Can a Layperson Practice the Actual Dhamma?

this is a question on um practice for Lay people mhm and how should a lay person practice if their goal is nian or at least some stage towards it I presume yeah because you can't attana as a lay person um the suas are pretty clear on that but that doesn't mean you can't practice the words it right so well you would practice in the same way the monks do just on the basis of a greater compromise compromise of a household life but um the practice does not somehow miraculously become different because you can't leave your

home or you can't leave your family or you have a duty towards it and then you can do a different thing towards the same goal of nibana no it's still the same practice so often it can feel like a like a high standard for a late person to achieve like keeping the eight precepts celibate um practice towards um the right view or maybe even non- return all of that's possible all of that was in the suas recorded uh but what also always does what what those sutas would always also say was quite clearly that um

in order for one to practice successfully whether a monk or person he needs to understand the Peril of sensuality the Mind needs to be free from hindrances on the basis of um thorough virtue and sense restraint so then the difference basically was only um it wasn't in the path they were applying themselves to the difference was simply um on uh in the circumstance es they were keeping them back but the practice was the same so if it feels like a high like a tall order um it well it's normal it's going to feel that way

and it's fine to feel that way but it's important to not then try to devalue or lower the threshold oh because just seems so unattainable so give me something simpler no quite the opposite if actually the goal and the threshold remains High even your failure to reach it will constitute more successful practice than successfully practicing towards a lower threshold toward something that's not the beginning of the dharm but you were led to believe it is the good example of that is this like you know it seems to be quite I mean I don't know how

prevalent but but I think there probably quite a few people that uh kind of delusionally believe you know whether through their own doing or because they were LED astray that you can keep the five precepts and practice the dhama as a as a lay person it's like no you look at any suta whenever the Buddha told the five precepts it was just to get better rebirths Heavenly rebirths to enjoy sensuality further uh instructing the spouses you know how to look after each other how to be faithful because they're going to get great sensually reward it

was quite clearly not presented as the Noble eful Path you know the one way only towards purification of being the saana no he was clearly presented to those who don't want to practice who are not interested in practicing so it's like okay well still if you have a degree of virtue on the level of high precepts a degree of honesty uh a degree of U reasoning looking after your family I mean the Buddha was teaching people how to spend their money so that's what mean like it's quite delusional to believe that these things somehow also

lead you to nibana when the context in the sutas was quite clear however Whenever there were lay people quite you know the foremost nand mat the foremost in in janas Lay woman um all the other householders they had many disciples they were all fully established in virtue eight precept so the Perils of sensuality sense restraint all of that and that's how they got where they were and then you also had lay people in the sutas they were soapas or saamis uh but they were not they were living by five preets but that was after after

they got The Right View because they were lucky enough to talk to the Buddha and the Buddha to guide them step by step uh then they went back home and were content with that attainment and then kept the five precepts and remained being a good person but they were clearly not practicing further and when the Buddha didn't instruct for example anapenda you know the famous instruction before he even started talking anything about ad dama to him he was he first obviously the generosity the Merit that you make elevated mind talking about the heavens the good

rebers and then he was talking about the Perils of sensuality the absolute deprivation of sensual desires the the the the bait the Trap the suffering all of that and then he said then he his mind was ready to hear the dam and then he told him D he got a Right View so if today you were told to dhama you're not getting the right view why is that well cuz you're not seeing the depth of the Perils of sensuality and that's why it wasn't taught generally to lay people the D for who knows half of

half of the Buddha's life probably quite a few decades yeah because it says in the S we do not teach this we not teach this no because they would leave like it's incompatible so now obviously as I said the people have all this access to the sutas and so on plus let's not even get into you know the whole idea of you can practice meditation and meditation techniques that somehow lead you to the meat of the practice on the basis of your five precepts or something there's no such suta at all and even Sati patana

as we said before orap Sati was told to Noble disciples or if they were just short of noble disciples it was still taught to the monks at least who were fully ready for that through sense restraint and virtue in parts of in terms of the gradual training so so this whole view that that you can kind of um be a householder keep the five precepts you know do your best in that regard and do your meditation technique and somehow that constitutes your practice for dhama just think about it like if monks who would have given

up a lot more need to do all these other things in terms of the Buddha's instruction you know the detail instruction and and repetitive and constantly having to remind them and and a right sense of urgency they still need to do a lot on the basis of already having done a lot giving up the the household the attachments the bonds all of that but they need to do a lot but then you have somebody who hasn't even given all of that up and needs to do even less for the same practice that's simply irrational even

