The Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook I am recording this right after Lakers Maps just the very top here four things I wanted to hit coming off that game number one the Luca dones trade is now kind of seeming stupid for Dallas oh wait it was stupid immediately when it happened uh this is just a disaster I can't believe Nico Harrison actually went to the game like they weren't going to chant thank you Nico at him for two and a half hours if I was him I would have pretended to have covid the flu
bronchitis I don't know what but I would not have wanted to be in the building that's just nuts um all right three actual takeaways one this is already the best rivalry in the NBA I the most interested in every Lakers Mavericks game from now on we didn't even have Anthony Davis tonight we didn't have Gafford we didn't have Lively there's going to be a version of This game uh at least for this season and next season I would guess where you you have this big Mavericks team with a bunch of size and then you have
this weird Lakers team that's kind of playing small but they're not small because their front court has 800 pounds of guys uh then Luca trying to get revenge against his his old team and just a lot of different storylines that I think are great I we had this in the 2000s the seeds of it when Shaq went to Miami but Kobe's Lakers team wasn't good enough we had the seeds of it when Durant went to Golden State in 2016 and then there was is going to be an OKC Golden State rivalry but golden state was
just way better than OKC this has a chance to be a really fun back and forth every time they play it's going to be a fun game like the one tonight and I'm looking forward to it I would say for the rest of the 2020s this is our best bet for an awesome NBA rivalry like Boston Cleveland maybe that'll get there uh I doubt we're going to have all the story lines and the baggage that this one has uh I don't know Minnesota OKC sure SGA Anthony Edwards that'll be great can't wait to watch those
guys battle but it's not going to have the baggage in the history of this rivalry so depending on how long LeBron is able to play at this level this is the best we're going to do could we get this as a 27 Matchup in the NBA Playoffs so Lakers right now 3 35 and 21 two seed is conceivable for them Dallas right now is the eight seed there's a bunch of teams tied in between seven and 10 they're getting some guys back soon if you want to get good ratings NBA I would rig a 27
Lakers Dallas I think would be the way to do it anyway this is an awesome rivalry that was my first takeaway tonight watching this where I'm just like this is must watch TV every Time these two guys two teams play second one is the Lakers who Rell and I talked about on Sunday night I think they're a wild card Contender they're not one of the four contenders to win the title but they're they might be Fifth and they're definitely the I don't know what the ceiling is of this team yet they're 15 and four in
their last 19 now they've been top five net the whole time ruy at Center um which you know they've they've Done from time to time when ad was out but um they're doing it by necessity now because the Mark Williams trade got canceled he's he's a little Carl Anthony towns chair at times and I mean that in a good way like he's got size he's got he could stretch the floor um and he's just big enough that he can push against a postup player not the you know not a rim protector neither as towns but
when you watch them and it's their crunch time today and I think Their crunch time just going forward Reeves as the point guard even though he's not a point guard ruy as the center even though he's not a center and then LeBron and Luca and Finny Smith as the wings and they're all just really smart basketball players who can kind of fill in the blanks and not totally get burned the rim protection is not going to be perfect there's going to be guards like Kyrie tonight that they're just not going to be able to to
stay in front of Unless it's a team defensive concept I think it works I I'm bullish on this Lakers team as a contender everyone's like oh you hate the Lakers you hate the Lakers when the Lakers are good I'm gonna admit it we were admitting it we were doing pods all the way up until Co happened in the 201920 season saying the Lakers Clippers are the two best teams I think the Lakers are a legit Contender uh and you know I think they can get away with these goofy Lineups because they're really well coached and
their best two players are really smart and no where to go and what to do so that th that's my second takeaway uh ironically Luca is not in any of my my big three takeaways because we know how talented he is we know how good he is and you know it was interesting you would have bet like if you're were betting on fandel you're doing like the same game they had the the uh parlay boost Token the uh the obvious bet would have been oh Luca Revenge points and it never works out that way he
just did the classic other version of game where he filled out every part of the box score got a triple double but you know he did not have the 40o game which I think when you think about revenge it wasn't what we saw tonight but he played a really smart offensive game and really controlled it and did a lot of good stuff but that leads to the Third thing watching LeBron reinvent himself on the Fly and I think this is his 22 NBA season at age 40 when we thought we had seen every version of
whatever was happening with him I didn't think he ever had a chance to compete for a title again and almost immediately he has figured out how to kind of coexist with Luca how to let Luca have the ball way more than we've ever seen LeBron be comfortable with with the teammate since 2011 Miami um playing off the ball and figuring out how to affect the game in all these different ways and then when he gets the ball doing LeBron things this is a hybrid of 2011 Miami that first first year when it was still Wade's
team and he was kind of easing his way into it he was still getting his stats but there was a lot of time when Wade was cooking because Wade was one of the three best players in the league and he's deferring to to Luca at least what We've seen so far while also trying to figure out all these different ways to fit in like he'll get like these sneaky offensive rebounds he only had two assists today because he didn't have the ball that much but he still ended up with you know I think he had
25 and 12 got some big rebounds um and then defensively the first what two months of the Season he was just atrocious defensively and all the advanced metrics backed it up and he's been way more Active and um I'm just really impressed the defense the rebounding and the off the ball stuff is about as high level as it gets we were working on the ringer 100 stuff and um you know after the second month of the season I didn't think there was any case for him to be a top 25 player anymore I don't think
there's nine players playing better than him right now like you go joic SGA Giannis Tatum those four Luca from a pedigree has to be still a top 10 player Mitchell Brunson Edwards and then it's LeBron and Cade are probably the 10 best players in the league right now there's been some injuries we've lost some guys but LeBron has to be in the top 10 and I think he's a second Team all NBA guy the way this is going he's been awesome and you know at this point in his career when he's done pretty much everything
you could do and and we see a lot of the old Superstars Doug Collins always used to Talk about how hard it is to coach an old Superstar he seems like he's completely bought in to hey we might actually have a chance to win what do I have to do um it doesn't seem like there's a lot of ego stuff which you see with a lot of older players just how do I fit in how do we win how can I chip in um it's really interesting to watch and I I'm taking the Lakers seriously
so those are my big uh takeaways from Lakers Mavs we have a lot more in the Podcast coming up hey don't leave the podcast now I still got football and White Lotus for you next we're also brought to you by the ringer podcast Network where I put up a brand new rewatchables on Monday night me and vanay lean and Joanna Robinson did crash the 2006 Oscar winner it's the 20th anniversary of that movie um we rarely do this on the rewatchables where we just bring a movie on just so we can pick Nets with it
for an hour and a half And make fun of it and do a whole bunch of things uh I had a really good time I thought this was a very entertaining episode every once in a while we just got to do this to keep the muscles fresh anyway you can watch that as a video podcast on Spotify you can go to The Ringer movies YouTube channel and watch it there as well you can get all the videos and clips from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and then last But not least Celtic City
on HBO Sunday night March 3D HBO Max it's going to be once a week it's nine episodes um it's one of the coolest projects I've been involved with and uh I'm really psyched for everybody to watch it so mark it down I know there's a lot of good TV on these days but Mark down uh Celtic City it's coming I'll talk more about it on Thursday's podcast coming up for the rest of this podcast shapati and I are going to talk about The quarterback situation in the NFL right now a lot of teams that need
one a lot of teams that can't find one some guys that might be moving teams some top 10 possibly top five possibly top three quarterback prospects that are uh gonna make the draft more interesting so we're gonna cover all that and then my friend Dave barad is Gonna Come on who is an EP of White Lotus and he's been a producer for a long time his story is interesting his story is about White Lotus and just Like what it's like when you see somebody as an executive producer of a of a scripted TV show what
is that job what do they do uh we're going to dive into all of it I promise you're like it so that is what's happening first our friends from Pro JP all right sh capaia from the ringer is here a roller coaster ride of a month for him the eagle win the Super Bowl in about as convincing of fashion as we've had in a while and then on the flip side The Sixers have spiraled into a fiery pit of Hell do do you care does anyone in Philly even care about the Sixers right now a
little bit but you can't wipe the smiles off everyone's faces it usually just goes back to the Eagles and the Super Bowl and then rooting now for the Sixers to just hold on to that uh that pick one through six I think that's what it's it's returned to here yeah it's going to be a if they end up in the six spot it's a top six protected pick And you're just holding your finger your fingers crossed that nobody Lea frogs them I think ending up at seven after how devastating the season would have been is
was that that would be an all-timer the Eagles thing I'm still kicking myself for not picking them I have so many regrets I talked to you that first week of before we got into the Super Bowl week I'm like I'm taking the Eagles I'm taking them I I really think they have a better team and then By Wednesday the momes Kool-Aid had washed over me and the fear of just being wrong and having my like God I I and it just that was it that was the only reason I'm never doing that again if all
the evidence is on one team like that I'm just never doing that again I'm never buying into this whole amorphous well you got to do it they win all the time this is the stupidest thing you can do and why did we do it I picked the Eagles no I know you did I'm saying the All the momes pickers it it came down to yes great quarterback vers great team and I think we knew the Eagles had the better team numbers two through 53 I don't think I don't know anybody that picked the Eagles to
blow them out in that fashion though the the way they did so no one no one does that to the Chiefs I mean really it it was an alltime performance and that's why everybody's still uh anywhere you go still has the Eagles gear on and is not ready to turn The page to any of the other teams right now so all the Eagles fans have told me the pat Super Bowl because it was the first one of this of two generations basically was a more emotional better one but this was in a lot of ways
more satisfying um especially the jayen Herz piece of it which I think as we get away from that game and you know the days pass and it's just weren't really sure what you had with that guy and then he was really awesome I was watching some Of the inside the NFL type stuff after that game he was just great in that game I mean that's one of the better QB performances so going forward you know for the money you're paying all right it's like all right we can win the Super Bowl with this guy this
is good how what is the Shelf for this Eagles team with all the stuff they've done with the cap because I know they were maneuvering and getting a little uh creative but at some point that runs out right yeah I think You and I talked about like quarterback analysis before and has it gone too far where now we don't care as much if the guy is winning it's more about like the film and the analytics and Herz has kind of been a throwback where all season long I know we had conversations it's like all right
it's a little up and down and then the two biggest games of the year he comes through and is fantastic in the NFC Championship Game and the Super Bowl so I I'm with you I think it Changed his sort of his legacy and the way he's viewed at least locally but also nationally and in terms of the window they're in a good spot you mentioned it 2017 it was like that was magical for everyone because they had never done it before this feels like it's built to last they've got young guys in the secondary they've
got young defensive linemen they're going to bring back 10 of 11 starters at least uh on offense and so uh yeah they're in a very Good spot where I would expect this you never know if you get to another one or win another one but window is more open than it was I think the last time they won one yeah you figure it's four or five years for the window that was certainly the Pats had three different Windows during the Brady era and you know as we've discussed in the past all them hinge on if
you can nail a couple drafts in a row which is the Eagles did that they're probably the best example Of that the drafts that they had the last couple years and then looking out with like that linebacker who now is going to become one of the top free agents like couple really shrewd signings where you pay x amount for somebody and then he turns out to be an a-lister uh it's really impressive you don't think there's a a an unexpected trade with them though right like there's no hey here's the time to trade AJ brown
right now for draft Capital so We can get like are they gonna do anything crazy I don't think they're going to trade a core player if there's an unexpected trade if miles Garrett gets dealt and it's a position of need and you say hey we're not going to be drafting high in the next couple years anyway and this is a premium position an elite play player to add to the best defense in the NFL that to me would be a Howie Roseman move I I don't know that it's going to happen but when I look
at The list of teams that I would say I could actually see them giving up a hall for Miles Garrett I I would put them on that list of of two or three teams you don't think Parsons gets into play this year right I don't I think this is the Cowboys being the Cowboys let's you know get ourselves in the headlines for three months over some nonsense and then we'll end up making him the highest paid defensive player in NFL history I I don't know how you tri I don't know how You take yourself seriously
and trade you know like a generational defensive player like that but I I guess who knows well it's the thing where you've already committed to these other guys MoneyWise and it's almost like you've made the mistake of doing that and now you compound the mistake by doing the second thing it's almost like the ID extension the Sixers did where it's like well we're all in okay here's the extension and then and you're just making things Worth so Eagles plus 650 on fandu to to win the Super Bowl again they're the favorites oh Casey 7 to1
which I thought was ambitious because that's an aging team in a lot of respects I don't know they have the same offensive line problems that half the league has and can't be like well we need a left tackle well cool 15 teams need a left tackle Kelsey don't even know if he's coming back or not uh I thought that was uh pretty ambitious to have them tied with The Ravens the Ravens are 7 to1 too I probably would have had the Ravens as the favorite at coming out of the AFC Detroit's down to 9-1 San
Francisco go is 12 to1 Buffalo plus 750 and then we get into some intriguing teams when you go into like the longer shot odds like Texans 28 to1 kind of jumped out to me a whiff Vikings 32 to one if you you can make a case for McCarthy to be good next year but they have a lot of Cap space too thought that was interesting and then um really nobody is there anybody else you were thinking long shot wise that you're like I want to see what happens with their draft in free agency and there
might be value now the Packers you didn't mention in there I don't think unless did I miss the I might have missed the Packers 211 Packers okay yeah I like they're a team that I think just had sort of a weird year where I think there's a path to Them being in the mix and being really good uh next year well they're trying to ban the the tush push so they're already like getting on it right now that that has made Eagles fans much more Angry than anything the Sixers are doing they've turned their wrath
to the Packers and they like those losers they want to this that they can't stop so that's interesting and then I think a team that we'll get to here and talk about quite a bit the Rams we don't know What they're going to do but if you look at sort of the Eagles Super Bowl path who was the one team that really played them tough in the snow and it came down to the final possession it was the Rams and you can really look at the Rams the last two years and be like if you
played every season out 10 times there's definitely a scenario where I think they get to the Super Bowl each of the last two seasons so they're another team that's stands out to me a little bit as Well I they also [ __ ] up everybody who was going against the Eagles the last two rounds cuz they really came on like a freight train in that Rams in the Rams Eagles game and that was the worst the eagles look the whole playoffs just for you know a four that fourth quarter um I brought you on to
