured 10% of that I'm convinced that we'd all be better off okay so before we sign off I know you don't watch TV you don't pay attention to sports but something interesting happened yesterday that I just want to get your perspective on there's a kicker Who missed a a a relatively short game-winning field goal yesterday for the Bears to knock him out of the playoffs he's a young kid who's had horrible luck and obviously the world of Twitter and the world of of of broadcasters are all over the kid what do you say

to somebody like that I have no interest in making I have no interest in making I have no interest in making him feel better I would say to Him listen do you really want do you really want to arrive at the truth and arrive at the place where you are unaffected by success or failure which by the way will help you AR at your ultimate performances probably more often than anybody else in the NFL and the answer is that's and and if the answer to that is yes then I will say okay well then I

don't care how you feel right now let's scratch everything And look at the lens through which you are viewing the game and you are viewing the game from the lens of self-gratification versus failure right you were and and viewed through that lens you will have failure far far far more often than you will have selfs self-gratification so if that's the game you've already lost you might as well go home you're not going to win that game nobody wins that Game so if if you want the truth then the truth is that arriving at the place

where you are unaffected by success or failure and that you are not interested in self-gratification because you know that along with that self-gratification will bring you 10 times more of sorrow and failure then we can approach we can we can help you approach the game by allowing you to understand what the truth really is so that you can view the Game as a game and that will allow you to be free because it is only the one who has everything that can actually play it is only the one who is full before he arrives that

asks nothing from the game and when a human being has no need he is free and when he is free he becomes Untouchable he becomes alleged and on that note the con the topic of our next we ended our last Conversation with you saying that it is only the ones who have have everything that can actually play because the one who is full before he arrives is the one that asks for nothing from the game and when a human being has no need he is free and when he is free he becomes Untouchable which leads

to this whole idea of being legendary that you continue to talk about unpack that for me a little bit I think everyone looks at uh their Craft and and their Sport and their business and whatever their Pursuit is as a place uh from which to get something um it's sort of a a wishing well of sorts and that that creates a lot of problems because the field the you know the field of play doesn't really have any power to give anybody anything so everyone you know tends to Have in general um a hole that they're

trying to fill and that hole is filled by success or by wins or by money or by status um whatever it may be and that that really creates an enormous problem because then you're beholden to the outcome uh to decide how it is that you feel about yourself so that means that how you feel about yourself and what your state of so-called happiness or Joy or peace whatever it is is always in the Hands of someone else or something else and that's really slavery so one of the things we've talked about in the past is

your ability to let go of the outcome right to have the mindset that to approach any Endeavor with having the outcome being a byproduct of the pursuit it's tough as hell to get to that especially when you got a lot writing on the line whether you're in sports or in business where do You start to get to that level well it's tough to get it's tough to get to the that if you are viewing it as a prescription it's not so tough to get to that if you come to the conclusion that you have no

other choice everything is tough when it's viewed from the standpoint of a prescription uh it's not only tough It's virtually impossible because you're doing it Because of a should and you know if you know you you might be able to give away some secondhand clothing uh by way of a should but you're not going to give away the Family Jewels by way of a should so for you to give away the Family Jewels you must see no other option you're not going to do it because it's good for you or because uh the rule book

says that you should let's not assume it's a Prescription right let's assume but it has to be it has to be though if it's if it's if it's that difficult then it is being pursued from the lens of this is what I should do and this is what I'm supposed to do and this is what I've been told is a good idea because it may benefit me down the road and this is a good habit to get into and those are very cosmetic things those don't have the power to uh allow someone to to give

away the Family Jewels for someone to let go you know this this is all like sports psychology you know you know really just hot air you know you know be in the present and you know give you know um forget about the outcome let go and what what no one seems to understand is that the only reason that you're being told that is because it's an ulterior motive to help you play better so it's all it's all a trick and the mind recognizes that trick so it's just an Ulterior motive it's just it's just an

Avenue to get somewhere it's a means to an end and because it's a means to an end it has no power it isn't done genuinely it isn't done because the person arrived there and and discovered that if I don't do it there is incredible ruin and that ruin is is not something that I've been told about that theoretically may occur in the future I've experienced that ruin I've experienced how my life is Completely in shambles when the outcome of a tournament uh dictates how I look and feel about my life and my profession so everything

has to be genuine I it's you can't come at it through prescriptive means um so so I think that's why it's difficult isn't just difficult it's like I said it's virtually impossible so none of us are immune to the feeling of elation when we've Succeeded at the same time none and none of none of us are immune to the fear of failure right we're not in your headp space yet you know if a business fails I mean unless you're Yoda you probably feel really bad about about it do you want that feeling are you referring

to that feeling when that feeling gets so bad is is that where I have to go in order to be able to get to that level of uh mind share where I don't give a damn about the outcome anymore and with That I am on a path that to that legendary status that you're talking about you no one ever looks at where they are because they're so busy looking at where they should be so no one ever looks to see what are the consequences of the way that I view things what what are the consequences

that I've all not that I will experience but that I've already experienced I mean everyone's in looking at the results of whether the outcome of the game or the business turned out well what about the results of the way in which you've been looking at the game what about those what about the consequences not of the game but what about the consequences of the way that you've been looking at it so so you you know you talk about well if the business fails and the person feels sad well that isn't the first time that They've

felt dejected they've been feeling dejected the entire time it wasn't just when it failed when it's failed they felt the dejection of failure but all along they've been feeling the dejection of fear so why is it that no one looking at that why is no one looking at the fact that why is everyone looking at the dramatic climax why are they not looking and saying but you know for the last 20 years I've lived in fear and Anxiety so that's already happened that isn't something that's going to happen that's that's where the person had been

living so why not look at that outcome and say well why is it that I've been living in fear and anxiety for all these years and then ask that question and then that will take a person to the place where he sees well I've been living in fear and anxiety because the way in which I've been looking at the game is completely Detrimental um to how I feel it's it's not sustainable that is the road of Truth not not you know the the hysteria over how can a person lose its company and still not be

dejected forget that question look at where the person already is now your question would be valid if you said for the last 20 years I've been building a company and I've been joyful and peaceful the entire time and then When the company failed then I became rejected and that was the first time only when it failed I would say fine that's a valid question but that isn't happening everyone's distraught from beginning to end so why not examine the level of distraught that the person's been swimming in for years no one's looking at that I totally

agree with you right and I want to come back to that in a moment But you triggered something in me because one of the great insights that I have learned from you and that you provided me is this idea of access and you brought it up in one of your last podcasts where you talked about hey these people who you consider Elite they don't have a problem with acquiring new knowledge or new skills what gets in the way is accessing those skills so is is that what you're talking about here with the ability to be

able To access that by asking myself that question no I mean that's that's different I mean you don't have to access when you ask yourself the question it's just the nature of the question I mean instead of asking the question why how can I not feel dejected when when the company fails rather than rather than asking that question ask the question why do I feel dejected or ready all along that's the question so as for skill acquisition versus skill access That's a question of performance so when when someone about performing well um the performance community

and the coaches and the sports psychologists and the business coaches and the motivational speakers and whoever it is they're all talking they're all singing the same tune they're all will you they're all talking from the standpoint of will you have to go back and work on your Technique and you have to work harder and you have to improve your Skill and well if that okay let's let's once again look at the evidence if that was the case then they would never play well right if it was a question of skill acquisition then they wouldn't have

one great game and then three bad games where where would the great game come from if if the skill wasn't there if it hadn't been acquired where the great you shouldn't have any great G but that isn't the case they'll have great games and They'll have a bunch of lousy games so so that means so according to that logic when the person had the great games the skill was there and then when they had lousy games the skill disappeared and now they have to go back and learn the technique all over again or relearn something

wow you relearn I mean do you relearn Ty your shoes if you've been doing something for 25 years you have to relearn It when just last week you performed fantastic so so between last Wednesday and today you lost the skill like you were walking down the street and just it just it just drifted out well don't you believe do you believe in complacency that at some point success becomes more of a curse that's a different question I'm talking about where did that skill go between last Wednesday and and today I'm sure it's still there right

it's a Matter it's it's a matter of me recalling it or accessing it like you're talking about right that's my point so the skill is still there it hasn't gone anywhere so if the skill is still there why is everyone working on acquiring the skill again or acquiring more skill why is that's the question that is being asked that doesn't make any sense to me so what's the question that you're asking why is it that I'm not able to Access it and what often gets in the way I know it's personal Tech everything but technique

you know so so let's you know let's uh if the if the bleeding's in the head you know we'll get to what part of the head the bleeding's in but can we first move away from the leg sure right so if everyone's already the if everyone's already going back to the coach or to the you know to the business Guru or whatever it is what do I have to do and what's my fstep plan business Guru right the business Guru has all the answers well the business Guru has all the prescriptions and we all fall

for it it sells books yeah well well not only fall people ask for it so so no one really gets anywhere this is all just a scam everything in everything in this Society is a Scam from the government to the FDA to sports coaching to uh business coaching it's it's all a force it's there's nothing real here it's just swirling money water because no one and it had nothing to do with intelligence there's nothing to do with people not being smart enough there's nothing nothing whatsoever to do with that it's no one's interested in asking

the the effective questions the real questions the questions that actually get some on Somewh because everyone's interested in working on stuff all the time everyone's interested in practice and everyone's interested in uh you know following sort of the guidelines of what to do and what you should do and everyone's got a you know technical instructor and everything it's it's it's sheep following sheep so help me drill down a little bit then help me drill a little bit deeper From that Purity aspect that you talk about um just in general what is it that we can

start to do to try to get closer to getting away from these prescriptions and focusing on the real truth that will enable us to be more successful to achieve Greater Heights to be happier whatever it is that you will ultimately Define as legendary um I think I don't think it has everything to do with what you need To do because that will be another prescription I think it has everything to do with the idea that to ask yourself if you're really serious and to give yourself an honest answer and it's a very honest answer to

say that I'm not serious um the truth is very very few people are serious we started off with three and then we like last time we said five so there's five five people on on the Planet now and I hope I'm one of them um okay so for those five people um if they're really serious then I'll say okay uh it just please don't believe anything that I say um because I don't believe anybody so I'm don't ask anyone to believe me but capil we do believe you but that's the that's the truth but but

just look at your own life look at your own life I'll tell you to the to the five people wherever they are In the world if they're listening look at your own life and um examine honestly and innocently all the prescription that you followed in you know for purposes of your life and well-being and your business and your profession whatever it may be and uh see where it's gotten you see if it's got see if it has gotten you to an arrival see if it has gotten you to a permanent state in which there are

no more Questions see if it has gotten you to a holy gra see if it has gotten you to a place where you don't need anymore how to examine for yourself that's my honest answer examine for yourself I'm going to answer for do that if you don't do that then you then you won't then you won't move move genuinely in away from prescription let let me answer for the five people starting with myself no of course it hasn't gotten me to where the Holy Grail Or a level or a state of permanence no of course

that's why okay I am intrigued and Incredibly appreciative of the perspective that you bring to the table and so if that's the case and it hasn't gotten you where you would like it to get you then you will naturally fundamentally and organically move away from prescriptions not because I say so but because you have found for yourself that it hasn't gotten you anywhere and as you move away from prescriptions what Will begin to happen is that your questions will begin to change they will fundamentally change because now you're not looking through the lens of a

how-to anymore because you have realized not that you shouldn't but you but because you have realized that looking through that lens of how to doesn't work and so when someone's questions begin to change then the people or the Situations um that may provide the direction for that person also begin to change it's like a Rubik's Cube you change one face and all the faes change what is the context of the questions that you started to ask yourself when you started to sense that shift you know my questions are more much more along the lines of

what is the source of the uh of the matter what is the one thing that fixes 12 as opposed to fixing 12 things right um what is the most fundamental truth upon which all these problems exist that and if that fundamental truth was realized and everything that was resting upon it would fall away well is that it's never in in the realm of the how to yeah well I I think we all get that now we definitely all get that but when you look at these Elite people or when you look at these high Achievers

um the World looks and starts to say that hey what distinguishes these indiv indviduals from others is that it starts with Talent however I'm continuing to be convinced that really it isn't Talent it's upstairs like you say it's their mind or their mindset one is that true do you see that as the fundamental thing that that distinguishes these super Elites that you're talking about from the rest of the world does it start with Their mind no it starts with Talent so it is so so you do agree then with that well but what distinguish well

my agreement only goes so far of course the departure is coming very very soon uh so um if but if you look at if you if you look at within a population of Elites like within a Professional uh you know basketball Arena or within you know the world of professional sports so there everyone's very very talented okay and so they're what separates one from the the the super Elite from the other Elites that's mind but what separates the whole because your question was what is the separates the elite from the rest of the people let's

count y but with within that domain it's the mind got it so so Take me to that space then what is the mind like for those that are in that ultimately in that legendary state that you're going to talk about is it no mind yeah well I would say it's DNA first and foremost I think some people are just their sensibilities are different the things that they um the things that attract them are different the things that they gravitate towards are different the places that they want to go um in terms Of their vision for

their career is different um the way that they'll do even things outside of their profession will be different now I and I and I think it's I think it's a mistake to start looking at these people and following their habits no I think that's just I'm so against all that stuff you know the seven habits of Effective People that's just it's just priv well it's it's always the number seven for whatever reason it's always Seven something yeah was always you know so it and no one should like try to be that right because I think

there's Talent within everybody um but you know why is there one who's super Elite because his DNA is different but if I don't have that DNA do I not have a chance to get to that level that you're talking about what I'll say is that if you have If you ask that question that if if a person wants to ask that question that I don't have that DNA but I really want to get the very fact of asking that question implies that he has some semblance of that DNA because the people who truly don't have

that DNA are too oblivious to even know that they don't have it because Mo like I don't even know what this DNA that you're talking about is well DNA like to be a legend I want To be the greatest ever right I want to be in the history books I want to um you know where everyone wherever everyone is in my craft I don't want anyone near me right I don't want to you know I want to walk my own path I don't follow any rules I don't listen to stupid coaches right I don't need

all this instruction right like they do everything Against the Grain they they're they are they are um they're Heretics right they're Revolutionaries they're that type of DNA do do they not have goals I mean don't don't you consider so isn't that like I want to be the best in my craft or I want to be you know the greatest who or or you know have more gold medal than anybody I mean do you consider that a goal cuz I know you're not fond of goals yeah I mean you could retrofit something and then say well

is it can you consider that a goal I mean you know By goals I mean I don't you know by this time I want to accomplish this and by this time I want to accomplish that that's sort of what I mean I mean um but when someone wants to be a legend I don't less less of a goal that's just who the person believes himself to be MH that's what he feels like he was put on this Earth to be like it's almost his Birthright so I mean so I don't like I said you can

you can turn any English word into anything okay but I'm talking About it the most colloquial use of the word gold um that's what I was talking about so one when one of those people comes to you to be coach adviser whatever you want to call it and you agree to work with them what's the first question you're going to ask I have no idea what the first question is I I never know what I'm going to ask anybody I have no idea because I it's not a script I don't I don't know Anything I

I mean just whatever comes out comes out but what do you want to know you know I will I will know who they are by the questions they ask I will know who they are by um if it's a face to-face meeting mhm how how still and how and with with what sort of look they look at me when I speak you you will pick up on all these Cues sure absolutely that's when you know that if someone is truly serious um or this is not for them were there some interesting questions that you got

asked recently that uh distinguish some people who were Ser I never remember never remember anything I don't I don't know I I don't know I just I mean I those the I mean I think it's I Think it's far more beneficial if you listen to sort of the flavor of what I'm saying as opposed to looking the you know the the detail of you know the example so what do you mean when you say you'll find your own example so so talk to me a little bit about what you mean when you say performance is

never a goal it's always a byproduct or a side effect yeah if your goal is I want to play better or I want to perform better that's an ulterior motive but that's a Natural goal that most of us pursue well but that that that implies that very that that very tenant implies that I should be doing something some form of a doing that'll improve my performance and that never gets anyone to the top sure it might improve your performance and even then but even if it improves you today it'll probably you know it'll be less

Improvement tomorrow because the mind will figure out an antidote to whatever your new trick Is so that's why every trick has a shelf life that's why every red pill is followed by a blue pill true absolutely okay so it isn't about how can I perform better it is about what are the problems and what are the things that I have not realized that have hampered my performance that's a fundamentally different question M because one is tell me what to do give me some five-step Plan or some stupid hack that I could you know utilize to

get you know 5% better and the other one is the other one has the potential of blowing the doors open by way of understanding so are you always competing against yourself then is this always a commitment I compete no no no I don't compete I'm just constantly looking for the truth I'm constantly looking that you know is the thing that I've already found is that truly rock Bottom or is there another level more fundamental than that so what do you say then when what do you mean when you say competitions for those who've not mastered

and they're left with nothing but to compete what is that what is that well well the person who Masters I mean if if you master darts and you can hit the bullseye every time why would you compete no one there would you would Have no competition so you show up to a tournament you show up to the Olympics and you're not competing you're just going to go do your thing well why would you I mean from the outside someone could say oh look he there's one person and there's 10 others they are competing I guess

you could say that but but if you hit the bullseye every single time you you don't have any Competition so internally competition competition is for the people who have not learned how to hit the bullseye every time and they're getting together to compete to see who can get closer so competition is like fighting over a half e sandwich competition is fundamentally for non-ms so what do what do Masters do Master's Master they don't look to beat anybody They don't look to better anybody and it isn't because that's not nice you know never go down that

road either right I about nice and good and improper and everyone gets a you know a trophy for playing and all that silliness you know it it's in my view anything can be mastered there is a way to own it and because that's my view that will naturally be my Pursuit if my view was that competition is the way then naturally my Pursuit Would be to go in practice and out practice the other in hopes that I could get 2% better than him MH so whatever your view is that's what your Pursuit will be and

that's why your view and the your the lens through which you see see things has real consequences so do you see the whole pursuit of chasing success in whatever shape or form a real problem for people who are Chasing it yeah do we get just handcuffed by that yeah because what they're chasing is really the fringe benefits of success they're chasing how to better another and ironically bettering another means that you are limited by the other person because you will only do just enough to inch past him and once you have inched past him you'll

stop so you'll never know how good you could have Been so competition breathe mediocrity yeah I I live in that space I believe I really and and over the last year or so you have convinced me of that so I'm I'm there with you at the same time I also realize that as human beings to get to that state that you're describing that the five people really really want to get a glimpse at there has to be an element of fear of letting go everything that I've done in the past that at least Gave me

a taste of what success is like in order for me to try to pursue um you know maybe a more appropriate or permanent way to live uh in this state that you're talking about fear is real and it's hard to get rid of for a lot of people right and I assume that the people who are at the level that you're describing maybe are not immune to it but deal with it differently No I I I don't think fear is a problem I think what matters is what you're afraid of that's the problem see if

you're afraid of not becoming a success that's a problem if you're afraid of not learning the truth that's not a problem that's a very good problem to have because whatever you're afraid of that's what you're going to make sure doesn't fet so if you're if you're afraid of losing and if you're afraid of not Becoming a success then you'll go down the path of hard work and struggle if you're afraid of not learning the absolute truth and that's what you're truly afraid of that how good you could have been then you'll go down the path

of Mastery so the nature of your fear has consequences so do you measure progress how do you measure progress or do you no I don't measure progress I just Measure what did you get to where you want to go or not well in business if we've got these super ambitious goals we may not ever get there but we get closer is that thumbs up or thumbs down about the goal I don't think it's about the goal I think it's who you believe yourself to be and what you believe your destiny is what you believe to

be your Birthright who you who you feel that you were put on this Earth to Be I think it's about go so you have to talk of gold all these committees because committees are dribble whenever you have more than one person in any situation it's going to be dribble that's why last time when you were asking me about boards and stuff they don't know anything they don't know anything they they don't they they they may know what they want but there's no there there isn't a single group in the world that has Wisdom even if

you go to a Buddhist Monastery that group doesn't have wisdom there might be one guy and it probably isn't even the head guy who has wisdom groups are a dumbing down phenomenon groups are a regressive a regression to the mean phenomenon there's no Effectiveness well I mean the only Effectiveness coming out of a group is you know if you want a big if you want to lift a big heavy log or tree or something you know there's power In numbers in that sense of muscle power that's fine whereas one person couldn't do it alone that's

that's that I understand that's fine but anything that's on any sort of intellectual level or anything that's non- mechanical um groups will always be filled with mediocre people but you can't because if there's if there's if there's one brilliant person in that in that group he will be eaten the Alive by the mediocre Yeah yeah you're you're dead on on that but how the hell do you build a great business and impactful business or build a great sports team without having a group that's working together in some way shape or form well yeah you know

I you know the uh I think the team is really a false construct um there's no team from the outside it looks like a team But each person within that team is a perfect individual who is the best at his particular thing so the group in the team that's only an added societal label you know the the guitar player isn't helping the the piano player play the piano while he's doing guitar with his left hand right and it's only when one is purely individualistic and sticks to the Perfection of his own Craft that a symphony

has created if everyone's meddling in everyone else's business then it would be a disaster so is that so yeah it's it's parallel play it isn't really a PO so does that then then the first thing that that comes to mind is Bill bellich and his approach to say just do your job if you just do your job the cumulative effect of everybody doing their job we're going to Win yeah that makes sense to me yeah that makes sense to me and and you know and here's the real consequence of of of this team myth is

that you know in Youth Sports you'll have someone who's really good at a particular position but he'll be told that he needs to play play the different positions as well mhm you know that's stupid you know this is you know you're just being coached by people who fundamentally don't understand why if your talent is in this Position for whatever reason it happens to be right that's the talent that you've been given then that person should be taught to maximize that 500% but that isn't but see that's not fair that's not considered Fair everyone should get

a chance to play in that and everyone should get a participation trophy right and it's it's a stupidity right if you if you are if you are great at Center why would you play Defense you shouldn't sure at all ever you shouldn't now if you're no if you're no good at Center then it makes sense to switch around to find out maybe you're you're an amazing defenseman that makes sense but see this see ignorance has consequences if you believe in this team myth then naturally you will do silly stupid things like take people away from

Their natural talents so that they get worse at what they're really good at in order to make them a little bit more mediocre at what they shouldn't be doing those are the natural result of believing in things that fundamentally are not true ignorance has consequences real world consequences this ruins people's lives and do you feel leaders building and growing companies can follow the same approach of hey do your job and That mentality and build a great business yeah but I would think that the leader would have to would have to first first um ingrain that

within himself because in general leaders tend to be too interested in what others think of him yeah true and that's a big hole that that leader needs to fill before he speaks a single word to anybody else because as long as he is influenced by what others Say as long as he has insecurity about how he may be viewed then he will not be anywhere near his in near his his ultimate with regard to the uh the performance that he can put forth but do you feel that we could be totally immune as in in

leadership positions to what others think of us of course yeah they're not a whole lot of but not if you live but but not if you Live in this world of prescriptions and and you think that and you think if you have to follow 18,000 rules no the answer to your question is no then it's impossible okay if you're worried about what the Wall Street Journal is going to write about you and you're worried about what this you know you know social group is going to say about you and you're worried about being nice and

kind over here and not step on anybody's toes over here and you know if you if you're going To follow all those rules and I tell you you might just quit your job and go sit home because you'll be more respectable doing that because you're just you're you're you're a little man in a big chair who's just sitting in some stupid post and who is not anywhere near exercising his full capabilities and his full talents and so what's the use well sometimes if the right Wall Street Journal writes something that's detrimental or negative about me

or my Company or about me in particular I mean that could have some negative consequences so at some point that's got to be in the back of my mind well if if if you sell out on your talent and doing what you believe that your instincts tell you is the pure and appropriate way to go and you don't do that because you're afraid of what the Wall Street Journal Might say then you're an insult to your talent and I can guarantee you one thing that but by by making that concession you will you will have

sold out on something that might have led to something really big at the end of the day you got to be able to face yourself in the mirror how many journals are you going to run from how many reporters are you going You going to hide from or we could just say it's fake news right whatever the hell they write we could just say it's fake news um you know the the the greatest source of fake news is what's going on in the leader's head of course yeah well yeah I mean that that's uh that's

probably the subject of of everything else that we're talking about here but let me just ask you a couple more things and we'll kind of uh pause this one when you're talking About I want to just stick with this leaders in a moment um I was fascinated by your the depth of discussion that you had about purity and and the importance of coming from a place that's pure do you just when you're around others or with yourself do you is that a feeling that you get of your level of Purity about whatever it is that

you're thinking or or contemplating and do you see it in others I mean if someone if if another Person is pure about what they're doing um yes you can see that and Do You Feel It In Yourself when you're when you're asking yourself the type of reflective questions that you're asking yourself and really deep questions do you just know that hey that this is really the essence of who I am yeah I would I never do a solo podcast until I'm ready to speak just purely regardless of who may like it or who may not

um the the arbitrator the Thing that I must be true to are are my my deepest in in of Purity without a single without a single drop of an attempt to put on a show or to uh be an entertainment or um you know to to play to any crowd that that is simply unacceptable to me one of the things that also resonates with me and certainly the the for other people and and the people who at least listen to these Conversation uh they know that you are an independent thinker and you are definitely contrarian

but do you ever run ideas by other people like if you feel like you need to get someone else's perspective on something anything how do you pick the people in your inner circle to have discussions like that with yeah that's a good question um absolutely if if there's a topic or if there's something that I don't know then I will ask a per I will you know research an individual and find out what sort of things he's written and then give him a call or write him something or whatever it is and but but that's

just the first stage um I will know whether he's real or not by how he responds I I just because I'm asking him doesn't mean that my filter isn't on full blast because the the the truth is that the chances that I've stumbled upon Someone who is truly truly speaking the truth is one in a million right so I already know going in I I really really am looking forward to the possibility that this might be the guy um but I kind of already know that the chances are fairly remote that it is going to

be but if he speaks truth I'll know it immediately even though I may know nothing about the topic it isn't topic specific what is it you just know when Someone it's just you just know when someone's speaking the truth you just you you just know it you can you know it's it's you know you can sense fear you can sense someone holding back not wanting to go against the the the status quo you can sense someone uh intentionally going against the status quo uh for purposes just to show off you can sense uh where someone

is has really really looked into the matter uh outside Of just having read the material that's published about the matter but looked into it himself and I mean so there's there's a thousand little things that that you can that that we as human beings can sense that someone speaking the truth and do you find that experts real experts really don't flaunt themselves right they're not out there talking about or profiling themselves as experts I mean that that seems to be a Red FL everybody's an expert nowadays right right that's true yeah yeah most experts aren't

really experts um people are experts based upon what they've read and the more that they have read about something they brand themselves as an expert because they have read all the things that they've read first of all a lot of time weren't written by them and even people who were they were written by they've derived it from other sources themselves so Everything's nepotism right like true originality is extraordinarily rare and and I think part of the reason is and and it isn't necessarily even that there aren't truly original humans because there definitely are but what

happens is that but the true original humans also have to have the DNA to not be afraid of what the world thinks of them and so that's a that's sort of a you know a sort of a two-pronged attack that's required because if a person Doesn't have the DNA to say what they want to say and without being uh afraid of what the world you know might shoot them down then they'll they will regress the mean or they'll just stay quiet I mean that's obviously what happened to most of the world right I mean you

know Freedom looks very different to somebody who's has real expertise in something than somebody who just claims to be an expert right the former never talks about It I don't know I don't think there's I don't think there you never talk about being you never talk about you know the depth of knowledge or the depth of expertise or you know that I you never talk about that yeah I mean yeah I mean I don't because I I don't I don't know there really isn't that strong desire in me to really impress anybody you know maybe

that's why but whatever I want to say I I say It and do you consider that for others who feel that way is that have they gone away from that insecurity of gaining others approval and other the opinion of others and so forth have they gone away from from that and are really more focused on you know the direction that somebody like you's heading is that that is that that total fre freedom of the mind that that you had described a couple of times I think there's definitely freedom In genuinely not being interested in what

others think of you I think that's a massive Milestone to reach in any human being's life because um because that sort of imprisonment ISX really absolutely I mean that that really ruins your life um because you do everything in order to get but but but even I mean no one really does that for other people for the people who are afraid of what Others think they're not doing it for the other people it's it's that they are afraid of eming what the others may think of them MH and that's a real feeling I mean that's

real yeah I mean it's not real it's fabricated but it's believed to be real but we feel it at least that you know that that not with the exclusion of the five people we feel it yes no yes yes no Question now the now the big question is or you know maybe we leave everybody with how do we once we have that feeling what the hell do we do to try to gain that sense of Freedom that you know that you describe um that only becomes possible when the toxicity that one feels in being in

that position is greater than the toxicity one feels of leaving it because because when you're in that position uh the the the Desire for acceptance and validation is greater than the aversion of the toxicity that that situation create it's Euphoria for a lot of people the great majority of people so the greatest desire always win so when the desire for validation is greater than the feeling of toxicity for being dependent upon others Approval then it's impossible to leave that space we want to try to focus today on uh it's a topic that you talk about

almost daily uh Capo the mind so like we always seem to do I want to start with a broad question and then we will drill down so I want to think you I want you to think about the work that you're that you continue to do on yourself I want you to think about the work that you continue to do with others and I'm curious What is the question that you have been asking yourself say over the past week or so or the question that most fascinates you right now about the mind that the only

place to actually live is in the moment and I I hope that no one heard what I just said because it's going to be too time to even listen to what I just said it's going to be a prescription and it's going to be yes yes I agree and it's going to be spirit ritual when it's going to be empty but Um I wish that I could speak to you on a very particular wavelength uh as to the exact and precise context flavor and level through which I am speaking so that you would hear it

on the same level context in FL but it's not going to how it's going to come across it's going to be completely futile well I want to assume that maybe the ones who know us by now we'll see maybe we'll hear it in a different light but what does that really mean what do you mean mean by That it means that everything that um our life consists of is essentially um stories upon stories upon stories and our our moods and the things that we we succumb to emotionally are all based upon the complexity of the

fabricated stories and that none of those stories actually exist and it is precisely and only when there is nothing in the way of a story that we are responding to reacting to or listening to that we actually are living in a world of Truth Well you you summed it up beautifully in a in a in a tweet I think a couple days ago or something when he said everything in a human's life is a game her mind's playing with herself yeah how do we ever win at that game how do we win at that game

by fully Vally recognizing that it's nothing more than a game that's the win so for you personally is that just something that's constantly going on in your mind have you become immune to stories that you're telling yourself or To the crap that your mind's constantly saying it is a it is an absolute um maniacal and devotional Pursuit but not yet and I but I but I bet there is a glimpse and there is a there's space that you have during the course of a day where you don't deal with that true yes absolutely is that

freedom then for you is that what you is that what we all should be seeking well no because it it'll be sought after in a pleasurable sort of way and then it'll be discussed Such that well I had four minutes of Freedom today and last time I only had three minutes this that's not what I want I'm I don't want pleasure um I I'm I'm looking for ultimate arrival and never leaving I'm not the score so I was very intrigued by the dialogue that you were having with your followers about this and it was all

over the place and and you you very elegantly chose to respond to the questions that really Were had some depth but what is is there a common misconception about the mind capile that most of us just get wrong well I think it's the same misconception about everything which is that everything is viewed through the lens of prescription so what are you talking about with that you know you hear people talk about the unconscious you hear people talk about the ego you hear people refer to that chatter in our mind as the monkey mind are you

referencing The fact that hey we're all seeking a prescription for that yes it's exactly right um uh making it academic and making it prescriptive so how do I for instance if there is Chatter how do I stop the chatter and uh what are some techniques and so-called you disgusting word called a hack uh what are the so-called hacks to to overcome these you know mind chatter as as if as if there was a technique or a method that one could employ and all of The Mind chatter would stop and it's it's frankly insulting to you

ask that question uh it the realm of on seriousness is so off the chart that one should just cringe and Sh asking that this should be just outright personal embarrassment uh and should stand naked in the street for sinking so low as to say what is a technique for over overcoming involuntary thought you should have shame before ask asking that Question I mean that's like saying you know how do I hold the entire ocean give me a technique that I can hold the entire ocean in an 8 hours right get serious so so this is

this is why I get annoyed when I have these question answer sessions and I get you know these flippant questions that no depth as you said no heart no no sincerity um no Nuance has gone into the creation of the question it's just been flippantly thrown out there they looking For a free handshake and a coat I want to piggy back on some things that I highlighted that just meant something to me right you talk about freedoms is at the other side of the Mind where is this other side how do we know we're getting

there um well you're not getting there so just forget about even asking how you know that you're going to get there you're not getting there um because in order to in order to even begin to get there the idea of prescriptions has to Be so completely um removed and cleansed from your system that but that isn't even going to be a possibility until that's where St and number two the other side of the mind uh it it you know that can be viewed in two different ways and and the con context of the English language

might have made that unclear Some might have viewed that as um the other side of the Mind meaning not the right side but the left side and what I meant was the other side of the Mind Meaning The Other Side of the Mountain such that once someone overcomes the mind then on the other side is the truth as opposed to the other side within the m and that that when I was writing that I felt that that could have been misconstrued uh in that way well I see it as the other side of the mountain

I mean that's how I interpret okay okay um so so essentially uh it's only once one gets past the pandemonium and the heroines and the Tornadoes and the typhoons uh of of stories and identities and likes and dislikes and preferences and prejudices and hopes and dreams and fears and anxieties and pressures and all of all of the uh the the complexity um and um uh my Asma that is the mind only once one overcomes all of that does the possibility of arriving at truth Freedom or truth even become remotely possible um because what will Invariably

happen is that one will enter that storm and that myasthma and try to fix things and say well there was storm uh how is it that I can lessen the storm how is it that I can not get wet in the rain how is it that I can do X Y and Z and the mind wants you to ask those questions because so long as you are asking them you are squarely a prisoner of it as you are asking them well it's obvious that we're all addicted to that side that's either unconscious or ego or

Whatever it is that you want to call it and it's very obvious from the interactions of people have with you in general who maybe haven't yet grasped this notion of no prescription why the hell are we addicted to that unconscious why did why are we addicted to that side that you're talking about right now because that's the only voice that is available that's the only message there's ever been so it really isn't it really isn't the fault Of human beings that they seek prescriptions that's the only loudspeaker that's been playing in their ear that's the

only tune that they've heard so there's been no opposing voice whatsoever so even from the gurus even from the religions even from the so-called sacred temples even from there it has been the same message of prescription and do this and do that and 20 minutes of this and all of this stuff so how how can anyone reasonably expect Anything being not to think so let's assume for a moment that uh we don't I don't want to live in that space anymore right if I don't want to live in that space anymore do you is there

do you feel like we each of us that are serious the five people that you and I have talked about can we train our mind to to at least start to shift away from that notion of prescriptions and that notion of that whatever it is that's going on upstairs and to start shift more towards Truth and I think that that shift happens when one um truly and genuinely examines um just how futile and how circular uh the the goose chase has been and that by continually not having arrived anywhere then one naturally begins to seek

ulterior means as opposed to um following the idea that he or she should not follow prescriptions because that in itself would then become a prescription so I want to ask you a couple questions that some friends of Mine who are big fans of yours and who who are really eager to dig a little bit deeper into your brain in a moment but before we get to that something again that uh emerged yesterday or the other day as I was watching and and seeing you respond to to some of the messages that you're getting one of

the things that emerges from our unconscious minds and you hear a lot of leaders talk about this are the mental models that kind of guide our Decision making what are your thoughts about these mental models that are typically unconscious no those are just more intellectual gymnastics and circular arguments and uh empty prescriptions mental models are empty prescriptions they are not the truth they are just ways to think of they are just constructs and if you get nothing else out of this talk understand this and you don't have to believe me examine it for Yourself all

constructs fail that's one of the things that um that's really one that I appreciate so much about how you approach what you do because there's so much talk about mental models there's so much so many books written so much chatter about uh you know the the best leaders in the world have these mental models and your answer to them is they're just like invol any other involuntary thoughts that were just well they're not they're not involuntary Those are voluntary I mean those are you know they you know people like to make themselves sound smart they

like to talk about how many books they've read and all the things that they've learned and uh the you know the opinion of so and so who is some scholar who has done this scientific research on X Y and Z it's all a bunch of crap okay it's not real it isn't TR um it's all the words of others it is regation and it is It is not truth it is not genuine it is not art um it is not sincere it is all Frameworks it is all scaffoldings that are suspended in the sky that

gravity will soon demolish in bits all of these ideas these these mental models are all intellectualization of how to approach things they are not based upon the sincerity of where things truly come from they are based upon a mode of attack in order to um manufacture an approach Intellectualization is absolutely the order of the day and it is also frankly ignorant so this question comes up a lot obviously uh none of us are immune to mistakes when you when when you look at the really stupid and hurtful things that people do in your opinion why

do really good people do stupid [ __ ] sometimes is that the mind of course 100% absolutely um the reason that that happens is because we identify with Things that are not true we we proceed and pursue things according to uh ideas that we believe are a certain way and they are not and so by whenever something is pursued uh in a way that isn't based upon reality then mistakes are a natural U consequence they have to be whenever something is pursued based upon an understanding of how things really are then one no longer makes

mistakes and when you look back at some of the Mistakes that you've made do you sit back and and reflect on them yeah I mean I'm going to give you an answer but it's you know I I don't want to hold back I'll give you the truth no I don't want you to hold back but I want you to to really help me understand and how you reflect on your mistakes so when when there's a mistake that is done the natural consequence and the natural behavior and the natural habit is for someone to say either

to themselves or By way of uh being given advice from some psychologist or something or a friend which is that okay the next time this happens make sure that you don't do that or the next time this happens now you've learned make sure that you do that instead and and those are all all fine and well- meaning but whatever whatever behavior that one replaces with the the old behavior that was ineffective the new one will be ineffective too it just May not be as egregious as the old one was but uh the old one was

egregious because it was a pure form of reaction right it was reactivity well the new one is a reaction to the old one so it also is reactivity it isn't it is it's a it's a it's a reactive fix and all fixes like all constructs fail and so when you Institute the new Behavior so to speak then that will cause its own problems and then something bad will happen again and then you'll say okay well now next Time I'm going to do this and this is what I mean and and 50 years go by and

nothing changes and that that's what I mean by all constructs fail no matter how wonderful the idea seems it fails it leaves you stranded in the Sahara every single time and as a result one approaching any issue from the standpoint of behaviors is doomed for failure behaviors are cosmetic so one has to approach things If they don't want problems or if they want to minimize the problems that may result by the institution of a certain actor Behavior Uh then one will understand the source from where his actions arose as opposed to trying to fit a

square peg into a round hole because it sounds right and because the psychologist said and because the five STS to be happy books and so and because Society will patch you on the back for having done so so and all these things The the the the problem the problem with doing things in this way and the reason why it's so easy to do them is because they sound so nice but things that sound nice usually aren't right so help me with this there are a lot of people out there who are very critical of themselves

especially in business and when you reflect on something like that whether it's a mistake that you made whether it's uh you know poor judgment whatever is there a better approach for You to take when you are self assessing yourself well the natural answer to that Society will give you is don't be critical of yourself be your own best friend well you're not going to give me that so tell me the truth the truth is that it isn't about being nice to yourself or critical of yourself it's not about it is it isn't about what you

did and what you should have done it's about whatever you did what was that a reaction to that's the truth and so dig Dig a little bit deep like can you give me an example I get it right and I was waiting to hear that get dig a little bit deeper maybe on something that you explored with somebody or something that you explored on you give me an example and then I'll go down that road okay so I'll give you an example I'll give you an actual examp you know what let me let me give

you something that is very interesting I have a dear friend of mine Who is a great thinking partner for me and he is a real advocate of your philosophy and he was contemplating the other day talking to me about Solutions versus complaints and he raised a great point he had heard you talk about running the 4-minute mile before so you know one of the things that we started to talk about hey if you did indeed run that 4minute mile and a great majority of your friends which were still running the 10-minute Mile how would that

impact you would you would that throw you off me personally or in general yes you um for me the training would occur in isolation as much as humanly possible logistically um so that the 10minute mile would not rub off on me as being a limit that I had to overcome and that once I reached 959 that I had somehow succeeded at something when it's actually just a false success based upon a reaction to the empty idea of competition um so Would it throw me off that I had ran 4 minutes and someone else had ran

