[Music] there is a Frank Castle storyline that is I think deep and Rich and has been begging to be told who is a vigilante who's good who's bad and Frank is one of those incredibly like galvanizing characters I was raised to believe in grace so we we do in episode two he does track down those sort of he encounters the dirty cop basically and there's a great fight scene with the the breathing and everything at the end of it but the the cop has a what looks like a Punisher symbol or variation on that and
as you mentioned Frank castles in this season you have a history with him I do what and I know you can't spoil anything past episode too but what can you tell me about that so yes there that tattoo should be a hint okay there is a Frank Castle storyline that is I think deep and Rich and has been begging to be told it was in one of the comics Frank's appearance is not random Frank's it comes back to your earlier question of who is a vigilante who's good who's bad and Frank is one of those
incredibly like galvanizing characters and Frank comes into our world with a purpose that purpose is executed does it have something to do with these men that we see in that apartment yes because the there is a history in the real world of um that i the icon the iconography of the Punisher symbol being used so how much of that you know we live in such a such polarized times now right like how much of that is a concern to you to to kind of so insert that into the Dr the fiction incredibly important to me
and I I I think it's incredibly important to Marvel and I know it's incredibly important to John and that discussion and that dichotomy and that kind of for lack of a better word the feelings emotions and conversation about that that specific issue is tackled in this season and I think it's tackled really well and I think John in in particular knows how to voice that discussion probably better than anybody okay okay that's enough I love I love that he keeps checking I'm just like CU you're now hitting us with some of the trickier questions that
we got I'm trying not to be too too uncon I'm putting the hatchet so obviously part of um you know tying us to the Netflix show is foggy and Karen but then um foggy dies you know which is heartbreaking and I understand dramatically why you guys do it for sure but can you speak a little bit about that about the decision to do that so it was a decision that was kind of baked in because in the history of the books of that Trio both of them have passed and at the end of the Netflix
show there are three names on a napkin that is the dream that we go off into this world with we pick up that dream and we got to smash it apart and it was done super mindfully and the thing is is that in writers speak this is the inciting incident not just for this entire series but what goes into season 2 it's massive and we needed to give Matt something that broke apart his world inside and outside and in many ways foggy was the conscience foggy was is Jiminy Cricket and what happens when you don't
have that Touchstone so it was cruel in many ways but sometimes story is cruel it's inevitable I think also just on the course of what Matt has gone through and his interactions with all of the various like criminals and villains he's foggy has always been at the center point of that so I feel like it was inevitable for this to happen and if you talk about the Mythos of Daredevil yeah his curse is that his loved ones get caught up in this fight and right yeah and then you also Karen essentially becomes estranged from that
and moves to San Francisco can you talk a little bit about that I will say only as I've said time and time again Karen Page is the heart and soul of this universe and in of this Daredevil mythology and uh Karen's interaction with our story in this season and Beyond is huge and and you know I I can't give too much away but families tend to fracture when a loved one passes and in that fracture they can rebond in ways that are surprising and new and that's kind of what I think we're going for okay
all right I'm glad to hear that for one thing but uh you mentioned that once once foggy's gone it's sort of like that's Matt's North Star in some ways big time exactly so the so then the first thing that he does is he he kills you know it's Dex so he doesn't actually die but he as far as Matt knows he's he's killed Bullseye right and regardless of whether he did or didn't he wanted to right exactly as a laps Catholic the sin is in the the desire as well as the action yeah so then
the uh so obviously that uh affects Matt greatly in terms of now he's no longer D going to be Daredevil but uh how does that just in terms of knowing that you're making a superhero show taking the drama of it out you you still have to have fights and and suit costumes and stuff right so how does how does that work so that was actually the fun part for lack of a better word is that for the first part spoilers I guess for a chunk of this it is Matt holding Daredevil at Bay and then
there is a turning point and then things change and we track that the whole way and what's funny is if you're paying really strict attention the thing same thing's going on with our villain so these two men act actually are Catalyst for each other like they bring out the best and the worst in each other and that's what we tried to track through this so there's still action and that's what's you know if Matt Murdoch's throwing a punch is Matt Murdoch throwing the punch or is Daredevil throwing the punch and I think we did a
really good job or Phil and David McCumber did a really good job in the action of oh that's Daredevil right right yeah he he put away the mask for like a minute and then it's like I got to just can't help there's always people giving him a CH a good excuse though as well and that's the thing is he wants to how much was it a mission for you guys to uh to kind of adhere to some of the of what the Netflix show was while also starting to forge your own ground at the same