do a little quarterback roulette I usually teams we go into the offseason and teams need quarterbacks but it feels like it's an unusual amount Of this could go this way this could go this way this could go this way um I wanted to go through all the scenarios but we should start with the Rams before we go through the draft pick teams the Rams they have Stafford they have the 26th pick they have 44.3 million in cap space there's some weird Stafford stuff where if they trade him they take a massive cap hit for this
season right they save like four million bucks something like that but longterm um lot Dead cap 45.3 and they would say 4.3 the new team that takes him he'd count for 27 million 4 million guaranteed this year and 31 million next year is it realistic to you that he gets traded we don't usually see this with a team trading an expensive quarterback and taking a cap hit and then another team absorbing a big contract do you see him getting traded I think it's the biggest story in the NFL right now it's the biggest domino to
fall and I think it Really goes back to last off season where they were at ahead Matthew Stafford and the Rams with this contract and ultimately the Rams gave in a little bit it didn't happen I think until like the first day of training camp where finally they came to an agreement but it's pretty clear that Matthew Stafford wants to cash in and feels like all this big quarterback money that's getting paid out there he feels like he's playing better than those guys and I Think Peter shreer throughout $50 million per year is what he's
seeking so this isn't just like a new thing that's cro that that's what makes me think there's some legs to it and he could get traded now having said that wait hold on on the 50 million Year cuz two is making that and Herz is making that so if I'm Matthew Stafford I'm like I'm worth 50 million a year look at that guy and that guy yeah and even last year ktk cousins often Achilles similar age got 46 A5 Million do per year so I get that aspect of it and I get the aspect of
the ram saying dude you're going to be 37 years old we've paid you a lot of money over the years you're under a contract we can't commit to like three more years of Matthew Stafford because we just watched Kurt Cousins and Aaron Rogers and old quarterbacks around the NFL when the cliff comes it comes pretty quickly so I think that's what this is about with the two sides and so I don't know you know They've given Stafford and his agent permission hey go negotiate with other teams see what you can get and then the Rams
can decide hey is that compensation worth it I think what's GNA happen is everyone's going to take a deep breath and the Rams are gonna say we are a good team with Matthew Stafford we have a chance to make noise in the playoffs we want him back and Stafford's going to say do I want to go Chase something with the New York Giant like it's not going To be as good of a situation wherever he goes and if he's thinking hey I want to win uh I want to have that Hall of Fame resume maybe
when my career's over there's no better situation than Los Angeles so if I'm making a prediction it's that eventually they reached some type of agreement and he's back with the Rams but given that it's the second year in a row and there could be hurt feelings and it could get personal all those things uh you never know well and There's a lot of posturing through the Press which always makes me suspicious the more posturing publicly the more I I usually think this is just people rolling up their sleeves showing some biceps but nothing's actually gonna
happen I looked at all the scenarios for trade teams for him and people were mentioning the Giants like you said I have no idea why he'd want to do that he already took an insane amount of punishment when he was on the Lions the First half of his career right he's 37 I also think Kyle turn the Tik Tok camera on I think I I was thinking about how LeBron and Brady have ruined our perspective with guys in their late 30s to the point now that like LeBron looks great I think LeBron might be a
second Team all NBA guy at this point the way he's playing and the way and how much he's uh he's invested in defense especially the last month and a half where he's he's been one of the top 10 Guys in the league for two months now and then you have Brady playing till he's 45 but there's really no other examples you go like oh look at Chris Paul he's still doing really well in the Spurs like yeah he's 10 and eight you know and I just I would be so nervous with the Stafford thing so
if I'm the Giants I'm not tring the third pick for him maybe it's like the third for the TW the Rams have the 26 for the 26 in Stafford and then I'm using all my cap Space for Stafford where am I going I'm goingon to be like I'm in the same division as the Eagles what how does that make me better the only team I think makes sense is the Raiders the Raiders have almost 100 million in cap space they have Carol they have some blue chipper on both sides I don't think it's inconceivable that
they could be pretty good next year if they had Stafford and then you know didn't give up the six pick in the trade Is there any other team do you like that Raiders fit for him we are 100% on the same page can we just pour cold water on the Giants thing a little bit more for a second I'm with you this this is one of the dumbest ideas like like they would be just making a desperate move to save their jobs and all of a sudden Matthew Stafford's going to go across the country at
37 years old and they're going to rebuild their offensive line and they're going to add more pass Catching help and they're going to improve a defense that was bottom five in the NFL and Stafford's gonna look as good without Johan MCB all those things are going to happen and this is going to work out beautifully for the and cold weather instead OFA give me a break and the Eagles twice a week or twice a year and Carson twice a year come on and Washington come on thank you terrible idea so we're on the same page
there I thought I was going to surprise you with The Raiders as my Wild Card we're on that's the one I can see because I can see Tom Brady going like you just said dude Matthew come here I can show you some ways to stay healthy extend your career you are one of the smartest quarterbacks in the NFL I don't want these young guys they're dummies they can't get to the third read on the back no I know you can play quarterback we're g to bring you in Pete Carroll he's like I'm not trying to
rebuild anything here Let's go get a quarterback who I know I can win with uh right away so I don't love the roster you're probably a little bit higher on the roster maybe than I am I see I'm not don't don't might me high in the roster I'm just saying they have a couple good players and they have cap space yeah they got Brock Bowers Max Crosby and then they would need to rebuild things but again he's playing in a controlled environment uh indoors Wilkins too they have three blue Chippers yeah so they had they
had three guys there so that's the one I looked at and I thought I could see the Raiders if there's a team that says we're willing to go there 50 million a year two years let's go let's win right now we'll give you maybe a second round pick or whatever to the Rams and Stafford says hey Pete Carroll Tom Brady that sounds pretty good to me I want to get paid what I'm worth well a thing that you and I both love when we're doing the Futures In the off season is new coach replacing an
incompetent coach which I think is the case here with the Raiders yeah and then way better QB replacing a bunch of [ __ ] QBs they fit that recipe too and there's there's some Washton parallels with them and none of us had the balls to pick Washington as a team that could potentially you know make the make the NFC title game or even the playoffs but there was a recipe we all looked at we're like ah man they just they need Too much help but they did have the new coach who was way better than
the old coach and the QB that could come in and potentially be way way better than what they were getting in QB both of those things happen they hit some draft picks they hit some free agents I don't feel like the Raiders are that far away from that recipe I don't think the Patriots are either those are the two teams that I think you have to take seriously but for them like You know if they were able to keep that six pick get somebody awesome trade for Stafford nail one more pick get two more guys
in Frid and then all of a sudden you hope the Chiefs go backwards you hope the Chargers kind of stay where they are you kind of hope that you could talk yourself into it I guess is my point yeah it's tough in the AFC like I don't see a path really for them to get to the Super Bowl but it's not about that for every team yeah can they win Confident again yeah can they sneak into the playoffs and have them moment where they've just been such a uh beat down franchise I think that is
within uh the realm of possibilities there well Carol and Stafford over Gardner mchu and the Antonio Pierce that's five wins I don't even care who else is on the team that you have to be I'm just making that a plus five um all right we got to go through some of these uh some of these teams I spent all morning by the way Bill just but that placing team with quarterback what do I think's going to happen what's the most interesting thing so we've built up so much drama we got to take a break let's
take a break we'll come back QB rette this episode is brought to you by Audi the all new fully electric Audi q6 rron a huge leap forward featuring effortless power serious acceleration and the most advanced Tech of any Audi ever experience technology that put you Center Stage the panoramic digital stage plus an optional screen for front seat passengers that sounds fun perfect for watching the latest sports documentary maybe I made it the q6 rron is not just a new EV it's a new way to experience driving learn more at audiusa.com always pay careful attention to
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on their money line and and ride the wave when they make a big comeback you can Combine your live bets into a same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout however you want to play now is the perfect time to join and I still love the Futures when I when I was in Boston recently uh all the playoffs stuff who's going to make the playoffs you can parlay stuff together I'm on the airplane we're about to take off I'm still making like teaming playoff bets together great stuff new FanDuel customers get started with
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on the clock at number one they have $51 million in cap space they have the same coach they have the first pick in the draft and they have will levice a quarterback who I think we can all agree it's not happening um there's two separate questions here why wouldn't they just take cam word I know you're starting to do draft prep people do not think he is the best player in this Class I think there's consensus McShay had his great newsletter this weekend our draft guys are talking about it too you can say there's either
two or or three elite players in the draft right the Abdul Carter Travis Hunter and then I personally and as you know I don't watch a lot of college football but I've I've prepped for this draft a lot it seems like Mason Graham to me is a home run pick and an elite guy so those three guys King W is not better than any of Them but QB matters the most and if you can hit with a guy in the rookie scale that's the best thing you can do so two questions why wouldn't they just
take cam Ward and if they didn't why wouldn't they trade back to a team that wanted to take cam Ward because I think he should be the first pick what are your thoughts on that I I think the thing with quit I think the reason why they wouldn't is because teams are kind of overconfident in their ability to evaluate Quarterbacks and we see it every year like this time at last year this time last year we're talking about J and Daniels but we're pointing out all the FL like no one I don't know that anyone
had the take that he's going to come in and turn around the franchise right away and be the guy no one was that confident and we see it year after year with the way uh these guys get drafted high they don't pan out other guys get drafted later in the first round or the second Round so I think it's fair to look at cam Ward and say you know there there are some questions there but I'm with you if you see the upside and I think by all accounts the the people who have already studied
this and I I still have to look at it a little bit closer but they say he has the tools he has the upside he has the athletic traits he has the arm so if you have those things sometimes you just have to take a swing and like it's different to take a guy With the first pick than to trade three first round picks to get up to the top five like if you draft if you're the Titans you draft C Ward you keep him for two years it's not really working out he's not the
guy you're just sort of back to where you are now but with good players because hopefully you added pieces to the roster it's not like you know you're a complete dumpster fire of a franchise and you have to come up with all these Solutions so I think that they Should look into taking him if they reach the threshold of hey he has the upside and we got to find a quarterback I'm not convinced that they're going to do that just because they've been a train wreck of an organiz let's call it what I mean they
can't figure out which way the wind blows who do they want the GM to be who do they want the coach to be what's their plan they spend big in free agency so seems like a top five worst owner right now agree yes yeah to Be like yeah rael's not our guy let's let's let me back the GM then I'm going to fire your later like that's just tells me you're don't know what you're doing exactly so I sort of lean towards them being safer and just drafting um the best possible player and maybe saying
hey cam Ward's not perfect so let's go in a different direction and I wonder if other teams look at Ward and say he's good enough where we want to give up draft Capital to move up to Number one or maybe we hang tight um and see who Falls to us so there's two possible moves for them if it's not cam W one is you flip picks with the Giants one to three if you think the Giants the Giants are fired up for him and are worried that they're not going to get him that he's not
going to fall to three that somebody's going to trade above them they just want to lock it down I mean would you trade trade down two spots if you could Get a Giant's future first out of it I wouldn't do it for the second rounder I think that's too much and the history of the draft is if you're trading up for a quarterback you've got to have another first in the deal we've just that's how it's gone if I'm the the Titans and I need help everywhere and I could go from one to three and
I know I'm still getting Carter or Hunter at two at number three and I'm getting a Giants pick which I would really want because I Don't think they're GNA be good anytime soon I would do that I don't know if I would do it if I was the Giants because I like we discussed earlier I don't know where I'm going if I'm the Giants I'd probably just I just want a good player um but that's that's the only trade that makes sense to me for them yeah I I'm with you I think if you're the
Titans I would absolutely do that move down two spots and get aure first that'd be smart business the Giants would have to really now the Giants are an interesting team because they are in job preservation mode and these are the teams that act the most recklessly because they don't really care what's happening three years down Ro I'm getting fir I'm getting fired next year if this doesn't work out my favorite GMS for Content these are the best teams so uh maybe they do it I sort of feel like that might even they I don't know
that they'll like him that Much to say yeah we'll give up next year's first to move up two spots yeah content MVPs brand new owners and GMS who need to do something desperate because if it doesn't work out they're getting fired anyway that just the MVPs for 25 years for me um I don't really see any other moves up to the one spot unless it was the Raiders and they dangled six and a future first and maybe even took like a bad contract from the Titans because They have the cap space to actually absorb something
that's the only other one like I you know like the the draft order is Titans Browns Giants the Pats aren't trading up for cam Ward Jacksonville is not trading up for cam Ward at number five so it would really just be the Raiders unless there's a jet scenario that I I I think there's a more interesting version of this but they have the seventh pick and if Garrett Wilson was on the Table with the seventh pick to move up to one I'm at least having a meeting about that if the Titans but I'm probably not
doing it I think the Jets need to be in just relax mode reset everything like I I don't think this is the year for them to take a big swing on something like that for a quarterback just kind of rebuild the culture add to the roster in the draft so that that would surprise me a little bit the Raiders a lot of sort Of links between shador Sanders and the Raiders where he and Tom Brady have a relationship he and Mark Davis I think have a relationship that one's interesting to me cuz I think you
know we mentioned Stafford but let's say Stafford's not on the table they might look at it and Pete Carol's not going to be afraid to play a Young quarterback he's done that before obviously with Russell Wilson and if Tom Brady's like no trust me this like I just feel like Whoever Tom Brady wants that's going to be the quarterback of the Raiders maybe that's wrong but every time I'm looking at some of the options I'm like Tom Brady's not gonna want Sam darnold for you know 30 plus million dollars a year and I'm like Stafford
I could see it shador Sanders I could see it and then maybe if those don't pan out Gina are or are they the Aaron Rogers team or again oh God he would look at it and say you know what he's a veteran but he can Still play he's going to be good in this system so I the Raiders might be the most interesting of any of these teams that need a quarterback we'll go back to that top of the draft I'm just going to give everybody the possibilities here are the quarterback possibilities if you're looking
for one cam Ward who's going to be a top four pick shador Sanders who I think is going to be I would say top eight pick maybe top nine pick he's GNA he's going to go In the first nine I just don't know where and we're going to know is he did he go to the combine or did he skip it uh I don't think he's participating in the combine because there's some athleticism stuff with him that's funny because his dad's Dion but I think everyone talks about he's tough he's smart he processes everything but
