Carlos Rafael Rivera | Composer: Griselda

[Music] hey everybody Welcome to a brand new film music media conversation I'm sitting with the amazing Emmy Grammy winning uh Carlos rapael Riva Carlos so great to see you great and a privilege to see you good sir it's been such a long time since we've gotten to talk and uh you know I know you're you're not in La that often so anytime I get a chance to to cross path it's a always So much fun for me so thank you so much for taking the time to do this yeah it's a blessing for me too

man so yeah let's do it let's do it this I'm just kidding so well to start off I think uh last time we talked probably was been a while ago but I I started asking this question I love to kick uh kick off the conversation with this um so take this conver take this question it's a very simple question but you can have a deeper meaning behind it You can just take it at face value but I'm curious as a person as a Storyteller as a musician uh as a human being you know what does

music mean to you I think it means the best um obviously not prepared for this question so um I just realized I don't know what to say I have no edifying contribution for the next 30 seconds um take your time take a take a pause take a beat it's fine we don't it just shows we don't Rehearse these things I'm throwing these at you fresh obviously yeah it's like hold on let me let me read my answer no um no I uh I think I do think that music is kind of uh it depends on

for some so many people it may mean certain things and for me it's meant different things throughout my life you know like uh yeah like it really is one of the first things that made me cry that I remember feeling like crying as a kid hearing like Ava Maria at a church or oh yeah And and trying to understand why I felt like why was I crying you know um yeah Movie music stuff or walk out of a film being aware of what music was doing as an audience member as a kid you know just

thinking about that stuff and of course I'm of the era of Star Wars and um Star Trek and you know the films and James Herer and Williams and Goldsmith and and so those things were quite affecting you know even Conan the Barbarian you know and yeah at at the Age of 11 or 12 I'm I'm making it film musicy as a conversation but it's that and of course all the rock and roll I grew up listening to all of those things are kind of a place that as you get older become a place of repose

a kind of like a nostalgic thing I like I've been doing a lot of 80s listening and 70s listening you know too I'm running a lot right I went back recently and I started listening to late Elvis like late Elvis Not like early Elvis and I'm really in love with like his late sound like right before he passed like there's some like melancholic tone to everything he's doing and I just I'm love with like a lot of his song that he recorded like before he passed away yeah some of the stuff that's great is how

the music itself changes for you as you change and how you right yeah you look at it a completely different light as you age the same with certain TV shows and Movies I go back and you re-watch as you age and you connect and see different things from different characters and different points of view yeah I feel that I I do feel that there's some aspects that you appreciate more there's some people some moments obviously what's really cool is now that I'm getting old enough that that the special effects I thought were great don't hold

you know like you probably pay attention now you're like I oh my God I didn't Know how bad that effect was and now you can really read it when you rewatch but I do think there's something about and a danger in a sense it almost I always feel like it's a danger to kind of fall back into that I I want to make sure it's almost like a vacation that I go do when I listen to this music as opposed to just purely exist and thrive on it because I feel like won't move forward or

like I'll be dead before my time in here or in here do you know what I mean There are people like I'm just let's say for Elvis for your example you know I'm Elvis all the way doesn't mean you're not but it doesn't mean it should be the only thing oh yeah absolutely yeah 100% no that's amazing so uh uh but I want to go back to kind of uh and I'm sure we've covered this in the past when we talked but you know I want to kind of start fresh and can for people who

are maybe just discovering your music and knowing you for the first time I'm Curious going back to your kind of or I always you know I think everyone grows up you talked about the rock and roll that you grew up listening to and kind of getting involved so I'm curious for music for you since music is part of you know you're you're an educator you're a composer I mean it's all in in your entire life when do you remember it entering your life was it like an aha moment when you were a child were you

surrounded by it where your parents kind Of uh you know enveloping you in music or did you discover it later in life and I was like oh I really want this to be part of who I am well I I remember my dad would was you know he would listen to Benny moday and all the Cuban uh uh singers songwriters or you know the music of his time was 50s Cuba you know he left Cuba in 601 I think and he left uh Revolution was in 59 so he was there for the first few years

fled with his family and went To Miami then to Washington and then met my mom had you know my sister my brother myself we moved to Miami and then Central America and all that you know what's interesting is you know there's a story you tell and it's like oh the music of my father but the thing is the music my father was a music I didn't want to hear because it was my parents yeah not cool you know you're it wasn't cool so he's listening to any and all this really cool Cuban music but I'm

Like oh whatever dude you know and I was like Boston you know I gotta listen to Boston those are like the bands and there the bands of my brother the B's Boston and then journey and then and then it became 80s bands like Judas Priest like early metal yeah and then it became heavy metal and all the bands that came with that and um I don't even know what the question was yeah when when music entered your life and like was like it was just were you already Thinking about this as I guess I guess

the better question is like when did this become just an interest and like oh I want this to be my career I want this to be like what I do for living well the thing is I think I don't I wasn't thinking living I I became we moved a lot so I happen to move every time like I'd make my friends and then my parents you know I was in Guatemala and I was in first grade and stuff and then second third grade and get to fourth grade and Then I have really good friends from

like you know elementary school and I get home from elementary school and my mom's washing dis she's like hey you know have you ever heard of Costa Rica I was like nope and she's like we're moving and then and then so we would move to Costa Rica and then we'd start over and I'd always land in the middle of the school year so that kind of adaptation was it is rough and and I think and and so you kind of adapt and You have to adapt a personality to adapt flee or die in no way

as you know the survival mechanism is are and so we moved to Costa Rica and then we moved to Panama and then back to Costa Rica so there's a lot of that but one thing is that I started to fall in love with music when my brother joined a band band and I was uh probably 12 or 11 12 and then my brother is like 16 so he's cool and I'm going to the band rehearsals not being wanted there because I'm 12 and He's cool and you know but he's playing the bass in a band

called radical trip yeah and they were playing all these really cool songs you know uh you know from Maric Clapton's cocaine to um whatever uh breaking the law by Judas priests like all that old stuff and i' in the garage going oh my god dude this is so amazing and then I started playing guitar and then we moved to Miami and then I had a lot of time to practice Yeah because when you move every time Those transitions happen you're the new kid in school you get home you have no social life you're you're just

home and so I would be playing guitar guitar guitar and then I I think it was the music like of Aussie Osborne and learning Randy rhods you know guitar solos my wife would love Aussie is her favorite like she actually met him and and has she got a tattoo he signed her arm and has it she has a tattoo well God God bless her man because I I prayed to God when I found out that Randy Rosa died I mean I came into it after he just you know passed and then I was starting to

