“You Were Never Born & You Will Never Die”- Rupert Spira PROVES How Life Is A Dream You’re Imagining

Where does creation fit in to the whole aspect of non-duality? All there is is consciousness. How does creation come about if if that which truly is is infinite, indivisible and formless?

How do we account for all of this? And this is exactly the mechanism that takes place when you have a dream at night. Imagine that you fall asleep at home here in New York.

You dream that you're walking on the streets of London. You dream the streets of London within your own mind, but you don't view the streets of London from your bed here in New York. In order to view the dreamed world, your own mind not only creates or imagines the speeds of London within itself, it localizes itself on the streets of London within its own imagination.

Manifestation is the interface between infinite consciousness and the finite mind that it seems to become. When you had a dream at night, no real speeds of mand are created. It's just an appearance of the reality of your finite mind.

There's no real universe there as it is normally conceived. There's no real person or separate out there. These are appearances.

Considering this is ultimate truth, who has free will or do we have an illusion of free will? It's true. I don't believe in reincarnation because I don't believe in incarnation.

Before we start this podcast, I just want to make one humble request. If you haven't already, please do subscribe to this channel and press the notifications bell icon. This really helps us bring more guests to the show and have the platform to spread wisdom.

Thank you and enjoy the podcast. Thank you so much Rupert for coming on to our show Under the Tree. You've been one of our most awaited guests.

Thank you. I just want to dive for it into a question that personally has the new mind for a long time which is about where does creation fit in to the whole aspect of non-duality because there's a story I'm sure you know by Alan walks where God god god forward and inside to create multiple versions of himself and god may god forgot who he was. Um another question that arises from that just so you can answer that as well is why would we despite having this true nature at all times decide to forget?

So that the nondual understanding suggests that reality is is one single indivisible not constituted of parts. it it's whole. It's complete and being one.

There's nothing in itself with which it could be either divided up or limited. If you think of imagined physical space, the vast physical space of the universe before there was anything in it to it's not too accurate to model it, but just imagine the vast physical space of universe before there was any physics objects, galaxies. All there is is physical space.

There's nothing in that space with which the space could be divided. You can't make a wall out of empty space. A wall made out of empty entry space wouldn't divide anything from anything.

And likewise, there would be nothing to limit the space. No edge, no order. So the space would be unlimited.

It's like that. The nondual understanding suggests that reality is is one, seamless, indivisible, whole, complete, infinite without a limit and and perfect. There's nothing in itself other than itself which would tarnish it or or could be an imperfection and and this is not an an abstract idea of of some other realm apart from this realm.

Okay. Reality is that which truly is, not that which truly is in a in another universe as opposed to this universe where there are a multistrician diversity of objects and people all made out of matter. It means that reality all that there truly is here now in in in this realm is only one infinite indivisible whole whose nature is being or being aware aware being consciousness the system the stuff that is reality and that that is all there is.

All there is is consciousness and consciousness is it inherently the light like empty space before the appearance of any object within empty spaces is empty. There's no there's no form there. There's no sight, no shapework.

And consciousness is like that. And actually this is this is in fact our experience. If we go directly if we go to our thoughts, feelings, sensations, perceptions, there is form there.

There is duration. There is there are qualities. But if we go directly to the experience of being aware, there's no there's no qualities there.

It it's formless. So to your question now, so how does creation come about if if that which truly is is infinite, indivisible and formulas, how do we account for all of this? Would there is undoubtedly experience?

We may not be experiencing a world, but even if this isn't a world, it is undoubtedly an experience. There is something here. There's not nothing here.

There's something. So how do we account for that? If for the sake how does the nondual understanding account for this?

If at the same time me says that reality that which truly is is without form. So the nondual understanding is just that reality the infinite infinite consciousness is an without form but it contains all possible forms all possible experiences within itself in potential that they are they are unmanifest. It's just an realm of infinite potential.

