how to prosecute sha Diddy Colmes who will be called as witnesses will he be hit with more charges how do you prove the charges how do you structure the case I'm going to sit down with Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave arenburg to get his take on prosecutors and what they may be will or should try to do in the case against the rapper and media mile welcome to sidebar presented by law on crime I'm Jesse Weber now here's something we haven't really talked about in depth yet how do you prosecute Shawn Combs I mean
literally how do you prove that he committed these sex crimes who do you call as Witnesses what evidence do you present how do you present it do you hit him with more charges and when do you hit him with more charges do you indict more defendants these are natural questions natural questions that follows after the 54 year-old was arrested and indicted on federal charges last week in New York he's currently locked up in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn after being denied baale twice now the charges he faces are incredibly serious felonies that if he
is convicted could result in him spending essentially the rest of his life in prison and before we get into the ways that you prosecute Shawn Colmes let me briefly lay out for you the charges so the racketeering charge is essentially that comes led a criminal Enterprise whose goal other than to operate a global media and entertainment business was to engage in the abuse of women sex trafficking Force labor prostitution the distribution of drugs to use violence and threats to commit crimes like kidnapping arson bribery obstruction of justice all to carry out their goals all the
while to make sure to satisfy the sexual desires of Shawn Colmes and one of those desires by the way as alleged by prosecutors were these freak offs these elaborate coerced sexual performances that's the allegation here uh that were sometimes induced by drugs that Combs allegedly forced people to take part he's also charged with sex trafficking with respect to victim one there is an argument that that could be Cassandra venturo the very first person to file a lawsuit against him back in November of 2023 and this is sex trafficking by using Force fraud or coercion to
have this person engage in commercial sex acts meaning for money or something of value was given or promised there's an element that this has to be enticing harboring transporting this person over state or International lines and then we have the final count which is transporting people over state or International lines for the purposes of prostitution okay so with that in mind I want to get into how do you prosecute sha Diddy coms and for that I want to bring in a special guest I am joined right now by Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave aronburg
in studio Dave good to see you Jesse great to be back with you great to great to have you here so is Prosecuting a high-profile individual like sha comes does that make the case different for you if you're a federal prosecutor Compu you're used to winning they win about 97% of their cases most of their cases settle it's hard to fight the feds you know you don't fight Uncle Sam unless your name is Mark cubin you got those resources well Diddy has Mark Cuban style resources and connections and he's going to have the best lawyers
money can buy so the feds are going to be extra careful just human nature when you know you're up against Big Timers you're going to make sure all your eyes are dotted and your teas are crossed so that that's well do back to that does it make it different do does it more eyeballs will be on it more eyeballs will be on them absolutely they know it even though they keep everything close to the vest they don't talk much about stuff they hearings are not publicized as far as there no cameras in the courtroom you
hear about it afterwards but they're going to make sure that they've got the goods before they go after a big dog like Diddy Sean Coles so I think what you've seen already is that they have charged them with things they know they can prove Beyond a reasonable doubt if was just problem cause they wouldn't move ahead problem cause is a stand to get a grand jury indictment but when it comes to convicting someone you need something more Beyond A Reasonable Doubt and they're not going to charge what they cannot prove so I think that you've
only seen one person mentioned in the sex trafficking indictment victim number one only one we think it's Cassie but I think more will be forthcoming as the evidence starts to come out and as more victims come forward I want to comp I want to take that apart of you a little bit there was no rush to indict him right they didn't have to we got to indict him before the end of the year they could have waited a while right they could have waited till they the reason I ask is look he's facing some very
serious felonies it's a a very thorough investigation they've interviewed over 50 Witnesses and victims gone through a number of different pieces of digital evidence but there were things in that indictment that weren't there right there was I was wondering if there was going to be anything relation to minors you know underage people um was there going to be anything specific charges of gun possession narcotics possession and he's only hit with these three felonies only hit they're very serious felonies but they didn't have to rush they could have um waited till they had everything we're going
to charge everything we can in one indictment why wait why not why do another it's called the superseding indictment why do a superseding indictment why not just hit him one indictment ready to go the longer you wait there could be a problem because the longer you wait there could be more crimes committed you want to protect the community and if Diddy is doing this behind closed doors and has this sexual addiction where he has these free coughs why wouldn't he continue to do it he's gotten away with it apparently until now plus the longer you
