Insurance [6/7 Series] – Tom Wheelwright & Kim Butler - The WealthAbility Show

this is the wealth ability Show with Tom wheelwright way more money way less taxes welcome to the wealth ability show where we're always discovering how to make way more money and pay way less tax hi this is Tom we are at your host founder and CEO of wealth ability so death and taxes the two most challenging subjects uh for us to ever talk about and yet the two things that frankly are inevitable we are partners with the government whether we like it or not and uh at some point we are likely going to die um it's certainly not a sure thing anymore but it's it's pretty likely so um we're going to talk about life insurance and how what what's the positive side so in tax-free wealth I talked a lot about the positive side of taxes we're going to talk about the positive side of life insurance so and and actually look at some of the benefits and how to use it the right way I have one of my oldest dearest friends Kim Butler who's an expert in this area she's a very recognized expert in the Life Insurance area and uh Kim it is so great to have you on our show I'm going through this course this is chapter six of my book The Win wealth strategy which uh Kim influenced substantially and uh and Kim so if you would just give us a little bit of your background what you do and and your your focus right now well happy too and it's always a joy to talk with you Tom I think we could jabber away for many hours and such a blessing that everybody gets to listen in while we do so yes I have worked with the personal finance Arena since 1988 when I graduated from college started at a bank then went to what would be called a financial planning firm and got involved with life insurance right away had absolutely no clue about it you know this is not anything you learn in college about and the few people that might it's some weird thing that you know some kid around the corner does or your dad's friend had or what have you and yet is my career progressed first through both the Life Insurance Arena and what we would call the typical investment Arena stock spawns mutual funds and then beyond that into the life insurance combined with real estate and every alternative investment known to man and then as careers do I think came back around to truly focus on what I love get rid of all of the other ancillary things and it brings us to this product which is called life insurance thank goodness it is not called Death insurance and we'll talk about that and I've been able to help people in the United States and um even through some contacts in Canada because North America is really the only country that has life insurance exactly like we have it uh England used to I think India has something similar but this is my space I love it I love helping people with it and I love learning all the terms and yes that sounds horribly geekish and boring but hey geek is in so this is this is for those of you listening you've got a tax geek and a life insurance geek and talking about death and taxes so um for for the next 45 minutes or so so um it's but it'll be fun because we Kim and I have had multiple discussions over the years and uh we'll calm discussions not arguments we were just talking about that before that Americans don't like argue because they see it as a negative whereas Europeans actually think that's a positive so it's um but in in any case we will have a discussion about this uh Kim and I have had flat out arguments about it in the past but we'll have discussions now and what I'd like to start with Kim's I want to give everybody a baseline can you can you start with um what is the kind of give the two or three primary functions of of life insurance like I talk about you know the functions of the tax laws raise revenue and produce incentives right those are the two functions of the tax law how would you say what are the functions of life insurance in a very basic way sure so the first function is to replace an asset called a human being that has an economic value just like any insurance is we're narrowing our discussion to mostly life insurance one because that's my expert and two and this is an important distinction it is the only Insurance that's attached to a guaranteed event so you had some fun at the beginning like oh you know maybe we could live forever but pretty much death is guaranteed so that's number one on our list today which is it replaces the economic value of a human being working or not working and we can get into that and then two it takes advantage of Actuarial science and this would be something fun Tom to look up I don't know what was first that Actuarial science which we could all agree that actuarials are the nth degree of Geeks or the science around taxes and accounting but I'm gonna guess it was Actuarial science so it takes advantage of that in a way that is the law of large numbers and is also around a whole bunch of other ancillary tax benefits and other that don't relate to the taxes at all but just relate to the guaranteed so if you would just um for our listeners uh what what is Actuarial science what what is an actuary actually do those two words together right they sound horrid uh actuary is I don't actually even know the actual uh Webster definition but it's around the law of large numbers it's around the science the math if you will of taking a group of a thousand people as an example and using statistics to figure out how many of those thousand are going to die so that's one side of Actuarial science and then the other side of course is how many are going to live and maybe at the