Now in order to manifest any of that formless potential in form consciousness has to divide itself or seen to divide itself into a subject and an object the appearance and reality. Now why is this? It's because in order for anything to be experienced or or known, that thing must be known in subject object relationship.

Why can't you see your own eyes? Because your eyes can't stand apart from themselves and look back at themselves. You can see me because you stand at a distance from me.

You can see the cameras, the lights, the windows, the sky, the trees. You can see everything that stands at a distance from yourself. But the only thing your eyes can't see are themselves.

Because seeing requires a subject and an object and all experience, all knowledge and experience take place in subject object relationship. In order to know an object, be that object a thought, an emotion, memory, a tree, then all knowledge and experience takes place in subject object relationship which requires the subject standing apart from the object. So what duality of a subject object relationship is the mechanism through which objective experience is known.

So the subject object relationship is the mechanism through which the potential that lies in consciousness is brought out into manifestation. So consciousness locally divides or seems to divide itself in two into a subject that knows and an object that is known. So it divides itself into a perceiver and a and a perceived.

And it's only from the point of view of the perceiver that it can know objective experience. And this is um exactly the mechanism that takes place when you had a dream at night. You imagine that you fall asleep at home here in in um New York.

Uh but you you dream that you're in London, walking on the streets of London. Now your own mind your and I'm talking now about your limited minds but it's but it's an analogy for conscience but your own limited mind is is a single homogeneous field of consciousness or albeit a limited field but nevertheless you dream the streets of London within your own mind but you don't view the streets of London from your bed here in New York. In order to view the the dreamed world, the streets of London, your own mind not only creates or imagines the streets of London within itself, it localizes itself on the streets of London within its own imagination as an apparently separate subject of experience from whose point of view it perceives itself or finite as an outside world.

When you wake up, you realize there was no outside world there. There was no real division in my mind didn't really divide itself into two parts. My mind is always a hole.

But from the point of view of the person that you seemed to be in a dream, your consciousness or the consciousness with which you were perceiving the streets of London lived just behind your eyes in your head. And everything on the streets of London seem to be outside your consciousness. And your experience seems to corroborate this.

When you close your eyes, it is in your dream. You're on the streets of Maldip. When you close your eyes, the streets of London disappear.

When you open your eyes, can the streets of London reappear. So it seems reasonable to conclude that whatever it is that is perceiving moves just behind your eyes. It in your brain.

Of course, when you wake up, you realize, oh, that the knowing with which I perceived the streets of London didn't reside in my body. It didn't reside in my brain. It didn't reside anywhere in the time and space that seemed to be real on the streets of London.

It it it lived in your in your mind, a seat in New York. Um, however, your mind couldn't access the dream directly. You can't be aware of your dream that speech at London directly from your bed in New York.

You have to forget that you're sleeping in New York. You have to localize yourself within your own imagination. And it is only from the point of view of that localized mind that you are able to see what is in fact the inside of your own mind, but it appears as the outside world.

Now I would suggest this was a mechanism that is it it's exactly what happens but one one level up that infinite consciousness imagines as it were. It's it's a realm of infinite potential, but it imagines the universe in itself and simultaneously localizes itself within its own imagination has an apparently separate finite mind from whose point of view it looks at itself, its own activity, but it perceives it as the universe. The difference between an individual a dream, the dream that you had and that is that you localize yourself as a single perceiver within your own dream.

Whereas I would suggest that infinite consciousness localizes itself as numerous apparent perceivers. Of course and I say apparent because in reality there are no individual that just as there's no re you don't really become a mind or individual mind on the streets of London in your own you only seem to likewise I would suggest consciousness seems to become numerous finite minds and through each of their perceiving faculties it perceives itself as the universe. So this subject object mechanism is the means by which consciousness draws manifestation draws existence out of being draws manifestation out of potential.

It's through this mechanism of subject object relationship that what is in reality one infinite formlessness and indivisible appears as many finite things. So and that that's the the subject object relationship is the mechanism of creation or manifestation. Now, so we could say that manifestation is the interface between infinite consciousness and the finite mind that it seems to become.

