Federal Prison Shot Caller Exposes Life Inside The ARYAN BROTHERHOOD

You got a life sentence effectively and you went in at what age? >> I went in when I was 38. >> All right. So, you're cooked. There were [music] so many stabbings. It's like every I'd say three days a week, 4 days a week, you're going to chow and all a sudden the tower's going off, the grenades are coming out and you just turn and [music] there's like two or three guys on a guy or multiple guys Getting down with big ass knives and it's amazing how many times the guy that's going to get it

doesn't know it's coming. I've seen a guy get murdered for $20 bill. The race wars are the gnarliest. Everybody's in it. >> This is [ __ ] Mark, the San Diego surfer bro turned drug kingpin who spent 22 years in federal prison as an alleged member of the Aryan Brotherhood. Mark spent his entire [music] sentence in the highest level USP penitentiies where he Was deeply entrenched in white gang politics. [music] He gives fascinating insight into the strict code of conduct amongst the white prison cars and the grotesque levels of violence that occur when these rules

are broken. The fact that he's here today with me in the free world and not doing life in a supermax prison is a miracle. So get ready. It's part two of his epic story, Mark Brandon aka [ __ ] Mark, right here on the connect with Johnny Mitchell. [music] It's hard to know where to begin after what we just talked about, but you're down now and you got 60. You got a life sentence effectively. And you went in at what age? >> I went in when I was 38. >> All right. So, you're cooked. How

I've spoken to a lot of people on this show that have beat life sentences or went in with life sentences and then they got out on appeal and different things like That, resentences. How confident were you after all of the trickery and the and the the lawb breaking that was done by the government in your case? How confident were you that you could get it overturned and that you could actually end up getting out of prison? That's a good that's a great question and this is what was so frustrating. I knew when they convicted me

the reason I never took a plea first of all they offered me 30 years. That's Not a plea. That's still a lot of time. And that was before they brought the shooting charges on me. So, here's the deal. I I I thought 100% that I would overturn my case based on what the private investigator did, based on them taking my attorneys in a closed hearing and sealing it, everything, spying the camp. I mean, I thought for sure. And even it was so much so that I had spent $550,000 on trial lawyers and appellet lawyers combined,

which was a Lot back in early 2000. And when I was in a case came down called Gonzalez Lopez versus US, for instance, and that's a case, I believe that was a 2005 or six case. Supreme Court ruling said under no circumstances can you ever remove a person's counsel from them, >> right? >> Period. They're paid counsel. You can't. And so one of my appeals lawyers, Roger Hansen, calls, "Oh, we're gonna get you out for sure. For sure." And and I'm Like, "Oh, God. All right, let's go, man. Finally. I'm finally going to get out."

>> They just all my appeals, every appeal that I ever filed against the PI, against, you know, what they did using him, uh, you know, taking the attorneys away from me, they all fell on deaf ears. I mean the the I would get I didn't just do my direct appeal, my 2255, my 2241. I didn't just do it once. My my searchuary for Supreme Court for Appeal. I did them twice because I got re-sentenced in like 05 or six on the Amalene case which simply said that the uh um minimum mandatory sentences I mean the

guy no excuse me it said the guidelines are advisory now not mandatory it used to be mandatory guidelines so I when I went in for that it didn't make any difference like it's the only one I ever really got back in court on because all it said was their advisory and the judge Was like man I gave give you 720 months. That's a deal. You should have got life. So, every appeal I ever filed, every bit of evidence I showed him just was ignored because of who the violence was against, >> right? The prosecutor from

the state of Arizona. >> Yeah. I mean, it was kind of fixed. >> Okay. So, how were you feeling when you went in? Were you feeling that anger and the bitterness that most cats with life Do when they go into the system? Yeah. I mean, I was really bitter about what they got away with to convict me. Like, it was um it's almost a case of first impression. And that's what my lawyer said. We're arguing this case on two cases of first impression, meaning it's there's no case to compare it to. The PI is a

working informant and been a working informant against a ton of other clients. There's a five-part series about it. >> Insane. >> It's not just like I'm crying wolf here. It's all right there. And the second one is you held a closed hearing and fired all my paid attorneys. >> The right to counsel. It's a it's a most fundamental constitutional right. And [clears throat] you know, Janet Npalitano, the one that originally indicted me, gave my case to Billy the Bulldog Rosen, became the governor of Arizona, and then she became the head of Homeland Security. She's probably

one of the top 10 most powerful people in the United States, give or take. And so it's no coincidence that my my my rulings coming back from these various appellet courts were very short and concise, not really very descriptive. The, you know, the opinions weren't laid out like a lot of opinions on appeals are, which is very detailed. Why we did this, why we did that. >> It it felt like it was all still being Covered up. It was all, you know, still business as usual. >> So, while you're waiting to keep fighting your appeal

and keep, you know, pursuing it in higher and higher court, you got to live in the USPS. >> Yeah, it was super violent. I mean, it's like it was uh I began in Atwater in 03. >> Now, it the games didn't even stop there. I got convicted in 03. I was sent to Atwater after being sentenced. Took a While to get placed. November 2003, I landed Atwater Penitentiary. April of of '04, not 6 months later, I'm reindicted in the state for the shooting once again. Now, the state wants a piece of me and I'm taken

back to Maricopa County Jail in Arizona. And for all your viewers, I already know by your expression, there is no bigger scumbag than Sheriff Joe Orio. And there is no harder time than I've been in all the smooths in the shoes in the system. I've Broken records for transfers from shoes. And I can tell you this, Maricopa County was by far the worst most like you think it's warm out here during this heat wave. There was half that jail that they run on swamp coolers. There were cells so hot you'd touch the wall and like

pull your hand off it like you're just sweating and you can't breathe. And they got 72 guys in small units. But then the mistreatment in the morning you get a Ladmo sack, a paper bag with like a Piece of fruit, a bologn sandwich, and a bag of chips. No lunch, none. And then you get dinner, which is donated slop from the community. And he used to brag, Araio did, that he fed the animals in the Humane Society better than he took care of the prisoners. And look, I'm all about that. I I like animals way

more than people, too. But I mean, you know, everybody's watching you do this. It's I mean, I agree with you. I love dogs, you know, and I love all animals. And um you Know, it's just Yeah. I did some hard times. Well, I sat in that jail for two years while they tried to get me to rat back at the guys that testified against me in court, namely the shooters. >> The shooters. >> Yeah. >> And Bob Owens, the prosecu and the the the PI. And when it came down to Bob Owens, I made it

clear. I said, "Look, I'll never snitch on anyone. That dude's a Cop. And if the if they're willing to talk to me about the way he set me up and everything he did illegally, I'd be happy to talk to you." But they never ever would agree to talk about that man because he is what's known as Arizona's dirty little secret for the law enforcement community. And you know, I mean, he's setting me up in my law team. He's open game, you know what I mean? And and I will never sit in the court and testify

against anyone, but if I'm Fighting an appeal, and I'm talking all about this dude, like all my appeals, how can this guy be I mean, my lawyers that did my appeals were like, there's no way you're not going to get out. We've never seen this. And so going back to Maricopa County was nothing but another sweat deal to try to get me to testify against people against the shooter who testified against me in open court. And instead of doing that, I made a scene in that courtroom. I Stood up and and when when I was

there almost two years in the most deplorable conditions and the judge goes, "Hey, well, we had a status conference. How'd it go?" And my lawyer at that time, my fifth lawyer, Roger Hansen, he's he goes, "Well, your honor," I go, "Your honor, I'd like to uh execute alocution. I want to address the court. By law, they have to let you." And I had a good defense. I had a good uh judge. He was a ex-defense attorney. And he goes, "Uh, For sure. We'd like to hear about this." And I said, "Your honor, this is the

deal they want me to do. They want me to snitch out the shooters that snitched me out in federal court, and they want me to talk about other people. And and here's what happens, your honor. I'm doing 60 years already on this case. He goes, and the judge was like, "They don't know any of this. They're just processing people through continuence continuous." He goes, "You are?" And he Looks over and and the prosecutor's like, "Your honor, he can't talk about these things. There's ears in the courtroom." And he's flipping out. The prosecutor, Bob Shots, and

Juan Martinez is there, the one that did the Jodi Arias case. like I have the biggest violent case prosecutors based off violence in the courtroom against me. And he's making a scene. The judge tells basically tells Bob shut say shut up and sit down. I'll find you in contempt. Let Them keep going. And and I just basically told the judge not to be long-winded that I'll get on the stand, put my hand on the Bible. Um and I'll swear to tell the truth and I'll lie like a rug and get everybody off because you know

why, your honor? And he looked at me kind of could see. He was like, "Oh, really?" I said, "And that's not a shot at you, your honor, or your court, but their deal provides that I go deal basically a life sentence in the feds With a rat jacket. And what will happen, your honor, is I'll be in one of them TV rooms with my back to all these guys, and that paperwork will land, and I'll get slaughtered with homemade knives, and it probably won't be a quick death, and I'm not doing it." And the prosecutor

jumps again, your honor. And that guy, Daniel Martin, the guy that testified against me, his his PI was in the courtroom, and I knew it. and he was on the run and he basically went out and Told the guy like, "Hey, keep going. They're trying for you." Like I did everything I could even saving the rats in my case at the end. >> So they ended up dropping the case. >> No, they got so mad that the judge had to [ __ ] stop the court hearings. There was like 13 14 guys with me on

the jury box. You know, in county they take you from all these probably 20. A lot of them knew me and they're like, "Wow, you know, this is Gnarly." He like look at him go, you know, and he goes, you know, I want to take I want to take Mr. Brandon off the chain, put him in a holding cell. I'm going to do all these other cases. I want to see the prosecution and the defense in my chambers as soon as we're done here. And when I went in there, that prosecutor was hot. He was

pissed. And I just looked at him and smiled cuz I have nothing to lose. I have a life sentence. And I [snorts] went in there and we argued back and forth. And the judge goes, "Mr. Man, he told he goes, "Mr. shuts. He goes, "This guy's going to ruin your case. Like, he what? You don't want him here. He's like going cuz he's an ex-defense attorney." And I go, he goes, "Mr. Brandon, what will you take?" And I go, and my lawyer speaks out. "Yeah, well." And then and Bob shuts goes, "Yeah, 15 years." And

I go, "Fuck, you're 15." I go, "You're fired, dude." Cuz my lawyer's going along with it. I go, "You're [ __ ] fired." He goes, "Wow, Mr. M, what will you take?" I go, "Eight years running concurrently with my federal sentence." I have a life sentence, your honor. What's the difference? and I'm knowing I'm going to win this somehow in some appeal. >> And he made them give me that 8 years. I signed that plea and I got out of there after 2 years. >> But you still serve your fed time >> even though you

got even though you the fed time ate up that eight years. It's running concurrent with my state. >> I mean the fed time the state's running concurrent with my federal time. So I just ate it alive. Once I had like another eight years in or six, I finished that. >> Right. But I'm saying you never served time besides Maricopa County. You didn't go to an Arizona state prison. >> No, because that case was adjudicated. I Signed a plea, got the state charges, went back to the feds, and continued doing my 60. And you know, about