play and is that I would I'd hoped his soul entered my B I was like at that place of like wanting him to be part of my life because I was so obsessed with his guitar playing it was brilliant and and the lyrics and all of those things you know the album covers were very controversial in a way because they sold albums for Azie but but the lyrics of Some of those things were were amazing there were song I forget which one is you got to believe in yourself or no one will believe in you

you know stuff like that crazy train is about where's a world going to right it's kind of these really introspective lyrics that you think oh it's all say it's not if you really listen to it and you can't kill rock and roll and Flying High Again well you know that's what it is but the music and the playing and the guitar playing Was always oh my gosh man it was always Transcendent to me and it was something that I just couldn't quite get my hands on so it became a goal to kind of learn all

of his guitar solos and I did I learned I learned the peak one for me was Revelation Mother Earth uh from the first album I think it's the end of side one and uh off blizzard of O and when I learned that solo it was very classical and I I achieved you know it's almost like in a video game when you achieve a Level like a you know you you level up you know and I would record myself playing and recorded on cassette and study it and listen and see the mistakes and my ear developed

a lot through that and the point is when I learned it and I realized I had finished it I had this realization that I hadn't written it like it wasn't something I had made that's when I started thinking of M I was never thinking of livelihood do you Know what I mean like right I'm going to grow up to be a composer cuz composer I they I did think this that that they were I was in Central America growing up I never thought it was like you know I've said this a lot before but I

did think that composers and musicians were another were in another world were in another Island they grew up in a country of musicians and that's where bands like Rush come from you know and well it was Canada but at the same time I did feel Like all of them came from a part music landia or something yeah so does that make sense oh absolutely yeah it was like almost I guess it was like almost like not even unattainable was just like I didn't come from there like it's not even in the my in my like

you know my field of view like 100% it would never happen and it wasn't like a Harry Potter like I can't be a wizard and you know what I mean it's none of that magical stuff it's just like it's I'm just There's no there's no such thing as me becoming one you know like you yeah you weren't you I guess I'm kind of the same way I'm like I'm not an optimist I'm not a pessimist I'm kind of a realist sometimes and it's just like realistically with the the odds and you kind of kind of

talk yourself out of things like oh what's the point of trying like what's the point I'm just going to enjoy what I'm doing here like that's completely like unattainable Something you know like yeah it really really true and I you know it wasn't until I moved to LA where where I thought that maybe this could really h i the first thing was transitioning into becoming a composer and I was taking accounting classes in college and then I heard the right of spring and on onic music appreciation class and I was like what is this and

then it was really kind of transformed it that really kind of got me going yeah and to studying it and I realized you could write that because I had a really interesting thing where the where the teacher Jay Brown was his name in Miami dat College was like you know showing the score of the ride of spring and then there was this big moment in the ride of spring that went and there was this big brass thing that goes drum and then the speaker I remember going wow and then he showed us the music and

then he at that moment he was walking around the classroom and When I saw that it was just two trombones literally doing a slide down like two notes bom and I saw that I was like oh that is like I did this equation of like weird connection and I was like wait that can be that can be written and musicians can play that back like I'm serious man it's like 101 of 101's like no idea and then the Beauty and the magic of that is what kind of turned me on to it and moving to

La is when I started to run into people that were Quote unquote famous I couldn't handle it I just couldn't understand that they were there in that room I don't know it's you moved to LA too so you probably the same thing I'm it's it's you get there and of course you're living in your hometown again saying another planet they come from Canada it's another planet you know so you're in Canada now you've arrived in Canada where all these composers are in LA but um and it's like it's like uh yeah you Grew up listening

to you know for me it was always like Hans like Hans was always my big inspiration when I was nine and and now I'm writing his liner notes and like talking with him and like producing Al and it's like I I think when I was on Hanmer live tour and I was filming because I made a little documentary of the rehearsals and I'm sitting in this giant Auditorium while they're rehearsing like Lion King and Leos is up there singing and I'm like What the hell am I how did I get in this room like who

let me in here like did you have the well up moment that like I did oh I was crying yeah I was because like was like can you go in the back and film a wide shot so I can just see the lighting like if you're filming and I'm just like yeah absolutely and I'm sitting there like just filming kind of a wide shot for him to review later and I'm by myself no one's around me and I'm just like yeah the the tear start coming I'm like what am I doing here yeah I think

that's the beauty of it because I think in a way and and I haven't lost that like i' I've never it's never been lost on me that I'm getting to do this at all like and I and I do feel like it's like a like it's an ethereal thing or ephemeral thing is a better word maybe and where where you know in in 5 years maybe no one will care what what I'm doing um or maybe I I I don't count on any of that other than right now I'm Getting to do it and I

don't know if that even makes sense no it makes yeah absolutely because it I you know it's funny because when when I left LA to move back before we started recording I told you we move back to Maryland and it was almost like I was like was that all a dream like I left Los Angeles and like there were with the decade I spent there that that even happened you know and then it's just like um and I like I you know then you realize like you need to Appreciate living in the moment more because

it's like once it's gone it's gone and you know things can change and you know the industry is going through changes now and like certain things that we're used to are changing and it's like and you just kind of go with the flow life will keep moving but always if you're in it and you're doing what you want to do I think it's really important to kind of take stop and be like wow this is this is incredible like you're We lucky we're lucky I mean we get to work in entertainment and it's you know

a lot of people want to and it's a it's a tough field and it's a competitive field and it's a you know hard I mean long hours everything and it's but it's like at the end of the day like I wouldn't trade it for anything you know no no no way me neither and that's that's that's beautifully sad B so yeah absolutely well um so I want to talk about because you mentioned you're in LA And then now you're you're based out of Miami and I think uh it's so refreshing to see a compos are

kind of seeing success and and having a home base that's not Los Angeles because I really do think the future of this town is other PL other cities around the world around the country and I think having everything everything has to be in La is such a backwards way of of looking at it and I think there's so much talent that you don't have to flock here to like Sure a lot of stuff happens here and this is where the business is but I want maybe talk about what made you decide to leave La what

made you want to go back to Miami and set up shop there and uh not have to feel the pressure to be in this town where everyone is you know well there's two stories I could say you know there's like the story that's like very insecure based and then kind of like I tell you just I nitpick around it skirt around and make it kind of Professional and at least to and me being faculty at the frost school music and I had an opportunity but man my wife had this killer job with her family we

had two kids in La I was doing okay I was coming up I was at the pass the conservatory teaching and I was at a at USC I I just got my doctoral degree in composition and I was starting to do like adjunct work at the school and I was like my goal was and the popular music program had started so I Was starting to teach there and I was there with the cut passing into Conservatory I stopped more of the private student stuff because I was just doing Academia I starting to kind of get

into that world and really establishing my roots I was doing classical music so writing chamber music getting some compositions going things were going well but um we had two kids my wife had a job opportunity in Miami with her family that um we couldn't say no to and So she had been following my dream and what we haven't talked about is that I got signed to Universal records in 2000 and then we got dropped in 2003 so I went through the Heartbreak of watching my dream die sure at you know by the time I'm 32

