What is Elon Musk's true agenda? | LBC debate

I really don't want this to turn into a bunfight centered around what you think about Elon Musk and whether or not you like him as a person this is more to do with the fact that I think we can all agree that no one person particularly an unelected person should have so much unbridled political power and it does beg the question what should global leaders be doing about it if you've missed the headlines today Elon Musk has caused outrage in Berlin after appearing to endorse the far-right alternative for Deutschland he wrote on his social media

platform X only afd can save Germany and Germany's Health Minister Carl luk accused musk of election interference and called for the authorities to keep a close eye on the goings on in X he said it's very disturbing the way in which the platform which I use very intensively myself is increasingly being used to spread the political positions and goals of Mr Musk and this of course comes after speculation that he will try and donate 100 million to reform he's also expressed enthusiastic support for Italy's Georgia Maloney his personal wealth musk has almost doubled since Trump

won the US election it's now estimated at more than 400 billion that's so much money I can't even think about that amount of money by which I mean my brain will not compute the largess of that amount and that along with the fact that social media is not regulated in the same way as traditional Media or other forms of media are is giving musk so much untrammeled power and he's using it and arguably had an enormous impact on the result of the US election and you know like I said I don't want this to turn

into an argument about whether or not you like Elon Musk he could be David Bowie you know my favorite famous person ever and I would still argue that it would be wrong for one person to have so much untapped power in global democracies but as an aside he's already proving that he's something of a loose cannon with no real idea what he's doing he he almost shut down the entire US Government just days before Christmas this week by threatening Republicans to encourage them to vote against a carefully negotiated budget deal and proposing something so ludic

by alternative to replace it that it had to ultimately be ripped up and they they went back to the original agreement but that shows the type of character that you're dealing with here so what should government leaders be doing about this and do we as individuals and as consumers of social media have any power here if so what does that power look like what should we be doing to save democracy and for those who are uninitiated I saw you Des described in the media recently as the thorn in Elon musk's side can you give us

a bit of a potted history of your interactions with Mr musk um well yes uh we uh are the center of countering digital hate is a watchdog so we we look at the ways in which social media platforms behave we look at the content that they that flows on their platforms and how their algorithms amplify it but also how they enforce the rules of their plat platforms which are the responsibilities that we all accept as users and therefore our right to expect others to abide by them too and we wanted to see how those changed

when he took over the platform what we found was that in the week following his takeover of Twitter which he subsequently renamed X there was a 200% global increase in use of the nword the most defensive word you can use against black people on that platform there was a massive increase in anti-jewish anti-muslim anti- women anti-lgbtq plus um language on that platform and that piece of research went on the front page of the New York Times uh it was read by a lot of people including many advertisers who thought well crumbs we don't really want

our ads appearing next to vile racial abuse and so they pulled their advertising many members of his trust and Safety Council actually read the article believed it to be true and therefore resigned and he sued us sub sub quently saying that it wasn't because we were wrong it wasn't a defamation lawsuit it was a a lawsuit for us for having the temerity to actually do the research now he sued Us in California uh in 2022 uh 2023 and in 2024 early this year we uh received a full Vindication from the courts who actually unusually in

the US normally um that if you lose a lawsuit you don't pay the costs for the other side but we were awarded costs as well because they thought it was so utterly disgusting that he was trying to silence a small nonprofit through bullying through the Law Courts um and that's that unfortunately that has been his continuing Behavior not just with us but with many other people as well he's even gone so far as to sue advertisers for not advertising on his platform which is a little bit unhinged right well and illustrates why the people who

are already getting in touch with the program to say come on it's just his freedom of speech he just has influence people have had influence for decades why this is a a particular case and and I'm not saying that Elon Musk is the first person to donate to a political party in the hope of receiving something in return or to to use their Media power to try and influence elections but this does feel fundamentally different I wonder how you would Express that difference well of course it's different I mean I mean what you've got here

we have all sorts of rules on media concentration that we don't want to have one person that controls too much of our media we also don't want to have foreign citizens able to influence elections you can't take donations from them for example so we already know that if he donates to um to a party in the UK he'd be using some sort of corporate vehicle to do so and that's why we have campaign we have you know rules around the financing of political parties because we know that being able to sort of you know a

foreign billionaire or a foreign potentate or you know um an autocrat trying to influence our elections should be limited by in doing so by having those rules in place and crumbs every single one of those rules is being broken would be broken if uh and certainly the spirit of those rules would be broken if Mr musk was able to influence British elections in that way the very basis of democracy is the notion that it's the will of the people each of our individual votes Cross by cross in boxes across our country in Village halls and

in uh in in town in town halls that that should be listened to not one voice sitting in Silicon Valley or in Texas deciding that he's going to treat our democracy like a play thing that he can manipulate for his own economic benefit and musk once famously said that Twitter should be like a huge Global Market Square everybody's able to come and give their opinion but it hasn't quite ended up that way has it can you give us some insight into how the algorithms are being used to amplify some voices and silence others well very

