How He Built A $500k/Month YouTube Business (and then shut it down) | Ed Lawrence

I used to wake up 5:00 a.m. and I would work on a video like 10 at night and I would work seven days a week and I did that for two weeks and I'd finish the video, post it, and I'd be like, "Boom, next one." >> So, you started the business. What were you doing? >> The first thing I'd do is not try and grow a YouTube channel. And the way YouTube works is >> Oh my god, that's crazy. >> You built a YouTube channel to $500,000 in monthly revenue without chasing millions of views and

then shut it down and walked away. >> My monthly views on film booth about a million. It's about 10 times less views or four and a half times the money and significantly less work. >> Today's guest is Ed Lawrence, one of the most respected YouTube educators on the planet. >> If I get a quarter of a million views on my other channel, 30% are in India, 30% are 18, you're targeting an audience who's massive with no money. >> In this episode, we unpack why most creators obsess over views and why Ed believes that's the fastest

way to burn out. >> The the problem was it was a huge amount of work, but yeah, it wasn't sustainable and I was like, I hate doing this. how he rebuilt his channel to attract the Right audience rather than just chasing numbers. >> I want to make a really good product. It's so good people are like, I can't live without this thing. And then I want to teach people how to do the same thing. >> How Ed is replacing traditional courses with AI powered education software that actually drives results. >> You set a course to

get someone a specific result and all they have to Really do is follow steps, but no one's teaching anyone how to educate, how to structure course content. Everyone's teaching them, oh, this is how you build a funnel to drive more people to your crab. >> And why building a better product and not a better funnel is the real growth lever in 2026. >> If you put a turbo on a big engine, you go very fast. You put a turbo on a small engine, still slow. So, the beginners Are basically thinking that they've got all the

power of a pro cuz it sounds so much better. But most of the time, it's just slow. >> So, if you want to use YouTube to build a real business without becoming a slave to the algorithm, this is the episode for you. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. We're fortunate enough today to be joined by Ed, the goat of YouTube. Um, and we also have a Co-host. So, Baron, >> hello. >> Ed, obviously the goat of YouTube. I wanted to have you on. And I also wanted to have someone on that

knows a lot more about YouTube than me. Um, so yeah, Baron, what's your your background, right? You've been on YouTube for 10 years. >> Yeah, like 14 years ago, I started it. I got a Home Depot flood light. I was living in Chicago and like the first IPhone and started putting up videos. >> Wow. >> Yeah. But then >> product reviews. >> No, no, it was actually just things I was seeing in my buddies like we would be at the bar and I'd see these common kind of social mistakes they were making. >> Okay. >>

And I and YouTube was just taking off even though everyone said it was Saturated 14 years ago. Yeah. Oh, you lost your chance. You're too slow, too late. >> And um I started doing it and I just really liked it. It's a good example of something where if you were looking for like some sort of result like money or views, I was not getting like 10 views. Kept doing it, kept doing it. And then uh eventually it got to the point where I had enough traffic. I was like, you know, I know this traffic is

worth Something. I should be making some sort of money more than the AdSense. So I made this, I don't know, it was 19 bucks or 49 bucks, some digital product about that. And pretty quickly I got a sale and I was like, "Oh, there's something to this." And so it kind of cascaded from there. Nice. I think I uploaded my first video 14 years ago. It's not there anymore. Yeah. >> You took it down. >> Yeah. I was like, "This is weird. Let's Put a video up and see what happens." And I prank called a

shop and filmed it and uh uploaded it and I was like I didn't tell anyone about this. And then the next day I went up and I was like, "Oh my god, there's loads of comments on it." And I deleted it cuz I was like, "This is terrifying." >> You got scared. >> Yeah. What the hell? People are watching that. I didn't expect it. Yeah. And then >> was that before you can do a thumbnail Or just like a random screen? This was like early YouTube. There was no Yeah, there was very very little at

all. It was It was weird that just going on the on the internet was kind of a bit of a novelty. So, but then I didn't post anything. >> You got scared. So much success and that was a good idea. Like that still does a well. >> I mean, I started like pre PewDiePie. >> It's probably still in the the system Somewhere floating around, but I don't know what the channel is or the login. Uh but then I took it more seriously 2020. >> Okay. And going back to your beginning then, so preyou. >> Yeah.

>> I know you had a video business >> and then before that you were just doing like landscaping, right? >> It was a lawn care company. Slightly different. Just putting fertilizer People's grass. >> And then yeah, I sold that and then just put on a suit and went networking and was like, I make videos for businesses. I've never made a video for a business or anything before. No, I just did it for a hobby. >> So I thought I'll just buy all the kit. Had money cuz I'd sold the company. I went everywhere with a

suit. >> Were you interested in this space or what made you switch to that? Cuz that's Quite >> No, I became interested in YouTube because I basically went and got business. I was like, "Oh god, how do I use a camera?" I was going on YouTube to learn how to use proper cameras. Oh, basically before I was using like GoPros and stuff. So, I knew how to edit, which was saved me. I didn't know how to use a camera. First job I ever filmed, the guy was like, "What's the f-stop on your lens?" I didn't

even know what it meant. >> And I was like, "Uh, >> bit. Just let me get this shot, mate, and then I'll uh I can't remember right now. And I was like, the hell's an F-stop, >> dude. Can you imagine him showing up with like a suit and they're like, "Yeah, I'll give you the deal." And he pulls out like he's got the GoPro in his pocket. He's like, "We're doing it now. Let's go." >> I went everywhere in a suit. >> Yeah. >> And uh then I used to sell SEO and AdWords off the

back of it. >> Oh, you've done it all. >> Which I didn't know how. Again, I just learned on YouTube. So, when I was basically learning all this stuff, I was like, "This is amazing. These people are so cool. They're like teaching stuff. You can learn anything." And then I started getting into like putting videos on YouTube for rank and search and then >> for other people or you at this point? >> No, from my company. Because basically what would happen was I would go to these meetings to sell a video in a suit and

they wouldn't really want a video but they'd turn around and go how did you get on Google and I was like oh I do that for people as well and they do it for me. I was like yeah. So I used to my foot in the door was a video and they never buy it but I just sell them SEO and Adwords. So I started building it on Crying quite quick. I was like, "Oh, this is quite easy." >> Wow. >> Um, but then I just went more heavily into the production side. I teamed up

with someone and then that was a pain in the ass. It was it left the business model that worked, which I'd done in my first company, which worked for rich people and charge them a lot. And it went for mass market cheap, which doesn't really work. It was a nightmare. And then I just at one point the channel I was decided I needed to create a personal brand and put 18 months into it and eventually went I'm just going to leave the company and go all in on this. I left it to my business partner

and that's when I went that was October 2021 all in on YouTube >> not that long ago. And you you really kind of like the creative part of it too, don't you? The artistic design stuff. I think I've heard you say that. >> I don't like cameras. Like I don't like filming. I hate that. It's a pain. But I like the writing bit, the coming up the idea. Uh, and I like the art of marketing without people feeling like they're being marketed to. >> Um, because it's like a nice ad. You know what I mean?

Right. >> Yeah. Yeah, I do. So, some value. >> It's like the I like the business side, the creative side. >> Yeah. You got a cool set now with the practical lights and >> living room. >> Yeah, it looks great. >> I'm filming my kitchen sink's just the left. I can I like pull drinks out of it whilst I'm filming. If you saw it, there's like rubbish all around me. It's over. >> Yeah, sets are usually unimpressive when you see them. You know that guy? You heard the guy Legal Eagle? >> Yeah, >> they did

that one guy does uh Gerald Undone or something does tours and like you see his looks like a law office and you see this look like this back in his backyard. You ever heard of those guys? >> I hate building sets and doing that. So, I just whacked up a camera and went this looks all right. That was it. >> Yeah, that's good. What happened next? So, you started the business. What were you doing for people? >> The YouTube business. >> Yeah. Um, so originally I was just putting videos online and then selling an hour

so you could just book in a call and I didn't really have anything else. Um, and I was booked out for three months. That was really good because I just learned so much about the problems people actually had and eventually I was like everyone has the same problem. So I started making on demand products to solve that problem. And then I just Stopped doing the onetoone and then built a what was it like a $3,000 cohort and then that sold out straight away. I just kept doing that every quarter. And then then I made it

bigger. Start just made it open all the time. Kept building it and developing it. And >> you had a sales team at that point or were you taking over? >> Yeah, I've had a sales team in the last two years. >> Uhhuh. >> But at that point, no, I just used to people had to apply. It was only 20 to 20 spaces start at the end there was like 40 spaces once I'd done it for like two years. >> Uhhuh. >> And I just say apply get like 500 applications. Uh, and then I'd just pick

the people who I wanted to work with and say, >> just like a Google form, right? You would literally just go >> I'd have to go through these emails that came in and then 50% of them I just couldn't help. They just that's completely wrong. >> Mhm. >> And then I' the people I like the look of. I'd email back and say, "Here's your thing. 24 hours pays I'll give to someone else." >> And yeah, it was good because I'd created quite a big following. I hadn't realized the power of urgency then. It Was just

I took on 20 people because I didn't think I could handle more. Is this back when you're doing the old channel or the new one? >> This is my old channel, Film Boot. >> Okay. Yeah, got it. >> The the new one I pivoted. I went away from sort of mass YouTube, more just a business growth on YouTube. And then that's when the business took off. >> Dude, that had been a tough decision cuz you had, you know, quite a few Followers. >> No, I hated >> Yeah, it wasn't tough at all. >> Did you?

Yeah, really. >> No, it was hard. The the problem was I had created a a channel that was all about high production, pushing it. These videos take me two weeks, like working on fulltime to find an editor to do the level I needed. There just wasn't many in the world. >> Wow. >> Um, so it was a huge amount of work and there was so much at stake on these videos. I'd be shaking before I posted because I was the views guy. So I was like, I have to get views as an advert, right? So

I have that and then people used to buy. They'd be like, oh, every video you get a quart of a million views. How are you doing it? It was really impressive. So, I was trying to maintain this like really unsustainable Bench bench part. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No one's ever got the same views like per video on a channel in my niche doing the the sort of stuff I was doing and I still don't think they have. >> Mhm. >> Um but yeah, it just wasn't sustainable and I was like, I hate doing this. I

also got into it because I like marketing and this was like talking about YouTubers who I didn't watch, but I'd have to go and watch them and be like, right, and then I'd have to be like, oh, this is really exciting stuff. And I was like, no. And people can feel the lack of authenticity. >> No, they didn't. >> Oh, they didn't. >> No, I just I was like I realized I was like, I'd watch them and I'd be like, "Oh, these guys are good." But I would not be watching YouTube. I'd never watched any

entertainment YouTube. I Still haven't. >> Like the stuff I've watched is random memes. So, I was like, I like talking about marketing and I'm just talking about stuff that I don't really care about. Um, and it's also Yeah, it just sort of it was just too much work for the money. The money was good, but I was like, I met so many people earning so much, getting so less views. >> Yeah. >> I just thought, "This is dumb. I'm doing This wrong way around. I need to spend more time in the business than making content,

so I just left it." Um, and then started a new one, and it was the right decision. >> You weren't doing some videos for the old one and some for the new. You just were kind of cold turkey. >> No, I did. So, what I was originally going to do was I was like I realized I needed a business channel, teachable marketing on YouTube, and I was going to Have the YouTube growth. And I was like, I'll run them simultaneously. I'll outsource everything. >> Uhhuh. >> On the new channel. So, I didn't I was like,

I don't want to write any scripts. I don't want to do a thing. I'll just shoot the thing. Um, and just see what happens. Can I scale a channel without really being much involved? >> Yeah, it's interesting. >> And then I was getting the scripts back And I was like, uh, and then I thought, screw it. I'll start writing them. And I was like, I'd much prefer this. So, I just I realized as well the lead quality coming in from the other channel was far superior >> from the new one. >> Yeah. And I was

like, "Oh, this is gonna make me so much more and it's easier and it's more sustainable long term." >> Yeah. >> So, I just thought, "Ah, screw it. I'll Start again." >> Higher conversion rates or people with more money to spend >> both. >> Yeah. >> The YouTube the say if I get a quarter of a million views on my other channel, 30% are in India, 30% are 18. Right. So, when you look at YouTube, >> people are like, "Look how many views that person's get." And I often look at their channel and I know

who that you're Targeting an audience who's massive with no money. >> But people are like, "That's making loads." cuz I'm like, they're not because they're making content for the wrong audience. So, if we look at the two channels side by side, the current one might get like 10,000 views a video. The other one might get, say, a quarter of a million. >> Mhm. >> But I'm probably not that far off in Terms of the right audience size on the smaller channel versus the other one. Right. So, most people were wrong on the other one. >>