Infinite conscience by itself prior to localizing itself as a finite mind has no knowledge or experience because it cannot stand apart from itself. So all infinite consciousness knows is its own being. There's no objective knowledge.

It knows nothing. It is everything but it knows nothing. It experiences nothing.

In order to experience something, it must localize itself and become an apparently separate experience. So, so manifestational creation is is the the interface between it's where the finite mind meets. It's the interface between the finite mind and infinite consciousness.

And that creates the illusion of a world, the illusion of a created world. Why do I say that? Because nothing real other than infinite consciousness is really created.

When a movie begins that the screen appears as a landscape but no real landscape has been created. It's just the screen. When you had a dream at night no real streets of wonder are created.

It's just an appearance of the reality of your finite relatively speaking. So nothing nothing apart from infinite consciousness is created. It all takes place as it were in the imagination of infinite conscience.

It's only in the activity of infinite consciousness. So in the alternate analysis there's no creation. Nothing exists and and make a statement like that.

I have to qualify it because it's a if wrong romly understood it could appear to be very nihilistic a lifenying statement. It's not. It's the opposite.

Can I can I ask something cuz I think you're going to get to it anyways right now. So there is a a conversation in deeper where you said you don't believe in incarnation let alone reincarnation um in the context of that you are never born and you never die. So I think that's what that's what you're probably going to talk about as well that if you can elaborate on that uh what does that mean and because there are a lot of most of the people that believe in a concept of reincarnation I I just want to backtrack one step because having made this very bold statement that nothing exists I I want to be sure that that's not misunderstood it because it could appear to be a very nihilistic and and and world denying life denying exper But it it's actually it's actually the opposite.

What I'm doing is is what um the filmmaker Paselini Sepin he said of his films. He said I am trying to restore to reality its original sacred significance. That's what I'm trying to I'm not trying to downgrade the world.

I'm trying to upgrade the wall. I'm trying to restore to the world its original sacred significance. So what do I mean when I say nothing?

In in the ultimate announcements must exist. The word existence comes from two Latin words ex meaning and cyister meaning to stand. Suggesting that something that exists stands out from its background or its reality.

It's like suggesting that a landscape in movie stands out from the screen. If a landscape exists, it stands out from the screen. But the landscape doesn't stand out from the screen.

The landscape doesn't exist. It's just an appearance of what is being. So infinite consciousness divides or seems to divide itself into the localized perspective of a finite mind.

It perceives itself as the universe. But there's no real universe there as it is normally conceived. There's no real person or separate self there.

These are appearances that are brought about through this apparent division into the subject object relationship. The only stuff that truly is is infinite consciousness. Things seem to exist, but all seeming things borrow their existence from being.

They don't have their independent existence. Nothing has an independent everything that seems to exist borrows its apparent existence from that which truly is namely being or being aware. Now that leads nicely into your into your next question.

Um it it's true I don't believe in reincarnation because I don't believe in incarnation. What is incarnation? The belief that that what we are what we truly are is born and incarnate into the body.

The belief that that what we truly are the one reality infinite consciousness is born in a body. That's that believing that that um the space of the universe was born into this room when this building was bu it it's is already here. It was already here.

And although now it seems to be enclosed within and limited to the four walls of the room, even now the space in this room is not in this room. It just seems to be. So even now the being that we essentially are seems to be located in and limited to the the body, but even now it isn't.

And it's exactly the same in your dream. and you dream that you're that you're asleep in New in your bed in New York or you dream that you're on walking in in London. It seems that your mind and your relatively speaking your mind in in New York is located in your body on the streets of London.

It's not located in your body. The entire streets of London including your body are located in your mind. So I would suggest exactly the same thing.

It is happening now. But what we truly are consciousness is perceiving through the faculties of the mind but is not located in the mind. So even now we are not incarnate.

We are not in the body. We are not limited to the body. We are not generated by the body.