athletically he's not actually as athletic as you would think he is so I'm sure that at some point people are going To want to see it with their own eyes and then there's the Jackson Dart late first round early second um could he have like a bow Knicks rise out of nowhere that's it for guys who could actually start for a team next year then you have Stafford we talked about uh all the cap stuff with him Sam darnold Garoppolo Rogers Russell Wilson the corpse of Kirk Cousins jamus Winston Justin fields and my guy Joe
Milton who I don't know if you've seen Don't don't look at who's on Buffalo's team in week 18 just look at what Joe Milton is doing don't look to see if there are any starters on the field Joe Milton is he worth the first round pick probably Eagles version of that is Tanner mcke by the way you know there are a couple of those guys who the the fan base of that team is like H would you take a first for this guy I don't know you know proba want to hold on to him is
there anyone else that I've Listed all those QBs is there anyone else you had that is like ah I could see that guy starting all right do you want a little wild card that I don't think is going to happen but do I need to buckle up should I put my seat belt buckle up a little bit the Pittsburgh Steelers call the Indianapolis Colts and say we will give you a third round pick for Anthony Richardson a quarterback who you guys know you don't like him anyway you benched him last year you brought him Back
in The Vibes were terrible you want to admit your mistake you know you're not going to get a first for him obviously at this point he's been injured and he hasn't done anything yet but we will give you a third round pick and then you can decide what you want to do at quarterback so Anthony Richardson goes to Pittsburgh under the Mike Tomlin umbrella they get a Young quarterback they get a new culture they run the football with him and the Indianapolis Colts bill they are your Sam darnold team they say you know what we're
gonna give Sam darnold 35ish million dollars per year we're going to admit our mistake with Anthony Richardson and take the third round pick and this is going to be the trade that shakes up the NFL this offseason how do we feel wow so the Colts have 30 million in c space right now they have the 14th pick and if they traded Richardson I would assume there's some Sort of C pit to it but not that much because he's on a rookie contract so maybe that gets them into darnold range what's darnold worth for you before
before I tell you whether I like this idea or not because the franchise tag for him would be 44 no uh 42.4 million franchise tags because people were thinking oh you could see the Vikings franchise that would be insane for them to do that I per I personally think they Have 60 million in cap space you're just G to use all of that to franchise tag them then hope you can trade them why would they do that so what's he actually worth because he's not worth 44 yeah I'm with you that's the other the the
posturing you mentioned earlier with um the Stafford I think that's the darnold St give me a break they're going to franchise tag him and then trade him and keep a $40 million cap hold I don't see any a team we never seen anyone do that No I wouldn't see it I think the comp is the baker Mayfield deal uh from was it last year or two years ago where he got I think was 33 33 and a half million doll per year was like a three-year $100 million deal I think that's kind of the best
case scenario for Sam darnold where if there's a team that says you know what I know it didn't end well for him but we like him he can play well for us we're going to pay him real starter money I think that's the number because The weird thing about the NFL is there's no kind of middle ground for these contracts like the only quarterback making between 15 and $30 million per year is Gino Smith so it's either you're a bridge quarterback and you're or a backup and you're under $15 million per year or it's no
we believe in you as our starter and you're making between 30 and $60 million per year it's almost like Hollywood actors where you have like you have your Tom Cruz types and then you you drop like majorly to the next to the next level of like yeah we could put that guy in a poster but it does you know you don't really have to spend a lot of money for it I I personally think 30 million for darnold's too high but I I can't shake the last two games I don't know how you get past
that if you're running a team and you're thinking about if the if the goal is to actually try to win the Super Bowl there Might be some other teams that just their goal would be competency and then maybe makes sense but uh you Mayfield at least Mayfield had done you know he had pulled the Browns he'd won a playoff game there was some some sort of history and then he had a really good comeback year and there was some stuff you could point to I don't know I'd be really nervous about that um so you
think Colts potentially for him I don't see it with the Raiders the Steelers would be the other one because just because they have the cap space and if they could get him and sell him on the culture and be like 60 million for three years make him a $2 million guy maybe yeah yeah you you seem suspicious I look at it and yeah my my Richardson you know trade was more uh Team content and I don't expect that to happen I'm with you so I think you look at it the Steelers when I was just
going through all the teams they were one of The teams left where I said okay I don't have a place for Sam darnold so in that sense I could see it is he the type of guy Mike Tomlin wants though you know like he's gonna probably I know what what is Mike Tom Mike tomlin's like your buddy who just it's all kinds of girls you have no idea what his type is he's been all over the map mean think of all the QBs they've run in and out of there he's trying to talk himself into
trabis and you know is he Russell Wilson great Justin Fields I don't does he have a type yeah no that's a good point you're right I don't know what it is so I I don't know that they would want to pay that kind of money for Sam darnold would they rather just take a one-year flyer on somebody are they in Aaron Rogers team you know potentially the Steelers where they say can I ask you this are you in Aaron Rogers team would you would you want to do a year with Aaron Rogers I'm out there's
no way I'm going near That dude I would want from what we saw last year he doesn't want to get hit anymore he doesn't have legs anymore like I I I just don't see it I agree and all the stuff that comes with it I would want nothing to do with it the Steelers kind of just sit back and look at who's left there so that's why I threw them out there for him the tit with the Titans if they don't draft a quarterback at one who's playing quarterback for the Titans would they look at
Sam darnold uh Or somebody like Derek Carr and say let's just get sort of a short-term option for a couple years while we build up the out that's a I'm blind out can I throw a name at you that um I feel like his stock is too far down compared to what it should be garoo okay so terrible Raiders here right immortalized in the uh Devonte Adams wide receiver show just him being pissed off the whole year but we've also seen he's had success in there was a While where the biggest criticism for him would
be like well when he's on the field he's good but he keeps getting hurt he keeps getting dinged up he takes hits he's just it's the durability would be the question for him and now we moved into this phase of he's just not good at quarterback and I'm not sure I believe that because you know the Niners came pretty close to winning a Super Bowl with him which is a lot more than we could say About anyone else we're talking about on this list except Rogers who's washed up and I'm just like if I'm going
tock 30 million for Sam darnold I would kind of rather play 5 million for garoo and try to build an offensive line around him so he's not taking big hits and do that because I've seen him do it before I don't think he can do it if he doesn't have a line but if if you're actually blocking for him it's not inconceivable to me that He'd be good yeah you agree or disagree no I think you're right if you have the infrastructure you know in place I think the problem with a lot of these teams
were talking about and look at like do they have a good offensive line do they have good wide receivers do they have a good play caller now you could have those caveats for a lot of the quarterbacks were discussing here as well but I do agree with you I would Rather take a flyer on Jimmy Garoppolo for under 10 million than commit to Sam darnold on that Baker Mayfield contract than to have all the stuff that comes with Aaron roders at this age like I I would rather just buy some time because I think you're
right when he's on the field he will give you a baseline level of Competency where you will be able to run your offense your other players will get their touches you build up the roster and then you see where you're at A year from now so yeah I I don't think um that's a wrong way to look at it the Rams would they if they were to trade Matthew Stafford would they just say hey garoppolo's been here let's do a year with garoo and then we'll figure it out after that yeah like like if the
Seahawks chared Gino which we'll talk about in a second and they were like we're going to bring in Jimmy cheaper price I would be like that's a bad idea you guys can't block like Jimmy's going To just take a lot of hits and run for his life and he's going to suck like he did on the Raiders but if it was a team that had a little more stability like I actually think the Steelers if they can get their offensive line healthy next year is it's a good offensive line potentially they've certainly invested in it
and he seems like more of a Steeler type to me going backwards Browns at two no QB and Watson out for the year with the Achilles Thing this is another team it's like why wouldn't they take k w if he was sitting there at two they're never going to have another chance to sign a QB trade for one they're they're in this Watson hell um and everyone's like well do you see them take Hunter or Carter I don't understand why they wouldn't take a quarterback if they liked Ward why wouldn't they I'm with you with
these teams like you only get so many chances at drafting a quarterback and it's not That the likelihood is high that you're going to hit but it's what happens if you do actually hit it totally changes your and especially for a team like this that is in Capell that has signed the worst contract of any player in NFL history with DeShaun Watson and there's no way out of it like I see the the rumors that hey Kurt trade go get Kurt Cousins I mean where does that leave you you know 37y old Kurt Cousins and
much rather have Garoppolo than Kirk Cousins Yeah so Kirk Cousins I think is gonna retire and be on TV next year would be my prediction for him interesting maybe yeah because he's getting paid either way he's getting most of the Atlanta money why does he want to keep playing he's had a great life he's made a bunch of and he'll be an immediate like I I think like an aggressive TV candidate okay I like that I hadn't thought about that I was looking at where Kurt Cousins might end up but I'm with you basically We're
on the same page with the teams at the top of the draft like I think too often teams are like this isn't an Andrew Luck type Prospect you know this isn't who whoever we we can't take them because if it goes back to the job security thing because they're like if we miss on this we're not going to get a chance to draft another quarterback I do think that's a big deal we talked about the Eagles at the top like Howe Roseman can make mistakes they signed Bryce Huff Last year for $17 million per year
and he was inactive in the Super Bowl guess what it doesn't M he he's allowed to take those risks they had Carson Wentz on a huge deal and they were able to trade him other organizations that don't have stability their GMS are making decisions based on is this potentially going to get me fired and they can't get that out of their head where if you had a guy who knew he had the job for the next 15 20 years I bet they'd be more Likely to say hey Kim W's not perfect but we kind of
like him let's take a flyer on this cuz look at what the other options are it's such an important point the psychology of the people making the decision never gets factored into these mock drafts if I'm running the Titans or if I'm running the Browns and I don't take cam word and then he goes to the Giants at three and he's awesome I'm getting fired if I take cam word I'm buying two Years I'm in the same spot with grigson and and on the Colts with Richardson where you take the guy you're not really going
to get criticized no matter what happens for two years and there's always the illusion of Hope with the QB you took right so with Cam Ward I'm buying the illusion of Hope for two years I I now I'm secure with my job same thing if the Giants were able to get him a three that's why I think there's no scenario where he's not one of the top three Picks yeah and I'd be really surprised I just I don't understand why the Browns would pass on him when they are just completely [ __ ] with this
Watson thing um and I also think like is it inconceivable Ward could go one and Sanders could go two and we'd be like oh my God we've seen Mitch trabis go second in a draft like like the closer you get to these drafts like everybody thinks cam Ward isn't as good as the top three quarterbacks in last year's draft right They don't even maybe think he's as good as penx was last year but when you're in these drafts and people need quarterbacks all of a sudden the value just skyrockets for these stupid reasons I think
the BRS they're so screwed I don't know how they don't take a quarterback when one like oh cool we have Travis Hunter great I have nobody to throw the ball to him and our defense is going to be on the field all the time they'll probably get hurt Giants at Three no QB except Drew lock third pick 38.7 million c space and this this seems like another another QB spot for me there's a p like could you trade three for Stafford in 26 you could I I as we covered I don't know how it makes
sense yeah I think their I think their best case scenario is to stay put and those quarterbacks don't go one and two and you take a quarterback they almost they're like the team that has to they have to make a move I don't even think They have a quarterback on the roster right now and they're not going to be like oh let's sign a bridge guy like Garoppolo again for what we just talked about because they there are jobs on the line so they have to take a swing they seem like the cam Ward team
if he doesn't go one or two and if he does I I think you have to maybe look at shador Sanders there it could be a Russell Wilson team too like there's a case for Russell Wilson for a team like that Where you say Hey you made the playoffs last year he's pretty good for the Steelers right we get him for cheap because he's still being he's still in that giant contract he's in New York he knows how to handle the city you could talk yourself into that we're gonna suck anyway why am I spending
money on a quarterback and if I'm not drafting one Raiders at uh six six pick 99.5 million cap space there was stuff online as we were taping This morning about uh P Carroll talking to um the the uh Seahawks guy a lot of people wonder if Gino might get traded what is Gino worth to you like let's say the Raiders are like Gino's our guy we're gonna get him we're gonna give him a new contract this is the guy we want we he's confident enough he can throw the ball he's had some success this is
who we like is it a second round pick for Gino is it we'll give you the six for Gino in the 18 what's the Trade my initial gut went to second round pick I I don't think you're getting a first round pick for Gino Smith at his age you're also going to have to redo his contract or you're making a financial commitment to him he's going into the final year of his deal that that's interesting sixth for 18 G and 18 would you do that if you're the Seahawks and then you use the money and
you signed I don't know Sam darnold I wouldn't do that if I were the Seahawks I either I don't how about this I wouldn't trade J Smith if I were the Seahawks I wouldn't either yeah I wouldn't either so I don't draft an offensive line for him add a couple add a couple people who can block because that was why you you lost last year yeah it's true I mean if they had a great off season where they were able to upgrade just the offensive line and like not do anything else we might be on
here in August saying hey we like the Seahawks To win the NFC West I mean they won 10 games last year with a bad offensive line with a defense coach implementing a system for the first time like I think their defense is going to be pretty good next year so I'm with you yeah I don't know if they give him an extension you know in terms of an extension for Gino it's either the floor is probably that Baker Mayfield deal we talked about 33 million per year but he might look at it and go give
me a break like I I'm Playing better like you said behind this offensive line uh the salary cap has gone up I want over $40 million per year and then at his age in his mid-30s if you're the Seahawks are you comfortable doing that he's like look at all my comfortable behind winds and then they're like let's throw in the Cardinals tape of uh of some of the throws you made in that game um jets at seven oh by the way with the Raiders we feel like Stafford is a real possibility There that's our favorite
Raiders move right or taking Sanders yes there's one more Sanders piece that I forgot to mention during the Raiders part if Sanders is at four for the Patriots I don't know why they wouldn't flip picks with them at that point if the Patriots Sanders is still there and the Patriots signal we're trading we're trading out Of this pick because we have a bunch of people that want Sanders you could just move up and take them but give us uh give us your first next year four and six we'll flip give us next year's first and
we'll throw in our third round pick next year I'm doing that in five seconds if on the pets if you're the past yes I just these quarterbacks I don't know that the league thinks as highly of them that They would say I'm giving up a future first now I think there's a trade there to be made move from four to six second would you do four and six for the second something like that sure yeah I would think about uh something like that I think I mean when we're doing these it's like yeah who you're
old you know who would say no the Patriots I think are still saying yes to that whereas the other team the Raiders might be like I still don't know if I want to go that High but yeah I think if they like ERS and they want to go get him I would have no issue with them making a move like that yeah because if they're at six and they're basically talking themselves in Mason Graham or the or the best left tackle at that point who unfortunately people aren't positive he's a left tackle which makes me