simply the algorithms on all social media platforms are based on something called engagement so they look at how many people engage with a post how many times it induces a reaction and what we've known historically is that that what gets the most attend what gets the most engagement is content that is controversial that is that actually angers people or upsets them so historically platforms have known that to be true about the algorithms they've tried to do things to limit the verality therefore of that height of of of malignant content whether that be hate speech or

that be disinformation or foreign interference and so unfortunately that doesn't happen on X what we find is that they've done quite the opposite they've encouraged those kinds of people because they cause controversy because they draw attention and what they do is they promote that you don't actually have freedom of speech on that platform because it's not a speech platform it's a publishing platform what you have is the advantage given to people spreading hate the lies that underpin hate and disinformation and that means you've got this Topsy Turvy world where the people that get the most

voice are frankly the people that we should listen least to and what in your opinion are musk's motives is it just about engagement because hate speech and making people angry is the thing that encourages more people to use your platform or does it run deeper than that I I think there is a pattern emerging in who he is engaging with and who he's promoting on his platform and you know you can see that his most recent interference with the alternative for dichan which is the successor to a neo- Nai party in Germany uh and has

some pretty vile views on Race uh and uh his engagement with parties like uh all around the world that have been very very troubling and there is a sense amongst many people that this is a man who you know may not be operating with all of his marbles to be frank and is trying to put his thumb on the scales of Elections all around the world purely for his own benefit and that's precisely what democracy cannot tolerate democracy cannot tolerate one person above others and part of the reason for this is because I'm afraid that

we have treated these social media companies as though they are Untouchable and I am deeply worried hearing labor ministers and labor figures who are in government now telling us that we have to be humble in the faces of great wealth like Mr musk's no as I found when I went to the courts um and Mr musk took us on directly there should be places where Justice is heard where people are held to rules and where where two parties can come together and if in the right the small person can win and I am the small

person compared to Mr musk in our democracy the same should be true too my voice should be the same as your voice should be the same as any one of your listeners and if Mr musk were a citizen of the UK he would be but one vote him trying to use his wealth to usurp the way that the British system works one that I'm very proud of I live in the United States now a country where billions are spent on elections in the UK it's tens of millions and that should make us quietly proud that

we found a way to keep corruption out of our politics and out of our electoral processes by limiting the influence of money and I think we should carry on doing that and I would like to see labor protecting our democracy they're government now they should be doing that instead of as Peter KY said he said we should be humble in the face of these these ultra wealthy people Peter mandon says that we should reach out and give an olive branch to these people you can't give an olive branch to someone who seeking to burn your

democracy to the ground and the final thing that I wanted to ask you is we've seen this great Exodus from the platform X and I I wonder how much difference that makes people using other platforms like for example Blue Sky I read something by Carol Cod waler who who said actually we should not be engaging with social media at all because what's coming down the tracks is a great kind of data harvesting exercise where we're all going to be sort of intimidated into Conformity do you think that boycotting X makes any difference at all well

I think if you don't you know anyone that goes on X is basically there to post da to consume and therefore is making money for Elon Musk if you think that Elon Musk shouldn't have influence in our government if you don't like the way that he's behaving or the things that he says you have a fundamental consumer right to say no thank you Mr musk I'd rather not earn you money by contributing content to you or my eyeballs and attention I'd rather do something better with my time will that make a difference to him though

do you think look I think it makes a difference to his platform absolutely it's already waning in influence because as he becomes as he turns X into more of more of a Cess bit of hate speech the truth is that most people don't want to be there I wouldn't want to sit in a pub where people are shouting the n-word all the time I wouldn't want to sit you know most people wouldn't want to would would if they saw someone screaming on the street you know uh sort of that the aliens are invading and trying

to harvest our livers they sort of walk to the other side of the street I think it's time we walk to the other side of the street while Mr musk has his little breakdown Imran ahed pleasure to speak as always see of the center for countering digital hate there giving us some of his insights hi Natasha this just goes to show what a vile conniving nasty piece of work um Elon musk's well you can say that Eve yeah I mean you know I mean at the end of the day you know this is a man

who who has so much influence I mean like look I don't begrudge him of of having 400 billion what what I do begrudge him of is the fact that he's using his money to you know to to for the algorithm to go his way I mean this is somebody who um told his staff to do something regarding the algorithm so that you know one of his posts actually gets more likes than somebody else's um that that that that that is the level to which we're talking about this is somebody who um you know he you

know throughout throughout his you know his companies um you know he's caused racial disarm um you know and he's been sued for that I think he's actually had to pay money out that as well and you know when you when you are talking about somebody who um is using his wealth to spread racial hatred which which is basically what he's doing and he's doing it in America quite happily you know I mean he's you know he's gone around saying that you know you know he wants more white children to be born because um there isn't

enough white people to you know to take over the ones who are growing old you know this this is a dangerous individual and anybody who's got a Tesla and anybody who's got any of his products anybody with X should should actually boycott his products I don't bite I don't bite into any of any of it I mean I watch a lot of YouTube videos and the influ the influence that he has on American politics is I mean he's been given like a he's been given um a position in government to to cut companies to cut