Mhm. >> Still a lot wrong on my new one, but it's not that different in terms of the people I want. >> Yeah. >> Why is that? So, is that because you're lasering the messaging? Is >> that is because I'm talking about things That the right people care about. Like they don't care about Mr. Beast. Most of my clients are 40 plus have, you know, they only care about Mr. Beast because their their kids are watching it. So, Film Booth was talking about Mr. Beast because it's easy to get views. >> This is like email

marketing via an YouTube funnel. It's really different, right? >> Yeah. So, that messaging is tailoring to a different audience with different Problems. >> Yeah. It's kind of similar. They still want to grow, but they want to generate views and sales from YouTube. >> Okay. >> Whereas, if I want tons of views, I'll just drop the bit about business. You see it on my channel. If I don't put business in the title, it gets less views. >> Mhm. >> So, that was it really. At the end of The day, it's marketing. It's basic. You just put

your messaging where the like people are, right? And I before I was putting it to a very broad audience full of kids and people all over the world. Now, I put it in front of middle-aged people in America just from different titles and topics. >> I think that's really hard for people to do even if they understand the validity of the idea that some audiences are worth a lot more. Because there is ego To it. Even if you have a lot of ego when you have a YouTube channel, everyone else knows it. And so your

friends are like, "Oh, you're spending all this time on this channel and you're getting 500 views." Yeah, well, I'm making, you know, 100 grand a month, but you're not going to say that. You know, people are like, "I want to get the views." And, you know, it wouldn't be that bad. I'll just do some entertainment stuff to to bring in the Views and then I'll get some people are interested on the back. That's not the way it works because the algorithm then finds those people that are just there for entertainment. So, I think that's why

people are hesitant to do that to really focus on a niche and not worry about views. >> Well, I'm lucky because that's my message because I have software that tracks sales. I say, "Look, this video got hardly any views and look how much It made me." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Do people see the the benefit of it? >> Yeah. Why couldn't you just take the old channel and start putting that content out on it? >> Uh, I could have done. Why did you not do that? >> Because I wanted the option to go back one

day if I wanted to. >> Okay. >> I also just didn't want to cover the Stuff I'd put years of work into. And I thought, uh, I'm just going to leave it there, like a little shrine. And I also thought it would be weird for the guy going, "Oh, you don't need subscribers." And then having I would have had half a million now on that channel if I kept doing it. It's just, "Oh, this guy's telling me he doesn't need subscribers, but he's got half a million." I was like, it's better if I just go

back and then prove to people >> that's a good point >> that look I'll start again and I'm going to make more with less views and that's exactly what happened. So I feel like the story of building that channel and starting again was a better story. >> Can we break down those numbers? So I think from the start when you had these kind of evergreen products, what were you doing like per month and what was the rough view count? Then the cohort and then kind of how that exploded Afterwards. >> So the first it went

from a million 2 million to 4.5 million. This is annual revenue, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, doubled over doubled three years in a row. It was a million when I was doing the broad one, 2 million when I niched down, and then this year was 4.5. >> But I got better at business as well. It's not quite the fairest comparison, Right? >> Yeah. >> Um, >> but yeah, my my views this year on my channel maybe like 1.2 million. >> My monthly views on film booth about a million. Wow. Mhm. >> About 10

times less views for >> four and a half times the money. >> Wow. >> And significantly less work. Like I can't tell you how much less work. I Mean, it was literally two I used to wake up at 5:00 a.m. and I would work on a video like 10 at night and I would work seven days a week and I did that for two weeks and I finished the video, post it, and I'd be like, "Boom, next one." And I did. It was crazy. >> That's That takes all the fun out of it. >> Yeah.

But that's But I'm glad I did it. I still wouldn't change that because it got me to the position I needed to be in. Did you have to go through that to Learn? >> Yeah. Yeah. Because I It took me so long because I didn't know what I was doing. So, you know, I I I had a quarter of a million subscribers when I finally got taught how to light by one of my team. I didn't know what any of the buttons on the camera did. I'd pick it up and be like, "That looks all

right. Bosch, go." >> But it's more about the message and then other stuff. And I was good at editing. I used to be able to >> edit. I'd film a load of crap and then my edit would save it. >> So, yeah, I I would still do it again. Um, I wouldn't change anything because it taught me a lot. And I feel like I went through so much pain. Nothing's been as hard since. So, it felt downhill from that moment. >> Yeah. Yeah, I get it. What were you selling back then? What products were you

selling? Was it group coaching or is It like all info products? >> Started with onetoone calls. Then I was like, because I'd left my company October 21, I left my company. I thought I' got back to zero now. Like there was a bit of ad revenue. So, and I was I had a bit of call money coming in. thought I'll launch a very I'll just knock something up really quick. >> Was that the thumbnail? >> Yeah, it was like a thumbnail workshop. So, it was a live event. Thought I'll Just push it out to my

email list who I'd like never emailed. I didn't realize this. I went back I went back the other day to look at when I started email marketing. And I thought I had a much bigger email list that I'd been emailing for ages and then I started advertising. I didn't. I had an email list I'd never emailed. I'd just been building. And when I built this thumbnail thing, I thought, how do I sell this? Because doesn't you put it in a YouTube video, It doesn't really work. So I thought, I'll just send the email to the

list. I remember being like, I'm gonna get so much hate just emailing this list. And I said, I hit it and $7,000 appeared. I thought, no one complained. I was like, oh my gosh, this is insane. >> Um, and then I just sold that on demand. >> And then >> so you recorded that, started selling her on demand. Yeah. >> How much it was like $50 or something? $35. And then as soon as I saw the money coming in, I thought, "Oh, I need to do something else." So, I built something slightly bigger. So, I

built like another workshop that was recorded that was I was so ill when I shot it. If you look back here, I'm like, I think every course I've ever shot, I was so ill cuz I burned myself out building them. But I sold that for $145. >> The live thing or the afterwards? >> The next one >> in the January, a few months later, still hadn't emailed any value to this list. Just hit send. >> Okay. I was like, boom, $25,000. I was like, "What is going on? This is crazy." Oh, no. I think it

was $14,000 here. $20,000. So, I had now these two little products and my calls selling. My calls were blocked out for three months. >> Why were you still doing the calls at this point? Or why not increasing the Cost? >> I used to do I used to do Thursday like and I would do eight hours back to back. The first eight 8 hour day I did back to back. I didn't book in lunch or any breaks in between. So, I basically needed the toilet for like eight hours. my girlfriend at the time like bringing me

drinks. I'm trying to eat a sandwich whilst they're not looking at me on the call. I'm like, "Oh, I just dropped something." And then I did that and then I just kept putting the price up and eventually got to the point where I'd do like three hours and I was charging like $1,000 a call or something. >> But then that was kind of my bread and butter. So I didn't want to get rid of it. But then when I'd seen the success of all this other stuff, I thought now you need to build something bigger.

So I thought build something that's going to cost three grand. And that was like a 10e program. >> Uhhuh. >> So I spent quite a long time. It's like six months working on that. >> What a great feeling though because when you quit your job spraying the fertilizer, you were probably taking a big big swing. You know what it didn't work? >> Every time I quit, people like, "You're mad." >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Leaving that great job In the fertilizer. >> Yeah. They were like I was like, "Yeah, I know, but I don't like it."

And my my parents always said to me, "Just do the thing that makes you happy." >> I just stuck to that. So that's why I shut my business the other day cuz I was like, "Uh, not making me happy anymore." >> Yeah. I was like, "You're making so much money." I was like, "Well, I'm going to do something else now." >> So, yeah. I mean you you've tried a lot Of different things especially in this last year and that is I I mean even for me the the biggest decision is how do you monetize there's

so many people who are all about like no you got to do live events and then you know you sell the upsell beforehand and the group before no you have to have info products info products aren't working anything with LLMs all these different things group coaching is the way high ticket's the way no no then you're excluding the low People like what are some of the learn what are some of the things you've tried in the last two years if you don't mind going through it and what are some of the maybe counterintuitive learnings that

you've had >> done low ticket that's a membership ship. >> Hold on. Mid ticket, high ticket, and then like 10k high ticket. >> That's a group coaching. >> Uh yeah. So I did a 3K one which went up To 5K and then this one ended up at 10K. >> Wow. Yeah. >> I've done literally everything and I've launched every sort of offer with all my clients. Oh, and I have a software company as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um >> the one that tracks the monetization for the >> I'm kind of building something new

now. It's not good because you shouldn't Really like zigzag everywhere. But my original idea was when I started to build a following, I I knew when my first video blew up, I I remember sitting on the bed being like, I've won the lottery. I know this is going to make me so much money. And no one understood. Like I tell my friends, I was like, this is amazing. They're like, why? I was like, because I knew marketing from before cuz I'd done all my stuff when I was wearing my suit. I Was like, this is

going to be easy. I have I finally have traffic. I just need an offer now. So, I just thought just try stuff and do baby steps. Start simple. see if there's demand. Just if it sells, do something bigger. And then if you find the thing you really like, just keep doing that because everything will work. You just need to pick the one thing you like. So a lot of people go, "Oh, I want to do high ticket." Because they see the amount of money it makes. But no one lasts that long doing high ticket. Like

I've done it for four years, which is quite long. >> High ticket meaning personal interaction, personal coach, >> group. I've done two two live calls a week. Discord support >> with groups or with individuals? >> Groups. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So there's a lot like at the moment There's like 300 people in my group. So it's it's there's a lot going on. So but people like that idea because you charge 10K, right? So it's like make 10 sales you make 100 grand. >> Yeah. >> So people go that way because the money's good, but not

that many people stay because when the money's high, the stakes are higher. Also, if you attract the wrong people, which most people do, I reject 50 to 60% of the applications. You get people who give you their money, but they're not ready for what you've built, and they become a nightmare. And this is where all the stress and the headaches, and you can't actually help them. And you, and this is how a lot of high ticket offers scale. They don't really care. They're more playing a game of let's just assume 20% of people will ask

for a refund. Close as many people as we can and just take the cash. I couldn't do. So, the high ticket thing Is good for money. But it's got to a point where I looked at it and thought, same with everything I did, this isn't quite the thing. And then the high ticket thing, which I've been doing for the last two years, which I've spent ages building, like I've rebuilt it so many times to make it better and better and better. I just thought to get to 9 million or 10 million a year, I just

have to do stuff I don't like doing. You can delegate, but it means ads. It means Monitoring that. It means more sales team. It means more team all the things I hate doing. It means I have to do. I was like, well, I can stay where I am and maintain a lot of money, but then you're not there's no creative development or personal development. It's just staying still. And I was like, that doesn't excite me. Growing it doesn't excite me. What does? So, I thought I've basically been working on this thing trying to make it

so that the Content is so good and the AI I've built is so good, they don't need the human support anymore because these high ticket programs, people buy it and then they they don't use it. 300 people in my program moment, 10 turn up to a live call. >> That paid 10 smokes for it. >> Yeah. And on the sales call, I want onetoone with Ed. What can I get? And I'm like, just come on the call. It's onetoone. like We've got and and and you know then they don't come up and use the support

and I just thought this is kind of dumb because >> what they want is instant support that they can fit around their life. >> Uhhuh. >> When they want it. >> So I built these AI bots. >> Uhhuh. >> And we just saw the support going dropping down basically. But then people Were using it, right? And I was like, it's not as good as the human, but they're actually moving quicker. So, they're taking action to grow their channel and business, which is I think is actually better than stopping and slowing down and trying to get

a human involved because it's not 24/7 instant support. Like, we were very quick in our chat support room. Like, I' I'd be on it all the time, right? But I think people just want momentum and they want to keep Moving and they're actually better off just taking actions and making mistakes than they are slowing down trying to get everything perfect. So I looked at the data like support is tanking the but AI is getting better less people are turning up to the calls and we're still getting results if not better. >> I was like the

future feels like to me if I can build the and as every time I made the course better we got less support cuz people didn't need to ask so Many questions. So, I've just been rebuilding, rebuilding, rebuilding, and now I'm building this software platform that basically walks them through every step of the video process and gives them feedback. And I use it for myself. That's how I know it's good. >> The software platform, meaning it's like still video training and then there's an LLM they can use. >> There's loads of chat bots. So, let's say

for example, I've built a my my the Thing I sell people is a system. So it's like how to come up with the idea, how to position the channel, be unique, and then when you make a video, there's a certain process you go through. So the software is steps. It's like we push a button, start a project. >> Oh, so there's different chat bots for different sections of the video. How do you >> So like start your project, title, thumbnail. >> They design them, they throw them into my bot. It gives them the feedback on

the thumbnail and title. Yeah. Now, this is something I use all the time. It's very good. >> And then they go, right, let's let's plan the video. There's one page of the planner where they just follow a few processes. They type into it. Then they press write next. It takes them to a slightly deeper version of the planner that's got AI bots that help them Ideulate >> and then they go, "Right, let's write it." Takes them to another page of the planner, carries the plan over >> and now they can write, but they can copy

and paste bits of the script into another AI bot, which gives them feedback on that section. And then I'm building it so it connects to their channel. So when they post the video, it's going to take the data and it's going to tell them why the video flopped Or why it performed and it's going to say do this in your next video. So I'm basically trying to work out how my brain works at every step of the funnel, building content and then a system that is step by step and then little bots that do very

specific tasks that think like me to give them feedback. >> Mhm. >> It's smart to break apart the processes because you can't do it all at once. You need a small chunk it. >> The hardest thing that I have though is getting it to actually write the script. So, it sounds like something you'd say. >> You don't want to get write a script. AI is not AI is it's everyone thinks that AI is like good at writing scripts, but it sucks. It It's It's brought the baseline up, but beginners from awful to below average, right?