10 no because um because the things that I would pursue in order to get to that four minute would be fundamentally off the charts wildly in the jungle different from anything that anyone's doing in society so it wouldn't throw me off at all and you wouldn't have any issues um you know if you were part of a relay team and you were the guy who was doing 4minute miles and the rest of the Crew was way behind well first of all you know I would know that by working within a group of a relay team

it would also it would essentially be an active mediocrity so because everyone's going to regress award the me so I really wouldn't want to be part of the reala team I would want to be part of any team but what if you have to what if you're running a business and you have to be part of a team a that's different if I'm part if I'm running a business I'm the Leader of that business I'm not interested in what anybody says the last thing a a leader who truly wants to make something highly unique and

Artful will treat his business as an autocracy the stupidest thing you can possibly do if you have any sense of genius with within you is to make it a democracy or to have these board meetings where you look for others to give you feedback you how can how can how can the people who work around REM Brandt give REM Brandt feedback about his art see where does this come from well that's a great question so these these ideas come from a kumay society which is fearful and that Society is fearful of being unkind and and

and sitting and and singing hymns together and everyone must be part of the team and everyone must be giv a tropy participate and everyone must be counted and you can run your company if you want that way but you know all see You in hell so I want let me pick you back on that for a minute assume you're that leader for a moment and you are capil Gupta who is in the in Pursuit at mastering his m mind knowing what you know how do you influence people on your team how do you get the

best out of them honestly it isn't about me getting the best out of anybody it would be about me bringing people on board to do highly super specific tasks that they were the Best in the world at and I would assess that DNA in the hiring process it wouldn't be about me bringing in someone in order to get the best out of it don't you feel that it's so so then describe to me what if the leader's responsibility isn't to continually get the best or Elevate the people that he that are working on his or

her team what is it then affecting himself um what human beings are most moved by whether they like it or not and this is not a Necessarily an intentional thing uh because there are there's something within a human being that uh respects uh something without the human beings conent um human beings are are moved by truth genuiness sincerity they are inspired by uncompromised they are inspired by uh seeing in a human being what they wish Long to see in themselves so uh the perfecting of one self as a leader is really the best chance that

one has to influence a mother and quite frankly if he tries to perfect himself in order to influence a mother then his act of perfecting himself will be disingenuous and it will fail the darkness that makes a hell of a lot of sense it really does and I appreciate you going at it from that angle and in the process of try trying to perfect Oneself what approach do the best people that you work with is it a constant reflection is it a constant self assessment on you know here are some things that I could be

better at or what what is the process that somebody goes through to continually go you know in that self-perfection state well it isn't what the best people do it is about how deep one's desire it is to arrive at the ultimate um because quite frankly there's no one doing this things that I'm talking about so I don't have any models to you are the model well so what I'll say is if someone truly wants to ride at the ultimate what he will do is is be so devoted to the truth not because he should but

because he has recognized that the truth is the only thing in the world that so he will be so devoted to the truth that in every situation he will be looking not mechanically if anyone walks away with this I'll slap them anyone walks away Thinking okay from now on I'm going to ask myself what the truth and there we go down that mechanical prescriptive Road when when if someone truly wants to ride a the ultimate they will constantly be asking themselves what the truth in the situation is as opposed to what they should do about

and do you feel it is it something is the truth felt um you are asking a question which says how do I know when it arrives and I am saying to you that the sincerity of your desire to Know it is the arrival okay I'm going to have to ponder that for a moment but I got two more questions for you I know you're not a big proponent of positive psychology positive selft talk whatever you want to call it but isn't that better than its opposite I'm not looking for what's better than worse do I

want to do I care that if there's two War zones I want to go to the one that has more Sunshine versus the Cloudy war zone I Don't care that's a boring question to me why would I ask that question and why would you ask it why would you ask the question that if two things are useless which one is less useless who cares why would you not ask the question what is the ultimate well tell me what the ultimate is then I'm I ask I asked these stupid questions so you can get me to

the right questions well the question is what is the ultimate the question is not isn't Isn't positive thinking negative thinking okay well isn't you know I mean a sunny war zone is better than a cloudy one that's right so why live there right why not live okay um what what way of approaching things does lead one to the ultimate what you know questions that's exactly what I wanted to ask so so help me understand that then by a desire to know what the truth about a situation is what the reality is as opposed to how

should I think about it what hack or Mental model should I view this through um as opposed to wearing some colored lens uh what with open eyes and no lenses at all what is the reality of this particular situation how does it sit naturally because once I know the truth about it then I will be able to navigate through it uncap all right last question a lot of people ask you about meditation I know how you feel about meditation um do you not feel that it serves any purpose at all to try to get Me

closer you're asking a disingenuous question you're asking for what is the minimum right do you not think that it gives you anything at all and and so the minute that I say yes you'll say see so you should do meditation no I'm not going to say that you should know me by now okay have you ever meditated yes sure absolutely and was that the clue to you that hey this doesn't work for me correct well it doesn't just work for me it doesn't work to get one to the Ultimate right I'm not so it's a

false construct absolutely it's like going for a job okay so someone could say once again it's all in how you phrase the question right it's if uh is so you saying is jogging bad for you no am I going to die I meditate no but is that a useless question yes the question is does meditation help you in some way and make you feel a little better fine yeah a multivitamin right the question is does It get you to the ultimate the ultimate meaning arriving at no involuntary thought arriving at Freedom you know uh having

really conquer all your emotions arriving at PE no it doesn't it doesn't let me just ask you one other thing help me understand the best way to phrase questions because this really I'm I'm enamored and very appreciative about how you do that for yourself and I'm not asking for a prescription here other than the fact I want to know from your Perspective what do you do to phrase questions that help you reflect appropriately that help you reflect in the types of depth that's going to lead you to the truth to myself or to someone else

both to yourself I mean certainly I'd like to get better at it for myself yeah to myself it's on a whole another level um I have to sort of pair things down a little bit when I'm talking to another I have to to some degree come at it from Where they are um so what I'll say to you is and when you talk to any clients of yours or people that you talk to uh you know it would be very dangerous of you to phras things from the standpoint of the truth because unless you have

beted these people um and uh know for a fact that this is the wavelength that they really are on it'll only still disaster for you because like you said five people well a lot of people don't even know what that Means the truth right that's Mis misconstrued in and of itself yeah and that's why you know there has to be a vetting process people who come to you should come after they have read your material or have heard you talk or what so that they know the the atmosphere and the environment and the the air

and the plane they entering into so what so give me give me a sense of some questions like we started with questions that fascinates you how about some questions That you've asked yourself that intrigued you recently I hate the word recently uh it's the same things always it's the same thing always which is what is it that I don't know it's it's always it's always that category of question it is always what is the real truth in this situation and do you just keep ding down till you find something or what what what are you

doing what is the truth in this situation that is not born of Reactivity that sits on its own that doesn't need support what is that independent truth that isn't based upon um being supported by by an idea from me or from anybody else it is the quality and the nature of the question you're one of a kind I appreciate it yes sir [Music] and uh so Capo first off how are you doing well always in Zen mode uh so as we always do I want I I I always love to start with asking you to

think about the Most fascinating thing that you experienced or learned this week so I throw it to you it's never that way it's never it's never linear and it's never um something new that I you know it's it all just kind of Blends in so it's I never I don't really think of it that way so I wouldn't know what to say so and did anything blend in particularly well this week no that's just a that's just a back door way of asking the same question no Nothing happened nothing happened at all no nothing happened

that made it while it's an extraordinary moment no I'm I'm I'm not looking for Extraordinary moments I I'm I I have no interest in extraordinary moments I'm I'm you know I'm very much interested in in uh uh in an arrival and whatever the whatever the Rocky or calm or whatever the moments are that lead to that that's all I'm really interested in that's where my where my eyes Are well did your eyes see anything towards that arrival this week that we haven't talked about in the past no you you just won't let it go no

no of course not don't you know me by now nothing well well I'll still I'll still come back to the back things I mean things things just you know when they arise they arise I don't I don't I don't um think about them to talk about them I don't I don't they they come and they're gone and usually if they come I'll Mention them in on Twitter so in in honesty um Twitter is probably the better person to ask well there's a lot of talk this week on Twitter on decision making from you I don't

really oh okay what did I say you probably don't remember but I'm want to get to it in a minute but I I want to I want to jump on a couple things that happened to me this week that I want to get your perspective on cuz I know we touched on those issues briefly but uh I was at a conference Earlier this week where I got to see a bunch of old faces and meet new friends and as I was kind of reflecting on the way back it was in San Diego on the experience

I started to think about the authenticity of some of those relationships I know you keep a very tight or very high bar on who who you allow in your life how do you distinguish between a real relationship and a phony one you know that's a good question you Know I don't really know if there are any so-called real relationships outside of the relationship that you have with yourself and I think that all other relationships are basically um an extension and um a a mirror of that one um so you know I what I the thing

that I enjoy talking about or exploring um really in honesty are the things that I enjoy exploring with clients um and you know I the social scene I mean that's very very narrow for Me um you know I don't I don't go to parties and get togethers unless I'm dragged there once a year or somewhere somehow I don't know how I get there but um but it's very tight it's it's not uh and it's it's not because there are not nice people in the world they absolutely are it's just that I as you know the

more I go along in life the more it becomes painfully clear that the things that I want to look into um are not really the things that Others want to look into mhm yeah and that's that's why I respect so much about you and that's why I asked right because coming back you know it's a couple hour drive I was just really thinking you know there's a lot of people who know how to put on a face or put on an act that when they see at one of those events or conferences it's a hello

and it's very cordial but there's really no meaning to that relationship and you come back and you think you know These kind of these relationships they don't nourish my life why the hell do I keep them so I was anxious to ask you that well you know I would say that very close to zero relationships nourish anyone's life um the thing that people get from relationship is they resp it from loneliness the things that people get from relationship is a chance to you know laugh and discuss things most of which are menial um so the

if you look at the foundation of relationships I Mean there is nothing but cracks in the foundation so I'm not sure how many of those really there there are um uh you know every every every friendship every relationship not only as a friendship but even in the setting of family I mean you're always just a Heartbeat Away from disaster mhm nothing in this life is is solid you know it's all thin ice why do we why why do most people run away from the relationship with themselves very few people are willing To ever talk about

that [Music] um well I mean why why would anyone you know because it is in many ways very dangerous to have those to look into that relationship with yourself because you find things that you don't really want to see and it's far easier to ignore and deny because as soon as you verbalize something it be becomes real so the the interiority of a human being Is a very dangerous place how did you yourself describe the relationship with yourself like when when you like when I threw out that whole relationship thing and you brought it up

about the most important relationship and I really agree with that is the relationship you have with yourself how do you describe that you I think it really is looking into where all of your um sort of your emotions come from it is Where your it's in the ways in which um a given individual is attached to all the things in his life and all the people in his life um and how those attachments and uh how those um those ropes and chains that bind um have a very costly impact upon him or her uh so

I think learning about those things uh makes it clear and gives resonance and uh and and an insight [Music] into why One says believes think feels the way that he does um I think uh I think breaking apart that foundation and tearing off all the layers uh it is not something that's healthy or good for you or recommended um but in doing so that actually is the way to um arrive at any semblance of solidity in one's life in which one doesn't live like a leaf in the wind and would you say for you personally

that's The most important work of your life right now um it's the only work it doesn't really work I mean there's nothing else in that there everything else is is simply an offshoot of that that's the foundation there is nothing else and it's not really work it's by necessity yeah for you right I I think the rest of the world and the rest of us need to really understand that yeah it is for them too but they just haven't Realized it so I'm curious what is the correlation between between some of the issues that you're

called to work on with some of your best clients and their relationship with themselves is there always a connection it it's there's no two things to connect it's always that irrespective of what they're dealing with professionally yeah there's if they're dealing with it it's them that the Issue what does it take for somebody to see [Music] that because we've been hearing you talk about it for at least for me personally for a couple of years right and I'm nowhere near where I need to be in recognizing that I think it depends upon where you want

to go and where no where you no longer want to be um so unless there's unless there's Some impetus which creates an urgency then you sort of um you sort of you know sink into the collecting ground so to speak and and that's where the mind wanders looking for prescriptions because you don't really want it anyway so you might as well reach out for a morsel of prescription to chew on um you know so it really has to be some some sense of urgency that arises uh for one to even look in that Direction and

does it always seems like those sense of urgencies are crisis right if somebody's facing some difficult challenge it's true you know it's true it's true but um unfortunately even then once the challenge is over then the default State returns so uh one of the most life-changing things is you know for some people is for instance a near-death experience you know um I think I think as a human being I should have a near-death experience once a Quarter because then that keeps a person on its toes and it keeps the hunger alive for truly um truly

seeking and evaluating what's you know at the foundation of things so for for you does that is it a vision that you construct to start to think of life that way or you know obviously you don't miss anything bad about on no no no no no no no I I never leave it yeah I'm at the point where I don't I Never leave it so that's just the space that you live absolutely yeah I don't I don't know why but um I've I've reached a point of no return I don't need any any any event

to make me dive head long into the interiority and the corridors of myself in order to learn about the mind that's 247 it's all I do and and not it isn't even a doing I don't have any choice mhm is that something that you try to encourage some of the people that you Work with to get into that head space no no I don't encourage that that that's something that has to be self-induced yeah and usually those things happen by way of inspiration they don't they don't happen by by way of information one of the

things that you one of the tweets that you mentioned one of the many tweets that I highlighted this week was this whole idea of conflicts between business partners are Never solved by compromises yeah yes help me understand that a little bit because that kind of leads to to some of the the business relationships that I want to get into with you yeah the conflicts between not only business partners but any relationship um if you if you compromise what happens it's never 50-50 right because if each person compromises then what they have left after they have

compromised is just a shell of who they Are and and therefore the relationship is the king I don't think the relationship should be the king um because if the relationship is the king then that means there's no people it's just a relationship so that which you compromise away you will resent for having been forced to compromise away so it isn't about compromise it's about uncompromised does not mean that um This is just the way that I feel and too bad well uh if there each person has to reach their non-negotiables um each person has to

arrive at the the the thing they cannot do or cannot keep from doing because if they do that or keep from doing that whatever that thing may be then they they they lose their Center they lose their Foundation they lose their Essence they lose the very thing that drives them they lose their engine whatever that may be so it is About finding what the non-negotiables are it is about finding what the UN compromises are um as opposed to compromising for the sake of that only leads to problems it doesn't fix anything and so when when

two people say uh that when each person says in the in the in the relationship that the that these are the things that I'm hard lined on because it's it not from a in a Superfluous way but this is truly in My DNA and I I can't cross that line nor would you want me to cross it because if I crossed it I wouldn't be the person that you want to be in business with because that that makes that's my DNA and when those lines are set then what can be compromised on are the things

that you hold Loosely so the things that you compromise on are the things that you don't really care about you don't compromise on the things about who you Are so I think these things have to be worked out and these things have to be put on the table and I think that when you look at things in this manner it is a fundament mentally different approach than it is to say I'll give a little if you give a little that doesn't go anywhere that's empty and I I really appreciate that and I I assume the

best time to establish that is at the outset of a relationship uh maybe maybe not I mean At the outside of a relationship um you know a person may not know what his DNA is you know um so it's whenever you know it's whenever the person discovers the uncompromising DNA and the lines that he is not willing to cross that and I think that's when that conversation can be had you know everything has to be based upon Honesty not for moral good I don't give two sents about moral good honesty because honesty works that's why

if honesty didn't work I would recommend dishonesty all day and all week but honesty Works honesty creates something within the heart of the human being which engenders him to him it it allows for a solid foundation upon which to build Things for for anything of any lasting value to occur and human beings are not really taught to be honest um they're taught to be clever they're taught to do X Y and Z they're taught to do this and don't do that um they're not really taught to be frank and forthright everything in everything in society

is a a a flinch and a beating around the bush and they don't step on That toe and don't say that too loudly and and it doesn't mean that you do the exact opposite because that also would be reactive but it's about moving forward with with honesty how do you really feel about this no no one's honest with themselves everyone's every everyone's a liar and as a society we hail clever like anybody clever it's like wow he's on the cover of magazine that's right or she's on the cover of Magazines yeah um if if two

business partners at are at this relationship crisis mode where each thinks their their their contribution is disproportionate to the other is it too late to have this uncompromising conversation I mean it's never too late to have the conver uh the conversation no it it the resentments might have built to a point where it's too late to mend them mhm but it's never to like to have the conversation even if it is to Discover that very fact that it's just it's too much to fix right and and do you when you think about these non-negotiables or

or the the key things that I'm unwilling to compromise on do you have a general rule of how many of these things you don't want me to make a list of 50 right are they the absolute essential things that I'm unwilling to compromise on yeah it really isn't intellectual uh it's real it's really feel in Essence um so it's not really a number but it really comes down to the things that you the things that you feel in your heart that you just can't do or can't not do do you have a criteria that if

you were and I know this is not going to happen to you but if you were to select a business partner for whatever reason what criteria would you use to select this individual who could potentially be A business partner for you you know I'm reminded of a person Billy Bean yeah if it's the Billy Bean I'm thinking about yeah so there's a there's a there's a scene in that wonderful wonderful film right um in which uh Moneyball in which he's talking to the the stats guy that they hire and [Music] um and he says to

him you know one way or another we're going to see this through either we're all in or we're not and if we're all in then we're going to fire the entire team right and we're going to trade every player that we have to until we get it just the way we want because it's only then that we know whether the system works or not we can't go halfway you know that's the Guy that's how things get that's that's exactly how things that's that's exactly how the truth is learned MH right it isn't and it would

be a mistake to assume that because he had success that that was the right thing to do I fundamentally disagree with that it was truth either way the the truth was that you had to carry out the system to a t with no exceptions no Compromises and because it is only then that you will know for a fact whether it worked or it didn't because if he did it 90% you would never be sure if that 10% was a wrench in the system or the system itself didn't work so that that Allin type sincerity is

something that to me is invaluable and early on in a relationship ship do you just feel it you know I don't know that you necessarily You know stay with the person that you start with you know these things change so if you do and it over time it there's um there's you know uh the person begins to lose his way or you don't feel that that solidness within the guy or the sincerity wains or whatever it may be then it may be that he had it at one time and doesn't have it anymore so it

isn't necessarily A doesn't have to be a long-term thing um but but the willing But the willingness to want to know the truth the willingness and the true desire to to you know I would be partial to someone who had a um a real objection uh almost a a hatred for the status quo who was who would be embarrassed to follow the status quo I think that would be a very foundational element I would Look for contempt contempt for the status quo and and how about this the whole idea of trust trusting somebody to dive

into business with is there a filter that you have that you go through in your mind early on on whether or not you feel you can trust this person or is that even important to you you know you know um trust is something that you find out over time uh you will get obviously you will Get to mistrust very quickly if you know if that shows its teeth uh but but trust establishes itself over time well you had a great thread one of the best threads this week was uh about per making perfect decisions and

I want to just dive into a couple of those um in a second but is there such a thing as a perfect decision yes okay describe it for me the perfect decision is the pure decision the perfect decision is the is The decision that is that has no interference or reactivity and is that what you mean by saying it does not produce self-conflict correct and and is and do you and a perfect decision does not always produce the so-called perfect result it may produce it Accord in in one way a perfect decision always produces the

perfect result but the reason that I say that is because the perfect result in a Particular human being's eyes is not always the perfect [Music] result well see that's why I bring it up because I think you captured in about eight or nine words what countless books and articles talk about is this whole Art and Science or whatever of decision making when you said that the decision is wise if it does not produce self-c conflict that doesn't mean that the decision is going to be right or it Doesn't mean that the decision is going to

be wrong I look at that as being one of those uncompromising things that you talk about is hey as long as I feel no inner anxiety when I make a decision whether it's right or wrong I'm going to make it am I on the right track in thinking like that um I can I think that I think that can be bastardized I would say that as long as I feel nothing after having made it mhm then it's a perfect Decision where conscience doesn't open its mouth and neither does fear and neither does excitement where where

there's a flatline and and because if you do it before then you know people are clever human beings and they'll pull out their prescription book and they'll spend 30 minutes meditating to make themselves calm and then in that in that narrow 14c window they'll make the decision and see see I made it while I had no anxiety mhm And then on the 15th second of course they become crushed by the anxiety that they've you know held at the door so I think it's the one I think it's the feeling after you have made it so

so what do you think paralyzes people I know far too many people Capal who are paralyzed to make decisions in their lives and one of the most important decisions is to is what you and I have been talking about for s or years to make this commitment to go on This uncompromising journey to the truth so whether it's personally or professionally or relationally there's an overwhelming majority of people who aren't willing to make tough decisions or important decisions in their lives so what's the question is it [Music] fear um certainly some Arts of the fear

of being wrong especially in business fear of not wanting to see the Truth as opposed to following the road of prescription is that what you mean yeah yeah um you know human beings are conditioned so I think it's I'm not sure it's correct to believe that they really have a [Music] choice between following the truth or or being or or following their programming and conditioning to Seek prescriptions they're not they're not you know sitting in a vacuum in which they can truly go either way the the the pull and the gravity of the conditioning is

too great which means that the pull and the gravity of of seeking the truth as a result of either become having become um uh Tired uh having wasted their lives with prescriptions or by uh a a genuine desire to take the truth either one will work but no one's really sitting in neutrality uh having to make an intellectual decision as to whether they will seek the path of prescription or truth what's the role of intuition in your life I think the difficulty is deciphering between conditioned Intuition and natural intuition um uh you know and don't

ask me how uh it listen I've learned my lesson yeah it's I think that question is the greatest how there is in this particular context um the very fact of knowing that the intuition that's coming up is that arising from conditioning and programming having lived in a society is it a is it a reflex Behavior or is it true I think that question has to be genuinely asked not verbally not not Mechanically and not prescriptively that question has to be explored knowing that that intuition isn't just intuition and when do you know you're you you're

getting a glimpse of the truth for you personally um when it when it isn't a reaction to something and and when it isn't a um a play for something when there can be no other choice totally you all right I want to ask you two more things and these your Requested questions uh from people who listen to us often a leader wants to know um is do you have a preferred method at setting organizational goals from the perspective of understanding that um weak goals meaning goals that are just incremental growth are lead to complacency impossible

goals in her eyes are difficult to get people inspired around so where is that sweet spot so we can get an organization to Rally around Something that that it hasn't done before there's no rallying okay first of all everything's got to be doing done with one person the leader there's no rallying there's no pep rally there's no there's no Collective there's no group all that those ideas have to be completely you know jettisoned um in asking that question whatever leader that you're speaking of who asked that question uh it should be known that this Leader

is placing a massive and enormous ceiling upon him or herself in asking that question no matter what answer that they possibly could receive CE uh the very question is a dead end so H how how are the teams inspired Vision there's no team there's no team Mo the the it listen if you have 10 people in a room let's be honest I'm not here for diplomacy right we're here to tell the truth we're here to speak the truth I'm not I'm not here to make friends and make everyone happy it just be to speak the

truth if you have a group of 10 if you have one in those 10 who was an unique rare DNA outside the box human he needs to run like hell from the other nine cuz I can guarantee you in a group of 10 you're not going to have that one and if by some miracle you do you're not going to have two so that one is going to be swallowed By the nine so that one needs to forget about motivating anyone or rallying anything that one needs to become so world class at learn at arriving

at Purity at arriving at internal wholeness at arriving at making perfect decisions at arri at arriving at crystallizing his or her vision without any interference feedback questioning or pollution by any of the other nine and this is not going to be written In any book and this is not going to be in conferences right yeah that we know for sure so no one's going to discuss these things because because it's it's it's too Stark okay it's the absolute truth there are not that many rare DNA human beings in the world and the ones that there

are and there are there are several five to be exact well whatever there are maybe six this week they're never in the same they're never in the same Group never so where ever they are all around the world um they need to allow themselves the permission to be unabashedly who they are because they are like the sand that being lapped by the ocean of the common who was wearing away their foundation so so if I'm if I am this Individual running this company and I know that hey one out of the 10 or five out

of the 50 or 100 out of the 5,000 well that leader has to be that one you know that leader has to be that one what the hell do I do with the other 4500 you know when the one is completely the one people fall in line that's the way usually works mhm if you open a door of Kumbaya all you're going to get is filth and all you're going to get is interference and noise and all you're going to get is putting massive ceilings on a company that could have been great if it had

been run by way of uh you know a single leader as opposed to you know give me feedback it's such a it's such just nonsense it's conditioning right it's conditioning yeah give me feedback as to how you Think I I mean like I told you in the last podcast you know Ram Brandt doesn't ask for feedback right that was one of my favorite lines right yeah and if and if you're not a rembrand then realize that right but you know but you have to ask real questions you cannot you cannot go to business conferences and

meet with common people in the business community and discuss these business ideas and these Leadership ideas and these methods and techniques and five way way to lead and and be kind to your employees and don't say that and don't fire them and fire this one but don't fire that one and make sure I mean what do you think this is I mean just people are not serious they're just not serious they're juvenile yeah well and then and then you know they know that uh you are certainly one of a kind so here's my last question

to you uh one of the things that um that I really have tremendous respect that I've gained from you about approaching life is to have these non-negotiables or uncompromising you know ways that I want to lead my life but the whole idea of not really caring about what others think is really almost liberating so when I think about people living like that is is that kind of a glimpse of what Freedom looks like for people who really truly live that way I think that's a massive Milestone to arrive at not caring what anyone thinks about

you not even your own family not even your own kids not your spouse not your boss and if you're famous not your followers not your audience not your fans Not the media uh to to not reactively but to genuinely arrive in that place inside yourself um because you have really explored who you are and who you are not and the things that you have pretended To be and owned up to pretending to be them inside yourself um and and in in in removing all of those facades within you to where you arrive at this enormous

calm because you no longer have to put on a face um that's an enormous milestone in a human being's life well I I am eternally grateful for you for helping me see that for myself and I think with just the the last thing I want going to leave people with what this is it doesn't mean you need to be rebellious you know I think when someone starts to truly believe that it brings out the best in them it brings out again one of the things that you talked about I think the first conversation we has

is it's not about trying to acquire more things or more knowledge it's really about accessing what's there and I think that feeling enables you to access what's inside that ordinarily probably Wouldn't have come through most of the time sure so thank you we've got an exciting half hour or so planned for you guys today as we plan to dive into understanding the truth only as told by capil Gupta about your industry and I can hardly wait for your perspective capil but first off how are you doing well right it's always good to hear your voice

man when we do these but before we dive into our topic today I want to Address two quick questions that I have gotten from our audience that I think are really worthy of discussion the first one is something that we've talked about in the past but uh I want to drill a little bit deeper in there and it has to do with positive selft talk and I know we've touched on this briefly before but the idea of no mind that you share is still so elusive for so many um so given the choice this particular

member wanted to know isn't selft talk Better than the alternative then what negative selft talk well you know just like last time I mean I'm not sure if the listener heard the last talk or not but I think the question is largely uh it's a it's a very um it sort of faping the bottom of the barrel of a question because it's kind of like comparing two irrelevant things and asking which one is less irrelevant uh so positive selft talk or negative selft talk or I mean they're Not that different I mean so positive selft

talk yeah it might give you a little uptick in terms of how you feel but uh it whenever you talk to yourself uh put it this way when you try to convince somebody else of something the other person feels as if he's been trying to be convinced is that right and that's that's my biggest pep peeve with sales that's a whole another topic of conversation but yes and so and so if when you talk to yourself the fact that You have to talk to yourself um yourself mean basically your mind uh immediately puts up red

flags and says oh I'm trying to be convinced and therefore it it puts up a brick wall the same as anyone puts a brick wall up when someone tries to sell sell them something right salesman's talk so self talk is salesman's talk it's not real so the only things that are real are the things that you feel and the things that are spontaneous and are done as soon as They're done and then the message comes across loud and clear whether it's another person or whether it's oneself that oh this person is serious it's done so

selft talk is very mean these are very lowlevel Concepts these are these are very like 101 basic human juvenile kindergarten type things that I'm kind of shocked that people who have spent so many decades of their life trying to ostensibly trying to learn about it and all they've come to is Selft talk and when they haven't gotten over that little hurdle it's kind of like you had got past your ABCs so it's kind of it's kind of silly I mean there's a there's a there's a whole um you know there's there's a whole universe of

unexplored truths that no one's even kn on the door you know everyone's still stuck on this little little you know one little step up to the garage door that it's it's it's juvenile well it's what it's what modern Society and and culture really programs everybody to do who who subscribes to the whole idea of self-help yes it is um but it's it's what you said is absolutely true um what I will say though is that um whether the people who are programmed became programmed by modern society or whether they became even if modern society didn't

program them something else would have and the reason is is because they are to a large degree Programmable and so we are all in many ways conditioned but it really takes a particular strand of DNA of of a human being to to be programmable only to an extent before he naturally stops and says and says wait a minute what's what's going on here um so I absolutely blame it on society there's no doubt about it but then again Society is created by human beings and so the human beings who create the so-called the so-called Programming

are also the very ones who wish to be programmed so so whether it's the one who the one who is doing the programming or the one who is being programmed the fact is that that the number of people in this world who are neither of those groups is very small so I can't so I can't just blame it all upon just so-called this amorphous impersonal thing called Society so let me ask you well you know Let me that brings up something that I have heard on more than one occasion from people who were super Elite

Achievers in whatever field of endeavor they're in that when they look at their performance they think that the last 10 or 20% of their performance often comes from negative emotions which is their ability to get in touch and almost tolerate their fears do you see that what do you mean last 10 or 20% kind of like you know that last it's almost kind Of like the last you know 10% of of charging a battery whether it's with a car or a phone often takes the longest so you know when you think about golf for example

since you're involved when you're involved heavily in golf you know the Step Up from winning a PGA tournament and winning a major T tournament is that ability to get in touch with that negative of moment that can fuel a different level of Ingenuity or Performance um you know that that could be true I mean what basically what you're saying is uh that negativity can light a fire under someone is what you're saying that there's some good to that absolutely um negative Mo motivation is far more powerful than positive motivation uh being the the prospect of

losing something is far more power powerful than the prospect of gaining something uh so loss aversion is more powerful than than acquisition so So to speak uh so that that's that's true that's true um but it isn't it isn't necessarily a strategic thing to where someone says well I'm here I better introduce some negative emotion or something negative so that I can climb on that negative step and gain that and you know it has to happen organically right so so I yes there is there is absolute truth to that um you know a lot of

the motivation that comes from people who achieve is that during Their childhood they were they were ridiculed and that is that is an enormously powerful motivator I love this question leads me to this question from an individual who who sent it in and it's one that I've contemplated many times but uh the reference is obviously one of the themes of the work that you do is freedom and the question is this Individual is asking well while I listen to the conversations that you have with capil I leave knowing that freedom is what I most want

in life yet the moment I start to think about it fear sets in so am I really and I'm not really sure why could it be that I am afraid of freedom I think that's a really good question 100% um because everything is a cost and if something sounds nice to you and it may be something that you genuinely want however the question is Not whether you genuinely want it that isn't the question the question the question is do you genuinely want it at the exclusion of all else that you're that you're willing to pay

whatever it takes without any idea or any notion that you should or that's good for you or that it's proper or it's moral or it's correct or it's healthy or it's spiritual none of that garbage no do do you regardless of what the world say and with no rules or regulations Whatsoever of false morality and all of this nonsense do you actually want that more than anything else now the the person is absolutely right Freedom actually happens to be something that everybody wants in fact Freedom happens to be the thing that everybody wants more than

anything in their life it is just that um they pursue it by they they look for water within a rock so uh so because the idea is a morphus and yet the things that they Have in their life are tangible comparing something amorphous or something tangible becomes frightening because you don't know really what it is so it really is less about freedom of and it's more about freedom from so the the question more becomes um along the lines of uh freedom from anxiety Freedom From Fear Freedom From Pain freedom from all of these things and

that becomes much more tangible that becomes much more understandable as Opposed to you know some magical idea of freedom what what does that really mean so they know everyone knows what anxiety is on an experiential level everyone knows what fear is everyone knows what failure is everyone knows what what pain and confusion and sorrow and sadness all those things everyone knows what that is and because someone knows what that is if you view Freedom as freedom from those things then it becomes much more tangible and understandable you know I Once heard Bruce Springstein say that

um to taste Freedom all you need to do is risk being yourself your true self and the more that you and I dig deeper into some of these issues that is the minority of individuals in this world that are willing to take the risk of being themselves I don't think there's any risk to anything I don't think anyone should risk anything I think it I think something becomes Possible for a human being when he has no choice if there's a risk then it isn't worth doing well the risk of being yourself is also the risk

of being unaccepted by other people the risk of being you know ridiculed and and you know those are the things that I think cause individuals to have fear although we're all in pursuit of this level of freedom is very difficult for people to walk away from something like you said well I would say that it's much More along the lines of freedom from the fear of losing a job freedom from the fear of of whatever the situation may be I don't I don't think that you can I don't think it's practical to give something tangible

away in exchange for an idea it has to be tangible both ways because only then can you compare the compare the value of each tangible thing so so so what I what I disagree With what the idea of what Springstein said what I disagree with is well all you have to do is this whenever there's an all you have to do no one's going to do it and nor nor nor should they because because you know do you know why because it's a leap of faith and leaps of Faith they're not practical they they only

exist in in books there no there's no leap of faith of anything if you if you have faith in anything you're probably going to fall in your face okay Because most things aren't worth believing they're not true so there can't be any leap of faith there can be a leap there can be a leap towards something that you don't know there can but in order for that leap to happen the circumstance of your present day environment has to be so bad and unacceptable that you are willing to take take a leap and if someone says

to you well what are you leaping towards that person will say I have no idea all I know is that I am not going to be here anymore whatever this is this is not going to happen anymore I can't be I don't know where I'm going to go and I'm willing to LEAP all I know is that wherever I land it's not going to be here so that's that's desperation right it can never be of a sound mind and a conscious decision those things are no those are textbook type things they're not real right um

it has to be something that that's there's There's there's aing or a massive aversion right everything is about the extremes it is not about the moderation everything's about the extremes it is only the extremes that produce transformation so let's talk about industry and let's talk about the the truth about industry and I thought it might be good for us to set some context and maybe frame our conversations around the idea uh that that it's really about Entrepreneurs who are building companies since that's primarily our audience when do I truly know as an entrepreneur in whatever

industry that I I really do understand the truth about my industry what does that look like oh that's a that's it doesn't matter what it looks like it matters that the question is asked see you you it's like um it's like jumping into a river when you jump into a river um the Flow takes you and when the flow takes you you you are moving so fast that you are trying to avoid rocks that come in your way you are you are worrying about the waterfall that may come at any time right you're worried about

the branches that stick into the river from the the bank so that you don't get cut um so everyone is so lost because because the the flow is so powerful and so pervasive and so all encompassing that everyone gets lost in The putting out of the fire such as avoiding the rocks avoing the branch looking out for the waterfall whatever it may be uh and so there is so much to do there is so much uh going on that uh the the assumption is already made that that the questions that are already stated when the

person comes into that industry are the questions that he begins to ask he never asks wait a minute are the questions that are being asked even relevant that doesn't happen That doesn't happen it's always um okay so I'm going to jump in here you guys are playing this game so let me try to compete and play it too how do I get better at this game so immediately one begins to try to get better at the game that's already going on as opposed to asking what a minute why I don't want to get better at

this game what why is this game here and who are the opponents and why did they start no one does that no one does that they They they jump into the river and they get taken by the flow so there nothing do that's a that's a a 40e later question that you just asked how do I know when when when I've arrived at what the truth about the industry is that that's that's way down you know Downstream the first thing is who who's asking the question to say wait a minute who's forget I mean even

more fundamental than saying what games are you playing even more fundamental than That and this is where almost body goes is is well what industry am I really in no one ask that right so there are questions that are so ridiculous that no one will even pose them out loud because they know that they'll get smacked down so quickly before they even arrive at the last word of their sentence uh because what do you mean what industry you're in I mean you when you you know you know you don't know anything you don't even know

what Industry you're in let me tell you right now there may be three people who know what industry they're in no one knows what industry they're in they just know the industry they just know the industry that has been created in that name they don't know what actually it's about they don't know what the fundament of the fundament is and if they did they would not join the games and in not join the games they would ask fundamentally different questions which would take Them on different tangents and avoid all the mud wrestling so tell me

what state of mind does it take for me to at least start to recognize that I don't want to go down that liver that River well there there's no state of mind it's it's either that either that comes within you or it doesn't right or someone brings that to your if it doesn't come with youin you someone brings that to your attention or they don't so if it naturally comes Within you then um you will be elite uh if it doesn't come within you and no one brings that to your attention then you're you're sunk

so you work with leaders who were outliers and innovators in their respective Industries do you find their approach to thinking about their industry different than most of the other people out there generally yes generally yes um a lot of times it's also that uh they I would say more more succinctly that uh the DNA for that is there the the sensitivity and the receptivity of that is there the seeds of that are there and in most cases those seeds have already been planted and blossomed but a lot of times they've forgotten about those seeds because

they've lived in this environment for so long in which the only loudspeaker voice they hear is that of society and of their own industry that you kind of by osmosis Begin to Fall for those traps because it's all you hear you know it's kind of like it's kind of like uh brainwashing in in gitmo right they hang you upside down and they put speakers in you I know they do it or not that's what you hear right and I you hear about prisoners of War know getting you know put loud speakers in their in their

ears uh saying the same things over and over again of of you know that they want them to hear it's same thing right everything's GMO wherever you look This is all terrorism wherever we go it's it's all this is all one Mass conditioning uh there there's no difference um so so then they tend to forget who you know that they're not of this ilk um uh but but yes I mean it turns out I I guess it's self- selecting in a way because of who I choose uh but the the people who I work with

are they they have that seed either it's in some it's blossomed in some it's not um but that receptivity is always there and Since most of them are leaders does that does that receptivity and does that level of thinking Capal translate to everybody else in the organizations or are they Shifting the entire ship in the direction that they want to go no I think it's more about them and um the the the steering of the ship really has to be done by the top and not by top committees by but by top individuals so I