6 years later, hey, you've terminated your state case. Cool. Right. And what's what's poetic justice is that once I overturned the shooting in the state and once they gave me that I mean I overturned the shooting in the feds and once they gave me that state plea and I ate that eight years up in my federal time. Once I overturned my federal shooting >> against the prosecutor, I I didn't do a day for that shooting. Not one. >> And that's karma. >> That's right. >> And I'm not, you know, laughing at them, but you know

what? [ __ ] you. you know, that lady was a was a piece of [ __ ] you know, and the thing she did, and I'm going to tell you, years after that, I'm getting letters. There's a book in prison that went around. It's like a biblical thing. It's called Rescue Not Arrested. And that was one of the guys that benefited out of her retiring, being retired. >> And tell tell us who she is for the people didn't see, >> Billy Rosen. And that prosecutor was so harsh, given so much time to people for minuscule

charges, laughing in their family's face when they're crying in the courtroom. She was evil. guys would write me and go, you know, I want to thank you. I had a 15-year plea as soon As I got switched prosecutors when she got retired. When Billy Rosen was off my case, I got a three-year plea. That guy that wrote Rescued and Arrested says the same thing. You can find that book talks all about me, all about my case, and how I saved his life. He was looking at 12 years, gave him two as soon as she got

off the case. And I mean, and who knows how many countless others hadn't written me. I mean, by the way, she got off all those cases cuz my guest Mark tried to Have her killed. Some gangster [ __ ] So, we want to hear about the feds now. Tell us about the bidding. Were you immediately thrown into, you know, gang life or did it kind of is that kind of something that just naturally absorbed you as the years went on? >> [sighs] >> I mean, I don't want to say absorbed because I'm never going to

admit that I'm in any gang. I mean, I've told you on the last show I've been validated as Aryan Brotherhood since 13. Ain't no political ink on me, Brian. You know, that's all I'll say. This is the thing. >> When I first got there in Atwater, there's no there's no disruptive groups allowed at Atwater. There's no MA. There's no Aryan Brotherhood at that time. The Black Gorilla, the BTF wasn't allowed there. They would they were the Three listed be uh disruptive groups. >> So there it would be like whatever white guy, it could be a

skin head, it could just be some guy that's putting a lot of work. There was sack there. There was there's a lot of violent dudes there. >> You know, they they'd elect somebody to run the yard, you know, whatever. And uh but you know I was there and saw a bunch of stuff, saw a bunch of violence, got involved in some violence, but once I got back from my 2-year stay in Maricopa County, like remember I only did four or five months, I immediately put in for a transfer down to Victorville because Atwater is so

in the middle of nowhere, so up north, like it was just in a bad area. Like my wife came to visit me one time and some [ __ ] gang bangers caught up on her. a car full of dudes. There's some blacks, whatever. Probably out of Oakland and and Hey, hey, baby. Come here, man. Come here. Like trying to gorilla pimp her, trying to grab her, Throw her in a car, like they do up there a lot, and turn them into prostitutes and drug them up and tell them they're going to kill their family unless

they walk the street. I mean, it was like that. It was like gnarly. Like, she ran into the hotel, called the front desk, called the cops. They're beating on the door. I mean, I'm like, you're never going to come [ __ ] visit me here ever again. I was [ __ ] insensed. I was like so mad. And look, I mean, for The record, look, there's good black people, there's bad, there's good white, there's I'm not a blanket, like rad just happened to be who tried to do that to her, and that area is prevalent

for that type of [ __ ] >> And so I got moved down to Victorville after another 6 months there on a hardship transfer cuz I was exactly over 500 miles from where my residence was. That's how you get moved. So I moved down to Victorville and now I'm in a Real gnarly like there's like six Aaran brotherhood, five six Mexican mafia, there's 350 400 Serenos, there's like 250, 300 white guys. Like you'll never see a yard stack like this. The Bloods the Crips and I get along with them dudes real good. I got friends

and you know I I get along more with the with the with the with the West Coast sets because they're more rigid and they're more strict about the things you do and don't do in prison. Some of the East Coast stuff like a lot of the DC cases are state cases. They don't have they don't have a state prison that Lorton's closed and and so you will get a lot of people from there with like rape charges and and they're animals, you know. I mean some of them are good people but a lot of them

are running the muck, you know. I mean, like if a rapist comes on a yard with us or or or any of the West Coast sets, black, white, Mexican, I mean, we slaughter that rapist. We Slaughter that child molester. We we put that in. And and so I would like to say that we run a on a good set of morals. And the audience might, oh, well, that's violent. Well, every sex offender should be slaughtered or castrated. There's no helping people like that. And I was a big fan of it. And I'm a big fan

of putting in work on them. And I have. And it's like >> I've heard that same thing about people who've been in Victorville specifically. They always talk about how the West Coast sets were much more rigid politically. >> Oh yeah. It's it's it's it's really it was it was such an eye openener to be there, you know. And at that time there was there was a couple big homies that I really liked. Big Mark Nyquist. He's dead now. He was Aaron Brotherhood been around forever. been through all the brand indictments and stuff and you know

he was murdered when he got out for some Things I heard about can't talk about but but he was a guy that kind of mentored me you know and you know and kind of showed me the ropes and uh you know you get there you put in your work I mean I wasn't even out of my khakis and boots two days hey we need a guy in this unit hit I got it you know cuz I'm now I'm kind of mad you know I know I've got a 60-year sentence I know I haven't won any

of my appeals >> right >> and I'm just like you Oh, I'm going to put it down. And >> can they tell that you're you got brolic? Like you're a big guy already when you went in, but could they tell you like, "Oh, this guy." >> My case is like a gold card. Anyone that goes after a prosecutor and goes after the rats and had a cartel case and and I got the attempted murder in the case for, you know, just destroying this guy in a nightclub. And they're like, "Yeah, I mean, here's who I

am." You know, I mean, look, I mean, the first time I actually put in that knife work, I ain't going to lie, like it's it's different. You know, when you go in a cell, 8 by10, whatever, and you know, each guy has a knife. That's heavy combat. You know, you're in a riot, shit's flying all around you. I mean, I've seen and been involved in some stuff that like it stays with you, you know, but you have to do it. And it's the movie Shot Caller was pretty accurate. Rick Wah did it. It's a good

good movie. >> I was gonna ask you about that. >> It's funny because one of the lieutenants in Kanan right before I got released was like, "Hey, Brandon, you got to watch this movie Shot Caller. That's you." You know, like I was like, "Oh, really?" All right. Well, but it ended up being a good movie. I don't think the killing in the end could have been done like that. Any shoe program. But >> they made it like he had so much pull cuz I mean, you lock a guard in a cage and the whole [

__ ] prison's coming. You know, you know how he does it at the end. But but the rest of the movie was good. It was accurate. It was uh well done, you know. Um >> did Now, you said the second day you had to go into somebody's cell, did you just smash them out? Was it a removal or did you go with a knife? >> I moved on a guy. Um I had a knife on me. I just use hands and and he was asked to show up on the fence line to speak to somebody.

He's avoiding debts. He's staying in a cell. It was kind of gnarly, you know. It was that I didn't put the knife work in that day, but I had it with me. and, you know, just whipped him off the bunk and just, you know, stomped on him and submitted him out and just said, "Hey, man, you got to go out or we're going to we're going to Take this to another level." And he came out and and they were impressed, you know, cuz he wasn't a small guy. And um I went in with someone. His

Sy just stayed on the top bunk. It it's gnarly cuz you go in a cell and the guy's like like we didn't even let people sleep in the daytime ever. So I went in there really early right after breakfast and this dude is he's in the bed without his shoes on. So you got caught, man. You know, it was >> horrible. >> Yeah. And I knew where he kept his knife, so we immediately grabbed it. It was right in the rail of his bed. First thing I did, rolled up and then went in. But but

after that, it's like, you know, I you'd have altercations like it'd be amazing how some guys would like call you out now, do something like a first person. I played a lot of sports. I played basketball, handball, you know, Softball. I'm I'm a good athlete. I'm I'm good at all sports like and it was it was uh you get in a lot of situations when you're playing ball and that's where I've a lot of my stuff's happened and in the unit you know like it'll you'll carry it in and people like yeah man like if

the dude calls you a punk or a [ __ ] you know it's like you're you're picking up a knife and the first time it happened you know it was pretty gnarly it was kind of like a guy who was gang Affiliated I wasn't >> what was it over >> television And >> yeah, he thought he was just going to come in and change the TV and, you know, and and but back then you could go on a cell, handle your business. And the big homie at that time when you would go in there and

and this guy was leaking good, you know, we went in with knives and I I was able to really secure his first shot and get on him. So I had limited damage, Forearm shot, and um but [clears throat] he had massive damage and and so they run a bunch of guys through the room. That's the trick. One guy would go in, check on him. I went in first, then obviously when I came out, he's already in there bleeding, and next guy would go in, another guy. So now you got three guys going in and out

of there besides me. And and there's plausible doubt. And every one of them held their mug. I Don't know. I didn't see that. I don't know what the And they and the cops just kind of let us do it. It was so violent there. And it was almost But there was a reason the administration was letting it happen. >> The the AW got indicted. the captain uh Holland checkek born really >> and these guys were indicted for letting us do their thing like they've handfed us sex offenders and which is a beautiful thing all props

to them like >> can you can you go into any detail about that >> um >> like how would they let sex offenders ever get close to being inside of Victorville >> because when a guy has a case where he's raping his 10-year-old daughter Kenneth Freeman's one of them and it's the highest filmed volume on the internet and he's raping his 10-year-old y old daughter while his wife is watching it And filming it and and he's an ex- cop and I called he was a cop the minute he walked in and big healthy dude and

and then when he went to his tough guy talk of the lieutenants's office captain all them they this is what they do this how they rock him to sleep and and all props to them I wasn't in the office I don't know they did it but I know they did it hey man you got a [ __ ] gnarly case you know that's not a cool case just but you know if you don't want to get Transferred you can walk the line just don't talk about your case just tell them you got a gun case

like knowing we're going to run him immediately. We run everybody immediately. You come in our unit if I got the unit or whoever has it or the yard. You're a white boy. Give me your paperwork. And we're running you good. We have websites that can find everything out down to your juvie record. >> Do you just have somebody on the Outside? You give them a call and say, "Hey, >> there's tricks." Yeah, there's other tricks that are way smoother than that. >> Yeah. >> You know, somebody on the inside perhaps >> we just got some

tricks. I mean, there's one I'd love to give up. It was easy the way I did him and I actually was the one that did him and found out. So, it's easy. >> How long does it take to run somebody? >> [ __ ] As long as the mail goes, >> you just got to have your codes and everything. >> It's simple stuff. >> So, a week. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, you ran this guy Kenneth Freeman. I can't believe I've never heard of that case. It's so >> child sex rapist. You can find

him all over the place. Kylie Freeman, his Daughter. He raped her. X Cop >> and filmed it >> and he lived in Thailand, the creep show capital of the world. Yeah. He's a scumbag. He >> Were you Were you the first person to find out who he was? >> Yeah. >> What did that feel like? >> So rewarding. >> No, there's been a bunch. I mean, him I'd like to name because, you know, Kylie, if you ever see these interviews, I'm so sorry for what happened to you. You know, >> I don't need a laugh,

by the way. like like what these people do to children. It's especially since I lost my only son. Like I'm a real advocate, you know, and that sucks, too. You know, I got a felony and or a few. And some of my stuff is violent. But you know what? There's no better person. You could leave your children with in your home With a million dollars in cash, a bag of diamonds, and come back in a week and all your money and your diamonds are going to be there, and your kids are going to be happier

than they've ever been with anybody besides their parents. And it's like, man, there's just rules and morals we got to follow in this world. >> Totally. >> And I don't believe sex offenders can be fixed. Um, I know they have the chemical Castration thing. Um, you know, I think they should be taken off with a saw and they should, you know, once they get out, it's like cuz if you leave them with their play toy, they're never going to stop. >> Mhm. >> They're sick. >> And so, you know, but the good thing is doing

the high level time, we don't get that many. like they'll let them slip through because they're they know They're gonna get butchered, right? >> And I can tell you this, that dude ended up living. It was a miracle. And there's a couple others, but I don't want to keep. >> So, what happened to him? >> He got stabbed. He got his brains kicked out. He had about nine knife wounds in him and got his [ __ ] skull smashed. His brains were literally all over the floor. Looked like gray matter. >> And he survived that.