So, the beginners who don't know any better going, "This is amazing. Look at the script." And I read it. Oh, this is Awful. You ain't getting anywhere with this. Uses these random words >> and it doesn't make it sound like you can. Everyone's like, I've made mine sound like me. I've built this huge thing. And I'm like, I can spot the 15 different AI words. >> Even if you paste 15 scripts that you wrote that are perfect, it still doesn't do it right. >> But that we don't want to use it for that. So AI

is amazing at taking all the Crap in your head, all the thousand ideas you're trying to articulate at once and then simplifying it into a bullet point list. >> Okay, >> so let's say I want to do a video called How to Get to a Million a Year on YouTube. First thing I do is write down like what do I think I want to talk about and there's like I'll just quickly four bullet points. That's step one of the Planning phase. I've got to get some of this information out of my head because otherwise, you

know, when you got a thousand files on your desktop on your computer, it's like crazy overwhelming. You have people have those messy desktops. That's that's like your brain trying to come up with an idea for a video. It's too much swirling around. You basic files. Yeah, you got too many tabs open. >> So, I have my four Four or five ideas down and then what I do is I hit dictate on my keyboard and I just talk out my idea. So I'll start flowing and I'll be presenting out loud going all sorts of tangents and

I'll just talk what I think I want to talk about. That then naturally sparks more ideas. So four things I might want to talk about could become eight and then I've got this like absolute pile of words that is awful. I throw that into AI and say, "Can you organize this?" >> I want it organized in a way that is optimal for cognitive load that won't overwhelm people and I want you to just bullet point every step I've spoken about so it's easy to read. >> That spits that out. Now we've moved one step down

the planning process again. And then what I do with that is I start to structure it into a specific structure for education which keeps people hooked and doesn't overwhelm. I'm doing more notes. Then what I do is I voice record myself presenting the script from that more detailed notes. >> That's the first draft script that I used to type. I give that to AI tell it to tidy it up and now we have the final sort of thing which I then edit very heavily myself. So it sounds like a lot of work. Before you doing

all of this in your head now it's just a case of basically talking getting AI to organize talking getting AI to organize And then you write it. But if you get an AI script, I'm editing it 80 90%. That's my work. >> It's almost it's almost useless. >> And I have so many clients, they're like, "Oh, yeah, the AI is great." I'm like, "No, stop using it for that, please. It's so lazy." >> Yeah. It's interesting you say that because the process that I've kind of come up with a hack through myself, it's kind of

similar. Like I find, but the The beautiful thing is you can just talk. So say you have a script and you talk and you're reading it the way it is. Oh, no, no, I don't like the way this sounds this go. You can just speak very naturally and it just fixes it like that. Another thing I use is like I'll have a list of 15 things. It's like just to try to come up with other ideas like are there any published studies that relate even tangentially to this. Are there interesting psychological biases That could relate

to this? And then it can come up with ideas and just research like say you have a boring idea like how much tip the valet in big cities but then you run it through hey did you know that in Monaco there's this weird thing that goes you'd never know that but it'd be interesting to throw in. That's one of the things that I find that it's good at and save me time bring up things I'd never know. >> Yeah, it's great at research, great at Sparking ideas, but is it's a turbo. So, if you put

a turbo on a big engine, you go very fast. So, I know what I'm doing. I can spot all the mistakes AI makes. It speeds me up everything. You put a turbo on a small engine, it's still slow. So, the beginners are basically thinking that they've got all the power of a a pro because it sounds so much better, but most of the time it's just slop. >> Yeah, it's slop. So the tool you're building is planning ideation and kind Of tidying up and taking >> I'm basically trying to replace myself with a bit of

software and I'm trying to work out how I think and then I'm trying to turn that into a system which is a course which is very step by step basically like putting Lego bricks together. >> Yeah. >> And then I'm trying to train AI to think like me at very specific tasks within that process. So the thing the person Gets is like the course and then the the kind of >> it's an AI with a course rather than a course with an AI. >> Do you think that's where the kind of info industry >> can't

not? I wanted to build this a year ago but I couldn't code. >> Now I can because of AI, right? >> So can we talk about that? >> So how have you built this? >> Lovable. Now the professionals will be Like it's going to be slop it. It doesn't work. Which is the same thing, right? I'm a small engine and I've just strapped a turbo on it because I don't know anything about coding. However, I do know about simplification and user experience and stuff like that, which means I can produce a bit of it, right?

But yeah, some of my clients are coders and they're like, "This is the problem you're going to have, so we'll fix it." But in terms of scaling, it's not ready To scale, which is fine. It doesn't need to scale. I'm just getting all my current clients to test it. But yeah, you can build it with AI and it's fun. And I just I just sit there drawing out all sorts of things and then I get my clients to use it and like tell me what you think. >> Build this, change that. This isn't very useful.

And then I'm trying to use it for myself. I figure if I can, >> that's the litmus test. >> If I can make something so good, I stop automatically going to just Google Docs and I'm like, if this thing goes down, I feel agitated. That's when I know that I've made something good. And there are certain features where it is and there's certain features where it's not. So, the plan is to create just a step-by-step bit of system software. I don't know what to call it that has feedback built in. >> What What LLM are

you using right now? >> I use multiple ones depending on the task. >> Uhhuh. >> So, certain things I use Gemini, certain things I use Claude, certain things I use uh GBT. >> Using Cloud for most of the copywriting. >> No, I don't think this is good. Everyone thinks this is good. >> Gemini, you use Gemini? >> No, I use OpenAI for the copy. >> Oh my god, that's crazy. That's the one That I don't even ping off. >> I found that open claude is the most AI sounding AI out of all of them. >>

I I managed to get my the stuff I do with my open AI one to sound as closest to me and human as possible. Sometimes the the one I've been working on I don't have to edit that much now, but it it swings around in like some days. >> It's from day to day. I know what you mean. And it's almost like they get momentum and they'll be hot for like an Hour and then they just burn out and they're terrible. >> Yeah. So, I don't know if it's the changing stuff, but I noticed the

other day I was chatting to it and I was like, "You've been drinking or something. What are these answers? You remind me of GPT 4.0." You >> started talking trash to it. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is what I expect from you. >> I I when I've done that sometime I've even asked like what is going on? You're Very clear and a lot of times I like I have all these hotkey things like with all these you can just hit control this and it puts in this thing and usually it'll be like well you've given me

so many instructions there's just this conflicting thing so now I have a prompt that says completely reset the tone start from scratch and that usually helps but I still have a little bit of weird variation. >> Yeah and you just have to be on the Lookout for that. That's the thing that it's if you're lazy AI is awful because you have to check everything. >> Mhm. Right. >> And you have to question you have to use your brain. It's a very different It's a very different sort of way of doing business and life because I

have like two laptops open at the same time like two different bots and I'm chatting to them. They're giving each other feedback. I'm then reading that. I spend Most of my day talking to robots. But going back to your question, yeah, in terms of like selling information does anyone who's building a course right now is just and they're not thinking about this is just light years behind because if you at the end of the day you sell a course to get someone a specific result and all they have to really do is follow steps. So

if you create a software that they literally follow the steps because usually courses they're like a Google Doc here and then something else here. I just want a platform where everything's in one. >> Yeah. and then you can build in the AI to give them help which is only going to get better. So that's the one of the reasons why I thought shut down the thing that's making all the money cuz I thought this isn't the future and actually it's capped >> at the very best it could do 10 million a year. It's never going

to do 20 or 30 It could >> but what's the future and it I felt like I was living in the past. I was like, I've got very good I've built something amazing that in five years time I think it's gonna be totally irrelevant. So why not just start working on the thing now? >> You did shut it down quite early. You see probably still in a few more years you can make a little dough. But you said you weren't enjoying it. So >> well that's the point cuz I know that if I focus on

one thing, it gets incredibly good, incredibly fast and I just could not get the time to focus on rebuilding the course, building the platform that it goes with. I also want to write a book, a book I call 10x move. It's like, what's the thing that's going to 10x your business? >> I was like, well, if you look traditionally at where I am in terms of like influencer level, right? >> Um, the people above me all have one thing in common. They wrote a book and that book was the thing that projected them to the

next level. >> So, I was like, well, I've been writing I've written three million words, got a ton of stories, a ton of case studies, I got all the stuff I feel like I need to write a decent book. >> Nice. >> So, I'll do something slightly more mass markety and then drive them to the YouTube thing. and then just keep working on the content and the platform because it's fun. That's it really. >> Well, it's going to be it's amazing how quickly these things are getting better too because eventually you're not going to need

to small chunk everything eventually. And when I say eventually, who knows? Everyone's got their crazy ideas about how fast things are changing, but like it's probably not Going to be long before it's one step. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean a year ago I was maybe like 15 months ago I was putting I put one AI bot in my Discord to help people do intro feedback. So they'd have a little chat room in it and they talk to it and now there's a whole giant platform they're using with multiple bots and projects in and >>

one year >> thumbnail feed. Yeah. A year. So I you I literally could not have if someone if I If I go back in time and told myself you're going to build this in a year. >> Yeah. >> I think I would have dropped dead. I'd have been I'd have looked at it and gone what that because I paid someone to build what I have I gave someone $10,000 to build the basic version and then I rebuilt it in a weekend better. >> Wow. >> So that's that that's the way I'm looking at it. It's

like I want to make A really good product. I don't want to just get people signing up to give me their money which I think is the biggest problem with a lot of the space. I want to make something really good that's so good people like I can't live without this thing. And then I want to basically teach people how to do the same thing. I was like, if I can master this new type of education platform. >> I see what you're saying. >> And then I've got the skills for selling It. I now have

a completely unique take on I now can teach you how to build software and content. Then to me that's quite an exciting business where in because the thing I hate about everything online is everyone's chasing how do I make more money? But I didn't do that. I chased how do I make my product better? If I get more results, I put those results into my content. I tell stories about my client wins. >> I don't ever say click my link to buy my Thing. And every video has a more a win or two and a

story. So, it's like every story I got, they paid me $10,000, but that one story, that one screenshot of them saying I just had this amazing launch, that's going to make me 100k. So, I just focus on the product. So, I kind of want to teach you, look, make the product good. >> Your marketing won't you won't be sitting there going, I need more clients. You'll have people knocking on The door going, "How do I get in?" But no one's teaching anyone how to educate, how to structure course content, how to try and like reduce

overwhelm, and then how to build systems and frameworks within their courses so that it becomes like unique IP that's actually useful. Everyone's teaching them, "Oh, this is how you build a funnel to drive more people to your crab." So I thought I need to do it for myself, but I think I can come up with something Unique in the space that changes a lot of lives is actually good. And I'd like to change the way people think from make as much money to have as much impact and then you'll just make more money as a

the back end. >> I think a lot of people actually are not confident that they can even deliver a product that could get a lot of reviews. So they're like, just let show me how to make the money fast. I'm not going to do this flywheel reviews because I can't Get enough people to really would vouch for me. I think there's a lot of that. Someone joke once, you only need to make the first video in a course good because no one watches past that anyway. So like just put the effort into the beginning and

then you don't need the rest. And then there is an element of truth. But again, I thought about that and I was like, are we just accepting that? What if I could try and fix that? >> I started to build in gamification into This platform. So for example, when you plan a video, the timer starts. It's like you've got 15 minutes to plan the first step. >> Oh yeah. So because people overthink, but once you have a bit of um if you want to get into flow state, the best way to do it is with

stakes. There's a little timer ticking down. It's like a great idea, right? Yeah. I'm trying to >> you can imply how much it should take cuz you know that cuz you have the data. You know, you should take 15 minutes. You're taking longer. It's probably not helpful. >> And that is one of the biggest things people get stuck. They overthink and it's not when you simplify making content down. It's not actually you shouldn't really get overwhelmed. It's very simple. write four things you want to talk about, four stories, and then write connect the dots, right?