very end of our conversation today we can talk about that other side of Actuarial science which is annuities that are the ability to pay an income stream for life and that's how insurance companies make so much money so that's what an actuary does is measuring numerically scientifically deaths per thousand and life and living per thousand so I I heard a great definition of an actuary and an actuary is actually a an accountant who's had a Charisma bypass yeah that's good so that that's my that's my I like to say that just because accountants are known to be boring um okay so now let's Okay so that's the function you know that's the primary function is to replace the economic value I like that okay um any secondary functions yes because that is a very long-term job replacing the economic value sitting and waiting until that economic value that human dies there are two functions that got created in the effort to make that long long long long time of that product that has to sit on the books sustainable and literally acceptable in our society and this did start in Europe and then is now in the U. S early early it's literally one of the very first Financial products that occurred and so this breaks down to the two main types of life insurance that we know of which one of them should be called Death insurance and that's term insurance term insurance plays a huge huge role it is a fabulously amazing product and as many people know it only will pay the death claim if you die in the term of time that your product is for it could be yearly renewable but you still have to renew it or it could be 30-year you die in the 31st year you get nothing so that's the delineation of those functions and then the other side of that of course is the permanent side and we can have some more nuanced discussions about this but this basically means the environment where that death claim is going to occur no matter when it happens could be 31 years out could be a hundred years out and for that product to exist during that long long period of time there has to be living benefits which is why it is called life insurance and that's the cash value component that lets the product stay on the books so long without having to continue to pay for it so basically you're funding the extended term of the insurance when it would otherwise be perhaps uneconomic to continue that insurance if it were term insurance is that fair very well said okay so um so one of the things that uh I I heard years ago from our friend Patrick Donahoe I said so tell me the percentage of and you probably I expect you know this off top of your head the percentage of term life insurance um policies that actually pay out it's one half of one percent one half one percent and the percentage of Whole Life policies that pay out it's 98 or something super high it's actually not a hundred because people do cancel them but it is a very very high percentage so so what's interesting to me about that is you know I have to bring it back to accounting terms right so I look at term insurance as an expense and I look at whole life or permanent life insurance as an asset correct okay because that's something that's actually going to produce income at some point term insurance is Simply an expense that is uh protecting basically it's a protection that's what it is it's like any other insurance okay so um all right so term insurance I think everybody understands term insurance it's pretty simple um when would you use term insurance before we get into the permanent when would you use term insurance every day of the week for almost every human being out there and it's because of that human life value amount so human life value is the definition of the economic dollar figure that is being replaced so quick numerical example if somebody's making a hundred thousand dollars and they're in their 30s then they're probably going to work another 30 years or so their human life value is three million dollars and so they should have term insurance maybe they should also have a life insurance but the fact is that term insurance is a very viable product it's inexpensive you can get qualified for it actually the qualifications the same but you can also numerically monetarily handle it and because of that human life value that fairly large figure for most people term insurance is going to be one small little expense sense that they will be able to pay their family can have the peace of mind they can have that death benefit in place and it may also be doing business jobs like funding by sell agreements and other things like that perfect product for all of that kind of thing literally every human being should have some literally a risk management tool yeah literally you're managing the risk of dying or of somebody else Stein that is important in your life um and we and that's the whole purpose of insurance right is to manage risk um so but let's talk about so let's go into now permanent Insurance because we have lots of different terms in permanent insurance I want to start with the simple one which is whole life um it's a it's a an insurance that is so interesting to me um as to how how it's available what it's used for um why people would have it I have a whole life policy um as you know and um uh and I I've come to find a I have a particular use for it so I'd like you to describe if you would just describe whole life itself and um explain cash surrender value what that means and then explain okay when would you use whole life so whole life is truly the only product and it is a very unique product in the financial realm that should be called permanent because