33 years old and then I had started up and went to do you know Academia was the goal for me anyway I was going to always teach you know and I do it now thank God but when we moved to Miami I didn't know where I was going to Work I I was just moving for her she had followed my dream it was time for me to do her it's all it's a very same to how we left La for Maryland my wife was working in public health and uh she had an amazing job and

it's my home state so I was familiar with it and that's why I kind of moved back but it was same thing where it's like yeah I didn't have any plan I was like thankfully I still kept my job and I was working remotely but all you feel detached still from Everything when you're just you know yeah I was terrified yeah dude I know know you were probably I was terrified and but we had been together so long and we had the children and it wasn't just for the kids it was for us it was

like and it was an actual upgrade it was like a level up in a different way because suddenly we had family support for the kids so my wife and I could go out on dates it's like hey who are you she's like who are you you know it's like it Really did help it's nice to meet you yeah it was it really did did did change things the better and then I was able and luckily I was able to get into the University of Miami to teach a class as an adjunct because they had a

popular music program that was starting the Bruce Hornsby creative American music program and Shelley Berg had worked at USC I called he forwarded me to Ray Sanchez and Ray Sanchez was starting this program up he goes yeah we could Use an adjunct and I was like oh thank God and then I started teaching this one class and it became two and I became a lecturer and then you know the 10 year track began like 7 years ago and so it's like um you know it's a long long story but moving to Miami wasn't like set

up shop in Miami cuz it sounds very very professional you know I got moved to Miami to set up shop and screw I was like dude we need it this was the move that had to happen for life to work for Us and for me personally was my better half and so when we go to Miami we ended up uh doing that and it was there I had already had the relationship with Scott Frank who is the guy who me for a walk on the Tombstones and eventually the Queen's Gambit that because of the relationship

I had formed in LA but um to answer the question Jesus man this is a long answer sorry no it's amazing answer well the the thing is like what really happened is that I don't think Had Co not happened that I would be working as much because I only Scott hired me all those years I was out of LA and I only had like one project was walk on the Tombstones no other project then it's Godless then I won like Awards but nobody hired me still and I would go on meetings and they're like where

are you base I was like Miami they're like you know that's anyway and I was like you know it was like kind of like one of those Things but but once everybody got in a box because they had to Sure Zoom became available it normalized remote work and since and and it coincided with Queen's Gambit coming out and so I had already established the system of working remotely because I had had to do it there was no other way for me to get jobs done so it became it became more normalized and for other people

to go you're in Miami oh it's cool you know can you come out for me I was like sure I'd love to if we need to go I'll fly out whatever but um but it that's a big thing that changed I think in the industry and as you were mentioning I think it made it it normalized it you know yeah absolutely I mean that I mean I moved I was able to work remote still uh my entire job at cartoon Studios and I'm still doing it I can't no one forc me to come back we

just actually missed La I know some people I think that's crazy like you know with the prices and The you know the city itself but I don't know there's something magical about this this place that I have a connection to and my wife too my wife's born and raised here and and uh yeah it's good to be back you know we're not we're not having kids so it's uh it was an easy trade-off to to thow to toss the big Suburban house and come back to an apartment but not not not many people would do

it but uh it though yeah and it's good to be back in the studio with People and and yeah I mean I think we all just go where we we feel were gravitate towards and life will take us in certain directions and and uh at the time it might seem like giving up or you know something like this but it always ends up as long as you you know I think it's all about having an optimistic attitude and just being a great person to collaborate with and as you mentioned you and Scott like that connection

has kept going and I mean you mentioned so Yeah it was uh you know A Walk Among the Tombstones which I remember that's how it was introduced to to your work of course that was your first feature and it was just like an amazing score and it's like wait this guy has not scored like a feature like you know like that you scoring this amazing Liam NES like film and and Scott is such an amazing writer and producer and director and and then you had Godless and then Queen's Gambit and of course now this year

you Have uh Monier Spade which is you know with clyve Owen on AMC so I mean you guys are keep you guys are continuing to work together so that's incredible so maybe that's a good way to jump into some of your work so like you know we're going to talk about Griselda but I just want to touch kind of on that Journey uh with Scott that you took and so now that you have moner Spade coming out what's what's the collaboration like now that has kind of evolved over Tombstone Godless Queen Gambit now is it

is it is it pretty much just uh getting to work with your friend is it pretty much like okay like do you have a shorthand at this point is it like easy or is it harder now that you know each other better and it's harder to kind of surprise each other maybe I don't know I'm curious I don't I actually don't know the answer because I do feel like um I could say there's a short there's definitely a short hand and I know where He's coming from when he says what he says there's never a

confused it's not one of those emails that you don't know what what do they what do they mean you know what I mean cuz he'll be like I I I hate it you know what I he's not afraid of no sugar Co no filter it shouldn't be because it's not about it's never never I mean it takes a long time to get used to the reality that they're talking about the music they're not talking about you and and but it's it's when You're younger I think of the ego you know gets hit pretty quickly um

but but but with Scott it's like a friend telling you you know why are you wearing that shirt if you're going to go out tonight why why did you put that shirt on bro what's wrong with you you know what I mean like a really good friend they don't there's no you know they're looking up for you what are you doing yeah come on what are you doing and and and but but I think like that is really Helpful I I'm always trying to figure out what I I actually like even right now I'm working

with oh someone's at the door I don't know if you hear the dogs barking do you I it's it's totally fine we can okay they're going to go off for like two or three minutes and but it's gonna be it's G to make this more exciting yes uh I was getting bored and and so thank God the dogs brought it up no but but the truth is like with With Scott I really I'm always kind of trying to figure out what what it is that the thing is I don't certainly never feel confident working on

a project with them I don't think I've ever felt I was talking with somebody about this about confident how music sounds confident and it and it and sometimes it comes across like man they really know what they're doing yeah and but it could be written from a very terrified place you know it could be Written for my I don't know if this is going to work and then uh and I think that's something something that comes that I realized with time is also true I used to think when I was younger that if they wrote

this score and it's so important and blah blah blah they must be in a very maybe they're not maybe they just weren't sure they just happen to be this one happens to land well with picture but outside of our own valtion you know we want to write confidence Scores we want to write very important crap or whatever but the truth is we when we're doing it we don't know and and even now as I'm collaborating was God I'm not sure of the direction of a the music I'm writing where it's going until he says yes

and then when he says yes even that I know can change through the process oh yeah especially on a Min series that it's like a lot you know you guys are working on a lot of Storytelling it's not just like a Two-hour you know movie anymore it's like you're doing big long arcs yeah man you know we we even thought about this because with with monster Spade it's a Noir and it's a continuation of dashel Hammond's very iconic character of of Sam Spade in you know Bas based on the malti Falcon and yeah and so