It's it's it's not actually that hard, but when You pile all these different learning on at the same time, and then you've got all the information people have learned previously about YouTube, which isn't correct, getting in the way. So, I have to like teach people to forget what they've been told. >> Mhm. >> A lot of people say, "Oh, this person told me to do this." Like you said at the start, high ticket, oh no, no, low Ticket. Oh, group and I'm telling them one thing and then they say, "Well, someone else told me this."

Well, just pick one. It doesn't matter. Just pick one flipping thing and do it. >> So people, they learn online, >> they watch YouTube videos, they learn stuff in random orders, then they buy a course, you give them structure, and you've got to undo all the noise because they've usually learned things that are five steps ahead of what they should Have been watching anyway. And they only click on stuff that interests them. You give them all the stuff where they're like, I hate this. And it's like, well, that's the nature of the beast. You got

to do it. >> Yeah. So, that's really interesting. I I didn't put the whole picture together until just now, but what you're trying to do is kind of go from just being the YouTube guy. You're going to teach people the entire system, including chat Bots and all that kind of stuff. >> Well, see, I basically just I've said, do the thing that you like doing. And at the moment, I find it fascinating trying to build little apps and systems and bots to solve very specific problems. Mhm. >> And I'm seeing the result it has and

and how people like it and how much I use them and I just think this has got to be the future and it will make it even better. >> Since that dinner that we had, we were talking to that friend of yours who uh bought Hermosis. You saw the Hermosi webinar. >> Um I've talked to some other people. All they use is his chatbot. No one refers to his books, but they do use that chatbot a lot. So I mean that's he had obviously a huge launch, but I mean you're saying that, he's saying that,

everyone's saying that's all they use. I mean clearly that's the future. Yeah, you just need to create a habit and make something good where they just keep coming back. So, what if he's probably just plugged it into regular open AI cuz it's got half of his content in anyway, right? >> Oh, yeah. But >> Oh, I see what you're saying. >> Yeah. But the thing about Homozy is he he is the perfect person to build an AI because he's already got brain works, right? So, when I build bots, I don't Just throw tons of YouTube

scripts in it. They all have their own specific training based on simplified frameworks to help it understand easier. And that's how he teaches in simplified frameworks. Yes. >> So he everything he's got is like optimized for humans and therefore a bot. Most people don't have that. They they don't know how to teach. They don't have anything simple. They vastly over complicate it. They're like, "Oh, you Know, I went on YouTube and I threw all of your scripts into my AI and now it writes like you look." And I'm like, "It does not write like me.

How dare you? It doesn't work like that. But yeah, I think I think that's definitely the future. >> Yeah. Wow. That's interesting. So, if if you had to monetize though, you're working on something new, but of all the things you've done when you factor in how much time it took, how burnt out you Got, how much money you made per hour, all those different things. What would be your favorite if you had to do it? You got to make money. Or the one that you would never do, you just hated it too much. It didn't

make any money. >> I wouldn't do mass market views. That was the only thing that really burnt me out. I didn't like >> making the content, having to watch the Yeah. >> Being a YouTuber sucked. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And you don't meet many happy YouTubers. I hate to ruin the illusion, but they are >> they're just a bit screwed in their head. They are so obsessed with views. There's such high stakes. You can't control the algorithm, right? So, they get into god mode. They think, "Oh, I'm smashing millions of views." And they get 200,000

and they're like break down. >> Yeah. >> They're not mentally stable. But they hate it because usually you're going to have a video that blows up that's like something new that you did and it's not necessarily your core. But now you have to do that and it it continues to trend off and now they're making videos about so many guys have gone to crypto just because that blows up. They're not anything about crypto and they don't even like crypto but that's so now they have to do their whole life is that they Don't really like

it. >> Yeah, that was that was the only thing I wouldn't do again is just try and start a mass market channel purely for views. mass market in terms of Dan Matal and Hormosi is good because it's still structured within like a niche. >> So, but but but even then it was more just the effort I had to put in and I was like this just is hell on earth doing this. >> Mhm. >> Uh what would I do again? The thing I'm shutting down I'm sad to shut down. >> Okay. >> Cuz I I

I thought I do like this >> high ticket group coaching weekly calls. >> It's very um it's very rewarding. Lot like this week was great. Like I said, there's 300 people in the moment. 10 turn up for a call. So, I'm not rushing. I'm just chatting with them. Like, give me a script. Let's pull it apart. It's fun. So, I'll miss that. And I'll miss Seeing >> every morning the first thing I do is I go into my Discord into the celebrate room. >> And it's like, oh, I just made 100 grand yesterday. Thanks, Ed.

I made 20K the month before. Like, that gets me motivated. So, part of me thinks it's kind of selfish because this is going to vanish. But I look at it and I was like, it's not the sustainable thing I can do for the next 10 years. what is and I Also like the idea of being one of these people who tries to scale a business with literally one person. So the thing is what's the open AI geyser Sam Alman >> he's talked about the first billion dollar company >> one person >> with one person I

don't want to be that but I thought 10 million with one person it's not really about the money it's more about that's a pretty cool challenge >> oh yeah >> so I thought well what if it's good and I can scale it and I can enjoy it and I can do it for 10 years and it doesn't require me to do any thing that takes my freedom. So freedom being time location. Um, >> I bet you're spending a lot of time on this though. >> Yeah. Like all every second of the day. I'm telling you.

>> That's the thing that What's that thing They say when you work for yourself? It's great because you're working for like a absolute you work for Yeah. It's so true. >> No, that's another reason I stopped it cuz I I looked at I just thought I did 33 days back to back. And when I say back to back from the second I woke up and then I started getting ill and I was like, I have to get this work done. So I was like just go to bed at half 8, sleep it off. So, I

was doing literally 33 Days non-stop because I was like, I need to get this thing out for a launch. Yeah. And I did it. But that wasn't the problem. The problem was getting back to normality. Everything felt so boring. I was sitting there at night like, what do I do? Like, I got to build something. I want to build some AI. And then I kept working. So, I didn't come out of it. I kept just going on and on and on. And then it was only when I decided to pull the plug. I thought this

is going to Kill me if I don't stop. But I can't. It was like a workaholic sort of addiction thing. Wow. >> So, I thought stop that uh and try and have a life. >> Yeah, it is a things are moving so fast and it is an amazing time to be a soloreneur and it's exciting and new models coming out. What's this going to allow me to do? How can you and the thing that's what I'm thinking about you is these things are going to change Faster than any technology ever has in human history. And

so, you're going to try to continue to maintain this product with all these different changes is exciting. But, dude, that's going to be >> Well, there is nothing more exciting than what is currently >> happening. How how do you balance? >> Yeah, good question. >> The thing is it's it's so I get obsessed with stuff anyway. So, when I have my blonde business, right, you couldn't Work past 3 p.m. in winter in the UK cuz it's dark. So, I go home and play the guitar for 8 hours. So, I've got a bit of an obsessive

personality. But that was my hobby. And then making videos was my hobby. So, now my hobby is building software for a education company. >> Yeah. I that's my windown weirdly on the weekend where I just do like the fun tasks that don't have stakes like oh why don't I try this new idea it's like a creative thing >> y >> but otherwise there's not that's that is a challenge when everything's online and moving >> you think that's a problem because I don't know if you want to talk about this but like there's the flip side

of like health problems and stuff right >> I don't but I don't burn out unless I'm doing too much of the thing I don't like >> so this is if I have a very healthy mix of creative Marketing. Uh so let's say for example like making content I find enjoyable and then marketing and sales and then looking after the client. If I have like a very even mix of them, I can just do that non-stop. I don't ever feel tired. It's not a problem. >> It's fun for you. >> Yeah. The moment one of them

gets more weight than another >> that's when I feel out of line and you Start to so like when sales I only used to open sales once a month for this reason. Sales were open all the time. I was always in sales and I found like, oh, I'm not enjoying this. Suck the life out of me. I'm tired. Once that's shut, hey, this is easy. Like, keep doing it. It's great fun. So, I think it depends on alignment of what you're doing. Of course, if you only ever do things you hate, you're going to burn

out cuz you hate doing it. But this other stuff just Builds me with energy. >> And that's sustainable. >> You Yeah, I think Well, I don't know. Like, we'll find out. I don't know. Well, I look at it and I'm like, what would I have done if I had a job as a hobby at night? And it would have been something to do with computers making things creative. >> Mhm. >> Cuz I've always done it. I used to make websites when I was a kid just for fun. I made music on the computer. Like I've

always made stuff. So I would have been on a computer making something. So that's just what I do. Like if I have to sit and watch Netflix, I'm I'm I'm like put into a new zone. I'm like, this is boring. I don't care about any of these shows. Like >> I try I actually try to do that because when I find myself on like a sprint like you're doing 10 days like Netflix it does almost like meditation you Yeah. It's kind of I feel like it's actually good for me now to watch >> some of

the stuff I watch I'm like I feel like I'm getting dumber watching this. >> But is there is there anything you will do to like completely switch off and not think about this stuff? >> Yeah, I'll go to the pub. >> Okay. >> Probably not a healthy alternative. Yeah. >> No, I mean, yeah, I like going away, but that's one of the the problems at the moment is there's not a huge amount going on in like >> you just work. >> Yeah. So, if there's no one around, I'll just work. >> Um, but I don't

know, you look at it all the way up to like Elon Musk, like he doesn't talk about burnout. Sleeping on like a floor in a shack in Texas Somewhere or something, right? Doing crazy ads. But I think he's just some people's just driven, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> you read his autobiography? >> No. >> It's actually really good. But it seems like when things go slow, like you you sat there, you're like, "What am I going to do?" The first hour you try to I think he he kind of it sounds like he almost

kind of creates problems in his Head just to feel that. >> I think you get addicted to chaos. >> Yeah. >> And then it feels So, I'm very I'm very aware that I'm like, I'm probably pushing this too much. And my parents been like, you need to slow down. >> Yeah. >> And I'll try, but then they just think, oh, some new AI feature. I'll just Google that and oh look, I've built an app. The other day I Just built an app for like calculating my own finances. I was like, "Oh, maybe I could sell

this." >> Yeah. Nice. But it's not I I I have the same issue because it doesn't feel like it's, oh, I'm going 100 miles an hour. Just back off to 80. It feels very binary. And if you back off, it's like everyone's pass. Yeah. It's very on or off. And so if you back off and relax, all of a sudden it feels like everyone's flying by you. It's not like you can Just slow down 10%. It feels like it's all or nothing. You're doing nothing. >> Is that the issue with the internet though? >> Yeah.

It's like you're just plugged in constantly and it's always moving. >> We're in Dubai. >> Yeah. >> So that when I get into bed, the west coast of America's getting up. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. >> So it's like, oh, now I need to start Work cuz most of my clients are up, right? This is when the party's starting. >> Yep. Same thing. You stay awake the whole workday from them. You know, 3:00 in the morning, everyone's getting off work New York time. It's like now it's time to go to bed. I'm It's not good,

man. But I do I generally find I I my goal is I like working Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday hard. Thursday a bit slower. Friday I like to finish by lunch. Saturday I'll do a few hours in the morning. Sunday I sit on the sofa just doing the creative work that isn't essential but I just get a kick out of. >> And you can roll that schedule. >> Yeah, I'll do that forever. Like that's not a problem. >> Yeah. >> But it's also like for me having a Friday afternoon off. Yeah. a really

long weekend. Sometimes, especially in Dubai, feels like I've gone on holiday. All I've done is had Friday afternoon, Saturday, and Sunday. I do three days of nothing here and we're going to different things >> cuz the weather's always nice and stuff like Monday morning, you feel like you've been away for a week. >> I know what you mean. That's what I like about this place living downtown. It's like if I take a walk around the Dubai fountains, you feel like you walked Around Disneyland. It's like you're in a different world. It totally clears the mind.