I don't I think it's a very impractical thing to say that you Know that needs to be fed into all of the um uh the entire company because that's very impractical you're not you're not going to feed this type of DNA into non DNA people you're just not um so so you steer the ship according to what you think is you know in line with your uncompromising vision and everyone else sort of rides the ship but but but this Democratic this this need or effort to try to explain to others so that they will they'll

you'll Get blank looks there's there isn't enough time in a lifetime to do that and even if there was it still wouldn't do you any good so let me ask you about one particular industry let's assume let's assume you or somebody that you you work with very closely is in at the real upper echelon of finance and that's an industry that is as traditional and as conventional as you come how do you approach thinking unconventionally about that business well it it's irrelevant What business it is I mean the questions are always the same the question

is whatever the prevailing beliefs are are they true and what is the evidence that they are true and who and and have these questions really been asked or not well most of the time they think they're true right and and isn't it because they don't they only they're they're providing surface answers to themselves and it's really all they know like if I go and talk to some of the people that I Know in finance and ask them the same question the likelihood that I'm going to get a similar answer is very high well that's but

but why is that because that's that's all they know and it has succeeded for them you know it served them well for I I would say it's probably 80% that that's all they know MH uh and the remaining 20% is because they don't have that DNA and do you think you can acquire that DNA I think I I think it is A massive I think it is a I think it's massively misleading and frankly incorrect to to assume that the the the majority of people right who have been conditioned according to the prevailing dogma of

their industry that if they were if they were brought into a room and they were told the truth that they would suddenly have All this this this amazing Epiphany and they would say thank you and they would they would you know say I'm so glad I now know the truth that just isn't going to happen now might there be one or maybe two in the entire yes yes but but that so it that's why I say it isn't just about the fact that that's it's all they know it is the fact that even if they

did know it it's they would have to have a Certain uh fortified Foundation in order to in order to be able to carry that truth and most just don't I they just don't I'm not here to make things sound nice Mo I mean I what am I going to say to you that they just don't the number of people I mean look at Twitter I mean just look at the comments that I Reed from people right yeah the comments not just me not just me look at comment everyone receives right I mean most of Them

are very intelligent comments and most of them most of the comments are that the the Tweet hasn't even you can clearly tell that the person who responded didn't even fully read the tweet that as soon as there was a word that triggered them that they immediately stopped reading it and then responded because it went against their belief now I don't think anyone should agree or disagree um and I don't think that that's wrong what they did or what They did I'm simply making an observation uh with no expectation of any change in Behavior right I'm

just making an observation that this is the way human being the vast majority of human beings are no so the idea that you keep implying that if only they knew the truth Mo you don't even want to know the truth nobody wants to know the truth it's just it's just the case it it's it just it that's just the way things are And and it doesn't matter it doesn't matter that someone should be told that they should want to know the truth it's just the way it is the you know the the the Pacific Ocean

is blue the sun rises in the East and nobody wants to know the truth and there's no wrong or right about that there's no outrage it just is the way it is MHM and how about the DNA you know the the the 20% that that you were talking about um that have the DNA to be out Outliers in their industry yeah can the rest of the people out there who are not part of that 20% um capture some of that magic but but why why why do you ask this question like why do you care

why okay here you know I I'm not interested in asking if the masses can be raised to notches right we're not talking about the masses maybe we talk about say 21% instead of 20 no not no said the 20% that remained in all the people who was were not going To get it the 20% that remains as to why they did not get it not that 20% of the population is like right right right I'm with you I'm with you so what I'm saying is I'm not I'm not really interested in in raising the masses

by two notches why it doesn't make any sense it it is a far more far more promising and more productive and more transformational thing to raise the people who were at level eight raise them to 10 okay because them getting to 10 will Automatically lift the others just by them getting to 10 so it isn't about working at the bottom I mean this the lowest common denominator philosophy is is ridiculous and that's what goes on in schools and businesses everyone's the lowest common denominator why would you start there who cares let's work with the people

who were at the top and make them 110% so who do you when you think about captains of industry who do you think About um I I I don't I don't I don't think of Captain in Industry I just I I I'm not saying that there aren't amazing rare DNA people out there because there are I just have met all the captains of industry to to be able to evaluate for myself so what's often missing between the people who are at eight and what does it take for them to get to that 10 or even

to a nine yeah um good question uh permission you know a lot of people Highlight that in our talks or in our conversations as huge insights for them dive into that a little bit what do you mean permission permission for what permission to get to that level the people who are a a nines Mo um tend to have an inkling that everything's full of crap but um something inside them says but but maybe maybe it's not and um could things really be that off base I maybe I'm overdoing it right when They're given the permission

to say you know what all the doubts that you're having are 100% true immediately the tether which keeps them tied to the Earth snaps and when that happens do you think that level of authenticity or vulnerability allows them to access whatever is left to be able to elevate to that level I think that I think that if someone gives themsel the permission absolutely Um but if I may be honest I think many I think for the most of the people who are't the eights and the nines if they were going to give themselves permission they

would have already done it by now and and so um you know raising you know raising their voice against the background noise higher than the background noise is a very you know it's a very um uh challenging and difficult concept or Prospect and so it tends to be someone else who gives them the permission um and that's the way it often times work I mean not always not always I mean there are some who absolutely will give themselves permission 100% uh but then there are many others who who you know really I mean when you're

when you live in the ocean and all the waves say the same thing right and you're the only wave who was saying not only a little bit off but like the moon compared El Then you know it there tends to be naturally there tends to be a need for permission to say you know what yeah actually it's true everyone is wrong every W what the every wave in the ocean actually is absolutely way off base you're the only one and who who is who is that person that takes him to that level is it a

coach it can be um the number of a partner the number of the number of people who exist to be able to give them That permission is two and a half right I mean we've gone from five to three to two and a half now right well the five who exist who need the permission and there's probably two and a half who can actually give it right the world over I mean we're talking such small numbers it it it the Rarity of human beings with rare DNA is um is not is is way overstated you

know What I mean it's it isn't understood just how rare it is in this world mhm when you when was the last time you gave somebody that permission oh very very very often and what do you see what happens there's something that typically happens that you see when that when that light goes on yeah there there lit there there's a a sense of absolute freedom when that happens because the person generally suspected it all along but all They kept hearing was the complete opposite which is that they're crazy and they don't know what they're doing

um and they're you know and and they knew it they knew something was massively off it's a DNA thing and at that point do you just start to see a change in behavior when you're working with him or what what happens after you start to see that permission take hold you know I don't really know I I I mean I don't do the conversations that you guys have Changed yeah yeah the questions change yes yes because the stakes get higher or what no because the then now all the stops can be pulled out because they

were they were kind of put on layaway for so many years yeah well this is a fascinating conversation because all of us you know with the exception of the two and a half and yourself have doubts right have doubts about our capabilities have doubts about our Ability and doubt sets in sure yes yes right and we want to give ourselves that permission right we want to be able to have someone else give us that permission but for whatever damn reason we don't is it be well what are you going to give yourself permission to do

permission to start to move towards that level of Freedom that we're talking about well the permission that I'm talking About is the permission that I'm talking about is the the the validation and the confirmation that the the suspicions that everything when everybody was wrong were true that's what I'm talking about that's the permission I'm talking about so if someone doesn't already have that then there's no permission needed then it's a prescription that you should move towards Freedom or whatever it is MH mhm So that has to be so someone needs something already has to be

there that needs permission so that it can leave the Earth it's permission to say Hey you know get away it's almost that immunity from what other people think of me or what you know what my industry thinks of me that leads me to ultimately become you know unreasonably successful with within that context right that's a huge thing yeah not caring what others think of you as a massive Milestone yeah that's a that's a real difficult and you can't prescribe your way there yeah what did it take when did you know you were there because I

know you are I think it comes down to what are the consequences of not being there and then and then seeing if those consequences are acceptable to you or not without any sense of should or shouldn't and so for me it's not okay like for me it's simply not okay um that That uh you know what everyone thinks of me you know is uh something that I need to juggle and uh and and change and manage modify are you at a point in life where you're totally immune to to the outside noise I honestly I

haven't examined that question I think it's a wonderful question I haven't really I haven't really asked that question if I if I am or am I am I not um but I but I will say that uh yeah for me to give you an Honest answer I have to truly examine but it's I mean it's a fairly good way there you know yeah you're definitely you're you're definitely there okay my last question to you has to do with with the the scope of Entrepreneurship that's going on in the world it you know it seems like

you know at least in the valley and in in other places in Tech that in order to create something really breakthrough you have To do what no one else is doing and you know people approach that by coming up with moonshine shot and so forth if you were working with a group of entrepreneurs who wanted to start businesses with the thought process like that how would you help them think I would I would um have them approach the matter from the standpoint of what will give them ultimate satisfaction as opposed to what will give them

pleasure and what does Ultimate satisfaction look like is that personal for each of us Andor collectively as indiv as company Builders absolutely it's well it's for each person each individual person what satisfaction looks like for them um I think it really comes down to getting away from chases and and with a uh with with Clarity and wisdom and calmness and serenity to examine why why one is in the business that they're in what Business they actually are in that they didn't know that they were in and um to move away from anything that is done

in a reactive fashion that will uh only lead to a Chase uh such as being better than another person right so none of these things have to do with being are wrong or right it's not wrong to want want to be better than any nothing is wrong there are no rules there's no morality there's nothing okay there's just Nothing so what what is truth is when I arrive at this place which place do I have to arrive that will no longer cause me to Chase and and that isn't wrong either it is just that if

you no longer have to chase then you don't spin your wheels then you're not constantly thirsty and hungry which also means you don't really give a damn about your competition right that I know in your eyes they don't Exist yeah I mean I I think that if you if you compete um then you haven't really found anything that's worthy because you you haven't arrived at something that is um truly uh otherworldly you're just one more of the same perhaps a little bit better a little bit cheaper so that's and that once again once again it

it's personal Mo like like so to me that's boring right to play the To play the um did I lose by an inch or win by an inch game to me that's boring now I'm no one needs to take my view that's for me right so I would never tell someone else you know why would you do that that's boring because it may not be for them it may not be boring for them I still I still think it's leaving a massive am on the table that that's true but one must approach things according to

the way that he feels and What moves him and what inspires him does that go the same thing for athletes or golfers sure absolutely yeah athletes athletes don't really the athletes are just like the executives and the CE they're all the same they're all the same no one really asks where does that they want to go they want to win tournaments and championships well that's right don't we no that's too vague that's too vague you have to find Out what the ultimate destination is and it may be that winning tournaments is a part of the

Avenue which takes you to that destination but just winning a tournament or not that's boring that means that you're rolling the dice every single week what's the ultimate what's the ultimate Vision to be the best in the world is that is that what we're talking about sure be the best in the world that's that's that's more tangible right um you know that it something Something the destination has to be clearly spelled out you know I was I was talking to you know I was talking to a tour caddy you know um at a at a

at a pretty big PJ Tour event and I said you know we were it was it was a rain delay and we were sitting there talking and I said listen um you cuz he was having trouble with his player and he I said listen you need to go ask him who do you want to be and he looked at me and he said doc Listen if I asked that question to my player he'd fire me yeah okay and he said if you ask anyone in this room any of the tour players in this room uh

that question first of all they would know how to answer it they' never asked that question no one's ever told them to ask that question and they probably fire you for asking it right I can't ask my guy that question you see so this is so no one you the number of people who are truly Exceptional even on the PGA tour or the NBA or in Silicon Valley or you know wherever you want is is is minute Mo minute it's a fraction of a fraction of a fraction so let me ask you if for for

the three that are serious how do we start to contemplate that question how do we start to really explore this whole idea of what do we want so you're convincing me that most of us think we know what we want but we really don't people don't Know what they want because they never never really asked the question and the reason that they never really ask the question is because they're too busy chasing so I'm trying to think about that chasing goals chasing what whatever whatever chasing whatever the flow of the stream is I mean in

order to ask a question you need to have space you need to have time away and a mental um uh sort of timeout from the flow of the river mhm So you can so that you can actually ask that question no one really uh no one really has that time or gives themsel that time because they're too busy you know the next meeting the next email the next phone call the next you know business lunch the next you know lanyard wearing conference right the next the the next you know employee to hire you know there

there's a line of 796 fires that need to be put out right there's no time in space to free of Those fires to be able to ask that question and even if there were then that time and space would be used for vacation so all the time in a person's life is spoken for it's allotted fascinating stuff man I guess we can hit pause on this session uh I want to start you and I were just talking about your boys uh and I have so much respect for the manner that you work with them on

their golf game and I was reminded of that over the weekend Watching Rory maroy win the FedEx Cup and I remember you telling me that uh his approach to the game is what's going to make a difference to his career tell me what that's all about because I got a hint to that on Sunday well I don't think that that I don't remember saying that but uh you just saying that that doesn't just apply to him that applies to anyone it's always about the approach it's always about the the lens Through which you look at

something uh it's never really about the x's and the O's how does how what do you see in him what what got him over the top you know I don't I don't think it really goes anywhere to say well this is what he did and so everyone can learn from that and go to the same thing those things don't go anywhere those are those are just um sort of pets on the back that you know they don't they don't mean anything it Um I think I think it's much more um effective uh and applicable and

practical to talk about um what it is that prevents performance um much more than what it is that enhances it I I think knowing what the knot is is a far more effective route than because no one really knows what the is is and so the knots are are actually it's a much more effective route to go what what is that because There's obviously a strand of DNA that separates these worldclass performers from the rest of the world what do they see that the rest of us don't you know I don't I don't think you

know that's once again I very much shy away from the seven habits of Effective People and I just as do I you know yeah I don't so so I don't want to put anyone on a pedestal and say well these guys are great and I just don't uh I don't I think every human being has the Potential to be great and so I don't think anyone should follow anyone or look up to anyone so um first of all I don't think that tour players should be compared against weekend golfers I think that's scraping the bottom

of the barrel that makes no sense why wouldn't you be better than a weekend golfer and weekend golfers are used as scapegoats to make the Tour player look better um so it really is judging within the PJ tour than it is PJ tour versus your 72y old With arthritis I mean what kind of comparison is that I mean if you have to go that low then you must not be very good you know so why would you compare yourself to against the lowest people in ter terms of their ability and their age and so forth

so what is it that makes someone truly exceptional and I think it really comes down to understanding and understanding of how the game is played and understanding of what things are standing in my way That has prevented me from getting to where I want to go I think it's much more about the roadblocks than it is the signs and the arrows saying go this way um so you know if you look at someone like tiger um it there's a lot of things that went into that in in creating a Tiger Woods and it wasn't it

wasn't all x's and o's in fact X's and O's were a you know I would say it's the minority um because others have the same if not Better X's and O's than tiger uh but no one had his results so that means that there must be something else and it's always in the intangible it's always in the Viewpoint it's always in the level of Drive the level of inspiration the the willingness to examine the things that the majority in the culture do not examine um it's always in those types of things it's in the soft

things not in the things that you can categorize and put on a Blackboard uh which is where Society always looks Society is is um the culture of golf is no different than the culture of business uh because it is filled with the same kinds of human beings who are afflicted by the same disorder of looking at the Cosmetic and looking at the form as opposed to looking at the source from which those things arise so like when you talk about when you talk about tiger for example and When you talk about the intangibles I know

that a lot of times that leads back to introspection and it leads back to the mind give me an example of some of these intangibles um you know for instance Ernie ell's once said uh when he was you know I think tiger had won by 15 shots the US Open at at Pebble Beach and they interviewed AR El afterwards and it's a it's a wonderfully illustrative Interview because first of all he was getting hammered by questions and um the grace with which he handled the questions was was very very impressive I mean um some of

the questions were very insulting actually and they shouldn't have been asked that way um but he still hand to handled it with with real real um calmness and and and Grace and and one of the things that he said was um you know this guy shows up every single week to a Tour event and he's at 115% His drive his level of focus his concentration his you know is is off the charts every single week and he said I can't say that about any other Tour player so that's an intangible that isn't that isn't a

swing plane issue that isn't a grip issue that isn't a how far do you hit the ball is issue that isn't a trackman issue right there's no technique there you can't methodize that um uh so that and and the bang for the buck there is Huge to have that Drive is the foundation upon which everything is built so that level of motivation where does it come from right and I well you know well well where does that come from exactly I don't know I don't know where DNA comes from but Tiger's DNA has always been

I I don't want to just win tournaments I want to be the best of all time and that that's always been his Drive where does that come from why did that arise in him and not in another Player I don't I don't know I don't know why we have the DNA that we have um but that's always been his driving force it isn't isn't to win golf tournaments it's been to be the best of all time to be a legend would you put Serena Williams in that category I don't know enough about Serena Williams but

I do know that their upbringing was very interesting you know Richard Williams did a lot of very interesting things and once again he was A real rule breaker he was an outcast he was an anticult sural and you will you will find that thread amongst all greatness it's never been the rule follower it's never been the traditionalist it's always these people who do everything outside the box not letting them play junior tournaments um you know uh when they were when the girls were were young uh playing on a tennis court which in which gunshots were

going on in the background and not Moving the family because uh the gunshots going off in the background would allow them to force them to focus uh and become you know have thicker skin you know a lot of very interesting things a lot of eccentricities there um that are very noteworthy so what do you see the role of coaches Capal with people like that like if they're sitting in a locker room talking to their coach or you know a couple days before a tournament or a match talking to their Coach what are they talking about

you know I I think it's much less you know important or instructive as to what they're talking about as it is to talk about the role of coaching um I think that just like all things you know it depends upon the DNA of the coach and just like there are there is no Tiger Woods besides Tiger Woods there really is no coach like that mhm so um so it isn't about coaching it's about the coach it's about The human and to find a human who completely um shatters the norm who turns his back on everything

who rejects all norms and traditions know those types of humans are very very rare and so it isn't about coaching because that doesn't mean anything that's just regular people with regular DNA going to the seminars wearing their lanyards getting certified and teaching a bunch of crap that isn't coaching that that's that's just means nothing I mean It doesn't matter what they're talking about it's driil you know it's about what is that rare one in a million Tiger Woods type individual you know what is that conversation like that's instructive mhm not what the norm is like

who cares well you're a coach and you're playing a big role in the development of both of your boys who have very ambitious Futures and you're coaching some very prominent very successful Leaders in the world how do you see your role with them it's very different as a parent than it is as um with a client sure and not because it should be but because it is and that's actually a flaw that's a flaw in me and the flaw is that where there is attachment there is interference and so the greatest so so the greatest

role that I can provide is The one that I haven't provided yet um I have done okay but nowhere near the nowhere near Perfection and one approaches Perfection when there is no emotional involvement no desire in me for the student to do well as long as that exists there will be there necessarily must be interference so let's stick with that for a moment and then we'll get to to The leaders where there is a little different of of a relationships your boys are really really close when do you start how do you know the time's

right for you to move closer towards maybe eliminating that interference um I think the interference is always there so the time is always right so so it's about approaching the the state in which everything is on the Player and finding that line as to when to say when not to say and that is not done prescriptively that is done by first reaching the internal place where you need nothing from their performance and so I guess what I'm saying as the words as I'm hearing myself speak is that um the ultimate parenting becomes not being a

parent at all or a coach the ultimate parenting becomes one in Which you divorce yourself from the from the need or the desire for an outcome there must be nothing in it for you I think that is the bar I think that is that is the place of Truth which upon reaching it one does not interfere well for you that the knowing you the way that I've gotten to know you you want the best for them right right that's how do you separate yourself from that that'll always be there I I think I Think it

I think I think it's no parent wants the best for them without without being attached to the pleasure of wanting the best for them right so we don't ever no parent is that pure that they want the best for them only for them and there's nothing in it for them for the parent there's there's always there's always a level of impurity and there's always a level of There's always um as they say you know a fly in the ointment well it's tough to see your kids suffer I well I don't well I'm not talking about

tough I'm not see I don't I don't want to justify it by saying that's okay to be that way because it's tough I'm talking about truth it's all about truth so I don't care if it's tough right I don't want to justify it I don't want to say it's okay it's not okay it it's it is if there is a journey The journey is in getting to the place where you are concerned only with you if you are concerned only with you that actually is the most selfless way to be as ironic as that may

sound because as long as you need someone else to do well you will interfere and you will say well I'm doing it for them and you're not it may be on a fringe level that they're gaining something from it no doubt but you are not doing any You're not doing it for them and so this is a very difficult conversation to have because very few people are at the level of desire to actually want to divorce themselves from the need or the desire to have something in it for them therefore they will go to the

place where you went which is well nobody wants to see their kids suffer and it's very difficult to get to that place and that's only natural and it's human Nature I don't care about any of that stuff that isn't truth that's just copout okay okay and I'm not telling you I'm there I'm actually pointing the finger at me uh live and telling you that that is a source of interference how do you do you ever specifically think about ways that you can help your boys in particular certainly some of the the athletes that you work

with learn how to embrace Pressure the pressure don't put on the 18th I don't I don't know if it's about Embrace that's forced I don't like Embrace and um you know accept verbs are don't sit well with me because it's always prescriptive um it it so why do certain people thrive in the most intense of moments with there's no there there's no why to that some people just do they enjoy it And some people do not the the question only arises when someone comes forward and says that I have a problem and the problem is

that pressure really gets to me then it becomes a something to go into because then the person actually wants to do something about it um so then it becomes relevant so what do you do to coach somebody through that well it's never about the thing Right the thing is never about the thing so the pressure is just the manifestation of something that's going on deeper and so what is it the person feels that they might lose by winning what is it that the person feels that they might lose by losing so the the pressure is

the Billboard but the billboard isn't the truth it's the wires and following the wires all the way back through their Winding source to where they're plugged into um that gives electricity to that billboard that's where the real questions lie and the issue with teachers and instructors and psychologists and coaches is that they they they fall for the problem that they're presented they fall for that trap and therefore they attempt to fix the billboard but the billboard never is the problem the problem that's presented to You is never the problem well you I think there lies

the art of coaching well you talk about it to a lot of sports psychologists and they tell you that dealing with pressure is something that could be taught well do you believe that no no I I don't because you'll never own it that way I think I think what a person needs to learn is not the techniques of how to deal with pressure what he needs to learn is the understanding and the Insight as to why the pressure gets to him and what things are truly at stake that if those things weren't at stake then

the pressure would automatically not get to him well you shared something with me earlier about something that uh about when I asked you a question about your son and you talked about the importance of ownership that when that ownership when that that that real full-fledged ownership is there then you'll start to See the type of progress that you want to see what do you what does that type of ownership look like yeah it's a dangerous word when you just mentioned it nakedly without context because I know where everyone's going to go with that they're going

to jump all over the prescription bandwagon and the Bold type word and say ownership is that you must be you must own and be you know own your actions and be responsible for what you said that's not what we're talking about So let's just short circuit that real quick before that train leades a station uh ownership what we were talking about earlier was we were talking about ball striking and so the the ownership of one's artistic movement in this case striking a golf ball um so the the so to me it needs to be owned

without any chases and something cannot be owned if you attack the mechanics and the technique and use that as the lens through which You look at the movement because as long as you look at the technique and the mechanics of put your arm here then the next step is do this and then don't go across the line don't get laid off when you come back down the hips lead the you know lead the down swing and then you swing left and leave the make sure the club face is square impa you know all those things

and the track mans and the all the nonsense when you chase it that way you chase Forever because you can never own a physical Movement by focusing on the actual physical movement you have to own the things that that you already have which give you Clues as to whether the physical movement is on or off as opposed to a coach standing behind you telling you that they're on or off and if you look at the evidence for that being the truth you have people on the PGA tour who've been Working with a swing coach for

30 years or various different ones well shouldn't you have owned it by now what have you been doing for 30 years so that must mean that must mean that very fact that they that they still need someone to tell them that think something is off and that this is off and that this is off that means that they are relying upon an external agency to guide their physical movement therefore they cannot arrive at Ownership it's like tiger said once tiger said there are only two guys who owned their swing Mo Norman and Ben Hogan and

they woke up every single day this is his quote they woke up every single day knowing that they were going to hit it well now that's a he said that in a way that that's like it's mystical mhm right and and and actually is Mystical in today's form and technique and Method obsessed environment that is Mystical um but that is all that matters it's about putting an end to all the chases and and and and you know and and it also comes down to who you are like like it isn't that anyone needs to listen

to me um this is just not okay with me to not own something but if someone else might say and and the majority actually would say this they would say you know what's wrong if I have to work with a coach and I hire The coach listen I got 20 million in the bank I'll hire a coach down behind me right he's if I if I have a question I put him on speed dial and said hey why my ball going right and left he'll come stand behind me why what's wrong with that and I

would say nothing's wrong with that nothing's wrong with I could never do that that that to me would make me that means I'll never own anything that you know like Nicholas said Nicholas said that he saw his coach once A year and Jack grout never once stepped onto a onto a tournament grounds and because he wanted Jack to be his own coach and that allowed him in the middle of a round in the back on Sunday to be able to fix his own swing well you're not going to have that if you have speed dial

coaches so it depends what's important to you and if that's okay with you then that's okay with you it depends upon the person well that's really intriguing to Me because let's shift gears for a second and talk about how that translates to a leader running a company you coach you may not want to call yourself a coach you work with leaders who are running big companies important companies prominent companies what is your role with them how do you IGN ignite that human Potential from them I don't know I don't I don't know what it is

That I do I just don't know I don't remember conversations I don't remember how how results came about I didn't make any specific result come about the only thing that my allegiance is two is the truth and so the one thing that I can say with absolute certainty the one thing that I do know is that when a human being is exposed to the Truth something fundamental within him begins to change and I don't know how that Alchemy happens but it is an Elixir that is too potent to not have an effect so do you

when do you know is it in the questions they're asking you is it in the dialogue that you guys are having when when do you get a glimpse that that person that you are a confidant to is getting closer to that truth because there's a level of Ownership there too right they have to own it just like we're talking about these professional athletes yeah when they notice that the reactions that they normally had to things are now different without them trying to do anything different that's when you know something has changed something fundamental without any

Practice no practice no Behavior change no implementation of a technique or a method no deep breath no when this happens I will uh walk away and countery nothing nothing when the initial reaction to the thing is fundamentally different than it normally is than than it has been for years without having done a thing that means something in the Viscera has changed and does that mean a heightened level of awareness of themselves is that where a lot of this stuff starts for these leaders I think where a lot of it starts is the movement away from

prescriptive ways of thinking I think that is the greatest uh tectonic shift which occurs in a human being is the movement away from the how well takes a hell of a lot of guts Sometimes especially in business when you receive funding from a you know significant amount of funding you've got people on your board who have achieved the level of success and a claim and who are almost kind of um expecting you to follow follow a certain path because they want to return on their money takes a lot of courage to say no I'm going

to do it a different way it only takes courage if it is acceptable to you to do It the traditional way it doesn't take courage if doing it according to the way within you is non-negotiable see this can't be an intellectual decision then it's courage and then it usually reverts it doesn't last so only when it only when you you can't do it that way and you're willing to be fired not that you should not that that's good not that that's Courageous but for whatever reason you just can't it it it goes against your nature

that's not courageous that's just inevitable do without naming names do you have some examples of some situations with some of the people that you worked with who have been able to to have that level of ownership and have started to to recognize their approach or their reaction to certain things has shifted and what type of impact has that had on Their companies oh absolutely but none of those were orchestrated by me well of course they were you're the one that initiated the dialogue and asked the question no because there was no because I had no

goal in mind sure right but it was you that initiated it because if we were if it wasn't for you you know we may maybe not necessarily the prescriptive approach but we would have continued to do what We would have do and that's the truth well okay but I'm saying it it happened by side effect right it happened as a natural effect of a cause MH it wasn't because I did this I I would I'm the most clueless of all as to what I might have done I don't even know what I said yesterday you

asked me four questions to begin this dialogue I didn't remember any any of them okay so so there's nothing there's nothing Um as you said prescriptive that I did to make that happen because I wasn't even looking for something to happen it's just it's just a it it is just a it is not it is just an exposure to the truth that's what it is it is it isn't that I said this or I but you led me there your questions led me to maybe explore areas or observe certain things that perhaps I was blind

to in the past maybe maybe but even I mean I mean if I may be honest those Things sort of came through me you know they didn't really come from me so I'm I'm very hesitant to take any credit for anything because I because I don't own it it just appears you know so I can't walk around with a billboard saying look what I did um it just came and so if it came that means it came from somewhere else so that's the owner right it wasn't me but but yeah maybe in the in in

the um in the Exchange uh in the dialogue in the examination the exploration that some things came out that as you said make made the person look at it differently and um uh you know made a shift by way of a question absolutely those things do happen and do you see that once that shift and when you recognize it as their Confidant coach whatever when you recognize that somebody's made that shift and have consistently gone to a different approach to handle thing these Things do you see it sustainable is that do I just kind of

live there now yeah that's the difference between prescription and Truth um there are some consistent phrases that I'll hear again and again from people who have experienced this and that is that what I would rather die than go back can be the old way sure and and so the thing about truth is that once you once you Transform you never transform back but in change through Behavior or prescription or therapy you tend to for your for the whole of your life you tend to always live in a in a flux of today I was good

and today wasn't yesterday wasn't so good and you always flux back and forth you change back mhm but when you when you get a glimpse of that truth you feel that resorting back to the old ways is torture compared To living in the space that I'm living right now yes because the only reason that you were doing it the old way to begin with was based upon your level of understanding which resulted in you doing it the old way once you arrive at a new level then that means that your fundamental understanding has changed so

therefore the inevitable way now is the new is the higher level MH you mentioned your you you show up differently because of the relationship With your the the the leaders that you work with obviously as opposed to the boys how do you show up for the CEOs or or Founders Executives that you work with by not showing up so I have a meeting with you in 15 minutes how what are you thinking about you just do you just show up and is it just basically me coming to you with here's a [ __ ] that

I'm dealing with yeah the greatest so-called input that I could provide is Input that does not come directly from my mind it comes something that comes in a channeling speaking in tongues fashion through me that I do not interfere with that is the best way that I can provide Insight so I literally mean that when I say how do I show up by not showing up MH and how and do you help them I mean do you give the people that you're work with working with homework to to oh my God no how could you

even go there never in a million Years so you don't go there homework about go read this book or go think about this or go journal on that don't do that no no no there's no prescriptions there's no activity there's no Behavior there's no practice those are all prescriptive modalities I ities that make you focus upon an activity in the hopes that the execution of that activity will lead to a fundamental change but it will not it Will only make you focus upon the activity itself and therefore you will get better and better at doing

the activity but will not reach the thing for which the activity was prescribed makes a hell of a lot of sense couple questions that I promise some people that ought to ask you um there are a lot of people out there that listen to us who are in the business of selling and that group that seems to always be motivated by a beating last Quarter and last year and that becomes exhausting when you talk to you know Elite salespeople about how do they start to develop or what mindsets they need to get in to develop

a level of sustained Excellence where it isn't the goal it's something bigger what should they be thinking about well they're too focused if that's their approach they're too focused upon selling the other without having first Sold themselves well that's that that's the training that they get right that's the prescription that they well well if it is if it is it's not effective I mean the it's easy to sell something when you know that selling it for any price at all is too low sure and no one gets there or very few get there so it

isn't it isn't about selling to another it is about examining what you really Have what the truth about it really is um and the the place about your product where you are that is the success or the failure in your selling it like give me an example of what you're talking about when you say the place um the the the level of the level to which you are convinced that this thing will do x uh better than anything else or that you can't get it anywhere else Then the selling will arise from there and you

won't have to do much selling MH it'll sell um the the problem is that people don't get to that place and they're not really taught to get to that place and even if they are they're done so prescriptively so it's a non-starter um I mean if you're selling used shoes well I mean it doesn't really matter then because you know it it depends what you have and if what you're selling is a commodity that Everyone in the corner is selling then you will likely be tempted to sell based upon price and that is a Road

to Nowhere that's a road to Poverty um so if you have for in since a restaurant and there are other restaurants who are obviously selling the same type of food that you are then it really then the issue becomes one of marketing and marketing is a very very interesting subject because it is all About the human mind and it is not about once again we return to the same place it is not about technique and method and I wrote a discourse about this not too long ago and I I don't know what it's called the

truth about I saw it what was it called I I I don't remember the exact title but I saw it and shared it with a bunch of that's actually where this question came from okay okay um you know that that's a very fascinating topic uh because it's all About the mind of human beings and not about the 15th things that you can do to get the word out well it's a fascinating topic and you've I've never gone there with you about this idea of marketing right and it's something that maybe at some point um I

think you said something I and I maybe screwing it up it's about why all marketing is a scam or why yes yes something to that yes that sounds about right yes uh it it would be it be a Fascinating conversation that that we could have because that's a whole different topic that is based on a lot of descriptions but two more quick things and and and we can at least pause for this segment and you and I kind of touched hinted on this a little bit when we spoke about earlier this week there are a

lot of leaders out there and I don't know if it comes up with the people that you work with but there are a lot of leaders out there who um are Very Vigilant about working males working with females females working with other females and so forth and so you know so on in this kind of era that we're living in me tooo how do you recommend that male leaders have relationships with female Executives female Executives have relationships with other female Executives um you know in the modern society today what what what is crossing the line

in your opinion I think crossing the line is When one diminishes his native human or her native human capabilities and one diminishes his or her native human capabilities when they begin to view themselves as a him or a her it is about the human and what the human is imbued with as opposed to the limitation that one imposes upon themselves when they view things through the lens of male and female so is that a conversation that you would have with your team let's Assume I have an executive team of 10 people half and half is

that is that one of those non negotiables that we need to establish as a team is to talk to one another as humans and to kind of put our feelings aside I don't think it'll work because it's all about the DNA of the individuals to whom you're speaking you cannot you cannot drop information on top of people like confetti it doesn't work that way um most of the things that I say are not going to be applicable to the vast majority of human beings even though they are fundamentally applicable to all human beings but in

order for something to get into the bloodstream it has to arrive on the doorstep of an individual who has a particular DNA um whose bloodstream is open to such a thing so I'm a leader of a company and I have that DNA because you've been working with me and i' I've made that Shift that you're talking about and I want to have this conversation with my team like that then it's about then it's about you it's not about your team you can sprinkle all the fairy dust on top of your team and they all just

laugh at you they're not going to do anything that you say so the greatest thing that you could do the most effective thing that you could do was for is for you to embe the truth and whatever dealings that you Are in with that that that that shows up through you that's all you can do and it and as long as you focus upon as long as you focus your efforts upon trying to change the mind of another or to make him better or to Enlighten them you are wasting your time because the fact is

there's only so many years that we as humans live and those years are most effectively spent perfecting ourselves and if something is ever going to get across it is going to get across Through osmosis much less than instruction so the byproduct of me perfecting myself is others getting better who are around me if it is going to happen at all that is how it is going to happen it is not because you give a talk all right last thing somebody asked me yesterday what constitutes a great life for Capal so I thought it was a

cool question how do you define a great life or do you no I don't think that the Majority are ready for this but I the great life is which in which one is completely oblivious to himself and what that is the great life that that means that one functions in a way that is organic and natural from a place of non-ego without trying to be egoless to understand that everything that a human being says is filtered through his own personal selfish desires which are based upon the foundation of ego and nothing is pure and to

arrive at The place that everything is done from a place of organic naturalness as a natural effect of a cause without any attachment to the person who is saying it and are you there no how close well I don't know how close but I will say that that is a 247 driving force of my life and the byproduct of that I assume that uh starting with your boys and Everyone around you um it just becomes I mean it just becomes the way to live right it becomes a non-negotiable well it's the only way to truly

live but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone well it's it's uh it's a good Vision to have how about we leave it like that okay thank you sir thank you [Music] I want to talk to you about something that I've been contemplating for a Little while and um I want you to assume with me for a moment that you have a world class College athlete who played college football for a prominent institution and that 21 22y old young man is used to winning in fact the ones I'm thinking about I think probably lost two games

in four years of their career they then get drafted by crappy NFL teams and then they start to lose and then they lose some more and then you see their damn performance tank what Happens well that's I would say that that's person dependent I don't think that always necessarily happens uh so you know I don't think it's a matter of reverse engineering it and assuming that that's the outcome um so it's it's all personal based some people be you know sort of um become that and others uh either don't stand for it or look to

be traded or or or whatever it is and others maybe even Step Up um because Because it's an environment in which uh they're giving given an opening um so I don't I don't think it's I don't think it's Universal that way but team sports provide obviously a many more elements and many more variables than individual sports so I'm thinking about I'm thinking about a couple of NFL teams who have been bad for a long time and they continue to draft because of the draft order of of football these very talented kids from really great schools

