I'd really like to know if if if Jesus actually rose from the dead as a historical fact, I'd love to know if there was a real Exodus, you know? I like that's really interesting and important to me. Now, as somebody who who doesn't believe that those things did happen, I still have access to the to the meaning of the story of something like a resurrection.
Well, let's assume just for this, but I'm not a Christian. It's not enough for me to say, well, you know, do I believe that, you know, self-sacrifice is at the basis of of of a meaningful life? Oh, maybe.
But that's not enough to make me a Christian because I don't believe it's the case. I'm also I'm I'm quite interested actually how I mean you're obviously quite attracted to to Christianity and the Christian story. Um I mean you Jesus on your on your jacket but but but I I'm I'm interested how that um how that dovetales with your insistence on personal responsibility as uh the way to live a proper and meaningful life given that the story of Jesus is one of vicarious redemption.
I sort of throw my sins on him. You know, I I He takes responsibility for the sins that I've committed. Yeah.
Well, I'm you know, I'm I wonder how those go together. I'm Well, I'm What would you say? No.
Jesus Jesus. It's really good to have a divine ally. And I I think the more unairringly you aim upward, the more you walk with God.
And that does mean that Christ is beside you. Mhm. And so that is a reflection of the truth of vicarious redemption.
But that doesn't mean you have nothing to do. Right. And and Christ makes that very clear in the gospels.
Um not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Right? Only those who do the will of my father.
You must be willing to hate your brother and your well there there's it just see there there's a tension there because the vicarious redemption idea is a reflection of the mercy of God. M it's like if you and I I believe this to be the case as I said if your aim is upward then God is your ally right and so he's there with you bearing the cross but you're still obliged to carry it right and and you see that in the story too that's embedded in the passion story because there's an insistence in traditional Christianity that the suffering and the death that a man would experience in that situation were real despite the fact that God was also experiencing it. Right?
So there's this duality and I think that's reflected in the idea of vicarious redemption when it's understood properly. It's like yes, you'll have here's another way of thinking about it is that if you aim upward unairringly, you have the spirit of what's good. What are you saying?
You're you've established a relationship with the spirit of what's the highest good. Well, then that's with you. And that's that's that's that's not just a reality.
It's like the ultimate reality. It's it's partly it's it's naven alluded to that when he said if you have a why, you can bear any how. Well, what why?
Well, the ultimate why. Well, what does that enable you to do? To bear the ultimate how.
And that's exactly what the passion story is. And so there is a vicarious redemption there because if you do it properly, you don't have to do it alone, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing on you, you know, and and you see that too. There's an insistence in the entire biblical library that what humans are called to do is real.
Like we're we're made in the image of God. We're participating in the process by which possibility is transformed in order. We're building, as far as I'm concerned, we're we're either building the city of God or we're building its alternative, right?
Which the domain of hell actually, right? Actually, really, as well as metaphysical. I mean, that it's interesting you say hell and actually in the same sentence because well, it's easier to believe in hell than heaven.
Well, one of the other criticisms that I made of you in this video was that I I felt like you were appropriating religious language illegitimately to apply a sense of the sacred to profane things to to mundane things. And that's perhaps one example. So I can give you a few examples.
I mean one is um implied in what you just said there but you said it I think explicitly to to Matt Fra recently on on Pines with Aquinus where you said if you have studied any amount of history and you don't believe that hell is real. Right. Right.
Then you're an idiot. Mhm. Yeah.
I understand I think what you mean by that because hell like you know hell is a place on earth in many respects, right? like like if you study history and you and you look at just like what what levels of depravity humanity can sink to like and you could you could quite poetically say well if hell isn't the right word to describe that then I don't know what is say something like that right but clearly a theological conception of hell does not exist on planet earth somewhere you go after you die it's not so clear I wouldn't say it's so clear well certainly not in um in the in like the Jewish tradition um and and okay Maybe not in the okay maybe not but like I mean like a a modern Christian who asks you for example do you believe in hell and you know that what they mean they mean the place you go after you die you go after you die then when you respond and say sort of well of course hell is real well you don't believe in hell have you studied any amount of history if if you if you know it's sort of it feels like you're sort of describing two different things the other area where this this this largely happens I think is when you said that the very act of doing science see there there's concordance there between that concept of eternal punishment in the afterlife and the hell that is that unites all totalitarian states. But I don't know what the concordance is like it's it's I I don't understand like do do you and I don't speculate generally on anything that's let's say beyond death.
I mean what the hell can you say about that? I don't have anything to say about that. But that's another I don't know point, right?
So if I ask you for example, you know, do you think that Hitler is being punished now? You know, I mean, he's dead, but is he being punished or or did he ever get punished? See, see, the answer to that question is something like what is the relationship between the eancent consciousness of man and eternity?
And the answer is we don't know. Yeah. When Matt Frat asked you, do you believe in an afterlife?