I know what you mean. Hey, what did you how was what was your experience using an external uh call phone system like a team that did your sales calls for you? What are the pros and cons of that? >> Um there wasn't really any cons. >> It was just 4xed my business. I did nothing. It's crazy. >> Yeah, >> it it was very weird, right? So, my friend referred me to this company and I just thought I'll give it a shot. I'd always been terrified about sourcing it because I'd built a lot of my personal

brand on honesty. >> You hear bad things. >> Yeah. Right. And I was like, what's the incentive is the sales guy to make, right? So why would he turn away? Cuz I turn away so many people. Yeah. >> But I said to them, look, like my Personal brand and my not scamming people is like the most important thing to me. >> Yeah. >> We do not let these people in. We can't do this. We can't do that. Um and it's fine. and a couple of things happened every now and then which were just genuine mistakes

but someone came in and I was like I don't think we should let them in because they had certain stuff but it it Was never like we're trying to make more money and actually the longer I work with them they started to almost get more picky but I think it's cuz they saw better leads coming in and they're also in my Discord they see all the results >> and they see me rebuilding it >> and then the more I rebuild it and the better it got the easier it was to sell. So I think they

caught on to the fact that oh us only closing the right people makes us more money. >> Ah interesting. >> So it was it was if you want a sales team you've basically if you want a YouTube channel that's a full-time business. You're a production company. >> You then have your business. If you have a sales team you're basically a full-time sales management company. >> Separate business. >> Everyone I meet with large info businesses that's the only thing they Complain about. Sales so hard. So, I didn't realize, but I just got rid of that. The

only thing that I found tough was I'd wake up at 7:00 a.m. I've got Angel in like the West Coast of America messaging, oh, can we close this person? Go to bed at night. Like, Angel's just starting the day. So, like the the messages coming in a lot. I should have had someone basically just managing all of that so I didn't have to do it. Um, And then you also have this stress of I've got to get three guys who are hungry to make money, enough business so that they can make money. >> Yeah. You

have three guys. Wow. >> So for me, a good salesperson should want to make as much money as they can. And I was like, and I don't want them to leave, you know? So I was like, hm, I need to keep driving. And it got to the point where I thought, I think I'm Making the sales I'm doing this to make the sales guys money. >> Yeah. >> Cuz they'd be like he'd be like, Ed, I'm going to make you a gazillionaire. I was so excited for the next launch. I was like, I don't really

care, mate. I feel like I'm just doing this so you can get some commission, >> but they were great. And I think if you're going to do it, outsourcing it, >> it was I think it was like 20 25% I gave Away. >> Yeah. >> But me and my friends worked it out. >> We ended up with setters like 5%. >> Good very good closers. Then someone managing it, my friends who don't have that, it was like 8% more. >> Not worth it. >> This is a no-brainer. I've had a few I've had a lot

of calls actually with that company you use and they do seem like upstanding guys. Like they seem Like a solid group. >> Yeah. They've rejected some of my clients. I've sent them and they've said, "No, we don't think we can get you a result." Which I like. I like it when a company's like, "No, we can't help you." >> Yeah. Yeah. It shows. Yeah. Any word. >> Yeah. No, they were they were fantastic. Um >> Yeah. Can we talk about the rest of your team? Because I know your thought Process on team is keep it

very small. >> Yeah. >> Why? >> I don't like managing people. So I hire people and then the first week is basically do they have a brain and any sort of common sense. Like this is probably not the best thing to do but I give them almost no training. I just throw them in and see what they do. So there's a Google doc with like a fiveminute loom and then they get put Into discord and it's like well >> for what kind of role? >> Uh support. They have to be an expert in YouTube right?

But at the end of the day I think that is simple. There is a discord loads of chat rooms. If I was going to be given that role, I would go into the Discord and I would just read to see what would happen. I >> like I don't need to tell this person what to do. >> So that was my strategy. Just let them Get on with it. >> Mhm. >> And if after a week or so they're not turning up or they're not putting effort in or they just don't seem to be getting this,

they don't have the drive or the common sense. So I'd move them on. And the guys that stayed don't bother me ever. What? Before you shut the business down. Yeah. What did the team look like? >> There's three full-time sales guys and There's six support in Discord. >> Oh, wow. >> Um, we had Andrew who has been doing info for 30 years. Like 18 million a year. He applied. I was like, I don't think I can afford you, Andrew. He'd been watching me for years. >> Applied for what role >> to work for me? >>

Support. >> Yeah. >> Wow. So he when I made one of my first ever cheap workshops, I sent it to my list. It was like $85 and he emailed me straight away. He's like, "What are you doing? Get it up to 145." So I was like, we'd had a call and I was like, >> weird numbers, 85 and 145. >> No, he was like, "You cannot sell us less than 145. Just put it up." So I did straight away. And then um he'd always just sort of emailed me and we'd had like chats. I'd had

a call with him and I thought he was an interesting guy. >> Uhhuh. and he was like, "Yeah, I put out a job application and said, "Does anyone, you know, apply?" It was for a business role, so I was like, ideally, I was looking for a copyriter. >> Um, and he was like, "Oh, can I can I apply?" I was like, "I don't think I can afford 10 grand an hour." And he was like, "No, no, no, no. I'll do it for like," and he named his price. I was like, "This would be the dumbest

thing For me to turn down." >> Wow. >> So, that's crazy. People sign up. And in the intro, I'm like, "This is Andrew. He made $1.4 million in a day once and he did 18 million a year. We've been for 30 years. So, but also like he's so good and uh he's very he just turns up cuz he loves it. So, I'm worried about him. >> Uh Orin, who's my copyriter, he's been doing it for >> two years. Again, I didn't really know What I was doing when he started because it was a new product.

So, I just thought let's just see what happens. He turns up a good job. I then have two guys who have been working me for four years. Same sort of thing. don't really talk to them in terms of like do this, do that. They just know what to do. And then I had a an intern apply called Casten. Um, and he I get loads of interns saying, "Can I work for you?" And I always I'm like, "No, no, I don't Want to train anyone." He sent me a video. It was it was epic. And he

was like, "I want to do this. I want to help you." He'd done one of my courses years ago. Um, I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna say yes to this guy." He said, "You literally cannot pay me. It is illegal to pay me. I have to do this for uni." He he came in and as he was like, "What can I help with?" I was like, "I don't know really. Like, what do you want to help with?" He said, "Oh, I like solving Problems." So, I said, "Oh, I'm going to give you my problems and you

want to solve them." And he was like, "All right." And and then I said, "What's your project? Like, how can I help you?" And he said, "Oh, um, I've basically got to like try and benefit your business in some way." So I said, "Well, why don't we try and add a million in turnover to my business in the next few months by increasing the amount of support we can provide?" Because right now we're kind Of struggling with the support. So he was like, "Okay, I'll do that." And we did it. He's I literally watched him

deliver a report to his uni about how he added a million dollars to my business and I had Yeah. And I backed it up. He basically helped me with AI. He built tons of systems. He built loads of automations. He removed all of these operational bottlenecks. I never told him anything to do. >> Wow. >> He messages me, can I do more? What more can I tell me? Can you rate my performance? And uh yeah, he finished the 5 months. I was like, I'll pay you now. And then >> where's he now? What's he doing?

>> He's helping me. But >> he's still working for you. >> Well, I said to him like, "What do you want to do?" And he said, "Oh, I just want to make get to 25K a month as quick as possible." I was like, "Well, you're Really good at YouTube." That was another thing. But he knew YouTube, but the guy's like a spun. He's he was not like a professional YouTuber, but I'm going into Discord. He's giving like almost some of the best feedback out of all of us. >> Wow. >> He's learning at this insane

rate. This guy's a freak. >> How old is this dude? >> 22 21. >> Where does he live? >> Uh Belgium. He's just moved to Cyprus. >> Jeez. >> I was like, I'm not I'm not going to try and keep this guy. Like he's he's clearly cut out for big things. So I just said to him like if you want to start an agency for YouTube just just message my client and say can I help you for free get some testimonials if you get a good result charge them. >> So is that all right? So

started doing That on the side and then >> wow more of those people. >> Rooster who AI chose I thought I'll get AI to write a job description then build me the Google form. I'll put it on my community and then I'll pick the candidate. So, it did it all. And then I thought, I'm going to go through it and pick my candidate before I look at the AI. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, this one looks best. >> Out of how many? >> 40. >> Oh, that's crazy. >> Then the AI picked Rouser,

the same girl. >> Yeah, >> she's been amazing. >> How long ago was that? I'm just trying to think what model it was. >> Eight months. Oh, it was four. Oh, it was when Operator first came out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, she's been fantastic. again. She doesn't They all know I don't want to be like bothered with stuff. So, their natural instinct is fix it first. If I can't fix it, come ahead. >> Last last. >> I don't know what the hell Ken was doing with my business. Like, he was he was answering all

these messages all this. Like, one day he said like, "Oh, this person's struggling, so I just gave him An extra month." And I was like, "That's fine. Whatever, man." So, they they they've learned by themselves. They're very common sense driven and they know not to try and bother me with stuff that doesn't really need me in it. And I've just stayed very hands off and and that has worked in sense of a team cuz I'm not I get frustrated like if someone's not good and not trying as hard as I can. It offends me cuz

I always try as hard as I can. >> Mhm. So yeah, as soon as they suck, they're gone. And I get someone else in. And then I think reindors, he said to me, they're not good in their first week to fire them. They're never going to be good. >> Yeah, >> they should at least be trying. It doesn't matter if they get it wrong, but as long as they're trying, so my team management is non-existent, but it seems to work for me. >> So let's say there's like a lead genen business. >> Yeah. >> They've

just started a channel. What should they be doing before they even get to the monetization stage, right? >> So they are helping other people generate leads to their business. Let's say they do. We've got a mutual friend, right? Facebook ad lead genen Facebook. How do you start a YouTube channel for that to get B2B leads? >> Well, the first thing I'd do is not try and grow a YouTube channel. I just put content on YouTube and then I take distribution out of YouTube hands because the Facebook ad space is quite competitive. So like Ben Heath

sits at the top sucking up everyone's impressions. And the way YouTube works is you're competing against everyone else your viewers could watch. YouTube's going to push the content that gets the Best reaction. So, you're going to be new. That ain't going to be you. And you have to accept that you're only going to get views until you're better than Ben Heath in this niche that gets all the views. So, I the first thing I do is practice. Just think, forget the views. I'm gonna make content that's useful, but then I'm gonna when a new lead

inquires to our business, I'm going to put it in front of them, say, "Oh, here's a video on it. Please watch it." And that's actually really powerful. Anyone who runs ads, they just need a YouTube channel for people to discover and the ad conversion shoot up a ton because people see there's value and use >> like a resume. >> Yeah. So, you have someone inquire, oh, please watch this video. Oh, watch this one. Create a playlist. And that's really good for helping businesses convert. And then it's just a game of firstly you've got to make

sure you stay Position. So this is what everyone gets wrong. So the Facebook ads guy traditionally in the business niches someone's like I've made a lot of money. I just want to talk about business. It's like no stick to Facebook ads. Well no I can talk about business can't I? And other stuff. Well you can't because 100 million in a day. So don't don't be the business guy. I'm going to be the business guy. All right. And then they're like I'm not getting any views. I'm like yeah because no one cares about you when Horosi

is sucking up all the impression. Be the Facebook guy. You're really good at that. So, you want to stay in your lane and then you want to put a different spin on it. So, there's going to be 10 channels all talking about Andromeda's Facebook update. You, if you're going to compete with them, you've got to put the new take on it because someone's going to watch one video and get all the information, then Another and go, I already know this or I already know this. >> Is the new take entertainment or different information? The new

take is the same information but in a way that feels new. >> Does that mean packaged differently? >> No, the way that it's presented. So, it's very hard to give new information, especially in the business space because nothing's changed. The fact the technology has changed, but the Fundamentals are pretty much the same as they've been for the last forever, right? So, everyone's just repeating themselves. And this is what happens in most niches. We run out of new things. The only thing that can fill you is the way that you explain it. That's where storytelling comes

in. Talking about, oh, I helped this client get this result. So, for example, if I was going to make a video on how to use Facebook's new conversion thingy blip to make you More money, very technical, very dull. If I turned around and made a video that was like how I took someone 10k a month, 100k a month on Facebook and then gave them the same information packaged as a story easier to digest. It's new because the story is new. No one's heard that story before. >> Yeah. >> So it's it's packaged up in a

way where people will watch it and it will sink in and then what happens is people don't Remember every single thing in a video. you give like a longass tutorial, they're not going to remember 50 steps, but they'll remember a story and that's the thing they walk off with. So, you make the impact. So, you kind of want to get good at working out how do I simplify? How do I come up with frameworks, stories, metaphors, demonstrations that make my information feel unique? >> The everything you said though there Except for stories can be replicated

by AI. Demonstrations, analogies. Well, we got to assume it's gonna get better. >> It can. It helps a lot. >> Let's assume eventually that it will be as good as your entire process that anyone can do. A third grader can do it. And I think about that a lot because you're already seeing I I saw this product is a whole YouTube channel that was it was like animated. It was clearly not real. It wasn't even uncanny valley. The voice was like a fake voice, but it sounded very good. This fake voice sold a video product