wait people who come forward like Cassie they may get cold feet evidence could spoil memories could fade people could get intimidated remember they alleged that Diddy was obstructing was trying to intimidate Witnesses threatening them even after even after the lawsuits came out even after the the homes were raided that was the allegation so if you wait too long he could tamper with Witnesses he could flee even though he said I'm in New York waiting for the prosecution waiting for the indictment yeah but you got resources if you really thought it was coming maybe he gets
on his jet and bails well he gave up his passport to his attorneys and so did some of his family members and apparently from the communications that were uh attached as an exhibit to the defense's letter to the judge when they were requesting bail um they were constant communication with prosecutors saying this is where he's going this weekend he's going to be back this weekend we still have his passport um so I don't know if he was ever going to take off they I think they were I I personally believe the reason he came to
New York the reason he didn't take off is I think he thought he could make bail and be out for one to two years until trial happens and I think he thought he could beat it but that's my take no I by the way I agree with the fact that he thought he would be out his lawyers were shocked that yeah he was sent to the cooler pending trial they didn't expect that and I do think when you're Diddy you think you're above the law You've Got Friends in high places you've got money you've got
possessions power Prestige privilege and so you probably think that he's not going to end up in this ratty Detention Facility that's for people like Jeffrey Epstein who aren't smart enough to get away with it right freed freed right yeah yeah gain Maxwell by the way as we're sorting through these legal arguments we're not only getting a sense of how skilled prosecutors can be but how important having great defense attorneys can be too right and we talk about that a lot we talk about great lawyers a lot here on sidebar and honestly I can't say that
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considerably higher than the highest insurance offers in these cases there's no upfront fee they only get paid if you get paid the whole process can be done straight from your smartphone so if you're injured you can easily start a claim at forthepeople.com LC sidebar well let me ask you this you you talk about there could be more charges what do you hit them with then because right now there is a potential defenses what I said he's innocent still proven guilty I mean he could try to say um there was no criminal Enterprise there was no
conspiracy I didn't transport any of these alleged sex workers sex trafficking she you know the victim one really came to and from different places there was no fro Force fraud or coercion but are you suggesting there could be additional charges where his defense has become much more limited if the charges involve miners he's in more trouble because you don't need Force fraud or coercion when it comes to miners that's the difference between these charges and the ones against AR Kelly R Kelly's charges involved minors all you need are commercial sex acts and then you go
down for it here his defense is going to be these adults consented and consent is a defense but that video is powerful because it shows Force she's been alleging Cassie that he kept everyone in line because of force apparently there's a witness that said that he threw a hot Skillet of eggs on her among other ways to forcibly abuse her so this going to be really important to have witness testimony from Cassie from people like LOD from Don Don Richards um people who Richard ex yes not plural Richard singular people like that will come forward
and they'll be key Witnesses because they corroborate each other's testimony I was going to ask you about that if you're Prosecuting this case do you bring out every person that has filed a lawsuit against him because what's the defense going to say they're going to cross-examine every one of these these alleged accusers and say you got something to gain you're filing a lawsuit you got something to gain you file a lawsuit as the prosecution do you call every one of those accusers I think the more the better even the ones who may have some credibility
issues like the guy the guy who shot up the Trump Dural Golf Course Jonathan AI Jonathan aie call him a male prostitute well if he corroborates what Cassie is saying you know with his issues you may want to call him because it's these aren't perfect people like Diddy is not going to hang out with choir boys all the time they're going to be some people from some subsets of society that you would you and I would not hang out with you know these are criminals right but yet if they corroborate each other I think that's
powerful testimony the the the counterargument to that would be if you have a case and you have five people accusing someone of sexual assault and one or two of them have weaker claims it could weaken the entire case that's why you bring out the bad stuff and direct you come out and say you said this you know that wasn't true you're a male prostitute you took drugs with did you're the drug mule you know you come out and you you bring it all out and you say tell us the story and then it depends on
the jury to find them credible if they don't come across well in your pre interview then you don't use them but if they come across well like for example Michael Owen had his issues he was the key witness against Donald Trump and he was just attacked on the stand brought him out L that's right because they had everyone else to corroborate him and so that's what I mean you want to sort of build a wall around your key Witnesses you want to build a wall around Cassie so when they inevitably try to take her down
you say yeah but is everyone lying I mean that's one thing maybe just maybe the guy on trial is the one lying not the eight other people who are testifying against him assuming she is a government witness and I think it's fair to say that because for me looking at this I look at the indictment a lot of it in my opinion is based on her allegations you call her first is she your first witness at trial it's up to the prosecutors to determine their strategy whether you want to go big all at once at