>> Yeah, he's a vegetable. Even better. Yeah, he's in FC he's on USP Tucson now. The the the hideaway yard, >> right? >> Sex offender yard. Now it's changed. Now the feds have changed and it's not changed for the better. It's kind of like in the state you got the 50/50 yards. Now in the feds, like almost every medium, FCI Phoenix, FBI, FCI Phoenix, FCI Sheridan, um, uh, Englewood, Colorado, that's where Jared From Subway went. Like, you've got these guys, these Caucasians. cuz I don't even call them white cuz when you take a yard and

you walk with these dudes and you don't make a move on them, you're [snorts] as bad as they are. And I'm talking about they have to sign a paper now on these mixed yards and the paper says I will not uh I will agree not to assault the sex offenders based on their charges or I will face 5 years under USC blah blah blah the special law they have To protect the sex offenders. And these dudes are just signing the paper and walking around with them, >> you know. And it's like, you know, I had

a cancer scare when I was in the halfway house. And when I was in the halfway house in LA, I was with a good friend of mine, this JJ kid. And uh and I thought I had cancer. I had a 27 lb weight loss. Something went nuts in my body. Never really was determined. You know, we're we're running every test From HIV to cancer to everything. And and when I'm waiting for the results, I told my good friend, he's a youngster from Delmare. I said, "You know what, stud?" I said, "If I if I come

back with this [ __ ] with anything, I mean, I don't [ __ ] punks. I don't know how to get aid." So, I knew I didn't have that, but they have to run everything. And I said, "If it comes back positive, I said, I'm just going to tell you what day to get the hell out of here, and I'm Going to slaughter these six sex offenders that are in there with us." And there were some guys in that I've never had to live anywhere near them. anyone that's ever hit the yard, it was like,

"Everyone's got their hand raised to deal with them. >> Let me get that one." You know, it's like a it's a real badge of honor to get those dudes, you know. >> So, but it wasn't just sex offenders. It was also people that violated, >> rats, >> um dudes that make violations for whatever reason. There's so many reasons it's not even funny. And you're living in such a rigid society now. It's like, you know, it's it's so like it's it's there were so many stabbings in Victorville when I was there. It's like every I'd say

three days a week, four days a week, you're going to chow and all a sudden the tower's going off, the grenades are coming out and you just [snorts] turn and there's like two or three guys on a guy or multiple guys getting down with big ass knives and you know, people are getting hit all the time and you can see it. You can you can feel it when you walk down the sidewalk. And all of a sudden, dudes are lined up against the fence and you immediately know it. You're like, "Oh, someone's going to get

hit." It's in the air and you see cuz everyone, you know, these look lose. They want And also, there's Guys that are there for backup just in case it doesn't go the way it's supposed to go. You could walk through like a tunnel of tension and then you just kind of mosy down the sidewalk and kind of look back, look back. All of a sudden, you [snorts] just hear it. And it's amazing how many times the guy that's going to get it doesn't know it's coming. It's incredible. Like I Yeah, it was kind of naughty.

>> Yeah. And the way we've heard that from A friend of ours who's been on the show, black guy bidded in Victorville, and he said the whites there, >> they would come up to you, right? Maybe the guy who had the yard would come up to all, you know, >> just stay away from this area. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or or you might want to go get your shower. >> Yeah. >> Because on Thursday it's going down and The guy who's getting stabbed is right there. >> Well, doesn't even know it. >> He doesn't even know

it. and and and and and and some guys would do that and say, "We as a whole rule would never notify anybody but the big homie of their set or the one who has the keys very shortly before it goes down." Like we've I've had to walk up to guys like the Serenos, those are my brothers, you know? I mean, I'm really close with them and >> the Mexicans, the islanders, natives, like I'm close to those three sets. Really close, >> you know, and um, you know, I I just get along with them, you know,

and and and we've backed each other up in many, many wars and and so there's times when I've just walked from the our table and leaned at the head of the Sureno's table and said, "Hey, man. You guys, hey, just this something's going to pop here, man. Don't please try to stay a little bit Away and be ready to move, you know, cuz we may be hitting a guy to a table and and and if it starts, I don't want you to think it's coming at you cuz if something goes on in your back, you

turn. >> Like when I got hit right here in the face, they moved on me another set >> because of something one of my friends did at another yard, slaughtered their leader. Right. >> They hit me right in Cananan when the Tables were so close and you literally got to walk sideways and the natives were right behind me and when they moved on me. Uh, it's the only time I've ever been moved on in my career. And it wasn't for something I did. It was payback just cuz I'm West Coast, whatever they say I am.

And one of them wrapped his hat, one of them hit me in the face, and I'm stuck in the table surrounded by guys that I really don't know because I've been disciplined and Sent all the way out there away from any of my bros from the West Coast because we ended the career of one of their SIS rats, you know, that we discovered that I discovered. >> Right. Right. >> Got the case where the guy got decapitated? No, this was just a guy that we had hit over in Lee County. >> Okay. >> And so

they immediately sent me to Cananan, which is almost in New York, and I'm from California, and there's none there's really no bros on the yard. And I don't have a big usually I have a West Coast car. And when I'm moving around, you know, there's a small pack of us. We move like a platoon. But this particular day, I just got there, this guy, you know, made these hollow threats. Oh, we're going to get this dude or the independent car. They're like, "Come on, man. You don't separate Gang members and independent. If a guy's a

good guy, he's a good guy. Most of my friends aren't gang members." And so they they ran up on me with a knife. One of them, actually a street box cutter, and you can see the scar from here to here. It's stuck in my in my jaw. >> The one guy wraps his hand around, start hit me with a box cutter, and the other guy punched me. But I immediately got wrist control on the weapon. >> Cuz if that guy wouldn't have punched me And moved me, he would have slit my throat. I would be

dead because I would have bled out. But it bled like a [ __ ] But but and you don't even feel it. I mean it feels like just, >> you know, >> but I mean I've been in, you know, I've had it I' i've gotten moved on, but but you know, kudos to me. Well, anyway, I secured the weapon and flipped the guy right on the natives table cuz they're right behind me, >> right? >> Boy, were they pissed. They're like, you did that [ __ ] like like that chow hall right there is not

the place to do it cuz they have different races real close. It's the closest chow hall tables anywhere. And you have to use common sense in there. You have to like if you're going to do a hit like and for real for real it was staff day and there was 15 20 people from the regular cos to the wardens in there and you hit me 10 Ft from them. >> Right. Right. So it's like why do that? >> Some would call it a PC move. >> It's kind of a PC. >> But I'm not going

to sit here and throw shade on them. I I'm going give them credit for making a move so bold, you know, because there was a war after that. But yeah. So would you guys do something is you talked about hitting one of your own like in Victorville hitting one of your Own at your table. Are you talking about your day room table? >> No, your child table. >> You would do that at cow. >> Some guys would. Yeah. >> Oh, >> the chow hall people don't know is a very it's it's a crazy place because

when something really jumps there, they're going to shut them doors when it gets to be too big. Well, think about it. There's so many weapons in there. All the oven racks have rods. You can make so like I I became a master of being able to take a a black metal clip, the ones you bind paper with, melt it into a roll-on deodorant or a toothbrush, and you can just saw out bunks. You can, you know, cuz it's, you know, anything that's the hardest steel, you know, steel cuts through iron. But, you know, you can

get through a lot of stuff. And then, and then there's a lot of weapons There. It's it's a dangerous place. Like, unlike the state, there's no catwalks in the Chow Hall. There's no places for them to shoot down on you. If they seal the place up, it's going hard, you know, and and and and it's uh >> What do you mean? What do you mean by that? >> Well, because they have gun they have gun gunwalks in the heavy in the higher level states. I mean, they're over you with a with like well now with

probably An M4 carbine, but back then, you know, with the mini-14s and whatever. And >> they don't have those in the feds >> only on the yard the towers. So they can't stop it if it's at the chow and you want >> they're only going to come in the units with non-lethal anyway. They're going to come in with grenade launchers and you know concussion grenades and bean bags and mace. And >> I don't know why but I've always had a Really good ability to eat mace. I mean I started one of the gnarliest riots in

Lewisburg. They were mistreating us all. And uh me and my Jimmy Hodgej, they would took a a good independent dude named Jimmy uh named uh um Jamie Lee and he had the keys to like his his Virginia guys and a lot of the guys that were not affiliated, you know, but I never wanted the division between the gangs and we're we're all white. Let's just get along, you know. Anyway, they treated him bad And >> they >> the cops, they had taken the razors from us because a lot of the blacks had gone out there

and just literally, I mean, if you've ever seen a guy get sliced by two guys that have razors melted in toothbrushes, their whole face off, their eyes, it's one of the gnarliest things you'll ever see. And they're kind of known for that. >> Yeah. They come in with them razor Blades, man. And they're vicious and they're dangerous. Look, them dudes are dangerous. I'll give them their credit. like but the way they do it. So anyway, they were doing hits in the wreck cages and you're on the smooth program. You're cuffed everywhere you go in level

one and two and then when you graduate you go to three four and you're out of your cuffs but you're still in the hole >> and you get an hour out here and there anyway. So they slice so many people up In the right cases they took the razors and then there's a bunch of tension and we're like [ __ ] you. They're trying to make the white cheese use magic shave. That stuff burns our skin like acid. We're not made for that >> you know and and and so we're all growing beards. You can

use it on your head, but when you put it on your face, it's [ __ ] gnarly. >> And so, everyone was bucking and and and writing grievances and stuff. And this One guy just he called home and he probably shouldn't have. And he said, "Hey, you know, don't come visit me. You know, something's real tense around here." And so, as soon as the cops hear that in the in the recording room, they're like, "They come to get him. Come out of your cell. We're going to talk to you." Okay. Okay. I'll bring my Sy.