the definition of permanent is absolutely positively going to be there no matter when the event occurs and death in this case permanent so we can get into some nuances of the other types of products that people call permanent that I don't think are permanent but the bottom line is who life has two components one is the death benefit same that we've been talking about the other is the cash value you use the term cash to render value that is the living benefit if you will and today when we're recording this in 2023 there are tons of people on YouTube talking about the cash value of life insurance and that's kind of a new thing it used to be literally an unheard of product it is an asset like the cash value the literal dollar figure is an asset on your balance sheet whether it's on your business balance sheet or your personal balance sheet and it is there to be used while you are living which is why the product is called life insurance and why term insurance should really be called Death insurance and uh let's just get in quickly to interest rates because people are always curious about it it's a very conservative asset grows at about four percent these days that's after the cost of the death benefit after the cost of running the mutual company that might be a fun one to bunny rabbit Trail on and after the cost of commissions for the agent uh it is typically dividend paying and what that means is there's growth on the cash value you have guaranteed growth but you have dividends on top that are not guaranteed but by most Mutual companies in the US have been paid every year for 100 years very boring but very effective and liquid cash value is so so let's let's talk a little bit about why what so so one of the course benefits that is on on life insurance is life insurance proceeds are not taxable right they're not subject to income tax and that would be true whether it's paid out from a whole life policy a permanent life policy or a term life policy that's one of the benefits and that cash value that grows inside which is that just really safe investment yeah tell me why why is the government so the US government because you said not all governments although I do chart I did it do charts and tables on this in chapter uh in chapter six uh right or chapter seven of my book um so um why is what's the public policy behind this why is this so important to the government they would actually give get it's tax-free growth in your in your in your policy um the the death benefits are tax-free why what's the public policy behind this Kim it is to take care of widows and orphans to be very blunt about it because this was in place long before Social Security was in place the insurance industry is State regulated not federally regulated and it is so important to take care of those left behind but it's also important and this is why it's tax-free to identify that it is the replacement of an asset a human being earning a hundred thousand a year is similar to a three million dollar asset and so there's no gain in that transaction if that person dies there is three million dollars that replaces that income and that's why it's tax-free just like our car insurance is tax free if we ever have an accident and it replaces our fifty thousand dollar car excellent so um how many how many insurance companies have failed in the last hundred years do you know that I don't know the exact number but I know that it's a handful like a very very small amount and what what happens when they do fail does they're taken over by other companies and this is why it's so minor because those other companies step in immediately and back up typically it's the other companies that do business in the state and most people most companies do business in all 50 states with a couple exceptions for New York but the companies come in and they take over the guaranteed cash value they take over guaranteed death claims and they take over a guaranteed annuity payments and literally just make sure that those guarantees are absolutely going to be paid without any delay and again that state regulated industry with the state structure of other companies supporting other companies even though failure is very very small in number it literally has left nobody with an unpaid guarantee again death claim annuity payment or guaranteed cash value interesting so so really not that dissimilar from a bank right I mean Banks get taking over um they they don't just fail you have the FDIC to come in you have uh the banking Regulators come in but life insurance is that important so the reason I bring this up is just because I think understanding the safety of this asset um is is so important to understand this is not something um that you're worried about price you're not worried about um you know is it going to be there in the future this is what you as you say it's permanent it's something that will always be there so um let's talk about some of the functions of that we understand the functions the function of the well let's not let's start let's talk about the functions of the death benefit first because I do think that there's some important functions of that death benefit which is not just replacing human life value so for example I'm at a point where I don't need insurance to replace my human life value okay I have other assets to do that um so what do you see as some of the uses and the benefits of that death benefit well it goes to what we were just talking about which is the importance of the permanency and I want to just add a sentence to that last conversation and then answer your question at the same time because they go