But we see through the perceiving faculties of the body. In fact, just to go back a little bit about what I said that consciousness mochanizing itself or seeming to localize itself as a separate subject to its brains. What is the mechanism by which that apparent workization takes place?

Perception. Imagine a white piece of paper that represents infinite consciousness. And then just with a pencil draw a little circle on the white.

That's now there is a bounded consciousness within the vast consciousness. That's the finite mind. Now what's that boundary made of perception seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.

So it is consciousness itself that arises in the form of perception and in doing so it seems to cast a boundary in itself and it it seems to locize itself. It then looks out from within that boundary through the perceiving membrane and it sees itself the rest of the white paper in a way that is consistent with the limitations of those perceiving faculties considering this is ultimate truth has free will or do we have an oblusion of free will and but I mean we um I'm talking about the mind body that I call in here or you call it whooper in this real in a transactional world do we have an illusion of free will. Should we opt as if we have free will?

Of course. But do we really have free will? The castin le has free will that there is no character called king.

There's no real person called king. He's John Smith acting. John Smith has within the limits of the analogy.

John Smith is free. But in the form of King Le does King Leah have free will that there isn't personally called King Leia either to have free will or not to have free will. So the question is made really however we do as the C is separate subject periods.

We do feel that we have free will and that feeling is not altogether illusioning. It it it is we all know we all feel in our in our in our gulp. We all feel I am inherently free.

That's why nobody likes to be restricted. Everybody loves freedom. Is there is there anybody that loves to be conscripted and confined and limited and you know we all love freedom.

Why? And nor do we feel that freedom is something that we should earn that some people should have more freedom than others. We all feel that freedom is our birthright.

It's freely given and that everyone should have it equally. Why do we feel this? It's because of this intuition that we have.

Even if we don't formulate it in the terms that on which we are speaking, it's because we all intuit it. In fact, it's more than an in intuition. It's a recognition that what we are at the deepest level is free.

We all know that. And it's because of that that we all love freedom that we rail against any kind of limitation because we we we want to live in a way that is consistent with who we truly are. So and it's for this reason what we feel we have free free will that the freedom we have and we do have freedom the freedom we have doesn't belong to us as a separate person.

It is the freedom that is in inherent in conscience that is the nature of consciousness flowing through the conditioned faculties of our mind and body. Um a big question criticism that people who get into nology or have is that you need to smubble the mind in to even understand this when all they realize is true like because I don't know what people also lack on can awareness be aware of itself or can awareness be aware of itself and or is the mind necessary for awareness to be aware of itself? Awareness cannot not be aware of itself.

You ask the question, can awareness be aware of itself? It's like asking the question, can the sun illuminate itself? The sun cannot not illuminate itself.

The nature of the sun is my illumination. And therefore, just by being itself, it illuminates itself. Awareness is like in other words the sun is self lunous.

It doesn't have to do anything better. It doesn't have to practice or meditate or it it just illuminates itself just by being so consciousness is like that. Its nature conscious or aware I use the words synonymous consciousness is is by nature conscious or aware.

It its nature is awareness. So it cannot not be aware of itself just by being itself. It knows itself.

Not not in subject or object relationship. That consciousness is knowledge of itself is the only experience there is that does not take place in subject to object relationship. All other experience without exception takes place in subject object relationship except the awareness of be.

Consciousness is knowledge of itself. In just the same way we could some that say that all the planets are illuminated by the sun in subject object relationship. The sun is the subject of the illumination and the earth and the moon and the other planets are objects of that illumination.

But it's illumination of itself doesn't take place in subject object relationship. It can't stand a part of nor need it in order to illuminate itself. Consciousness is like that.

is self luminous or self annoying and it's the only experience there is that is not mediated through the subject of relationship not mediated through a fog of mind and therefore it's the only knowledge that is perhaps soonly true and now the second part of your question can awareness be aware of itself or does it need a finite mind to know itself Consciousness cannot just as it cannot not know itself by itself. Consciousness cannot know itself directly through the finite mind because the finite mind is like a filter. It's like a pair of glasses in a human being.

