with me now Hugo LEL senior political correspondent for the guardian along with Republican strategist Susan Del perio and former Republican Congressman David Jolly both of whom are MSNBC political analysts good to see all three of you my friends so Hugo you first because there new Washington Post profiles out there on Biden's presidency and it reports Biden and some of his AIDS still believe he should have stayed in the race and have recently said he could have beaten Trump where is there certainty coming from I mean is it because he's the only one who did beat
Trump in a presidential race or is there something else to it I think that's mainly it you know on both sides of the aisle during the campaign in the wake of Biden dropping out you know even people like kellyan Conway was was telling Trump and maybe this is partly where it's coming from calian Conway was telling Trump that uh now he was basically having a clear field because the only person who had beaten him previously was Joe Biden and Trump had previously beaten a woman so Kellan K told the former president that he had a
clear Lane and he you know he was in the best position ultimately that that he could imagine and I think Joe Biden's team for a long time has also felt this way you know you speak to people in and around the administration and and they have long said that Biden was seen as a unifier you know beyond all else and he was also someone who had previously beaten Trump at his own game when Trump was perhaps the strongest when he was the incumbent president and so I think uh I think there was there was a
lot of mixed feeling about Biden having to drop out and maybe there's some bias remorse especially from the from the Biden side okay flips side Susan because many Democrats hold the opposite view they say that he stayed in the race too long how does the Democratic party move forward if there's still such fundamental disagreement about what went wrong they have to get over what went wrong and deal with what's in front of them and that is trying to at least get better policy out of the what the Republicans propos um or in line with their
political beliefs 2024 is just a b over and the only thing that Democrats have to focus on now is working on their messaging and and they should know by now talking about the past isn't going to get them there so and and by the way for the record I was one who talked about the past too I was I I was definitely off on that messaging but you have to go forward and without a strong party leader nationally it's going to come down to probably hakee Jeff showing Democrats where they should put their energies so
David Biden's National Security adviser Jake Sullivan said the president has been operating on a Time Horizon measured in decades while the political cycle is measured in four years and he repeated something Biden has said that many of his accomplishments will take time to really be felt how big is the concern out there that Trump will get the credit at least in the short term for what Biden accomplishes and can Democrats keep it from happening yeah look I I think the contrast in leadership might provide the answer to that what I mean by that is Joe
Biden is a sober steady leader who is okay with policies that have second and third order effects so we are not going to end the war in Ukraine by surrendering to Vladimir Putin he's going to restore economic growth with a slow and steady Pace returning people to work bringing inflation down real wages up investments in infrastructure he's going to restore democracy which is kind of a long-term game coming out of the first four Trump years Donald Trump's not concerned about second and third order effects he's concerned about right now and so his fiscal policy will
be one where he drives up debts and deficits without question renews tax cuts he'll try to lower interest rates he'll create bubbles but as long as it feels good for four years Donald Trump will declare Victory and so will it be a combination of the foundation that Joe Biden leaves for Donald Trump or some quick fixes by Donald Trump probably both but the difference between the two is Joe Biden was looking over a Time Horizon as Jake Sullivan said of decades Donald Trump's gonna be looking at four years give me credit right now I don't
care about who comes after me yeah you're right uh Hugo Trump and Congressional Republicans they seem to be pretty much laying the groundwork to charge members of the January 6 committee and its Witnesses I know you spoke to incoming house Judiciary Committee ranking member Jamie Rasin and here's what he said about claims that star witness Cassidy Hutchinson was pressured and committed perjury take a listen they haven't contct contradicted a single thing that Cassidy Hutchinson said or any of the factual statements that we made in the report so it's very hard to see how you build
a legal case around any of that what is your impression of how seriously Democrats are taking the threat of charges against these members it's it's a difficult question right because Republicans and and and Trump allies have long said you know even if we don't end up pursuing these criminal cases to what would be otherwise a logical end to sort of charges and a grand jury if we can make the life difficult for Democrats and who who served on the January 6 Comm even Republicans people like Liz chain if you can make their life difficult if
you can make the life difficult for Witnesses then that's kind of our retribution because you know they put us through hell so we're going to put them through hell and that's been the prevailing sense I think when you Congressman Raskin was talking about the viability of charges and and how strong the evidence was clearly there is nothing there especially members of Congress like Liz Cheney are protected by the speech or debate clause it basically means they cannot be questioned in any place other than Congress so the idea that they're going to you know subpoena Liz
Cheney's Communications it's going to be it's basically a nonstarter it's basically unenforcable uh through the justice department and by the way that was the same tactic that Republicans used to start me the January 6 committee when the shoe was on the other foot I think there is bigger concern for people like Cassy Hutchinson the witnesses who testified you know they're being effectively accused of perjuring themselves or Mis or misstating or distorting the truth of January 6 committee but that's also a really high Bar for a for a typical criminal investigation because you have to prove
that sort of intent um but I I I think it's very likely that Republicans will try and push this ball if only to make life difficult for for the January 6 Witnesses but my question to you Susan is beyond what your take is how legitimate is this threat against the committee members I mean how could cash pel if uh confirmed as head of the FBI and subsequently Pam Bondi confirmed as attorney general how would they play into Trump's threats I don't think they will I think what the Republicans are probably going to do is open
up Congressional investigations and drag all of these people through the process again try to catch them up under oath I don't think it bringing charges is number one I think having those hearings and frankly creating typical Trump style a lot of smoke and mirrors to keep the keep keep people distracted but their findings again they can refer inform uh of charges to doj but they can't really do anything so I think this is all about Congressional hearings more so than when it comes to doj pressing charges okay uh last question to you David because Trump
has repeatedly said a day one priority pardoning January 6th riers ring Stone asked the transition team if those pardons could include those that have been imprisoned on sedici conspiracy charges we're talking like the leaders of the oathkeepers or proud boys the Trump team didn't rule it out saying it would be handled on a case-by Case basis quote for those who were denied a due process and unfairly targeted by the justice system what happens when Trump decides these serious offenders were unfairly targeted well then Trump needs to be held accountable some of them might make sympath
sympathetic cases for a pardon the grandmother who walked through the capital fine but some of these are really bad people including one who just got caught trying to sign up with the Russians to fight Ukraine against the interest of the United States that's somebody that he might also pardon I'm very curious Alex on day one starting with the inauguration speech you know his first inaugura inauguration speech we saw American Carnage it surprised a lot of people the tone I think one of the things Donald Trump wants to do this term starting on day one is
rewrite history we're going to see it on Co having RFK Jr there we're going to see it on Russia having Tulsi gabard there we're going to see it with a lot of the prosecutions by having Kos Patel there should these people get confirmed but I think we're also going to see retelling of January 6 and the question is does that start with his inauguration speech or is it something that happens by way of Pardons but but or is it a prosecution an attempted prosecution of Liz Cheney I do think Donald Trump wants to rewrite history
and to do that he's going to force upon the American people a narrative that largely is untrue but that he hopes with conservative media's influence he can win out with stunning commentary to which I say uh buckle up everybody effective January 20 thank you very much good to see all three of you