that people were buying. There's no human. It's this fake old wise man teaching old mystic stuff. >> And I just think about I was talking to you about this like let's say you get to the point where with an iPhone camera you can hold it like this and then all of a sudden AI generation can emulate a three camera setup with perfect lighting and movements and sliders and stuff and It makes your voice sound amazing. What will we be able to do to differentiate ourselves and all these things you said stories is really the only

thing what you've done the proof and your own personal life examples. Can you think of anything else that could out compete AI that they what it can't do? >> Not using it. >> It's going to be the edge. >> So, >> but how would you know? >> Well, because every when the tech what happens is someone comes up with a new thing. >> So, everyone's going to use it. So, let's say they're using the three camera setup. Everyone's going, "Wow, that's amazing. I'm going to do that." There'll be an initial spike where someone benefits and

then everyone's going to be like, "Oh, it's just a dumb AI thing. I just want a human, a person chatting at the end of their bed in their room." >> Yeah. >> Right. So I feel like that's just always going to exist. AI can do that, but it what happens is the baseline goes up, but at the moment AI has taken it so anyone can go from rubbish to below average. >> Yeah. >> Um certain things that's like image generation is very good at then it gets good at scripting and stories. Well then the baseline

goes up again. So now you Just have to be better than the baseline. But the only way you're going to be able to get ahead is to get good at the things that you actually just need to get good at now and always stay ahead of the AI. And the way that you'll do that is just by the same thing. It's just it just means more good competition, but you have to come up with more interesting stories, better, more unique ways of explaining. And like I said, the AI is only a turbocharger. A beginner's not

going to know, right? I want a highstakes story with a twist because that is the best sort of story out there. And they're not going to be able to spot one. and they're going to be like, "That's a story. I'll just put that one in." >> You But you are talking about the way these models are now. >> Yeah. >> I I'm always interested. I'm assuming That the models will be so good that they're better that if like let's just say if you spent 10 hours going through your process, say the models are so good

that it's even 10% better. Well, then who's going to do good on YouTube? Like a telecaster who can just read a teleprompter very naturally. >> No, it'll be this it'll be the director. This is So you you you go from being the talent and the writer to just the director. So if all the bottlenecks are Gone, presenting. >> Yeah. >> Filming, editing, writing. >> Yeah. Well, you still have presenting. But yeah, >> you just got No, because the avatar's already doing that. That'll go, >> right? >> So you've just got to be the person who

pieces it together. Like the like the guy Christopher Nolan, >> right? He's the visionary that uses all Of the >> Yeah. So you you'll probably just become someone who's using all the AI and you get very good at working out how to package it all together. >> It could be. We're like you said though, we're already seeing some of these like I think Tik Tok already has something where you can toggle don't show AI and I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean of course that's going to happen. I the way I see could see it is

like three options. >> A toggle button for no fully AI, a toggle button for no assisted by AI which would take off all the beauty filters and stuff like that. I don't want to see anything. Even if it's not slop, I don't The minute I know it's AI, I lose all interest. >> So, I guess I'm assuming everyone's going to toggle. It has to be 100% real. But still a phenomenal >> I don't think they are. >> Hollywood's You don't think of what? >> I don't think anyone's going to toggle that. >> You don't think

though? >> No. I think we'll go for a period where there's going to be two groups, anti- AI and pro AI, and it will go two different ways. But then I think it'll go back to AI for the same reason that everyone no one cares in a nightclub that the guy isn't using vinyl. No one cares that the person isn't using a film camera. Eventually the technology just takes Over. But I think everything will be AI and you'll look at someone who presents like the person who's mixing on vinyl. Oh wow, that's a cool skill.

They used to do that like 20 years ago. Like wow. >> Yeah. Like a vintage thing. >> And I think eventually normal care. I think it'll be too hard to spot a difference as well. But I feel like we're going to go through this point where it's exactly the same as social media. Like Facebook popped off. The Half of the world was outraged. Oh, it's taking away personal connection. And then half of us was like, "Oh, this is cool. I love it. I can poke women like me poking people, right, after a drunk night out."

So, and then eventually everyone just went, "Yeah, right. Facebook." >> And then the winner go it goes back to the first principles of the skills. >> Yeah. >> And who can amalgamate everything? >> That's the thing. So, I think instead of having I think it's amazing. I love the idea that I'm going to be able to write a script for a film and then I'm going to be able to shoot it without leaving my desk, you know, and make a movie just for fun that will look like a Christopher Nolan like cinematic thing, right? So,

it's going to suck, right? cuz we never done it before. But it it it will bring all the benchmarks, all the baseline um sorry, all the problems, The bottlenecks for producing stuff will have gone, but that you're still going to have to direct and that will be the only thing that's left, although the AI will probably be able to do that as well. And then it probably just becomes a competition of everyone is the top in the niche. You're constantly fighting against impressions and views versus >> how do you get started at that point if

you're new? Uh, it will be the same as Now, the same thing. You're just competing against better people, >> but it's going to be insanely difficult, right? >> Yeah. No, because the the beginner level shot up. It's just moving. >> Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. >> Right. So, the the the problem will be that won't get burned out and if it gets to the exponential sort of AGI thing, it will probably just figure out everything and you won't stand a chance. But then If that happens, I guess it's the person who has the

AI that's making it. I don't know. The only thing studies do show that especially with music, people don't want to see AI. Like there's some cool versions of old Cisco songs that people like, but there is something about knowing that it's real and authentic. And I think there may be a trend towards like, you know, watches that are handmade and things that are not replicatable. I I I I totally agree with You and I think there is a good chance that it'll get so good that nobody will care whatsoever. But I also think there's a

chance that people would want to toggle that and learn from people. But if it comes to learning, what do they really want? Well, it depends on if they really want to learn the skill or be entertaining. >> Are you going to really care? Right. So, imagine there's two videos and one of them is the it just every problem you've Ever had around something just becomes so easy to understand and everything clicks. >> Yeah. >> And it's AI >> and then you watch the human where you're like kind of get it. >> Yeah. No. No way.

So, if you really are there just to learn, no question asked. You just want to get things. But how many people that are watching YouTube are there just for learning, not Learning and entertainment or entertainment? >> That's the that's the market I deal with. I don't watch the entertainment stuff. >> Yeah. But a lot of people are educating and entertaining because that's how you get the views. Yeah. >> So yeah, I I don't know. But I do, like you said, if there's exponential takeoff, then there's no hope. But if there is still some value in

learning From an actual person, how can you stand out? That's what I'm trying to think through. >> Well, it would be your unique story. It still be the same thing. >> I think it's story. Yeah, exactly. stories and testimonials cuz an AI can't I guess an AI could testimonial just make it up, right? But like it's it would be the unique >> thing. I mean the storytelling is the thing that's been around forever. That's The only thing that's never changed is how we communicate. >> Yeah. >> So just be unique stories. And this is this

is kind of the problem with YouTube in general >> is a lot of people start it and they don't realize that. Okay, this is probably the best example I can give. We had a guy join our program and he got allowed in because you have to have an offer and you have to have like Expertise and you have to have made content before and they they wanted to do a channel which was basically growing businesses online. So he puts out a few videos and it's getting like three views and he's like what the hell's going

on? And I was like oh man this is this is bad. I clicked play on it and I thought something's not right here. Like I can tell why this is getting free views. said to him, you know, we need to use more stories of your client wins and how You've grown businesses online. Oh, I've never done that. What What do you mean? And uh he said, "Oh, well, we I How did you get in? Like, you need a business and an offer." He's like, "Well, we made an offer before we came in. They never sold

anything online. They had an offer teaching to make money online. The channel this this person wasn't scammy. They genuinely just didn't see the issue. So, I said, "Look, like I think I'm going have to refund you. Like, I Don't think I can help." >> Mhm. Um, he said, "No, no, I want to keep going. I want to keep going." So, he keeps going. He's getting like 20 views a video. >> Were they good videos? >> You would, a beginner would look at them and wouldn't see a problem. I could see it. There wasn't the difference

between someone who has lived and breathed something for 10 years. >> Yeah. >> And someone who hasn't is I can instantly tell, right? So, eventually I say to this guy like, "It's not going to happen." >> Hold on. Just just to be clear, you could tell that he didn't know his stuff or you could tell because you've been doing this for 10 years. >> I can spot some you everyone can spot someone who's made a video. >> Yeah. >> Who teaches and it often looks Effortless. Like Daniel Pink, for example, he's blowing up on YouTube

right now. He's written six books. He's been teaching the same thing for 20, 30 years. So, his content is just very good because he knows how to do it, right? He's an expert. So he's he'd come in and I said, "I don't think you need to I think we need to stop, right?" And then I said he said, "Oh man, you know, I just want to talk about growing businesses." I'm like, "Well, what have You done in the past?" Cuz I teach everyone to build their channel around their backstory. >> Mhm. >> And he said,

"Well, you know, I I was a lawyer and then I made $40 million from auto body repair." And I was like, "What?" Like, "What the what?" He's like, "Yeah, yeah, an auto repair company few million dollars a year." I was like, "That's insane. That's your channel." >> Oh, I don't know if I want to do that. like and I was like do that. So he did it. The first few videos get off to a slow start. Messages 32,000 views. People join his way in his next one like 20,000 views. I clicked play on one of

his videos and watched the whole thing and as soon as I hit play, he just completely got lost in his information cuz he explained everything like an expert who'd been doing it. >> Oh, I see. So easy. >> His his information was $14 million worth because not only does he know stuff, that's one thing. you then have to know how to communicate it, right? And you only get good at communicating by teaching people over and over and over again and doing it. So now I was like, "Oh, this guy's channel is probably going to make

him a ton because he's gone from being literally the bottom of the make money online space to the top of another niche." And that that That's the big issue with YouTube is a lot of people come in and they don't realize they are up against >> worldass expert >> and they go, "Oh, the channel's growing so quick." And it's like, yeah, because they put in 20 20 years of work already and you've just started. >> Yeah. >> So, you really have to kind of um accept if you're not like been doing something for 5 or

10 years, you don't have the Stories basically to get the success that these other people do. >> How important is that to be the expert versus being great on camera? Is one more important than the other? Are they equally important? >> Great on camera is subjective. You can say Dan Co, for example. I wouldn't say he's great on camera. >> He's very monotonous. >> Yeah. >> But people love him, right? >> He's authentic. >> Yeah. So, so you've got Dan and then you've got other people who are like really over the top and then you've

got other people in the middle. So, great on camera depends on what your viewers want. >> Mhm. >> It's more expertise and how you communicate. There's different levels. Like we get people come in a I made like 100 million last year and and then they make a video and it's crap because they didn't they basically just delegated everything. So they're not an expert in communicating how they did all the stuff. They just paid other people to do it. >> So the most important thing is that solid knowledge and being able to explain it. >> Yeah.

Yeah. >> Those are the two things. >> Authenticity. >> Yeah. That that then is authentic because and this is why a lot of people think if you make a YouTube video just sit down, right? start put down a few bullets and start talking because they'll see Daniel Priestley do it. >> Well, Daniel Priestley hasn't put six bullet points down on a bit of paper. He's written five best-selling books. >> Yeah. >> And that's where his scripts were done. >> So, if you look at the top personal brands, the people that blow up on YouTube, they're

all writers by trade. >> Oh, is that right? >> Pretty much. >> Like, if you look in the if I I usually go to the most valuable niche of the business niche. So, Hozi books, Russell Bronson books, Dan Martell books, Daniel Pink's blowing up like crazy right now. Books, Dan O books, it's all books. They're writers. And then they worked All of the stuff out. They've worked out how to simplify. And then that just becomes the channel. So, if you if you try and get into YouTube and you're like, I'm just going to knock up

a few bullet points and then talk, people just talk absolute nonsense. There's no structure. >> Yeah. They go talking about this point and then they're talking about this point like five miles down the road and then they go back and it just confuses People. They go, "Oh, what's going on? I'm not growing. I did the thumbnail good." It's like, "Yeah, but what came out your mouth was awful." Like, we got to fix it. So, there's there's all these bottlenecks. And I think that's the one thing AI is not going to fix >> is it will

have the information, but it won't have necessarily the 20 years worth. >> Storytelling and the authenticity is missing, right? Yeah. >> Yeah. back to the kind of example of the Facebook ads kind of business and how you start that YouTube. >> All of this stuff is so much more important than thumbnail title and kind of the packaging, right? >> It's a bit tricky because the thumb and title is technically the most important bit until someone's clicked it and then the video is the most important bit. So, it's it's like um you have the the the

most important Thing is positioning. So, this is basically making sure that when you put a video out, when you've got viewers, YouTube tests it with them first. If you're making stuff they're not interested in, they're not going to come back. From a business point of view, bringing people back is profitable because that's how you warm them up and turn into clients. So, you need to position every video so it's of interest to a type of person that they keep Coming back. And then if YouTube pushes it to more people like them, the person discovers your

channel and goes, "Wow, every video is super relevant to me. I love it." and then they binge and then more people get to see it. >> Then you got to come up with a thumbnail and title, which is not just coming up with a thumbnail and title. A thumbnail and title is working out how do I take an idea and make it interesting? So, how to make Facebook ads? That's one Video. Is that as interesting as I spent $3 million on ads and learned this? You have to work out, do people like curiosity based titles?