time it was absolutely like job won the the idea being you know we're all huge fans of the old show it kind of it set the template but what we wanted to do is take all of what happened to these characters and push it Forward seven years and push you know everybody's older and should be wiser maybe some people are maybe they're not and we wanted to take the world and keep it moving and go the next step so it was it was very calculated both in terms of the look in terms of the storytelling
in terms of the characters for this to be a a continuance plus to use like the Marvel term we now have the ability to tell stories a little differently than then we have more resources we have a bigger pallet and it was the idea of taking that and pushing it Forward seven years and as you know by the the first two episodes the central dilemma and conflict is much larger now oh yeah for sure yeah well uh the interest thing about it now being sort of officially in the MCU is that you have to deal
with uh you know MCU is stuff like magic and uh you know superpowers and the way that the the Netflix shows had that but it like jaredo in particular was you know street level and so what what has that balance been like you know as someone who's been I mean I've been at Marvel now for like 15 years so as someone who loves the comics and understands that every series that we have has its own little space and its own little playground it's kind of how we look at the TV shows too we have such
a cool opportunity to live in the street level a little bit more and we're not ignoring anything else that exists we just don't have the the the the time or the money I think to play with glowy objects as much it's also the funny thing is is we get this question a lot and I've always felt Daredevil was a part of the MCU I'm not approaching the story as if he's not but it's more like we're over here we're we're in Hell's Kitchen we're gritty and he he doesn't fly you so I mean it's that
that thing where the rules are the same in the MCU but we're in a smaller corner of it and we haven't exhausted that corner at all yet like we're we're just starting and what I loved about what I love about this character and about the old show was that this character gets hurt right he's exhausted like just in the fight sequences you him just I need a minute and they hang out against the wall breathing so heavily he's breathing Charlie does it really well so that is kind of I think the the sort of overall
Vibe of our show is you want to showcase the reality of these individuals who happen to wear these masks and the kind of torture that they go through when it they have to when he decides he has to put it away which is a you know very similar to Wilson Fisk and then on top of it the the backdrop of New York I think gives us such a sense of realism and a grounded POV that makes this feel like its own special place that we all recognize and you guys are shooting a lot of it
in New York as well right we are all of it all of it's in New York yeah wow so I think there's a moment in um I think it's episode two which I I feel like you really brought together for me how you are balancing the MCU isness of it with the Daredevil street level stuff which is at one point Matt is talking about white tiger and they're talking to a judge or something and he's like he's like yeah well you know he didn't even have his magical amulet or something and the other lawyer like
kind of rolls his eyes and I was like this is perfect because it's like these things exist and yet like it's not yeah but we now we're talking about that and that's not really what we're fixating on you know so I just I thought that was really fun that's like Justin Justin aon's favorite line yeah amulet yeah like yes it's it's focusing on Humanity as much as we can and then that other stuff is there like that's the fun part of it it's in the toolbox but it's not the toolbox yeah so you mentioned uh
Wilson FIS is back and he's kind of doing something different how much do we think that without giving away what's going to happen but how much do we are we meant to feel in these first you know couple of episodes that he's he actually is trying to be a good guy I think he 100% is trying to be good to New York and how that manifests itself is TBD the thing that I love both about the character and about Vincent dfo's portrayal is you feel the Kingpin lurking behind whatever is going on at all times
and Charlie's doing a similar thing with Daredevil and Matt Murdoch so the question is you know which is the mask which is the real is there a real and I think we're playing that all the way so I always think like when I don't want to answer questions with a question but when you ask like is does he really want to help out New York is he for real absolutely it's like does he love Vanessa absolutely he's he's got a heart I don't quite know what he wants to do with it right well every great
villain thinks he's the hero of the story right so I think that's what makes Kingpin so great is that you believe if you can really get in with him you kind of believe his love you believe his love for vanesse you believe his love for New York and I think that's if you get lost it gets really twisted and you do remember what he said at one point not in this show but in the old one love is a prison love is a prison right yeah right right yeah when you were gone I made this
business bulletproof so what is going on in New York that people are so into Wilson because Wilson's anti- superhero basically right uh and if we go back in MCU history you know the Avengers saved New York and they've saved the world is there something what's the undercurrent that he's tapping into that's making him so popular so in the course of any kind of saving of the city there tends to be a lot of collateral damage there tends to be a lot of for lack of better word vigilante violence and at a time when New York
