The Terrifying Truth of Epstein’s "Inner Circle"

Why were all these powerful men sexually abusing children? Do you feel like you understand that? It's it's a really tough question.

It's one that I get asked a lot. Um, and on the one hand, you know, especially as someone who went through this myself as a child, it's it's very hard to kind of imagine why why an adult would do that. you know, what would possess an adult to to hurt a child in that way?

You know, I I find that um really really hard to comprehend >> demonic. >> Uh yeah. And um when you look at it at this scale, uh it becomes even harder to comprehend.

And I think part of the why um goes back to uh this idea of of power, which is that, you know, for for whatever reason um at least some of these people were actually interested in in sexually abusing children. Um obviously as you said the the people who have been named um apart from Gileain and and Jeffrey deny the allegations. Um Gain and Jeffrey also deny them but Galain has been convicted.

Um and Jeffrey is is now dead. Um but you know allegedly uh a number of people were interested in in in sexually abusing children and and that I can't explain. But there were also many many more people who were around um who knew what was going on or at least I find it very hard to believe didn't know what was going on.

Certainly from the stories that survivors have told me about the people they saw around and what what was happening in that situation I don't think any right-thinking person could not question uh whether something criminal was happening. Um so there are a lot of people who were around um and for and whether or not uh they committed any abuse. Um for them I think part of the why is again being being in that kind of inner circle of of power.

And Jeffrey Epstein, by all accounts, um, from obviously knowing people who were trapped with him for a very long time, was was very very good at manipulating people and using his power to attract other powerful people and and promised them a lot of things and um, you know, make their lives better and and help them live these lives of untouchable luxury. um and they wanted in on that. And I think again that it's it's it's awful and it speaks to, you know, so many things about where we're at in the world um in terms of late stage capitalism and, you know, so many structures that that that these people really do, you know, they really were willing to let this happen um just because, you know, Jeffrey Epstein was offering something to them that they wanted.

uh which was, you know, to be in a room with Bill Clinton, to be in a room with Donald Trump, um to be in a room with Elon Musk. These are all, you know, people that we've seen uh pictures of um with Epstein and with Bill Clinton. I I reported um a survivor saying that that she actually met Bill Clinton with Jeffrey Epstein over a number of days.

Um and so you know those are those are facts and those people um for them you know they want power more more than um they care about protecting children or or protecting anyone else and and it's a it's a depraved and terrifying lack of humanity and there were so many people who showed that that's who they were >> and how much credence do you give to the allegations that Epstein was working on behalf of a foreign government. You know, we remember in 2019, the reporter Vicky Ward revealed that a former White House official said that Alex Aosta was told Jeffrey Epstein belonged to intelligence and to leave the matter alone. We've since heard a uh former Mossad operative uh speaking on other podcasts basically saying yes, you know, he was Mossad.

you know, do you think that this was first and foremost a pedophile ring or was there something more even more to this horror? >> I think it's important not to downplay the fact that I think it was first and foremost a pedophile ring, but uh as you said, I think uh it is safe to uh have questions about whether it was more than that. As you said, there is there is evidence um that Aosta put together that sweetheart plea deal that I mentioned because he was told that Jeffrey Epstein was an asset um and that he should be protected.

Um so there there is there is plenty of evidence to suggest uh that he was uh working for intelligence. Um, and so that should should just mean that that journalists that we should be asking even more questions about this. And and yet still I I there's not there's not enough kind of hard facts out there about um what Jeffrey Epstein's role was um in terms of being an intelligence asset.

And I really hope that that comes to light because again that's that's another aspect of the kind of uh structures of power in our society uh that have have clearly played a role in in this. Well, I would say that for me as somebody coming at it from the outside, there were so many questions raised. You know, the FBI had been aware of Epstein since the mid 1990s.

As you mentioned earlier in our conversation, uh pretty much all the survivors talk about the fact that there were these lenses peeking into his Palm Beach residence that everyone was aware of. Um and then of course, you know, although Aosta has since retracted uh this uh admission that he'd said that uh uh you know, Epstein was part of intelligence um that that was something that was reported back in 2019. And then I was referring earlier to Ari Benj who's a former Israeli intelligence officer who'd become known for his claims regarding uh Epstein.

And he'd said that Epstein wasn't just a wealthy predator. He was that uh but he was also what he called an intelligent asset involved in honey trap operations using women to gather compromising information on powerful figures for surveillance and leverage. I suppose for me as a woman, for me as a mother, for me as someone who was a little girl at a certain point, I look at this story and I think to myself, I still don't understand why the attraction was abusing children.

>> Are we saying that all these people in power, those named and those not named yet, >> are just sick? like all of them are pedophiles. It's such a hard question, you know, why is it this kind of child sexual abuse that that is at the heart of this?

Um, and I think, you know, it's it's likely a couple of things. Um, it's probably that uh Jeffrey Epstein himself, uh, you know, was a pedophile and he's the one who kind of set all of this up from from what we know. Um, and for the others who allegedly abused minors as well, um, whether or not uh, they are pedophiles, I suspect there's something which again links back to power, which is about being able to do something that the world almost unanimously agrees is one of the most egregious things you can do.

And these people were being offered to be able to do that with complete impunity. And that is powerful you know that would make them feel powerful. So, you know, whether or not they are all p pedophiles, I think there is something here which perhaps Jeffrey Epstein knew, uh, which was that, you know, to to offer them the chance to do something that almost everyone would agree is is completely reprehensible and get away with it means that you're a very powerful individual.

and and Jeffrey Epstein from accounts again from survivors I know who were trapped with him was very good at making people feel like that. Um and the sad thing is if if you know he was promising them impunity if if that was the thing that draw drew them to it. He was right you know for for for almost 30 years you know and still now he was right because most of these people still haven't been charged.

most of these people who allegedly abused minors uh still have not been charged. So, that's the really terrifying thing is that I suspect I mean, who who knows? I don't think we'll ever be able to know which of them um are pedophiles and which aren't, but I suspect uh what the draw card was um you know, just just how powerful you would have to be uh to be in a situation to get away with a crime like that.