I'm Thinking about teams like the Giants and the Jets and the Redskins and and then these team these players show up the teams continue to lose and along with that their performance doesn't you know they're not carrying a team to victories So when you say it's person dependent I get it but does the does the environment have that much effect on these kids because they're contractually bound to that team for a while um you know once again I think It's this is sort of Monday Monday morning quarterbacking you know it's sort of sort of sort

of a well I don't know I think it's more intriguing to actually talk to a person and figure out what's really happening as opposed to saying well naturally if he goes to a losing team he's going to lose and and sort of take that and run with it I think it's much more intriguing to figure out what is really going on inside of a person than it is To make you know so-called uh these judgments and these these Universal um sort of rules so let me let me reframe the question this way if you if

you are working with somebody who is a win in all aspects of life right and he or she goes to a losing environment that that is just known whether it's in sports or business how do you help that person not let the environment pollute her mind well it depends what they want you know everything everyone does you Know everyone is predisposed to doing and pursuing that which is their greatest desire so you don't desire in order to act your actions determine your desires so it's you know it really it it's a multifactorial thing it really

depends upon what the person really wants and I think it's I think it's um shortsighted simply to say well that person's in a losing environment and they want to win it's deeper than that so like give give me an example of it Being deeper than that if I if I'm if I'm a young man and you know I haven't lost but two or three games in four or five years and probably very little in high school and then in my first NFL season I'm going to be part of a team that's going to lose 15

games well I think that when someone first comes into um you know the major leagues so to speak and in the professional side of things it isn't just about winning I mean there's a there's a there's a big Uh learning curve there's a lot of things that that person's trying to get used to and acclimated to and so in any environment uh a person naturally finds his or own Niche and his or own place and it's always related to self-image and when that person settles down in that environment then he will naturally when all the

dust settles he will find out for himself if that's something that he can environment in we can which he can live in which he can flourish or Which he actually succumbs to and that isn't necessarily a conscious decision it really is um based upon the person's DNA and what it is that he truly wants so I don't think it's as black and white as the way that you're posing it if one of those kids were your one of your boys and you know part of the evolution of playing a team sport not that golf isn't

a team sport maybe in college it is but and they go in one of these whether it's NFL or or NHL or or Major League Baseball or something and they go into an environment that you know going in these teams have lost perpetually I don't think it's about winning and losing I think that on some level everything is an individual sport I think it's team from the outside but on the inside and inside the human being it's individual so a person could be on a losing team but that person could Excel and by excelling as

an individual on that losing even even if by Individual that also means that the way that he passes and the way that he makes other players on the team better that's those are still individual skills and traits and so in that sense he increases his brand so I don't I don't think it's just about raising the trophy I I I would say that I would say that the team obfuscates and complicates everything I think really at the end of the day everything is an individual sport well this is a topic that fascinates me and That's

why I wanted to you know when I and I heard a lot of these kids over the weekend knowing you and I were going to connect talk about hey I'm not used to losing I'm not used to losing I'm not used to losing Now you kind ofit that's very that's a very immature and shortsighted View and they are immature and and and it really but but then again they've been taught to be immature I think that if you look at every facet of society um particularly In the world of of of sports it you know

the depth of things is and the Nuance of things just like anywhere else it's never really examined it isn't just about the x's and the O's it isn't just about the winning and losing it is about winning and losing for the coaches it is about winning and losing for the management because at the end of the day what is a professional sports team it's it's a it's a hot dog sale at the end of the day at the end of the day what it is So it's not about it's it's an entertainment so while the

player doesn't view it as that nor should he a player that's his livelihood that's that's his art that's his craft and that's very appropriate to look at it that way but for the people at the top it's it's bottom line so I don't think that the way that they look at it I think it would be a mistake um for the players to look at it the same way that management looks at it So perfect lead into one of your signature insights that I think people who've listened to our conversations get which is the whole

idea and the notion of giving yourself permission to be great ironically that's one of the areas that I get the most questions or the most ahas from people from so when you have somebody who's 22 23 24 whatever who truly feels like he or she can carry a team on their shoulders and can take a losing organization and turn them into a Winning organization what does that DNA look like like what do you look for in somebody where you say hey that person can make a real difference well I guess a quiet sort of confidence

a um a you know it's all the regular things right it's a it's someone who doesn't follow the crowd someone who isn't really there for the socialization um you know someone who is really focused on what they really want it's it's those kind of Things so when when you talk about this idea of permission what does it take for somebody to be truthful about you know what I'm done with the past I truly want to give myself permission to be the best in the world at what I do when when you're talking with somebody do

you feel that that's sincere well would say I would say the question is the opposite the question is what is it that's preventing you what is it that's preventing me yes and not only what is It that's preventing you more specifically what is it that's always prevented you from being world class my mind from well that's that's a nothing answer that that's that's that can be said about anything specifically one it it is not about it is not about you know looking for what it is that one needs it's much more about looking at the

barriers okay so so so so you know you you know very well inside of you right now if I held a Gun to your head I'm not going to play your game I'm not going to buy whatever you say okay that's your mind so when you give the answer my mind that's your mind saying my mind so that we don't have to go any further and I can give you some five-step plan that'll that'll fix everything okay that's what I'm not going to fall for what I am saying to you is right now as we

sit here right now you know exactly the things that are preventing you and you don't want to Look at those things in order to shove those things under the carpet you want to give you want me to give you a camouflage and that camouflage that you're asking from me is a prescription because you are simply looking for anything and any everything that you can occupy yourself with that will prevent you from having to look at the barriers so so let me throw out some of the barriers right and and help me think through it fear

too General you're right Now what you're doing is fishing okay so right now you're tossing me a bone in order to make me think that you are in fact speaking the truth and looking at your barriers so that I will succumb and and say okay that's good enough now I will give you the prescription that you seek so let's talk about fear of failure I I I don't think it's fear of failure I would say it's more maybe fear of success okay let's talk about that so and that goes back to self-image which Is what

you wrote about this week or two weeks ago or whenever and I have some questions about that but yes a person always defaults to his defaults so a person always becomes what he believes himself to be so you can you can Behavior modify whatever you want right you can bring the whole you know coaching gang and the self-improvement Fanatics right and the raw raw motivational speakers and you can hire a big old Hall and you can just fill them With all this motivation and at the end of the day when they walk out of that

Hall they will default by the time they walk to their car and that's why I'm asking so so what I'm what I'm asking what I'm what I'm saying to you is what you will become is who you believe yourself to be what you will become is what you cannot stop yourself from becoming what you will achieve are the things that you cannot help but achieve what you will Accomplish are the things that you cannot live without accomplishing so at the end of the day your story your fate your destiny where you will go it's already

been written and it's been written by who you believe yourself to be so you acting it out is just a formality there's no amount of behavior modification or raw raw that I can fill you with to become the world's greatest if your self-image and your DNA is not that of someone who Must be great who must be the greatest in the world who when I put a GoPro on with follows him around the house every single day that that I become convinced by all the things that he does that are very convincing to anyone who

watches the video footage that this person is completely obsessed by becoming that so everything in your life is already written and you don't have to look at that from the standpoint of Fate but from the standpoint of who you are on The inside that is who you will become so what's the process then so one of the things that you talk about in in uh the discourse that you write about self-image is that most of us are never enough in our own eyes no no no one no one is enough in their own eyes when

you when you view yourself as a personality when you view yourself as this self called John or Joe you cannot be enough you can raw raw yourself into believing that but you won't genuinely believe it So where does that deficiency come from that well the self can never be whole you will always have deficiencies you will always have insecurities you will always have fears a person a person who is conscious of hisself such as self-consciousness is a person who will always have insecurities about that self so a person is at his best when he isn't

aware of himself so when he is playing a sport or or an instrument or whatever it Is for a brief period of time when he loses his concept of self and he is completely lost in that art he is at his best and at that moment he has no deficiencies and the reason that he doesn't is because at that moment he has no self so you can't you can't Band-Aid a self enough to make it whole and this is why the self-improvement and the self-development and the spirituality and the motivation that's why all of These

multi-billion dollar Industries are all founded upon a completely false concept therefore it's a house of cards it is do you personally have days where your your mind is just a constant stream of negative thoughts well negative versus positive is irrelevant um most of if you if you but why is it irrelevant aren't don't don't you feel there's some thoughts that are more negative than they are positive so When you go outside and you go to a landfill is there some garbage that's that's more clean than other garbage probably not no there there isn't muddy garbage

there in human feces and then other garbage which is relatively clean and like a like a nice perfectly clean bottle that's empty maybe okay the same thing with thoughts so if you would never go to a landfill and compare cleanliness versus dirt then it's the same thing with the thoughts Human beings believe that the mind and the intellect are something to be proud of and this false notion is what they're fed by Society so you don't you don't think that it it doesn't matter what I think it only the only no no the the only

significance here is that you are convinced of the opposite and that isn't right or wrong I'm really not convinced of the opposite but that's so that's why I asked the question so when so maybe I should take the negative stream out of It and just say a constant stream of thoughts maybe an AB normal amount mind the mind is a the mind is a barking dog mhm when that dog doesn't stop barking during the course of an hour or two hours like what do you do nothing you're not going to stop the Mind from barking

and if you try to you'll be basically trying to bail water out of a sinking boat with a teacup for the rest of your life cuz the only reason that you're trying to stop the Mind from barking is A reason why it's barking in the first place mhm did do you no did you understand that I do that's why I hesitated yeah okay wh what did you understand there I understood that the the that the moment that I put my conscious effort to to stopping whatever is going on in my mind right whether it's negative

or positive that's the actual that that whole recognition and movement towards trying to change something is what's causing it when I Should just ignore it just move on so no well you just totally destroyed it when you said just ignore it and move on because that itself is an action and that will lead you right back like a U-turn to the Mind mhm so the only reason that someone wants to stop the Mind from barking is because they wish to feel the pleasure of Peace the reason that the mind is barking in the first place

is because they wish to fulfill the pleasure of Desire so the the the search for Happ happiness and pleasure is the most fruitless search of a human life and it is the single most critical reason why a human being lives in suffering because we're searching forap for constantly trying to seek happiness well you don't even have to be constant but yes but you're right it is constant happiness and pleasure MH both the same yep and away from the other the the opposite sure the fear and all of that yes a Chase for pleasure and an

aversion for pain and and if you hear that and you think to your the moment that you think to yourself that yes I must stop doing that you're you're done because you're doing it again because the only reason that you would even want to stop searching for pleasure and stop running from pain is because you want happiness you want you want once again the same thing when you think about self when you wrote About the the beautiful discourse that you wrote about self-image did you consider your own self-image at all when you were writing oh

how do we know about the world how do we know about any human being we know it through ourself mhm so the person who examines himself to the utmost agree is the person who knows all human beings so can you give me a contrast between between what capil gupta's self-image was 10 years ago and perhaps what it is now well I don't Think it's a matter of uh comparing self-images I think it's much more a what matures over time is seriousness and sincerity and as we grow older we begin to see the the Folly of

things depending upon how one is wired uh we begin to see the foolishness and the silliness of of the things that happen in life and um you know moving through life and all the events that happen in life and how we Think about things and so as we begin to look into those things and see the the foolishness of it and to see the holes and the falsehoods of them then we begin to or at least I begin to examine the nature of the self so it wasn't about me having a better self it was

examining into the nature of what a human being really is and what are the source of all problems um so it it's it's much more a movement away from self in the in the direction of you know this is going to Come out the wrong way but selflessness but has nothing to do with what you believe to be selflessness because there's nothing but self in selflessness in the in the in the traditional meaning of selflessness and are you are you at a point now where there is no self-image you know it's really yeah I mean

it's a it's a fair question but I think that for me even to answer it would be to fall for a trap Because if I was it isn't a trap no no no no it isn't you you aren't posing it as a trap but is it is a trap for me to walk into it because if I say yes I have no self you know that is a contradiction in terms so let us just be sincere and honest and leave it at I am devoted to examining the falsehoods of the self and to see the

outer boundaries of those falsehoods in order to discover truth and then when When that happens is that when the dependency on others and the dependency on your team and society and all just doesn't you don't give a damn about it anymore I think I think I think when you begin to see through things and you begin to see around corners and you begin to see the falsehood in things that you used to believe were true um then the things that you see as false automatically Begin to Fall Away there is no added step of making

them Fall away so there is no real Detachment it is that when you see that something is false um One automatically disengages not by any conscious effort but just because it's false and the second that it's noted to be false and one deeply seeks truth then the disengagement happens all by itself so everything happens by itself anything that you must do by volition and and intentional effort and interference um is is false so you don't Call the work that you're doing on yourself effort like you ask yourself absolutely not absolutely not it's it's sort of

it's sort of like moving through a jungle um and you're not trying to build anything you're simply looking at the jungle You're simply trying to figure out um how the jungle is arranged and um if these trees are real or not and if you pass your hand through the trunk does your hand pass through or does it get Caught on the trunk so it really is an examination and exploration which is completely and utterly not prescrip prescriptive is not a conscious observing or an intentional I will watch my thoughts all those things are a complete

moving towards prescription and moving away from truth so absolutely not I would not call it effort I would not call it practice by any means do you consciously sit down every day and no I don't consciously do anything it's just Where I live like if you if you live in Los Angeles do you consciously try to live in Los Angeles every day it's just where you live it's where you it's it's it's it's your home there's never it's never not there there's no I will take time out from my schedule now to sit there's there

is no schedule this is all that exists for me and that and and there's no reason I I mean I even hesitate saying that because there's no reason to like think that's great or Anything it's nothing it's we are you know I'm not a good person because I happen to be um devoted to discovering the truth about life that wasn't my choice but I know a whole lot of people who follow you who would like to discover that truth who look at it as really hard work maybe that's the problem well that is the problem

but looking at that being the problem is also the problem because as soon as you say that's the problem then you're going To try to move away from that problem and as soon as you do you run into a wall so what's a better way to look at it well is to be genuine is is to is to understand that you you will never go anywhere else but where you are you want to be here or you're you're standing here and you want to be over there well the only way to get over there is

by understanding where you first are and human beings are not taught that they are taught to run over there and to do This this this and this to get over there well the more they do this this this and this it just gets them to this this this and this so whereever wherever you go you can only go from where you are yeah and I guess people have to really understand that so they so they can go there I get asked a lot about your private discourses and and the difference between what you share with

the public and what you share privately and the point is are you Approaching different topics with your private discourses or are you approaching the same do topics from a deeper perspective well the topics I uh write about in the private discour is I I publish the title and maybe even an excerpt sometimes um on Twitter so they're there for everyone to see uh um at least the title is or the expert exert but I I don't like there's no you know a a constant exposure to Truth for Whoever we are a constant exposure to truth

or to untruth mhm that that is what seeps into you and so it really is about what you are exposed taking that to another level it is what you are exposed to inside yourself so the sincerity within yourself as for the search that you are on that is the thing which speaks to you and it's not good or bad so you are constantly exposed to that search whatever your search is And that's what shapes you that's where you live so whatever I write about it is a a completely speaking in tongues um sort of you

know so-called Flow State sort of writing of no mind which comes about a topic which just comes through the page um there's no like system to it and do you finish close the book and it or do you go back and relook at some of the things that you've done no as soon as well I mean in many ways I'm not the one who writes it It just gets written through my fingers somehow and so um when it's written it goes out is there a sense when you make a decision whether it's a decision to

publish something or whether it's a decision about your life or your business when do you know you've made a really good decision that's a very good question I I don't think it's about having the decision be very good I don't think that there is a right or wrong decision about anything I think it I Think it really is where do you want to go and is what is is the motivation behind what you did in line with where you want to go so if for instance you're genuinely seeking truth then you will genuinely have your

motivations be aligned with publishing that which comes from your bones um without being interfered with by uh you know anything that is that is that is not truth so not not not tainted by for instance if I was to go back and Edit things to make them sound better you know that would that would destroy the that would destroy what it is that I'm most seeking which is to truly genuinely allow the deepest things to come out um uh untouched and raw uh so that so that frankly I may learn um so I think it's

much more about the alignment of that as opposed to the alignment of your decisions with right or wrong or good or bad so when you're working with leaders and they've got big Decisions that they've got to make and they ask you for advice it's all does it all do you take them in that direction to help them see that it's not about right or wrong because sometimes that could mean somebody's livelihood oh sure absolutely it's always about that it's always about taking them in the direction of Truth taking them in the direction of what is

it that you really want and what is it um it's never about drawing a line down the page and putting You know positives and negatives uh it are benefits and losses and it's never about that you know a lot of times most times maybe even always people have already decided without deciding something within them has already decided and a lot of times they ask just for permission they're not asking because they want to know what to do and and it's really uh it it would be untruth for me to say that if someone's a fork

in the road and they ask me which Way should I go um it is it's completely disingenuous to for me to say go that way it makes no sense that isn't a genuine decision we are in many ways chosen we don't really choose yeah I totally believe that but I do that sometimes with you even in these conversations I do that I probably have a sense of one way or the other but it is gratifying if you get valid validation how about I leave it like that what what is that telling you about Somebody who

tells you hey I'm your validation means something to me that means that the person is looking for happiness and ego and self-image and does it say anything about the what what what is your validation have anything to do with anything that that's just that's just an ego boost it's a it's validation because it's you're somebody that I trust you're somebody that I respect okay let's say that let's say that you're you made a decision to do X and Then you asked me what do you think and I said yes that was a great decision so

what what does that by you aside from a very short blip on the screen of Good Feeling of satisfaction or whatever it is that's going to be gone by by dinner time so everything is irrelevant do you understand see every nothing means anything so what that you feel good that that has that has no relevance and the reason that it didn't the reason that has no relevance at all is because it's It's it's like wind passing in the night it doesn't last it doesn't stick around so at the end of the day it's yet another

clever example of seeking pleasure reinforcing self-image so every all things in a human life come back down to that it's just like in business everything sooner or later returns to money true and the same thing with human beings everything sooner or later returns to happiness and self-image have you ever consulted anybody when you were Faced with a really tough decision a friend family member you know here's my honest answer to you in in time has pasted I have and as I was doing it I knew it was for entertainment purposes only so I assume now

you don't I if the more the more critical the more critical the decision the Less Reason there is to consult someone because that's when it needs to be the most pure the decision that doesn't mean anything you can consult all you want because it doesn't Matter so once again the truth everything is opposite yeah of course everybody who listens to you knows that now um you said something in in in this thing about self-image because you brought it up here a couple of times that a man doesn't improve himself he only improves his self-image is

that the constant race that you see a lot of the people in the world doing is everybody trying to just is everything about that nowadays well how could it not be if This is if this is all that one knows how could it be about anything else so is the truth to to to be immune from that no the the the the truth the truth lies in Desiring to know the truth and that can't be a recommendation there are I everything for good or for bad it just goes back to DNA it just does and

it's not genetic DNA it's just how someone is wired everything always goes back to DNA who a person who is a chaser and is Always seeking happiness and has no interest in really um diving deep into find the core of the issue and that that has revealed itself in all domains of his life which it always does who you are always reveals itself um that person is going to die like that he just is there's nothing that can be done your fate is sealed by your DNA now and even if you come to the point

where you have an epiphany or a Realization that you truly want to walk that path of truth and you never have before that also is DNA the DNA and the seed of that DNA of seeking the truth or having the Epiphany even that existed you are not going to change who you are and self-improvement is a complete shame I with you on that but when you talk about you're not going to improve who you are or change who you are yes that is not a mess for a lot of that that is not a message

that anyone wants to hear And uh quite frankly I'm not here to please anyone you don't need the last person you should believe is me look at the evidence look at the obituaries it happens every single day it's been happening for Millennia you don't need to look at me and ask me what the weather is when you can open the window and look outside so what what is why is there a reason to live if I know that I'm not going to be able to change myself that's a person that that's a Question that you

should be asking yourself but you have to have the DNA to even even ask yourself that question right now you aren't asking that question you're asking it out of out of uh out of a sense of outrage it isn't real no it really isn't out of a sense of respect I think it it's it when a person who has the DNA will look in his in in his mirror and he will not ask that question out of outrage he'll ask that question sincerely it is precis That person who actually will seek truth not because he

should but because he can't help it and and if you examine his life and if you examine his schooling years and if you examine um previous jobs that he's had you will always see seeds of that you will never see some wholesale brand new spontaneous personality the seeds of who someone is have always been there like if you look at a writer the person's always been a writer even when they were small they Used to just write on on the back of you know gum wrappers it's the who you are has always been there so

so I'm like I said I'm not here to to to ease the pain I have no interest I don't even want to talk to anybody most of what I write isn't for anyone to be honest with you quite frankly I don't know why anybody at all would read what I write there's no positivity or negativity or actually you might assume it's negative if you buy the positive Negative but it doesn't but but it doesn't matter that it's truth the only person who would be interested in the truth is the one who is genuinely seeking it

the person who isn't interested in truth he is seeking positivity and happiness and that is that is almost everyone so I'm not sure why I have more than one follower on Twitter it makes no sense to me and and the followers go up I there's no one who's even who's more shocked than I am Why are you reading what I'm writing it has it is it is the most is Armageddon almost right it's it's telling you that you are going to be the way you are forever you're never going to get better self-improvement is a

scam you know you're going to die why why would you why would you listen to that right why wouldn't you put on a motivational speaker or you know or put on nice you know do Lama and listen to happiness and and chanting and you know and quite Frankly most do so so when you ask me this question why are we even here what's the point of even living well what do you want me to say it is what it is so either you ask that question out of sincerity because you have the DNA to do

so and you ask yourself or if you ask me I'm just going to respond with silence what do you want me to say again we the people who do follow you and I and I know that I speak for the ones that I know not only appreciate what you Say but I think the most important thing is it challenges the way they look at the world it challenges the way they look at themselves whether they choose to seek truth or have the DNA to seek truth or not that's for them to decide but that's why

at least a core group of people that I talk to consistently about you and what you do in your work that's kind of the thing that comes up so let me look at it from this perspective I understand the DNA let's take take a Group of kids who were in from from however way we want to frame it underprivileged they don't have access to this stuff yet somebody wants to give them a chance and wants to expose them that hey you're young you're talented whether or not you have the DNA here's here's a an approach

to see the world look at the world from truth don't look at the world from all the things that you hear would you look at something like that And a group of kids like that for example as having the remotest of possibilities to change to seek truth well well I don't think it would be a change I think it would be there you would be pouring water on some seeds that might already exist okay so the answer to your question is absolutely okay how should I start to feed them because I have a group like

that how should I start to to to water those seeds you're not going to be able to do It can we expose them to some of the work that you do in little tiny glimpses or or or have them I I have feed them some of the discourses and some of them look at me and say hey wow this is amazing but you know feed me what do I do next so the more serious that someone is um keep in mind they're kids I think they're all under 17 or 16 or something like that the

more serious that someone is in guiding someone the less they will preach to Them H um the more serious someone is the less they will answer their questions because all questions will come in the form of prescription because everyone is everyone is brainwashed by Society into asking for prescriptions so if someone asks me questions even in the in the private consult I I don't answer a lot of times I just remain silent because there's nothing I can say I'm not going to buy into the question if I say yes then that'll take you down this

Road if I say no it'll take you down that road and both roads will lead to the same hell so the only answer is way for somebody to frame a question where you don't go that path or is there a way that no because now you're talking about trickery right now you're talking about is there a way to manufacture a question you know what I'm saying is you know a genuine question when you hear it and and so as for for you know helping your Group of kids I will honestly say that the watering of

the seeds will come through exposure to truth without trying to teach them to preach them or to answer their questions and and when because the you know people who read my work it isn't about me so there's some form of alchemy that happens between the words and with whatever happens to lie inside of them so it's between those two elements and when that happens it happens There there's nothing for me to say right so it is about it is about an exposure to the type of water that they might have the seeds for all right

so let me leave that one there and let me just ask you two more quick things are there any questions in particular that you're contemplating right now and that you're writing about that perhaps you haven't published there's all there's so much stuff I don't I don't know where to to begin I Mean it it I don't know there it's just one this week that that no it's never to of M it's never like that it's never a menu it's it's it's everything is spontaneous so whatever comes on the private discourse it just spontaneously arose it

wasn't something that I planned to do the question the questions are whatever they are they're always relating to the truth what is the truth about this situation what is the truth About arriving at this what is you know it's always it's always about an arrival it's always about getting to the complete indivisible nucleus of of the cell so when a question like that arises and you don't have to give me the question do you just start to write or do you sit on it I I write when things um arise and there's um there's a

desire to explore it and the writing is the exploration and the desire to explore opens the Gates and the words come and then once that's done do you revisit a a similar exploration or once you do it once that's it no there's no rules it's it's whatever it's whatever arises mhm um last question you wrote a discourse about nothing what is the word word nothing mean to you do you even remember you know definitions don't go anywhere I I vaguely remember I think it was called a discourse about nothing about nothing I have no idea

what it was about I have No clue I don't remember I don't remember anything about the discourse but I do remember the title it had something to do with us posting photos on Twitter and Instagram and we're selling ourselves and all of that and that to you is nothing but as I read it I started to think is there's something to the word nothing to you you know I would say that it's about seeing once again not not forcing it upon yourself but it's genuinely about seeing the Emptiness of all things and that nothing has

any significance uh the ultimate truth which will benefit no human being except maybe one and they probably wen't even listen to this podcast um the ultimate truth is that there is nothing there is no no greater truth than that and and no intellect in the world so rules don't matter will ever be able to decipher that no nothing matters no there's nothing nothing you Know everything operates according to its own Rhythm everything operates according to its own cause and effect and any attempt to interrupt that Rhythm and any attempt to modify the effect that was

naturally occurring by a particular cause is a road to suffering pain anxiety and failure so it is about understanding things and it is about seeing what the rhythms are and what the patterns are um instead of and you know a leaf rides on the surface of the river And in doing so it assumes the power of the river see that's intelligence that that's that's wisdom more than intelligence and that's nature following its rhythms so it isn't about you know human beings are have this hammer and nail and this Brute Force mentality whereas wisdom is much

more along the along the lines of a willow tree uh it's it's really going with the wind and it's really harnessing the wind as opposed to fighting it I think that type of Sensibility is one that arrives to truth and do you feel it when if that one person are probably not listeners to this podcast or that one person is around you do you feel that when there do you feel that sense of authenticity and sincerity when they're getting to that point well you don't have to get to that point you can tell one's DNA

um by the things that they say it's very very very rare to encounter a person with rare de DNA and And I don't mean just that a person is really good at golf or very good at I mean those are that's there's many of those I mean but I'm talking about a person who is genuinely a a rare a rarity with regard to how he dissects things how he views things um being completely opposite of how the way everyone else does it it's very rare to run into that when you do it's exhilarating because you

have found you know you found a unicorn any have you Met anybody lately who kind of had that impact on you no no I I I I haven't but what what often times happens is that someone will write something and it will be promising that they might be a that type of individual and then a few paragraphs later they'll sadly deflate and um if only they could have kept going so to speak you know if only the you know it's sort of like reading a you know a person who writes a book and they write

something and you say oh wow this This you know this person may be going along the lines of Truth and then within a page they they just they they sell their soul within a page well here's the five-step plan I was just waiting for for it right as soon as you did that you you just fell you know the the the the roof caved in the floor fell out and everything went to hell you you were you were doing so well right you were you were showing such promise you could have been the one but

then you sold out you Showed your true colors and now you have removed yourself from the as as a candidate of the rare one the people who tell the truth the people who are like some of these ancient um very ancient like Zen Masters who couldn't give two cents whether you understood didn't understand couldn't care less they just spoke the truth and that is something that is that quite frankly it is it is beautiful it would be to see someone like that and Encounter them cuz I could talk to them day and night I know

you can that that kind of person but you just everyone's you know institutionalized by Society Mo and and when you read do you still read things from people like that you know I really don't read much anymore but if I do pick up a book yes it is along the lines of some of those rare um writings of you know titles of of a you know the title of a book which would almost sounds Absurd um but that's those are the kind of things that if I am to read that I that I would pick

up but you reading for me is um you know it nothing reveals the truth you know uh believe me if someone if someone talked about the direct truth about things and didn't prescribe I would read all their books I believe me I would I I I would I would long for such things but it just doesn't you're just you know I I live in I live in the wrong era I guess well yeah for sure Right you live in a different how about how about we leave it like that right you live in a different

era well the things that I'm interested the things that I'm interested in um are are so are so completely you know way out there and so anti everything this is like a you know I look outside the window and I see this is just this plastic Society in which I'm just just been placed here in this in this in this this purgatory and it's You know it's like there's there's no sense of belonging to to this every the music that I hear and the words that are spoken and the the culture of sports and business

and life and the neon lights and the news and the televisions and the radio I don't listen to the television I don't listen to the radio I you know I I live this monk likee existence in you know like a hermit but staying away from everything it's almost like a you know it's almost like water boarding in a way It's it's it's your you're placed into an environment to which you do not fundamentally and intrinsically belong but you still have to water the seeds that are your two young boys cuz I know they're your pride

and joy right like do you th those things get get those seeds get watered by by them just observing you I don't think it's about them observing anything that's those seeds get watered when you yourself are genuinely a Non-prescriptive on a search for truth about you and your own life and whatever if anything's going to get watered it's going to get watered through sincerity and genuiness it's not going to get watered uh through prescriptions and teaching and advice and all of these things you always you never ever I'm curious is this time of year any

different for you than than any other like do you do anything out of the Ordinary no no do you ever do you ever take a step back and reflect or set goals or and I know you laugh at people who do these resolutions but is that part of your life at all no so how how do you think about the future to me 365 thing that isn't a new year thing I mean to evalue you know to evaluate the essence of things it um it isn't According to some calendar year made by man you know

that's that's that's my whole life I I Know it is so how do you how do you think about the future or do you well the future is created by the present and so the the more definitively uh you can discover things now then that takes care of the future so you're not sitting there thinking you know in the next 12 months here's the two or three areas of improvement that I want to get really I get better at improve Improvement and betterness is a it's a falsehood that's that doesn't go Anywhere and that's just

circles I have no interest in improving or getting better at anything there's only an arrival either you're there or you're not wherever that there happens to be for you there's no intermediary there's no middle ground there's no there's no progress chart was there a particular arrival in the past year or so that uh you felt like you achieved no I don't I don't look at Things that way to me it to me it's just the ultimate arrival you know I'm not looking for small goals and small milestones and and and those kind of things it

it you know it's very hard to answer questions about what I do cuz I don't know what I do and I don't remember what I did and there's no there's no like there's no like plan you know it's just a it's just a full force um unrelenting deep dive into the truth About things uh there there's no step bystep thing and by this date I want to achieve this the I don't really have much interest in those things achievements and all these things well I think that that I I I wasn't joking when I said

I think at some point it'd be fascinating to have one of these streaming services just have a camera around you 24/7 and do a documentary to figure out how the hell they get in your head uh but we'll save that for another Day uh I want to reflect on I want to take some time and reflect on some issues that I learned from people who listen to our podcasts this year and I want to dig a little deeper in areas that I think our listeners are most interested in there seems to be a lot of

misunderstanding about a truth or the truth what the truth really is I know it's personal for each of us when do you know that you found it well it's a feeling you know you found it it's a Feeling and you know the truth isn't isn't it's it isn't a a a fact or a nugget that you go out to find it is everyone is suffering through various things everyone is pursuing various things in their life and the things that mean most to them whatever it may be be it their profession or be it in their

personal life or be it uh anxiety or or becoming world number one in whatever it may be and and each of those things has a truth It has a truth that is indivisible incontrovertible it is hard rock basement truth um The Source from which that anxiety let's say arises or the source from which that world number one comes from there's a truth and if it isn't a truth it's a Chase so that's what truth means that there there is there is a there is a way and the way is never a method I I I

hesitate to use the word way because People people misconstrue that um a way isn't a method it it means that there is literally a truth as to the way to get somewhere but that is never meth methodological or or technique based uh or prescriptive so it is about hunting for what is the real truth about where I want to go what the source of my wanting to go there is is it pure is it not what is the truth of whether I chase Purity as a prescription to follow or if I am chasing Purity because

Purity Is really really connects deeply with me there's a truth behind all those things there's an honesty there is a genuiness that's what is meant by truth truth isn't about discovering a bunch of of facts or a bunch of knowledge it is it is a wholehearted uh pursuit of the essence and the true cause of the effect that one seeks and is that are you regardless of what it is that people are seeking Whether it is like you said to be world number one or to to to be the best leader that they can are

we talking about really understanding What It Takes by drilling deep in asking ourselves questions to and that's when that feeling is going to arise sure well well but first part yes second part no the first part about asking questions and really examining the source of one's desires yes but then you said is that how the feeling is going to arise well As soon as you ask that question now it becomes prescriptive because now what you're saying is I got if I if I do that then I'm promised that a feeling will arrive so let me

do that and then wait by the phone and then hope for the feeling that doesn't work that way so that's where everything falls apart is if you're doing it to get something um it it the the pursuit is the reward not and I don't mean the journey is a reward it's not What I mean the the because the pursuit is to get somewhere the pursuit isn't just to go on the pursuit the pursuit is to get somewhere and to arrive uh so that is its reward because one one will find it if that Pursuit is

pure so but it isn't that okay so if I do this then then I've been promised that a feeling is going to arrive well that's that just falls apart so for truth is to to become world number one and I do get to that arrival right does the question now Become what do I do to stay there to sustain that Excellence it depends it depends what resonates with someone you know for one person it may be that I just want to get there and now having got here that's it that's what I wanted to do

in my life and now I've achieved it um for another person it might be well I want to I want to become the greatest of all time I want to remain in this spot forever so whatever whatever speaks to someone then that dictates Where they go from there and it's continual self-examination is that what we're talking about it's a dangerous word I mean I'm I'm hesitant of any person mentioning any word because I know where they're coming from they're always coming from a prescription and so I would say no no self-examination cuz I know I

know what you mean by that you know if if if there was a person in front of me who who I had completely understood and it was it was Undeniably clear MH that his was the genuine search for truth he's the real deal he's all in he is totally devoted his he has devoted his life to it and if that was clear then that person can use self-awareness he can use whatever word he wants and he won't be in trouble cuz I know where he's coming from but anyone else I know know where they're coming

from they're coming from prescription So my answer is no even though it's the exact same word I know the spirit in Which the question is being asked therefore the answer is no so but I get it so let's assume it's that person let me let me say one more thing for instance for instance imagine there's a there's a monk in Tibet who wants to live in a cave and it's 40 below right M and and he wants to remain warm in that environment well he can cultivate Tumo okay so Tumo was a type of meditation

in which you can generate internal heat sure now so if that person given given What his desire is that it's that okay it's very practical it's very here and now I'm I'm in the mountains I'm in a cave and I'm going to do meditation to develop Tumo to increase my body heat so I can survive fine that person can use the word meditation all day long I have no problem if anybody else uses meditation the answer is no before they I know where they're going I know where they're going they're doing their 20 minutes a

day crap and I know it's Nonsense so so no so you can't use that word I mean for me that's complete false I know where you're coming from and it's nonsense okay so so so let me so let let me take it this way then because we've also talked a lot about and you write a lot about understanding right before any of us are able to rise above anything or to get to that level we must first gain that depth of understanding and that starts with the kinds of questions we're asking ourselves to get there

give me a Sense of the type of questions that that person sitting in front of you who got to to that world number one what type of question should he be asking himself what what is it that I have not realized what what what is a chase that I am going going on that I have not recognized is a fruitless Chase those are questions that human beings do not ask no they don't yeah they don't they they ask how do I get there what is the Quickest way to um to follow my dream what is

the five-step plan to this what is a good methodology to do this do you have any techniques that I could do this how do I come about how do I stop thinking is just nonsense questions yeah absolutely especially espe this time of year yes well it doesn't well yeah but they're all yeah this time of the year in fact in that sense New Year is a total waste because it makes people go on more chases of New Year resolutions yeah I I I absolutely see that so when we when we're at that stage right and

and some people call call it no mind you've written about the state of no mind and so forth I know the way that you understand it or that you've help me understand it is that to get to that no mind State there you have to go through the proper channels or it has to come through you is that the heart is that what you're talking is that another Feeling that that one of us gets when we're at that St let's talk about the truth what is the truth why do you want to get to know

mind that's more of a truth the reason that most want to get to no mind is because they want to experience the wonderful experience of no mind it's a Chase or get rid of the [ __ ] that goes on in my mind 247 that's a Chase Too you're not going to outrun those things so the only people that only reason they want these things is because they chase experiences they want to have the lovely experience of a spiritual experience in where there's no thought and their conscious and all is one and beautiful love love

love and they're all full of crap that is not real that is not genuine that is not that is not true no mind is a natural side effect and I Hesitate about any person who comes and asks me how do I get to know mind it's like asking me how do I make a million dollars it's a Chase mhm therefore it's not worthy of a response so you don't see it as a worthy as a worthy Journey for somebody to to try to at least minimize the crap that goes on in their mind no no

minimizing is useless either you're going to get there or you're not I'm not interested in help or betterment or I'm a little Bit better than this than I was last year I'm a little less angry now I'm not saying that people should look at it that way I'm just telling you the way that I look at it I have no interest in self-help I view things as either it's ultimate or it's nothing if if if I can't have it permanently I don't want it yeah so and and you and I have talked about that before

we've talked about the fact that hey you take an athlete for Example you know who's who's thrives in pressure situations whether it's 18th green on a Sunday afternoon or whatever um is that person completely detached or disidentified from their mind is that what they're is that how they're approaching that last shot on that 18th green or do you not look at it that way um no I mean it's true that athletes you know they fall into so-called Zone they they do fall into those things and you know no mind states do find people and Most

people have experienced them MH um so what's the question the the question isn't um how do you do you not see that as as is that is that not considered in that no mind zone is that not in the thinking zone I'm just in there and I'm going to just you know I I am completely detached from my thinking I'm focused on this part no no because you can't talk someone into it you have to understand what makes the Mind go in the circles that it does and you have to understand why the Mind speaks

and you have to understand how the mind reacts in particular situations um what excites it what subdues it and in order to understand these things uh you have to be of the DNA to want to devote yourself to truly learning about them so that you can um you can arrive in those places on demand It Isn't So performance is not not about helping someone perform that That I think that's a fundamental uh falsehood of a Pursuit and that's where everyone goes wrong they try to help someone form better that is not the point because that's

just Band-Aids it isn't about helping someone perform better it is about understanding the source of performance it's about understanding the patterns of the mind it is a deep dive into the truth About where these things arise from it isn't about what things can we manipulate what thoughts can I place into your head that might boost your performance who cares that's such a menial Pursuit it's about ownership it's about arriving so when when so so you just triggered something I mean obviously as human beings we all have limitations and those are the things that we're continually

examining is there I mean For you personally what do you do to determine the ones that are that are most standing in your way so if I'm asking myself a question what is preventing me from moving from number three to number one you know it's probably a whole bunch of things is there an approach for you to think about hey let me tackle this thing first um first of all that that's a question that people don't really ask what is Preventing me they usually ask the opposite of how do I you've taught me well okay

so what is preventing the person is a lack of sufficient examination into what is preventing him that's what is preventing him so can you give me an example well for instance um there's fear in becoming world number one for instance that could be one of the one of the barriers mhm see there's in not in Looking for the method one becomes blind to the way and one becomes blind to the way because in looking for the method he becomes blind to the things that are standing in his way so what prevents someone from going from

here to there isn't that he doesn't know how it is that he is being blocked from getting there so it is about removing the Blockages not creating a technique part of moving that blockages is that learning how to or becoming um attuned to some of the things that we attached to no learning the blockages is seeing the blockages so fear as an example is that what you're talking about seeing the block whatever the block happens to be mhm seeing the blockages one has to be looking for the blockages and that's part of the whole Questioning

process yeah that's the direction in which the truth is found it's not it's not found in the direction of How It's found it's found in the direction of why am I not it's found in that direction it's not found in the direction of how do I when you talk about Legend Andor Legends um I know it's about sincerity I know it's about you know Purity and devotion but in your eyes what makes one the desire to become one and just can it just that constant quest to become one well it doesn't have to be constant

it's got to be deep where one goes is a function of How Deeply he longs to get there and how serious he is to getting there everything else is secondary Mhm and then I know you don't give him any answers right but but when when that conversation continues and you can see that they're really dead serious about that Pursuit Of Legendary do you just have what do you do to help them start to formulate that thinking in order to to try to get closer to that there's no doing it's whatever happens happens spontaneously whatever one

is ready to hear he will hear when he's ready to hear it And I will speak it when I feel like he's ready to hear it there I I don't I don't dump the kitchen sink because it's useless to do so it's a person has to be ready to hear a certain level of Truth otherwise it'll short circuit your brain literally it does people um you know truth can be harmful to your health I mean and especially your no I mean that because because I don't sugarcoat things you know I State truths raw um and