Do they like more like how to do this titles? Um, and then you've got to come up with a thumbnail that works with the time. >> Does that vary a ton between niche? >> Yeah, it does. >> I didn't realize until the last because I've worked with so many niches now. Only the last 18 months I've got a Massive bird's eye view. >> Yeah. >> I was like, oh, this is very different across niches. I always thought it was very similar. It >> it might have changed. 2023 was very clickbaity, very curiosity based, very vague

titles like how to change your life in 90 days. five mistakes that will do you know fix stop something from working right these titles used to blow up now non clicks on the two >> so it's like time based as well >> yeah so you have the niches have different people and then the trend of YouTube as well I'm looking at people and they're like oh this thumbnail and title on why didn't get any views it was based on another video that got too many I was like well that's like me wearing a Bon Dutch

hat like the times have gone right >> still cool still cool >> so you have these niche sways and then You have um the meta, the trend. So you need to know what is relevant for your audience. Um and then the thumbnail and title you get the click and then you got to hook them with the intro. And this is the problem. So the thumbnail, title, and intro the same thing. It what you what happens when someone sees a thumbnail and title is their brain scans instantly for am I going to get this? And most

people will start with a hook that feels like it has nothing to do With what they clicked on. So the viewers like what? And then they'll set up the value of the video to come and it's like, well, that's not really what I wanted from the video. So, I get everyone to plan their intro based around just three questions they think their viewer would have looking at their thumbnail and title. >> Okay. >> And it stops you from making an intro that basically is wildly different from What people expect. >> So, you come up with

three questions based on the thumbnail and title. And then how do you work that into your hook or your intro? >> So, we have a setup, right? So, we the intro is split into three parts. You have a hook. Then you set up the problem the viewer has very quickly. And then you set up the value of the video, which is basically going to solve the problem. And I'll I'll usually set up three Things. So this video I'm going to show you how to set up the ads. I'm going to show you a trick that's

going to double them. I'm going to show you this and that. Those three things I set up are usually the answers to the questions I believe my viewer has when they click on a video. >> How long is that whole intro? Do you try to keep it into? >> Try and keep it under 20 seconds. >> Oh, yeah. Wow. I might only do one Thing. But if you can try and second guessess what they care about and then you just say I'm going to give you that, they'll stick around. >> Yeah. >> But people are

very bad at that. >> Yeah. That that that formula I I remember hearing you talk about that like the middle thing. It's kind of like you paid the dream scenario. If you do this, it'll you do this. It just keeps you very focused because when there is a Lot of information to something to have that template it's easy to drift. Yeah. Because it is exciting stuff but you got to keep so compact for that intro. I think that that's that's helpful for me. >> So that's kind of the next part of the pipe you have

to unblock right is the intro. So that after the click that becomes the next important thing >> and then after that the structure of the content is the most important thing. So what what tends to happen is someone Will set up three things in an intro. Let me teach you this, this, this, and this. And then they just start talking >> and the viewer's going, which bit is the which one of the three things are you talking about? Right? So then the viewer goes, get to the point or what they do is they they pay

off the lesson straight away. So they might say, I'm going to show you how to double your Facebook ads now. And they start off by going, just push that button, it'll Double your ads. Right? Let me tell you about a story of time I use this. And people are like, I don't need the story. You just told me the information. Right? Get to the point. So, you have to then learn how to structure information in a specific way that hooks the viewer, lets them know where they are in the video. Then, it needs to give

them the simplest explanation possible, which is usually a story, so that the viewer goes, "Oh, I get the problem this solves, and it Sounds like the sort of thing that I could solve myself." Keeps them inspired. And then you give them the detail. And then once you finish that, you go, "Right now, I'm going to show you the second thing I promised." And you repeat this process over and over again. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's kind of hard to do because sometimes it can feel like you're just dragging your feet before you give them the

good stuff. You know What I mean? >> You do it quick. But but the thing is you also have to realize like people aren't paying attention a lot of the time. >> So if you don't keep constantly reminding people what's coming next, >> they forget this is there's so many YouTube videos I watch and I'm like you have literally not told me what you're going to tell me. >> Yeah. >> Why would I listen? It has to have a point. It's like a story that doesn't have a beginning. We don't know what you're watching it

for. This is this is interesting. How how important is it? Let's say you did a video and you didn't follow your template, but it had a lot of the same had 80% of the same information, but it sounds like you have a template that's very like this, this, this, this. How much better do you think it would perform being right on that Template versus the eb and flow of you're just kind of talk I'm going to hit these points during the video? Do you have any idea? >> Depends on what you mean my performance because

I don't optimize my content for views. I optimize it for buyers, which is very different. What about like in retention? >> If I was just trying to get as many views as possible, I would follow a slightly different structure. So, I'm Teaching education, right? If I was going for entertainment, which is what I used to do on film booth where it was very heavily story based, I'd do like a challenge or something like that, I I would follow the traditional story arc, which is basically the same thing. Every story starts with a problem. Every point

I make in a video starts with a problem. Um, then I'm give us then the story itself, you know, the character tries to solve the problem. something goes wrong So they try and overcome it and then at the end of the story is the outcome what happened if they solved the problem or didn't and then more importantly if they didn't what did they learn what changed that transformation >> so that that's what I follow to get views but it's a very similar kind of structure in each point you just start with the problem and then

give an example and then you give the little lesson at the end a different version >> does your data show that every niche of video performs better following that tight template No, because you can't track that because if the thumbnail and title sucked. >> Yeah, >> it's impossible to track. >> I guess if somebody had not use that template and they're the same thumbnails and titles, those don't get any better and then all of a sudden they start incorporating the template you're Teaching. Do you almost always see an improvement in metrics? >> If if the

positioning and the thumbnail and title, all the other things and the delivery are good, then yes, you will. But only if their videos before sucked. Right. So the thing about a template is every every art form has formats like we have chords, right? We don't just play random notes. We string chords together. >> Mhm. >> And then film follows like three-act structure and then you know um um Picasso did realism and then he came up with his own style once he'd mastered the format which was cubism. So you can you need to follow when you're

a beginner some sort of structure so that you can then develop your unique style. Maybe you do tweak it a bit. Maybe you do change it because I don't follow that every video like religiously. Like I I'll throw in different techniques. I'll Pull certain bits out. But I had to learn a structure first. Otherwise it's chaos. I'm just like making noise, right? And that's what most people are doing. They're just saying stuff thinking if I just say it I'm sure it makes sense and it makes sense to them. >> Yeah. I'll cover it somewhere in

the video. >> So yeah, you want to you need to you need to learn the structure. You need to learn tools. So I know right the point I Want to make is something people can't see and it's complex. So the first thing I need to do is show them the problem in a visual way that makes it very simple. So they go, I get I get why that happens. I get the problem. I get the solution. So I often use props like a cup with jelly beans in and I'm like this cup here is your

business. We got to get the jelly beans up to this line here. Right. But then what happens is it's simple. People see it and go, "Oh, I get that. Now they understand the problem." They're primed for more of the deep stuff. >> Mhm. >> So you kind of want to learn the skills of when do I use a story, when do I use a visual demo, when do I use a metaphor, when's best to bring in a framework, and then I plug those into a format. >> Okay. So you have little pieces that you put

into the specific video, but for the most part, it's still very formulaic. You're using pieces and and you think I guess a better way to ask a question is if you let's say you took a YouTuber that had some success that got 100,000 followers just for conversation sake >> and you said hey make your vid they weren't using a template before same thumbnail same title and you split tested that if you could somehow versus a video that follows one of your templates you think the one usually that uses your template would do better >> no

because I'd have to watch what they were doing to work that out >> but let's just assume you're an average YouTuber not using a template so they're just kind of flowing >> yeah if most people had just so some niches People get along way of crap basically because there's less competition. >> Uhhuh. >> So there are niches that are just so much easier to dominate. They should see An uplift. Problem is if they're already the top of their niche and there are view ceilings, right? So if they're crap and they're already getting good views with

crap, there might not be any more room to go with better content. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is another weird thing you see in niches like there's ceilings on views. So we I've had clients come in before and we're not going to get you any more views. You've capped out. Like, >> how do you know that? >> Because you could just go on YouTube and let's say competitor, let's say it's email marketing, right? You look and you're like, well, the most viewed email marketing video of all time is a million. >> The next

is 10,000 views. >> The next are all getting five. >> You're not going to get more than 10,000 views per video. It's not really there in the market. You might have some Outliers. So, that's actually a very good thing if you hit the ceiling because it means you don't have to put as much effort in. If you're like putting low effort hitting the ceiling, now you just focus on the business and the funnel. It's actually way easier to make money, but some people are like so obsessed with views. I had a guy once. He wanted

to get a silver play button you get when you get 100,000 subscribers. He was like, "Oh, the Business isn't making any money." I was like, "Well, let's work on that." No, no, no. I'll focus on the channel. I got to get the play button first. I like, "But you're literally you have no money." He was like, "Yeah, but I want the play button." I was like, "But you're going this take you a year." Um, so you cap out, but then you just >> Yeah. optimize your sales pages and your offer and you can make a

lot more money. But it's not a case of like there's this magic formula you follow on the internet and it will instantly make things better. It's more like training world so that you can get better and then maybe you get to the point where you're like I'm not going to use that section of it. Cut that out. I don't need it. The view understands it. I don't need a story. Let's move on. >> The reason it's so interesting to me is because I've never done this and and I'm Starting >> anyone has. >> Yeah. Yeah.

And and it but it it makes a lot of sense. It's just like it's just like using a teleprompter script versus using bullets. Even though it may seem a little more natural not using a teleprompter script, you can be there's not a single wasted word when you're using a teleprompter. And that's so it's probably a lot more valuable than flowing. >> This is the weird thing. Everyone's like, "It's not natural if I plan it." It's like, >> what? Imagine if someone wrote a book and didn't plan it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I just wanted to

naturally write it. The words just flow out of me. Everyone would be like, "You're mental. This is crazy. >> You don't edit it." And everyone it's not natural if I don't and it's like why Does it have to be natural? >> I think I'm making marketing >> only if it's like a story right? So if it's just if you're telling stories formul well I guess if you're telling if it's like a vlog then it >> follows a formula fake. It should be >> but you're not reading a teleprompter. And then some people when they read

a teleprompter it and yesterday I was >> because they're not very good at teleprompter. >> I know but a lot of people aren't. That's a skill. >> Yeah. But you have like anything you have to get better at it. >> Yeah. So, no, I I agree with you what you're saying, but I've I'm learning the value of the teleprompter script, and now I'm thinking, damn, should I be going more formulaic with my stuff, >> but there's a difference between like structure and natural, right? >> Yeah. So, the structure of a script is Very different to

presenting off a teleprompter. That's actually the information you get out. Then the delivery is the teleprompter. So, again, right, so I put thousands of people in front of a camera and taught them how to present in my old production company. And for 2 years we we were not having a teleprompter. It's not natural, right? Just let it fly out. And we had people crying. >> We were like, "Come in for an hour. We'll shoot one video." I remember this girl was in tears. My business partner was like, "Shut up. You're making her cry more." We

had a paratrooper, an ex paratrooper, like stern as anything. He was like shaking. We had CEOs come in who used to do keynote speaks and they were like, "I can't talk to the camera." >> Wow. >> And in the end, we just went, "I'm just going to write a script on teleprompter." This person smashed it Out. went that first as well, easy and we saw and I'll fight this to the death cuz I saw I saw it so much that you only need to get good at learning how to present a teleprompter and you don't

have to think right so when you are not using a teleprompter you have got to structure your video you got to come up with the stories you then got to deliver it right so you're giving your brain three very intensive tasks >> I don't even know what I'm saying when I'm using a teleprompter I'm like Ron Burgundy you could write anything in there watch the video back and be like who slipped that line in right So all of your effort and energy goes into delivery. So when I'm reading my teleprompter, I'm just think I'm just