nervous Will Campbell it's like no he's almost definitely a tackle but he does have short arms he might be a guard it's Like well if he might be a guard I'm not taking him in the top six I'm just not you can't spend a a top six pick on somebody who might be a guard I like I me he play he literally played left tackle in the SEC you know and then and then we start measuring the arm length and I'm like no he's not going to play I like him too do I have to
take him with the fourth pick do I have to take him with the sixth pick can I can I just move down and take him at Nine yeah uh jet 7 no QB seventh pick 11.2 million in cap space another possible Sanders spot can I just can I test drive you through uh Pats trade the four to the Jets for Wilson and the Seven scenario just for fun just for shits and giggles can you give me a who says no on that one I got I know I got nephew ky's attention jets are a no
I mean w Garrett Wilson on his own traded I believe would get a first round pick in return if you Look at wide receivers I mean AJ BR all these guys who got traded in the last five years who have been young uh wide receivers who are very good get first round picks so I don't know I didn't say it was a fair trade for the Jets I just wanted to walk you through the scenario what about four and and uh our third which is high up in the third round for seven and Wilson is
that more interesting to you and the Jets take Sanders still I'm not I'm not we have we have to put our second in that for you to do it uh yes and even that like if I'm the Jets I why am I trading Garrett Wilson like we're like hey we know he's miserable he doesn't want to be a jet anymore listen this is why you H Aon come to Jake B come to Jake B get him get Aaron Glenn in a room with him and he may uh change his tune that this is that's why
you hire Aaron Glenn to get through to some of these guys who Have just been like man it has been miserable being a jet well it's not going to be miserable anymore so I I wouldn't trade number one wide receivers on rookie contracts okay seventh pick in the draft does Sanders fall below seven because I don't see how the Jets don't take him at seven I don't see any scenario where that doesn't happen I don't think he falls below six I sort of feel like if he's there win the Raiders draft yeah so I'm with
you I I I Don't think so we we definitely have Hunter Carter who now they're talking about our his shoulders not 100% which could knock him out of the number one pick come to the Patriots BR wiie mcginness of this generation uh Carter Hunter Graham the two QBs and then it gets like when you start talking about like who do you think is going to be the six pick in this draft or in that top six you'll get different Answers from different people some people would say it's cble might be the quarterback from Michigan um
so for the Jets like if they're just sitting there and both quarterbacks are gone at that point they're just they're taking anybody uh a couple more teams Saints they have the ninth pick no cap space and Derek Carr and Spencer Rattler good luck uh no ability to trade no ability to really do anything Colts we mentioned whether they Move on from Richardson or not Steelers no QB whatsoever 21st pick 60.2 million in cap space I'm not saying they're not a Stafford team they could fit the contract in would you trade the 21st pick for Stafford
if you're the Steelers wow you have to feel like you could win the title if you're doing that it's a good one it was another name that I had written down for him I would Have to think strongly about doing that if I'm the Steelers when you look at their quarterback situation in recent years and like you said they made the playoffs last year with it's not like they have a terrible team they had a good defense uh you know things fell apart down the hey idiots like me were saying they were the best team
in the AFC at the end of November they really looked that way and then they completely died and I have we found TJ watt's body Yet what happened to him yeah where' he go so offensively it's not the greatest spot for Stafford when you look at just kind of The Supporting Cast but you have Pickins maybe you can add a piece in in the draft here in the uh later rounds I would have to think about that if I were the Steelers and given their other options would you trade 21 for Gino Smith wow I
actually think if I'm the Steelers I like that I would do that I Think I would too I think I would do it I know I second round pick yeah yeah uh couple more teams then we'll go the ners pry one more year left on this deal but this is the time when you blow up the deal you give him the giant extension and you kind of have to decide how much is Brock py worth um probably more than a Mayfield contract maybe less than a tua contract but Tua got the contract he did and
that made me think he's probably worth the Tua contract Yeah I say more than the Tua contract I mean oh Jesus really yeah yeah I I think oh God if if I'm pry maybe this I mean if two is getting $53 million per year and now the cap has gone up how are you taking anything on under than like 55 million per year I mean that's just what the price is for quarterback not better than py I don't think but they have the leverage of how about you take 85% of that to a deal and
then you have the security whatever happens this season You know you have the contract what if the season goes badly this is a pretty big financial decision you're locking it up do it now that would be the psychology You' try to use against them I guess like look at what happened to you the second half of last season you fell apart We're not gonna have Debo Samuel next year God only knows how long we're gonna have mcaffrey God only knows how long Trent Williams Gonna Be Healthy like you sure you don't want this Now I
guess but I think with the agents I would be like okay cool I'll play out the final year of my deal then you're going to tag me next year for what $45 million per year you're not going to be able to make any other moves and then after that I'm a free agent at the age of what he's going to be in his late 20s and I just saw what Kurt Cousins got on the open market market so unless I have a career ending injury I'm going to be just fine with that so I I
don't know I Think that's probably the floor now they could wait the 49ers could wait say play out the final year of your deal maybe tag him just you want do you want some more information before you commit that money to Brock pie I think that would be reasonable even if it cost you a little bit more in the long run he should hire Kirk Cousins as his advisor yeah just to just to scare them Seahawks we mentioned Gino in the 18th pick they're over the cap so they Basically have to figure out the Gino
thing trading him's not going to really buy them flexibility and then the last one is the Vikings JJ McCarthy year to Darnell would be the 44.2 million franchise tag they have the 24th pick and they have 60 million in cap space and they're a team we mentioned them earlier when we're talking about the Super Bowl odds that's a team where the odds could shift pretty dramatically like 32 to1 Right now they do a couple moves and a couple things all of a sudden I could see them getting the getting the bump watching them Green Bay
is the other one that I think we just kind of have to see how March and April go for these teams yeah it's like with darnold if you look at it on the whole he probably performed statistically like the 14th or 16th best starter in the NFL So that's kind of the bar you need JJ McCarthy to clear you don't need him to be like a top five quarterback it's like with that system with a good offensive coach with Justin Jefferson Jordan Addison can you upgrade as ects of the offensive line your offense really could
be better next year than it was this year and then you just put your faith in Brian Flores on the defensive side of the ball so yeah that's the whole point of drafting McCarthy is that he's on a Rookie deal you don't have to pay darnold anymore you can upgrade other areas of the roster well one thing one question with them with him is would he be the number one pick in this draft if teams knew he was 100% healthy because I think people like McCarthy last year McCarthy is a draft prosp seems like it's
higher than cam Ward or Sanders this year right and we're talking about how cam ward has to be in the top three so my guess would be You know so you have to almost think of that way for the Vikings like we we used this Capital last year with this great season didn't endend the way we wanted it but now we have cap space and this guy who's coming in who' be the number one pick in the draft potentially yeah you're right I think he probably would be I think everybody you know the people I've
heard and like and respect who do this stuff have mostly said that the quarterbacks this year would certainly Go uh below the top four guys from last year so I think you're right can I give you one more crazy wild card trade and then we'll go please just for your reaction JJ McCarthy for Herbert wow the Chargers say no oh I think they say no I just wanted to I wanted to talk it out I love it yeah har like ah I didn't love what I what I got from my guy last year you know
who won me a title McCarthy yeah I'd have some cap Space like I'm really interested in what the Chargers are doing because it seems like BOS is out of there and and it's that's not as big of a deal as it probably is on paper because if you've watched him the last couple years I don't think he's been Mr reliable but it's a big foundational piece for them that didn't totally work out and you think about what happened with them last season were a lot of things lined up schedule you know some of the pieces
They had and now I I don't like their scenario nearly as much this year yeah they got to figure out piece right he's a free agent so yeah they they don't have a lot of they don't have a ton of talent like they've got good offensive tackles they've got Herbert they've got makoni so that's a nice sort of foundation I guess for the offense I don't know if you trust Greg Roman to make the most out of those pieces and then defensively it's kind of has to be All coaching unless they can really add some
upgrades here this off season so you're working on your annual 50 best free agents ever uh for this season list that's right I got the tab up right here T Higgins has been number one on a lot of lists who's my number one guy I want the Patriots to get yeah um is there a scenario where the Bengals keep T Higgins at a huge price and pay Chase and pay burrow and have a competent football team because I don't understand How they would do it you can do it Joe burrow has talked about hey the
Eagles did it we can figure it there are ways you can do it where you pay big money up front you spread that cash out over the course of the have way more money than the bals the bals are cheap yeah you can't do it if you're cheap yeah I do love though burrow is actually acting he he's doing an NBA player impersonation have you noticed that this he's like going out Being like we need to do this we need to pay this like he is taking control of the team like putting pressure on ownership
and the front office that if you guys don't do this like it's on you I'm telling anyone who puts a microphone in front of my face what I think we should be with this organization I think it's been kind of cool and I don't I don't know that you see a lot of quarterbacks go out there usually they're like you know that's not my job You know I just I like him but business yeah so that that's been a pretty fun storyline for me over the last whatever two three months well I'm sure he's looking
at it like dude I want Chason Higgins like like we're gonna be awesome if we just have the three of us and we'll figure out the rest but you still like the eagles they have a great owner and uh who's you know perfectly willing to spend money spend money up front that's the game you have to do if You're going to play it that way and we the the Bengals have been cheap I'm dealing with this right now with the patriots the patriots have been cheap for the last 10 years they have some real opportunity
now cap space with the Drake May rookie contract to spend aggressively are they gonna do it you know are they gonna actually show out the cash they haven't done it for a decade we'll see yeah um I'll give you my dream scenario for the pets then We'll go okay trading back from four to six with the Raiders and either getting a future first or the Raider second and a fourth something like that um and then taking Mason Graham or the left tackle who's ever left the left tackle might be a guard might be a tack
whatever I'll take I'll take either of those we just need good players T Higgins signing him your linebacker I'm taking Him is that okay are you are you okay with him being a pat next year because he's coming I don't know I think if the Eagles make one move they're going to try to keep him but go I'm listening they could overpay like you said what's the price I think the floor is probably around 14 million and if a team wants to blow him away with a contract it's going to be up around 18 million
I would say good come to New England and then uh and Then I'm best player available after that in the draft because we need players everywhere that would be my dream scenario get a get a get an asset from the Raiders because the Raiders feel a little gamey and desperate to me um and go all out for Higgins all out and then there's if Parsons is actually on the table I think they have to investigate that one and if it was you know even with the fourth pick I don't really like Trading top five picks
for you know guys in their mid 20s who are making big money I don't know if that's an awesome NFL recipe but for Parsons I think you have to think about it right yeah I mean Parson it's like that khil Mack deal back in the day I mean I I it might be the biggest trade since like the Ricky Williams trade or something if he were actually to get dealt when you're talking about a Hall of Fame Player Premium position in his prime uh pretty Much 31 teams would be interested but Garrett makes me more
nervous older little erratic as a guy I think there's been some weird stuff over the years uh the team's not doesn't seem to ever be that good with him and I I I just to give up like a top five pick for that and have to pay him all that money I don't like is that really Chang my destiny I don't see it I think he's like the final piece for a team that can cont like the bills the Eagles the commanders A team that's like Hey we're trying to win right now the age is
the only thing really for me I think he's been durable he's been productive he's been on some bad teams but uh I would say at least like a first and maybe a second that turns into a first something like that is is what I think the price what's Parson worth if the Dallas calls the Pats and says we're ready to move on Parsons we need your fourth pick plus blank it starts at two first round picks I think it might get to three first round picks it might get to two first round picks and two
second round picks like I'm not even having a conversation without two first round picks and again it's just bad management by the Cowboys I I think to even be considering something like that when you when you lucked into the thing with the Cowboys sorry I got to go on one last rant yeah they they get Dak Prescott in the fourth round they get a number one wide Receiver in CD lamb outside the top five they get Micah Parson the best maybe the best defensive player in football outside the top five like they've nailed the hardest
things to nail and they can't figure out the other stuff and that's why the Cowboys are the Cowboys but I'm with you Jerry Jones still uh actor of the year for that performance in land man did I tell you my story on that bill did win the no you did not we we were watching my wife actually paused The screen looked at me to be like he could have been one of the greatest actors of this generation he could have been Marin brand amazing stuff uh she when's your free agent piece coming out uh now
I think it should be out Monday morning next week top 50 free agents is Higgin first you I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it based on who's gonna be the most expensive to least expensive that's my plan okay this year so you got to take in positional Value and maybe a quarterback we just talked about to differentiate the ringer content might be first on my list all right great great tease uh and we can listen to you on the ringer NL show as well and the Philly special a show that uh I've been trying
not to listen to because uh I like when actually I'll start listening again because I like when the Philly fans are unhappy I don't want to hear Happy Philly fans I like Philly fans freaking out about Paul George's podcast and embiid having to have a bone taken from his hip to put in his that that's the the Philly content I want good to see you she good to see you thanks all right my friend Dave Bernard is here he is an executive producer of The White Lotus and a bunch of good stuff jury duty what
else give us give do your cred credentials really fast Immaculate Sydney Sweeney movie I'm very proud of came out last year um Superstore super very successful White House plumbers Woody harlson Justin thorough underappreciated series uh Bill like ah bad trip on Netflix Eric Andre Tiffany hsh movie right Seven Days in Hell Andy Samberg Sports mockumentary on HBO that was one of your first things right do the quick backstory of how you got into this because you didn't start as producer no I well I I I was 14 grew up in Washington DC walking through a
mall come across a movie set classic movie first kid Sinbad I somehow was that a movie yeah first first kid with Sinbad I don't know I don't know if I saw that one should we put that on rewatch or no by the way it's Sinbad as a secret surface agent like and a kid get the first kid gets kidnapped and Sinbad rescues him it's a great wow that sounds great great movie um and I smooth talk my way past the Pas and I like met Sinbad met the director like oh sit in these chairs I
sat in the The director chairs and I'm like this is what I want to do when I grow up so yeah I started in the mail room at UTA and kind of hustled and you're a yeah I forgot this you're a mail room guy yeah I was like very obsessed with starting at the bottom I'm like what's the lowest level I can start at and so bnie James is like that I I always think of myself as I'm the bronny James of producers it's really that's how I view myself and I Started off in the
mail room and I will that's where I read my first Bill Simmons column UT I think I had a friend of mine at UTA who was in the mail room with me who kept telling people that he had signed you Ryan Hayden at UTA and we were like wow you signed Bill Simmons we were like 23 that true because I was a huge Paradise uh Hotel fan yeah and you would write about par Hotel Paradise Hotel and the Celtics obviously and sports and I was obsessed with your Columns um and I met Mike White when