Noir genre is something I studied I I kind of did writing is research for me so anytime I get a gig I'm like you know Watching all the movies about the genre anything kind of similar was the music like who composing it blah blah blah so I went from you know LA Confidential back to Chinatown back to you know Laura and you know which is a monothematic idea to the long goodbye uh which is a Philip Marlo story and uh um and has John Williams score on it and the idea of monothematic theme writing monothematic

themes uh work for movies because They're 90 minutes or an hour and a half or two hours for miniseries you you want to throw your phone at the TV or you want to throw your phone out if you're watching it on your phone because at some point the theme overstays it's welcome and over six hours it's really it's a real Challenge and so you had to kind of come up with alternate themes again this is a conversation I didn't have with Scott this is a conversation that's internal for motivating writing But Scott was approving or

disapproving and that's the level at which we talk about it and then it's only in hindsight that he'll make a comment or but he also and and for people that are getting into this and are listening to this let's say for an edifying purpose I I really found that directors and showrunners don't have the time that you think they would to listen to your music they they are so worried with so many other aspects that appropr postproduction I call them like The eye of Sauron you know it's sort of like wherever the eye is at

you know it's focused but when it turns on you you know you pull a pull a pull a froto you're like you know and then and then you have to show the music they have to say I love it or I hate it and then their eye turns her way to VFX and then they complain about that or they have to F they have so many things to worry about yeah that's a great that's a great metaphor for it that's exactly very true Yeah and you have to be ready for that moment moment to show

and tell and just kind of do it get ready to pitch it have them say yes say it's no problem I'll make the changes go write really good notes and and then be ready to revise and so it's you know it's a different process all together then I don't think and these are the forums where we get to talk about those things like you know Laura or the film or you get to talk about these things but that it's really Not of concern to them they just want to say I like it or not right

I mean they're looking yeah it's it's about what's working for the picture it's what's working for the story and the characters and and it's they're following their gut instincts you're following your gut instincts and it's just and that's I think where the beauty comes from in terms of like what makes something like Queen's Gambit like have the success that it did because it Resonated with so many people and um and then uh you know and now we have Griselda coming which is you know getting you know so much love and everything and your score is

fantastic I mean your music I'm just talking I mean just telling you I'm not trying to kiss your ass or anything but your music is so good your music is so beautiful and the way you you you your thematic structure and the way you carry through the storytelling you're telling a story It's not just music I mean you're really telling a story and I think it's uh just shows just how in tune you are with I guess the film making film Mak process so I'm curious maybe uh uh maybe we can use Griselda as an

example to jump into it but I really want to kind of study I mean just learn kind of how you approach so we have a minseries you know uh it's going to be several hours uh you're on the project you're having the first conversations about Music and now it's like okay time to go right what's your starting point where do you start is it about creating some themes is it about creating a palet is it about writing just trying one scene and seeing how it goes I'm curious where you gravitate towards kind of your first

starting point or Griselda what was the starting point well it depends on you know it does depend on Project to project where you're coming in you know I've another composer talking about Parachuting into the project you know if you're if you're if you're a placement composer and you have no time you know just so many different situations yeah and but with Scott uh it usually can be very much a long time in this one there was plenty of conversation as they were kind of beginning shooting they were already shooting I think by the time I

came in and but there were a lot of conversations I had and this was unusual dude everything about grisela it's kind Of a unicorn so I know it probably won't happen again not in this way unless you know people like Andy B who was the director showrunner he directed all the episodes H was the person to answer to was very clear he knew what he wanted that that already is kind of like you know it's like a Scott Frank situation where you know they know what they like and they know what they don't like and

they're very clear so you fall you're you're very happy when you're kind of in Those hands yeah but also I think someone like Andy really gave the room to try and be very creative and there was was never an energy of like you know I don't know I don't know if I don't know if this is working out I've had those moments I've plenty and and that's normal actually part of it but um but the thing is like with Andy he we were talking about it and we knew he knew the story pretty clearly he'd

been working on narcos for Years so he him and Eric Newman were the team behind narcos and excellent and they understand that world and so he's doing a different version of that world in way but it's taking place in 70s and 80s in Miami and Colombia so the conversations were about uh what is going to be the pallet how are we going to tell the story and he was talking about synth scores at the beginning he made a playlist and sent it to me wow and I'm thinking you know Georgia morer And all of these

you know typical things that you would think and associate with not only you know Scarface but also Donna Summer he produced a bunch of great tracks he was he was like a Max Martin of his time I mean yeah he invented disco essentially like so so it's like he's a legend that that I so funny that he doesn't get spoken of more I I think um oh he's huge I love his stuff yeah he is he's amazing and uh so anyways that was kind of like sort of Like it would make sense and I think

the score would probably be serviceable in a way um the other thing would be to do more ambient like score uh because of what they do it probably would fit the story really well um but then but then the second playlist he sent was a classical playlist and I was like oh man this this is kind of exciting you know and the idea of Opera was kind of born from that and the idea of treating this like an opera like an opera in the Classical era previous and then through the classical era actually there's like

a thing called the Contino and or retive which is where this um the person a character is not necessarily singing an ARA but they're doing Exposition they're like tonight the ball will happen drum cord harpsicord and then Uncle will come harsy cord Harps cord I can't believe I'm pretending to sing sorry but the idea is they're doing this and this accompaniment is happening and I thought What because she there's moments where in the story she's giving speeches to encourage you know the people that are working for her and I was like what if we treat

it that way like if she's giving a r to T and then the harpsicord it's playing to support her and operatically and then Opera started to make just sense because it's a larger than life story and yeah why not and then let's have choir too dude because like just as important you know for These tropes that we all have subconsciously locked in like low frequency notes low pitches and you know are dangerous like Jaws you know you know low stuff choir if I say choir your your mind is thinking epic Grand you know you know

so adding choir to that voices to that and then the choir and then the harps Accord for when she speaks then the color started the pallet just became immediate and that was sort of like the birth of the conversation And it and it led to to the to the score but the first thing I scored was really the opening scene and and he sent it uh and just to give me a sense of what things look like hey I want you to look at what grela looks like it's the opening scene I don't think we

need anything but she's come she's got a bullet wound and she's kind of and I just want you to see what Sophia's doing now because I want should understand her character you know it was more like Educational yeah and he sent it to me and and I started watching it and I and I sang into my phone as I was watching it because I do voice memos you know that's how I I write a lot that way watching there's a few composers who do that I know heor Pereira does that too if he has an