It's made of thinking and perceiving. So everything that is known through the finite mind shares the limitations of that finite mind and appears in accordance with those limitations. Why do we experience the world as a series of sights, sounds, tastes, spectures and smells?

Because our perceiving faculties consist of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling. So there is a direct correspondence between our perceiving faculties and what we perceive as the world. So everything that is known through and and the finite mind is by definition limited.

It's like a pair of limited glasses or a VR headset that consciousness puts on and everything consciousness sees through that finite mind that VR headset appears in accordance with the limitations of that headset. So cons consciousness not only does it not need the finite mind in order to know itself, it cannot know itself through the finite mind. We can't see white snow through orange tinted glasses.

Consciousness does need the finite mind in order to perceive the world. Consciousness cannot see the world directly. Consciousness knows nothing by itself.

Consciousness has no experience. Why? Because as we've discussed, in order to know or experience something, you must stand apart from that thing in subject object relationship.

The reason you can see that tree is because you see it from a single point of view. Imagine you were looking at that tree and you were to see it from 10 different points of view simultaneously and then you were to superimpose all those 10 images on top of one. It wouldn't look like a tree anymore.

It's because you see in order to see one tree you must see it from one point of view. Imagine if consciousness by itself could perceive the tree. It would perceive the tree from every possible point of view in space and it would superimpose all those images on top of one another.

What would remain? It would just be the deepest darkest brackets you could imagine. There would be no no format.

In order to see an object, you consciousness has to exclude all the other points of view. Localize itself as one point of view. It's only from that one point of view that consciousness can see an object by itself.

Consciousness cannot know or perceive anything. The mind is needed to know to know anything objective. Be that the objective world or I include in objective knowledge thoughts to know a thought that that I know my thoughts.

I perceive the tree. The knowledge of our thoughts and the perception of the world, they all take place in subject object relationship. But all of that has to be mediated through a finite mind.

In the absence of a finite mind, consciousness has no objective experience. All it knows is its own being. So a consciousness requires needs to localize itself as a finite mind in order to have objective experience.

Be that objective experience the experience of the world or the experience of thoughts and emotions. But it in the form of the finite mind or through the faculties of a finite mind it cannot know itself. It's like it's like um John Smith can't know himself through the character of Kelier.

Kelier cannot know John Smith. Only John Smith can know John Smith. If John Smith wants to know Cordia or wants to be king of England then he has to assume the form of King Le.

But in order to know himself, not only does Imman need to dress up as King in the form of King, he cannot know himself. He knows himself by himself direct or consciousness is by there are a lot of scientists who are also researching about space and time. Donald's Hopin specifically says that space and time are tuned.

So can you talk about that from a nondual understanding? Yes. Yes.

Uh space and time are doomed in the sense that we used to think that space and time were inherent in reality itself. That that space and time were the the medium within which and the universe, our experience and so on. takes place that that is now that idea as you say more and all people toughen and then the others they're realizing that's not true space and time is how reality appears when it is modulated through a human mind.

Our a human mind consists of the twin faculties of thinking and perceiving. So when consciousness looks through a human mind at itself, that's all there is in reality to look at. It's its experience of itself is modulated through the limitations of that mind.

And the human mind consists of thinking and perceiving. So when consciousness looks through the faculty of thinking, it no longer knows itself as it truly is because it's been mediated through the mind through thinking. So when consciousness looks at reality through the faculty of thinking, it appears as time.

When consciousness looks at itself through the faculty of perception, it appears to itself as space. So time and space are how the eternal infinite nature of consciousness appear to itself when it views itself through the faculties of thought and perception. We could say that thought and perception superimpose time space opto reality which is itself eternal and infinite.

Eternal and infinite. Eternal must mean everlasting in time and infinite doesn't mean um without limits in space. It means not in time or space.