I worked at UT and that was 20 years ago and so we've been working together ever since and I then we Mike and I had a company together I then at one point he came to me and he's like I'm wasting your energy you're way too ambitious for me go start your own company you can always work with me but you're too ambitious for me so I started my own company and and yeah so you went from UTA mail room worked your way up a Little bit but then eventually landed with Mike White and you
open a company with him yeah I was his assistant and this is right around when like funnier diet started and all these digital you know great times yeah early 2010s yes and I started producing digital shorts and I would do I did a lot of the first funer di videos I did this because I was obsessed with the hills Mike and I were both obsessed with the hills who wasn't one of the best shows ever made honestly And we did a spoof of the hills with James Franco and munes and that's the first thing I
ever produced was basically I sat in an office and I transcribed to Audrina Justin Bobby scenes wow James Franco played Justin Bobby um I remember this actually that's the first thing I ever produced and I drove around West Hollywood looking for a bar to let us shoot at it and uh not theas it was a bar called um I can't remember the it was a bar on Santa Monica Boulevard and they let me shoot there for free and everyone showed up and and yeah and that was the first thing I produced and then I was
just hustling I was always really ambitious as an assistant and at one point Mike came to me as his assistant he goes I just got a show picked up at HBO called enlon the pilot he's like do you want to produce it and I was his assistant I was like yeah so Laura D Laura D I was like 27 28 and I would show up to these rooms Mike Lombardo and Sagel and Laura D and and I didn't realize how young I was at the time I just was like yeah I deserve to be here
for whatever reason and they were probably looking at me like who's this who's this kid that's in the room and I produced the show and yeah I was the one only producer and that that's how it got going that's how it got going so what are the tricks before we talk to the history of White Lotus which is fascinating what are the what are the Tricks you learn with producing a TV show that like the common person wouldn't understand because people just see producer it's a name that gets thrown around when you live in LA
you're like what do you do I'm a producer and people like oh yeah and they don't really know what that means or what you do it's embarrassing how many people say they're like it really is embarrassing but you know I I play basketball like got my my high school basketball coach Mike hibs in DC who who coach at the math one of the most famous high school basketball programs in the country I and so I was the glue guy I was a guy like taking charge I was a Kurt rambus of my of my team
and that's how I view producing really I'm the glue guy like you know we're having trouble closing the production designers deal I will step in and close the deal you know casting locations deal with the network deal with notes deal with release they Deal with marketing you know I think the best producers know where there's kind of an issue and step in and they kind of you know take over an issue or prevent issues from coming but you know on a day-to-day level I can't tell you what my day will be just things will present
themselves and again I think the best producers can kind of put their ego aside and step in and handle any situation so you're glue guy Problem Solver yeah so it's like not little more Little more important than finny Smith yeah almost like Andre Gala mid-20's Warriors range I will take that yeah yeah but I I like to think of myself more like an Austin Reeves guy like if I need to like jury duty for example was an idea that kind of I originated with another producer Todd Schulman and we were kind of figuring out how
could we Todd worked with Sasha and I worked with Eric Andre did bad trip and we're like how can we take what we did and put that In TV and we came up with this idea of jury duty we hired the writers and kind of originated it and was really creative really was really the engine creatively and then on something like White Lotus Mike White is a genius That's Mike White's Creative Vision and my role in that is really kind of to be there by his side and do whatever Mike needs me to do so
I I you know like to think I can go both I can do both things like I can originate things creatively like Jury duty or White House plumbers is something I originated or if it's something like Superstore or White Lotus I can step in with a Creator and kind of help them get their Vision made and hopefully make it as you know as good as it can be and what's the right number of projects to have going at the same time because this is part of the problem is if you start doing well then you
start grabbing and all a sudden you're doing like 10 things and you're not doing any Of them well I have trouble saying no I have trouble with boundaries but I haven't you know that's a good question I haven't found the answer to that yet but you know the problem with our business is you never know what's going to get made what's not going to get made and why it gets made and that's kind of part of the White Lotus story yeah which I'll get into but so I'm I'm a I maybe have too many projects
but you know again you you never what's going to Actually come to fruition and you know producers only get paid in success so you have to have a lot going to make a living the timeline of it is always so fascinating to me when people like get a deal done it's crazy just getting the deal done you have to have the meetings you have to talk people into it when you do it how many months is that that's like four to six just closed a deal this morning that took eight months right and why it
took eight months it could have Taken two weeks if people just go on the phone and go here the issues that's eight months right so couldn't tell you why eight months best case scenario four months but somewhere four to eight months maybe even like a year well when we get into the White Lotus story actually proves it could be a week it could be a week but that's where the case where HBO loves creators yeah they love Mike he had an idea and they're like done go do it let's go a little bit PR that's
an anomaly yes it's it is the it's it is an anomaly the it usually takes four to eight months to get a deal done right for whatever reason so you get the deal done so let's say four to eight yeah now you got to start writing outlines scripts that could be like another year could be another year then the studio network will sit on it it did like when we turned Mike turned in lights in in on a Friday that's the first show I produced they green L it on A Monday and I was like
oh this business is super easy like this is this is how work like when the rookie wins the Super Bowl title in the first year and thinks they're G to be back every year exactly yeah and I'm like oh this is easy and that is that is the anomaly I usually can take a month two months three months for a studio Network to read something do the internal economics budget it and then go on vacation we got we gotta push this to January because Bob's away yeah Yeah June July where're it's June July for whatever
reason it's when kids are you know out of school vacation it's August August is Toronto there's a bunch of stuff in August meeting gets cancelled Oh I thought we were meeting Wednesday we got to push it when's your next availability I can't do it and then that's 10 more days right September is can whatever like there's you know whatever South by whatever it is so then it's October so things take so much Longer than you think it's gon to take it's the most incompetent system I've ever seen the way the way it's done and how
hard it is just to get balls going but then when you actually get going yeah now you're in the outline process then they have to approve that then you're in like all right now it's like the giant Advanced outline they have to prove that then it's like the first possible pilot script and that goes and this could like another year and a half Right 100% and then and then you at some point you go wait what what are we making why are we making this and you kind of you hope after a year and a
half you're still excited about the idea you sold and the ideas still makes sense and or still relevant or still viable because that's part of the problem like culture shifts things happen things that were interesting a year and a half ago aren't interesting anymore White House plumbers was an idea my dad my dad's a My dad's from Hungary he's an immigrant he he um and end up in DC a doctor he would call me with this idea for I'm not exaggerating five years he called me and I would go to Whole Foods on Santa Monica
and I'd like fill up my food after work and he just would pitched me in this idea I put him on mute I wouldn't listen and finally to get him to shut up I'm like okay I'll come to DC I'll meet this guy who has some interesting story because everyone has An interesting story right so I I was on my way to Montreal to shoot something else I literally land I left the airport I gave myself like two hours when I'm at the sky and he tells me the story of the white house plumbers and
this is probably 2016 and I was I leave the hospital the guy was in the hospital and I was like this is an incredible story right my dad was right I flyed Montreal I think about it for a year I finally start meeting With writers so do you think about it like what's it like as a movie what's it like as the scripted you're trying to figure out the best model for it and it's funny it actually comes back to White Lo of season 3 which is I'm on a flight I see this movie Death
of Stalin which is an incredible movie Armando yucci and I'm like oh my God this is a because the story of White House plumbers and Nixon Watergate is is a comedy it's a tragic you know comedy and So I'm like oh this would be so funny in this tone and then I saw Jason Isaacs and I was like Jason Isaac is brilliant and that comes back later in White Lotus but Jerry West Jason Isaac yeah no didn't he play Jerry West no who play oh that was Jason uh Jason CL yeah got my Jason scre
but this is 2016 right so then I White House plumbers I pitched to writers we pitched to Woody harelson signs on Pitch to Justin thow signs on we sell it do you feel like it's like a Party where the when the first star comes on then it just becomes like dominoes yeah yeah because you're like once you get the first person on it's easier to get the second you're like oh yeah Woody's coming to this party like it's way that's what happened when those so 30 for 30 we got Barry levenson and he vetted the
whole once we had him it made it made the next like five people easy but we had to get him to get it going by the way I think I'm like 0 for 70 with my 30 for 30 pitches at some just just I don't control it anymore but um so then so this is 2019 we s HBO they're like we're making this Co happens it's pushed 21 2021 2022 and then all of a sudden an an idea that has never been made in 40 years I get a call oh you know this Julia Roberts
Shawn Penn project called gaset that's getting shot the exact same time I'm shooting White House plumbers which is the exact same story and so this idea I've been Thinking about for six years which has never existed all of a sudden my show comes out two months after the exact same show is something I can't control so then at that point it's like oh we're the second Watergate show about G Gordon lady and Howard hunt and that's just the difficulty of producing it's like that's something that's so out of my control you put all this energy
into something and then by the time my show comes out it's kind of an Afterthought oh we've already seen that show saw it on Stars what's your what's your best thing that you had that fell apart but it still haunts you at night the same way like the 1985 finals haunts me for the Celtics that's a great question um you don't have to say what the project exactly was but was there one that you're just like the one that got away yeah oh yeah I have several that that like kind of slipped through my fingers
and you kind of think About those for years and I have probably two of those that I'm like if I just moved a little quicker or just put a little bit more energy into this or you know um yeah but I do they die or do they just go in a coma what happens is people get busy and if you miss a window with people then they're off doing other things and I had a show that had three elements that then went off to become massive stars but I had them before their thing and it
was in the World of Music which is a world I love and been trying to figure out a show or movie in and it just was like about to come together and someone hesitated and I didn't push and then then all three of those elements have gone off to become big stars it's like so you can't get the band back together right just too hard it's like having the OKC Thunder in 2010 but when they're on rookie contract that's it you make a yeah it's literally it's exactly it and I just hesitated and made I
made like I probably put my energy towards the wrong thing and then it went away is there a moment when you know things are going well because people are now approaching with projects in a way like can you feel that happening in real time yeah we are we have a mutual friend I'm not going to name them when you start getting certain invites to things you're like things must be going well getting those invites right yeah yeah so but yeah I mean I Think like it's a momentum business I think people love to chase momentum
and and as you kind of start to build momentum become slightly easier but not it's never totally easy it's never totally easy it's always hard because you always have to have the right idea at the right time the right configuration of elements and that momentum makes it easier to get your calls returned or get people attached but you still it always comes down to The writer it always comes back to that and and uh yeah but yeah but yes so the ways it can go wrong because we see this when I do the rewatchables research
and it's always so interesting with the casting with ifs or this movie fell through and then they revitalized it years later the same idea but it's with totally different people a different director the ways it can go wrong like your music scenario where you have the people you have the right people in your Head but then too much time passes and you lose them and you just can't find the next batch of people or you have it built around a star there's a delay in the production something bad happens you lose the star and now
the studio doesn't want to make it and then the other one that's the famous one is the person who backed it on the studio side or the Hollywood side they switch jobs or they got fired and now the new guy new guy or new lady comes in it's like well that Wasn't my project I don't want to do this I'm going through that right now now I had a project that we had like nine biders on sold it to a studio movie and now to Paramount and now we're going through like could you have predicted
two no it's probably three years ago now that the entire company would be turned over and you know going through this merger and so but yeah I mean that's really it like or the star of your movie is going through a divorce and you don't You know there's so many elements that kind of come in to making things on set and they're not focused and you're in production you have the perfect script the perfect director but the star is distracted so they're not giving them the right per you know the right performance but I learned
my lesson so I did this movie with Sydney Sweeney Immaculate and and basically Euphoria was starting this is 2023 and they're like Euphoria starting February 19th and you have a moment you're like okay we have a six- week window with Sydney the script's not ready do we try to rush it into production or do we wait till after Euphoria and I'm like I'm not waiting because after Euphoria who knows and by the way we so we rush into production and I'm very proud of the movie I think the movie turned out great yeah but then
Euphoria doesn't get shot for two more years so it's I was talking about this With cdy yesterday I'm like we we're now they're finally back into production two years later but we rushed into this thing and and she killed herself she worked six day weeks that she goes to do the movie with Glenn Powell Works six day weeks to get it in before Euphoria and then Euphoria doesn't happen for two years and but I learned my lesson I'm I'm never going to just wait you have to like when it's s you know it's burn in
the hand you got to take it yeah because You also see this stuff where um like what happened with uh levenson on that show where he starts to do the idol yeah then the idol becomes this whole thing that ties up and then that Entourage I'm not Entourage uh Euphoria cast they're on hold they lose the momentum from the series but that also happens with all these other projects too where you think oh we're gonna start as soon as they're wrapped up with season 4 and then it's like oh no they're actually not going to
Be wrapped up right you have a whole set a whole system in place that now is on hold and then you have to decide whether you want to pun on the actor or not right exactly do you replace them or you know and and I think it's like it's it's an imperfect science Hollywood like and you you know on the rewatchables you're watching these movies and it's funny people are like how do they make it's so obviously bad or how do they make such a bad movie and I think you know having Made things that
aren't as good as they probably should be I think you're there's there's a great quote from a br from um Project Runway and I always think about it it's from like from the first couple Seasons where Tim gun is like when you're in the monkey house for too long you stop smelling the [ __ ] and like sometimes you're just that's great you're just like getting in it and you're I think about it all the time and you're like You're in it and it's like you're so deep inside of it you're not seeing what feels
obvious from the outside and so you can watch a movie 10 years later and go why didn't they realize the third act didn't work or this is such bad casting but sometimes you're so deep inside of it you stop see the [ __ ] right and and that's why it's it's a tough business one of the things that I'm always obsessed about especially we've talked about in the podcast a bunch is why are There are so many cooks in the kitchen with these projects when especially when you're talking TV the entire history of TV and