the beginning because she is your key witness or do you want to lead up to her generally you put your best Witnesses on First and Last beginning and end because that's what sticks in the recency yeah just like you learned in high school debate I'm sure you were a great debater just depends upon the argument yeah but that's what you want to do and then you put your auxiliary Witnesses in the middle so I would say towards the beginning or towards the end you'd use her but that's strategy up to the prosecutors I want to
go back to something you mentioned in terms of other charges right I think it was very interesting and I agree with you you know maybe there needs to be a you what are the charges that stick right now get him detained can't be tampering with this case anymore won't allegedly be abusing anybody anymore but the idea of a superseding indictment I think I've spoken to a lot of legal analysts they say it's likely more charges are coming I thought it was really interesting and it's something you mentioned to me yesterday when we were talking about
you coming on so Talia Graves uh has filed a lawsuit against Sean K she's the latest accuser um accusing him of sexual assault she comes out after comes is arrested after Colmes is detained what does that tell you uh about the potential the potential of other people coming forward what the prosecutor strategy might be here I think the federal prosecutors and asking for pre-trial detention wanted people like her to come forward they wanted those who are scared to come forward to know you can talk now because that guy you're scared of he's not getting out
pre-trial he is not going to hurt you he's not going to be able to tamper with you it's one thing to tell them that it's one thing for them to see him behind bars on suicide watch in this ratty facility in New York so I think that was part of their strategy so that's why they got a huge Victory when the court denied did these pre- we don't know who's been speaking with the government do you think it's a situation where atali GES was already cooperating with the government and then filed her lawsuit or filed
her lawsuit and now might be speaking with the government could go either way Chicken and the Egg right but she's valuable because it's coroporation I think when you put women on the stand I think that uh that will sell to a jury better than like a Jonathan doy who's a male prostitute with all of his issues I say though that I don't think they should rule out all these other folks who have spoken up who have proven to be truth tellers even though the truth teller comes from the mouth of a criminal I mean you
make a good point you can't pick and choose your prosecution witnesses um in terms of when this trial happens did he Colmes would have a right for a speedy trial which I think is 70 days after the indictment if I'm correct me if I'm wrong um do you think that that's something he would pursue or would he file a motion this is a complex case work through Discovery try to delay this for a while and how would prosecutors respond well speed trials like 6 months afterwards I this thing is not going to go to trial
in my mind until the end of 2025 or 2026 I I do think because there's a lot of work to be done these uh defense lawyers these higher powerered lawyers you know they don't work cheaply they build up cases they have a lot of hours in there and they know how difficult this case could be I don't think that moving forward fast inur to the def the benefit of the defense and that's because the prosecution has been working on this for years now they've been looking at since Cassie came forward so they've had a lot
of Head Start and the defense is catching up so I don't think it helps them to say okay let's go as fast as possible well okay you're letting the guys who are way on front of you go I I think that hurts you so this is uh the federal case in the Federal Criminal process the next my understanding would be it's the discovery phase there's a plea bargaining phase I talk I talked about this yesterday I cannot see a scenario where he accepts a plea that doesn't contain significant prison time they're saying he's at the
top of this criminal Enterprise he's the dawn right I I don't imagine they could present him something would it be turning against other high-profile people I don't know where he doesn't get a minimum of 10 years in prison correct me if I'm wrong do you see a deal happening the deal I agree with you would have to include serious prison time can you imagine they go through all this the press conference the interviews the shocking video that the world sees they say okay we've settled probation you go that would be like a Jeffrey Epstein style
Scandal that will not happen so anything that results in a settlement will include an orange jumpsuit and steel bracelets for Diddy for years will Diddy accept that I don't think so I think he thinks he's above it all that he could beat the rap that's why I think he's in such a State of Shock right now where according to reports he's not eating he's on suicide watch I don't think he ever expected to be in this situation and I think he thinks it's just a matter of time where his great lawyers are going to be
able to bring him so I don't think there'll be a deal in this case um but again do you think there's any any scenario where he'd be like why would they they want to avoid a trial because of the time the cost the heartache of a trial I get it but at the same time what would it look like what how much time could he get that a deal 20 years hey you're not getting life in prison but you're getting 20 years for Diddy that's like a death sentence because he's 54 yeah 54 not that
he he won't live longer than 20 years it's just that he's used to styling and profiling to borrow Ric Flair phrase he has his private jets he's got his his Mansion you know cigars and his fast living to to live like an inmate a federal inmate that's not what he wants and every day he's there is a piece of his soul just gets stolen away so I think that he's going to go For Broke he's gonna go to trial and he's going to depend on his great lawyers to get him off so uh if this