I I I mean that most Literally I mean there can be an adverse effect to knowing a truth that you are not ready to hear on a biological level I mean it literally people have very significant reactions to these things um um partly because something inside of them recognizes that it's true but their mind um is not ready to hear that and therefore there takes PL place an sort of an an an internal combustion and an internal War takes place yeah well You've shared a bunch with me personally and I've we've acknowledged it here on

this podcast capil does it surprise you that the overwhelming majority of people don't know what they genuinely want no why would they what what causes that well I mean if if you're work if you work let's say that you work so let's say that you're awake from 700 a.m. to let's say 9:00 p.m. right so you're awake for 14 hours MH so the remainder of the 10 hours you're sleeping right so for those 14 hours let's say you're locked in your cubicle or you're locked in an office or you're locked wherever okay and you're working

how can you know anything besides your work why would you if you are preoccupied in a certain mode in a Certain way of looking at the world in a certain pattern of thinking in a certain pattern of belief why would you be expected to know something way over here because I have one life to live and if the majority of my time I'm I'm at work doing something that I hate or that I'm not engaged in at some point I probably should examine that well there's no should I'm ask I'm I'm I'm telling you what

happens I mean you you It's the reality for sure you said so so it's it's there's no judgment here there's no you should turn around and look the other way I'm not saying that I'm I'm simply answering your question why is it that most people don't know what they want and my response is why should they if you are preoccupied by X and Y and you are not preoccupied by looking into what exactly it is that you want why would you know what you want there's no Should there there's no Should there I'm just making

a plain black and white statement of fact so how do you define work well you're missing you're missing the whole point by work I am saying preoccupation if your total attention is towards everything except looking into what it is that you want out of life mhm why would you know what you want out of life I think it's a fundamental it's a Fundamental human responsibility to at least at some point have meaning in life I I don't I don't care at some point I'm just saying I'm just answering the question why people don't know what

they want the reason they don't know what they want is that there's no reason for them to know because they never look there but that there's no should look there I'm saying that's just why you talked last time we talked a little bit about you know and you brought it up Here sometimes that that Fe fear gets in the way of a lot of things and you know we were talking about fear of failure and you kind of jolted me by saying well no maybe perhaps it's fear of success and we went down that road

what triggers fear in people I again I know it's personal but what is it that Trigg desire desire triggers fear wanting things yeah whether there's desire there must Be fear I get the fact that fear is triggered by desire I get the fact that fear is triggered by things that we want that that for whatever reason seem to uh seem to be far away so the idea is we hold on to that desire when in fact if we let go of that desire no there's if we let go no you're going prescriptive on me again

there's no come on what do you mean if we let go of the desire what there's as if you're going To turn off a switch and let go of all you're not being serious what do you mean if you let if all of you listening let go of all your desires you will be free of fear okay let's all get together in Town Square tonight and let go up all our Des come on Mo come on this is not you know this is not a a weekly Journal let's let's talk serious come on what do

you mean if you don't try to help people what what prevents us from detaching from things well it isn't About detaching it is about learning about the Perils of attachment on a very very personal level once someone becomes so overwhelmed and um indescribably stricken by something to where they can't take it anymore then the possibility of going a different way uh arises until that point is reached it's all philosophical you and you feel very strongly that transformation in its true Essence can be achieved by anyone who's serious enough to go do it um I am

convinced that the person who is hellbent on transforming will not need to wait for me to say whether it's possible or not if you ask a question like do you believe the transformation possible my saying yes isn't going to do jack for anybody because the person if I say no Then the person who says oh the answer is no okay I guess I won't transform that person never wanted it anyways so he was going to get it anyways if the person who listens and says oh he said yes so now I will go ahead and

try to transform he didn't want it anyways so it's it's this this whole empty useless motivation thing do you really believe that this is possible yes hooray what's going to happen nothing human beings don't respond to This they're not they're not you know but they respond to inspiration inspiration isn't given by saying yes as a NOS inspiration isn't given by saying yes this is possible if something arises within one one's own heart which says this is what I want or he or she sees someone who has something and has arrived somewhere and is inspired by

that person and then inspiration Rises with them within them yes or someone reads something yes but It doesn't arise from asking a question which says is this possible yes or no yes it's possible now I'm inspired no it's not it doesn't come from that motivation doesn't work it might work for a day I I agree I totally agree with that so so it really so I my honest my honest input to you is that the the coming through the approach of trying to help people does not work it does not work let's try and do

this so that people can be benefited It's all crap it doesn't work that way human organisms don't work that way they work they work intrinsically they things work from with in so something on the outside can spark something within but it's almost always the something on the outside that is not trying to make that person spark from within it's always incidental it's always out of the blue the the way that you most affect someone is when you say something and you don't Even know that you said it but but something that you said they connected

with and it was to you insignificant but to them it made a Big Splash in their life things never happen through this neat and tidy volition and raw raw and this is the way to do it and yes you can it's all crap and and and listen I I see your point so if it's if helping people is a is an obstacle or is a challenge what is a more appropriate way to think speaking the Truth so is speaking the truth is is it is learning from other is part of that truth it depends who

the other is the legends that you're talking about not not not the not the hund books that we're talking about okay okay so it depends who it depends that is learning from others it depends what you mean by learning it depends who the others are okay so even if you satisfy the others by saying quote the Legends fine if by learning you mean mimicry no and once Again I know where you're coming from so so instead of learning so learning it isn't the habits of people who have become a success and it's this nonsense no

can you learn from another person who legend or not yes absolutely absolutely um but only if they say something that is genuine okay so you for example whether you like to admit it or not for myself and for others we learn from you because there is a level of genuiness there right is that a Am I speaking out of school with that is that inappropriate I don't I don't know what others feel I mean if yeah they tell me what they feel but that that's fine I mean I I didn't try to instill that but

if if so okay so your approach is hey well I'm doing whatever I'm doing because of my own personal Journey yeah so the great question um everything that I do I don't know why I do what I do um but everything that I do to do do arises spontaneously and yes It arises from me from within yes absolutely it is very personal everything everything arises from whatever lives in inside a desire to find the truth but it isn't done for a purpose but isn't part of the purpose to find to to to find to seek

and see that truth for you sure it is but that isn't it's a purpose in in that it's a Pursuit so yes I am pursuing it to discover the truth but it isn't some overall purpose to help Mankind and all this stuff okay For you so is that why you say performance is a side effect that if we performance is a side effect if you try to perform you will not perform all great things come from effortlessness not from effort yeah that's tough for people to wrap their arms around what does that have to do

with anything I'm not here to make it easy I'm not here to make it tough I don't care so why does it matter why do you Say that why do you say that's tough people to I don't so what so I should not say it then I mean okay what's the difference whether it's tough or not who cares what's the difference it there is no difference that's why it's not see but the the point that I'm making is you said that that's tough for people to wrap their arms around because you view it from stand

standpoint of help and I view it I do you're right I view it from a Standpoint of stating the truth everything else be damned I get it and and I think the thing that that the the real the the real aha for me during this conversation was this whole idea of seeking to help somebody that that desire to help people that that that's which which is basically nothing more than ego and that isn't a bad thing or a good thing I know your mind's going to go there it is not a bad thing or a

good thing it is simply An ineffective thing it is an empty thing and for you personally has that NE has that ever been because you've always written you've always people have always approached you for advice or counsel or coaching have you ever had that desire to help people um the more sincere and serious I became the less of a desire that became and and was it understanding that the greatest thing that you can do for Yourself is help yourself and if others benefit from that great if they don't that's great too [Music] um you know

it's about we we all go through different things in life we all have various experiences we all go through um our own forms of of of trouble and you know life bringing storms and and uh and so you you those become a window into examining the Source from where such things arise um so everything is about learning the truth about where you are where you want to go why such and such has has happened uh and whatever comes from that by side effect that another may take something from it comes but it's but if I

if I write something and I find myself trying to um Help uh I stop writing that's not the way because I know that I've moved in that moment I have moved away from uncompromising truth and I have moved towards um an an egoic desire to help and that is not satisfying at all makes total sense to me let me ask you two more quick things it seems like the beginning of of most Transformations that I've seen in people start with a crisis what is it about a crisis that Always kind of IGN well human beings

do not change unless there's they're standing at the of a cliff with a knife to their throat and a Tiger standing in front of them that's the human beings are 12th hour creatures that's just the way it is can you get to a state where you don't have to wait for a crisis to continue that process that you go through well of understanding there is no how but if you find a way then so be It when you talk talk about the truth being outside of your mind is that the same as having no mind

or is that that feeling that we discussed earlier when you when you get that feeling you know it's a knowing yeah so feeling uh feeling is sort of a direct communication um from something deep um whatever the mind tells you is a lie and therefore truth does not exist Within those conversations do you are you totally detached from your mind I'm sure everybody's curious hell I am you know the mind is the Mind means very little to me um the mind it's its voice is it's the voice of someone I don't want to hear but

it's but that you know but it's there right that's that's taken years of learning about the truth not practice I Didn't practice anything um that that t takes years of learning about the truth uh to to be really that suspicious of the thoughts that go on intimately inside your own head and part of that truth is that all of that is [ __ ] it's all nonsense yes it's all lies it's all conditioning and it's all beliefs and it's all opinions and it's all circular it doesn't go anywhere there's no truth there it's all Intellectual

jargon MH and is there a sense of Freedom capio when you reach that state where you're at where you really do disidentify with all that well there is absolutely a sense of freedom but the freedom isn't a good experience it's just freedom and and I I say that because you know so what I mean you the way that you asked it as if the freedom is going to feel good and it's not about that um you know it's not about a Chase for an Experience but it's it it's another layer removed to getting to that

truth freedom from the mind is the ultimate freedom and and you're there it doesn't matter we're curious man that's all it doesn't matter it's just that's just that's you know that's just uh that's just comparison and competition you know it's irrelevant it's how long did you meditate today It's it doesn't go anywhere it doesn't matter it's you know where I am and it that has no impact on your immediate life there's there's there are issues in everyone's life that are very immediate very acute that require their attention but your life Devotion to the work that

you do on yourself whether you like it or not is inspiration to others I don't do any work on myself the what do you call it self what do you call examination well I it Doesn't matter what I call it I'm just saying that it's not in the vein that you're sort of putting it where it's working on myself I don't work on myself it it is it you know it is a it is a direct examination of the truth about things and that is a different way to say it I don't do any work

I have no rituals I literally I have no meditation I have no mindfulness I have there's no practice so I literally mean that there's no work going on Here I know you don't but when you get up and write you write what comes through you is your learnings through that writing that helps you kind of peel away to get to that truth yes because you don't call that work that's just pure no absolutely not there's no work there's no there's no hammer and nails going on over here there's no work it's it happens instantly it's

nonwork it happens instantly it isn't it isn't about what I Do it's where I live so I live in that soup of uh swimming in an ocean you know um dissecting truth but there's no there's no practice that that I I'm I'm doing my best to remove that whole charade of penance and practice and ritual and technique and you must work on yourself and you must pay the price and you have it's none of that stuff it's none of that effortful stuff and face the things that you don't like and It's that's all just crap

listen all the problems that you that you have right anxiety fear pain failure whatever it is worry all of that right all that right did you work to get those of course not okay so if you didn't work to get them why would you have to work to get rid of them that's what we need to get a better understanding of it's the it's part of The conditioning it's it's kind of the depth that you have talked about or at least least help me understand this whole notion of disconnecting from my mind is not something

that I'm going to capture it's this thing that is available to me that I got to access and that's you know that that's that's what I'm trying to understand I understand I appreciate it man always no better way for me to start my year Y gupa how are you very well how's the Week going same is every week there's got to be interesting things going on man tell me at least enlighten me a little bit what's the most interesting thing that happened to you over the last couple of weeks just the um the solidification of

the fact that isolation is so critical in this world why because we I mean our minds get polluted by the environment and the people around us but for you what is it that that really you know stimulates That polluted by interaction Minds get fluted by interaction because with interaction comes posturing with interaction comes uh you know sending forth one's self image as a surrogate and uh you know the that that creates the influx of ego and that creates further complication um I think when a person is isolated there there are there's enough of a complexity

in the form of self-image and ego to keep one occupied For the rest of his life without having to um you know bring more complexity into the prey how do you how does that stuff not affect you how does the the poison of the thinking of other people and I'm with all due respect to some of these other people but I'm just saying in general how do you not let that impact you I don't think it's about letting or not letting I think it's I think it's really it's all internal it's all looking inside yourself

and Um it is the it is the no matter what you're what Pursuit you're involved in your level of devotion becomes tested and um the more your level of devotion naturally and organically is in something then that is what will keep you from sort of entering into um complexities which if that devotion is not naturally strong you will succumb well it it I want to I I want to pick up on a couple things that I Learned from you over the past couple weeks if you're not going to share anything interesting there a couple things

that I learned from you from your discourses and tweets and so forth that I want to dig a little bit deeper into and the first one is so apropo for the world we live in today when you talk about the difference between Clarity versus doubt and I want to read the tweet and ask you a question about it if one is driven by the hope of reward and The pleasure of favorable outcomes he will be stricken by self-doubt if he is at all times self-honest about the purity of his motivations his decisions and his actions

will arise from Clarity that's beautiful dig into that for me a little bit I know it's about not thinking about outcomes but I want to explore that a little bit with you I never said it was not thinking about outcome that's a sport psychology thing that's cosmetic nonsense it is not About not thinking about outcome that that that basically means that you're forcing yourself not to think about outcomes that's where everyone lives in the prescription World it has nothing to do with that it is an understanding that something that is chased for the reward um

is absolutely if you chase something for a reward first it must be cemented in your mind with you know Hammers and nails that that is not bad and I think that there's no point in talking to any Human being unless they first get past the idea of good and bad because if they can't get past good and bad then whatever you say will be colored by that lens and therefore they will be running away from bad and running towards good and game's over um so has nothing whatsoever I can't emphasize that enough it has nothing

whatsoever to stop thinking about outcomes that is prescription and that is garbage it has everything to do with understanding that If you chase something that that thing will run from you if you chase something that means that you are chasing for reward and once again that is not bad and it is not wrong and it is not criminal and it is not breaking a rule it is just about the effect so if I throw water on you and you get wet that isn't bad and that isn't good it is just the effect and the effect

of chasing something for pleasure um will create self-doubt and the effect of chasing Something or not even chasing it but pursuing something um for a genuine motivation and the purity of arriving at that thing whatever it may be for the thing itself is not good it is just that that the effect of that will be Clarity so if you are going into I don't want to relate it to Sports in a minute but if you're going into an important business meeting where it's really critical that you raise a round of funding to keep Your business

going what is your mindset like going into that business meeting well you're already you're already compromised if you go in under the weight of need it is not about the how it is if you have nothing and you go in because you really need something uh you will your Effectiveness Will be limited so which what how are you approaching it then well does from whether he's trying to sell someone on a product or sell a product or sell someone on an idea to get funding whatever it may be you know the the the traditional way

of looking of things is that I need to sell you on this and what is what is entirely overlooked is that it has nothing to do with selling someone else it has Everything to do with selling yourself on yourself and if the if what you're touting is of limited Effectiveness or it's of not very high quality or of limited quality then something inside you will not be sold on it and when something is not inside you is not sold on it then that will be that will you will be limited in how well you can

sell someone else on it So within the context of sports we're we're recording this on the weekend of the Super Bowl and you get a lot of these athletes who are talking about hey I'm going to approach this just like it's another game you and I know that that's [ __ ] if if you if one of these athletes is a friend of yours and you're talking to him about approaching that game how are they approaching how are you talking to him about approaching the Super Bowl it's not about the approach it's not about the

approach I'm not going to tell him how to approach it however he approaches it it's it's what he wants to learn does he want to learn or not so are you thinking about winning it's not about what I'm thinking about it's not about me listen What mo there's so many things that um there are so many things that are understood like if we're standing in a room there's walls There's sure there's paint right there's a ceiling now any answer that I give is based upon the assumption that there's wall there's carpet there's painting there's paint

and there's a ceiling right but there's so many answers that require you to understand that there is no paint and there is no wall and there's no ceiling where do I be again right and so that's why some of these questions are very difficult to to to get across because The understandings that are so assumed and not even questioned because they're so part of the furniture and the fabric that it where it's where do you begin so it isn't for me to answer your question outright I would have to assume the same thing that you

assume sure sure get it and the assumptions are the ass asss that are assumed before the question is even asked are not true so the question is like comes later first the assumptions That you not even haven't even mentioned those are what needs to be challenged so it has nothing to do with what would I tell him what would be my mindset what would I want to do if this is what this is what you have to understand if the guy said I'm going to approach this as if it was a Super Bowl you know

what the answer is okay if the guy says I'm going to approach us like it any other game you know what the answer is okay okay okay so there's no no you shouldn't Approach at that no that doesn't work if the person said I'm not sure how to approach this and I really want to approach it the most effective way can we have a discussion about you know what this really means and and how how the effect of approaching it one way causes this and the effect of approaching ing a different way causes it that

way now we can have a conversation with advice let's go there And here's here's the real purpose of me asking the question there is such external pressure on a lot of these athletes to win the game and some it's very difficult for people not to scum to that external pressure and still kind of maintain that internal desire to be the best so kind of advice are you giving them you have to filter things through your own DNA and through your Own the the according to what resonates with you some people if they approach it through

the lens of this is a Super Bowl they it it creates a greater degree of motivation within them another person if he approaches it the same way it creates a greater degree of pressure within them so it isn't about advice it depends upon you have to break down the individual and find out what is it about him you know what inspires him how was he made and that dictates the direction That he goes so you and I talk a lot about and I know you talk about the idea of giving yourself permission to be great

so in your work with with others and most importantly with yourself what prevents people from giving themselves that permission or that opportunity to be great the lack of desire to want to be great so do most of us lie to ourselves when we say hey of course I want to be Great well the same way that they lie to themselves well it's not lie it's the same way it's the same way as the person who says I would love to have $10 million he's not lying but it's very different from a person who says well

I'm going to go create you know the world's greatest company and $10 million is going to come from that there's different things there's there's want and there's Want um so I think I think any conversation that is centered around the masses and people is a fruitless conversation it's it's catering to the lowest common Den inator and the lowest common denominator shouldn't be the part of any conversation so when you think about the great artists that you admire what is it that you admire about them draw desire hunger devotion DNA it's always going to be the

same answer It doesn't matter the correct so if I don't have a DNA and I do have that desire to be great you don't have the hunger forget it go home you I don't care how many books you read you can read all the habits of you know wealthy people or whatever you want to read all day long you can literally your want right the wealthy people can wear 14 L A day I don't care what you do you're not going to get there you're not because you don't have the DNA for it the DNA

is Not genetic the DNA is the DNA of having a desire this is aboutness this is about world number ones this is people who want conquer their mind it's about people who this is not about the common man I don't care about the Common Man the whole world Su comes and bows at the feet of the Common Man I do not I am not interested it is boring to me I don't want to help anybody I'm not interested If this helps anybody the person the person who is ready and right will automatically get helped Auto

okay and those are the people I want to talk to let's talk about from the 8 to 11 are they interested in learn how about let's answer that very few okay the 8 to 11 so the 8 to 11 even in those there's a very small number who have the DNA but since they're already an eight they they have the eligibility Requirements okay good good right so um so there's a there's a listen Mo you know it's sort of making light of it but you know I don't think that the it's understood um um just

how much human beings have been conditioned to be average and you're going to say that you do know and you don't the degree to which human beings are conditioned and have all the talent and possibility and potential sucked out of them by a certain age is astronomical sure it is Virus it's a virus Society is a virus and it is because it is precisely because it caters to the lowest common denominator that it breeds them I agree I agree and every time you and I talk about that I become a lot more conscious of it

and that's why I asked you the question about hey how do you distance your mind when you're politely having a conversation with a couple of these people and you don't want to internalize it because it is Poison yeah I think I think it's about it's much more about carrying an umbrella than it is about stopping the rain this is about that deep examination that you're talking about yeah everything all of the shields that you have and all of the um all of the ways that you have to prevent yourself from getting tainted and uh significantly

conditioned all are from the inside not not from you know not from the outside outside mhm how would you Describe the relationship that capil Gupta has with himself constant examination and is it constant examination of saying hey here's one here's where my mind really screwed me today or is it are you in a neutral frame of mind as you're doing that examination are you just learning and understanding it's it's a constant examination that arises from a devotion of not being affected by the mind what can can you give me an example Of a of a

recent situation where you face that when you um experience a so-called assault let's you use that word from the out who you really get assaulted by you know the arrow may come from the outside but the wound happens on the inside and so a person can get all the arrows he wants from the outside um but if he spends his life trying to stop the arrows from the outside he misses the boat because what where the real money is is to stop the wounds from Happening on the inside so if someone slaps you once you

slap yourself twice so if you if you understand that not intellectually if you understand that viscerally then your efforts will go in the direction of the prevention of you sling yourself twice then they will in the direction of having the other person not slap you and everyone is taught to do the opposite mhm at this stage in your own Evolution and your own understanding do you ever Get to a point where you feel at peace with the quest that you're on for this deep understanding yeah you have the most peace when the things that used

to arise don't arise anymore that's when you know that something is is transforming how do you deal with emotion emotion is a barometer emotion when it tempers itself then you know that something is transformed Within you I don't use it for one thing or another so you're not it's not for you it's you you you you don't ever get to that place of anger you don't get to that place of being self-critical of yourself when you feel like something didn't go well you don't go there all those things arise it is a matter of the

degree to which they arise and the frequency with which they arise and the situations in which they used to arrive and no longer Arrive that that is the barometer as opposed to using them or um or um you know subduing them uh it is a it is a it is a monitoring of how much they arose and and how much they would have arose before are there particular emotions that you're less likely to respond or react to now that you're at this place of understanding for yourself you ever get derailed well not knowing the truth

about everything is derail you know so That constant that constant Devotion to finding the truth it is a derail until you get there mhm and and when you find yourself stuck for example somebody was talking to me a little bit earlier today about um just a a real complex issue that they're dealing with at work and they found themselves stuck and it was just just being in that room and feeling the emotion that they had on people was toxic when you find yourself of dealing With complex issues for you A lot of times it's just

personal things that you're digging deep in which is to get to that truth going to cut you off because I'm going to forget what I'm going to say um the toxicness first of all of your example is that there's a group that's the first toxicness yeah it is a group there about seven or eight people yeah yeah there you go nothing no truth can come from a group never never in a 100 million years never impossible Can't happen will not happen does not happen um that's the first toxicity the toxicness you know as you described

isn't that your emotions are toxic to enough the the the very group is an assault to begin with okay because whenever you have a group there is nothing but intellectual compromise there is there's posturing there is ego and wherever there are those things then one's devotion is always always where They can't help it there's there's no way that it's not going to be that way it's always to those things and whatever one's devotions and Allegiance and attention is to that means it is not in the direction of Truth so when you're faced with an important

decision as a as a team how do you approach those meetings team no way there's no team each person each person must be hired painstakingly as a worldclass rare DNA individual to his Own subsp specialty within the group okay um and that person has has to be really meticulously brought on board um and uh if he is deemed you know the the the the the genuine um person of knowledge of that that particular small sub Niche um as for everyone getting together and working on one problem you know that that that works in building a

house that works in lifting a log because there's so-called teamwork because you have Muscle power for many that's fine but but but in artistic or intellectual Pursuits those things you know you will have many examples where people will come and say see it worked well what they don't realize is what they don't realize is they don't have the other side to where how well it could have quote worked if a person who had true knowledge of that thing was allowed to do it had had free reign to do what he or she wanted okay that's

the only way You can compare you know no one can say that my life was great or this or that the only way that you would know if you're quote right was if you had two lives and you did one way you know one life you did one way and the other life you did the other way then you compare then you would then you had a better idea but you only had one life so you can't compare anything so Everyone likes to make up their own stories and make themselves feel better but see it

work And look at this and everyone sees what they want to see and everyone hears what they want to hear well is that and and it reminds me of something you said a couple weeks ago where you talk about that the the the elite never become Elite because of culture they actually become Elite despite the culture that what you're referencing here uh yeah in group is culture you know the company a company culture is That you don't have have toxic the the the group itself is toxic and that toxicity is is limited so long as

each so long as each person is number one painstakingly but on board um very delicately and um after extensive analysis um and then each person is allowed free reign over their particular domain because they know it better than anybody else so what's the what's the leader's role in a symphony you don't have the piano player playing the guitar Right and have the guitar playing the saxophone so every one has to be a an owner of their particular domain and but when each one does their thing to their utmost then collectively what is heard is a

symphony but if each one try to play the piano together it doesn't work and that that would be akin to all of them trying to work on one problem together that problem has a particular domain that it fits most neatly into you rare rare people are rare and And so when you when you see for instance you know for in when you see these documentaries and you see you know the star the Entertainer the the Superstar athlete what the the you know the multi-billionaire CEO whatever it is and then he goes into a meeting and

he goes in this super long rectangular table right there are it's all the same there too many seats at that table okay you know that table that table is long as Main Street okay You know all the main streets across every city in this country don't have um as rare DNA people forget at one table that's what that's what isn't see the the the degree to which rareness is rare is not understood if you if you took all the boardrooms at the top companies across the entire world right you might find four people who have

extraordinarily rare DNA who can truly make the rest of them and and those four people unless they have true and free Reign they own the company and they can do whatever they want typically they reign with an iron fist which is which is effective not democracy and Kumbaya all right and conscious capitalism all this crap all right this nonsense spirituality nonsense this is a road to mediocrity um those people people are drowned out by the majority of the mediocre so this whole world is totally backwards and the degree to which it is backwards is Unfathomable

so what do you what do you see the role of a leader today to be the leader of himself first and just let that example be well a person who a person who is most who has most ownership of himself and whatever your word is self-realization ownership whatever the word is um that person's decisions will reflect that that person's behaviors will reflect That that person's uh the moves that he makes in the company will will reflect that everything is a reverberation of that one Center if that is compromised then that person will have will have

no choice but to um but to settle for prescriptions and behavior modifications and hiring you know all these these business coaches to Teach them how to behave and what to say because there's no Center so would you abolish all meetings if you were Running Company X would you not have meetings with your Executives um if I was the owner of a company and I truly wanted to create a truly exceptional company I would have the least number of employees I possibly could first of all um now where their Manpower is required yeah that's fine it's

Manpower you can hire as many of That as you want um but as far as the decision- making it's it's it's it's all about Iron Fist it's all about uncompromised not compromise it's all opposite it's all the things that no one wants to say say cuz it's not popular it doesn't fit into the into the lanyard conferences doesn't sound nice on stage okay so everyone's looking everyone in this world mod their allegiance even more than to their own company is to how they Look every yeah I agree sure every human being is more concerned with

how they appear than they will lose billions before they compromise how they appear sure that's how C self-image is so so the the real truths about the central nature of a human being and where true decisions come from and where true success and and devotion and Purity and Effectiveness in any Endeavor comes from there is no one talking about it no one no one no one is Talking about these things they're all talking about all the nonsensical Fringe stuff like Behavior change and then that's because no one has a center so since everyone is blind

they all need 17 seeing Idols well you've shared with me and we've even obviously shared it on these podcasts several time about how the Masters are the ones who are spending their time understanding the true nature of the game in this context is it the is The game the business within this leadership context is that what we're talking about yeah in business obvious yes the game would be in in sports the game would be the sport but yes and as a as so from a leadership perspective what am I trying to m in addition to

mastering myself what what else do I need to to master in order to have the type of impact that you're describing on the People of that company the few that have you know that rare DNA that work with me you master yourself what's left so that's the game that's the game within the game so the game would be the business itself or the pursuit or the sport or the whatever that that would be the game and the game within the game um would be the Mastery of the self but but even before you go to

the Mastery of the self even if we stick with the big game for a minute um the it Is about understanding what the big game even is so forget the Mastery of itself even the big game is not being understood everyone is playing according to the rules that have already been made everyone is playing in in the world of competition everyone that's why there's parity everyone is a asking the questions that are already being as asked no one's asking new questions no one's disrupting the game they are they are they are entering into the boxing

Ring to fight the fight that's already being fought and that's why that's why true genuine rare companies and rare legendary athletes it's rare it is not a product of lack of talent or lack or in the business World lack of intellect it is it is a product of having fallen Hook Line and center for the culture and not having understood your particular game but have you ever Had an experience where you were in the presence of an individual that you would call a master a leader like that who was surrounded by a few of these

lieutenants who really had that re rare DNA and that desire to seek that understanding that you're talking about have you ever experienced that that type of person is so rare to be to forget not be conditioned forget we'll leave that alone but to have the insight and the longing to cleanse himself of his Conditioning that DNA itself is extraordinarily rare extraordinarily rare the culture is too strong the culture Society in the world and the culture is a very powerful place it's an it's an unrelenting tide it it is an unrelenting tide if you if if

you're having a conversation with a group of leaders and they're asking you how what you're suggestion is to try to inject that type of thinking in their at least their key people how would you what Would you talk to them about what key people the key people is them who's more key than themselves I I'm asking how do I start to develop a culture that goes this deep that has that level of commitment to understanding you want direct truth yeah you won't do it because this hasn't become part of your DNA you will only be

doing it secondhand therefore you can only do it prescriptively no matter how hard you try when will you recognize that it is Part of somebody's DNA right now we were talking about you what can you see tell me Ian let's let's stick to me U right now you would you would hear it from me and then you would pass it on and I'm saying that's not going to work mhm and and believe me a couple of weeks ago that that hit me between the eyes and I I it connected with me right am I there

yet of course not but I'm getting it you're getting it in intellectually but there's I don't think that's even worth Talking about there's because this is going to turn into a conversation of of well how can you get that DNA no it won't okay there's no point there's no point it's not going to happen in fact I recommend that no one talk about what I say to people that they know because they're going to think it's so off-the-wall that it's so antithetical and so against everything that they know that they're going to discount it right

at the beginning so I tell people to Stay quiet much less do the opposite so so this idea of that you're going to now impart this to the people it's not a question of your intelligence or your or your knowledge or your ability had nothing to do with that it's it's wiring man it's wiring it's just how a human being is naturally wired and it it isn't about getting better at it so that you can it's not about that it's it has to come everything has to come from the horse's mouth that's why I think

it's Totally it's it's frankly Mal practice for those for let's say a person becomes a great coach let's say a sports coach and then he he starts an academy and then he has assistant coaches who teach who teach his system that's malpractice they can't teach his system they're just a bunch of mules all they do is you they read his nonsense and they're going to pass it on because quite frankly it's never about the information it's something about the DNA of the giver and If you remove the giver and all you have is the information

then all you have is snake skin doesn't go anywhere it's the whole package so it's never about pass this information along you know th those people who were mesmerized by Jesus they weren't mesmerized just by his words because the Ten Commandments and and then Buddha's you know you know four noble truths and eight-fold path those are all over the place right in every library and every right what have they Done they didn't done anything cuz it wasn't about just it wasn't about dumbing down the concepts and passing it on like a cheat sheet it was

about it was about the Buddha himself it was the package of him yes him saying those things but there was something about the hyness right that the packaging of it and and the the Resonance of the voice and and the um answering the requisite questions that came um it wasn't just the passing on of the information which Is what you're asking me and and that's not going to work when did you personally recognize that you're ready yourself to make that shift to that level of seriousness to make that shift to be to to to be

that rare master that we're talking about well because was there something that happened to you or was this you know it's a good question I don't know I mean these These are these questions about the win I don't know they don't really go anywhere because no One really knows what knows the answer um but uh you know I don't even want to say this because it's going to come across as a competition because that's that's the lens through which everyone looks at things I have never met someone as devoted and serious as meh I believe

that sure in these particular things and and and I will hail from the rooftops that that isn't a good thing I'm not proud of that right I don't I don't want a prize for that that's not great it's Nothing and the reason that there's no prize for me is because that wasn't my choice it happened to me it it was a chosenness so I can't take credit these things just came to me they when I when I have to answer a question on Twitter or to you or to a client or on the field or

in the in a sticky situation or you know in a on a you know at a critical part of the match whatever it is I don't go with my own knowledge it just comes if it didn't come then I wouldn't be Able to answer questions so rapidly I'm just reciting I'm not creating but is it a heightened level of awareness that allows you to hear these messages or or have these things come through you it is a heightened level of devotion seriousness and sincerity and any person and I'm not the only one there have been

many people who have been sincere and devoted before me and those people who were is all the same when you develop and when you demonstrate a level of Sincerity and seriousness and genuiness the universe you you you tend to you tend to prove to the universe that you are a worthy vessel and things just flow into you because you have demonstrated that that degree of seriousness sincerity genuiness devotion Purity whatever it is in that particular domain that's the way it works and do you find that that happens more likely when somebody's dealing with a really

serious crisis that we're our back is so against The wall that we there's no turning back um no I think that's conflating two things I mean when someone's back against the wall that is the situation in which a person does become serious but he tends to become serious only for so long as his back is against the wall and all the promises that he made that he wanted to do it again once it's over he will do it again so this is much more of a long-term fundamental DNA seriousness as opposed to a situational One

MH all right so two more things for you and I and and we'll just stick on this for a moment when you yourself are working with people do you get a sense of when they're ready I've never met anyone who had that level of seriousness but there are but those people absolutely exist as you can see from you know the the rebrands the picassos and the some of the sports legends that have gone and you know years and years ago um obviously they exist M absolutely exist And going back to what we were talking about

this whole idea of permission are we just not are we're just as a society as human beings as people who are devoted to thinking that we want to get better we're just not ready for the truth I guess yes well you can't be ready for the truth if what you want is to get better what's the alternative arriving at the ultimate or nothing whatever the ultimate is for you see everyone has been everyone has been sold So many bill of bills of goods that they don't know which way is up anymore if you have a

house filled with 14,000 things all those 14,000 are all the bills of goods that Society has sold you so all 14,000 will have to be genison first and a big bonfire will have to happen before one you know zeros himself out to now be ready for the truth because what what's someone going to say when they hear well because you're focused on getting better you can't be Ser and you can never learn the truth that is so antithetical how is person understand that that sounds insane and and the truth will always sound insane to someone

who believes in society so what prevents what prevents people from seeing that truth never having heard that message you know and most are never going to have the DNA to inculcate that message but some will but when the only voice you hear is one voice which is society's voice mhm the culture's voice And the motivational speaker and the priests and the mindfulness expert and the meditation instructor and the Buddhist and the Christian and the whatever when that's when that's all you hear then there really is very little opportunity except for the rarest DNA guy who

know that that's wrong out of the box okay that's that guy is you know he's already um open to knowing that's wrong or ineffective um but those who could have Been turned those who had the DNA to be turned they're out of luck because that's the only voice they ever heard you know my my voice is very small though I'm you know I'm a quarter of a drop of water compared to the ocean of society right I mean I'm one person versus you know 20 million who are spouting the complete opposite exactly but that's what