if you think about it put aside that the to simply don't support that idea just stop and think about it surely it would be other way around surely if somebody would not have given up the big part of abstraction for the holy for the for the goal of the Holy life we need to do then even a lot more just to compensate for that compromise and somebody who would have given it already up and lives already in a higher kind of in a higher environment of sense restraint well they would need they would need to

do the less so the point is if you feel disheartened oh but it's just so much it's fine but don't obscure the fact that it is that's the threshold once you sort of calm down and come to terms with it if you still keep trying towards that which feels too much you are actually still getting closer to it even through your failures so keep the five precepts and then keep the eight precepts every now and then but keep them really unconditionally and don't look for meditation techniques to to compensate for your intentionally chosen uh unsuitable

environment but take responsibility for it and then feel the weight of that choice feel the weight of the compromise and through doing that you are actually on the right track even if you never become a monk you are still practicing more rightly that somebody who would have lowered the threshold just because because the threshold they hear make upsets them it makes them feel bad or it it makes them feel disheartened and they don't want to do anything no the threshold Remains the Same think about if I if I basically if there is a peak of

the mountain you have to climb to it's not negotiable that is the peak and if you don't aim in the direction of that Peak because it's too much and start walking in the opposite direction you're not getting closer to the peak even if you climb other other other mountains it's not the one you should be climbing so the point is to recognize that yeah it feels too high I don't even know I can do it but at least if I don't lower it down just to please myself my ignorant self my aims will be aiming

High where they should and you know when you aim high even when you fail you fail relatively higher than you were before and same same principle in education or in any other field like if you aim for for like a higher goal or a more kind of accurate sort of higher purpose even your failure will be a relative success yeah there's there's the but if I lower the the the the threshold and tell you oh no no just just do this well you're going to aim even lower now you're going to fall even lower than

that and that's the whole point so it's it's not like all this insistence on sens and stuff it's not just to dishearten and oh this is just for the monks no it's for anybody who wants to practice the dharm and this is the beginning of the dama if you read the sutas you will arrive at the very same conclusion you don't have to take my word for it and even like as I said n mat that I mentioned you know she was like anagami and she when she talked about herself she said and she had

a husband and she had a kid before but she said even then since she was was a young girl when she was given to her husband in marriage she was never unfaithful to him even in her thought let alone in the body of speech so you realize that she was already quite a developed human being like how many people today can say that even mentally they don't trans regress they don't have a thought of sensuality so you realize she was beautiful she bought him a kid when he died she immediately became celibate she was simply

not interested in any of that since way before and then when her own son was imprisoned falsely imprisoned falsely accused killed she didn't go and fight the king for Injustice she said her mind remained unchanged and then de put the praise there like oh wow you can purify thoughts in the manifestations as they manifest they're already clear so it's like yeah a lay person can do do that and even back then that was impressive there were monks who couldn't do that so it's like it's not about oh you must become a monk or a nun

it's about you mustn't lower the threshold and then keep trying towards that level and understand that even if you are failing you're failing in regard to the right direction so you are actually going forward maybe not as fast as you would like to or as others would promise you but you are going forward through that repetition of of of failure of the right aim You Are Climbing so some people might say that okay well I I'm not so good with my virtue I keep five pieces every now and then eight pieces every now and then

I fail at it um but I compensate that with meditation technique meditation whatever well you you have basically the whole vuda commentaries the whole Abid dama to blame for that that was a complete invention when they Tred to popularize uh Buddhism for masses I think I told you I think it was a Buddha Goa who said the the visim Maga compiler who said he hopes that his work will inspire people whereby even common householders will speak about meditation on a daily basis because it's a you know it became quite associated with the whole National PR

religion the whole idea of it um and so it's no wonder that virtue had to suffer on account of it the threshold of virtue because that's one thing that that your average householder doesn't want to hear doesn't want to do so if you love with that and present some some more instantaneously gratifying yogic tantric hypnotic meditation techniques then you would get probably quite a few followers in that regard and ever since even the whole like the the Thai tradition Boran Katan and the Thai Forest meditation you look at the history of it it just came

exactly from these epidemic views mixed with Tibetan and Chinese Tantra and and sort of visualization practices and stuff and uh again intention from for popularizing yeah exactly came from the same Source came from the same source and then even people with the and see why why that's so dangerous like even people who would have committed for right reasons to the practice if that's say they arve at thinking that's what the Buddha actually taught they wouldn't look further and they'll be doing this nonsense instead of doing the right thing they were perfectly capable of doing if