progresses if there's no uh plea that's ultimately worked out that we go to a preliminary hearing and my question to you about that is and that's where the government has to show that there's enough evidence to move forward with trial how much would the prosecution show their hand you're deal right now we have no idea who's cooperating with the government you're dealing with a sensitive sexual sex crimes case you don't necessarily want to reveal who's been working with you who these accusers are it's going to be really tough for them right they're going to be
in the public Spotlight look what happen with R Kelly um so I wonder how much do they have to reveal at a preliminary hearing how much do they have to reveal leading up to a trial one of the benefits of being a federal prosecutor as opposed to being a state prosecutor like I am is that you don't have to provide the defense with the discovery you do in state court in State Court you got to show them everything you got to open people up to depositions federal court is much better for the government that's a
reason why the government does so well in Prosecuting getting 97% of their cases so if you ever happen to be prosecuted by anyone you should hope it's by the state officials and not the federal officials so uh I don't have an easy answer as to when this would have to be turned over but much later and much less disclosure than If This Were tried in State Court okay so so there's a chance that we might not know what they have the full breath of what they have until basically trial trial right it'll be up to
the judge but that's correct until trial okay and could they could they say um you know with the preliminary hearing could they not identify who the Witnesses are um would it be some Shield put on you just call them janeo number one J joho number one something like that up to the judge you know there is extra secrecy and protection for victims of sex crimes so we'll have to see where this goes now especially when you have an individual who's accused of tampering with witnesses to threaten witnesses there would be an order not to reveal
the names of the victims and witnesses to the public you have to keep it quiet but at some point you know you're entitled to confront your accuser and to know the charges against you so it's just a question of when the defense will be notified the identity of all the players the defense yeah that's a good point I'm also thinking just you know I'm thinking from a media point of view and a public point of view how much we would know versus the defend and I hear what you you'll know less right OB um all
right I wanna I want to go with this now so now you're at a trial and you have to prove the case racketeering conspiracy H how do you prove that because are you saying there was a criminal agreement there was a criminal Enterprise there was a common purpose there were underlying crimes there were overt acts and furtherance of a agreement it is so complicated right I mean how do you present that to a jury where a they understand it and B they know what they're supposed to do racketeering is a prosecutor's best friend it's not
just for the mafia anymore because a racketeering case allows you to bring up stuff that occurred beyond the statute limitations you're allowed you open it up also you get much heavier penalties so you take two separate crimes and you combine them into racketeering if they're two predicate crimes and now you're facing the rest of your life in prison really so it helps prosecutors in different ways now as far as explaining it to a jury you just say you gotta prove we got to prove these charges these predicate crimes can we prove you know the drug
crimes the gun crimes can we prove Beyond Reasonable Doubt you tried to prove those still have to prove it Beyond Reasonable Doubt the jury has to be unanimous but you get the reward of bringing in conduct that you otherwise would not have been able to bring in it's much more relevant now if it's racketeering an ongoing criminal Enterprise you get to look back further in time you get to bring in more acts than you otherwise would have that's why I say Rico AKA racketeering is a prosecutor's best friend how do you prove sex trafficking by
force fraud or coercion that's why that video is important that video which is older which may not relate to a crime charge specifically here in this case but because of the recoil law it can be brought in its evidence of force this is how Diddy allegedly kept Cassie and others in line he used Force you know that video is going to turn jurors against Diddy Diddy could deny all he wants people lie video doesn't final question for you think it'll be tough getting a jury for uh the prosecutors in this case I don't because I
have had high-profile cases in my jurisdiction you don't need jurors that are blank slates empty vessels they can know about the case they can even have some opinions about the case as long as they promise to set them de side and follow the evidence and the law you could get a jury in any high-profile case we got it in the case of Donald Trump in New York the case is yep so you can do it anywhere and prosecutors and defense lawyers are good at vetting jurors weeding out those who are just Trojan Horse candidates who
just are saying what they want you to get on the jury to tell their friends and write a book so they're really good at weeding them out and finding the right jurors Dave arenburg do you have to go back to Florida can you stay here I want to do a breakdown of every aspect of this case with you you were great my friend thank you so much for coming on really appreciate it thank you Jesse all right everybody that's all we have for you right now here on sidebar thank you so much for joining us
and as always please subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify YouTube wherever you get your podcast I'm Jesse Weber speak to you next time [Music]