I appreciate about you and that's what a whole lot of people people who follow you appreciate the Point is the point is that that you know the very the very possibility of you know everyone hearing these words is minute it's not going to happen everyone you know I'm a very small microphone so so one one last thing and then we'll kind of pause this you don't read a whole lot about other people you don't follow a whole lot of people you don't listen to the advice of anybody on this quest of Truth Truth For You

Do you ever kind of think about right or wrong or do You just go why would I think about right and wrong do you think it's wrong the way you ask the question in the tone of your voice and the way it the the way that your voice Rose at a 45 degree angle in the first part off hey man I love how you an you're you make a hell of a play-by-play person okay that go ahead that demonstrates that you think it's wrong that I don't think of right and wrong and no I really

don't I'm curious the 45 Degree angle doesn't happen that isn't a genuine question that's a comment masquerading as a question with a with a question mark retrofitted on the end of it um it it you why do I think about right and wrong when when right and wrong is exactly the barrier well see I didn't think of that that's why I asked right I didn't think of that that's defining in and of itself you just saying that yeah but but it won't go anywhere because you have to take it on Belief and there's no point

in taking it on belief it is precisely the subscri striving to right and wrong good and bad correct and incorrect um that keeps one from knowing the truth all right I have uh too many thoughts going into my mind so we can uh we can hit a pause on this one and uh thank you for uh before we hit record I was asking you a question and you said pause and hit record so let's start with how do you make sense of what's going on in the world or do You you know I'm I'm not

terribly surprised um I'm not talking about predictions or anything I'm like it's just one it's you know the thing that is most talked about is a thing in everyone's mind and if it isn't talked about then it isn't on everyone's mind but doesn't mean the turmoil is not there so just look at the look at the overall State of Affairs you know forget The Corona virus this there is nothing but Corona virus um if you look back if you look back 50 years if you look back 80 years 100 years everyone isn't dying of cancer

every you know one you know everyone doesn't have type 2 diabetes um everyone isn't you know doesn't is being struck from anxiety and pills and psychiatrists on every corner and um the whole the whole thing has gone It's all downhill so Corona virus is just another detail of the degradation of society um the the spread and and how that degradation reveals itself is is just details and this is just a significant detail I think the big problem I think once again I told you like don't come to me if you want to feel better because

those things don't do anything so I you know if someone gives you a few kind Words and it relaxes you for 5 minutes and the six minute you're back to where you are so that's just stop the nonsense and be serious if you're going to be serious be serious if you're not going to be serious then just turn on CNN and go back to that you know it really it really is not about how can you say some good words to make this feel better I mean haven't you had enough of that it really is

about talking seriously about what's going on you your life's in chaos Life's always in chaos if you didn't have Corona virus is your life at peace you know you're just look at the world the world Corona virus is just a holding up the mirror even closer that's all it is um that's what it is and and do you look at it as you know and and I really do appreciate the fact that you say that hey your life is in chaos whether without the damn Corona virus and this is a mirror that's exactly right and

that's exactly right I I it really is it isn't about understanding that message because there is no message there's no message that that you should make sure that you take a look at your life and see that it's in chaos you don't have to do that you don't have to do anything it's it's if if something seeps into your bones it does if it doesn't it doesn't there's no message here there's no make sure that you go and do this there's no um there's no go SA prayers there's there there's nothing there's nothing any message

is a farce it's an attempt to sell someone on an idea has this disrupted your life personally in any ways I would say no but it doesn't it doesn't matter like because there's more there there's there's far more there's far more fundamental problems to focus upon in our lives you see human beings are media Chasers They they're they're alarmists they enjoy the alarm they enjoy the drama they enjoy 24/7 years they enjoy it they actually enjoy it okay and I'm not saying that's bad or that's good I'm saying that's just the nature of the human

mind it's the truth yeah the the human mind looks for distraction and I'm not saying that a virus uh is all distraction that you shouldn't take precautions and that you um you know shouldn't do what's Necessary to defect yourself from getting infected or or doing to someone else I'm not saying that that that's practical that's practical but what bothers what bothers the human being isn't practicality what bothers is is the emotional drama and the fear and the anxiety that's the bothersomeness right it's not oh I have to stay away from so and so well from

that respect social distancing is all I've been talking about for the last s years Yeah yeah in fact that's what that that's how we started our conversation last time yeah so I mean I think you should anyway I mean socialization is a plague to begin with you know so what what what are you going to talk about in your socialization sessions anyways right you're going to gossip about this and you're going to laugh about that he he haha and nonsense and waste your life away so it who cares I mean so it isn't about minimizing

Corona virus it isn't About maximizing it it's about you and are you serious and do you really want to have a serious conversation or do you want to be hysterical and do you want to uh you're you're like you know everyone who's worried about the Corona virus their their life is in complete shambles as it is what's the difference if your if your if your house has collapsed what's the difference that um now on top of the collapse a few Twigs fell as well might As well well might well be an avalanche on top of

it what's the difference it isn't like your your house was perfect or in any semblance of perfect to begin with right so the the major issues of our lives are avoided um by Design uh because the human mind enjoys distraction and the greatest problem is the only problem and the only problem is your mind anxiety fear stress concern worry Ang All of these things even if even if there wasn't a virus for the next 10,000 years even if you even if you made even if every person in the world made $3 million a year Mo

and even and everyone had a Ferrari and everyone all the food they want to eat fine no world hunger can we take care of that fine no world hunger no world thirst let's get all the kumay out let's take care of it all fine what's that going to change at the end of the day you're going to go home with Your mind and that is the frontier that no one is looking at that's so that's what I appreciate so much about you man is really is to get to that level of understanding so do you

see that one needs to be in the state of desperation to reach that level of seriousness that you talked about and a you will probably emerge from there but are we at that State that maybe this public desperation a few people will emerge and and head in that seriousness direction that you talk About that's a good question I think that um life threatening events and um you know very serious things uh in one's life uh often times do have that impact on some people um it doesn't happen on mass no absolutely not that's never going

to happen I mean the second coming could happen every single day the next week and that wouldn't happen it's not going to happen so but there are those who are always sort of on the verge of of that on the cusp of that and they're Actually ripe um for becoming serious and maybe it's something like this that makes them so um but it's a good question does someone have to be desperate to reach there I mean there has to be some level of extremeness of some sort whether it's extreme desperation whether it's extreme desire whether

it's extreme um dissatisfaction with the status quo there has to be some form of an extreme um no no one no one five steps their way into this okay this Is not going to be at your workshop and this is not going to be at your Mastermind meeting this is not going to be at your school luncheon it's this there has to be an avalanche of something there has to be a hammer across your head of some sort that for for one to be shaken out of of this Ry out of this zombified state that's

not going to come from any podcast which says uh examine your own life make sure that you I mean all Podcasts are just crap I'm sorry Mo everything is just nonsense you don't have to apologize to me all these DVDs YouTube channel everything is just nonsense because because the very Foundation is is um a non-starter and the reason for that is I me let's speak truth M let's speak might be the only place in the world where truth is being spoken right in this conversation between me and you um where anything is a nonstarter if

it Begins with the idea to send someone a message or to help them because people don't want to be helped and that isn't a good thing or a bad thing nobody actually wants to be told what to do and quite frankly even if they did and you tell them what to do they're they're only appreciative that they were told and then 5 minutes later they go back to who they are so in India you know you have this longstanding ritual of you know gurus giving these talks to Literally millions of people on the audience right

I me very very large unimaginable audiences and everyone In Their audience is sitting cross-legged and shaking their nodding their head and and yes and then you know and then what do they do everyone goes back home and goes back to their life and and then what what what always is the chis let you hear oh you listen but you don't act upon it right that's that's just nonsense no first of all you have to Understand you cannot condemn people you have to understand the human psyche why is that person there they're not there to act

upon it they're not wrong or right they're not good or bad they're there because it gives them some semblance of peace to go sit in that um lecture hall or whatever it is it gives them a from their mundane and Trauma filled life it's it's an Escape okay and that isn't wrong or right and so no one's acting upon it because nobody Wants to if you put what you need is a whole bunch of rifles right you need a whole bunch of rifles and aim in people's heads and with the threat of death they might

tell the truth and the only way they tell the truth is first if they're forced to be in a position whe they're actually looking to examine what the truth is they don't even know why they go so everyone's a zombie of some type yeah I agree so let me ask you something I want to get to the truth in A minute but you just triggered something um you talked you wrote something that I know you don't remember about this whole idea of turmoil turmoil arrives on its own accord and it must leave by its own

accord in what way is that accomplished there's no way that I can answer that question there's no way that I can say let me tell you it's it's it's it's about it's about being thrown into the water and then coming out and becoming wet and then you and then me Asking you what do you feel right now and then you saying I'm wet and I ask you what does wet mean you have no way to describe that so what am I going to say do these things be out of turmoil no my discourses my S

Scrolls those things are an ongoing exposure to a human being which slowly seeps into the bones without any effort from themselves and without any without a shadow of a prescription so this is not a um it's not a five-step plan so can you tell me How to get out turmoil that's nonsense no uh I will tell you this turmoil will leave on its own if there is the appropriate immersion if there is the appropriate and systematic and ongoing and consistent exposure to Tru it will leave on its own so do you think that that the

the few people who are serious about the truth are we trying too hard to understand the notion of the truth is why is that why it's elusive to the majority of us um no I don't think There's a reason I I I I would say my first answer would be nobody really is interested in the truth and it's not a good thing or a bad thing I keep coming back it is not a good thing or a bad thing it is almost it is virtually impossible to talk to people and it isn't the people's fault

it's society's fault it is because they have become conditioned to hear what you didn't say and it's not their fault because in in all cases they're right so for instance If I say what I just said if I say um uh they don't want to hear the truth they don't hear that what they hears they don't want to hear the truth and they should okay and they're not wrong to hear that because that's the only message being propagated their entire life they are surrounded by loudspeakers in every direction even from from the underside everything is

in that vein you should be doing this and anything that's negative any anything that's in the in The negative which says well because you don't do this the implication absolutely 100,000% is that they're saying that you should do this and I'm not I'm saying things that face value but human beings are not able to see things that face value because they've been conditioned to be prescribed to and that's the only microphone through which they hear agreed a th% so I you know when you think about the emotional impact obviously that it's Having on people is

real I want to ask you something about the economic impact the economic impact especially the stock market impact has really wrecked people and it's wrecked people emotionally how do you see that do you like if that were to happen to you how do you rationalize that why do you want to rationalize what do you do to think about it what are you listen what what are you asking I'm asking that if you have Experienced in three or four days losses that took you seven seven years to accumulate how do you feel about that what what

are you asking that's what what no what if I say I feel X okay so so what do you do about it what do you do about it why are you asking what are you going to do about it I want you to know what you're asking you don't know what you're asking because curious I'm really curious there are people who deal with it and where are you trying to Go I'll help you help me go ahead you're trying to feel good no I'm really not I'm really not because it is turmoil to lose millions

of dollars yes turmoil and so the question that you're asking the and all these euphemistic beat around the bush ways is that does not feel good I'm in turmoil and I want that anxiety and that feeling of turmoil to go away so give me a way to process it so that I can make sense of it so that I can temporarily Escape that turmoil that's Beautiful question that's a beautiful question that's a beautiful question yes okay and I'm telling you and I'm telling you that I don't think that you're ready for the answer because the

answer that I'm going to give you is it doesn't matter because before this Corona virus came along before 50% of your net worth was wiped out you had turmoil in other ways I agree 100% one one thing for the other so your life was not perfect and that's an understatement your life was Not anything close to perfect sure are you telling me now I I I will go along Just for kicks with the guy who says no no no no you understand every single morning I wake up totally free I'm at peace 2 s there

isn't a single ounce of self self-conflict within me and then the coron virus came along and then this uh my net worth went down and now I'm in termo and I'm going to get back to that Perfection that I had or semi semblance of perfection that I had to years ago Fine I'll take that I'll go with that guy and answer his question okay now there isn't a single human being like that I agree okay so then that isn't the real question right it isn't about the answer it's about the question the question is not

what do I do about this latest turmoil the question is what's what about all the turmoils in your entire life that you haven't even examine what the fundament of those things are and that you're chasing Turmoil after turmoil after turmoil trying to feel better feel better feel better and you've been doing that your entire life how long have you been alive how long have you been alive and your entire life you've been trying to feel better about one turmoil after another so even if I gave you a magic pill and you felt better next Monday

you have a brand new set of termo what are you talking about so this is not serious and I have no interest in making anyone feel Better than playing your stupid game yeah and and it it makes this makes a hell of a lot of sense to me however the relationship that people have with money supersedes a lot of things including the relationship they have with the M El in fact money is their identity what do you say to those people what are you asking when you ask me what do I say to them I'm

curious I'm curious if one of them if one if you're working with one of them well what it isn't about me saying Something to them I answer the question what do they want to know right so once again you see Mo and I'm not picking on you Mo but list I love it keep going no you know what's going on here do you see do you see you are providing a wonderful display and examination of just how conditioned human beings have become because the real the the the the foundational question is so given that it

isn't even mentioned the foundational question is setting someone straight how Do you make them uh not feel that way how do you correct and fix their view how do you make them feel better you you didn't even ask that but you don't have to that's you ask the next level up assuming that that because that's a given right so when you asked me what would you tell the guy who has who you know who basically attached to money that's what you're asking okay you wanted me to fix the guy to make him unattached to money

right and the reason That you believe that is because you believe in shoulds and prescriptions you believe that he shouldn't be attached to them and that's because you believe in good and bad do you see do you see the lay I see Foundation of layers you know I would say if someone's attached to money what's the problem if someone's a heathen what's the problem now if the person says to me I have a massive problem this is eating me alive I genuinely One Way outs different Conversation different conversation but we live in a society where

the motivational speaker and the priest and the and the and the mindfulness expert and it's a quicker fix right what they're doing is they they throw confetti on people right oh you're you're sad here's a good way to not be sad anymore let me give you a hat right needs hit in the face with a sledgehammer because he is the one spreading the Corona virus the Corona Virus is not about Corona virus there's a far bigger Corona virus and that's called prescription that's that's Ebola times a thousand Corona virus is small well I mean it

obviously that type of person has to have a willingness to let go of what he or she believes right you know until you're ready to do that it's hard to take that next step of next level of seriousness that you talk about well I wouldn't even say it's a willingness I mean even that's Force I Would say it's an outright desire to do so and even even even the even this is really instructive no because willingness where'd that come from you came up with the word willingness that's a very it's a very revealing word you

came up with the word willingness because it reveals that someone doesn't really want to change and they better want to change if they want to get better that's once again forcing someone out of where they want to be based upon The idea that they should based upon the idea of good and bad right and wrong correct and incorrect that's where willingness comes from did you ever say they better be willing to eat chocolate ice cream no I haven't cuz there's no good or bad let the Heathen be a heathen leave him alone no one there

is no changing anyone there is no prescribing to anyone that is the that is the rule of society that is the the chaos of society that's that domain the the fact Of the matter is whatever one or two things I might have said that might have tickled one or two people at the the end of the day well let's be honest right I got a handful of years to live who knows maybe I got a day to live I don't know doesn't really matter but most of my most of my insights are going to die

with me and my insights in truth are not even my own they just came they just came they came from because their desire to learn the truth is astronomical but Even that came so none of it is self-created like I didn't create any of that but the number of people who really want who really want this level it's it's it's it's extraordinarily small and that isn't a bad thing or a good thing it's just the State of Affairs so honesty is staying the way things are not the way that they should be right so I'm

just trying to discover ways to get out of my own way right trying to discover ways so you know I Can identify those that those immersive things that I get out of my own mind don't your own way I'll tell you why what tell me you don't want to and no I did not say that you should you just don't want to but I do no you don't but I do okay pretend that I do listen listen stop if I put a camera on you right and I watched you and I and I and I

watched the video footage every night okay when I see a Person who all day is immersed you probably get out of his own way probably not no so that means you don't want it so you're wrong I must and must home that I did not imply in the least that you should I I agree clouds are white the sky is blue clouds shouldn't be black and the sky shouldn't be red the sky is blue clouds are white Mo does not want to get out of his own way and mo is not a bad person for

doing so MO is not unself Development motivated for being that's just where you are you don't want to get out of your own way it would there's a very very very huge massive fundamental tital R of difference Mo between want and would be nice if okay sure I get it so the guy who really wants to let's say you know start a company and become a billionaire and he goes and de and devotes his life to it and does it is he's not even the same zip code is the guy who says boy it sure

Wouldn't be nice if I got a billion dollars yeah I agree so all things begin and end with maniacal desire and the thing that you want in your life are precisely the things that you already have and you know how I know that because you have all right so I'm trying to process that however assume for a moment with me that I have a job right I have a job and I work 10 hours a day and so forth and so on and I really do have a Deep level of commitment to try to get

to this truth that we talk about right it may not be 247 but it may be you know something that's that I have a deep level of awareness of why would why would you look at that as something that hey I'm not ready for that what would cause you to think that despite the fact that I'm not committed 247 to it uh I'm not ready to kind of to reveal that person that Uh you know that that the truth reveals because there is something that everyone is ready for and that something is what they do

247 and is it doable when you actually have to get up and go to work every day for 10 hours a day would you consider that part of the 247 or do you have to abandon that nothing is doable nothing is doable it is only only the things that you have no choice but to do or do everything else is not Do there is something in your life that you do 24 hours a day without without counting the hours there are things in your life that you do without even thinking every single day every single

night mhm you never say is it doable to do that you only say is it doable to do things that you don't really want to do if I if I put a bunch of money in in an undisclosed location and you have a meeting at 5:00 and I tell you I I left You a whole bunch of money but it's only available at 5:00 are you going to and you're and you're and you're hungry for money you're starving and you need money are you going to say is it doable to get there 5:00 of course

not okay so that's my point you only ask the doable and is it okay if I practice 12 hours not 12 it's all nonsense it's all lies everyone is a liar and that isn't bad that's what they Are everyone's a liar so when when you think about so so basically we're all telling ourselves stories right and those stories are validating uh that we need to stay we need to stay in the in kind of in the path that we're on right now as opposed to be completely abandon that let go of that [ __ ]

and head towards the truth is it that desperation then that we're not we don't Have only if the desire for that is there there there's there's no like I'm on this path and I need to let go of this and go for the truth no no that's prescriptive if the the desire overwhelms the person to go through the truth then they'll automatically move in that direction if they do it because they should it's it's a waste of time yeah I agree I do agree that it's a waste of time right but but again as as

We've talked about in the past there's [ __ ] that's getting in the way that for whatever reason either we don't want to face or we can't identify or both right and and perhaps we haven't reached that level of desire to look deeper or to get into that immersive phase that you're talking about that would allow us to at least get a window into that and try to understand it what am not talking about a phe am not talking about getting to some stage Or some level I'm saying that everyone is obsessed with something and

the only thing that they will get in their life consistently is the thing that they're obsessed with everyone gets your obsession is truth yeah it is yeah that isn't that isn't a good thing you know that's not that's not good and Positive your life I didn't choose that right that it was it was a chosenness I never chose that I never I never sat down with the guidance counselor and said what would be good and fit my personality type what a bunch of crap that's an insult to a human organism no one chooses anything we

are chosen and for for for the for those people Capo who aspire to be Chosen at some point are they just going to feel it do they choose themselves do we do we make a decision to kill off the past and move in a different direction if the aspiration is that strong then they will not wait to be chosen if the aspiration is that strong they've already been chosen yeah I guess I guess that that's what separates it's all about self- honesty And the reason and it's not it's not human beings fault they're not self-honest

it's not it's that Society has condemned them which prevents them from being self-honest because if a person says you know I'm you know I you know I don't know I I don't uh think before I act fine okay society and they've internalized society which is the mind the mind is an Internalized Society what the mind is okay the mind come down upon them and say well you should always think before you act that totally wrong how can you not think before you do you know how much pain you have caused by not thinking before you

act and here's Five Steps From Now On make sure that you do it and then when you don't do it says and see I gave you a way to do it and you didn't even follow through you're just you're just bad right so when that Is the inv enironment when that is the micro environment and it's all based upon good or bad when the human being is imprisoned forever mhm he is imprisoned by the guillotine of Badness he is on the hook to become good and therefore he will follow any prescription or any rule which

gives him the self- image even in his own eyes of being good person and that is why he will not be Self honest including including you you I I guarantee you if I put a if I put a GoPro if I put a video camera on you and I watch you you're going to be doing a whole bunch of nonsense and then the first thing you're going to say right now is I know you're right I will that even that's nonsense if you really knew if you really knew that it was nonsense you wouldn't be

doing it but You don't know that's just lip service you don't know that's the beginning of self honesty not by me saying it to you but by you giving yourself the freedom to be able to acknowledge that inside yourself without the slightest bit of self- condemnation that is the beginning of the Holy gra and that exists nowhere in society not in the meditation Hall not in the retreat not not with the mindfulness Instructor not with the motivational speaker not even with the priest that exists nowhere so do you think all of us deal with this

self-image that's a lie then is that identity a lie is that is that just [ __ ] doesn't matter what it is the your first question was more honest because as soon as you ask if it's no good well that's just back to prescription what I said yeah it's no Good what are you okay all right well pretend I didn't say that you're going to say oh since I said it was no good you going to dissolve your self image in five minutes I didn't say that pretend I didn't say it okay so your first

question was valid is are we all just lying to ourselves through self-image the answer to that is yes now All That Remains is All That Remains is was where did that question come from was that a question for Listeners was that a question that was intellectual or did it tear your heart out it it was don't answer that question but you can't answer it right now you going put on the spot I'm not putting you on the spot every all the conversations are between you and me it isn't about condemnation it isn't about judgment it

isn't about me standing here and saying this because you're going to assume that I want you to say x and you're going to say x Because that's that's what you've been raised by the culture to do if you don't do it you're bad and here's five steps to get out of it if you don't do the five steps now you're really bad well guess what um there is no Badness first of all second of all the five steps don't work so you're screwed all the way around yeah so it's that validation the validation of right

or wrong that we're just stuck in that damn thinking well Just the belief just the belief that there is actually a right action or a right thought or a right thing to do that simply doesn't exist the fundament of Truth is so revolutionary that it so completely tears the most foundational elements of all that a human has taught he no longer knows which way is up he'll be afraid to even and say his own name in fear that even that may be a lie the human has has Drifted so deep into lies and untruths that

he shouldn't say a word everything is a Lie No One realizes the degree to which society has completely imprisoned and destroyed the fabric of the human organiz so capil are you at a point where you just totally ignore your mind oh that's a beautiful question um you know it doesn't matter I'm not going To go into the are you at a point stuff because then that gets into contests right let me let me just say this um in fact I was going to write a a said a scroll about um it the the mind is

not you and you didn't really hear me and you're not going to and it doesn't matter at at least at least it went through acoustic so what does that mean the mind Is not me I mean we hear we hear the Egos and you're not your thoughts and so forth and I know that's not you well everything that you think think that you know you don't the beliefs and opinions that you have are just are so laughably wrong that if if a god came out of the sky and You' believe him because he was God

and he showed you what this is the real truth you you would be dumbfounded of Just a ridiculously wrong and off talk so far from the truth you are all right so let let's let me kind of ask you two quick questions to end but where we started um and this this is kind of a philosophical question I've been kind of torn around in my head do you feel that the [ __ ] that's going on in the world with this Corona virus is this the wakeup call the collective needed to say that you've Been

so [ __ ] up for a long time it's time for you to shake out of this [ __ ] and maybe a few people will ultimately do do you think we've been waiting for this there's going to be Armageddon a thousand times over um this is not the beginning this has been going on in various forms forever right so once this thing has passed then basically much everyone we go back to the normal world but if you Might get to that level of seriousness that you're talking about yeah they might even with no coron

virus there's always some people out there who are cusp you know and a and a Brisk Wind Blows and it puts them over the edge but but answer to your question sure it might it might you know things that are extreme like I said things that are extreme um usually you know at least Have the potential to have some effect on some yes and and how does this help us come to grips with pain that's some self a new age what do what is that what it mean come to GPS with pain what do you

want learn how to deal with it and not not run away from it to deal with shouldn't that's like that's those are like deal with is a fighting word I mean you know it's like taking the Palestinian flag to the Israelis come on deal with right what you want to deal with i i how understand it a real about everything against dealing with if if you have cancer you want to deal with it you want to deal with cancer no I want to kick its ass you want how do you how do someone feel better

if they're in pain I don't care AG great okay so if if you if you if you hit him in the arm arms going to hurt and then you alleviate the arm with some Bomb tomorrow they're going to hit the leg then the leg's going to hurt and the next day the head's going to come on it's fine go to the motivational speaker and the mindfulness expert and the you know meditate your life way go ahead and go Del a treat you and you'll have some massage therapist with the pon charity okay don't bring that

stff over you I don't care I I know you don't how about the understanding of it that that's just part of life do we understand that is That the suffering component the understanding the pain of suffering that that's just that you know for us that that's part of life that's part of you know that's part of our journey to the truth well you know tone speaks everything right no so that was a very that was an apologetic for well that's just part of life that's just okay and I'm not going to say and I'm and

I'm not I'm not going to say that you are right or wrong with That I'm going to say if someone says suffering is a part of life that's just what it is okay if someone says suffering is a part of life and I want to know really how to get really I I I want to understand it a totally different story I know that you're going to lack on to the the latter one because it's proper but you know it it it's life absolutely is suffering but it isn't just because the events of Life are

suffering life is suffering because of The illusions that we fall into as human beings the illusion of mind the illusion that we are ourselves the illusion of attachment all of these things being completely being attached to a notion of a self that is suffering and if a person did not have that then any he could have all the bad events happened to him and it wouldn't be affected by them so it isn't the events that are suffering the events are indeed suffering but but that is not the fundament of the Suffering you hey man I

I love so much just having these conversations and and hearing your perspective and whether you like it or not it impacts five six 10 of us so I always appreciate so uh so let's dive in I'm sure that you are uh probably done talking about the state of the world so I want to get into something I think would be useful to to people and certainly to me you and I talk a lot about DNA you know especially when it Comes to Athletics and I want to get your thoughts on whether or not you feel

that an entrepreneur is just wired to create you know is there do you sense that that that some entrepreneurs are just wired to be entrepreneurs yeah I mean there's a DNA for everyone so it it depends upon the person it isn't really just because someone's labeled an entrepreneur it it really depends upon the DNA of the individual regardless of his Title so when when you when when I hear a lot of people talk about he said extremely amazing time to use the the state of the world to create and to innovate and so forth and

so on here a lot of people talk about ideas very few of these things come to fruition do you feel like it's because most of the people out there lack that sincerity to to to do to follow through on their ideas you know I think it's just a I think the question really only pertains To the ones who for whatever reason uh have the compulsion to create um as opposed to you know why it is that the others don't I mean those who don't are not going to and those who do um can't help but

too so it is what it is I know that you you personally don't believe in a process or a technique but I'm going to ask this question anyway I was I spent several hours today talking to a group of really talented people uh business people and One of the things that they were talking the phrase that I heard probably 50 times during the hour and a half of of conversation was protect the process protect the process that a way we get out of this thing is to protect the process a way that we innovate is

to protect the process you don't believe in a process well I don't believe in anything um because it's not about belief you know human beings like to hang on to Terms and ideas and Concepts and they turn those into gods and they begin worshiping at the feet of a concept and so like the truth is whatever it is right it isn't about plucking one idea out and then worship worship worshiping at that Altar and so that's kind of what everyone does I mean vulnerability and process and this and the and and they they idolize the

term and it's never the term it's never it's never the word it's never the concept because if you if you Look at things through that lens you'll become very um myopic you won't see the whole picture so you don't if you're if you're beholden to ideas and Concepts um then you don't really have the eyes to see the entire truth well they use it a lot because of of athletes right that they sense that you you have you have to you have to understand something you know intelligence is seeing the pattern behind things and if

you if you look at The themes and you look at the patterns of human beings what they do is you know they try to get people to do X because they don't like why and when they when they say x they just they just basically go to the extreme of the X everything is a reaction to so the only reason that they mentioned process is because people started looking at results and then they got nervous about the result so then they created focus on the process as a direct knee-jerk Reaction to uh result so they

just replaced result with process and it it's it's all just a shell game it doesn't it isn't for sincere serious individuals you know it's so I don't want you worrying about the results so let's just I'm going to have you worry about the process as if that's the king now it isn't process or result I mean it's it's it's about finding out where you want to go it's not about it's not about worshiping words and that's where Everyone is you know this you know all these like I said you know be courageous and be vulnerable

and be prideful and this is all just nonsense idiot talk it's not reality it's it's just turning the English language um into of dami gods to follow what do you what do you think about when you hear that because obviously I mean we have probably heard more about resilience and courage and vulnerability over the last month and a half than you know in a long time but They are buzzword in business do you just not think about that well I I think I well I think you know there's no good or bad wrong or right

just there's just the truth and the truth is that very very very very very very very few human beings on this planet are looking for the truth and it isn't a bad thing or a good thing and and when a person is not looking for the truth then all of these side effects and circumstances um however they manifest Themselves such as worshiping words and ideas and Concepts uh and all these things those are the natural result of not seeking the truth and there like I said it's must be critically understood that it isn't about the

fact that you should seek the truth that's just the way it is and and and the truth typically lives outside of your mind right like you never really see well well well well no I don't I don't Know I think that's I think that's sort of a mind generated statement because and that's kind of mind saying don't bother because it's so far outside your mind that you're never going to get to it so because of that let's just stick with the status quo and so it really it it you know I can't stress and emphasize

enough I mean I can't scream from the rooftops enough that it isn't about seeking the truth um it's just about who you are and if that's your DNA that's What you're going to do and if it's not there's no reason in having a conversation there's really not I mean because there's no point in talking to that kind of that type of individual at least not for me um that's not what I'm interested in I I'm not interested in explaining to someone why they don't seek the truth and and in any in any you know clever

shape or form suggesting that they should but you but you inspire some of us to to to at least To start to think like that well well well well okay fine but let's let's just be honest Mo right let's just be frankly honest if we may um if I did Inspire that then I wouldn't get these kind of questions right if I really inspired you let's say that I inspired you and I don't mean to and I'm not saying that I'm worthy of inspiring anyone but let's just say by some accident that I did then

I don't think that these would be the type of questions that would Naturally Blossom inside of you right most most importantly most importantly and like I said I'm just we're just having a really you know there's no reason having a podcast about crap like all the rest of them all right we're going to talk honestly now right I love it okay so so there so they're really and it isn't about me condemning you or any I'm just speaking openly here um it's it's if if you really wanted the truth and if that really was what

you Were inspired to do then I think it would be all about you I think that that your questions would would arise in a way that would help you get to the truth and the idea of helping quote Society or the listeners or the audience or the world while while they may be on the other line listening so to speak um that wouldn't be where your Allegiance is because the allegiance is never to the other the allegiance is never to the world those are all just those are just Madeup manufactured ideas um in the form

of ego it really is if if it's about the person himself if that person is truly genuinely inspired just because they are then the the the quality of the question that they ask will reflect that well I have to tell you that I feel like I have grown infinitely from the standpoint of this whole notion of helping people and you know and you kind of have have kind of imprinted it in my mind to just be Very conscious of that so as I think about it it's hard for me to let go of what is

it that we can have conversations around certainly that could help me but help others at the same time I I understand that at some point I personally have to say and know what here are some things that I need to stop doing in order to get to I I I I don't know I I kind of perhaps would say that it isn't about you stopping anything I think that the stopping Happens by itself and I think all things are a an offshoot of realization and understanding and so it isn't that you have to stop anything

because that would be false and that would be just be a reaction to something else so it it really is the understanding that if for what whatever reason someone is really desirous of helping someone else and let's say that that let's say that for whatever reason that desire to really really Genuinely uh and organically help other people was was really deep and sincere in a human being then the only way to really help anyone else is to understand yourself I get it because because everyone is in the same boat every human being rich poor any

country that they live in any Village all human beings suffer from the same plight all human beings um go through the same types of assaults from the mind in the form of anxiety and fear and concern and anger And uh emotional upheaval and uncertainty and all of these things and and so no one's really unique in that everyone every everyone everyone has to go through those storms and so that being the case then and it really is about um uh having the genuiness to go through that storm for yourself and if someone was going to

learn and become inspired or whatever it may be then that will be that will come from not you trying to help them but you essentially Uh you know finding that within yourself when do you get a gauge of that level of sincerity or seriousness within yourself what do you mean there's a part of you that feels like I I have an incredible amount of seriousness or sincerity and I'm trying to kind of think within the context of of how you think to truly for for my own well-being try to understand my own truth a lot

of times I'm conflicted between is that narrative going on in my head or is that Sincerity in the way that you look at it yes so um perhaps the safest response is to say that it's always a narrative and it's and it and if it's sincerity it's in sincerity in the willingness to understand that it's all a narrative as opposed to trying to dissect out the pieces that are true versus false I think understanding that they're it's all false and the only sincerity is the thing that um compels you to do what you Do because

whatever you whatever action that you take that is your natural desire that will what you do is a reflection of what you really feel inside and so that is a much better gauge than um sort of intellectual conversations with yourself about whether something is sincere or not and is that two things I want to bring up here what one of the things that you wrote not too long ago that really got me thinking about that was When we talked about the difference between somebody who's a superstar at what they do and one who struggles um

you know and it's the person who is a superstar enjoys being a superstar the other person enjoys the struggle and and I think you made a comment that if there's only one person in you know the Twitter universe that understands that um is that what we're talking about here well I I was saying that there might be only one person in the Twitter universe Who understands the messages that come onto my Twitter account it wasn't I wasn't talking specifically about that statement um you know the messages that you know that appear on the Twitter account

really are you know a lot of them are cryptic and a lot of them are um they are you know they can be difficult to understand but but but that's but you know everything has to be stated in its raw form and whoever's sort of ready to hear it is and who's Not is not and so it isn't about dumbing things down for the public in the masses um I have no interest in that uh that's you know Society is saturated with you know catering to the masses and so for me it it really it

isn't you know those messages aren put out to change anyone or to you know make and someone you know follow my way of doing things or to teach anyone they just they just are and um and and because they're not dumbed down um then it really requires a reach On the part of the individual uh to want to understand them and not that they should but if for whatever crazy reason they're compelled to then so be it um so it isn't it isn't about bending down and giving to the poor so to speak um it

is it is you know the the poor man is most helped when he's inspired he is most helped um when he is compelled to to get up onto his own two feet because that will last him for the rest of his life uh handouts Don't so and and once again I must be clear I'm not doing this because I think this is better for Humanity I'm not doing this because I think this is good for you for you to be able to reach as opposed to me just to give it to you I'm not doing

it for you um it just sort of comes and it appears on the page but and that's what I appreciate so much about it but this statement really did get me thinking the difference between a superstar athlete the one who struggles Throughout his career is the one who enjoys being a superstar and the other enjoys a struggle so is that telling me that the overwhelming majority of the world just loves to live in misery well there is great comfort in misery and there's nothing wrong with living in misery um and there there's no judgment where

is the comfort in misery well familiarity you know where whatever someone is most accustomed to that's the home that a human being has built and so In that home he or she knows where the furniture is he or she knows that even if the lights are turned off he or she knows which Hall to walk down and then where exactly the bedroom is and where the library is and where the bathroom is without even having to see now if you place that person into a brand new house in a new city you know that's there's

great discomfort there and and by the way I must stop once again and I have all these disclaimers because I know Where people's minds go because they're conditioned by Society it isn't it isn't good to feel discomfort it isn't good for you that that you should feel discomfort get out yeah that's all crap there's no you once again see I can't say two words without without a bumper sticker showing up and floating across the TV screen you know what I mean so um it it's there's no should there's no you should be uncomfortable no you

shouldn't you shouldn't do anything it isn't about Doing this or that um so but that's that's the reason why is you become comfortable according to what you're accustomed to and that's kind of the you know it's kind of that the idea from the Sha Shank Redemption right where the individual was in prison for 50 years and then didn't want to get let out because there was this big new world that the person had no idea how to you know how to live in uh and that's you know that was so-called Institutionalized and uh it's it's

very that's that's that's very emblematic of of uh of human beings it's funny that you say that I literally just rewatched that movie over the weekend so do you think that maybe the the the perhaps the biggest reason that gets in the way of us choosing to change is that that level of familiarity is acceptable to us it is but there's a tinge in your voice which says that you shouldn't be you know it's almost like everything that you say is a Is a is a lesson you know and and like so what if so

so so so I said so I say yes that that's correct I mean your implication is written on the wall which says thou shall not be comfortable and thou shalt you know what I mean it's it's so implicit in what you're saying and that's just the the the cultural conditioning of society it isn't about helping the audience whoever wants to get helped believe me they'll they will reach the way they have to reach they Will do what they have to do um but the more that you have to bend down uh and make up for

the lack of sincerity by you know the bending of your posture it's it's a waste of time and and and quite frankly not only is it a waste of time even if it worked it it's it's of no joy to me to do that it's boring you know there there's I have no interest in that so so let me ask you then between the the whole I know your your perspective on self-improvement right versus arrival So what I'm interested in now as I hear you say that is what do you call everything in between where

you are right now and that arrival destination where you know you're getting closer to the truth is that not progress is that not like what do you call that yeah so these are very very difficult conversations because the language that we're speaking um you know may be English but it's it's a whole different plane of of Of conversation you know it's kind of like when they say that you know God does not get sad or you know basically the only the idea of sadness is in the is in the human framework why would you even