No, you're coming alone. And he did what he's supposed to do. He refused. No, I'm not coming alone cuz we don't Talk to the cops by oursel. >> There's some races that do. We don't. Right. >> Um and uh they end up roughing him off, taking him out of there and putting him in a holding cell. And >> and I just looked out the window and yelled to him, "Jamie, Lee, what you where you at?" And he goes, "I'm in the I'm in the in the iron cell. I'm in the I'm in the strip cell,

the metal cell up front, blackboxed." And they're putting his food up on the bunk where he can't even reach it. And >> yeah, >> and so uh I yelled out on the ranch for everyone to board up. Let's show them how we do it, you know. And and I went and about 70 white dudes went with me, not only in that block, but in the one next door. And that place was roasting, man. You couldn't even see. There was so much smoke, it just went hard. >> Okay. And when you say board up, you Mean

>> cover your window, they can come in and get you. >> And I was the first hell they came to. So, you know, I was like packing my [ __ ] And >> but uh it was a good demonstration, you know. >> Yeah. So then the doors pop, the the riot cops go in or the regular screws? >> No. [ __ ] no. These guys are assort SRT. They're coming in with turtle suits, Full body armor, helmets, goggles, mask, air mask, cuz they're flooding you with gas and >> and you know, I say this, you

know, cuz I have my websites and and one of the screws from there, one of the cos got sent me, "Hey, Brandon, what's up? This is so and so, man. Remember I was in Louis?" I do remember him. He goes, "Man, we all respected you, man. That was a hell of a demo you put down that day." you know, like it's cool cuz they Respect it when someone stands up for themselves, you know, like and it was wrong, you know, what they did. But then again, I understand. I mean, like like like where there's rules

in there like don't stash your knives in the laundry room. >> Mhm. >> Well, every always some idiots's going to do it. We didn't have washers and dryers the last eight years I was in. You had to hand wash your clothes or Send it down to laundry and them carts and wash it with these nasty ass dudes that never wash themselves or their clothes. And it's like I don't want my clothes in the same, you know, and it's like now my I got my hands are tore up from just ringing clothes and washing them by

hand and it it's just prison, like I said, integrating the sex offenders. There's a lot of stuff, man, that's changed. >> Um, so the doors pop and then you guys Are all fighting the cops until they take you down. >> They come to your cell, cuff up, cuff up. There's a whole gang of dudes with gas mask. You're refusing to cuff up. So they finally push your port open. You can fight them and push the little trade port, but they're going to get in. They got like a door buster and they got a hose and

they just start flooding your shell with with with, you know, pepper spray and then they [ __ ] hit a Concussion grenade in there and them [ __ ] are gnarly in Lewisburg. Got small cells. Like this scar right here is from the grenade hit me in the arm. I've I've had a bunch of those. Like and you're in there, you get your mattress. It's barbaric. And you you tie a sheet around it and you got a shield and and and but we made them do every cell and it took all day. >> Wow. >>

Like they called the National Guard, you Know, cuz they ran out of [ __ ] to shoot at us. It was it was a good one. But I like to think that that's a you know, that was my thing is I want to do what's good for everybody, >> you know? I want to stand up just like I am out here, you know? I mean, it's like I want to stand up for the underdog. You know, my mission isn't to be captain and save everybody, you know, but I mean, I want to always do what's

right. Yeah. >> You know, and tyranny is gnarly. Tyranny Is evident through the BOP, the mistreatment. Um, >> nothing gets me angrier whether, you know, you're looking at the federal government going to war against the wishes of the people down to the mistreatment of prisoners. Nothing gets me angrier than tyranny. >> Yeah. It's the most intense form of violence, even when it's not done in physical ways. Like the way that you were basically railroaded to prison Through all these illegal >> Oh, yeah. >> acts from the prosecution. Like that's uh >> it's the most anti-American

thing I can think of. >> There's a book about Arizona called Down and Dirty Justice. And it talks about so many corrupt people and many of them were involved in my case. >> Yeah. >> And it's it's, you know, it's it's Brought up but not fixed. Did you ever fight? You mentioned to me off camera that you got down with some cops. >> Would you would you fist fight cops? >> I [clears throat] mean, if they [ __ ] disrespect you. Yeah. I mean, you go hard. I mean, we're fighting them every time they're extracting

us. You're doing everything. You're kicking and elbowing and grabbing their helmets and pulling them in. Like Bumper's done some good demos. The one you have, that's my boy Gary Dawson, man. Shout out. >> Yeah, I alwaysude. Yeah, that's my dude. He's funny. He's He's He's a dangerous one, too. For sure about the business. Yeah. >> Uh but you I I thought you would like I thought cops would if if they were pissed off at you say meet me in the other room. >> In the old days you could do that. In the old days I

would say okay at water there were some gangster cops that would Let you get a fair one to head up. Yeah. No question. And and you know and in Victorville there was but you know once you know region finds out you know oh you guys are doing this and that like it it's completely changed. And here's the messed up thing is like I did 11 years in isolation. I mean sometimes I'd have a Sally, sometimes I wouldn't. I was in the hole a lot, you know, and out of my 22 I did about half of

it locked down. But there's always yard lockdowns now. Like at towards the last couple years of my bid, here's their trick. Oh, we're short of staff. We're going to lock you guys down. Short of staff. And then two guys get off on each other in a cell and 30 cops running the unit. I'm like, they're all in the back watching TV, >> right? eating food, you know, like they just they don't want us out. They split every major penitentiary. They've split in half. Now, you don't even interact with the other side. Therefore, you're Not getting

as much wreck. >> Like, you're not getting as much yard time because it takes so long to to unload each unit one by one on that side, put them all back, wait, and then unload all you. And within the day, anything can happen that causes a lockdown. Like it's in the old days, the guns would go off, the grenades would come out of the tower, the warning shots, and two dudes would be getting down on one dude, stabbing the [ __ ] out Of him on the sidewalk. He's leaking everywhere. Everyone would take a knee,

stay where they're at, >> back up from the incident. They would load the guy off on a gurnie. Business as usual, continue. Now the deuces go off, meaning the sirens. as soon whether you're in the unit or anywhere, the whole prison's locked down. Everyone to theireselves now, now. And it's like another reason like every little way they do it is to just give You less time out of your cell. And and and in the in the hole, which we call the shoe, SHU, special housing unit. They're supposed to give you one hour a day, 5

days a week. I've never been in a hole that ever ever towards the end of my bid ever honored that. And there's a reason that you're supposed to be let out because dudes go crazy. They commit suicide. They, you know, it's it's it's just the mental part of it. You know, you got to be tough, man. Like when I All the whole time I did, I programmed. I got up every morning, got my food, >> you know, went to the table, ate it, >> went to my bed, sat down, digested, read a couple chapters, got

up, did yoga, stretched, >> and worked out. >> Yeah. >> And then get done, shower. Some cells have showers in them. Some you got to shower in the sink till you can get out to the shower. >> And when I'm out here now and I remember back like how much time I did in those small spaces. And look, I got bros that done 33 years like in the whole Tommy Silverstein, legendary killer, white dude, maybe a [ __ ] monster. Killed a cop at at Marian the old supermax. Got out of his cuffs named Officer

Klutz. This guy was like a cop on the green mile that killed the guy's mouse. Piece of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] with the wrong dude, man. And that dude just slaughtered him. But he ended up doing 33 years in the whole. I think Atlanta they built like a dungeon cell when it used to be a USP. And they had flood lights. They had a glass front and flood lights in his face for 5 years. No darkness. >> How do you survive? I mean, >> I don't know, man. The human mind

and body is an amazing thing. Like you learn that. You learn that quick. >> Yeah. >> And starts with the mind. You have to decide. Um I'm either going to break or not. >> Yeah. I read 900 books when I was in there. Lot >> you counted them. >> I'm just estimating. But >> and and I know men that have read more and you know I used to immerse myself in uh historical fiction. The Genghask Khan story was gnarly. Uh you know the Saxon Tales about the Vikings and the Saxons and the you know the

English fighting and you know all those kind of books. the the story of Julius Caesar, you know, the Roman Empire and things like that. And I would immerse myself in books like that of war because they're out in the middle of nowhere and they're on these gnarly like walks, hikes, marches, and they're, you know, in the wilderness Khan, you know, they were really good with with the Hawks, the Falconers, and you know, the the Romans, you know, they marched forever, you know, and >> even the Greeks, you know, like, you know, um 300 the movie

and you know, and and and the Vikings, that's my culture, you know. I'm Irish Norwegian, you know, >> and um you know, it it's just amazing there. And I get seasick. That sucks because I would never have made it out there on a sailboat, but I could sit in the water and surf all day, but [ __ ] I Get on a boat, I'm screwed. But >> but that's how I did it. >> Yeah. Yeah. You seem like you would be good at prison. You're just a dedic you I mean you've kind of always been

this obsessed active person from your early days surfing and getting in fights and >> well I I box I try to avoid fights but every time I was young you know if you go into a club and you got the bag of coke and you got your looks and you're driving a badass car and you're taking The [ __ ] dudes there's haters you know like I never ever ever have I can remember I started a fight >> ever maybe in the water like if someone cuts me off on my home break or but they

started the belly, bro. >> Oh, no. Jump right on them and get them, you know. But I was always kind of an enforcer in the water. That was Surfers are tough, man. >> I'm worried about sharks, dude. I'm not >> I'm not I don't know, man. I've seen Them. I've been bumped into by them. But >> by great whites, well, that's where they >> I mean, I was in Puerto Escandido when I snapped my leash on a 15t day, which is the Mexican pipeline. It's all the way down and Porto's down there near Waka. It's

right before you go into Central America. So, a legendary big way. But long story short, I snapped my board in half and you got You're in the impact zone. I got half my board and a leash on my leg, but the other half's gone. And Now you either go in, but that's there's huge sets. I tried to get out and I didn't. I got on a half a board. I made it out and then I got sucked in a rip current right out in front of the fish factory where they chop up fish guts and

it go I got swept about a half a mile downshore and them [ __ ] were bumping it. I'm talking hammerheads. I don't know what I mean. I saw the hammerheads cuz I was just like, "Oh my god, I'm going to die, man." I'm like, "Fuck." I'm just looking at the sky waiting for that bite. But they got so much other food there. And the sharks, you know, they're they taste way sushi tastes better than humans, you So would you ever be in the hole in the shoe locked the down looking at the ceiling thinking

so far from that moment like when I was in prison I would just like I would think back to the old days when I would be like in Argentina looking at the the Sunrise you know on wherever I was at whatever part of the country I was visiting and now I'm in this this dungeon of a prison in eastern Oregon in the hole looking at the ceiling thinking, "Did that ever really happen? I'm so far. I'm so far away. It It was like a dream." Would you ever like think about those moments in the hole?