what's worked and what's not worked it's usually like One Vision it's like a couple Executives trusting the person who had the vision and everybody kind of clearing out and letting them do their thing and that's been most of the great shows we've ever had and I don't understand why Hollywood just doesn't obey this because what I mean Mike Mike Why don't I talk about all the time there's there's three producers on White Lotus there's Mike there's me and there's Mark kmine who's our line producer and what happens is you know the star of the show
has a manager so that manager is a producer the star is a producer it's based on a piece of Ip that IP has a producer attached the writer of that piece of Ip is attached they bring it to a non-writing producer who has a deal at X networker Studio There's two people that work at that company so all of a sudden you're on notes calls with seven people right like when the zoom is so big you can't fit everyone on your phone something is probably gone wrong yes and that's probably not going to turn out
well then you have seven people who have seven ideas who have seven interpretations of what good is and all of a sudden you have a a writer who's trying to service seven different people it's never it's Never going to end up well in all the things I've done that have been successful all have one Clear Vision and you're all in of that Clear Vision I think when there's too many Egos and too many people weighing in it just weighs everything down we see that on the documentary side too with a lot of the stuff I've
been involved with the the more people weighing in and one of the things I try to do as a producer of those and I it doesn't always work is You try to funnel the notes through one person so at least they only hear from one voice but like when the Celtics thing I just did which I'm really proud of I think it turned out great but they're you know we had the Celtics it's their I they have notes you have the NBA they're going to weigh in with their notes and then we had our production
side and it's like if they if you can pass a Tipping Point especially if Somebody's just in the abyss with whatever they're working on and they're just hearing all these different things and notes are conflicting it can really [ __ ] them up they every it seems like every showrunner director whatever you're going to hit this dark place with what you're working on and you need at least one person to be like I got you I got you and that's that's kind of my role with with Mike on white lus but also that's a role
that I try to it's a Role I try to service in every production I do which is trying to trying to kind of push on bad notes and trying to help creators writers directors filter opinions what do I think in my own taste what do I think is a good idea what do I think is a bad idea and I think that's really and picking your battles right like pick your battles maybe maybe give them this one because it's not worth fighting about because I really need to win this One later a th% and like
what is a what is a you know marginal move what is like what are because it's all taste right like producing is all taste all comes down to like opinion and what what is a what's a lateral move that you can give to a network or Studio or whomever to then buy back later on right oh we have a great oh my I just remember we had a great story from from enlightened where the the network was giving was hammering us on this one episode and there was a Piece of dialogue that Mike just loved
it was so lateral like whether it was in or not didn't really matter for some reason HB was hammering us and we sent them back a cut with a taken out to get to make them feel good about it but then we were like we're going to deliver the line in so we pretended that we had taken it out we deliver it with the line in and then they didn't notice of course because they they're probably doing eight different things right they're Giving notes and then we go to the premiere the in the network HB
was like you know we should Premiere that episode was the episode that we had switched out the dialogue so we're like holy [ __ ] they're going to notice in the premiere and so we we play the and Mike and I are sitting next to all the HBO Executives who given us his notes and they never noticed they didn't remember and then we sent them all t-shirts after the premiere with the line of Dialogue and by they were like what does that mean they had no they have no memory of it but it's that's a
good example it's like you're getting these notes from people and they're like it's a Monday morning for them Tuesday morning they probably forgot what they said and ultimately you got to trust your creative instincts and and by that episode one of our best episodes we ever did and that line that we took out I swear is so often quoted from Enlighten Wow well you know part of the problem is people feel like sometimes they just have to give notes always it's or else it doesn't look like they gave a [ __ ] or did or
watched it or did their job or cared yeah so it's like so here's six extra notes just because I want to make sure my email is long enough or you have like 19 people on the zoom right and every person is like if I don't say something I feel like I'm a loser so then everyone has to weigh in with Something that is like yeah just to weigh in and I've been in those positions where you're on these zooms you don't really have any to add but you feel like you have to otherwise you look
like a total loser so right yeah it's a it's a it's a weird process one of the best the best behind the scenes experience I had was when we did the Andre the Giant doc because they just trusted us yeah and it was you know Jason was the director who's great I Don't know if you met him but we kind of figured out the framework and it just kind of went smoothly and it was one of those things where afterwards I was like man I wish wish that's just how it went there just like a
couple people figuring out everyone else trusts those people and there you go we'll talk about how unique White Lotus is but we we'll take a quick break and then we'll talk about uh this is a unicorn type of show anyway break okay so White Lotus which you were Involved with intimately from the very beginning the perfect kind of TV show from a production standpoint in a lot of ways you're not relying on a star because you can change the cast whenever you want you have one person right in the entire show almost as like an
eight hour movie you have a network that completely trusts that person and you kind of have a blank canvas to be like all right we have this hotel here's here's the premise we're gonna dive into This we can change locations every year it's a show that I I'm sure you probably thought was going to be a one-year show and now you can to do eight or nine seasons of it and you guys are controlling it and they trust you this is like impossible it never works out this way so why does it not ever work
out this way I mean because I mean the reality is White Lotus happened because of Confluence of events that could never be replicated and I give HBO immense Credit for trusting Mike and I I mean it's funny it's like it's kind of feels like a one of those bands you're like oh you're a one hit wonder like over overnight success and you've been grinding for 15 years to make it yeah and so Mike first pitched me a version of White Lotus probably 2008 we were in Spain together 2008 we were walking in tarfa Spain I'll
never forget it and he pitches me we're like just walking and we were There Paramount I don't know Paramount was paying Mike to write School of Rock too and Mike was like I don't want to and I was working I was Mike's assistant he's like I don't want to be in La like why don't we just go to Spain I'll write it you can like do whatever you want and and I'll just sit and write and you can like live in Spain I'm like I'm single I'm in my 20s yeah sounds amazing so we went
off to Spain we were just walking one day and he pitches him this idea About a hotel show Upstairs Downstairs Hotel show and the central relationship is a couple that's on a honeymoon and one is Rich one is marrying into money and the show kind of starts with the groom returning and the bride is not there and you don't know what's happened and I'm like that's incredible and wow cuz that cuz so that's 2008 yeah because the whole premise of we're starting this show but something weird happened you're going to eventually discover what Happened it's
like a very late 2010s premise and so we go in and then it's also an anthology Series yeah so we go into HBO we pitched idea and the feedback was Anthology series are not a thing it'll never be a thing not interested I wonder what what so why would they say that because at that point it really hadn't been a thing because it's like they're talking about like the I'm trying to think some of the stuff they did I guess this before true This is before True Detective so this True Detective was really the thing
that I think broke open Anthology Series right so that's 2013 Range yeah and I and I and I get from their perspective it's like you're gon to start a show the hardest thing is a pilot right like getting people engaged and interested in characters and then to replicate that every season it's really hard and get people re-engage it's almost impossible but the funny thing is the model you Laid out earlier where you then don't have to rely on a fancy famous member it's actually like a better model it's incredible well well the star of White
Lotus is Mike White that's he's a star and so so HBO passes and it's an idea just kind of sitting out there one of the executives at HBO who heard it then goes to Amazon and kind of goes oh what was that at honeymoon idea you know blah blah blah why don't we trying to do that here so Mike goes great we go we talk to Them about this honeymoon show and at that point it was a show about this couple that's traveling from and I think Mike was kind of inspired he had gone on
a trip and Phil Jackson was actually it was actually Phil Jackson who inspired it the Zen master yes Mike and Mike is not Mike is not a sports guy he was I can't remember which country he was in but he went from like you know this great hotel to that great hotel to another great Hotel within the same Country and Phil Jackson was on the same he was like oh we must have the same you know travel agent who had booked us into the same exact hotels so Mike kept seeing him at every Hotel so
he was like okay this honeymoon couple basically is going to travel to different hotels and he's going to they're going to see the same couples or same people CU they're the same travel agent so we go and Mike is in Sri Lanka he's working on this honeymoon show when everyone at Amazon Gets fired and then they replace Roy price who was running Amazon at the time with another executive and that executive just didn't get the show the show dies so you're calling it the honeymoon show and the new guy's like the honeymoon what the [
__ ] is this he's out gone so now's our second strike right so that's 2015 2016 oh my God 2019 come we had met Jennifer kulage in 2006 doing a movie called gentleman Broncos great Movie underappreciated Fox search like movie with Jared H and Mike and I I'll never forget it we go in we didn't know Jennifer at the time we go in to have dinner and we see Jennifer at the same restaurant and she's literally sitting at this restaurant and she has her menu this close to her face she's staring at the menu and
we're looking at her across a restaurant we're like who is this person and she has Jennifer has terrible eyesight the only way she could read the Menu I'm not joking literally it's this close to her face and she's just shamelessly reading the menu like this and we just kind of fell in love with her and we became great friends the three of us and Mike was always inspired about writing a show for her so 2019 comes and she Mike has this idea for a show called St py and he writes four episodes of the show
and we go out in 2019 we pitch the show called ST py which was about Jennifer kulage playing A version of Tanya mad version of like a cele actress who's going to and accept an award in Sri Lanka and there's a murder mystery everyone passes everyone passes and we're basically told you know Jennifer is not a TV star whatever it is so now we have the honeymoon show Mike was thinking about we have the couple murder mystery show we have Jennifer and Sri Lanka so those three elements we have kind of simmering and Mike is
being pigeon hold now as like incredibly Creative guy but can't have like a giant show he's not like a big taste guy he's like a like a small critics love him type of guy exactly classic he's an underdog really like and he was everyone looked at him oh he's brilliant but not commercial yeah and Mike and I had been working together at this point for 15 years we' made a lot of amazing stuff together but nothing had really broken through yet 2020 comes Mike writes this great script that was said in Sweden That was a
road trip comedy with him and Aubrey Plaza that Mike was gonna star in with Aubrey wow and we get the financing Co happens financing falls apart it's July of 2020 Mike is like despondent he goes on a road trip by himself I go on a road trip to Colorado and HBO calls out of the blue it's July of 2020 and they go um we don't have any programming is there anything that is co co yeah Co by the way yeah is there anything you can do in a CO bubble that you can do Quickly cheaply
that can be on the air in 21 it was over email and Mike goes yeah I got it and they Gog great screen lit like that just like that and Mike literally didn't know what it was but he had been thinking about these three different shows over the last 15 years and that he combined all those elements and that became White Lotus and we basically had one so it's honeymoon show Jennifer coolage and it's a honeymoon show it's a show that was in Sri Lanka That some location yeah and I'll never forget it was like
it was probably August of 2020 we get on a phone call with HBO and they're like you have 30 days to make this good luck and Mike's like I'm not going to I'm not going at this point also we had two weeks to find a location what people don't know is originally we were going to do it in Australia and basically we found a hotel in Australia but we couldn't get our covid vaccines vaccinations visas in Time so we basically were like we pivoted to Hawaii because it was the one place that we could get
in and God bless Four Seasons Maui it's the only hotel in the world that said yeah come shoot this during Co and so good career move by the Four Season great career move and um Mike was like I'm not going to Hawaii and shooting this in 30 days there's no way I'm doing a season in 30 days and I said to him I go this is what we're gonna do I've never said this and N doesn't know this I go we're gonna show up in Hawaii we're gonna get them pregnant as they say in Hollywood
we're gonna like get them invested they're gonna spend enough money that we're going to go actually we need another 15 million to make the show and he he said to me he goes if you're wrong about this I'll kill you listen what he said to me I will kill you that's G be season two exactly and so we went to Hawaii Mike had one script and He didn't even know what the ending was Mike wrote the scripts without knowing where it was going because we had to we got there in September of 2020 we had
to shoot by the end of October we had basically six weeks for Mike to write the season cast the season hire crew Scout it and shoot it because we had to be done by Christmas to get it on the air 2021 and we arrived and Mike just started writing we were in a 14-day quarantine And Mike wrote almost the entire season in those 14 days wow so he's like Bradley Cooper and Limitless just cranking it out yeah basically he just kind of poured out of him but it was really he had been thinking about the
show for 15 years it had been really those elements of things he thought about and I remember I remember we got to a point where like we had 30 days to shoot it we needed 48 days and I had to call HBO and go hey we're 18 days over Budget it's a lot of money and to their credit they go we'll give it to you just go and do it well that point they probably had like two things going because nobody could film anything and and and as I had told you like strategically we had
they had spent enough money where I knew it was like a sunk cost or like okay we got to give this money just to get something out of it and you know I think we that was the hardest Production I've ever been through because in Hawaii at about point if you got covid you go into a hotel room for 14 days so during that production we had so many people get covid and that was also a point where if you were close to that person you go get Co so we had actors getting Co that
would go away for 14 days and we would have to rej juggle the schedule we would have to shoot seven days in like we have to do everything humanly possible and another Thing people don't know is we actually never finished we were it was two days before we wrapped and I was like okay we're gonna make it through I get a phone call from HBO that someone has tested positive for covid and it was Jennifer kage's assistant who was basically in the room with her every single day and we were out shooting that famous boat
scene where Jennifer's dumping the ashes she's crying and I had to call the boat I wasn't on the boat I Had to call them the ad and go Jennifer basically it's like a close contact you need to come back and Jennifer's gonna go into a hotel room 14 days and we're gonna have to shut down right before Christmas and they turned the boats around and I'll never forget Jennifer's face coming off that boat it was heartbreaking because she knew she was going to have to miss Christmas and New Year's and basically be stuck in the
hotel room and we shut down and never Finished we basically which was a gift because then Mike goes and edits the show and we eventually found like a 5-day window in February the next year to bring everyone back and at that point too we knew what we were kind of missing we did some re-shoot oh and it was like a gift honestly like at that point it was like the worst thing that could happen and it ended up being a gift we got everyone back somehow and the rest is history you skipped over the casting
Piece of this when you're doing the thing that fast so obviously the show has really good casting but who does that come from is it a team thing or did you hire an awesome casting person or is it just people you and Mike like well mer Tucker who's our casting director Mike and Meredith went to Wesleyan together so they're old friends she's worked she's amazing and we have a great we worked we've all worked together now for a long time but it was so quick that We had to cast people we know and you know