together and that is that the mutual company so we're talking Guardian Mass Mutual New York Life Northwestern Mutual Lafayette Penn Mutual there's about 20 of them have a 100 percent legal reserve requirement that makes them very different from Banks and so when we pair the death benefit which when we acknowledge that death is a guaranteed event you know it's not something you negotiate like disability you could or could not be disabled or you could or could not be ill your car could or could not be total death is not negotiable when you tie that guaranteed unequivocally clear event to a guaranteed absolutely going to be their payment that enables you to bring those two guarantees into your life in a way that is very beneficial to you while you are living in the easiest way to explain this and I have a little special report that we've prepared for your community that'll be on your show link wherever it is but the easiest way to explain it in one sentence instead of the 20 pages is to think about it like if you were guaranteed to win the lottery when you were age 90. you would live your life in your 60s 70s and 80s very differently than you would if you did not have that guarantee and having the death benefit of the life insurance is very similar to that guaranteed could win the lottery now am going to transition if you have death benefit in place it is like you are going to win the lottery at 90 and it lets you spend your money differently from 70 to 90.

and and honestly um we've talked about this but that's why I have a life insurance policy that is the sole reason is because I I'd like to not worry I want to be able to spend my assets I don't have to want to have to worry about um my kids I don't have to worry about my wife I want to make sure okay they're going to get taken care of but they can get taken care of through the life insurance they don't need my assets to be taken care of and therefore you know debts are paid off um they have assets because debts are paid off and and they can take and and that now I feel comfortable okay what I do with my assets is for me it's because they are absolutely taking care of it and I I have used it that way I use it as a replacement of having to worry about what happens when I die it's really that you know it's that sleep at night factor which is you know what a good CPA is about too is sleep at night right but sleepy night versus IRS versus versus dying so I love that so let's turn to the a life benefit let's turn to that um cash value of that policy and that life benefit can you kind of walk through just the basics of how that cash value can does benefit you during your life what are some options that you can use it for and and how that's important to um really um investing in other types of using it instead of just letting it sit there well I just talked with a client the other day he's an accredited investor wanted to pursue this investment and was told in order to do the investment you have to have 150 000 of liquidity elsewhere pretty common requirement for accredited Investments especially the alternative investment space these days and he forgot that he had the cash view of life insurance so he's kind of looking through his Banks accounts and saying well I'm sort of fully invested oh I have liquidity in my cash value life insurance and that will solve the need for this requirement so that I can go do the investment that I want to do that's a great example of how life insurance cash value didn't get borrowed against it didn't get withdrawn it just sat there doing its boring job of being a good liquid available investment so why do you call it liquid and available can you just kind of walk through what because this is true in all the contracts right um what that availability is yeah you buy contract law have the opportunity to borrow against or withdraw that cash value and the way that I like to think about it is for any emergency or any opportunity so I literally encourage clients think of their cash value as a line item on their balance sheet call it their emergency slash opportunity fund and the first job of all liquid cash and I'm talking liquid like in three to four days is to solve emergencies whatever those emergencies may be personal business you name it and then the second job of liquid cash is just to take advantage of opportunities this could be down payment on a real estate deal it could be a particular business that you want to buy you know fill in the blank it could be you want to take your entire family on a vacation for a few months whatever the opportunity is as a general rule I think we want to think of it in terms of Investments but that cash value that's stored at the Mutual Life Insurance company so let's just get clear real quick Mutual not stock or public and we can come back to that but that is growing that earns dividends can also be borrowed against let's talk about what that means because I think that's important because people think of a 401k and you borrow out right you don't borrow against it's not collateral so we're just talking about using that as collateral but interestingly enough you're using it as collateral with the company that has the collateral right which is the insurance company and they actually will always lend you that money correct and um at whatever the stated interest rate is at the time so that means that you're it's still growing it's still paying those dividends it's still doing that so it's still functioning in its realm um you're not taking it out you're just using it as collateral um just like you would use your home as collateral for a loan um that