Like when you were surfing? >> Yeah. I'd replay a lot of moments, you know, in my life. A lot with my child. >> Yeah. >> Um and a lot with surfing and partying. And you know, I'd remember the the relationships I had with various women I had in my life that I valued, but mostly like, you know, thinking about my parents and my son >> and my wife, you know, the closest people to me, you know, and the times I had and >> um you know, I'm really close to my family. So, you know, >>

um when did you you say you did 11 years in the whole? Was that straight? No, it would be like two here, one here, two here or one here, six months, six months here. >> What did you catch the long shots for? The twoear shots. >> Having too much power, violence, >> right? >> Can you explain that at all? Because in 2013, >> if you have Go ahead. >> Sorry, I suck at interviewing sometimes. >> No, it's me. Go ahead. >> Can you explain that at all? like in 2013 you got validated for being in

the Aryan Brotherhood, >> but I assume leading up to that you had already gained a lot of power and that's why you you got validated. They don't give that >> Well, I mean, you can get validated just cuz you hang out in the circle. I've seen guys get validated just cuz they Unfortunately got seldled up with one of them. So I don't you know again you know but after 13 after that specific murder I mean they had never seen anything like that. Not really. I mean [ __ ] I've seen the natives do some gnarly

ones like but I've I've seen everybody the Mexican everybody's done them but that was particularly gruesome. And what >> murder is that? >> Uh the David Snow murder 13. That was a A validated Aran Brotherhood guy. Um, I hated him, but you know, and I tried to get him like the week before I tried to get him. I actually called him in a bathroom with a bone crusher, a big ass knife, and he refused to come in there with me. And that's a violation. And I called him various words that you should have come at

me with a knife, but he didn't. But >> I'm glad he didn't cuz I wouldn't be here. >> What was his violation? Why did he get hit by >> talk about it? >> Really? It's not even public record. There's a lot of people that I guess it was a personal issue. I can't talk about anything like that. >> Can you describe what the murder was? Cuz you were there in the prison. >> 62 stab wounds allegedly by two different people, but I did the deposition and told them what really Happened. I said it was self-defense

>> and they attacked one guy and I don't know what happened after the cell. >> Where what part of the prison did this happen? a 6A Victorville in a cell in the in the cell house. >> Wow. They ran into a cell. >> I guess that's where they ended up. But I gave a deposition on that. I told them what they needed to hear. >> Mhm. >> And what I believed happened and what Would help those two men to beat their charges, >> right? >> And >> and nobody can say I ever folded. And there's

some people out there and you know who the [ __ ] you are. You [ __ ] folded and you took the bait and you ruined your career doing it >> and you were going to testify against me and a bunch of other people and you never got the [ __ ] chance and now you Got to look in that mirror the rest of your life and hate yourself because you didn't do what you should have done. [clears throat] That's all that matters in the end. That's all that matters. Do you think that if those

two dudes had just held their mud that >> Oh, and they're both going to get out now because see what the is is they wait till you've done a couple decades like I had like these men had >> and you're almost out. You're about to Hit the end of your sentence. They tried that on me with 30 days left. >> And I I looked at him and said, "I guess I'm going to stay in ADX the rest of my life." >> Mhm. And man, I was sick afterwards, but I don't have a choice. And but

they're almost out. You're almost there, and they say, "Okay, cuz the feeling of walking down your date and then you get right to it and it's like, well, their words were, "Hey, Brandon, what are you Going to do the next 20 years of your life?" Meaning, we're going to [ __ ] indict you and give you life. >> First of all, I'm going to live more than 20 years. And secondly, I'm doing it right where the [ __ ] I'm at. I mean, true story, right? I mean, it's like, but these other guys, there's two

in particular that I won't name. It's like, it's so sad what they did. I I was so Close to both of them, too. >> So, they folded. But my question was, do you think the murder would have gone unsolved if they had just kept it solid and not talked? No, it's I mean something that gruesome like they you know I mean there's cameras everywhere. I mean it's >> I don't care you know like there was so much blood evidence like it was like one of the guys came back to my unit. He was in my

unit and he been pled out so I can Talk about it >> and he had changed his clothes and got out of there. >> Right. >> And they even did a census count. They're like oh he's in there sleeping. There's blood from the floor to the ceiling. That dude's shoved under the bunk. He's He's getting a little stiff. And the one guy that he came in the unit with his boots, he's still blood like like it was a good one. >> Wow. >> But, you know, like I said, the week before he was mine, you

know, and I you know, I was making a name for myself and and he bitched up and I'm glad he did cuz I wouldn't be here. Now, when you say you said these some things to him, >> you're Hey [ __ ] hey punk, get in here. >> And so the rules are you have to if you're called a [ __ ] or a punk, you have to go see that person. >> I'm trying to kill you for calling me that. I am. Yeah, I'm definitely stabbing you. Like there's some other sets that are like

ah [ __ ] what you like you know they're not white you know and they play with the word but we don't you know neither does the a lot of other people I'm not going to put anybody on blast but we just have a really rigid we move like a platoon in there man like and people recognize it you know like like there's dangerous [ __ ] in Every car man there's I got friends in every race that I respect. So if you call someone like if we know each other, what if you just call

me a [ __ ] But I didn't have any idea. I'm just >> Oh, like if you're on the yard, okay, if you're on the yard, you're running with the whites. Some guy goes, "Hey, man, you bitch." And and everyone will freeze. >> When's he going to hit him? >> And you don't do anything. Then we're getting you, >> right? >> We're going to crush you. We may not stab you. We're going to crush you. Get rid of you. >> You're going to get ran off. >> Yeah. Yeah. No matter what. >> Yeah. It And

it's weird. It almost sounds juvenile. I'm so glad that life's over, but it's not juvenile. It's the rules. And without no rules, there is no Structure. >> Yeah. >> And without no structure, other people will take advantage of you when it's wartime. >> Yeah. We're up every morning outside your door, shoes on, minute that door opens. Or else. >> And you say there's no sleeping during the day. >> Why is that? Because [snorts] say something pops off in the unit and with Another race and you're in your house sleeping and some white guy's getting dusted

off by by by another race or another car, whatever. And you weren't there like, "Oh, where was he? He's in his bunk. You're next." >> Yeah. It's serious time, you know. But it's been it's been, you know, I like to say, "Oh, I'm tough and it didn't bother me." And but everyone around sees the the mood swings, the PTSD. I'm I'm trying to ask my PO if I can do the the ketamine treatment. >> Yeah. >> You know, ketamine used to be a, you know, it's literally an animal tranquilizer, but they have a new thing

out and it works and it's helping people. And I just want to get it cleared so I don't get a bad drug test because I've read literature on it and it can change. And you know, I have a really bad problem with disrespect. I Have a bad problem road rage. You know, like I I just I don't smoke. And so when something happens on the road, I grab a vape like a flavored vape. One of my youngsters JJ left in my car and I'm like, "Fuck, that guy's an idiot." you know, like like it's it's

tough, you know, because >> you know, from being in that environment, you cannot show weakness. You cannot back down. And I got to come To realize that sometimes it's better to just show discretion, the greater part of valor. Like, I'm going to give my life away for one guy because if I engage, I have to just take it all the way because no, it's an assault. I'm a career criminal at that point. I'm never getting out. So, I might as well just whack him and go and run. And that way there's no witness. >> And

because it's sad because that's kind of the way. And I'm not beating my I'm Just saying this is the reality of it. I'm not going to just submit and go back. >> So, you really lived through a war >> and you did that for years. >> 10 tours of duty. >> 10 tours of duty. >> That's what my dad always says. That he's so cool. He's such a beast. Like he's just like, "Damn, boy. You did like 10 tours of duty, man. That's that's >> Did they when they would come visit you, Did they know

what you were living through >> or did you touch >> some stuff you don't share, you know, you just can't, you know, you everything's cool, you know, like, you know, my son especially, I mean, when he would come there, I just I had the best visits with him and, >> you know, I I when I went in, he was eight, I had full custody at the time, and um he was taken from me when he was 21 to gun violence. Um >> So sorry. >> Yeah. And I was in the hole as always at Big

Sandy Penitentiary. And when I received the news, I was shackled up with double everything, blackbox, and I thought one of my parents had passed. And when they got me in the lieutenant's office, they told me who it was. And I I've not gotten through talking about it on a on a couple. And But I've learned now it's like I'm good, you know? I'm not I'm I'm more stuff that lives within me. But yeah, I do stuff in his honor. And he was a good kid, man. He worked with autistic kids when he was eight. Like,

who does that, you know? Like, he had such a a sense of right. He was didn't even cuss. He was like martial arts, respectful, humble, a really nice kid. His name was Tyler. >> Rest in peace. >> Yeah. I'm >> so sorry. >> Yeah. It was uh And the wrong guy was shot. He the the little deranged shooter was there to shoot uh his cousin. >> What What happened? Or was it over like >> It was over a fist fight where four little Asian kids jumped on his cousin and Tyler ran rounded the corner and

just helped his cousin. He was getting jumped and it was just a fist fight. Nothing crazy. And then four years later on Christmas Eve, they showed up at his Cousin's house to kill him on a gang initiation and Tyler had come back cuz they had raised him. And so he ca, you know, we took care of financial responsibilities, but they raised him and they did a good job and and he lived with his cousins and his aunt and uncle and in Vista and uh they came there that night to shoot his cousin and and when

Tyler walked out, he's like that'll do. And so it's something that I I have nightmares about. something I've, you Know, like you could take a lot of stuff and you can have done a lot of crazy [ __ ] but when someone takes an innocent child that was yours, it's everybody that's lost a child wears it. >> You know, >> I can't even imagine. It makes me almost not want to have kids. >> Yeah. You know, they say love hurts, man. Yeah. That's uh I wanted to have a kid when I got home, you know,

>> so bad. I wanted to carry on my he was the last living boy and but I wanted to carry on our bloodline and >> you know I'm just getting a little old to do that, you know? I don't want to pull a Robert Dairo and have a kid or an Aluccino, have a [ __ ] kid when you're 80, you know? Come on, man. I mean, I'm pretty fit, you know? I mean, >> Dude, you're a young 62. No, I mean, and that's what I'm that's what my marketing thing is now. I've been approached

by The largest provider of uh peptides, weight loss, legal testosterone, all that stuff. I mean, >> as a poster child for what can happen, you know, if you take care of yourself. And I was kind of like this, you know, before, but the peptides really helped me heal a lot of stuff. >> My shoulder, like I have a torn bicep off the bone. Like I've just I've just I'm obsessed with working out like [snorts] six six days a week all the Time. I used to log all my workouts. It was funny. I'd be in the

hole and dudes would be across the hall and they look out and I remember this black dude and I'll do an imitation. Not to be He'd be like, "Damn, that's you, [ __ ] M." I'm in my boxer sweating. What's up? Who's that man? Ricky, man. [ __ ] man. Everywhere I go, you in the hole, man. You working all day, man. He's like I'm just laughing going, "Yeah, but it's just Yeah. Impressive. >> Yeah. He just >> They called you [ __ ] Mark. >> [ __ ] D A Gio. >> Yeah. [ __

] Like an Italian. >> No. [ __ ] as in >> Diego. DGO as in we took the IE out of Diego. Like a set trip. I'm from the coast. >> They're from the IE. But I got bros from everywhere. But >> like such a square. San Diego. Yeah. >> No. Yeah. But Diego, it's just an old Joke. Like [ __ ] is kind of a slang for San Diego. Where you from? I'm from Dgo. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> No, I'm not Italian. >> Okay. Uh, yeah. I mean, you look great and I think you

should have a kid, dude. I think you should do it. I mean, look, >> or meet a girl that has a kid that I can help raise. >> Sure, >> that could happen, too. >> Let it fly, man. >> I just love being in a kid's life in a positive way. I love >> I love uh teaching them things like, you know, how to play a sport or just how to fix something or, you know, and and and I really want to get to the point where I have impact. You know, I have a lot

of stories to tell and I have a lot of positive messages >> for kids and my my credibility is is real. You know, I've been through it and >> look, there's a whole bunch of other Guys been through time like I have, but I mean, it's like it's just crazy with the case, the way it happened, the way I won it, like fighting the law with no lawyers now, winning, and you know, my thirst to go home to see my family and to see my loved ones. Well, just aside from winning your appeal in the

feds, which is very rare to begin with, >> the fact that you never got one of your assaults or your acts of violence in Prison shot over to the US attorney at >> I had three referrals, but when you have a life sentence, pretty much they don't pick them up. I've had FBI referrals. Well, a lot of times they'll, you know, they'll they'll refer them. And if they go, "Well, [ __ ] This guy's got 35 years left and he's and he's 42." You know, they're like, "For what's the point? >> It's just wasting time."