they were told so the whole and same in Burma the whole vas movement was told by that minister to the teacher of mahashi like King's minister or something because again he was like he was very bound with the with the Buddhist identity colonial times the pressures and stuff so he was like let's find the suta that can serve as a basis and then created these technique practices which by the way are quite helpful management for people management techniques like any other sort of practices you might do to help like you know relieve the stress yeah

but confusing that for the Buddhist practice it's pretty much confusing basically treating of a random symptom for the illness and then when the symptom disappears you think you cure now while actually your your illness is deteriorating that's why it's the most the most perilous thing to do in that sense you read sutas the instruction to lay people five precepts eight precepts when you can more often better great uh obviously fulfill your other duties but then at the same time reflect reflect on the nature of Enlightenment reflect on the Buddha the DH the S obviously it's

always presented in that way you know through the oral transmission lots of details were lost but you could extrapolate from that and see well what is what is what would be the quality is the properties of of an enlightened mind well it would be obviously discussed with sensuality freedom from any any physical Cravings freedom from conceit so okay so all of these context all of these ideas think about sit down for an hour and instead of watching your belly rising up and down think about the property of being free from conceit and try and apply

it on the basis of your whatever limited virtue limited sensory strength still work in the same direction as I said the path does not magically become different just cuz you can't do this it's still the same practice pick up any other quality same different times different Reflections but invest time in it and then try to apply it so when you end up in situations that provoke your conceit provoke your lust provoke your anger Ah that's the TR training now tame the animal in regard to this within my compromised environment for which I have taken up

responsibility let me so even like that's like and that's why it's you realize like all you can do is say these things basically to people because at least one in 100 when they hear it they will be able to do it and and the reason they were able to do it is cuz they actually heard it they were told they can't have an excuse to say well I was never told because it's it's kind of like the the whole direction of what people like to think the practice is it's not incidental that kind of it

does go with the general flow of of n nature kind of preferences and so on it kind of just tailors to that so even if as I said if even if people were maybe misled somebody told you this is the practice unlighted mind will quite happily leap onto that and proliferate further and defend it and so on and not question it so yes you might have been misled but if you would have heard the other alternative like this and still irrationally chose this without any questioning well now that's your own doing so that's what I

mean all you can do is keep saying it because some people at least when they hear it well they can't just go back to what they were doing before without asking certain questions and if you start asking them you'll see how quickly the whole view will dissolve and how how much it doesn't add up because the sutas are completely unambiguous about it when the Buddha talked to lay people when he was telling how to look after the wives or Kings how to rule the it was nothing to do with freedom from Nana Noble aath and

the DH sorry freedom from from samsara Nana and and and the dhama it was for the Heavenly rebirths for the better life here and now it was because they clearly did want to practice so he would not have wasted the practice instruction that would have been misunderstood and misconstrued to somebody not even willing to hear it and when those lay people did were instructed it was exactly on the same basis as the monks were yeah there's the keep the keep the five precepts you'll go to heaven yeah you'll enjoy cental Pleasures there exactly but then

there's the danger of those essential tases yeah and see there's absolutely nothing wrong with that that's the point that becomes a seriously mistaken and perilous position when for whatever reason that became understood as the practice of the Dharma as well okay and that's just delusional as I said but it's but it's the idea that the virtue is not even the five precepts is not important but the meditation is that is even worse because well yeah it's completely upside down because even if you keep the five precepts and you're aiming for the heavens still you are

you are in a way practicing the good path well you're not drifting away too far away from the starting point you're not practicing the path but as I said before by keeping the five prets which is the Buddha said the bare minimum you at least as I said not too far off so where you do take the precepts or start to practice sense restraint or reflect on these right correct context and so on you are actually close to where things would be starting but if you're not even keeping the five precepts and just doing some

meditation or occasionally keeping the precepts when when you're on the retreat that's as I said you can do whatever you want to manage your suffering and it's it's absolutely fine there's really no problem the problem is when all those absolutely worldly misguided in terms of the Dharma managements are seen as the practice of the Dharma that's the the worst thing you can do really that's even worse than somebody who is making no effort to practice but at least is not obscuring what the practice actually is and when you when you what relegate virtue as being