that's that's really all we're talking about um so okay so I can I can actually use it as collateral at any time it's uh it's it's literally about why um I know you always encourage people do not uh don't take it out um borrow um and and the reason for that I presume is why would you give up that asset correct right so we want to be confident with it and do things that we are certain about so this is not a time to borrow against to speculate at all and one of the things that you address in your book so well is that if you're going to take on debt you better be fairly certain that that business or that real estate deal that you're doing will earn the cash flow to pay that debt back and this is one of the mistakes that I think is out there quite a bit in the YouTube sphere these days is you have people talking about borrowing against the cash value of your life insurance policy and never paying it back and as you stated there is an interest that is charged from the life insurance company it's a fixed rate by the way fixed when you sign your policy never to change they're usually five six percent these days fixed and that interest must be paid to that life insurance company while that loan is on the books you can't be borrowing against it at 60 and expect that to work until you're 90 100 110 120 years old so borrow against it pay it back from the business or the real estate deal that you borrowed against it for use that velocity of money method that you and I talk about so often to keep cash moving and let your real estate help your life insurance help your real estate help your life insurance or you could you know interplay with the business there and get those dollars Bart against paid back guard against paid back over and over and over again so that they're available and ready to be used so so I'm going to add just a little piece of tax here because you talked about the interest that you're paying so unlike like a 401k you're paying interest to your 401k therefore you're actually paying into a non-taxable and so it's not deductible under any circumstance this is different because you're it's just a loan you're not the money that you pay like you said it's going back to the insurance company it's not going into your account you're not paying into your tax credit or tax deferred account instead you're paying into you're paying the insurance company for that loan that money is coming from them it's not coming from your account it's your your just collateral and I want to be really clear on that and so what that means is um under under tax law um whether interest is deductible depends on how you use that money and because you're using that money if if you use that money for business real estate investing then it's tax it's actually deductible as that type of expense so um if you use it in your business it's going to be deductibles business expense if you use it in your real estate investings can be deducted as real estate interest expense and I think that's a very important distinction because it's growing inside tax-free because um it because you haven't taken it out and you're still getting the tax deduction so it's very tax efficient uh borrowing um from that standpoint you you're really if it's let's say it happens to be growing at the same rate um that your pain you're still making money so let's say you're paying five percent and it's growing at five percent well it's growing at five percent tax free which is a a net five percent whereas you may only be paying a net three percent because of the the tax benefit so I I think that's an important Point um now let's kind of if you can let's go I want to start expanding a little bit to other types of so-called permanent life insurance and the one that we hear most of is universal life and what's the distinction between a whole life policy and a universal life policy absolutely the distinction is the way the product is built so whole life been around two to six hundred years depending on what you define as its starting point Universal life's only been around since about the 70s and it was built as a term insurance product and as we stated the beginning of our conversation term insurance Price goes up either every single year or might be level for a period of time then it takes a big jump and then it might be level for another period of time whereas whole life insurance has a fixed premium that never changes it's literally part of its guarantees the term insurance underlying cost Rises and Rises and Rises and Rises and there are cousins of universal life fixed universal life indexed universal life variable universal life fill in a couple other blanks I'm sure they've come up with some other words the bottom line is they all function like term insurance and consequently should not be called permanent oh interesting and um well that's very interesting so so really um you it's it's really like a replacement for the old saying by term invest the difference right because that's really what you're doing you're buying term and investing the difference you're just investing it within the insurance company right and why on Earth would you want to rely on the insurance company to do that work when you could go find your own real estate deal or pick your own stocks or what have you I I never really have understood that although I will admit to you that I used to sell variable universal life and this is how I learned the detriments of it and it is just really clear to me that it's not even in the same court or playing field as whole life it's almost like combining your insurance with a financial planning situation right or a