idea he'll quickly record the melody so he doesn't forget it yeah yeah yeah and it dude trust me it did not sound like a melody bro that didn't that was you heard me sing it Like 10 minutes ago that's did not sound it was like you know I did this thing and then when you see the blood on her hand and then there was like a silence I went and I was like holy crap you know this this it feels like it's working and then I put it in my dog and then I started playing

playing it out on piano and then figuring out what the notes were and then I realized the demo and then I sent it to him and I was thinking I don't Know man just I don't know this is like the Opera thing we're talking about he's like holy crap dude I love it and I was like like you know and as soon as he said that I was like let's go yeah and and we just you got your confidence that's the confidence that you're talk like when you find that footing and you're like yes we

got it like but it doesn't happen I mean that that's a unicorn that's dude that's like the story you hear that you think composers Go through all the time the reality is this is a never never situation it takes forever to find it and so it was a blessing man because then we were just Off to the Races and very few notes from him very few notes from Netflix and you know if anybody's listening that does this for real notes are from notes come from everywhere you look behind you there's a note coming in like

it's like Harry Potter all letters Come oh dud that's a that's a great meme that should be a meme getting the notes you composers getting their notes and just all the letter yeah composers getting their revision number 24 and you know and then so I actually and I I've learned to appreciate it and understand the process and it's just part of it you know but but Lord Almighty there was that's why I keep saying I won't saying it anymore but it was a unique Experience uh it it couldn't have gone better and there was so

much trust that he had and so much room that he let me work with and he was always nice man and always always kind he was a he a a mench as I've heard plenty of people be referred to sometimes s and yeah deservedly so you know yeah absolutely well you mentioned uh you know you mentioned Scarface you mentioned Georgio uh and uh when you have a a story this one of course based on a real person not Something someone fictional like Tony Montana but when you mentioned Miami and drugs it kind of you know

has that people have that kind of idea of that kind of Rise and Fall Story of like this you know criminal organization or Larger than Life figure which Gisela she was and you know her rise and fall is like so I'm curious uh maybe just be you know why do you think as a society we we love like kind of stories like this why are we gravitated towards criminals and like Uh people who are doing bad things uh are we is it it I'm curious for you as the Storyteller Behind the Music but we love

things like Scarface or Good Fellas or you know any kind of these stories of Sopranos Sopranos rise and fall of or anything that we it's like getting into the darkness or Walter White Breaking Bad right Breaking Bad came to mind yeah it's just like why do you think as a society we're so attracted to these figures these larger than life kind of Criminals well let me let me expound as a musician on trained psychology conversation just kidding uh I I don't think I got much off I don't want to pretend I I do hate it

when people kind of pretend to do more but I do find it interesting that as as in our human nature we're we're not good or bad we're we're a little bit of everything yeah and we we tend to lean on The Good the best we can I think our aim in life is to do the good but the Bad's so attractive and and I think there's something in it look I don't know why we slow down when we see a car accident but we're driving and we see a car accident there's a lot of traffic

and you're like why is so much traffic there's an accident on the other side of the road but people stop and and look we have a Fascination for going back to Gladiators to hangings to horrible things and to you know things that are are very uh dark and I think that we Have this inner inner nature that and I do think as it's a weird point of view but I do think that what what fantasy is and the escapism of film and why we love Scorsese films like Taxi Driver everybody talked about still talk about

it and it's one of the most brutal endings on a film ever uh good Fells of course and um is because we have a Fascination for seeing the fantasy knowing we can't and won't likely do it and so it gets to be it gets to be Realized and as an audience we get to kind of fill or tap that or check that box and right I don't know if that makes sense but it's no it does because I think we're attracted to I I know uh there's because my wife loves chew crime and I know

there's everyone says this the same statistic that women are more attracted to uh True Crime because it's like a almost like a survival mechan like oh I'm learning kind of like how things like and I think psychologists Have I'm sure like analyze that or anything like that but I myself you know as a what straight white male I'm still like uh you're kind of just interested at just like how can someone get to that point how can and what was the motivation because usually it is a survival thing is sometimes they are in poverty and

they have no other means or sometimes it's just like a life and death situation for them and they go into that and you kind of try To understand it more you know it's not just like a serial killer who's just you know maybe mentally has issues but it's like something someone who's not mentally deranged or just someone who's in you know how Griselda became kind of this queen pin you know of of of everything so I'm curious like when you approach writing the music for her her character and the way Sophia you know did her

is it was it tricky to like humanize This character for the audience to like what did you want your music to do for the audience did you want the audience to sympathize with her did you want the audience to just understand like be more back and be like what just watch this unfold I'm curious kind of what you wanted the score to do I don't think I don't think um composers can I think we can I think our job is to do what the director wants us to do first of all like as much as

I want to Pretend to say well I wanted you know but I do know that I I think it's important that we we are aware of the contrast and the potential possibilities so anything to do with her personal life as a m mother like anything to do with any intimate moments I I did like guitar as a pallet and a kind of guitar it was like guitar I played on the right speaker and then I had like this Midi Guitar on the left to to color the instrument so it wouldn't be just guitar Yeah um

and then Larger than Life moments they're very dramatic moments then you have your operatic Orchestra like 84 piece choir you know 60 or it wasn't a huge Orchestra but it was in Budapest very nice um uh group um um and how do you call it uh East Connection or east connect of uh anyways really cool Orchestra and then we had choir 24 piece choir and so there um there's the big stuff and then the little stuff guitar for the intimate moments and it's kind Of a device that you use to kind of bring it in

you know kind of so you have something to kind of go against and anything that she's thinking about her past the characters and the moments and decisions where she may have aired or aired um I I think the best answer more than anything was like something I heard Eric Newman write and he's not trying to uh excuse griselda's Behavior but explain it maybe yeah you know and I think the score is supposed to help Explain her behavior without without trying to portray her in any kind of light sure yeah I should have just said that

like five minutes ago dude I'm sorry no yeah you know talked it out to get to get to that I think we we still continually that's the thing you'll do a project or I'll watch a movie that's made in the 80s and it's you know tackling a similar subject and you know I'll watch Terrence Malik you know something philosophizing in Days of Heaven and watch you know hidden life and there's still new things that you're discovering you're trying to figure out what we're all kind of chasing sometimes like you see filmmakers kind of oh filmmaker

has a style or it's maybe doing the same movie over and over you mentioned scors scorsi clearly is obsessed with the rise and fall like his films all kind of have whether it's wolf of Waller even killers of the flower Moon you're seeing people rise and then Fall and there's something there as his him as a Storyteller is obsessed with that so it's just fascinating to see that we're always we're still chasing the answer sometimes and we don't even know what it is and it's just like yeah it is it is but it's just as