focusing on this one task and then if the video is 15 minutes long, I'll film it in 20 minutes. >> And then the editor, like you said, >> so much faster. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because they know exactly. >> So when I tried this recently because everyone was fighting me, thought maybe I'll find a better way. Um, I went back and my 40minute video took me six hours to film and I was exhausted and then the edit took me a day piecing it together just to get to the edit. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, >> it

was hard. So, I thought I'd just write it next time. But also, the the The biggest thing the biggest problem about not using a teleprompter is you don't learn to write and there is not a more powerful skill than writing. So you end up shooting yourself in the foot because you stop your development which will turn you into someone who sales pages more better copy better content. You basically hold yourself back 10 years >> but it's hard and I sound unnatural on camera and it's like well yeah practice It three or four times you'll be

fine. >> Mhm. >> You don't even notice when you're watching other people too like sometimes if I if I think about it like oh yeah he probably is using a teleprompter. kind of have to actually think. Most people are >> Oh, almost every cuz most people >> aren't that natural. But it's still unless you're really focused on it, you're not like, "Oh, this sucks cuz He's on a teleprompter." It's not really how your brain works. >> No, I think when you if you notice it, but what most people do is they set up a teleprompter

and they put it really wide on the screen. So, they move their eyes from left to right. They look shady. Yeah. >> So, I just set the app so that the thing is is just as wide as the camera lanes never move. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm just staring. And then you have to remember to blink. Anytime you see me on camera, look away. I'm doing it intentionally because I used to get comments being like, "Dude, blink. You've stared at the camera for 10 minutes and you've not even moved your head." So, I'll be sitting

there reading the flip and I'm like, "You haven't looked away for a while." So, yeah. >> And that and then >> there's things you can do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just takes practice. >> There's a It's It's a system that's kind of like we've been I've been doing for years now. and I've put so many people through it and I just know that if you write and and teleprompt, you just get better and faster and it's easier. >> The speed is priceless, too. If you're not editing your own, have you ever done It where

you recorded stuff and you weren't using a script and you had somebody try to pick what you want to keep in? >> It's impossible. >> It it really is impossible even if they're good because sometime you want some obscure thing that sounds obscure, but it's like the core of the whole video. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, that's that's that's that's the the beauty of it. You just save time somewhere else. Are there any niches that you think you'd be like, man, you really got to think twice about getting into this one, or are there

any that you think, man, this is really underserved. This is a great opportunity. >> Yeah, there are gaps out there. I had a client who wanted to go into the business niche. And I I said, what's your offer? And he Was like, it's mainly LinkedIn. At the time, I was like, there's not a single channel on YouTube doing LinkedIn. Just be the LinkedIn guy. >> Yeah. >> And he did. And uh >> it took off. >> Yeah. >> Did some good stuff for his business. There are gaps out there that I see and there there

are other niches. Fitness, business, self-help. It's really Saturated. You've got to be very good and you've got to find someone to differentiate you. So most people who are like, I want to go to the business case, I'm like, don't. You have to you have to stay away from Hormosi and Dan Mattel as much as you can because we can't compete with their backstory, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I wanted to go back to the business model point. So, you you're kind of Saying that info and SAS are kind of coming together. Obviously,

there's benefits to that because now you can exit the business, right? Yeah. Is there a place for some kind of high ticket event or done for you service which is kind of inerson access to the person or the team behind the channel? And what do you think about that? >> What what would that look like? >> Uh so for you it could be, you know, like mastermind weekend, that kind of Stuff. Are >> you plugging my event unintentionally? >> Sort of. But I guess what I'm asking here is there a coalition of or coalescence sorry

of info SAS and agency into kind of one sphere of online business. >> I think agency info and SAS would be the the ultimate combo that sounds really good. >> Also one of the problem with agencies is like getting the client to give you the Flipping work, right? >> The more of that you can do for them, but also creating systems and software where they can just tap into it sends reminders and so on. >> So I think that would be amazing. Yeah. In terms of events, I don't do them just because I've never done

them and I thought I'd try and see what happens. It's not really a 10x move as I call it. For me, it's more meet some of the clients I've met, see if I Like it, expense a holiday, uh, and then get a lot of video that makes me look like I'm not just an info guy. Cuz you look like a scammer, right, in my niche. You teach me how to make money online. No one trusts you. The moment you start having footage of people in person talking, you suddenly look like a real business. >> Interesting.

>> So I was like that that has a lot of uh value. So I think events as well I think Maybe with AI events will become >> the standout, right? >> Yeah. I don't know. Horoszi does is all events right there's got to be someone in that >> follow him. >> You therefore kind of end up with this ladder of kind of like book on the front end of like low ticket. Obviously you got your content. Yeah. You've got kind of like low mid ticket sash SAS slashinfo and then the high ticket Events. Is that

what you see the kind of space looking like? >> Uh it depends right. So for me the book will then push to the on demand course AI the up the high ticket I'm not thinking about at the moment. >> Okay. >> But it it what you just said makes perfect sense then having that upsell. >> Mhm. >> For me I'm not thinking that far because The high ticket is going to distract me from building the thing I want to focus on. But I think if you could have that like YouTube to it's it's a good

model like especially if you don't want a sales team you need to get people buying cheaper and then send them. >> So but YouTube to low ticket to a higher ticket as long as you've got a system in there and then something really tippy top. But >> is that the agency where it's super high Ticket like done for you? >> That would make sense because again the problem with agencies is often the clients. >> Yeah. >> You shouldn't be working in the first place because they should be using the SAS or the >> Yeah. Yeah.

Like the agencies often fail because they have bad clients. You can't give them the work, right? So if you get we're only work with five people, they Have to pay us 100k a year and then the stakes are higher. They're better people. They've got better systems in place. You can actually help them. That would be a good offer. The problem is you can't build them all at once. You got to do it once at a time. They need to be good. Very hard making one thing good, let alone four. So that's another reason why I

tried it different things. It's like see what you like and that now I can always go back and be like well I Know what I like and an entire ascension funnel so I'll just do those thing but we'll see. >> Okay. And then my other question is kind of very different is talking about YouTuber burnout. Um >> you've been doing this for a long time both of you guys right? Does it get to a point where you just have enough of the you know this stuff and being on camera and having to play to the

algorithm to a certain extent and do you like I know There's people like future channel Chris do or whatever it's called >> they have more of a team and it's kind of you know they're removed from the business. >> Is that the end state or or what are your kind of general thoughts on that? >> It's a good way. I don't know why more people don't. That was always my plan. My first channel was get it to a stage where I have like four or five people presenting sort of think media do and Then um

step away. >> Yeah. >> But I left it when everybody sent it up. I was in the process James who works for me he was going to start coming on to the channel as well. Um that that is a good model. The problem with that is then people build their own personal brands on the back of your content and they leave then your channel dies. There's other issues. AI is going to solve that I think because most people Are going to be up AI avatars presenting. we're not going to be able to tell. So, the

bottleneck of actually filming is going to be gone soon too, right? Um, but otherwise, the burnout side of thing, the problem is I don't think people realize when you have a personal brand, >> when you stop, >> your personal brand stop, stop making money, stop getting views. So, you've got to consistently post. You can once You get to a certain level take your foot off the gas, like I six months off posting, the business still grew, but it ain't going to happen forever. I mean, you know, you'll drop unless you get to very very like

Russell Brunson could probably banish for 3 years, come back and nothing would change cuz he's been around for so long. So, you do have to accept that this is not something where you suddenly have a holiday. If you have a holiday, the two weeks running up to a Holiday, you're doing four weeks of working cuz you've got to get all the content ready for when you're away. So, most of the holidays I've ever had, I've been ill on because I've worked so hard to go on holiday. In fact, I haven't had a holiday for a

long time. But like so so there is that element of it but >> well you also don't have a salailable asset. You're never going to be able to Sell it. >> It's a cash business, right? So I was looking at the other day and I was like >> still good. Still good. >> I thought I've basically just the money I've made in the last few years. It's in my bank. I basically just sold my business, shut it down. That I've just taken the cash and that was my exit. So I got all of my exit

money up front basically. If you look at I just made cash very fast and then stopped. So >> yeah, I think sometimes that's a copout. People are like, "Well, you don't have a business you can sell." Yeah, but you can make a lot of money. >> It's a trade-off in the personal brand world. You can also do it the other way like Alex Becker and create something like Hyros and then >> build an asset like that. But then he's done a very good job of it not actually being reliant on his face >> like >>

whereas I think if my software would still be very reliant on my face. >> So you have to turn it into a big big boy business to get away from that. >> But you could plug it still, right? still that marketing that makes sense that that's the way to do it. But now you got two totally separate businesses. Like Hyros is totally different than what is YouTube. >> Alex Becker could vanish and Hyros keep going, right? So he's he's nailed it. Very very few people do that. I mean Sam Ovens has done it now with

school. >> School. Yeah. >> But otherwise there's not many people in the personal brand space who have done that. >> Yeah. And it's almost like you're investing in a separate business. It's just like you're allocating capital which now that you have some capital, you can throw it at this stuff which makes the building better. I've got one Tactical question to end with. It seems like it can be tough to decide when it comes to your thumbnail and your title how much you want to get the click versus establish credibility and trust. Say you're a lawyer.

>> What do you do? Do you put the red arrow in the guy going guilty and you get all the clicks or do you have a picture of you >> like this and it gets 10 views but it's very trustworthy. Is there a middle Ground? What do you suggest? >> There's a good question. So Legal Eagle who you mentioned earlier, he went for the circle pointing guilty. But Legal Eagle produced made went mass market. So he packaged his content for the mass market. I don't know what he sells, but I feel like if he was

>> sells his leads to other firms, it's just it takes you to a website that spits them across. >> I wouldn't want his leads cuz it's going To be junk most of them, right? Because when you get a mass market audience, the lead quality just tumbles. Yeah. >> So if if I was a lawyer >> and I didn't want a mass market personal brand, I wouldn't be doing that. I'd keep them simpler like five ways to do this, you know? >> But what kind of thumbnail? >> Boring as hell. My thumbnails are so boring. It's

me and text. And this is the thing, right? So, when I was talking Earlier about how when I see YouTube from the top down in all these different niches, ugly thumbnails that look awful work in some niches. So, you'll look at a video like got a million views and it looks like a child is like that. And it's actually because the viewer, so for example, a client of mine helps has a channel that helps people move to France and he's got like a million views on one of these videos. He was like, I hate the

thumbnails. I just keep repeating Because they work. And I was like, well, they work because anyone moving to France doesn't want to see a thumbnail with a bright green blob behind them with someone making a crazy face because this is like a huge decision for their life, right? All they want is the same I want for my accountant. Someone with boring shoes and big thick bottleneck glasses, not someone with a Lambo, right? >> Yeah. >> So that content they look at and go, that's the exact boring thing I want to watch because it looks serious.

So they click on it. So with a lawyer, it's the same. you you will try different styles and I ended up with my current style because it basically got clicks and worked. It's boring as hell. There's nothing creative about. It's ugly, but I was like, well, it keeps working and every time I split test something more creative, it doesn't work >> really. >> Yeah, >> that's interesting. >> So, you find you find the style that works for you and then you repeat that. But if you go mass market clickbaity, you're going to get mass market

clickbait people coming. >> But it's also not binary. It's not either clickbaity or not. There's this big gray area, you know, it's it's >> Well, there's curiosity in this Clickbait. So, the clickbait would be this thing with the circle, right? The old YouTube red circle going around something and it's like all about what the hell is that thing highlighting? >> Yeah. >> And then there's curiosity based, which is what I will do, which is I'll say something like don't sell courses, my thumbnail. >> Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um, and then there's very much just

like The thumbnail repeating the title. >> So, you're you're saying something that is a common commonly held belief that you're saying it's not true. So, it's like an that creates. So the curiosity is the number one reason people click anything. >> Yeah. >> And there's different levels of curiosity. >> Uh so that's how you keep your trust and and credibility while still getting Some. >> So I will I work out how the hell do I clickbait people to click and then how do I write an intro that makes them go this isn't clickbait. That's the

art of YouTube for me. >> I come up with the thumbnail title first and then I'm looking at like what can I say that's going to get them to go I thought I should do that. Right. So it's like >> So it's like don't sell courses. cuz You've been telling me to sell courses the whole time. What the hell is this? I click it and then in the setup I'm like and I'm going to show you why you shouldn't sell courses. >> Then I've got to come up with a compelling argument somewhere in that video.

>> Yeah. >> That tells them to sell courses >> whilst making sure they understand why I told them not to sell courses wasn't Clickbait. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's some gymnastics there. >> It is. That's the art of YouTube. >> Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Yeah. That's interesting. Well, I've got a lot more questions, but I know we're up against the clock. This has been great, man. Appreciate the time. >> It's all right. >> Thank you. No worries.