So when when consciousness looks at itself, when consciousness refracts itself through the faculties of thought and perception, its eternal infinite reality appears as time and space. Time and space aren't our in. It's not the time and space are a property of the mind.

He's thinking and perceiving that is a property of the mind. The thinking and perceiving confirm time and space on reality. They make reality look as if they were time and space.

But but in reality there's no time and space. And this is actually your experience. Well, this is something that that's it it might sound very abstract and philosophical, but let's just do a little experiment.

Um, would you agree that your experience is taking place now? Would you agree that all experience takes place now? Yes.

Now, can you step out of the now into the past just just for a moment? Has anybody ever left the experience we call now and and visited the place we imagine called the past? It just had like a remembrance of it.

But we can't but but the memory takes place now. Correct. We with our memory we imagine the past but we can't actually go there.

With our imagination we can imagine the future but we can't actually step out of now and go into the future. of the past and the and the future are never experienced their imagin now is experience. we are undoubtedly experiencing now.

Since we've been talking, how many nows had you for? Only. Only more in in your life, how many hours have you experienced?

Just one. And and given that you've never experienced a past or a future, in other words, you've never actually experienced a line of time, how long does the non last? It's always zero, but it doesn't block.

It doesn't. The now is not a moment on a horizontal line of time. It is the vertical dimension of being.

But the vertical dimension of being intersects the horizontal line of time that the point we call now. So from the point of view of the mind which imagines a line of time the now is a moment the present moment. But from the point of view of reality now is eternity.

So now partakes both of time and eternity. From the point of view of time, it is conceived as a moment. From the point of view of reality, it is it is now in other words time is never actually takes that this is not hyalen philosophy.

This is good. It is philosophy. But it's the true philosophy that is derived from experience not from abstract reason.

I if you go deeply into the experience of now as you quite rightly say that that there's only now. There's only one now. That the now has no duration and the now is not moving along a line of time.

The now is stationary. Now do the same experiment with space. It's more difficult with space.

Would you agree that your experience is currently taking place here? Would you agree that your experience always takes place here? It's true.

Have you ever been over there? Only in imagination. You've imagined.

Yes. But we've imagined the past when we imagine the future, but we can't actually go there. Not reality.

We we we we imagine over there. But when we try to go over there, it's like trying to go into the past. We we realize it's always here.

But our experience is always here. And here is not it's not a location in space that the here doesn't move through space. that it here is the is not a place in space.

It is the place where consciousness is. It is the place where I am. Just that just as now has no is not extended in two dimensions of time.

The here is not a a place in three dimensions of space. Three dimensions of space are it's an illusion created by the senses. And this is confirmed by our experience.

that that we are always here. Uh have you not had the experience when you go traveling, you go on a long journey for to the west coast or something? When you're right there, you you have this uncanny feed.

I've been here all the way. I haven't gone anywhere. It's always beat.

It's beat. And somebody asked you, "How long did the journey take? " And you you pause them.

You If he didn't take any time, he was now all the way. I was here. I was here now.

The world moved through me. I didn't move through the world. It's perception that makes you think you move through the world.

In reality, the here and now are not in time and space. They are the the timeless placeless place of consciousness. And it doesn't it never goes anywhere.

Sensations and perceptions flow through us but we don't flow in that inter consciousness on that. Time and space are what consciousness look like when mediated through the faculties of thought into perception. They're not really there and and we don't have they would have had too much time but but that is actually our experience you can verify this what I'm speaking is not they haven't derived it from mathematics or from philosophy or it it's it's my experience it's it's your preach it's everybody's experience but most people's experience is so overlaid with beliefs plus the apparent evidence of sense perception that we don't realize that we're experiencing this.

We we we we see con we're convinced that our experience takes place in time and space and in contrast to that what I'm suggesting seems to be abstract highutiny philosophy it's all it's the opposite a belief in time and space that is time space abstract ground that nobody has ever seen or experienced just concepts are just it's concept it it's it's like um you know it's not I said earlier mind our faculty's thought and reception that like glasses that we wear. It's more like contact lenses. You know, if you wear glasses, you I'm wearing tealis.