>> But, man, I bet they wish they pulled one of them on me now >> for sure. >> Because I would had to do that after the sentence, >> right? >> Trust me, Bumper Bumpers had some [snorts] some some referrals. Trust me. Yeah. That's my boy, man. Like it's cool because I get to communicate him with him, you know, on the internet and we share stories and stuff. He's just he's different now. Like he really is he's Really grounded. He's >> he's kind of backed away from a lot of the >> you know pretty normal.

>> No, he is, man. And he's and he's and he's uh >> Yeah, he's really come a long ways. I'm proud of him. Yeah, he's one of the guys I can look at online that I know that's kind of visible and I can be like, "Yeah, he's legit." And he'll say the same thing about me. A question about FBI referrals for crimes committed in prison between inmates. Could [snorts] they do they have to refer them when you're down or could they refer them? >> They could refer them later, but there's a statute 5 years to

do it, right? >> Yeah. Like >> it got kind of gnarly like at Bulmont like we always carry knives. We always have them on us like everywhere you go >> on your person. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean it's I mean there might be a few times when you don't have one or you have a floater you have a plexiglass one or you know you can make some gnarly knives out of window >> the plexiglass window those things don't break >> those are just usually for getting somebody off of you not >> no you there's

you can make some I mean we in the back in the day we were making them out of you know pure stainless Steel which doesn't ring in a metal [clears throat] detector >> aluminum you know like there's ones you can make there's various types but me I prefer or, you know, give me a nice piece of iron. >> Yeah. >> Or stainless. >> Yeah. >> You know, I'm not really a a pick guy, but you could take a like I had one that was a spatula and it had this super Gnarly handle on it, you

know, and the spatula handle went into like this highgrade stainless handle. And then I sharpened that thing and it was this and then we melted a handle on it with plastic and and then and you first you wrap this black sticky [ __ ] around you melt this handle on it and it just glues to it. You got this pick. I used to wear that right in my crotch, you know, >> and um but yeah, I mean I've had to Kester a knife. I mean that's not easy. Like maybe it's a short one. You know

you're going to get caught with it. You either get rid of it or you save it. You know what I mean? That [ __ ] that ain't easy. So, you got caught with some knives and sent some whole shots just for carry. >> Oh, yeah. But at Bowmont, if you're under two years and you get caught with one on you, they make you go to court and they're going to give You you can plea out and get an extra 18 months or two years or you can go to court and get three or four years

right before you get out. And man, if you're not carrying a knife all the time, like there's man, you're really risking your life if you're in the game, >> right? like like I was kind of a pawn on the I mean, excuse me, I was kind of not a pawn on the chess table. I was one of the higher pieces. So, if something were to happen and and someone wanted to make A statement, >> you know, like they would come after me >> like you would of anybody in an army, you want to go at

the guy that's ahead of it. >> So, speaking of that, what was the game, the hustle? What were you Were you hustling in there, making money? There's everything to control in there. There's a lot of things you control from card tables to drugs to booze. >> Booze was big, >> man. Back in the day when there was still sugar, at any given time we'd have 30, 40 gallons of pruno in the roof stashed or in the wall or in our cells and you know then and then we'd build you know stills like we get an

iron electric cord to the wall, put it in a bat, put it in a bucket, >> heat up the water, get it boiling, put your booze in there, run a run a plastic tube wherever you could get it >> and run it up into the sink and then you put ice in there and you make pure moonshine and that stuff's worth a lot of money. Like, yeah, you can sell it for $50 a soda bottle, you know? Yeah, there's money in that >> and the profit margin must be insane. >> Yeah, it is. But it's

a hassle. I mean, it's really hard. It's gotten bad now. Like the stash spots that we usually use or, you know, the lights, you know, there's really nowhere you can hide it At the higher level spots. We even would get ingenious and one of my guys was doing work for the you'd be outside on a crew and he dug this underground pit and we had it outside and we just throw some booze in. We had a board over it, throw dirt over it, let it cook. It's got a breather tube, come back and get wasted.

You know, like it it's funny, but now it's it's not it's just way harder. the visiting room. You're not getting drugs in the mails copied at the higher yards Because a lot of people will break down the drugs and spray them on the paper and reconstitute them or just smoke the paper. >> But the bad pandemic that happened in there was that uh synthetic marijuana K2 spice. Yeah. just it was a very dangerous thing to throw into an environment with dangerous people cuz people smoke it and start having hallucinations and you know PCP type [

__ ] you know, and just go nuts and Start sticking people and Yeah. And we had a rule. If you came out and had a quote episode, meaning you smoked some and you got out of control and you made a fool of yourself, we we smashed you out the yard immediately. Like >> yeah, the races, some of them would laugh. Look at dough. Yeah, look at dude swimming across the day room. It's like that ain't funny, >> right? >> It's a bad look for the whole car. >> You say you got into a couple of

wars. >> Can you go into that? >> Just just for the day room gets off, you know, different races. Everyone starts hitting each other. >> Okay. >> You know, >> so this is when the races this is when the rules between the races and the respect break down and it's >> or or gangs, you know, other gangs, you know, or you know, the races the race Wars are the gnarliest. >> Okay. Yeah, that's what kind of what I meant. Everybody's in it. >> What What was it over? What were the ones you were in? What

was that over? >> It could be like in Arizona, I have one where uh a certain dude just, you know, you had rules. There was We're only out so long. There's phone line and one guy gets on the phone, makes a call, he's supposed to hang up, go to the back of The line, he just double clutches the phone and dials again. It was a African-Amean from Chicago and yeah, I'm from Shy Town. I ain't got to listen. Well, bet you listen now. You know what I mean? Like first of all, you disrespect everyone and

then put your face right next to a box that's metal. So you just run up behind him with an open palm and start it out. Let him have it. Split his whole face open and get on him. I don't care how big you are. Like You start out like that. That's the key. Get off first, you know, but but it's, you know, there's so many reasons why it goes. It could be someone's too loud. It could be someone bumped into someone. It could be the smallest things. And people might say, "Oh, that's so juvenile." is

maybe, but it's hella dangerous. [ __ ] Like, you know, >> yeah, dudes will book you. >> I actually understand. >> I've seen a guy get murdered for $20 Bill. >> $20 in stamps. >> No. >> Killed several times because it's [snorts] not the amount of money. It's the fact that you keep walking by me on the sidewalk and not paying me. And now it's like you were my bro when you needed whatever I gave you and now you're like ignoring me and you know and and it's just Was that a white guy? It could.

I've seen it happen in every Race. People just get tired of you. Like with me, like I'm really weird about that. Everyone's all man, you don't want to owe him because I just start gritting. I still do it out here. I grit on stuff. If I hear something that I don't like, it could be anything. It could be something. It could be a dispute with a good friend of mine or whatever. And I feel like he's disrespected me or played me. like I'll stew on it and then about 6 hours I'll Get on the text

and then I'll be like I'm going to come down and talk to you because I feel like you know I need to because you know if I'm your friend I'm never going to do anything shady or sideways with you and I'm always going to be loyal and honorable. I'm not going to try and you know get over on you or [ __ ] your chick or whatever. You know what I mean? I'm always going to be a good guy. >> Yeah. Lending money and borrowing money Can be a dangerous thing in the joint. >> Yeah.

More people get booked over debts than almost anything. And >> when people get booked in there, is it usually within the cars themselves? >> Yeah. You don't see a lot of people moving across the lines. It's usually dealt within the cars. is when it goes across the lines, it's it's definitely like like someone could have a a disagreement, say a white and a black on the yard and they just get into it and They know immediately they can stop it. The administration with gas and non-lethal or lethal, they immediately will go to the unit with

whoever's runs the yard for each specific set that got into it. And then we'll go out and we'll talk about it and either we'll put it to rest or we won't >> or you'll fake like you're putting it to rest and rock them to sleep. That's I've seen people get so rocked to sleep before like thinking they're not going To get hit and it's it's okay, man. Like I understand, you know, >> and then like the old days, you know, like they come up. Oh, hey, we got a guy in the hole and he just

transferred and and he's asking, you know, can he come out? And I and I get so offended by that. Like I cannot say a guy can't come out. That's being a snitch. I turn on the cop. I say, let everybody out. Don't ever ask me that [ __ ] question again. Everyone's good to come out. Like, it Got to the point where it's like, you know, and then there's, oh no, man, that dude's a piece of [ __ ] Well, then then let him come out and act like a man. Be a man yourself. As

a matter of fact, don't snitch on him. >> Let him out. And and that's another like there's so many ways to take it to another level where you're inviting the violence. >> Yeah. >> Did you have to make when you cuz you Had the yard or you had the unit? What is the difference between having the yard and having the unit? >> Units are designated to guys that the guy who has the yard feels has the mindset, the mouse mouthpiece, has the propensity to commit violence um that can actually handle that unit. But whoever has

the yard is the one that really comes down to. But the units need a good rep. Every unit has to have a rep. someone who's level-headed and Someone who's good enough to have dialect with the other people from other races, but yet dangerous enough not to let him get walked over. It has to be. And if you hear of it happening, you got to change out the guy. >> And you may [snorts] not even discipline him. You'd be like, "Hey man, the way you handled that, I don't like it. You know, that was too soft."