a human thing it's just like yeah the stories Fascinate us and it's like yeah and they tend to be the dark ones I mean as much as I love Paddington too like the next person I mean man that's a beautiful Film I I'd love to do like that as well like that's that's the kind of thing where you're like oh man because those I think are really hard because you have to be emotional but not cheesy yeah you you probably have to be more vulnerable as a composer too like you really have to be really

in touch with yourself and kind of just open that up and be like I need to be real or those is goingon to come across as you know cheesy and I mean I think the the danger of melodrama Is the Mellow part you know what I mean find that line yeah yeah and it's like how do you how do you how do you walk away or right I the way I think about it is like skirting around the word suck you know it's like sucks right here and you're writing your way yeah doing a tiptoe

dance like kind of whatever in the periphery and but you're close because close is where it works you know right it's like there's a really very small window where it works Before Schmaltz vers like sentimental you know like kind of yes dude and that that's got to be a hard gig to do that I mean I think it it's a hard hard gig to do so anyway was there any uh did you have any pro uh I guess challenges with tone uh with Griselda was there a was it a challenge to find certain tones or

was it kind of easy to admit what the film was kind of speaking to you like we kind of know what the tone of this should be or was it kind of tricky to navigate all That and weave all that throughout the episodes I would say I was scared of sending him when I did for episode three when this character called mear gets a stake out on him because it was very classical and very but but with a Latin Rhythm kind of thing [Music] which but but um but more than anything I was excited about

four episode four there's a there's this this character pess there's a steak out they do into The liquor store that's leading to this they're going to blow a house up and they're going to get this guy in the liquor store and when I saw the scene for some reason I thought of The Usual Suspects because a lot of the work we do is referential we're always thinking of what and I don't know if you know the movie but it's the '90s film John score and editing but but Ed his score is just like oh my

God it's a masterpiece and it has OBO in it I think and I used OBO in This but not because of that but I'm just thinking about it now but there was a sequence in Usual Suspects when they're sticking out in an elevator ride who they think is whoever the character Kaiser so they think is and they um in that scene I remember going being in the movie theater watching it going like I just there's moments in movies where you get super excited and when I saw that sequence in episode 4 I was like oh

man they're going to this is Going to it's going to go down and the setup and I hadn't done any writing you know what I mean it's like it's already there and some when you get those sequences that's the exciting part that's when you're like you kind of have the outer body thing where you're like oh my god dude I'm doing freaking Gela bro like like it's weird and in that moment I and so the music I wrote I'm very excited about how it works how it lands there's some nerdy writing things Where the phrase

repeats but it doesn't go big because anyway so van appears on the glass window you can't really score the music if I had scored the music to change when it's supposed to change I would have missed the van so the music changes where it's supposed to change but the orchestration changes on the van little things like that oh nerd Heaven you know what I mean I was soy to get to do it yeah that's the fun part because that's like when You get to be the Storyteller and be like I know how to make the

audience feel and I know like I always used to um when I worked in a movie theater and I know uh I've heard other directors say this like they'll go opening weekend and they'll go sit in the theater in the back you know have sunglasses so no one can recognize them uh I think even Tom Cruz says he does this I don't know how he can get away with it but like he just he just wants to see how the audience is Reacting they're not in a focus group they don't know they're being you know

there for their opinion just there to they paid with their money went out of their way to go to the theater to go see it and to see that reaction and when I was a a projectionist I would always like you know I remember when like Dark Knight came out I was came out anytime there was like a joke or something like one of those little goofy on liners that usually a trailer thing I would see does It hit and and it's like math it's like every time the audience is laughing at the same place

and it's like wow that's like crap that's like it you know how it like you just see it over and over working and I'm just like man just to have that craft to get it down to that so you know no matter what the audience is is playing somewhere in Maryland in the theater you know that I'm projections that is still hitting the way Nolan wanted it to to hit in a Certain way so I think it's always fascinating that part of it yeah I I think I agree I think there's a there the whole

thing is a manipulation and and so our job is to I mean why music anyway you know what I mean the truth is you know there's a there's a thing called a story of film that I have my students watch because the whole job I teach my students is really to learn the language of film not not about how great um Williams and despot are which we Already know Walking In by the time there are students at you know at The Graduate level in my school they're they they know what they're doing and so so

but do they know how to speak you know you know what is ADR what's a twoot what's a dolly you know like all these the language of film and there's a movie uh there's a there's a docu series called the story of film which I really recomend I make them watch in the first semester and it's Required viewing and the truth is you can just watch the opening and it'll be much better than whatever I'm going to say now but the truth is like you know most of everything they they start with the opening for

sevy Private Ryan and you know the attack you know dday or whatever and he's like man there's like these are actors pretending to be wounded on a beach that may or may not be the same location a peaceful that shot on a peaceful day uh playing War It's all the big pretend you know the big you know everybody's wearing costumes that their actors are playing people they're not they they are not the sound and the editing are creating you and it's all immersive manipulation you're kind of going into this and we want to be as

an audience the better you are at it the more I'm in I'll give you the money here exact take my money right with Nolan it's like take my money I I I hear he's making a movie and I'm like I don't know why and it's because he's the master like all the Masters that do this that attract you to this kind of thing are good at the craft and I think craft is the thing art is sort of like maybe something a cherry on top but it's not why you're doing this I mean Lord Almighty

it's just because you want to get good at nailing and finding it if that makes sense no absolutely and I agree with that I I hate the criticism sometimes like I'll where that's why I Don't read reviews much anymore because it's just like you see a Critic going like oh this this movie was too manipulative it's like oh it's a real tearjerker it really tried hard it's like if I'm going to go see a sad movie I want to cry like I If it's a sad story it's like I'm signing up for this and I

want I'm here's my hand take me on this journey you know I'm giving myself up to the filmmakers do what you will with my Emotions please like so when like if a score is like trying like going all in I'm just like I'm I'm for it I'm just like basking it and some people are just like oh it's really trying hard to make me cry I'm like all right Sour Puss like why are you so angry like you know just just like relax and enjoy the film like if you don't want to watch a tear

Jer don't watch it you know I'm just like Let It Go Let It Go yeah go for it yeah like I was watching some clips of lay M Zer Rob recently like the the Tom Hooper version like that the it's just like it is so over the toop and just like it but it's like it shakes you and you're just like if you give into it and those performances and it's just like it is so dramatic but it's like sometimes you just want that sometimes you you need just give up making me think of something