Okay. I bet you forget you've got contact lenses on some but okay. I never forget I got glasses and I'm always aware I'm wearing glasses.

But you've got contact lenses on. They're so close to your eyes you forget that you're wearing them. Now imagine your contact lenses were tinted green.

You everything you see would be green. But because you've forgotten you're wearing contact lenses, you think everything is green, right? No, it's not.

In your contact lenses are green. But our thinking and perceiving faculties are like contact lenses. It's not like a pair of glasses or even a heavy VR headset.

It's like contact lenses that consciousness is wearing. And the contact lenses are tinted with thought and perception, but it's so so close to consciousness that we don't realize we're wearing the lenses of thought and perception. So we think time and space is out there.

It's not. It's in the perceiving faculties. What's out there is the infinite the and and of course even to say it's out there is not quite right.

That I'm making a concession to to our our normal to common powers. It it it's difficult. You see our language has evolved to describe the content of experience.

time, space, time and space are implicit in almost everything we say. So when we try to talk about these things, all we've got are these rather clumsy abstract symbols that were that were designed to to describe things and now we're trying to use them skillfully in way to describe or not to describe and can't describe reality but to invoke reality um in all in in a way they weren't really meant for. So language is But let me put another way.

Everything nothing I say have said today is absolutely be true with a possible exception of I am. Everything else is my very best attempt to not describe but to evoke reality in the listener using reason sometimes using experiments sometimes using analogies. metaphors just to try and give us a taste.

You know, Suzanne said this beautiful thing about his paintings. He said, "What I'm trying to do with my paintings is give people a taste of nature's eternity. " He didn't say, "I'm trying to explain nature's eternity.

" Nobody can explain nature's eternity. But that's what the artist tries to do to to take us there, to give us the visceral experience or taste. And that's what that's what I'm trying to do with my words.

Kanzi as as they are, I'm not trying to describe reality. I acknowledge that can't be done. I am is the or the very best I could do would be to amend silent.

That wouldn't be very efficient. The next best is I am. But even that is not efficient unless you really understand it.

So some explanation is needed and and we do our best not to describe but to book with in in in our viewers in our in our listeners and in in each other how does this understanding work? how [Music] um this understanding it's like um we just take it into oursel. We listen to it.

We read it. We ponder it. We turn it over.

We our mind raises objections. We ask questions. We shave a response.

We measure the response against our own experience. We ponder it. We we just take this understanding in we take in words the ideas we take them in we let and do their own work inside us.

We can't grasp reality. You take in this understanding and it's like um this understanding is like a dissolving revealing agent. It just does its work inside our mind.

mind that is constantly pondering these matters, exploring them, pondering them, meditating them. The understanding does it does its work. It we don't do it.

The understanding does its work in us. And at very occasionally when this understanding begins to dawn on us that that there is a a big aha moment. It may be that recognition may be accompanied by unusual signs in the mind in the body but usually not.

Usually this the understanding just works in us as a dissolving revealing agent and it just gradually clears away all the all the doubts, all the obstructions or or the and and and gradually reality reveals itself to us. But it comes in through the back door. Doesn't come in through the front door.

It it steals up on us. Begins to overtake us. And in a way it's safest if it happens right out because we can never claim anything.

We never claim enlightenment or understanding or there's no there's no big event. It's just our vision of ourself of others of the world. It just it's gradually purified of all our old beliefs and feelings.

And more and more I experience that the world it begins to it begins to lose its bailing power. It begins to the world begins to shine with its reality. The forgetfulness, there is a forgetfulness.

The amnesia evaporates and that is felt on the inside as a deep peace, a deep indeturable causeless peace. And on on the outside um it's felt as Islam. Thank you so much, Rer.

It's been a pleasure speaking with you. It's been pleasure. Thank you so much.

Thanks.