for me like Sydney Sweeney I met her in 2019 and I had only seen her in Euphoria and it's a really specific character yeah and she comes in and she actually pitches me a TV show that I pass on which I regret and um I met her in this meeting and I was like holy [ __ ] she's so different from her character you meet her in person and I think people don't understand how good of an actress she is yeah because if you meet Her in person you go every character she's playing is so
different from who she is and so we were casting up hard and it it was against type right because at that point she'd only played this character in Euphoria who was very dramatic right not funny I meet her in this meeting she's so bubbly she's so personable she's so funny in person and I'm like she would be so smart in that role because it's unexpected and so that's kind of how that happened Connie Briten was someone that we were friends with um and Mike knew for a long time Mike had worked with her before we
knew she'd be perfect Steve Z was Mike's brilliant idea that he kind of pulled that out of nowhere we were we were having trouble casting the part and he's like what about Steve Z brilliant marray Bartlett we weren't familiar with and that's Mike's Brilliance like he Murray Bartlett auditioned and out of a 100 people he kind of identified Mur just Saw it it it would' be great and Alex sario came in the first second we saw her audition she like just nailed it she was amazing Jake Lacy same thing audition we had to do these
things really fast Natasha rothwell's like actually a great example of I'm really close to Natasha's agent um and I wasn't familiar with Natasha uh shaa her agent called me and was like just hammering me hammering me sent me some stuff on Natasha I was like Oh she's she's brilliant she won audition and we're just like [ __ ] it let's just go like that was like like we had to pull the trigger should end up being brilliant and so it was really like a combination of people we knew and just quick decisions and you're thinking
this is a one and done we're we're out of here how did we how do we pull this off this is finished not even that but like we really the budgets of White Lotus season one were were are minuscule Compared to some of their other dramas we were also like this could just never air it was like such like you know at that point there were like it was like a CO experiment they get us a bunch of money to go shoot a show in a bubble by the way was some awful covid experiments this
was by far the most successful one I think but it really was this this show never happens if not for Co honestly in the co bubble oh thank you co Thank You by way thank you co but um yeah I I Think that uh if you had told me then and Mike and I were talking about this the other day if you had told me five years later I would be in Bangkok like at a Marvel siiz Premiere and they're like we're walking out in front of 5,000 people yelling our names I would tell you
that's impossible so you a show HBO loves it I started hearing about it but like well before it came out like hey there's this show we have it's it has a chance yeah I knew you know because the Show is so different right it's so out there and it's really just you know it's a lot of conversations around a table and it's it's there's not a lot of plot until episode five when there that robbery happens nothing really happens but there's two genius things though one is that you don't know where it's going yeah and
you kind of want us see but the other thing that plays into the co piece you got to go on vacation in Hawaii yeah which was great you just got to go Somewhere that wasn't like your house with the same family or friends that you were just staring at for the last nine months and I and just being completely honest we didn't think the murder mystery element would be a thing and we were cutting the pilot and we got a note actually about like because in the pilot episode um you you introduced this idea Jake
lace is there talking about the dead body and we got to know like maybe bring that back at the end to call it Back and I remember we're talking like H well people aren't going to really really care about the murder mystery so calling it back would kind of feel it's not really about that and so just it was just like a creative thing that happened and people kind of latched on to it and and for me it was really exciting it was a way into what was ultimately a story about existential ideasm being a
human yeah in just complexity of life and and I knew it's you I made the show And I hav I also haven't I've never talked about this but I went to show three friends of mine and they were the first people I showed the show to and I showed them a locked version of the pilot that had temp music and my friends were like and they're three they're filmmaker friends I trust them and they look at me they go this Show's not good and they go They're it's not good I go what do you mean
they're like yeah this is not a good Show they're like what are you going to do what you know what I'm like and I remember I laughed I was kind of disheartened and one of my friends called me and he'll he's definitely GNA listen to interview who knows who he is and he's like the show's really not good it's not a good show and I don't know and I'm just like I didn't really listen to him and then the only thing that changed was the music and that's the show we kind of Locked and we
we that aired and and I still make fun of my friends obviously to this day about it but I knew the show was going to work when we would show people agents first like agents of clients and they would call me and they go give me the next one I need the next episode like okay I'll see you the next time they're like give me the next episode The Next Episode right at that point I was like oh there's something here that people are kind of hooking Into and you know there's we could never have
predicted it would be a success and let alone we could do three seasons and you know fourth season and and feel very fortunate that HBO trusted us and they just trusted in Mike and they were there was no notes in the creative process because there was no time they just said go make it and we went off and made something and brought it back to them and and you know Casey and Franny and Norris Skinner at HBO they've just known Us for a long time and they deserve great credit for just trusting in the creative
process I remember texting Casey about it like where where's season two and he's like Mike's never doing a season two there's no way I was like how do you not do a season two just go to a different location yeah he's like yeah we know but Mike's that's not how he operates he's not gonna do it so what changed I think the response to the show and I think we just had fun and you know The show really comes out of Mike's passion for travel you know he was on Amazing Race the two se he
just loves to travel is he a Survivor too he was right yeah yeah I mean so much of the show is Survivor I was gonna ask you about that it does feel like Survivor and White Lotus are are not even cousins they might be siblings well that's that's a great story of how Mike ended up on well I mean originally Mike and I applied to CBS for Amazing Race we went we were Wearing matching blue velour jumpsuits we shot a stupid video running around running around um Brentwood I drove down to Elsa gundo I dropped
it in the Box because Mike and I both loved the show and I was Mike's assist and we had this idea like it would be funny if we went on the together CBS called two weeks later and they recast me they're like your your Dynamic is too Hollywood we don't really like the dynamic and eventually Mike ended up With his Dad going on Amazing Race but it was through that experience he ended up on Survivor because he's like Mike is really competitive yeah in a great way and I think he just like he didn't win
Amazing Race and and she's like I'm gonna I I'm gonna win Survivor but um I think K I think at the end of season one we just had such a great experience making the show and like I was saying before Mike is really the star of White Lotus and I think the Anthology Dynamic Allows Mike to be the star and allows not to be beholden to anyone else's schedule and it's all on Mike and the writing and Casey came to us to Casey's credit and said I want to make anything you want to make next
and Mike said let's do season two of of White Lotus and they greenl it without hearing Mike's idea again fully know location know location we didn't know location I mean I get asked all the time of the locations the location process is really Organic and but it's a lot easier for season too I'm guessing well yeah no I mean yes easier to find places to give us hotels to be like yeah come here so but it was still hard it was actually we I thought we were gon to shoot in France and we went to
Italy as a courtesy to HBO because it was an other country had a great rebate better rebate than France we go and we basically saw these crazy heads everywhere in in sicy and poo and this guy told us a story of what what These heads meant there Tesa deor and they tell us a story about this guy who was having an affair and the woman chopped his head off and Mike kind of got inspired by this idea of doing a show about sexual jealousy and sisy ended up being the perfect place um that would have
been a good title sexual jealousy that's a good title for like a Cinemax movie Let's you and I sell that but I mean season 3 it's like a Shan and tweet but now in 2025 just go with us Just but I mean season 3 was actually amazing we were going to shoot in Japan and we went to Thailand as a courtesy to HBO it's the only other country in Southeast Asia that had a rebate that was like film friendly and we were in Chang ma in the north and Mike got bronchitis and he went to
the hospital and the nurses there took such great care of him he kind of fell in love with Thailand and he they put him on this thing called a nebulizer and it's this Really strong steroid and he was up for two nights and he hallucinated and he hallucinated season three of White Lotus and he gets in the van the next day and he pies me what he hallucinated and that's what we shot what yeah and we were like we're shooting in Thailand so by the time we left Thailand we went to Japan we knew we
were shooting in Thailand and Thailand itself is like such a witchy place and you were there for how many months like almost a year Jesus but I love it but that was when I got to know you a little bit and it was you were just out of it yeah how do you you couldn't follow Sports in the same way like nothing I mean do you remember one of our first zooms I fought my dad I don't know if you remember the this we had like a 5:00 a.m. Zoom because was the only time that
worked for all of our yeah the first time we ever met and and I woke up to like a message that my dad was in the hospital I don't remember This and I get on the zoom and we're meeting for the first time and like I said I'm I'm a huge fan of yours and I was so excited to meet you so I didn't want to cancel our Zoom yeah and I woken up like three minutes before a zoom and I get on and I'm like um I'm like really shaking and you're like we can
reschedule like yeah deal with your dad my dad was okay but um but yeah I mean I think uh that was a tough year for all of us like just like the time zones and Being away from family and I would I me mosquitoes the mosquitoes were insane we all we all got Denay shots and a couple people got Denay at that point you're like it's a crap [ __ ] you know do will you get Denay will you end up in the hospital like I would I would go to work like I was like
you in the 1980s Lakers like I would have socks up to my knees I'd have like like like like I Michael Cooper exactly honestly so you're worried about monsoons mosquitoes There's always tsunami thing which is you know by the way not not a theme thing season 3 but it's coming yeah t is coming um but yeah I mean watching sports with the hardest because I I'm a die hard Lakers fan I would be on set and this is this is like the buildup to the playoffs where like nugget series and I would I I didn't
miss a Lakers game I had like VPN I got the ticket I watched every single Lakers game on set regular season playoffs and I would be At the monitors and I'm a really vocal fan so I'm there and like you know watching the Nuggets series Joker's hitting like these [ __ ] ridiculous shots over his head three-pointers follow you know falling out of bounds and I'm like yelling on set yeah L I'm not joking literally if you ask any actor from White Lotus season 3 about this like I'm literally Maniac yeah I'm at the monitors
with my iPad watching what's shooting watching both at the Same time yelling uncontrollably at Jamal Murray who I [ __ ] hate as a Lakers kind of blow that series they should have won that series but yeah I mean Sports I up at like all all like crazy hours when Miss Lakers game and the problem solving so it sounds like Italy was probably the easiest of the three seasons yeah Hawai is the hardest and then Thailand's just a wild card every day Wild Card yeah Hawai was the hardest just because of Co And like yeah
also like you didn't know what Co was at that point like how dangerous it was and I'm a producer I'm not like an epidemiologist yeah and people are looking at you like oh you're a producer you should have the cure for covid or no you know so like people are coming to me for covid advice like plus producing advice so it was it was a very tough spot to be in in season 3 where it got got more into a Groove just the elements of Thailand the heat Mosquitoes you said it's your favorite season it's
the best season I'm really excited for people to to watch it and your three friends think it's another shitty Yeah by way of course it's really slowly paced really sucks by the way you know you know our our dear friend Michael Lasker who I love he called me last night and he was like yeah I love the season I'm on a text thread with people they're talking about how slow it is and I'm like one why are you telling Me this you know lasar he can't help him uncontrollably can't help himself that's he's got opinions
yeah but you know it's it's annoying to hear people go oh it's so slow because each season is paced the same way but what by the way it's not slow you need to watch unfortunately and we have to do this for the recap pods you kind of have to watch them twice to to yeah kind of absorb everything that's in there because it's like this dense All this hidden [ __ ] going on and you can't just like watch it while you're like on your phone because you know like I honestly like I love I
love I love you I love the ringer I love I listen to all the reviews of the things I do true and so when you got you texted me and you're like oh I watched the first episode three times I told Mike White that I'm like okay it's gonna be people are gonna like it Bill watch it three times mean something's going on but I I'm really Excited for people to see where it goes because it is completely unexpected it's a little demonic that's what Mike and I talk about it's the most demonic of all
the seasons in the best way possible and well I mean see we don't have to spoil episode three but snakes fires and tsunamis are are some of the dream visuals going on in the third episode and and that's what's exciting is it the plot hasn't even really kicked in yet so there's so much unexpected stuff to come Yeah and I love the cast like like Patrick Schwarzenegger Jason Parker the three women there everyone just great people it was a really really really amazing experience so you're almost doing like the bellich salary cap move or you're
just getting these getting these awesome veterans to be like the middle linebacker but you don't have to like Sho shoot your wad on Ryan Reynolds but because because ultimately it comes back to what we were saying before like Mike is the star yeah and it it is kind of like it's it's kind of like OKC like they have this culture that they built talking about this with someone other day honestly like with Tommy our our mutual friend it it is like OKC has built an incredible culture around that team and people buying in and that's
kind of what we've tried to build with White Lotus which is this is a show everyone you think LeBron's built that kind of culture why don't you use LeBron As an example no comment um and I think it's like Mike is a star it's Mike's show and people are signing up and they're coming to do this show because they're believing in what we're making yeah and everyone is at mfn everyone's getting paid the same everyone has the same trailer everyone has the same exact status and across the board all of us and we're kind of
everyone is choosing to be there because they want to make a great show not because the money not Because of anything else and you kind of feel that on set it's really it's funny I I've I was body language bill is my favorite thing I've I've and I was I was think by that as it relates to like actors and White Lotus in in the casting process you can kind of feel people's body language really yeah like that they're there because their agent told them to be there because they know it's a good show but
they don't actually watch it why they're there and like how Hard they're fighting for those parts and and and it funny onset I was thinking about body language says so much I remember like as I'm a dire Broncos fan I remember going to see Jake Cutler play live and I just remember he threw like a you know a pick in the end zone and I remember his body language walking off the field I'm like oh he [ __ ] sucks like and I remember when they trade I was so happy and like that the body
language says so much about People and I was thinking about that as it relates to this season and this was a really hard show to make with the elements in Thailand and people were so committed and the body language and the energy every day was so good and I think that comes through in the show and it comes through in people's performances and I think it comes through in by the end of the season I hope people you know agree with me but yeah I do think it's the best season we've done and Mike's no
Help he's writing every single line every single line I mean well Mike I me Mike's Mike's the genius like but it's it was funny because at one point when they during like one of the I forget when the writer strike was and one of the things that were talking about how oh this one they don't have a writer's room it's like yeah because it's like an eight hour movie he doesn't need a [ __ ] writer's room but also like this is a thing and I I you Know Mike I've been working with Mike for
20 years Mike is authentically himself in I think like the key to being successful I think as a producer or a writer is knowing your strengths knowing your weaknesses Mike's weakness is being in a room with writers and Mike's weakness for him that's just not how he approaches the creative process and he's not critical or judgmental of anyone else's process right but the thing he had a mental break the last time he ran A room he had a mental breakdown and ended up in a mental hospital and he talks about it a lot and that