>> Or or you're being a tyrant. Look, dude, just chill. >> I'll put you on the next mission. you can get that out of your system, you know, but don't [ __ ] you know, be bulldoging everybody and and a lot of people play favorites, you know, like whenever I'm on a yard and, you know, there's all West Coast dudes, oh [ __ ] Mark's here, you know, yeah, it's going to be better. And I always tell them, yeah, you know, I'm going to lean towards you, but if you [ __ ] up, you know,

you're white, he's white, I don't Care where they're from, you know, we're all white, you know. >> So the the unit rep is like the under boss. >> Yeah. >> He's like the plaza boss. >> Yeah. [laughter] And the guy who's got the yard, well, that's self-explanatory. He's the shot caller. Uh, did you have the yard ever >> many places? >> Was it That must have been >> It's a lot of work. >> High stress. I was going to say >> it's a lot of work. You get tired of it >> cuz you're constant. You're

the one. You can get a yard by being either a particularly dangerous made man from a particular gang or you can get the yard just because the people know that you'll handle it the best. It doesn't have to be a gang member. It could be anybody. I mean, there's look, there's there's a Lot of guys that were smart enough not to join a gang, you know, that are [ __ ] cold killers. Alan Shelby comes to mind from Oregon. one of the most he was in my cell when I got the news that my son

was murdered and I met him and and got along with him and then me and him just about went in a day room with knives and got down with each other and I can tell you this I'm glad I didn't. That dude is skilled. I'm good but that dude is another level and he was like he I'm glad he was my dude, man. He was on my side, you know, and just an amazing martial artist. And I don't mean like dancing around playing kung fu dance. This dude struck so [ __ ] hard and had

so many skills. Hands, feet, elbows, knife fighting. He was gnarly. >> Everyone knew Allan. He got out after 33 years. And I'll be damned if he didn't overdose within 3 months. >> Everybody has an Achilles heel. >> Yeah, >> Allan was cool. >> So, you're delegating. You're making decisions. You're squashing beefs, escalating beefs. >> I can say this. I I save prisons from more violence than I caused cuz I always know like there's a way, you know, because there's going to be a lot of toll, you know? I mean, look, it doesn't mean I'm I

was soft. I mean, I just this is how we're going to fix this. And it was crazy cuz with two months to the Gate before I was getting released, we had a standoff with the blacks and I was front and center and people like, "Man, why don't you just rest, man? Go home. We want you to go home." when this particular guy got some money sent to him from a particular gang member from the other side of the yard. It was $500. And when the money was sent for whatever he was buying, obviously something illicit,

the black dude's response was, "Man, that money went to my chick, man. She just spent it. I can't. You're you're hit." And [clears throat] like And it's like I think it was the South. Dirty South. Yeah. And then and then the word comes to me from another guy from a another gang and you know and and he was just like, "Hey, can you deal with this?" I'm like 60 90 days to going home and we're in a standoff at the middle of the yard and and I'm basically just telling him, "Look, dude." And then when

they see us and it's like when you start Talking and then they bring some dudes and you bring some dudes and everybody sees and everybody now it's uncontrollable. It's like an eruption. Everybody sees the gathering and now there's 30 on 30 and and the conversation's going down and and then now with us with me especially now the Sorenos and the Islanders and the natives are coming around the ones that if specific cars at that time it's usually always going to be the Serenos You know that back me up and cuz you know we we back

them in certain things and you know and Mexican mafia but but you know it's and it's just about to blow up and I'm just like look man I'm 90 days at the gate you know who I am you know what I'm out. This isn't going to go away. I mean, look, now you got 20 of your homeboys here. Why don't you put up 30 bucks and pay this man cuz it's going to [ __ ] go and it's going to go hard and and it's so close. And they end Up taking care of it. But,

I mean, it was I remember and that's when I tried to do everything I could, man, to stay away from stuff. And then, you know, I mean, 5 months to the gate, I mean, I had to do something and almost took it too far. And I remember voices, stop, stop, Mark, stop. You're never going to go home. He's going to die. You know, you know, and and guy has to stay in a cell for a week. I mean, he was that was a Particular one was a younger guy, kind of stout from out of state,

just, you know, said the wrong thing. And I I didn't want to kill him, you know. I actually went south, put my knife on the bunk, and just got busy and and showed him like, "Hey, yeah, I might be at that point 59 and you might be above 30." And I just crushed him. And >> yeah, I don't need a knife with you, sir. >> No, I try to give him every chance. But And that [snorts] was all stemmed from me losing the mouse, man. I had a pet. Um >> this is remarkable. >> This

is where my book starts. Um you know, after five, six years after the death of my son, um I I needed something. I always had little pets and I love showing love to little creatures. And this guy in the chow hall, it's a great chapter I wrote. He comes with a bucket, a little cottage cheese thing With three rats, but I didn't let anyone call them rats. I said, "This is a mouse. Don't call [snorts] them nothing else." So I I I took the three and I made them this badass home out of like a

box that bananas came in and little, you know, put toilet paper rolls together and cut the ends of socks and made them like a habit trail. And I treated these things like, you know, it was like, and I had all written on and I'm single. Nobody's in my house. And I had the box And I wrote on it in big letters. Attention, my pet mouse is in this box. Please do not hurt this creature. Please notify me on shakedowns. They respected that because everybody knew I'd lost my son. So when these three little pets of

mine, you know, they started growing up and their eyes opened. I got them when they had their eyes closed and and it was Turbo, uh, Shamrock, and Little. And so Turbo and Little died. I don't know why. I was Doing like milk and peanut butter. I used to feed him with little droppers and they died. I think Shamrock killed Turbo cuz they were both healthy. And then one day Turbo was dead. And so anyway, Shamrock is my boy, you know, and I and I got him and he's my pet. And and now I've got him

trained, you know, like I sleep on the floor because I'm single cellled and I clean the floor real good and lay my mattress down and and Shamrock's in the box. But see, now He's bigger. He's bigger. His body's like that. And he's I've had him for like eight months now. Set no 6 months. And And he can get out of the box. Like at 10:00 at night, they're nocturnal creatures. He's So I'm letting him out because I'm not going to hear that all night. He's going to get out. And I just hoped I wouldn't step

on him or injure him. Imagine that. You're asleep. So it was so cute. At night, I would fall I I would fall Asleep. I would let him out. I'd block the door with towels and I just let him run run run rampid. He would climb everywhere. I had net bags hanging he could jump on and and and um but every night he would come and and I' I'd have my knee up. He'd want me to put my knee up on the floor and he would run up and down my leg and down to me. But

I'd be dead asleep and he would crawl up on me and he would stick his nose in my nose and wake me up gently. It was the most Beautiful thing. and and he was my pet, but I equated him to my son because I hadn't had any creatures since him that I could say, "This is my pet. I love him and I want to take care of him." And and so anyway, I'd have him in the day room and I'd put him in my pocket. I'd just cruise around. He'd run up around back in my

pocket. And it was funny cuz some of the blacks, they'd be like, "Oh, that's that nasty thing." I said, "Yeah, that's my dude, man." And most people, You know, there's people that'll like it. There's other, you know, there's people that don't, you know, that thing's nasty. He's my pet and I fed him good. >> So anyway, he's grown up and everything's cool and I know the day is going to come when either I'm going to just roll over on him cuz I'm on the floor, >> right? >> I know it's going to happen. I'm set

Myself up for heartache, you know, and and uh so one night I was laying the bunk I throw the mattress first. I clean the floor spotless >> and I throw [clears throat] the mattress down. It's between the bunk and the lockers and there's very little space. So, I'm stepping over and I think he's still in his box because he was a second ago. A little I know he's chewed a hole in the back. And I stepped over the bunk and my foot's right about here and he Runs out and I barefoot and I squish him

and and it just hit me like gnarly. Like I held him in my hands and I just he died in my hands and um that's kind of like it brought everything back, >> right? the kid. >> Yeah. >> On the cement on the pavement screaming, "Help, Dad." You know, >> anyway, so the it dies and I just I lose it. Like it's the first time I lost it Like that. Like since I mean obviously I completely [ __ ] lost it when I lost my kid, but it it was just because I nurtured him and

I he was my little dude, you know, and and when he died I just sat there and cried like a baby. >> Yeah. >> And it was like just because of the relation, the correlation. How did you manage this grief, this loss, and then still go about your daily duties in basically what is like Low inensity warfare on a yard? >> I started helping people, man. I started like donating my time to help people read and you know trying to give myself like let me try to help some other people you know that that I

could feel like a like I'm dealing with a child you know like I have some friends that have kids and >> and some people close to me right now that have kids and I just love to be part of their life and >> and and to teach them things and you know a lot of people can say [ __ ] about me like oh yeah that dude you know he's this he's that whatever but One thing I am is a very humane guy and I'm very loving and I'm very uh you know I don't wear

the the tough guy too hard for the yard exterior all the time. I just I'm I am that. I'm just not I try to show people like man I got a heart like gold, you know? And and that kid the guy that I beat up that I almost Killed it happened like right after that. He picked the worst [ __ ] time to tell me I wasn't going to put MMA on the TV. I'm like, man, you must have [ __ ] Wow. He didn't tell me. He told one of my dudes that told him

>> your mouse had just died. And so you were in a bad way. >> He almost did, too. If they wouldn't have like like if they weren't yelling at me, it was like a tunnel. I could hear it like, "Stop. You're going to Kill him." Cuz the CO had walked out front. So, I was having my time with this guy in the cell. And >> he had to stay in the in the cell for a week just >> about six days. And it was funny cuz after you completely crush someone like I'm the one coming

over go, "Hey man, here I got all this [ __ ] from commissary for you here store. I know you can't eat. You can't come out of the sale." Like like like you took your ass Whooping. You didn't go check in. You didn't tell on me. >> And so whatever. You know what I mean? Like he's one of the few I've ever let stay because rule of thumb, [ __ ] someone up, make sure you get them so good they're gone >> and don't let them stay on the yard because they could just run up

behind you. >> Yeah. But there's got to be some kind of exceptions to rules, right? >> There is. >> There has to be. >> Well, I mean, it's my decision. I'm the one putting my own life in danger. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. So, you parrolled. You You beat your case. Beat your case. You Yeah. I mean, I would call that beating your case. >> Overturned half my conviction. >> You gave him time. You gave more than half your time back. Did you parole out Of a USP? >> Yeah. I wasn't allowed to go

to anywhere but max penitentiies. I was labeled as being in a disruptive group. And when you're in a disruptive group, I don't care if you have one point. Your point system can go up in the 40s. >> Uh you're not going anywhere like >> crazy. >> Yeah. No, I never had a chance to. I did before 13. I had I could have worked my points down, >> right? >> But I wouldn't have made it anyway cuz my morals won't let me get on the line with a sex offender. As soon as you put me there,