financial advisor where they're going out and they're investing but they're probably you know they're picking an index fund or they're which is what they normally pick I think in a universal policy is an index fund which means that you're subject to the vagaries of the market and they put a some actually insurance on that which is an option which prevents you from losing money so you're not going to lose money but you can make money um yeah please just real quick on that because that is absolutely how it's sold that you can't lose but there may be a zero percent floor for that investment component but you still have insurance costs trading costs all below the zero percent floor so you absolutely can lose money and I've seen it happen you could lose uh one and a half to two percent per year because of all those costs that are below below that zero percent floor so I just really encourage people to be very very careful around the space and one of the biggest recommendations I would make because a lot of people are unclear they think they have whole life but they actually have Universal and you can read some of the terminology if you want and the easiest way to get clear on it is to request from your life insurance company something called an in-force illustration i n f o r c e and if you'll look at that first of all make it evident that the universal life policy no matter how well it does will probably implode that means fall apart from the inside around age 80 85 at the most that's not very old the whole life insurance you'll see in Dows and what that means is it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until age 120 where the cash value equals the death benefit huge distinction there interesting um so so in in your in your mind what why would you do this instead of buying term insurance and invest the difference so you were you know from your standpoint you get a lot more freedom it's a little bit to me like the 401K right so why are you putting in a 401k when you could actually have all the benefits of the 401K it but you had control over yourself and the only reason is that you're not interested in your own investment and and being a participant in that right you don't want to be an active participant in your investing you want somebody else to just handle it I suppose that that could work I'd still rather have you just buy an index fund and then buy term insurance because I'm curious though so I'm curious though so have you I'm sure you have I I'm guessing you have have you looked at over the last 20 30 years comparing whole life to Universal and who and who wins yeah we've looked I mean there's studies like this kind of thing just as in your business that the insurance companies put out and the American college puts out and that my husband with his truth Concepts calculators is able to replicate himself or do himself and we've we've studied it 16 Ways to Sunday and there can be a potential of having more cash value in the index or variable universe life there absolutely can be but when you're talking about death which is a certain guaranteed event do you want anything in the arena of can be when the opposite side is also true which means maybe it doesn't work out interesting okay so um so we understand the tax benefits tax so so far our tax benefits are we have a potential interest deduction when we use it to borrow we have like we would with any other borrowing but we know it's there so it's another thing is it's liquid but it's tax-free liquid because debts not taxable right so when we borrow it out that's when we borrow against that's not taxable and um and then that then when it gets paid out as a death benefit so so let's say that you get to that point and you're saying that the Castrol is growing and the death benefits growing when it's paid out what's what let you die yeah let's pay it out is it the death benefit and the cashender benefit or is the death benefit include that cash or under benefit or what's going on there yeah yeah let me just use a numerical example because the answer to the question is you do get both but you get it paid as a death benefit and that's so important because you want it to be taxed exactly that's the way it's taxed one capital gains tax at that point and so here's what happens if you have a million dollar whole life insurance policy and you start and there's zero cash and a million dollar policy as you build that cash value via your premiums and this is such an important point and that is that premiums build cash value then the death benefit grows and so over time let's say you died fairly early and you had maybe 300 000 of cash value that death benefit would easily be a million for even maybe a million five so it's called a death benefit it's paid as a death benefit and it is the original base face amount which was the million plus the cash value and the numbers are not always exact dollar for dollars sometimes they're a little more sometimes they're a little less sometimes they're a lot more and you get both but it's paid as a death claim with a death benefit that is income tax-free they're very important and of course um there are strategies we can use so that it's not only is it income tax free but it is a state tax free um we call those um islets or irrevocable life insurance trusts and we can actually have our heirs own the policy and therefore um it's not tax them so we we can get literally no tax of course we're not getting deduction it's like a Roth 401k right no deduction on the front end but we pay no tax on the back end and we can actually eliminate the estate taxes well pretty easily um before