costs and it is in theory an unpaid position but still he's been called the real president by some people and has already shown the ability that he has even before Trump's presidency has begun to interfere in parliamentary process and that's why a little shiver went down my spine when we were talking to Imran armad earlier when he said well he's going to use it to suit his agenda because I'm thinking what on Earth is his agenda he has 400 billion pounds it can't be to make more money nobody needs more than 400 billion so what

is it that he's that his agenda actually is and and it has to be if you think about it for long enough the kind of nefarious things that you've outlined is it personally scary for you Eve the amount of power that he has well yes it is because I mean at the end of the day you know people in this country are looking at his influence in America and they're liking it and they want it to happen here um you know the fact the fact that you know he's he's got he's got influence and you

know he's got racial hatred influence um spreading across you know the states spreading across you know probably his own country as well South Africa and and and other countries in Europe it just goes to show and people will listen to that people will listen to him because people believe what he says without doing any research whatsoever people actually hang on to his every word and you've got you you've got you got you've got politicians in in America who hang on to his every word as well they look up to him like he's a messiah yes

Eve thank you so much for your call Brilliant way to to start off the discussion there Robert has called from dich what would you like to say hi yeah I I am I follow musk a lot I'm I actually work in a fintech company technology company startup so I'm quite interested in all that um look you said something just let's cut to the chase you just said that he's got all the money in the world and you're right he doesn't need to make more money it just doesn't matter he's got so much right so so

you think that he must be doing it to be nefarious and I I find that amazing because it implies to me that you genuinely haven't followed the guy and listen what he's had to say I mean he's very clear about what his mission is okay what what what do you think his mission is what do you think it is I think it's what he very clearly shows and has explained and what he shows in his daily Endeavors which is he has said a time in time again that that that we need to become an interplanetary

species for us to survive because eventually our planet will not sustain life here we've got 10,000 years maybe less you never know an asroy comes out of nowhere so he wants to be interplanetary and his what he needs right is for the world to come together and work and there be peace and get how do supporting farri parties bring about world peace hang on you know what the thing about you guys is you never listen to anybody so you never understand no I'm I'm asking you to to elaborate on your point that he wants world

peace I wonder how supporting far right parties brings about that I address what you said right he needs the world economy to do well because when the world economy does well he can build his starships and make Mars access he's got 400 million pounds that's more than the GDP of some okay can I just explain in physics why can't he just pay for it himself right you because you don't understand how much money it's going to take in 1980s when we had space when we had the what was it Colombia and those space shuttles right

to get one kilo from the Earth's surface into orbit cost X currently it's 1,000th of x to get one kilo into orbit to get to Mars he needs to divide that cost by a thousand again so the reason he's into free speech is because when you're in a room when you're building the most advanced cars in the world with most advanced rockets and you're a true scientist right and you're working with other scientists and we've done this in our company how was him making all of his employees sign ndi ndas in line with free speech

how was Banning jul Nali from his platform in line with free speech how is amplifying rightwing voices and silencing left wi voices in line with free spee to you I'll explain to you Robert you you're really boring sorry I'm going to move on Pearl has called from wam Forest what would you like to say hi Natasha hello I was thinking yesterday that wouldn't it be wonderful if Elon mosque was just a different alteristic character for example he could be spending his vast wealth for the development of his home country South Africa South Africa could do

with his wealth in terms of developing its economy science technology education he could be spending his money that way rather to feed his own ego he's causing Mischief in the west and he's been allowed to cause this Mischief in the west most particularly in America and I just wondered you know he could be spending he could be spending his money so much better that way I mean that but the thing is Pearl and and this struck me as I was listening to Robert who is a fully paid up musk Fanboy speak in it and the

last call what musk wants I iig from listening to one of his Representatives talk is for to become an icon to for it to be all about him and his ego and his legacy and if we become an interplanetary species purely based on Elon Musk then he will go down in history as the greatest human ever ever and he would rather do that than invest in fixing the planet as it stands well I think the only um thing that could um change things is If he if he got deported back to South Africa push out

of America then maybe he'd be forced to just go over there and do something more productive with his money it's it's so fascinating to me the way that I if you look at it like a ven diagram all the people who were baying about unelected bureaucrats in the European Union and were Furious when Obama said you know if if you do do brexit then the the UK is not going to be the top of our agenda for a trade deal moving forward how dare this Foreigner have an opinion on our UK politics and the people

who love Elon Musk that then diagram is a perfect circle and it shouldn't be should it you know yesterday I saw some American politicians on the on the news you know they were quite Bal D about what he' done when he almost shut down no not shut down he um proposed a policy that would have put Financial stress on some Public Service um workers in America and they were quite bewilder that he'd been able to do this or almost been able to do that and uh I don't know I just think it's his ego really

yeah it is thank you so much Pearl it is his ego and all of the tech Bros crypto Bros whatever you want to call them who are currently corresponding with the the studio who and so obviously this is about men and their egos ultimately when it comes down to it and I just wish that the future of the of the human race of human politics didn't rest on something so fragile and volatile