is looking for leadership is looking for safety is looking for a a return to normaly fisk's argument that these people are making you less safe lands you know and that's what Wilson Fisk has always been really good at he could sell you just about anything and it gets so murky like why does it mean if you wear a mask you're a hero why does it mean that you're doing a good thing and so the line between sort of like who who is allowed to dictate Law and Order I think that's a really I mean say
relevant but also I think that's very real in the Marvel universe is why do people think they can put on a mask and just enact just as however they see fit and some of the people in our story who are putting on masks are not doing Justice you what's what is the difference and I'm not what is the difference between Daredevil and Ben po Dexter you know correct what is the difference between Frank Castle and Muse right and we're we're playing with that right so uh what when you guys I know obviously we it's out
it's been well discussed that this there was a a change in the show during the t period of the strikes in Hollywood and um uh you were brought in for sure U what was the direction you were given at that time from the studio like what did they want to make sure that you were going to achieve with with the show it's funny I never really got a lot the thing that was really cool about the experience was they had seen the show and had time to like think about oh what do we want to
do what do we not want to do what we had you know these strikes and a bunch of time to really sit there and live with it and they called me up and I saw a lot of material and it was really funny we we all got together and I was like here's what I think and it was exactly what they thought there was no Direction there was just more like there was a show in there that I think the show that they had would be fine and dandy there no problem with it but there
was a show in there that wanted to come out right and the show that wanted to come out was very much closer to what the old show was it had a depth of drama and action that was just screaming to be there and it needed a little context to get us there and it needed to set up the world and the relationships to get us there and those were the only kind of there was no direction I guess that sounds there was plenty of guidance but there was no like do this well we knew we
definitely knew we wanted it to connect to the old show like that was when we looked at the material that was a big thing for us was like again like Dario said it was there but we that we wanted to go back and and sort of expand on those story lines and thankfully Dario was super excited about it and gave us a lot of crazy ideas and we're like yes we'll we'll buy that and it was it really was a team when I came in I talked to everyone I literally everybody on the Marvel side
I talked to Charlie I talked to Vincent and they were they're beyond the repositories of these characters so where we wanted to go what we wanted to do how we wanted to illustrate this conflict between Fisk and Murdoch this go round for laab better word was really obvious yeah yeah when you guys were were writing the season getting you know getting the thing ready to go obviously it was before the presidential election that just happened but there there can't you can't help but see parallels between Fisk running for mayor and what's going on in the
world how much of that was in your mind when you guys were prepping and none that's the crazy thing because this is this is pick picking up Charles Soul's mayor Fisk storyline that was written about 10 years ago 2016 so that was probably in the Zeitgeist then I inherited some of that storyline but for me in first season and second season which is part one part two it is Rise of a tyrant whether that's applying to now I'm actually kind of not in the that space I'm in what if Wilson fist criminal Rose to power
as mayor and yeah sometimes we're feeling a little like preent but all of this stuff was written long before the events have happened so I don't really know is it just something that's in the air or is it just it's a story that's it's an archetypal story that's happened many many times over the centuries I've been drawing more on a lot of Greek mythology but it's again the same story that we see reiterated time and time again so I I don't have a good answer for that other than I'm getting I'm going to start just
writing stuff that's son and I follow treasure and hope it happens it's funny it's I'm still waiting um you know the other thing about Wilson Fisk is that this feels like also to say this word I've said before inevitable for him is that this is all he's wanted right he has wanted not just power but he wants to be able to take care of New York City and not be the ruler necessarily of it but the protector of it and I think that's what's so interesting because they since you saw him you know when the
the name Kingpin was mentioned all those years ago to now this is what he was moving towards right right okay last question for you guys um could could Matt Murdoch be in The Avengers I'm not asking you if he's going to be and I know that's that's a Kevin feige level decision yeah that's so like 100% he could be in The Avengers if you saw Spider-Man in there like I that's what I love about the Avengers is that anyone can come in and out and there everyone has a unique special skill set so I would
love to see it I mean I don't know what's going to happen no comment but I keep him alive at least so he has a chance please please please don't take him away from me for a while like I've got plans for this man that's true we can weave that in between seasons though right he he takes off at the end of season two and then season 3 oh that was crazy when I met the Avengers I mean he just doesn't have enough money for the ticket to get there it's just too expensive how am
I going to get there well thank you so much guys it's a pleasure to talk to you the season