unimportant that meditation inside meditation experiences is being the core then if you're a monk then or late person it means you know what's the point of being monastic it's absolutely well in a way yeah exactly exactly then anybody if the practice everybody has access to the practice through a meditation technique everything else secondary to it yeah but you know it's obviously it's like the mainstream view most people do it and most people say well but I find it helpful nobody doubts that nobody denies that but you need to really start looking into where the whole

thing came from because you're not going to find it in the sutas and whenever people some say it comes from this sutas it's always quite a quite a leap to to make those connections and then people would sometimes just just accept it that he came from the sutas because he was presented the sutas were presented to them through these meditation techniques and they haven't really looked into them and studied them for themselves but there were there were books written on the whole origins of the like modern genre views and stuff um maybe we can even

link them like a couple of like like full-on Scholastic Books not just somebody expressing The View like like I'm doing now and then quote the sutas which as I said are fairly generic people can interpret them whichever way they want no this was like a like a scholarly research on the basis of other research of other research full on like investigative work where just there's no doubt like even people that practice the the Buddha ghost J method and whatnot that had nothing to do with the Buddhist Jas actually even those Scholars know that that didn't

come from the sutas they just accept and like and and think budos knew what he was talking about um but uh there is absolutely no disagreement that that has come like oh 10 centuries later 6 11 and by that time there was a lot already like three centuries after the Buddha passed away it was already you know by the time those s councils were coming it was already different different T yogic influences and and whatnot so it's just to show you that okay you can do whatever you want but if you want to claim it

to be the dharm and the practice for theing of the suffering and so on you need to go back to the sutas that as I said there is quite a wide consensus the early texts what they were and really study them on their own Merit not like interpret them through your own as I said you know breath massage tantric technique and try to read into it no no just look what it says forget what you know and what's the first thing that come to your mind when you read Anan well the first thing that come

to my mind is he wasn't t to householders the second thing that come to my mind he was taught to people with the right view or with at least fully established virt sense restraint like Beyond any doubt so it's like you want to get in these other subsequent technicalities of Jana of of anapana Sati steps well you got to meet these technicalities first is my life approximating that of a fully established in virtue cacy sense restraint whereby I could say well it does apply to me or no again you could say oh well my teacher

told me he doesn't have to well we not talking about your teacher we talking about the early Buddhist text the sutas that are as I said wildely agreed okay this is the closest to the what bud actually thought and most likely it was from the historical figure that did teach these things do those texts allow you to be a householders with occasional five precept doing higher Sati panas and anapanasati and for Jana not a chance by any stretch and now you have a choice again you could say okay I don't like this I do prefer

my My Le J teacher and I'll follow him that's fine but you were told and there is plenty of evidence to even prove that point Scholastic in investigative works and stuff that those are two different things because I I was I would see sometimes people CL oh well this is the Buddha J and then there is this J this A J is like well no there is J full stop there is no 16 types of J all the subsequent janas are the ones that fail to understand or attain the Buddhist J the J from the

early texts otherwise you wouldn't come up with your own practice of Jan so it's it's simply not optional and if the choice is clear as I said before in other talks you might even surprise yourself you you think now maybe you think oh it's just too much to do all that and once you're clear once you calm down in your initial shock because you know for 20 years you've been doing it this way you might surprise yourself and realize actually I am kind of doing it like this rightly now I don't I don't have actually

problem with the sensor strain as much as I thought I did I could even do it more I could even do it more occasionally I take on the pr let me take it on for longer let me now uh improve like the the restraint and the practice in regard to the the speech the action revolv on speech oh let me now like nand mat purify thoughts in their manifestation without relying on any management technique just as they arise I see through them again she was a lay woman with probably lots of Duties and stuff and

pressures and she did all of that so it's like if as a householder you can become an anagami that's a pretty good deal but but again the practice is the same and that's another thing you could like okay so could you become anagami somebody who is fully utterly completely destroyed the five fetes it's above sensuality or real will while practicing sexual activity like put put everything put all the text aside all the teachings just use Clear reason just pure logic straightforward reflection and see can you do this and get this as a result of that

and see if that's just wishful thinking and a complete kind of as I said um misled belief because it's impossible by any stretch if you just stop and think about it you realize no of course if I want to be Beyond sensuality I have to start emulating that I have to start not giving into it it's like a heroin addict through shooting up drugs genuinely believes if he were to genuinely believe that he will go beyond his addiction through feeding it every single day he will go beyond it and you don't even need to become