You said that something like your behaviors or your actions resonate through eternal. Yeah. Well, there's that which is, you know, in a way an evasive answer too.
But the thing is we don't we don't understand. We exist in relationship to the infinite obviously what that relationship is. I don't no one knows how to conceptualize that in the final analysis.
I don't understand the relationship between our binding temporally and eternity. Like is there something permanent about our conscious experience? I don't I don't know.
I think I think you you excite your Christian listenership when you say like not only you know do I believe in hell but but you can't not believe in hell. I mean are you serious? You seriously don't believe in hell and they think ah here's here's a here's a strong sort of worry.
Well and you go while the other but then they realize that what you what you mean by hell you go well it's so I lots of human suffering and catastrophe you know on planet more than that because it's more than that you know because it is the case that the invitation to hell is offered by the eternal usurper of the moral order. That's true. You end up in hell because you lie.
That's also true. And so, but when you say that's true, you end up in hell because you lie. What do you mean?
Well, the total totality you're not allowed to use the word hell, right? Like what is the thing you're describing? You end up where?
In a totalitarian state. Yes. And and that's fine.
a state of ultimate misery. But I I think this is where somebody might be prone to confusion. And you could say that's their fault.
Maybe it is. But if somebody's listening to you and and do you believe in hell? And you say, "Of course I believe in hell.
How can you not believe in hell? " And they go, "Oh, you know, thank goodness because that that of course is my worldview. I'd love to know how I can defend my my vision of hell.
" And then they realize that when you say hell, what you actually mean is I mean, I guess I mean at least that. Sure. Right.
And so I'm often trying to make a minimal case, right? If I'm if I'm trying to elaborate on the meaning of a religious text, what I'm trying to say in all humility is it means at least this. Now, does that cover the entire territory of the meaning?
That's very unlikely. You're going to give an exhaustive account. I don't think so.
What does that mean in eternity? It's the same question. And and then we should draw this part to a close.
It's the same question in some sense as the reality of the resurrection of Christ. So the Christian interpretation is Christ defeats death and hell. Mhm.
Okay. Well, the logical objection to that is, well, where's the evidence for the defeat? Mhm.
Since death still exists and so does malevolence. Well, the Christians then will escape, so to speak, into something like a symbolic interpretation and say, "Well, it's true in eternity. " And and I think fair enough like like I do believe I do believe that the idea that Christ defeated death and hell is true but I don't know what that means.
Yeah. And so and that does that bother me? Well, I'd rather know and I'm continuing to investigate it.
But I like I do know for example you know Ian Hersy Ali who recently became a Christian. She just had a conversation with Richard Dawkins. It hasn't hasn't gone out yet.
I was there. I had the I had the privilege of being so I've already heard it. You know I I know what they they spoke about.
But one of the things that that does is and I've described it as as sort of almost comical the way that talks about her struggle with depression, suicidality, total hopelessness and then finds that by praying she's able to sort of elevate her life and then cuts to Richard Dawkins sort of but do you believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth but you know it was funny. It was I I I great level of analysis problem. At the same time, I sort of understood it because but and Dawkins says, you know, but but surely when you go to church, you're having these these these feelings and you must recognize that the things he's saying at the pulpit are nonsense.
And said that she is that she chooses to believe it. She says she says that I no longer find it to be nonsense because she what she implied and I don't want to put words in the mouth and I can't remember but it was something like look I I've been so captured by this this this meaning that although I don't really understand what it means to say that you know Jesus was born of a virgin. I just choose to believe it.
Well now now that's fine. But what she does what I was going to say is what she does is is says that this to me is like a mystery. I I don't really know exactly what it means, but I but I choose to believe that it's true.
And I wonder if if if that's something like what you're doing here when you say that you you believe I can I can just tell you what my experiences mean with in this sort of thing. So I've spent a lot of time digging into the substructure of mythological accounts right in many different cultures. Yeah.
Now and my experience continually is the deeper I look the more that's there. And so and then I see things come together that make sense that I thought were disperate and that there doesn't seem to be any limit to that. And so now when I see things that are disperate or even contradictory, I think well as you already pointed out given the nature of the biblical library there's room for some contradiction.
But more than that I think well that might be illogical or irrational or I might just not understand it. And my experience has been that that presumption turns out to be the case far more often than not. And so, you know, you can imagine that you can get the apprehension of a pattern and you can think the pattern is the pattern is compelling and then there are details within the pattern that you don't know how to reconcile.
But this is what Ayan is doing in accordance with your account. It's like, well, I'm willing to I'm not willing to forego my view of the pattern because of some lack of concordance with details, especially given that I'm ignorant. Yeah.
No, like well, I can I can only tell you what has been the pattern of my investigations. It's like the more deeply I This is knocking and asking the more deep the more I seek the more is present.