apply sadness to God and the only reason that you would is because the only way that a human being can view things is through his own framework right so God God if he exists he might say well what is sadness I've never heard of that before right what do you Mean by that and so so when you say what do you call that I mean there's no the name that I give you you're going to apply it in the world of the culture and it's not going to have how you go how do you think

of that the in between so it isn't it isn't there is no in between there's only there's only the sincerity of the path that you are on so when someone is genuinely on the path of Truth he's on the he's on the path of Truth from the very first step when the person's on a path to prescription he's on description from the very first step and those paths do not meet so it's the nature of the path it isn't the progress bar and the reason that you have progress bars is because no one gets anywhere

and the reason that no one gets anywhere is because prescriptions don't get you anywhere and that doesn't mean that you should not follow prescriptions they just they they just don't and I I I Implore that no one take that to heart and say well I'm not going to follow prescriptions anymore that would be a waste of time it's about it's about if if you have the sincerity or the desire or the longing or the interest or the attraction to the idea of looking into prescriptions and how um they sabotage human beings and they simply are

have absolutely no possibility of getting anyone anywhere that is consistent or permanent then you will if you don't Then you don't but it isn't about me to say that you shouldn't follow prescriptions because that itself would be a prescription for of course I mean I I get that part of for you personally do you do you look at it as a path towards your own truth or do you look at it do you get up every day and you just know intellectually or you know however you want to think about it that that's your singular

mission in life and whatever comes through you that day is leading You towards that so imagine imagine a person who's Smitten by the stock market right wow so right so imagine this a person who just lives eats and breathes the stock market now the moment that he gets up you know he starts checking you know his portfolio starts looking at the stocks starts looking at the M Market starts looking at the Dow start looking at all these things and then on the TV he has the ticker going across the screen right and and he's got

the Wall Street Journal and he's got all the stuff so everything in his life you could never so for a person who's obsessed with the stock market and and by the please good or bad here I'm just making an example a person OB That's not healthy yeah well what do you mean this look be being obsessed with the stock market is is you know very detrimental to your health nothing is detrimental to anything if you're if you're if you're obsessed with uh you know Self-improvement that isn't healthy either they're all dead end so it doesn't

really matter so but if you so imagine this guy if you if you take a cross-section of any point of his day there is never a time that he is either looking or thinking about the stock market and so that is his path that wasn't that wasn't even consciously chosen it chose him sure so it's the same thing with the truth so it isn't it isn't you know a person who is obsessed With the truth he never he never leaves that so even if he goes to buy a gallon of milk he's thinking about truth

and and that's why that's why it is it is really counterproductive and really of of no useful uh of no value for someone to say well you know uh well how often do you think about truth and do you um you know how many times a day do you think about it the person who's obsess with truth he never leaves it never leaves it that's why all these part-time Spirituality things you know I'm going to go meditate for an hour or 20 minutes and then I'm going to go see this over here you know those

things once again they're not wrong they're not wrong you're not killing anybody they're not wrong wrong right well even killing someone's not wrong but that's another podcast but but but but they're not you know wrong it's just it's just that's that's prescriptive and even being prescriptive is not wrong it's just that That won't get you anywhere and even that's not wrong it's just if someone really wants to get there for that rare person who really wants to get there and to arrive and has gotten sidetracked by the misinformation that prescription ion is the way to

get there then that person may benefit from knowing and and experimenting with the idea that prescription will not get him there because because quite frankly for the most people They Don't Really Care the Prescription won't get them there because they're only looking to get anywhere right they enjoy as you said the process they enjoy the practicing right they enjoy the this is part of my day and I go exercise over here and I go see the meditation instructor over here and I got my yoga man over here and there's nothing wrong I'm not belittling them

that's just what they do so they're not interested in an arrival so for them it really is of no consequence to know That prescription is not the way because that isn't they actually seek prescription that's what they actually want so this is for the one who really wants to arrive but has gotten sidetracked and do you get a sense of that arrival when the things that used to arise in your mind don't arise anymore do you know that yes yes is that kind of how this what you start to feel yes yeah something within you

begins to transform and it happens all by itself And and it's all about it's all about exposure if you are only exposed to One Thing One Thing meaning one way which is the prescription way that's all you will know that's you you what else would there be and that's why it's it is such an antithetical concept for most it's a it's a tectonic shift concept that is it's it's most insane what do you mean there is no how because when someone it's all that they've known for 40 50 60 80 years is the how and

there's been no No contrary view right no opposing view to that that there is or or even an alternative then naturally that's the only thing they're going to know capil does the writing that you do every day help you with your mind you know the writing the writing just comes from this ethereal place that I can't explain and it it really is it really is about the the IM everybody who reads it thinks it's poetic well you know the poetic you know if it I know if it happens to be Poetic but some deem it

poetic um that perhaps is a is an intersection of um the sort of the the speaking in tongues um you know unself conscious free flowing stream of of uh of internal feeling that's sort of being channeled from somewhere else intersected with some small facility of talent for the act of writing and so that maybe you know where some words might come from or or you know a sentence that you know one person may perhaps think is nicely Phrased you know I think it's the intersection of those two things and are you writing for yourself or

are you wri share with others yeah it's a good question um you know it really it really for me is about um the immersion and if I if I write to teach if I write to instruct if I write to even to write to help a write for another uh it it really isn't it really it really isn't a an out of body experience it becomes more like work and I have no interest in working Um so so it isn't you know I could say I I suppose you could say in some ways it's for

myself but it it's even beyond that I would say it's it's from Beyond myself somewhere um it just it just comes so it isn't it isn't you know well read this and then go implement this you know and um you know that's I know that's what the world is used to but that's not just not what this is it just comes from somewhere so it really isn't a for something or someone you know what I mean so it's definitely certainly not for an audience and you certainly I assume you're at a point where approval disapproval

you're completely agnostic to that yeah and and and I and I hate to even say that because because I don't want to take give a [ __ ] yeah I mean the thing is though it's true but I I don't I don't want to take ownership of that to say to imply like like look where I've arrived like I don't care what anyone thinks you know um I mean it's I Will say very very softly and almost apologetically that yeah I mean I don't really care if someone likes it or not or if they agree

with it or not in fact I don't like agreement um I don't I don't it doesn't interest me I mean to get and all these things sound so out of the mainstream right you know yeah I I get a lot of emails saying you know thank you you I guess you know changed my life and it wasn't me it was the words and if they if there was some it Was some communion between you and the words right it was that communion which which helped you in some way um but so I don't want to

say yeah yeah I don't care whether you like it or not um as if I'm taking ownership of some characteristic that I've successfully achieved it's it just happens to be that way that I I I'm not really interested in if someone likes it or not yes but I but I say it very softly not so that I won't be offensive I say it softly because I Don't want to have any ownership of any any characteristic that I can sort of of plant a flag and say this is what I've achieved i' I've I not to

be humble I just have no interest in that I know that and and I appreciate that and certainly like the comments that you get when people say that you changed or impact however you want to take a look at it of people's lives it certainly happens and I'm I'm always saying that to you but isn't that also where kind of Freedom lies is when you have that sense of independence from what people think and an obvious there's absolutely enormous that's what that's one of the the the greatest Milestones of Freedom that there is is to

be completely independent of the opinion of others and even more critically the next level is to be completely independent of the opinions of yourself do you analyze at all the relationship that you have with yourself I know it's an incredible Immersion and obsession with doing what you're doing but do you do you feel like you have a peaceful relationship with yourself you know I'm sort of so deep into the fibers of it that I that I don't really take a step back to say what you know where where it is so that I can put

a plaque on it you know what I mean so like there there's there's such a natural Obsession it's not good or bad there there just is there's such a natural Obsession for the arrival at Truth in all things that I never like stop and then take you know step back 10 ft and say what is the relationship of what we call call this piece what what would we call this uh you know not not really interested I mean it nothing is ever that clean right I mean even if you look at even if you look

at a river I mean the the purest River you'll have some places where it's murky and then you'll have some places where it's Crystal Clear and and the Murky part isn't trying to become clear there just happens to be maybe some seaweed in that area or a collection of rocks or a little bit of sediment which makes it look murky so it it it nothing is ever linear nothing is ever clean it's um everything everything is an immersive that which is genuine is an immersive process um and there really is no judgment as to whether

it's this or that you to me are in constant examination mode and as I was sharing With you on on this Zoom call this morning with with a couple of these leaders I could just sense in the tone of their language and in the verbage and the just what I see on camera is that they're not actually struggling with their companies they're struggling with themselves and that's what triggered me asking you that question it was it's very visible when you when you see somebody who has a really appears to have a really challenging relationship With

themselves well there are no business problems there are no Sports problems there are only human problems all conflict is self-conflict that's right right yeah that that's something that's probably been edged in my mind for a while a friend wanted to ask me to wanted me to ask you a question about friendship how do you look at friendship and how valuable is it to you that's a good question um you know like I'm not I'm not any standard right to which to By which to judge um so it's not about following anything that I you know

how I view things um it you know everyone has their own life and well well you know what I will say what I will say is this and and and before even saying it it's once again it's critical not to take it to heart because if you follow it and prescription eyesee it it's it's useless to you um if it connects with you on a non-intellectual level then so be it anything that you attach to in this life You'll pay a price and whether it's a a thing or whether it's a person and and you

just can't have a conversation with someone who responds to that by saying then what should I do should I not have any friends should I not the answer to that is just silence that you can't respond to that because that isn't a sincere question you know it isn't about if if that statement struck something in you then it did if it didn't then obviously it didn't if it Led to that kind of question so so the truth is that any form of attachment dependency or Reliance in any way upon any human being I don't care

if it's your children or your wife it doesn't matter I don't care if it's your parents I mean parents will go out of their way parents will give their lives for their children okay but if but if you but you have to understand that a human is a human first and that isn't to be compassionate that's just a fact a human Is a human before he is a father a mother a brother a sister a son whatever it may be is a human first and if we if we if you view humans as humans and

you understand that fundamentally a human will always always be a human first before he will be any role that he or she plays then you will understand that to attach yourselves to that human is to attach yourself based upon the role that you have created and to attach yourself Based upon the role that you have created you are going to um invite loads of misery because that is a square peg in a round hole you are viewing the human through the role you know child parent sister whatever it is but that isn't the allegiance of

the human the allegiance of a human is to his humanness to his freedom much more than it is to his role and I'm not saying that they won't be allegiance to the role but that won't come first that Primally on a primal basis that will not come first and that and that isn't good or bad that isn't right or wrong that makes so much sense to me if if you're sitting around with your boys having a conversation about friendships or relationships do you ever inject your own perspective or do you yeah that's a dangerous question

you know um yeah so it's what are you going to get if you talk to me right I mean I'm going to tell you what it is and you're probably Not going to be ready to hear it and that isn't a hierarchical thing it's just it's it's just it's going to be crazy talk right so yeah I've told I've told them both that you know you don't really have any friends there's you know at the end of the day the person that you can rely upon most is yourself you know and we'll be here to

help you but at the end of the day uh especially as an adolescent friendship is a disaster because um in because this the the Environment the culture and the generation in which we live in now is the single most degraded generation ever to walk the face of the Earth for sure and so if everyone perfect segue right if everyone's infected right by mass media and the language being used and the pop culture and the music which curses every other word and the movies that are you know put out from Hollywood that are so bad that

they're not even worth airtime and even the podcasts that Are put out they're all just prescription IED self-help jargon just garbage I'm sorry it just is man um and the books that are published on the bestseller list so when you live in a world in which 360 everything around you is of of harmful low quality than anything or person that you pluck out of that place is likely to be saturated with these infections so unless you happen to pluck that one in a million individual who renounces all of These things you're not going to pluck

Gandhi out of the just not all right so so naturally you have to look at the source if you go to a polluted Pond you're going to get polluted fish so it isn't so much about people it's about the environment it's about the culture if you happen to so-called befriend a person who lives in a remote Village in Africa or in India or somewhere you you can't say for sure but there's because that source is more pure and more and Less um touched by the hand of modernity then I would say there perhaps is a

certainly a more a higher likelihood that that individual is someone who will be a good influence upon you but societal urbanites of the modern culture you you're there a one in 100 million chance that you're going to befriend or surround yourself with those who are going to bring you to higher Heights in fact they're going to bring You to lower lows and since you become your environment uh regardless of your intentions or your efforts then it naturally is logical that so-called friendship and relations are a non-starter and they're very harmful does it surprise you that

that that people despite the fact that uh you are your purpose is not to help others gravitate to every word you say I'm not sure how much how many gravitate you Know I'm not sure um it I would certainly say that those people who are fed up with the status quo and the the traditional Norms uh and and Cultural Society uh certainly might find a home in in uh you know in this in this sort of approach um and in these words um but I would say that for the most it's it's too far outside

the mainstream to to really um perhaps catch their interest in any significant way I mean and and and once again what I just said has no Significance whatsoever because I have no idea how people feel should mean sure I I'll you know you I get the emails and I get the but that's once again I mean this there's uh there's they're not flatter to you the world no I mean and I say with all due respect because well I mean you know I mean you've asked me before you've asked me doesn't that make you feel

good isn't that awesome and I don't know I mean I it's I I would say it's good for them You know it isn't it isn't good or bad for me it's good for them it's it's it's helpful for them if if they happen to connect with something and it sparked something in them and it changed you know their way of living or existence whatever it may be that's that's great for them but like I don't I don't go on the lookout for those kind of emails and and responses on Twitter and you know like that's

you know and take like all this Pride from it um and once again I'm Not saying that that's like I'm so evolved that I don't I just want I my I I can only raise my hands I can only raise my hands and say listen I can't I just the interest isn't really there like it doesn't you know what I mean that's not why I did it so I don't take pride from that they happen to get something from the words it was a communion between the words and them and so be it I mean

what else can I say I I don't want to take ownership of Anything as if I'm going to stand tall and say yes that does not affect me and I don't want to own that I don't I don't I'm just describing the way that I feel all right let me let me ask you two more other quick things um again a couple kind of emerged today and this is again I really want your honest opinion on that um a lot of people were talking about you know this is a really great time to get in

you know to find your flow this is a really great time to Train your mind to get in the zone and so forth well but believe that hang on but but but stop stop right there this is a really great time to do all the as opposed to what as opposed to what time as opposed to being comfortable with normality which is get up and go to work and you know it doesn't matter that you know if this thing happens to spark something in you which lasts a lifetime fine but it's very likely that even

even if your mind drifted towards this is a Very good time to do X once the time changes you'll revert back sure so it's back to like you know New Year resolution type things you know what does that flow or in the zone mean to you personally is that is that it's a state of no mind and and and is that something that you find yourself there throughout the day or do you can you call that on demand if you find your mind cluttered yes I can but I I I ask for a thousand Apologies

for saying that because I just do I I it's very apologetic for me to say that I'm just answering your question uh directly um because because that is not that isn't an accomplishment that I'm proud of it's it's just you know it's just I kind of just found my my way there because um I had to find the way there you know it was it was it was that obsessive to me it was so that deep of a desire to me and therefore I did and that applies to Any human being whatever someone's really obsessed

by they'll get there and they'll find it because they there's no choice for them and so and so you know so I I say it apologetically because it's not some some kind of you know feather in the cap that I want to walk around with and I just don't but I I just answer your question directly well I appreciate it so let me end with this in in terms of the the Deep examination that you're constantly doing on yourself Are you primarily studying all the mistakes that you've made and trying to understand why they happened

and what's causing them well no I already know where all the mistakes happened so what what what are you doing then during that if you know mistake X happened are you just digging deeper into the layer of of why they happened no it's just about a genuine desire to understand the whole picture it's about a genuine and obsessive desire desire and a longing to Arrive at the truth about all things so mistakes are the natural result of lack of understanding and a lack of understanding is to a large and significant degree the natural result of

wanting to seek prescriptions instead of understanding so wherever um a person airs um that is you know a person functions according to his level of understanding and it's all an inside game meaning what it's all in your but that has many connotations you know Words are dangerous where what you what you know what you just said is going to be taken the culture away and therefore it's uh you know it's it's yes it is all internal it is it is not in other words it's not that you did this and you should have done that

right that that isn't the mistake the mistake is the mistake is to believe that there is a that that and once again I mean where are you going to go with that right I mean this Is so ridiculously offthe wall that you know we're on the other side of the Himalayas over here and we're talking to you know you know we're talking on this side of the Himalayas at the Foothills right so so so what are you going to do with that right to say there there is no this or that if if you're going

to if you're going to put a gun to someone's head and say you must say what wrong is okay well wrong is this is wrong and that is wrong you know the idea that you Believe that there's there's a right way is is wrong it's not truth so the understanding and the arrival at that understanding that it isn't about doing this or that that is the understanding that one does not have when they make error upon error it isn't because lack of intelligence and or anything else it isn't because Behavior or modification and Psychotherapy and

don't get me angry CU I don't want to go down that road you know all the Self-help stuff you know it's just isn't there it is about a fundamental lack of understanding as a result of a fundamental lack of the desire to understand I just I have to ask you this do you see generationally that the world evolves out of this situation that we're dealing with better off worse off the same well if it's better off it's going to revert so it doesn't really matter at at at at the end of the day it is

the you know This virus situation is just one more manifestation of just how far humans have drifted from their own nature so this is just the detail so what's different about war right I mean there's Wars all around the world yeah so if you look at every part of of Of Human Action all around the world you will see that the degradation of human beings is Manifest in every possible way this is just another detail this is just just another exhibit A and there's going to be more of this so this is just happens to

into the category of you know biological infection you know there's 100 categories and they're all degraded it's just that we haven't so no one is you know everyone's sort of desensitized to war because it's been going on for so long MH well this the virus thing is is sort of new to this scale especially and therefore it's at the Forefront because this category hasn't really been at Least you know in modern times um seen to this degree and so these are all just categories human the human civilization has has sunk so low because it isn't

because they did the wrong things and they need all this Kumbaya crap it's it's it's because it's because they have moved away from their fundamental nature and whenever you move away from nature catastrophe is the natural consequence well that's pretty anybody Who questions that uh it's about as clear as it comes listen man I it's always a highlight for me I always appreciate your perspective whether you like it or not and you know so tell me something new that you've recently learned that you didn't know before I think it relates to the nature of who

we believe ourselves to be um Beyond simply the idea of disenfranchising the ego but more fundamentally uh the concept of uh Frankly the concept of self-concept and the concept of self-image um it seems to govern our entire lives and I think that the fundamental realization of who one really is and more importantly who one and what one is not I think is truly at the foundation of living a true life as opposed to struggling through life so is it any surprise that that's the DI that you share in the opening Chapter of your new book

which you know this question Capal of who am I kind of seems to govern this whole shift of mindfulness this whole shift of spiritual thinking and certainly I know that um that's part of the the the deep thinking that you do about yourself but I know that you look at it from a different context how do we begin to answer that question it relates to the things that one can no longer accept as all right um There has to be a level of desperation or unbearability so to speak uh with regard to where one is

that really is the only impetus uh to to change direction in whatever facet of what whatever facet of Life One explores once something is no longer okay then um a path away from that is is sought so it really comes down to um where someone is with regard to uh one's level of desperation of no Longer wanting to experience the things that he or she experiences or the opposite which is uh no longer being able to be kept from the things that he or she wants to uh have or attain so is there really an

answer to it like in your own Journey have you answered that question for yourself or is it that constant Quest you know I don't really believe in constant quests because that very quickly turns into uh A procrastination and that's exactly um the fundament of human beings is to procrastinate about everything and so when someone says that I'm going to be a Perpetual student and always continue to learn and it's a constant Quest and it's a journey that has no end that there is way too much license there to never arrive anywhere which is precisely what

the Mind happens to want um because at the end of the day a human Being is a prison to his mind and the ultimate freedom is freedom from the mind and the freedom from the self so so it can't be a constant Quest there has to be an end point and the end point is the very inspiration the very motivation that gets one moving in the first place what's yours total freedom and and so from when did you know you got there because and it's one I haven't gotten there I haven't gotten there um this

is this is still a quest but it's by no means is a is an infinite Quest um there there very definitely better be an endpoint because uh it simply isn't okay um with me uh to to live in in any imprisoned sort of way to the the nuances and behaviors and machinations of the mind that simply isn't okay so so no I I haven't gotten there it's something that I'm it's something that is at the center uh of my Life it's it's my devotion well and I know that one of the approaches for all of

us to take is to start subtracting everything that isn't supposed to be there um from your perspective yes and no yes and no um uh the what you have just said is a true statement um the truth comes about largely through subtraction not through addition that is a true statement however the stating it in such a way you spoke it too easily Mo you said it too Easily and and when you say when when you say it too easily it immediately will be imbibed as a prescription um so then the people with the world told

to watch your thoughts and keep subtracting and keep saying I'm not that I'm not that and NTI NTI you know and and there the whole gang of gurus and the spiritualists come calling you know it it you can't you can't say it that easily because you have to be fully Cognizant of the fact the people who are listening to you are not the people themselves but it is their minds who are listening to you you and when the Mind listens to that that all you have to do is subtract keep subtracting um it will then

tell its possessor that uh or possesse that you see this is what you must do so go over in the corner and begin to subtract and that will be Its Own Prison this is why no one ever gets Anywhere so I I understand and the spirit of what you said but there must be extreme care in the way that we speak because we know that the mind is lurking behind every corner so I'm going to come back to that in a second but let me dive into this first question because you brought it up almost

invariably when I recommend your work and when I say your work your books your discourses Your your podcasts all the things that really kind of capture some of the essence of your thinking the first question that I get is I I I I think I get what he's talking about but what does he really mean when he talks about no prescriptions what do you really mean okay that's a good question um first it has to be recognized that if you follow the idea of no prescriptions And you say to yourself that I cannot follow a

prescription that I can't follow because it's a prescription that I can't follow because it's a prescription then that in itself becomes a prescription so it isn't about adopting the idea of no prescriptions then that becomes no better than anything else it really it comes down to understanding so it isn't it isn't me on some pulpit and you sitting below me and Me teaching and preaching to you we are sitting on the same side of the desk and we are conversing together so the reason that prescriptions get people into trouble is because a prescription serves only

its own end nobody can be prescribed his way to success nobody can be prescribed all the way to Enlightenment if they could if once again please don't believe me look at the evidence if one could then the Buddha's writings have been around for hundreds and hundreds of years uh who has gotten enlightened by reading any of the four noal truths and there are Zen temples and Buddhist temples all around the world um how many do you see or have heard of getting enlightened by visiting a Zen temple or a Buddhist Monastery or sitting and doing

meditation for 6 hours a day so if that were true then you could very easily be Prescribed to Enlightenment because the prescriptions all exists in Spades same thing with same thing with success If someone becomes a super successful CEO or investor or an artist or a singer or a professional athlete or whatever if if that could be bottled then they would just say well just do this and do this do this and you'll become as great as I am theyed to it's been that's right it's been tried again and again and again well how many

Michael Jordans do you see walking around how many tigers do you see walking around right so if that were true then that would be very easy to replicate but it isn't true that's why is it isn't there so we have to look at the evidence and then and there's the evidence for the fact that when you are told that this is what you must do then what will happen is that your mind will focus on the this it will focus upon the the Position of your left arm and how good your Lotus position is right

and how straight your back is and how many times you said the Mantra right and how much incest that did you actually burn and how many hours did you sit for and that becomes a new goal the prescription itself replaces the original goal and now you become subservient to doing the prescription and making that perfect as opposed to reaching somewhere so whenever you give someone a How to get there they will forever get to the how but they will never get to the there and our entire Society is based upon this is the five-step plan

these are the three next steps these are the 10 ways to become happy all these things they not only not only do they not work they can't work because no one can be prescribed his way to anything so how do how do we start to get there if you had me and 10 others Who said hey I don't need to tell you how much I appreciate what you do and your level of thinking but if you get a group of us in a room to say hey we want to learn from you we want to

get in this Pursuit where we can be the absolute best versions of ourselves what are we going to be working on you're not going to work on anything um it first and foremost is is this take this example if I drop you into a lake and you can't swim you are not going to ask me how to flail your arms somehow in some way until your arms Tire out and you don't have a single drop of energy left in your body you will do anything and everything necessary to get yourself to shore you're damn right

and the re and the reason that you will is not because you took flailing classes before you went to the lake the reason that you will is is Because the the key ingredient of the desperation to get to the shore was there the destination the desire the desperation creates the how it is not the other way around so if that's the case I mean there has to be I have to believe that the great majority of the world maybe they're not in that desperation mode but if I go out and ask 10 very successful people

and however they define success is this all There is for you I would bet you that all 10 would say no there is a next stage is that the desperation that we're looking for or how do you define that everyone is desperate for something exactly but very few people ever reach that level that you're talking about if any I think I don't I think the ones who are sufficiently desperate always Reach either by a serendipitous encounter with someone either by happening to be in the right place at the right time either by some idea that

comes into them from a place unknown whatever whenever someone has a sufficient sufficient level of Desire or desperation they don't not reach it you see I don't believe in Failure I I I fully expect people to fall along the way because everything is experimentation until you succeed but ultimate failure ultimate failure is only for those who were not desperate enough I just don't buy the idea that I give an individual was desperate enough and didn't get there I think that the universe is created in such a way that when there is a requisite level of

dep depos of desperation that things begin to happen That cannot be explained that Aid him in that process so I want you to give our listeners and I'm assuming here the people who are listening to this know about what we do and certainly know about your work because you know strategically the message that you've been sharing with people something that I've been promoting since we met two years ago give me an example of a before and after Of somebody that you worked with who started to get a glimpse of that I I don't know where

where that really goes Mo I mean um I just want people I could give you I could give you I came I could give you several examples but but but it you know I can't provide an explanation as to how those things happen so it it really becomes a fragment fragmentary conversation because um uh you know People have you know found you know an enormous sense of peace and uh they begin their behavior begins to drastically change and they you know but these things I hesitate greatly in mentioning the mentioning these things because I don't

want to sound like a brochure you know what I mean because I never tell anybody when I begin working with them this is this is what's this is what's going to happen this is what I'm going To promise you I I'm I'm just as surprised as anybody else how these things happen that they happen at all all I know for one thing which is the absolute fact is that when there is an uncompromising Pursuit and exploration of the truth about a given issue in a given person's life there are fundamental Physiologic Universal biologic psychological changes

that begin to happen the it's it's it's mystical almost I have no idea how it happens um but something within the human organism responds to uncompromising and direct truth so perhaps because it is so foreign in our world to talk about anything that is direct truth everything is superficial and cosmetic and Prescriptive that it is it is so foreign to delve into that sort of rarified um Arena that maybe that's why things begin to happen but they just do and I can't predict what's going to happen but that's what I've seen time and time again

so do you find that there's something missing in you know in that Quest because the next big question I get is what exactly is this truth that he's talking About so take you know it's it's crucial to begin with those things that are most acute in someone's life so wherever wherever one wants to go um he or she can only go there from where they currently are so so the most practical things that are happening in one's life be it a you know conflict with others or be it anxiety or depression or um whatever it

is um that's where we must begin and so the the exploration is not about how do we Lessen your anxiety the exploration is not about these are the things that you can do to make yourself feel better I have no interest in making anybody feel better I couldn't care less if you felt better that is not what I'm here to do because I know for a fact that whenever you feel better sooner or later you're going to feel worse again that's all part of the same game that isn't a game I'm interested in playing so

the real the Exploration of the truth comes in when you begin to dive deep into the very source and the Very root the unimaginable root of where those anxieties really come from without any expressed intent of trying to lessen their anxiety and that is fundamentally wildly different from what anyone is used to that isn't the world that we live in can you give me example of somebody's Truth that you worked with you know for instance you know this is an example I give in the book and it's a common example it happens with many many

people and it's um if someone if someone is angry at you and they slander you um the natural human reaction is to get upset and the the natural prescription is don't get upset um it's not what they say it's how you react it's not personal It's not about that's right that's right take five deep breaths and take you know this just dribble I mean it's almost it's almost shameful that people would you know say these things okay um it it really is you know the question isn't well how do I not get upset that isn't

the question the question is why did the upset heav why from where did it arise and where that arises from is that when someone is Slandered a part of them begins to entertain the fact that they are in fact what the other person called them so someone calls someone an idiot something inside the person begins to entertain the fact seriously that maybe you are an idiot and yeah and then and then that creates self-conflict because the other part of that person says well no I don't no I'm not and how can you mean himself Which

is really a conversation against the mind it's mind talking to mind um says well well no I'm not and the other part of the person says well maybe you are and that creates internal conflict and then that internal conflict manifests itself as anger now a a in order to prove that if someone called you uh a an genius no same thing genius would cause Self-conflict too because the part of the you was say you're not a genius okay so if someone calls if someone called you an elephant someone called you a horse right said you're

a horse well you wouldn't really get angry because there would be no part of you that would seriously entertain that you were a horse and therefore there would be no self-conflict and all conflict is self-conflict So that is a fundamentally different approach because it gets down to the truth it gets down to the source of where the upsetness so to speak arises as opposed to playing The Superficial and cosmetic game which essentially perpetuates the problem no one ever gets over anything by you saying it isn't about them it's it isn't about you it's about them

uh don't take it personally no one ever gets over no one ever gets that doesn't Cure anybody okay um so this does okay a con a constant revisiting of the source of one's problems eventually begins to create an understanding within a person which begins to free him from the problems he's impris to well if there's something that I have imprinted uh in my head from just all of the conversations we had is something that you said there is at all conflict is self-c conflict and I want to get to That in a minute but something

was triggered in my mind how come most of us need the approval of other people because we are not whole and therefore we look to any and all arenas in order to fill the holes within ourselves professional athletes face this all the time they need to win the winning just to win is one thing but no professional athlete wins just to Win everyone looks to the game looks to the field looks to the court in order to fill a ho within themselves and that is why the only one who can really play and the only

one who can really live is the one who arrives arrives whole when there is no need there's freedom is that part of so the game so so so the game doesn't become how do I Garner and accumulate Enough validation in order to patch up these holes the the real Pursuit becomes how do I become whole so that I no longer need to fill up any holes and what where do I start with that because one of the things obviously the great majority of your work starts and ends with the Mind Right assuming that this audience

understands that each of us at Some point or another maybe not all the time but at some point or another get in our own way of our own progress why do we get stuck there why do we get stuck with our mind because we believe the mind to be ourselves that sounds so damn easy um you know everything is easy it just depends upon one's level of Desire see there is no difficulty the The difficult is what is difficulty difficulty is making yourself do something that you don't really want to do that's difficult easy is

the congruence of what you're doing with what you really want to do see this is why everyone says this is so hard and well you know of course it's hard because it's all Penance everyone subscribes because you know from religion to education to parents toone Society's all been T Society has been teaching human beings for Millennia oh that that you have to pay that that you have to uh you have to you have to give Penance that you must suffer that you must work hard and bleed and sweat in order to get somewhere and even

if that were true what has happened is that man has fallen in love with the sweat and the blood and the struggle and he's forgotten all about Why he was struggling in the first place well the struggle becomes the Mantra of our life well struggle becomes the goal and that's exactly what we get back to your earlier question about prescriptions the prescription becomes a new goal that becomes a new God am I doing it correctly am I doing it long enough how long must I do it before it comes what does it take to change

course Desire sincerity seriousness without trying to be and what the hell do that look like it looks like the things that you've already attained in your life and the reason that you have them is because you couldn't live without them and the reason that you couldn't live without them is because you have them do you think people are afraid of this wholeness and freedom that you're Talking about do you do you think that the great majority of us are force ourselves to be happy with this struggle that this is kind of the way we're supposed

to live you know you're supposed to work really hard in the world you're suppos nothing is easy the path to the top is you know paved with really hard work is that just the world that we're creating for ourselves or is it in our heads um it's Conditioning um and there's no opposing view to the conditioning so I don't know what it is that I do but some it's interesting some have mentioned to me that what I provide for them and they're in a much better position to judge what I do than than I am

but um what it is I do for them is give them an opposing view a sort of sanctuary uh which is the only place That in their life they can go that is not full of the cultural conditioning when you when you only hear one loudspeaker um you you you can't really overcome that when that's all you hear when that's in the water when that's the food when that's in your ear when that's in front of your eyes day and night for decades upon decades How can any reasonable human being be Expected to to say

no that's every everything is wrong how can you have to be almost insane to seriously entertain that prospect that everything that you've heard is false it's all based upon prescriptions and lore and cultural conditioning once again you don't don't please don't believe anybody especially not me look at the Evidence so if you just take it all these things worked go ahead have you just taken a stand that regardless of what it is you're going to just question the oh I I I haven't taken a stand for me to take a stand would be to to

believe in what I believe I don't believe in what I believe I only believe in the evidence I don't need to take a stand you don't need to take a stand that the moon arises in the sky not on the ground you don't need to take a Stand you can go outside and look th this is this is years of of of observing and seeing and and witnessing the same patterns again and again and again and I'm not the only one the people who the people who arrive at the Pinnacle of their craft in any

field in any field they have an inkling of this too because they tend not to do what others do they tend to be contrarian they tend to be loners they tend to be against the Grain they tend to be part of The Fringe element that isn't by accident you know the the the common socializing um groupy is not the individual who becomes Elite he gets what everybody else gets so this is this is in to a to a small segment of the population this is not news that if you walk into any discipline any Arena

and you know nothing about the Arena whether it's engineering or medicine or sports or business or Finance whatever it is you can walk into any Arena knowing nothing about it and saying whatever are your prevailing dogmas and I have no idea what they are they're wrong because the majority view is always wrong the majority opinion is always wrong the people that you work with that get this and the people that you work With that share with you that the great contribution that you make is to be that opposing view what does that do to their

thinking you know you asked me too much about what the the people I'm receiving and think um I I have to I don't know I I I don't know things just happen you know I I don't I don't know I mean I I hear them say things and do things but you know once again if I go into that it sounds it sounds too um promotional you know What I mean uh and and I don't want to promote really anything it it it's it just Happ well you're not promoting anything because you're only going to

work with the people that you want to work with anyway right so it doesn't really well interestingly the people the people who end up coming the people who end up coming I mean everything seems to self- select right I mean so when people go to the website and they read my discourses Or they or they you know subscribe to my private discourses or they read the books and they're listening to the podcast it tends to self- select for a particular sort of DNA of individual and it it sort of it sort of shuns a more

worldly common thinking individual um so it very much self- selects so it isn't so the people who come tend to come already being relatively well vested In in what um in being in alignment with the things that uh that I subscrib to by virtue of having you know read all of these things before they came well speaking of that your latest discourse or maybe it was a couple weeks ago really speaks to that and and it's it really spoke to me because you've shared it in some context here where you talk about this whole idea

of the Superhuman and that all of us are Created equal by way of flesh and blood but it's the heart with us that differs greatly go into that a little bit if you remember what the hell you wrote I have no idea what discour you're talking about um um but the I'm I'm the statement that you just mentioned I'm hearing it for the first time I might have written it I don't remember um but but it's true it's it's I guess I must agree with myself if I wrote that um it it really comes down

to The DNA of a particular individual um you know what I do in some ways is for everyone and in some ways really isn't for everyone and when what I mean by that is um fundamentally we are all human beings and therefore um these are all uh these are the truth about things uh really arriving somewhere in one's life is really what we all seek but we have to first arrive at the place in which we are desirous of arriving there and so That is an evolutionary process within ourselves and I don't know why some

people um truly are are ready for such things and others are not um so in that sense it isn't for everyone because um many are going to read these things and be and consider it uh extraordinarily almost mystical and uh you know 180 degrees opposite of of of the world that they're used to living in and therefore it's just too much um so it really comes down to so yeah we Are all Flesh and Blood we are all trying to go to the same place by different names um but it really comes down to the