a heroin addict to realize that that's not how sensuality works and somehow you do have views of I can just keep the five precepts the best I can and practice for anagami the destruction and I find this secret pleasure hidden in the Jan they will then make me abandon the whole sensuality and never look back again and again you look at the actual sutas and it's it's a very different picture painted there you can't get get the pleasure of renunciation by not by not not rcing yeah so in a way it's actually like I'm just

imagining like if I were uh if I were a household and somebody tells me this it's like well actually that's kind of better I don't have to be relying on the magic of techniques and attainments I had a special experience a what does it mean and stuff that and then depend on someone else's word keep the five precepts keep the eight when you can do it as often as you can uh moderate your engagement and compromise of sensuality and other things and then you have plenty of opportunities for practice people will be provoking you to

say stuff to think stuff and you realize every single day you're served on a plate things that can directly lead to Improvement of your chitt or defilement it but you got to do the work and it's like yeah actually it's quite reasonable if somebody takes on that kind of work even if it's five occasional eight five occasional eight but does all of this does not mask or manage through techniques and and mystical experiences and hypnotic transes yes there is a good chance you could get the r view or at least be like on the level

of a damari and then get the right view at the moment of death or something your mind will be very clean well the mind the mind is actually being worked properly as opposed to just hypnotized distracted enticed with more sensuality to look away from this sensuality no no no you taking it on rightly yes you're not going to be an Arun but being a soop it's you know as would said himself in those suas it's worth being what is it like stuck by 100 Spears every day for 100 years if at the end of that

you to get the soop part it would be worth going through that pain so nothing stopping you really nothing stopping anyone except their wrong views and and mistaken misplaced emphasis on what really the practice is and what's important because although that that's difficult and it's painful a wise person would see that this pain is worth this pain is the practice Yeah is the practice because look at the results would be Clarity of Mind steadiness of heart so to speak y Taming of the animal and as a lay person if you are still attached to your

family and and concerned with your children wife wouldn't it be best if you you had a clean mind clean Behavior Uh non non non- clouded perspective in regard to what's better would that not Inspire your own family wouldn't you be teaching your children the right right way to live if you're beyond ill will beyond the best thing that you should be doing for your family and it's also good in other ways obviously I usually don't talk about that because generally it's for like a wide audience but the Buddha said himself uh offering feeding helping a

virtuous person will be like immeasurable Merit offering feeding helping a soana even more Sak even more anagami even AR so if you yourself are actually the one with develop CH as a householder developed CH developed virtue on the way for the Right View damari sari committing to it rightly anything good your wife kids friends do to you will be multiplied by thousandfold for them in terms of because there's the whole suit that talks about purification of gifts and offerings through virtue of the receiver virtue of The Giver or both and it's like you are practicing

for the benefit animals they do something good for you if you are one with a purifi CH they're going to reap manifold benefit from that if you were not probably not going to last for long so it's it's beneficial one way or the other yeah you are becoming and that's what I mean like and all this is in the Sur you you read this like actually that is perfectly doable because yes many people would have valid reasons you know already have you know a growing family or people that depend on them you know maybe not

as much as Back in the Day in India where you would leave your family means okay they're done but still there is degree of responsibility and involvement and they can't just now it's too late so to speak it's too late to just give it us and become a monk because all of this but it's like okay but it's not too late to internally start walking in the right direction on the basis of that compromised environment take on that pain of Untamed J being faced correctly T it through virtue five precepts they keep you not drifting

away from the practice eight precepts they align you more with the practice the right Reflections even the reflections on your own family see you are your children are your bond what happens to bonds what happens to those who are bonded well make your meditation around that every other day one day think about the The Virtue the value of Enlightenment the value of immovable CH another day think about the paddles of sensuality sure engage with sensuality when you have to as I said in a moderate way but that still doesn't exempt you from thinking how bad

it is think about the danger of the bond think about your children dying before you would your mind remain IM moved like nand Matas did it's like oh you wouldn't so I got to work towards that I and you don't need to abandon children in order to do their work so there's no excuse to not do the work that's my point even if you say I can't become a monk okay still have to do the same work I can't become celebrate because I have duty to his wife okay fine still think those same themes contexts

and contemplations they will keep in but it's going to be unpleasant because obviously you in them and thinking them it's like but that is your training there if you abandon that and become a monk as in that environment and become monk you're going to have different types of unpleasantness to think about but one way or the other it has to come because we all start with an untame chitt we all start with a wild animal that does need to be rained in and then fed these perceptions as the suta says kept in front of it

until it sees for itself