I I think that some movies are like are like good songs that maybe you're not ready to see it and then you See it and it hits you sideways maybe you know like going back like what's it uh um what Forest Gump and I saw it and I was like oh this is great and there was a moment in the movie where I cried but then I saw it like 10 years later and I think I cried the whole movie like I was just ready for it and I think of songs like umur the lenon

song was in The Beatles Across the Universe yeah and I remember hearing the song going it's cool because It has this really cool you know whatever and then I remember hearing it one day and I was just I was all in like it took me and it just beat me like a rag doll and right I think good good movies do that it maybe sometimes we're the ones who aren't ready for for it you know I think so because the movie is a it's like a fixed thing once it's done it's just like it's that's

what it is but we are as a human every day we're different we wake up be grumpy one day One day we're on cloud n maybe we had a really bad you know argument with somebody and now we're kind of in a pissy mood and if we see a movie in a certain mood we're going to take it in completely differently so that's why it's so subjective and that's when people are say this movie is amazing this one is not it's like yeah to you in that moment sure but in that moment yes yeah and

absolutely true on that day yeah I mean there are movies of who you Kidding exact come on we're not like let's not be too nice here no no yeah there there movies where you're like what the hell happened here but but but if I don't get it or if I have that sort I don't know I don't know then maybe I should I you know I could can come back around but you know sometimes it's so weird dude this whole thing is so weird I do think about like I do tell the students also like

um bringing up like I'm pitching The score or something but I'm not but I love it I love I love that job but but I but I always do talk about no one sets out to make a 20% Rotten Tomato review movie no one is there make a bad movie on purpose unless you maybe like Tommy waso or something that you're if you're if you're in it and you know what you're doing if you're self aware but then but then it loses the charm once they be like shark NATO they lose the charm it's not

not fun anymore like when you're Watching a bad movie and you there's some I I recently uh two Halloweens ago my wife and I did a whole rewatch of the Friday the 13th series and there's some really bad ones in the middle but there's something so I don't know there's like the the raw film making charm behind it like these young filmmakers are like here's a no money we're just trying to make a slasher movie uh it's already been done four times make it work and you're just You're seeing the gears grind they're trying things

and you're just I don't know I kind of appreciate it for that like it's like almost that's the entertainment for me like that was my first big jump scare I was like 11 when I saw the first one and girl when she's on the lake when she's right after the movie kind of ended and Jason comes out comes out yeah that's the big one dude I I I got like cold shivers my whole body went and I was like a and I was 11 Freaking out man that was like true horror like a like the

power of movies yeah right and that's why the the good one stay with you for your entire life and that's why you go back to rewatch them and like we wait does it hold dude I haven't seen it since then does it hold it's uh it depends if if you watched it when you were younger it will still hold it's definitely slower paced it's definitely a very like you know it's like POV stuff and you have the you Know maninis you know just it's a lot of and very dramatic like the girl because you don't

see the killer to the end so it's all POV shot but you can tell it's done with very low budget low you know maybe limitations with film making knowledge and stuff but then you see Tom savini's like Gore effects and like you know when Kevin Bacon gets poked through and like the fake neck and andin bacon yeah Tom savini became this kind of like you know Awesome prop you know effects guy and ended up doing you know Dawn of the Dead with Romero and you know it's just like you you see I don't know I

like that feel like that kind of Hands-On film making Spirit where it feels like just a bunch of people like reminds me of film school when I was in film school you're just making it for the hell of making it who cares about money who cares about what people awards and what people are going to say it's like let's just make Something that we want to make you know that's that's the that's the thing you're chasing that's the thing you're looking for I think it's like you know no award's going to make you right better

ever like there's no there's no like when you're in it you're and you're really in it you're just trying to get it right and that's that's that's the same passion did you you probably like the thing the movie the thing that's one of my favorite ones I knew it dude John Carpent the thing yeah the thing I I literally preach it every time can because of yes just it's it's a western but it's in the snow it's an alien movie but it's a paranoia film I mean it's every I love it it's Rick Baker right

is it Rick Baker effects um no it was uh it was God I I don't know why I'm BL zo effects are crazy I used to watch in fangoria magazine it would be like how they did the that coming off I'm gonna look it up real quick because I already BL this is really important for everybody it is because I don't want to get it wrong for people who are listening let not yeah the thing all two listeners left uh it was uh Rob God what was his name I could I thought it's probably not

Rick Baker did run he did do uh what's the one with the the warwolf one American werewolf and Patrick Baker and and he did Thriller and all that but he didn't do yeah it's Rob botin um I think But I think and then I think Stan Winston might have done might have done the dog scene in the kennel but Rob did everything else and he was like 23 or 26 years old at the time it was his first thing ever and the one you know with the the the chest you know defibrillator scene that's all

him like that's everything and that is that is nuts when the thing opens up and and it still holds today like watch yeah practicals don't age the second you do a CGI effect It's already out of date when the movie comes out because there's technology is always getting better and when I watch action movies today like kind of done with Marvel films because it's like they're just cartoons and it's fine if you want some you know quick entertainment but there's it it's like a Big Mac like I can just go get another one next week

you know it's just like it doesn't it's no not special anymore but I don't know making me want to go get a Big Mac now actually not the double Big Max back yeah but uh it's the mcrip usually when the mCP comes and that I kind of do I have a friend of mine we used to we used to call each other and or send a text Chomp and then and like a picture of it when it comes out but but but I do think like here's the other thing younger people with the VFX like

Star Wars the original was made by young people like VFX he created an island for it like There was no nothing to do where is I'm I'm wanting that now yeah I'm I'm I'm hungry for that there's something some kids somewhere is making this effect yeah and I can't wait I can't wait to score that dude i' D be like ah if I could get some because I'm looking for something there's something new that has to happen in the next 5 years or something in this world it where right where these young people are going

to change the environment I mean you're Saying exactly what I've been saying where it's like we need a new new vvog we need like a new new wave a new French New Wave a new like young hungry we need something to break up because that's what happened I was like 50s Cinema was very much Studio big Glitz and glamour Gone With the Wind movies like Hollywood and then and then the 60s and 70s came and it was like oh this is where we get really gringy and we had like American French new wave and then

American new Wave and you had Bonnie and Clyde and like you know stuff like that where it's just like holy crap this is going to shock the crap out of us and it's just like different way of cutting jump cuts and effects and yeah I think I think it'll happen again it has to like everyone has a this thing recording on everyone has a 4k camera in their in their pocket you know ready to go 24 frames per second go out and make a movie find something cool to do you know I am so hungry

for that and and and believe me and I'm grateful and I'm grateful to do the stuff I'm doing because I do really really feel very blessed to get to work with the directors I work with because of where they come from and watching the stuff I get to watch but I think there's like something that I don't know what it's going to be but I feel there's something especially more like in the Sci-Fi side of things a lot L of that sort of world Fantasy there's something that we need to kind of I don't know