I'm going to get on that yard and get one. >> Or I'm just going to tell you, [ __ ] you. I'm not staying. You can transfer me all over the place. I mean, that's kind of a more like discretion is the better part of valor. You know, you really don't want to pick up a case. You're short. Yeah. >> But if a guy comes to the yard and he's walked the line with them sex offenders and he got some dirty UAs and now he's getting transferred. So if like if a guy came in like

in this one instance, a guy came in from from another bus load that came in and he was walking down the tier and I'm like, "What's up, Wood?" And I say, "Come here." He comes to my door, tell him who I am. And I go, "Hey, man. Where'd you Come in from?" Sheridan, Oregon. I'm all right. Yeah, you're down there with my friend Kyle, man. We'll we'll get together when the doors open. And I'm, you know, you that's a that's a yard you sign a paper and go out on. And so there's only one way

you can leave there and that's putting in work on a sex offender and and not getting a bunch of dirty UAS and having getting thrown off the yard because we're not going to tolerate that. You know, we're gonna be Like, "You should have got off and if you didn't, that's what's up." And you know, >> so he's there because he got off though. [snorts] >> Yeah, he came there because he got off on one. So he was good, you know. But there's there's that's the test, you know, like >> So if I had showed up,

this is going to sound like a stupid question, but like I'm really not >> about hustling and gang banging. If I had showed up and I had not gotten off on a sex offender, but I had clean paperwork, what's the punishment going to be? Is it going to be the the ultimate punishment? It's just smashed off the yard. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like it's I mean, but it's it's a it's a tricky thing, man. I've seen disciplines go too far, man. I've seen guys get killed that shouldn't have got killed because come on, man. You

you you kick Someone in the head or, >> you know, everywhere in the cell is sharp. The corners of the bunks, the sink, the toilets, the lockers. I mean, everything. It's really hard. I mean, and disciplines go bad, you know, and you feel bad if they do. But anyway, [snorts] >> can I defend myself if I'm >> Absolutely. Better. Yeah. I mean, we prefer you fight, you know. At least he went out like a a good white boy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [ __ ] No, >> I can take that. All right. So,

I'm a good wood. I just can't I can't mainline. They got >> No, I mean, you got to go back to those kind of yards and cuz that's the only place that that'll take you now. But it's it's up though because the way they do it, they really put people under pressure. But you do have a right to refuse the yard. >> Yeah. I had a friend of mine go to USP Tucson and he's in the shooting. He goes, "Man, I ain't going out here, man. You know who the [ __ ] I am." And

he's a dangerous guy. Youngster got Cam. We don't call him killer cam for nothing. And and he went there and and they, you know, I ain't coming out there. [ __ ] that. I'm not going. I'm not going to ruin my career. And then finally, he goes, "You know what? You want to put me out there? Put me out There." He went out there, went to the day room, picked out the gnarliest mob rat there was there that just snitched on a long ass case. didn't even go for a sex offender and just destroyed this

guy and and and picked up time and it's messed up cuz you set him up. >> Right. Right. >> So, would would [snorts] that be a violation? Like if you've if you're a guy like Cam, you've got you can't put Him around somebody with bad paperwork or he'll deal with >> is when you refuse to go out. >> No, that's not a violation. No, because like I always had I had a a a line, you know, like let a guy at least just be like like like say you do that to a guy. They could

do this to you. If the administration can be real dirty and let's say these guys let's say these guys, they hate you and they're like, "All right, we're going to Transfer him over to this yard cuz we know his reputation and and we're going to make him just rot in the hole." and say the guy's like, "You know what? [ __ ] you. I'm not gonna rock." And he's short. He's under two years. >> And he just, you know, the kind of guy he is, you know, he's not going to sit in that hole forever

before he says, "Go ahead and put me out." It's [ __ ] up cuz you're setting him up. You know, he's going to put in that work, >> right? Or carry a knife to defend himself and then he's under two years. He's at Bulmont and they say, "Oh, go search him." Now he's got another year and a half. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's all kinds. Well, I mean, Bulma, you know, you can always choose to carry a knife or not. It's not like mandatory. There's some people that, you know, they we just do, you know. >>

How many penitentiies were you in? >> Let's see. Started in Atwater, got reindicted, sent to Arizona for the state case, came back, did Victorville. From Victorville, I went to Hazelton. From Hazelton, I went to Hazelton. I went to God damn, it's been a while. Oh, I went to No, Hazelton. And I I went to the Smoo program. From the Smoo program, I went to Big Sandy. From Big Sandy, I went to Lee County. Uh from Lee County, I went to Bowmont. From Bulmont, I went back to Victorville. So, I did eight of them. >> So,

you parrolled from Victorville? >> Oh, no. Kane nine. >> And you parrolled from Victorville? >> Yeah. I had a 5-year tag. I couldn't go there. The FBI said, "Fuck them." You know, don't let them come home. I was of the murder and whatever they thought I was part of. I didn't do that. >> So, you're at the worst of the worst. What was the worst >> in terms of violence and and rigidity and >> uh the way the cops treated us and the and the the violence? Victorville from ' 07 to 13 was the most

violent. Hazelton was like that too. Big Sandy and M man, they were all had their reasons. But Kanan sucked because the cops would flat rough you off there. >> Like they [snorts] put their hands on you and >> beat the [ __ ] out of you. >> They would. Not to me, but I mean they do it to regular guys and then we have to act. They're always pretty careful how they handle certain people, you know. >> Yeah. >> Because they know if you've got any power, you can from the shoe send kites out and

be like, "Hit the cops." >> It's on. >> Yeah. I mean, man, that mean the the Department of Justice came into Victorville right before I left on my second tour there because allegedly they were [ __ ] beating the [ __ ] out of dudes in the back. The cops >> were beating the [ __ ] out of the inmates in the back. They had a Confederate hat, I was told, with dreadlocks from black people on it. And that kind of went over the level. Dudes that they crushed. Now granted, they might have been dick

jacking 205 gunners. Dudes that pull Their [ __ ] out them and whack off on the females. And that's really indigenous to them. Like I've never seen a white guy or a Mexican guy or an islander do it. But, you know, I've never seen any of them any of those guys that I associate with do that. But You know, different people have different cultures, I guess. >> Yeah. >> Probably get a bunch of hate mail for that, but it's the truth. I mean, if you look at if you look at a gunning shot, 99% of

it, it's >> We have black guys who've been in the fence, >> but not the bloods in the cribs in the West Coast. They don't do that. >> Okay? It's East Coast thing. It's a trend from the East Coast, the Dirty South, the Midwest, the DCs. >> And everybody knows what I'm saying is true. So, anyone can throw hate. It's just a numerical fact. >> You won't get any >> statistical fact. You won't get any hate from that. We've had black guys been in the feds who will confirm that. Yeah. So, you know, on this

show, you go look it up. >> No, man. There's some there's some really good dudes, you know, in the system. There's some really good black dudes I've met like >> for sure. >> And then there's the other type. >> You knew Boy George? >> Yeah, I knew him. >> Super interesting. If you don't know who Boy George is, I wish he would get out so he could do my podcast. I learned about this guy from a book I read, No [ __ ] in a sociology class when I was selling weed at the University of

Oregon. And it was about this journalist embedded herself in a Puerto Rican neighborhood in the Bronx starting in like the 1980s. And in like chapter 2, one of these females that she's Documenting starts dating a guy named George Rivera, born George. >> And she described the scope of his heroin operation when he was like 19 years old. >> Really small quantities but massive customers. >> I mean, the guy was making like millions of dollars a week. >> No, for sure. No, he was making a lot of money. >> Wild. Wild. Like had it built like

a Like a whole corporation. >> I was with him in Lewisburg Smoo. I was with him in Bulmont, Texas. Um, yeah, George is all right. You know, I mean, it's like there's an understory to what was going on in prison, like cuz he switched cars and started running, you know, with another Mexican set. I'm not even going to get into details of who it was, >> but it was something that was kind of strange. And I had a really big gambling ticket and when I was in Lewisburg Smoo, I had a huge book. >> I

we I had the West Coast Sports >> and there was a time when I got cracked like every game on the weekend. It was the playoffs. It's really dangerous when you're running four games, two Saturday, Sunday games each day >> and two games each day. And and and I remember I got lit up and I'm like, "Hey, no worries. Pay anybody that can take money on the wire, I'll send your green form or whatever." Right. >> And uh yeah, he started him and hawing. I had a few choice words for him and like you know,

but you know, he good dude, you know, good dude. >> He's done his work like he's put in >> Yeah. I mean, he's been in 27 years probably. I mean, he's been in a long time. >> Longer than that, I think. Yeah. Yeah. He's been in for a while. Yeah. But I mean, Yeah. No, he's he's all right. I mean, I showed you a picture of me and him in the album. I mean, he's all right, you know, but but he's been wanting to get I can't talk about it. >> He's trying to get out.

>> He should He should try that instead of some of the other things he's doing. >> Yeah. I keep hearing he's up, but we've talked to people that were a lot more violent in the drug game at that level That have gotten out. >> No. Yeah. It's all It really depends on what you're doing with your spare time in prison. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I Yeah, I know him. I know him well. >> Yeah. I know pretty much everyone that's, you know, well, I mean, yeah, I've been on a lot of transfers, you know.

>> Yeah. >> [ __ ] yeah, dude. [ __ ] Mark, this was a lot of fun. I mean, fun and also really heartbreaking and sorry about your son and >> Yeah, I appreciate it. >> But I I'm happy for your freedom and I'm sorry what happened to you. I mean, look, you deserve to do some time, no doubt. But, uh, >> I would have signed eight years. >> Yeah. I don't ever I mean Thomas Jefferson His quote was it Thomas Jefferson I would rather a guilty man walk free I would rather a thousand guilty

men walk free than one innocent person do a day you know without their freedom and so the system really did not play fair the system did not play fair with you >> I mean the only thing I would touch on other than what we talked about is that what I've done now I've started this course called Thriving the Impossible. >> Yes. Tell tell >> um it's just it's amazing how many people reach out to me that that hear my story and have lost their children and you know uh I talk to them and I guide

them through what they're going to go through the grieving process, what to expect, etc. Uh it it like I said in the other interview, it's like it's like coughing locust out like the green mile when the guy sucks all the poison, the cancer out of the woman and then he's physically ill after. It's like kind of What it does to me cuz I have to relive the the death of my son and and so you know that course is something I'm proud of that I did and you know and now I'm I'm going to be

um basically a poster boy for you know um enhancement substances that are legal you know like legal peptides legal peptides >> and uh and legal legal testosterone replacement therapy >> and as as well as HRT and even everything up to the Trespatide, the Reitude Try, the weight loss methods, everything that can enhance your health. Um, I'm I'm linking up and by the time this airs, you'll know exactly what the what the call sign is and everything and you're going to run it like you said and and it's just it's a company that I can feel

good about getting people help because health is everything like physical fitness for me anyway is been something that's allowed me the endorphin release that's everything to Keep me going is and and I have a lot of injuries and that stuff's helped me to to maintain my physique and >> I think it helped your sanity in prison. >> Oh, 100%. The endorphin release was mandatory. But but it's it's just science, you know. It's it's modern science. It's legal. It's stuff that I'm proud to get behind. And by the time this airs, everyone's going to see what

it is. And, you know, and and I'm sure they'll they'll they'll realize that >> I've I've used peptides uh based off a past guest who recommended them to me. And I'm going to switch over to your company. The link will be in the description. Uh follow you. Where can they follow you on social media? >> [ __ ] Mark D A G O M A R K 619. >> And because I want them to follow you and then when your book comes out, I want them to go buy your book and I want >> Southern

Enterprise. >> Southern Enterprise. And I want them to reach out to you and you're just you're a good guy to know and you're a good guy and I know you're going to be very successful in the peptide business and and giving back. It's uh it's super cool. So, thank you again. >> Appreciate it. Well said. >> What's that? >> Well said. I like it. >> Hell yeah. [ __ ] Mark, right here on the connect. My name is Johnny [music] Mitchell. Peace out. [music] [music]