was because of the process for him he just doesn't he he doesn't exist in that process but why wouldn't people just think of it as a seven-hour movie which is what it is yeah and of course and he what Mike is saying is anyone can do whatever they want I just need to do my process and he was like I'm never returning to TV and he returned to TV to Do Enlighten because HBO said to him you don't need to have a writer's room can do it on your terms yeah and that's how I was
able to do it and so I think Mike um yeah I mean and like what he does I don't know how he does it and he's again like I it's he's a genius and the two people I don't know how they do it are him and Taylor Sheridan yeah I don't know I don't understand how Taylor Sheridan is producing this much content I don't know it really does feel like Like I made the Limitless joke before but he really does feel like the Limitless like we're going to find out yeah he found some sort of
something that where he's GNA he has an Aderall addiction and he's going to go to rehab at some point in the next in the next five years I don't know how he does it his body naturally produces that ra exactly by the way there's something going on with him I think but Mike you know Mike is focused on one thing he Wants to do one thing really well he doesn't want to spread himself thin and I think that Al saying no kind we're talking about at the beginning is a superpower of his he knows his
limits and he has to focus on one thing and he pours that's the thing that people don't realize he pours every inch of his life into making White Lotus at the cost of personal friend ships family and he cares about every we'll be in a mix in episode four of the Season you know and He will hear something and he will he's so focused on the attention to details that nobody else is thinking about so is the number one thing that happens to you with the show people suggesting locations for the next season yeah of
course like that or my other favorite thing if my wife came in right now she'd be like why don't you guys do a skiing season by the way go to like Switzerland Mike doesn't like the cold that's why we'll never do so we'll never do I can I Feel confident we'll never do a season in the C you're not going to do a ski season I he just Mike is Mike's not built for he's a California guy he's not built for the cold I but never say never but I would be surprised but yeah I
think part of the best part or one of the best parts of my job now is hotels are calling me because they're like Mike Mike says I got the runoff Mike says no well definitely work with that Italy Hotel be became became like one of the Hottest hotels in the world but like I'm telling you every hotel is now offering to fly us to see the hotel so I get Mike's runoff Mike they'll offer to Mike Mike will go no and they go who's second okay let me go down the down the call sheet so
I'll get the phone calls and they'll be like we'll send a plane we'll fly you to X City you're like a VIP at a casino they're sending you the private plane so you can come gamble there honestly it's like that's the that's and I love to travel so it's like so now it's like how do I say yes to all these things and I think the next couple months I'm going to I'll be flying all over the country looking at all over the world looking at hotels and do you figure out the location first or
do you figure out the idea and that's kind of what I was saying about about Thailand story it it I think there's a first is the theme like we knew season 3 wanted to kind of explore Eastern philosophy And kind of bigger existential religious ideas yeah and so we knew it would have to be Asia and we didn't really land on the series until we landed on Thailand and I'm not exaggerating Mike hallucinated the season and so it came very organically um and so I think season 4 we have I know what the themes are
I won't talk about but so I know we have oh so you know it okay yeah we have a general we have a general concept and then we'll go Scout cities that could Make sense for that General concept and I think the season will present itself once we land in Sea hotels so Mike could be like season four is about adultery that's that's what I'm excited about okay think about locations that would be a good adultery location exactly but it's funny though because Mike part of his genius is a writer he's always paying attention for
example you know uh I we were in Bangkok and I went and had drinks with someone we were scouting and This person was talking to me about these like bald guys who come to Thailand and they're like dating these young women and she's like yeah they're we call them lbhs filing it away yeah so I go in I go in the van the next day and I'm like so funny met with this girl you know I was out and um she was talking about LBH is losers back home and I just kind of say it
as a funny anecdote Mike Mike files that away and then it pops up episode One the LBH is and you know he's always paying attention and he's always kind of just like observing and there's so many things that happen in the show that I'm like um I think maybe somehow I unintentionally or somebody in our group unintentionally inspired it and whether he's making fun of us or you know unclear so that's so if he does season four there's a podcaster we feel like he's making fun of maybe this podcast we're doing right now you never
somehow Some character will end up on a podcast me yeah so that's what I'm saying he'll have a general concept we'll go travel and then ideas will Sprout and it'll kind of focus where we're headed and what he's writing this is the part of the podcast where I pitch a a White Lotus character for some season and it's awkward and you end up not doing it um I just feel like an NBA player going on vacation is the alltime just sitting their idea which then you could really Get involved with I don't know if Mike
cares but these I was thinking about it during an All-Star break all these guys went away and they went like a couple guys you could see like were like almost a little sunburn but I was thinking like this would this is where I would love White Lotus to go one year as have like a basketball star and we could all try to guess what pieces of stars you took to make this star well did you see Luke the video of Luca banging three like he Took the alra break to go off and just start banging
threes right he went to Cabo right yeah yeah yeah just banging oh it's funny because no matter how successful uccessful I am in Hollywood film TV meeting an athlete any athlete is still the thrill of my life yeah so I love this idea as an excuse just to hang out with athlete yeah and then it's like do we get a real athlete do we get a fake athlete because the other one I was thinking was quarterbacks would be a Good one too during the off seas and they go away they bring whoever and you could
have the guy brings his wife but also his girlfriend staying somewhere else in the hotel and you got that whole thing going well I'll tell you a funny story which is season one white Lo we're in Maui Four Seasons maybe you know this maybe you don't which is that is like the Lakers Hotel so l so I am a like if I had to never go in there but I G to say like Magic Johnson is my idol I like Grew up writing letters to him when he retired i b I was like inconsolable like
I had to I think I skipped school he is my hero and if I had to like liken myself really to a bass player as a producer It's Magic Johnson unselfish unselfish so we are at the four seasons and I think somehow we hear that Magic Johnson is staying at the hotel and I tell Natasha Rothwell and I tell Jennifer kulage oh my God I mean Magic Johnson is my my little brother is there And my little brother knows better than anyone John how much I love Magic Johnson so they're like you're gonna meet Magic
Johnson and I'm like I don't know and like I'm walking through the hotel I see him with cookie they're walking through the lobby and I freeze up like I can't do it the next day I'm on set and I get a call from Jennifer kulage and she goes you know magic just left the hotel he tipped everyone the staff love him they just told us he's Leaving they're like you need to come down here come to the lobby you're gonna meet Magic Johnson and I'm wearing like all the co mask and like I have long
hair because we hav't G our haircut I run down the lobby I'm just sitting the lobby now and I'm like this is my one moment to be Magic Johnson and there comes Magic Johnson with Cookie and he's with the manager who I've gotten to know and so I go up to I go up and I introduce myself and I'm now the 11-year-old version of yeah and I'm like to meet you magic I love you so much and uh you know I'm a producer and I basically tell him how much he's changed my life and how
much he means to me and I bum like I'm just like a [ __ ] and he goes he goes wait he's like wait a second like who are you what do you do and I basically tell tell him like I'm producing the show White Lotus and at this point no one knows White Lotus is You know and I basically tell him how much he means to me and he's like do you want to take a photo I take a photo with him and of course it's now framed on my wall and I I think
to this day now I'm like I wonder if you's seen the show oh I I I promise you he's seen the show magic watches all the TV but he must be like because he must have been like who the [ __ ] is this idiot like grown man yeah talking to me like he's a little boy by by the way this happens to Magic Every day like seven times a day so I watched it a bunch of times it was but it was amazing people people melt in the puddles when they talk to them it's
unb pussy's gigantic me you're tall but he's it's it's you just can't believe he's he's 69ine and he's right there but it's also like yeah I'm like then I reflected on what I said to him I'm like wow what an idiot I'm like I produce the way you play basketball you know like but anyway I but but point is we're gonna get an Athlete season four I'm gonna figure that out you've inspired me I don't know what the right sport is but it it I feel like it has to be NBA or football well I
mean I I take so many meanings of that because again like I I want to work I want to do something with athletes and i' you know I've been trying to talk Travis Kelce into something like I'm like that's my that's my dream is to do a show or a movie with an athlete well our friend Tommy Tommy Alter who's people know from this pod because he was involved with it for a long time but he he said from the moment Travis Kelce did SNL he's like this guy's gonna be A-list action movie star I'm
calling it now he planted his flag he's the first one who planted his flag oh yeah no and and because I feel like we need it like Carion I know it crushed for Netflix I didn't really love Taran ederton as the lead we're missing like these guys that like I grew up with in The 80s 90s these a little bit of unintentional comedy but can act like just barely good enough but they're also like physical and awesome I'm doing with John Cena next like John Cena is that but like what's annoying is I'm a season
ticket over to the Broncos I love the Broncos of course I know very well about Travis Kel he's been killing us for 15 years CA call calls me they go come meet with Travis Kelce this is before he was dating Taylor Swift and I'm like Obviously he's like we'll meet with you in Kansas City you have to come out for a game I'm like obviously in between then and when I finally go out he's now the biggest star in the world so it kind of feel like I missed that a little bit but Travis Kelce
is so funny so Charming so personable when he's ready to kind of focus himself with acting he's going to be a big star it would have been funny if he you caught him like during White Lotus season 1 and he was just like Working for Murray Bartlett he was like the 20th guy in White Lotus just came down to Hawaii to hang out see I but that's that's actually one thing I was like I kind of feel like I now it's like so obvious but I feel like I was a little early and then I
missed that boat a little bit but Travis KY but I think he'll when he wants to he'll be a big star he'll be John Cena John Cena is so funny so talented and has that physicality of the stars that were you Know 80s 90s did we hit everything yeah that was like an hour always come back oh yeah people like White Lotus season 3 they're happy with it except for your three buddies those [ __ ] [ __ ] yeah yeah well I mean like our Rotten Tomatoes is is rotten Tom come on you don't
look at Rotten Tomatoes do you I don't if I was it's pathetic how much I consume response to the show like I will I don't know like I will I will sit on Twitter I'll read all the comments don't Do that I can't help but I'm also really I'm actually really interested in people's theories on what happens this season and I'm kind of consumed assumed by people's theories it's really fun it's like well that's why we did the Pod the way we did it this year because I love that the one at a time that's
the only way to do it you really have to like oh I think and then an episode later you're completely wrong I'll be honest with you I I and I mean this Genuinely I really value your opinion oh thank you I do both on Sports but also on film and TV and so I was really nervous to listen to the first episode your ring the your episode about White Lotus so other people listened to it and I asked I was like is it positive or negative I didn't want to like go I just I wanted
to know it was okay because I care about what you think and yeah so I was very excited to know that you like the show I like going on vacation with Shows and people being in the right hands of creators and that like this show is perfect because like I've never been to Thailand and I'm never going especially after hearing some of the things that happened to you when you were there I'm just never going I told my wife she's reconciled at she could take my daughter well you what's cool is you get to see
a lot more of the of the country as the show goes on this season and maybe maybe we'll seduce you by the End maybe there's no Safari that's not on the list right African safari we talk about that we talked about that as a potential yeah because that's the great thing about this show you have all these locations you [ __ ] 10 seasons it's a dream but also it's like where do you want to live like like lifestyle is part of the decision- making because you're you're there for a year and so like you
know we've talked about different continents and and kind of nothing in America though maybe we'll come back we talked about it at some point could do like Yellowstone but yeah you you different depends on time of year but people I what's really fun what's been fun about this season is also Thailand's a place that people don't really know and they're familiar with it from like The Hangover yeah and it's been really amazing seeing the response and broadening the understanding of Thailand and Thai Culture beyond the surface level Beyond full moon party or sex tourism or
whatever it is which is an element of Thai culture but it's not Thai culture and it's been really great to see a country that's you know that needed the exposure and they've really you know they've really responded to that in they've been so um warm to us and Mike told me yesterday he met the Prime Minister he came he was like if I asked him for a passport in a citizenship I Feel like they' give it to me but you know it's been really exciting to kind of put a put a country on the map
that hasn't really had that exposure and that's kind of maybe part of our calculus going forward also it's like what's an Undiscovered Gem and what are places that people aren't that familiar with all right we'll leave on these two things one Luca yeah you must be over the moon I I remember I mean I like Everyone it was like midnight 12:05 I get a text from my little brother and and he texted me something I was like did like the Lakers die in a plane C like what happened I was like he just sent me
basically he's like wow Lakers I was like what does this mean I go on ESPN and I'm like it took a second because I love Anthony Davis and I think he's so underappreciated wow the Anthony Davis zag I like this but but I mean like what the last what was against The the the Nuggets game you're like oh yeah this team is going to be good and also just like he plays like he's like Magic Johnson right he has like he just plays in the same way now he's bad oh yeah yeah which I love
he's already skinnier it took like a week like it feels like he already lost like it's like the ultimate it's like Liam n and taken like they've basically he's basically like I'm gonna I'm go the next 15 years he's basically going to [ __ ] The league up and as a Lakers fan as someone who goes to games I am so excited to see him play I was I had tickets to that that Saturday game where we thought that luuka was going to play and I like I had canceled all these plans I got I
had tickets and I was ready to go and then in the last second they they moved his like his first game to the 10th yeah which was the White Lotus Premiere and for like five seconds I'm like do I skip my own Premiere to go See L play it's like is that something I do but but yeah I'm very excited about LCA it's exciting to be in La for this so your life is basically people talking about the Luca trade with you people suggesting white Lo White Lotus locations and then people trying to set you
up those those are your three things honestly that's that's it that's that's genuinely but like consuming way too much it's a hot show you're probably you're probably getting some good offers For setups I've heard rumors no no comment yeah no but yeah it's it is that's a nice one to drop at a party when you're talking to somebody what do you do um I'm been EP on White Lotus well I tend to that I mean I have I have good friends who somehow seem to work that into every intro my whole identity now is the
White Lotus producer that is my my identity and you know going forward which I I can't complain which I'm I'm very fortunate nice hook for you All right Dave good luck with the rest of the season nice to see you thanks for coming over of course all right that's it for the podcast thanks to sheal and Dave thanks to Kyle and Cudi and gahal as always don't forget you can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify and you can also watch on our YouTube channel the Bill Simmons YouTube channel new rewatchables as well if
you missed it crash that's up there and then uh White Lotus if you're in on that show We've been covering on the prestige TV podcast me Maller and Joanna doing the recap pods and then afterwards during the week Rob Mahoney join Robinson with their deep dive Theory podcast so we have all that going uh and uh I love that show and I'm glad Dave came on anyway I will see you on this podcast on Thursday