I don't know obviously I I'm musician I always default too when I don't know what I'm talking about you do though but I think I think you do and that's why you see it in your music and you see it in the scores that you've done and uh and I think uh you know you definitely have an understanding of Storytelling and I think you mentioned sci-fi and I think SciFi and horror are still that genre Where it's like you can really explore and experiment because horror and maybe to a certain degree some sci-fi not like

the big Studio ones a little bit more smaller budget you know they they're more you're kind of just like it's very kind of um stripped down so I think directors can try things and and get away with things a little bit more because the the if saaron of the studio is not like you know, 1500 Executives that this movie needs to make a billion Dollars to be profitable no you can make you know you know $50 million box office and we're good you know like a Jason Blum kind of production yeah dude well he's rocked

it he's done a lot of really cool things with that and there this just it's just an interesting time I'm yeah and I'm grateful to be in it as as anyone could be but you know but I am there's something about what we're talking about I think that's not now and and I'm not and I certainly don't want It to be what it used to be I just want to be feel like what is the evolution and I'm I'm ready for it like I'm so excited to see what what comes and and who brings it

to the table CU I know somebody's out there right now making that making that historic and we're gonna feel it and hopefully I'll get to text you it's like dude it's happening and you're like who is this what you talking about are you in my house now yeah yeah is it you know You got the MRI what what is happening but uh anyway but I mean yeah I mean it's I think we are in a time of change I think uh I'm I like to be optimistic about the future I know that you know there's

a lot of uncertainty in our industry right now but and we're all feeling it but I think you know people want to be entertained I always talk think about you know people oh do people want to go to the movies anymore it's like yeah they they do like to sit in a Room full of strangers a comedy is way more funny when you're seeing in a theater a horror movie is way more scary when you're in a theater when you're surrounded by people who are gasping at the same time that you do not know their

name whether you're at home and you're at home the lights are on you're on your phone it just it doesn't have the same effect and I always equate it to it's like going back in time it's like back you know when our ancestors were Surrounded at a campfire you know cooking dinner and telling stories and all we had were our stories and again we want to be manipulated I want to hear a ghost story scare me all right the best Storyteller will come around the campfire and now you're in front of a big glowing screen

that's our campfire you know we're all the movie theater is our campfire we want to go just sit and and be told stories so I think that'll that'll always hold true I think for Humanity I think you you know what else is my wife was quick to tell me cuz I was like you know what the problem with going to movie theaters now is like that the person next to me is on their phone or they're talking it's the etiquette that's always been the problem for me yeah but if you think about it when I

was young I wasn't as concerned and I think that young people are going to the movies for the same reason young people went to movies it's because they're Going on a date and they want to be in a you know place to be with their date and like just you know you get to sit next to each other and I took my my wife when we started dating to see a movie called in the sky and it was supposed to be a scary movie about alien abduction and I was like oh my God it's one

that I can Fair safely say is one of the worst movies I've seen and and because not only not because of that but because nothing really happens in the movie The Adduction happens in the last 20 minutes of the movie and that's when like we grabbed each other's arm because we were there to see if you know how chemistry was happening right so I had this jacket and everything and I was waiting to kind of and nothing and I was like dude it's an hour and nothing's happen and so our mindset at the time when

you're younger is very different than now it's like well I don't like the light on people's phones it's like screw you old man you Know yeah here to watch the movie so I you know she was the first one to kind of tell me stop talking like an idiot because uh we we there are things that there reasons why I'm not going to go to the movie has nothing to do with with why people are going to the movies and sure yeah if that makes any sense you know it makes total sense no right I

was always almost anti theater sometimes because yeah you go there and everything was always you know it also depends Where you see it like I love kind of being back in La too because there a different movie crowd here you know so oh dude to respect yeah that's everybody's there through the through the credits oh I've always they're cleaning around me usually when I'm sitting there still waiting for for the logos to come up but it's uh yeah I'm hoping the arcite does get back on its feed there's always rumors that they're going to open

back up but um like yeah But I love it if people clap you know when when the credits happen and stuff like that it's an event you know and uh dude I got to see if I I don't think I have it I don't know where I put it but I posted it the other day and like my very able social media I'm not very good at that at all bro and then um but the thing is like I I don't know I don't think I have it here I'm oh yeah I do dude check

it out talk you mentioned the arcl light I Don't know if you can see this but um this thing is legit man I was when I was living living in La do you see that oh yeah phogy Tuesday like a whole trilogy marathon all of them wow all of them all day it was all day and and then at midnight Return of the King Premier at the ark light wow so you wash it up and then do you stay up for Return of the King at midnight dude we we got there around 12:00 pm I

think to watch the first one It's like and it was the directors cut so it was like four hours break four hours break midnight showing of Return of the King we got home at 300 in the morning we're like we turned into Orcs ourselves you know but it was dude it was like what a great experience and that's that's the magic right literally that's that's the whole thing and everybody that was there for the common cause we had read all the books we had done our book club about it then we went And saw the

movies it was like a it was a great time for movies too Harry Potter had come out like all these you know it was 2000s early 2000 yeah 2001 is like when the first yeah something like that yeah all those movies were out and they were like talking about and that was a new thing Lord of the Rings was definitely some new cinematic kind of story use of device technology V effects how they were doing yeah models and and I mean M all of it was like kind that's What I'm that's what I need that's

what I'm looking for man yeah me too I'm I'm 100% on the same page anyway well Carlos I think we've covered so much in our in our in our chat I think uh yeah thank you again for your time and uh it's always nice to just hear about your work and then nerd out with you and talk about what we love and I love any time we get together next time you're in La I we definitely need to grab grab a drink grab some dinner I'll bother in in and out because you know oh course

you need it what I don't know if are you tired of it or you where do you go get a burger where I do in and out but I have to wait I there's a certain time because sometimes the line every there's only it's like 40 minutes to to wait and drive through to get a line but sometimes you just want it yeah dude I actually last time I was there I parked and I parked like three blocks away walked and good there was like two People in the line and then I just ate pretty

quickly but it's it's always line you know so yeah sometimes I'll do that yeah I just walk up and just sit sit the thing so we'll do yeah we'll do an in and out we'll do an in and out in- and out get together I love it all right well thank you man thank you Kai I was real thrilled to get to talk to you you have no idea I'm a fan of all the stuff and I watched all the interview so I'm just you know to me in this box here is Freaking me out

a little bit so thank you no thank you so I love your music and it's been great to watch your your your career evolve since from where we met and congrats on all the success because it's earned like don't ever feel like you're just like uh you're in Canada now buddy like oh man welcome to canid all [Music] right [Music]