DNA of a particular individual uh that determines whether or not he is ready to pursue such a journey but as the old saying goes I assume you agree with the point of hey if you find yourself at the side of the majority if you find yourself following the crowd you're probably heading the wrong place True yes talk to me about how we deal with attachment at some point we all face it we all deal with it we're all dealing with it right now it's human how start to deal that mean that's I mean that that's

a wonderful question and it really um Mo you have really raised a a fundamental seat of um of human misery and human Strife I like that Human human misery I like that absolutely um you know the Buddhist the Buddhists say um you know do not be attached and the and the gurus say do not be attached and uh and and all all it's it's absolutely true but it's kind of like saying be present or just be and those are those are really more cosmetic you know silly comments um it isn't about not being attached because

you can't not be Something because if you try to not be something you will drift into prescription landh and you will get nowhere it is about seeing the belly of the Beast it is about seeing the eyes and the teeth and the glare you do not need to fix anything you need to see everything so when one truly sees only then does a journey towards Non-attachment even become possible a person who was trying to become unattached by prescriptive means it is not possible for him to even enter the journey to becoming unattached because he will

never Escape The Vortex of the prescription it is not about what do I do it is about seeing the devastation it is about seeing the shrapnel it is about seeing the Chaos that ensues on account of attachment not listening to anybody not hearing some book say that you should not be attached those things will not do anything for you because we as human beings do not act unless our backs are against a wall and the only way that our backs become against a wall is if we truly see knowledge is not how powerful enough to

make one Change neither is the empty idea of health health isn't enough there has to be something in it for me for the human and that something better be deep only then will he commit without trying to commit he will commit when he has no choice not because it's good for him well I bring that up because as we as we tape this you know there's a an Incredible catastrophe going on here in Southern California that we're living through right now you know people's homes are devastated these fires are going crazy uh lives you know

every day that the number of lives that are being lost is going up and I was having a conversation this morning with somebody who actually lost their home here in Malibu and um I was very impressed with the I don't want to say the lack of attachment but that it took a few days That but he came to grips with the fact that everything I had is gone I'm not happy about it but at least I'm still here and I have the capability to replace it and when you talk about about this issue with a

lot of people um it's a tough one it's a really tough one when they're going through what they're going through and that's why I wanted to get your perspective on it what message would you have for people that are going through that here right now where one Day you're sleeping in your bed and a couple of hours later everything that you own is gone there there's no message I can give there's no there's no message I can give to soothe someone or to make them feel better or to make them feel comfortable comforted or to

make the pain any less there's nothing I can say but is there something that you can say about this whole idea of attachment would be would we be as upset Or maybe upset as not the right word uh would we be as impacted if we were as attached well no but but that's but the only reason that you're asking that question is because a person's House burn down right exactly see what I want what I what I what I want what I want to hear you ask is okay let's say no one's house burned down

you wouldn't be asking me that question because it's easier to talk About it at that point because it's just a concept well well because well because I would argue I would argue that it's no small thing for someone's house to burn down and lose everything of course that's devastating it's no small thing it it shouldn't be taken lightly I'm all with that but I will say I will argue this it is far more devastating to live every day of one's life under the weight of attachment without even knowing it and I would say Most of

us are living like that absolutely so the question arises there you don't need to wait for someone's house to burn down the house has already burned down a thousand times over it is the recognition of what attachment has done to us as human beings on a fundamental daytoday level that is the real catastrophe what are we start not not according to not according to a particular event no matter how devastating it is which it is But it is far more devastating to live 70 years under the weight of attachment no doubt it ruins it ruins

it ruins the quality of one's life because one lives under fear anxiety pain misery Strife hope disappointment failure that that becomes part and parcel of one's life that becomes the only thing he knows what's the alternative the alternative is freedom Freedom from the Mind freedom from attachment freedom from seeking freedom from Hope freedom from wishing that tomorrow will be better than today and therefore never really arriving at tomorrow well we've definitely experienced that here for some people for lot of people who hasn't everyone experiences that everyone lives There the real tragedy isn't death the real

tragedy is life H what are some things that we can do to start to live a life of Freedom I'm not going to say get there because I don't think we're there yet but what are what are some steps that we can start to take so we can start to lose that well I don't think that there's a We anything there's no we there's probably there might be three people there might be three people who are listening to this podcast who might be ready at some point in their life okay so there's no we anything

it really comes down to not doing anything at all it is it is understanding that your problems will never go Away no matter how elaborate the fix the technique or the methodology may be you cannot Escape your problems and because you cannot Escape your problems you will live a life of torment and anxiety interspersed by a few joyful moments that will be your life the only way out of that is for what I just said to absolutely not be okay all right so let me end with this What are you most optimistic about nothing I

don't believe in optimism what are you looking forward to nothing I'm not looking forward to anything I do not want I do not want tomorrow to bring me something because if I want that I'm going to keep looking over there so if I have a journey if I have a devotion it is to become 100% totally and completely free of all Imprisonments of my mind and on a scale of one to five where are you no I don't impossible question to answer I I I am five with regard to my level of devotion and is

that all that counts right now that's the only thing that really works all right well I'm going to cheat and ask you one more question people want to know do you set goals no do you believe in setting goals if You're running a company and you're running a public company you have to have some something for people to look forward to I think that relates to why you started it in the first place what is the thing that you truly want want to achieve a vision what is your arrival and that is a that is

not as easy as a question as it may sound of Course because the arrival has far more to do with the deepest sense of unmitigated satisfaction that it does with achieving a of pleasure that is I think that gets to the essence of the matter well that's pretty appropriate um obviously we can sit here for hours but I think most importantly what I hope that we did with this segment is address Some of the key questions that people have and you know I will continue to encourage anyone that uh listens to our work or subscribes

to our work to do yourself a favor and dig a little bit deeper into cil's work not only his books and his discourses but take some time to reflect to journal to really try to capture the messages that he's trying to tell because for me personally I mean the one thing that sticks to me is this Whole whole idea that you said all problems are problems of the mind there is no conflict everything is self-conflict I've tried to come to grips with that but you know I'm about as candid as anybody it's really difficult and

uh maybe I'm over complicating it but uh you know when I see the work that you do I'm inspired to try to get to that level of Desire that uh that you talk about so for people that are listen listening do you have Any parting words no how come I knew that was going to happen but I thought it might be fun for us to start about to talk a little bit about the Michael Jordan docu series that the world's talking about have you been uh keeping up with that um I've seen it does it

speak to you at all um I mean the the you know Jordan himself of what he achieved and and those kind of things I think is very uh Highly impressive and whenever you see that kind of mania that kind of um Obsession you know to become the best in the world there's always great things that come come from that and obviously you know Michael's done some really inspirational things what when you're watching it I guess it's been eight eight episodes now like what do you look for in something like that I mean obviously ly everybody

has an idea of of the greatness that This guy has but are you are you paying attention to certain things about maybe the manner in which he does what he does you know it's a good question because if you look at the exposition of people who have done great things in their life um it's just like anywhere else it's very difficult to find truth and the reason for that is it's very there really is no market for truth in that regard everyone's interested in sensationalism and so unfortunately Human be humans being humans they tend to

draw out the worst in people and so as a result all whenever you have books written or media done or all these things it really never is about the meaty things it's always about the sensationalism and you know lowest common denominator type type of type of stuff what what is what would be really intriguing is if people went into to you know if documentaries and books uh about people really went into not how many Records and how many wins I mean everyone knows that you can you can Google that and find that out in 5

minutes there's no reason to do a documentary about that I mean it really is about um you know the the the Genesis of the obsession the nature of the training the um uh what is it that drives a particular human being from a very very uh honest persp perspective as opposed to trying to give a lesson or trying to sensationalize and trying to Put on a pedestal and trying to do all of these things just to sell newspaper so to speak and uh unfortunately that really doesn't exist in today's today's world and that's because uh

the both the supply and the demand are chasing each other in other words the you know the the audience craves one type of sensationalism and then the media is a slave to that in order to sell more papers and so um no one's really interested in in the things that could Really benefit human human beings um as to what the truth actually was right they no one tells you the truth right they always tell you they they always tell you the sensationalized uh version so that it becomes more dramatic and so that more people will

buy the paper yeah the media is awful well well but yeah but I can't blame the media the media doesn't provide what human beings don't want so There's no way that I'll I'll blame the the media for that um the the the one you know the one who is willing to tell the truth is the one who's willing to go out of business and that actually is worth watching and um so I can I can actually come along with the idea of media responsibility but it really isn't responsibility but let's say that you had a

media you can't say Outlet because Any more than one person there's no truth I mean groups are nonsense so uh that's I that you had a rare individual who was interested who was obsessed with getting the truth out not sensationalism but the actual truth about a particular figure or an event or whatever it is knowing that he may not sell a lot of newspapers and hot dogs and that wasn't his driving force that would actually be very nourishing to human beings because number one finally we have a truth right Uh number two we have someone

who not try to sell Us sell us something on an idea you know there's no nothing wrong with selling something in fact it's worth 10 times more if it's truthful um uh but and if that happened then you would actually create an audience um who was enamored by that and you would actually teach people in a way uh to seek more of the truth as opposed to more sensationalism MH well obviously I can't help but think about you when I Watch it just knowing how you think and knowing the the conversations that we've had and

obviously capil no one would argue that Michael has an incredibly rare DNA but as everybody's talking I'm thinking about how you might be able to look at it from no you know his greatness is his greatness but I'm curious as to what someone like him is able to access to achieve that level of greatness that maybe the rest of us aren't willing to go there or perhaps it Seems elusive to us nothing is really elusive uh the only elusive implies that you really want it and that you can't get it and that's just not true

no one really want wants it and no and no one should want it and once again the audience that's listening to this shouldn't be listening it's not for them right I have nothing to say to them right I'm not I I once again we go through this theme I don't want to give Any lessons right I don't want any take-home messages that they should do um because the fact of the matter is is rare people are rare and to try to be like them is a waste of time um emulation is a waste of time

if if someone is really interested in something they will find themselves doing it they don't need a podcast to motivate them and if they do then that'll be gone that motivation will be gone by 5:00 P.m. well it's a little bit after 5: so hopefully it hasn't gone yet well it'll be five tomorrow so it doesn't matter it will be five tomorrow yeah so but it really isn't about lessons it's it's it's if you you know if if something that you if it's something that speaks to you it's speaks to you if it doesn't it

doesn't but there's no you should do this so so here's here's something that somebody once wanted me to ask you if Life has granted you a beautiful gift or Talent what is your obligation to use it nothing nothing no one has any obligation responsibility I knew you were going to say that about that word absolutely Yeah question makes me angry there's no obligation okay so let's talk a little bit about that you you've been doing a lot of writing and you've been doing a lot of uh a lot of podcasts that uh you know really

do speak directly to the truth And one of the areas that you talk about is confidence and you take a look at the world today and there's a lot of people in the world who've been impacted that their confidence has been shaken over the past few months what has to happen for someone who's had these confidence shaken or who's had these bad defeats in life what do they have to go through to be able to restore that well everyone views things through the events of the world no I Don't once again there's nothing they can

there's nothing they can do to get the confidence there's nothing they can do nothing there's nothing they can do to get uh you know what Michael achieved nothing there's nothing they can do and the the reason there's nothing they can do is because nothing can be sprinkled upon anybody so once again you you did it and that's why I asked you if you heard me you don't you tend once again We're talking openly Mo I'm not I'm not bashing you apprciate it okay so we're talking openly and you tend to ask questions then I answer

the question then you go on to the next question and it's almost like you're in the middle of the next question before you even heard the response to the first one and it isn't that my words are so important and you listen to them but when you ask the next question it's asked as if you never heard the response to the first one and Therefore the framework hasn't changed it's still you're still asking to help people and I'm and I'm I don't want you to get better and I don't even want you to stop all

I'm saying is I'm not interested I'm not interested in helping anyone so how do you look at confidence what is it what does that even mean to you I don't think it's about where to get Confidence from I think I think it's about where One's desire what direction one's desire is in and if it even exists not that it should so at the at at a point when you're at the lowest point in your life yeah you're you're at the lowest point of your life always you're not in your lowest point of your life just

because of Corona you're always at the lowest point of your life just the detail you're always suffering show me a human being who Wasn't suffering it's just more details of suffering so this pickme up you know this boost thing this liven my mood it's it's an insult it's a waste I agree yeah and no I don't think don't think you do agree if you were tired of it if you were tired of it then I would say that you wouldn't have asked me the question if you were really tired of it you wouldn't have asked

me for for the pickme up well it's not a pickme up the Qu the idea is if someone's at the lowest point in their life how can how you know what can I say that will give them more confidence who cares whatever whatever if whatever someone needs in the lowest point and then they need it only then then whenever the so-called economy comes back and everything they'll be back to where their default state everyone's always falling the people who really get Somewhere are the ones who are trying to get there even when they're not falling

not when they have fallen then they look up to for for for a helping hand but would you still would you agree that there's there you know at some point somebody will use whatever crisis they are in their life to shake them enough to be able to pursue maybe a different yeah a crisis a crisis absolutely for the for for some people Cris a crisis can absolutely shake you And it can change you there's no question about it but that doesn't come from a pickme up the crisis the crisis itself will do that that doesn't

come from that doesn't come from crisis plus prescription no there's only crisis if the crisis is going to do something it's going to be crisis equals change it's not going to be crisis plus prescription equals change I agree but it but at some point do you think that you know when Somebody's dealing and and I've got some people who were very good friends who've lost very significant businesses you it's very difficult not to assume that they're shaken that their confidence are shaken that their minds playing mind games with themselves and at some point they have

to pick themselves up it's it's their own responsibility all all of that is all of that is true why why wouldn't of course they would be shaken anyone Would but that's that's a that's a statement of fact but what becomes non-a is when you say what can you say to help them that that's that's that's a farce that's when everything you know that's when everything falls apart so let's not talk about helping them let's talk about the last time maybe you faced a crisis was there a turning point that enabled you to cross over to

the other side and just become a different version of yourself I don't Think it's about turning points I don't think it's about these Supernova type of you know um events that happen and then things change that's a that's a very that's a very uh it's a media myth that Everyone likes to ask and you know at what point in your life did you that's all just for cameras it's not true nothing ever happens in one point um it it the how crisis really Can um make a huge impact on someone's life is when they examine

the crisis when the crisis makes them look inward as opposed to when the crisis makes them try to do something to feel better or to or to get out of the crisis so when someone and everyone is having crisis after crisis after crisis and the more that one becomes acutely aware of the fact that he is having one crisis After another that is the person whom it will have a the possibility of a more lasting impact on as opposed to the person who says this is my latest crisis how can I get out of it

so there there there it's an internal examination yeah but it's but it's not a do it's not a doing I don't want no it's not about internal exam everything that you say drips with the blood of doing right it's an internal so now go internally examine I mean it's no I'm Saying the person who does is the person who can um who has the possibility of achieving a lasting benefit um from a crisis the person who does not the person who was told to do not the person who was suggested that they should do the

person who already does not because they were told to but because something in them just did but don't you think that at some point if somebody's listening to something or reading something that you Did and that ignites that flame if it if it ignites if it ignites the flame that's only because they were at a ready certain degree of of internal Evolution to where it ignites you are correct um there are things that can get someone over the hill and over the hump that is correct that does absolutely does happen but it but but that

never comes but that'll come through the hearing of the words not through the hearing of any advice yeah well let's assume we're not Giving anybody advice we're having a conversation right and and but but all but all of your questions are are cented around advice no no no and I don't want you to help it I I just have to answer with silence then because not interested no well I I appreciate that right I I really do appreciate it and and the reason that I can't help it is because I I immediately start to picture

people who Are dealing with [ __ ] if there's anything we could do to to at least offer some insight forg advice it would help so okay let me ask you let me ask you something about the questions that you're asking yourself when you're when you're getting closer to that sense of Freedom or the truth give me an example of some of the questions that you're asking yourself let's let's let's let's let's talk the truth okay let's let's talk the truth okay the vast Majority 99 8% mhm okay so now it's maybe it's maybe it's

99.9 doesn't matter of the people listening and of the people all the people in the world are going to die never having arrived at truth are going to die never having arrived at wholeness or realization or whatever the word is and whatever the word is in their own words whatever that Thing is and they may call it happiness they may call it peace whatever the word is everyone virtually everyone is going to die um not having got that thing in any consistent or sustainable fashion okay so if that is the case then it really is

only about speaking the truth and not trying to help because if you try to help you are sprinkling it upon the Unhelpable and that's why these advice and what do you recommend and how can we help so and so it's it's just it's just not true it's not true and if it isn't true well then why waste time doing it right so I would say that the the most impactful thing about this podcast for instance would not be about the people it would be about you mhm not that you need help not that you should

Change that's why I'm doing it no you're not because every single question is about the people that's just not true it's just not true and I'm not saying that you should I'm just saying that's just that is not to say that's why you're doing it the the the your behavior speaks otherwise yeah it's it I'm I'm trying to speak for myself but at the same time not uh not think of others yeah there is no thinking of Others that sounds very nice but it's not no one thinks of others that thinking of others is just

more advice sprinkling everyone's in everyone's interested in themselves that's way everyone's wired there's no thing no such thing is selfish or unselfish everyone is wired um to view and to seek and to biologically crave their own sense of well-being so when you're when you're recording your solo Podcasts what are you are you talking the latest ones you the latest are you talking to yourself yeah or what what is there's there's some wonderful topics there are these are you having conversations with yourself and just sharing it with others what well what I'm doing I'm not really

sharing I'm I enjoy taking a topic and then um basically getting a dart and throwing it directly into the heart of that topic I Enjoy I enjoy um that Discovery I enjoy that no fluff no intro music right No Nonsense uh in fact at some point those direct truth podcasts probably will be 30 seconds long because there will be so there won't be a single wasted letter CU there's no time to waste um just just what it says direct truth no fluff no no time Waste no intro no talk about obvious nonsense that everyone already

knows get to the point in and out this is what it is not that you should do it not that you shouldn't do it couldn't care less if you change doesn't bother me one bit if you don't change doesn't bother me one bit but I like the communion I enjoy the communion between the topic and the absolute raw direct truth of that topic so ignoring anyone who might be Listening and theoretically you're just basically having a conversation with yourself and if somebody likes it or or listens great if they don't they don't I don't know

who I'm having a conversation with all I'm saying is that I am just uh I just enjoy the the the throwing of that Arrow Into the Heart of that topic and and do you do any preparation no so you show up on the top and then you just go yeah it just I don't it isn't so much That I go it comes so can you give me a glimpse of what somebody could expect when and I've got several of them here that that I've put up in in front of me the first understanding to become

world class that topic just emerges in your head and you hit record and you just absolutely it's all there it's all there I'm not like I'm not reciting it it's just coming from somewhere else through me so what does what does that first Understanding look like for somebody who wants to be world class I don't even remember what I said I know that that's why I'm asking yeah um I don't know I can't answer that question I I wouldn't I wouldn't I don't even know what I said it you know everything I think that if

you if someone is truly serious they'll they'll get away from the house and the how-tos and they'll naturally be more inclined and more attracted to finding out what it is that they truly want First let me ask you about something that a lot of people are dealing with but I think more importantly that I'm interested and curious in how you I know that your preferred method of work is isolation and how you write in when you do these podcasts when you do these interviews but if you have to work with a team how do you

handle yourself you're making me you're making me cringe um what what what do you mean by you have to work with a team let's assume you get This amazing opportunity to work with a worldclass team of athletes that are five of them in a room right and they you know they're in a quest to win some amazing championship and you know they'd like to to have you kind of observe what they do and and maybe see what they can't see you know I don't think think that you can look at a group of people there's

not five if you have five people all in Chicago Bulls there's not five Michael Jordans there only one sure Yeah okay so so there's no way that I would talk to the other four the same way I talk to him that's why there's no there's no team I mean the they're they're they're technically they're technically is a team in the most mechanical sense um but it is the allegiance to each person's own role that and that individuality of that role which then by inference allows the quote team to Work and I think everybody sees that

but if you were their coach I don't think so I don't think everybody sees that I don't think so well I mean not not not for a second so you don't think that at least this docu Series has revealed that uh he was at a different Stratosphere than everybody else no but that's not what I said I'm talking about viewing the idea of Team through individuality as opposed to through team but if you're their coach wouldn't how do you handle That what what's what what's there to handle you got be you have to be specific

like you can't just say how do you hand handle what like it isn't you don't just open the door and say what do I do how do you handle a team meeting like let's say you guys had a shitty night before and you're talking but that's more specific like there's no handling of anything so so if if there was a if if there was a lack of Performance then it would come down to first of all um the lack of performance really doesn't have anything to do with the players asking them it is the coach

who's insightful and incisive um he will see the issues himself he won't need he will need their input only on a very specific basis and this this team meeting stuff I just this board meeting stuff it's I Know that it's just not it's it's I don't think you you say that you know those but you don't because you ask those very questions that you say you know about because how do you you can't escape it that's the that's the way the world is wired no if I was if I was the the Bulls I I

probably I may I may have a team meeting I may not I don't I don't know but I but there's no way that I would walk in there with the idea that that's Just the way the world I couldn't give a crap about the world if I was told if I was told that that you have to by the GM that you have to have a team meeting I I wouldn't I would I would leave like I don't it depends upon what you cannot not force things upon creativity upon art right so what that that's

the way it's done in fact if it's the way it's done that's totally wrong just by virtue of the the fact it's done that way Everything is wrong the way it's done so if anything you do the ex complete opposite first without even looking into it first do opposite so the way that you think is the way that everybody thinks you're just supposed to have a team meeting why just you're supposed to why could you're supposed to why could you're supposed to I I don't walk in with any supposed to I know you do you

know I I might I might Make them hang upside down from the you know from the ceiling I don't know what I would do I would but I don't have any preconceived things cuz I don't do things in conventional ways I believe I believe I believe in extracting art from the human and in order to extract art from a human you you cannot approach him in traditional ways because the mind will eat tradition up so nothing would be traditional we might so-called practice In a river I don't know whatever it requires the situation would dictate

to me and whatever arose Within Me organically that's what would happen when I when I when I go see a pro-athlete and this happened happens on a regular basis I know it does I have no idea what I'm going to say I have no briefcase I have no PowerPoint I have no clue I won't know if I if I'm if I go on a stage or if I do a podcast or if I talk I have no idea ever what I'm going To say but I never go in with this idea that team meeting is

a must why it's supposed to so I I reject the entire notion like out of the gate I can't even answer the question because the assumptions upon which it is based I don't consider as valid I think that I think that most team meetings I think the businesses waste billions on these stupid board meetings they're just a waste of time now I know what you're going to ask cuz Everyone's going to ask the same thing but it's not going to do you any good to hear anything because you're still locked into well that's the way

it's supposed to be and since we have to have a board meeting then you'll ask well if you don't have a board meeting then how can you ever get anything done well my point is if you have a board meeting how could you ever get anything done no long get anything done the the Inefficiencies the time waste is so catastrophic that the only reason that people aren't jumping off of buildings because of it is because they're all in the same boat everyone does it so it it is a it is a group psychosis well there's

some people some people are jumping off buildings but we don't well not enough no one sees that not enough so so so I want to get at how do you handle perfor repeated Poor performance issues with an athlete by finding the cause and is are you sitting there asking questions or are you observing um or both usually if I observe I can usually even if it's a sport that you you you don't routinely pay ATT nothing that's commonly hints the swimming coach right yeah yeah nothing yeah I don't the technicality of the sport is irrelevant

is totally Irrelevant it's very easy to see it's very it's it's not difficult to see what's going on at least to get to a fairly specific area and then from there when you need input from the individual then you then you really painstakingly go into his mind and you ask questions that turn his mind inside out and he begins to almost in a trans-like state give to you the the truth about what's really going on and as he gives it to you he Hears it himself now what are you going to do with that right

what are you going to put that on the on the bulletin board that's not going to that isn't how people think so most of these things that I say are like way out there because there's because they're so wildly divorced from convention they're not even the same zip code and that's why when you ask me conventional questions and you ask them In order to provide help to people it is not going to help them because both the assumptions that the questions are based upon are flawed and the thing that I'm going to say is not

going to be in their experience erience so the only person who can learn the truth is the one who has no preconceived notions he doesn't walk in saying since I know there has to be a team meeting okay that's a given that that's I'm not Getting rid of that now holding that firmly in place tell me what you would say in a team meeting I would say no well there no team meeting forget the assumptions I'm not saying I wouldn't have a team meeting I'm not saying I would of a team meeting what I am

rejecting is the assumptions that you have to yeah and hey man I totally get it I mean the overwhelming majority of them not only are a waste of time but a waste Of energy well if that was true then why do you have group meetings I don't have them as often as you think but yeah you're right you're right you don't right so no no no but but but but here's what here's what I'm trying to get across you're not wrong for doing so I'm say I I am saying that I am I am putting

your words back on you right so if you say that there most of them are a waste of time and yet You still have them that doesn't mean that you're a hypocrite not at all it's not about the doing it's not about the action that it is that if you really believed that they were a waste of time then you wouldn't be having them so the point is not that you're wrong for doing it or that you are not following your own advice all that nonsense it is the very fact that you do means that

you believe that they're worthy at times yeah and and as I'm Hearing you talk I'm thinking you know perhaps it's a talent issue perhaps that you know I don't have the world class team that's able to be self- sustaining and to be you know to to pursue their own greatness you know that's something yeah I mean and I don't think there's no world class team first of all there's a world class people there's no world class team um the good point so but it is that the individual has to be not has to be if

the individual is Completely outside the box and does things in a completely unconventional way then he has to be before those who are also uh given to unconventional things right and so the the the the the relationship the the between the two parties so to speak has to be on the same page DNA wise right so if the so-called team is wholly conventional and then you come in with total unconventional then you have one of two Choices either you cower or you do things the way you want to do in which case you probably leave

so so yeah that that that marriage has to be there right in one way or the other if your boys weren't your boys and their parents came to you and said hey we've got two kids who've got who we feel have the opportunity to do amazing things in golf and we'd like for you to coach them would you well the honest answer is I don't Know but what I will say is that there is in many ways a um it is it is UN to some degree it is unfortunate that they have me for a

father yeah I of course yeah you're always going to be speaking in their ear well I think distance is a I think distance and um unfamiliarity is has a definite place and so if if you happen to have come or some Discoveries have found you let's say uh some truths have found you that you've be you know they you've become privy to then it's actually helpful to have more distance um than to have more familiarity because uh the flow of that information is more effective so if they weren't family and you saw this in you

know the next version of Tiger Woods and their parents you were close to their parents and they wanted you to In whatever capacity to coach them would something like that appeal to you probably not number one they're kids um I don't I don't really coach kids number two uh the the things that I the places that I go one has to be ready to go and um very few are willing to to go there and if I have a parent to deal With that I'm going to have to explain some things and I don't want

to explain first of all they won't get it and I don't I don't I don't I don't want to have any any middlemen I don't deal with middlemen right right so um so the best people and they're very very rare the individuals who truly for whatever reason um are interested in learning and not just intellectually but they either because they've reached a certain point in their life by way of Age or they've reached a certain point in their life by way of circumstance where they have everything but then don't have anything so to speak um

or their just their DNA uh you know it leads them in that direction to really want to know before they die to not have to not waste a life to use every opportunity of whatever life you have left to not waste the remainder of it is something that has that for some People really grabs them by the throat and for which they're willing to do anything for that not to happen because they really value that I only have X number of years left and I really want my life to have gone somewhere I really want

to have experienced I really want to have arrived somewhere in my life so that it wasn't a total struggle the entire way with nothing to show for it so you don't think an 18 or a 20y old's ready for That mindset it depends upon the 18 or 20-y old but it's very rare um it's it's very rare and and particularly in today's environment I mean we've talked about this before today's you know alcohol guzzling environment of just just a very uh degraded human existence you know the the worst I think the worst conditions that um

any generation has ever seen the level of De degradation it's you got to be a pretty rare person to Overcome that yeah that that that that that sort of influence so do you ever think about success not really it's a pretty open question like how about wealth or money is that is that ever you don't really do anything about that right you don't talk much about it does that mean anything to you it I mean what's the truth the truth is that if you wish to live in society you Need money and money provides definitely

a lot of benefits um and allows you to do what you want to do but aside from that one truth it money doesn't really inspire me it's never a go for you no I mean it it it is from it you know money is there like it's a it's a you know it's a ghost in the corner right that everyone needs some right to live in the world um but just from just from that basic necessity standpoint Like there's nothing that I do that I'm driven by money to do absolutely not I mean that that

in fact I'm driven by you know if someone wants you know to read what I have or to whatever ever it is that that they should have skin in the game that means yeah that means something to me absolutely don't come to me asking stuff for free um but from the standpoint of you know me cashing a check I I I can't think of anything more uninspiring to Me just doesn't do it for me I'm not I'm not saying that's good or bad right that the person who's driven by money that's not bad I'm just

saying that just not that I it just isn't there well I think it's it's pretty clear and just for people who at least follow you and and have gotten to know you through your writing and so forth and when somebody does write a check to to you know whether it's to hear the podcast or whether to be a p part of your private Discourses I think what that means more than anything for you is that at least you have somebody who's willing to who's at least a little bit more serious than everybody else sure yes

that's right couple things that uh I read that I want you to comment on every person in your life is hindering you in ways that you will never know absolutely that's absolutely true in every way in every way you you you'll do trust and I guess and I and I Do I trust it depends what do you mean by trust trust the Integrity of some people around you I mean if if everybody's hindering you last time we talked a little bit about it from the standpoint of attachment right get it well there everyone everyone is

hindering you not because they're trying to physically block you they're hindering you because They're not of the DNA that's going to accelerate you that's how that's how they're they're hindering you not by what they do but by who they are so do you just not have any friends unless they fall into that point oh 1% who me yeah or do you mean like do you mean you like in general or do you mean are you asking me I'm asking you no I don't have any friends well they're and they're 0.001% right yeah I relationship I'm

I I'm a total loner hermit I mean the only difference is that I I literally I I don't live in a in a cave but you work with people but but I do live in a cave figure L right but you work with people people come to you I do but very little I I do I do but you know I think eventually that's going to go away too yeah I'm sure yeah I don't I don't really have a Lot of interest in talking to people um I I it for me it's it's it's very

much like my time is so taken um by the Devotion to ultimate truth and everything it's not a good thing like I'm not saying it's a good thing I really mean that it's not a good thing it just it wasn't my choice um but everything goes so deeply into that I really don't I don't really have An interest in anything else if I were to ask the boys how would they describe their dad how do you think they'd respond I think it's a very good question and I don't think that I'm fit to answer that

question I I don't know you don't really know what people would say you don't know you only know how you you only know how you think in your own totally completely biased way right as as a Human being you never really know what got across what did not get across um what what um impression was created and not that it matters right the truth of the matter is you're a huge part of their life yeah yeah but I I can't I'm not going down that road because these are like Good Housekeeping type articles it just

doesn't go anywhere you know every parent does for their kids okay every parent provides for their children every parent wants The best for their children there no no specialness here it's just a biological Drive I mean it you know um so there there's nothing special that I did I mean I'm it's very it's very easy to sort of fall into that idea of um what a parent has done for the children no matter how much time and so forth and how much of their life they've devoted and you know even if they devote their entire

life but that was all done because the Parent wanted to right it's not a it can't be viewed to the lens of good and bad and um and altruism versus selfishness um so I don't yeah this is one of those topics once again that it's it's um it's considered sacred but nothing is sacred I mean because it's sacred means that you put a wall around it and you don't really examine the real truth of it no matter how much it may be you know it may make you feel uncomfortable um but this idea that the

Parent is a huge part part of the child's life I think that's much more the case when they're small um but I don't I think the person who asks that question perhaps hasn't really seen life for what it is Mo I don't I don't I don't think people see I think people really have rose-colored glasses on life is not what you think your your life not just you I mean just a human being's life It's not it's not this 1 + 1 equals 2 and and I know you're going to agree with that but don't

agree so quickly like it's it's not this like you do all this good stuff and then they do all good for you and because you did good you it's not like that life is like this Jagged Edge that is uh the teas don't get cross necessarily and the eyes don't get dotted and you can give everything and get nothing so people don't like to look at it that Way because they like closure and they like to write textbooks in which the Bold type says that you know X leads to Y that just isn't reality capila

there's certain skills that you think best serves you in life what do you mean just are there's certain skills like when you think about you know the skills that we acquire and and I look at your kids and I look at my kids at their stage in life and you think about the skills that they need to Have to best serve them in the future do you ever think about that do you feel like there's certain skills that are going to be that are going to equip them to to have a better future than others

well the the question started off really nicely but then it became a teaching again pretend you you then you then you use the word equip right pretend you didn't hear that we we'll edit that one out so the um no don't edit it out because it's important for everyone to Hear that um yeah absolutely there is a skill and but that skill isn't really a a a physical skill it's an understanding and that is that all your friends are stupid and that you really don't have any friends and that all those who call you their

friend are not and that all those that you associate with are acquaintances and any Reliance upon Anyone is only going to lead you to Absolute pain I don't care how much of a Optimist you are and how much of your life you spend in the self-help section under positive thinking um that's just camouflage uh that's just damage control uh but even having said all that it won't do anything for anybody because even if someone cancelled all their friends after Hearing that it wouldn't do anything because they'd be doing it prescriptively secondly no one's ever going

to do that thirdly it is only the person who has had that experience to whom it could actually reach it reach me okay yeah that's just the absolute truth this idea of friendship and you know associations and I go to meet so and so and talk to so and so every one of those people will disappoint you on On a regular basis throughout your entire life and when you meet a new friend he's going to be the exact same way and what must be understood and I'm not saying this to be nice God forbid what

what must be understood is that um it is not their fault it is no one's fault no one is trying to be to disappoint you it is just that you have to view the human creature as the human Creature if you see a human creature as someone who is under the the category of friend then you will ascribe to him characteristics for which he is not capable therefore that can only result in disappointment so if if it's any one's fault it's the person's for ascribing that upon someone now it isn't even his fault it's not

a fault it's just a lack of understanding well I mean so so if a Young person understands that let's say by some you know Cosmic flash that the 02 1% no 0% okay 0% okay of the people that they call friend of the people that they lean upon that they depend upon that they hope to have a good time with and waste their lives um they are dragging them down they will lead only to disappointment net net result net result um if that was like by way of syringe being a you know able to be

Implanted in someone there's your so-called skill you have no idea of the plutonium balm magnitude of that skill well that disappointment a lot of times leads to anger that anger I mean leads to bad [ __ ] yeah it's all it's all in the same It's all under the same umbrella yeah all that pain Strife anxiety and then that leads to conflict and then absolutely yeah that whole that whole thing um being around other people is an incredible Liability and and no one should listen to that it's not going to help you to listen to

that I'm just speaking speaking the way things are but what it could do is help somebody start to examine their own life sure it could like that yeah it could absolutely the one who's had that experience especially so he doesn't have to take it on faith yeah I've had it yeah it's not Faith right it's truth right right it is It's just that everyone has experienced that it's just that they believe well around the those were just bad apples bad exactly and around the corner is the one and what they fail to see is that

they see humans as being different and they're not humans are all the same they're incredibly flawed and there's the and once once again that's why it's very difficult to listen to these things unless you're looking through the lenss of truth cuz if you Look through good and bad you're you're just an an outage individual you'll never get anywhere it I'm not saying anything bad about anyone it's not bad it's just the way it is you know dirt is dirty that's not bad you know look let me just ask a couple more things and we'll wrap

this one up we talk you talk a lot you talk a lot about a arrival right we ditched the journey a long time ago two years ago when we started this thing you talk a Lot about arrival so knowing that how do you think about the future is part of that arrival do you do you think about the next 2 3 4 10 years of your life in that manner or do every day is just you're just in the present well that in the present's really prescriptive um it's it no no I I don't view

a Ral as this chronological thing um it's a it's a qual ative uh arrival now at something yeah Like the impatience yeah it isn't if I do this for X number of years yeah that's not that's that's empty so you don't think about the future you don't ever no no no no no the only the the future really is just is death that's the future that's everyone's future there's no no Shamus right there right that's your future so the only future that you're talking about you're talking about like future for X number of years which

really isn't That yeah that's future compared to now but that isn't your future right people talk about future as if it's like their permanent future right the permanent future is death that's where everyone's headed yeah but there's a lot of avoidance in even having that conversation you know very few people I mean there you go again with the 0.1% you how many people do you do you want do you have a conversation with they want to talk about about death it's the Ultimate Reality well you can't talk to anyone about anything human beings are not

people that you talk to they're not ready to talk about anything except for you know what they did last night right or how good that restaurant is or how this stupid wine tastes I mean it just it's not even worth oxygen that's nonsense right I mean the the bulk of humanity is filler it's an insult to waste Humanity upon them I mean just think About it you go to these social events you talk nonsense to nonsense people you drink alcoholic substances to numb your mind till you don't even can't even see straight you slur your

speech then you go to some stupid job and talk about gossip over the water cooler right then you go and talk about you know well you made this and this investment and someone else only someone else made This it's it's beneath insect behavior that is not that to say that a human being is the most evolved creature yeah perhaps by way of potential but not by way of reality just look look all over social media right look in the newspapers look at just look at look at everything human beings are not evolved creatures the the

creation that he that the creation that created them is evolved but not them everyone's just an Idiot living in their own skin right it it's with the potential to become Grand but complete sellouts to that which created them just a slap in the face of nature it's disgusting you can't talk to anybody they're either full of outraged or or just yaap their mouth as soon as you say anything don't even want to hear anything they got these preconceived notions about everything You know they wave party Flags they these are not evolved creatures a slug is

more evolved you you laugh but you laugh because you're you're you're telling me the truth I get it man I get it I really do get it and that's that's why I appreciate you so much because I don't I don't ever have these types of conversations with anyone else is that why as human beings we're just always judging other people all the time you Know well judging others is just one little detail in the in the anood um it a human doesn't really want to get anywhere he just wants to accumulate he just wants to

self Adorn a human doesn't want really want truth he doesn't he doesn't want to arrive at um the glory of what he was made to be he wishes to um slide in the filth and the froth that is his life that is his mind he spends his life in nightclubs and bars and Social events and meetings I mean I mean and meetings and and nature and schools and all these places nature nature looks at that and it says I wasted my resources on that yeah you wouldn't be caught dead speak in a conference right well

I have no idea what I would do or not do um but like I I would not say that I would do this and I wouldn't do that but I'd have to kidnap you but but um I don't really do anything for like like people right I mean so I might do anything that would seem out of character but it would be done from an internal place because there was some exploration happening um that you know was satisfying on the inside not because I was trying to you know do something on the outside you know

you know in any kind of you know Showmanship or or to to Reach someone or anything like that or anything ego based yeah have you met anyone in your life who's reached the level of truth that you are well I've it I don't you see it's not about accomplishment Mo um it's about the sincerity of the desire so I would say that perhaps a more relevant uh and truthful question would be not have you met someone else who has Reached that but have you met someone else who wanted that to that level that's the real

question because when you because when no but that doesn't mean that they don't exist um but but because when you say have you met someone who reached that it implies that that can't be reached and um I think that's that's not a truthful message and I'm sure I'm 100% certain there are people somewhere in the world who are way way quote Beyond Whatever your you know hierarchy is um beyond what I've what I've done there's no reason to look at me in any kind of Shining Light or anything would you like to work with somebody

like Michael Jordan um I've never met Michael um he's not too far from you yeah [Music] um it no it really isn't about what I Would like to work with someone if he wanted to you know what I mean it really is about the communion it really is about um me being inspired by the um the inspiration of the individual as to where he or she wants to go or how what their DNA is or how deeply they really want to go into something um and How Deeply they want to arrive and how you know

it's being it's really being taken by that as opposed to I would like to work with X no I you don't have any You know I don't there's no one in the world that I would like to work with no one and just just real quick cuz I said I'd wrap up 10 minutes ago but if somebody came to you how do you determine whether or not somebody came to you that has a level of sincerity a level of seriousness certainly maybe not up to that Jordan level or tiger level how do you determine whether

or not you'll you'll agree to work with somebody like that well you feel it You'll feel it I mean you you'll feel the inspiration you'll feel the communion you'll feel the the connection of