we before we wrap up I do want you to explain the difference between mutual and stock companies because uh that you've brought it up several times and um I do think it's an important distinction yes so there are mutual companies like I mentioned they're probably about 20 of them the stock companies are publicly held so this is the John hancocks the transamericas the prudentials the metlifes and some of those companies used to be mutual but they are no longer and so those are publicly held companies they do not offer whole life insurance anymore because when they pay a dividend they have to pay their dividends to their stockholders right on the mutual company side when they pay a dividend which they have to do by law when they have a profit that dividend goes only to the policy holders because it's a private company and there are no stockholders so a mutual company is very different than a stock company in the Life Insurance realm and then that additional Nuance of a dividend paying Mutual company because as a quick example there is one company that I'm aware of maybe more so I won't mention the name that does have whole life insurance but doesn't pay any dividends and so you know that's just so so so would it be a fair comparison to a a mutual company uh life insurance company versus a stock company is comparable to a credit union versus a bank right because the credit union is owned by its depositors yeah um it is a mutual type company whereas a bank is owned by its shareholders the only additional important point is that life insurance companies that are mutual and I truly don't know this about stock companies must Reserve dollar for dollar whereas as we know Banks and Credit Unions can reserve seven to ten cents on the dollar the life insurance companies that are mutual are known as 100 legal Reserve companies if they say they have a dollar in reserves they have a dollar got it got it so um in in closing up here Kim would you just give our our listeners two or three um actions that you think they ought to be taking in order to maybe you know look into or figure out what to do from a life insurance standpoint absolutely there are a bunch of places that you can get cheap term insurance on the web ethos ladder are a couple that come to mind please go get a bunch of term insurance like that's just the simplest easiest inexpensive step that you can take and then do understand that there is a difference between cheap term on the web which is fabulous beautiful and you should have lots of it and convertible term insurance which is typically at a mutual company is going to cost a little bit more but is switchable or convertible to whole life so that's a space that people might start to check into and then of course you have direct whole life additionally as mentioned please get an enforce illustration if you have that ancient life insurance policy that's in your file and or you bought one a few years ago and kind of can't remember exactly what it is or what it's doing or your parents bought you one please call the insurance company 800 number ask for an in-force illustration i n f o r c e they will typically email you that PDF I am available to your listeners if somebody really just doesn't understand their PDF called an enforce and they really need help and they don't have an agent they don't know where to go it literally takes me five minutes to figure out what that enforce illustration says so I would be honored to provide that brief guidance and then just learn a little bit about life insurance I like to ask people how they learn best do you want to read do you want to watch do you want to listen or do you want to play a game and we have learning material in all four modalities awesome so um thank you very much Kim and by the way there is an enforce example in the appendix of the win-win wolf strategy so we made sure that we included that so you can go to that if you want to know what that looks like it's in the appendix to win Walt strategy to chapter seven um so with that uh Kim where's the best way to find you prosperitythinkers. com is our website and we have a special email for your community a special link I should say uh prosperitythinkers. com forward slash Tom and there's a special report on there that is called pay down permission and it elaborates on this Arena that is the least talked about space all the YouTubers are talking about using your cash value while you're living and you want to do that and you want to learn how to utilize the death benefit while you're living which is what pay down permission addresses got it thank you very much Kim Butler just remember life insurance is just one of those things it's it's a safe asset it's an it's not all of your assets it is a safe asset it's something to include in when you're thinking about this and it has tremendous tax benefits as we talk about in chapter seven of the win-win Walt strategy and it has great policy benefits as well and I I do I've learned over the years after Kim and I have gone through this I finally figured I finally have a handle on it honestly it took me 30 years but I think I finally got there and I think I think we went through a pretty good illustration of it in the win-win welt strategy I'd really appreciate uh Kim for coming on Kim for what she's doing in the life insurance industry and just remember when you include things like life insurance as a safe asset and you look at these things you're always going to end up making way more money and paying way less tax we'll see you next time to the wealth wealth Show with Tom wheelwright wait to learn more go to wealthability.