Um and to have someone say, you know, you you won't you won't be punished. You'll get away with this. And and he was right.

And that's really really terrifying. And I really hope that that we fix that um very soon and that these people are held accountable for it because I for one don't want to live in a world where you can commit a crime that again we almost unanimously agree is one of the most serious crimes you can commit um and and get away with it. >> Let me ask you about some teen victims whom you've come to know personally.

I have been reading uh Virginia Def Fray's book. Um it's um both very very difficult to read but also her voice comes out in the book in a way that she sounds hopeful about life again which I think makes her death particularly >> puzzling. >> Mhm.

>> Because if you've read the book then you know that she actually rebuilds her life. you know, has a family, has three children she adors, a husband she adors. She had a life, >> she'd rebuilt a life for herself and was on the cusp of um I think going after some new people, I believe, >> before she died.

What do you think is most misunderstood about these victims that you've come to know? >> Oh, just almost everything. I mean, one of the things that I talk about a lot is uh the way that we as a society are still unbelievably attached to what we call rape myths, which are a set of beliefs around sexual abuse that are completely false.

um but uh but held and and strongly believed um by the majority of people in this country at least. Um and so because for for whatever reason um we are still so so attached to these myths and those completely false beliefs drive how the world sees these victims. And the result of that is that these victims have been ret-raumatized again and again and again and again by people who who whether they admit it to themselves or not um hold these false beliefs about sexual abuse and sexual assault.

Um, and so, you know, I think w with some of these victims who I who I now know very very well, um, it's so hard to read, uh, what what some people would like to suggest about them. Um, you know, the the rape myths uh that we're talking about include things like uh they made up an allegation for attention, they made up an allegation for money, uh they did something they regret, and so they made up an allegation, you know, uh when you know these people, it's just it's so hard to see how anybody uh would would make those assumptions. And so I really I really wish that that more people understood that.

And that's why I really wanted the book to focus on the victims themselves um rather than Gileain or or Jeffrey um because every headline I saw when I got back to my hotel room after every day of the trial um h had a form of one of these rape myths in it somewhere or was informed by it. So you know the the best example I think uh is Annie Farmer who testified for a very long time uh about being abused. um and about these terrible terrible things that happened to her and she she talked about it for hours and and it was so brave and you know listening to it was it was so powerful and it was incredibly important to the jury.

But then the defense came out and and said uh so she said that Gileain had bought her a pair of cowboy boots. >> I remember this >> on one of their trips. Um, and this is important because um, again, this is something I really care about.

This this idea of grooming. Um, the idea of Gileain making this purchase was really important to to prosecutors because it's an example of uh, one of the stages of grooming, which is gift giving, or providing a child with something that that they don't have. So, identifying children who are vulnerable, whose needs are not being met, um, and then trying to meet those needs.

So buying someone uh a very expensive pair of boots uh is is a really important way to show the jury Gileain's culpability in this and the shop on on the shopping trip according to the evidence which the jury accepted um it it was just Gileain who who bought them. Um so Annie Farmer gave these boots to the FBI. She's, you know, she she kept them for a long time.

And the defense came out and and said, "Oh, but these boots are scuffed. You know, it looks like you've worn them. " And she said, "Yeah, yeah, I've worn them.

" Um, which firstly should be quite obvious because they were bought because she was going on a horse riding trip and she didn't have any boots. That's the reason that, you know, so she would have worn them then. Um, but, you know, she also said, "Yes, I've worn them since then.

I wanted to try and reclaim them. Um, and you know, anyone who has been in a situation where um there's been grooming involved and gift giving involved, which which I have, um, can understand why you would want to reclaim items like that. It made perfect sense to me listening to it.

Um but the defense just said there is you know basically said through questioning there is no way that you are telling the truth about this abuse because you wore these boots later and no right-thinking person no person would wear a pair of boots given to them by an abuser. If you know anything about child sexual abuse, if you know anything about grooming, you know uh that most children will use the gifts that they're given even long after they've understood what happened to them. Um there's a lot of research into that.

Um but but that didn't matter because that day the only thing that was in the mainstream media was the fact that Annie Farmer had been found to have worn these boots as if it was a smoking gun, you know. Um and I counted I think 72 mentions of the word boots in in the daily in the articles that night. Um, and this woman had just testified about an incredibly traumatic time in her life, um, for hours, and none of that testimony was in the papers.

The papers just talked about the boots and the fact that she wore them as if this was this was proof that she lied. And, you know, the coverage was was shocking, but but I wasn't shocked by the time I read it because I walked out of the courtroom. So there were only four of us in the actual courtroom, but there was there were overflow rooms.

So there were other reporters who were watching it on a screen inside the building. So I interacted with a lot of of those people. And as I said, for me listening to that, that makes perfect sense to me.

Um that that she would wear the boots. Another victim um again was cross-examined about the fact that she stayed in touch with Jeffrey Epstein after she escaped from him. Um again, that makes perfect sense to me.

Uh, we know that that happens. I know that that happens. There's a lot of there's a lot of reasons for that.

Um, because the whole point of of grooming and child sexual abuse is that it's incredibly confusing for a child uh to be betrayed by someone who promised that they would protect you. Um, so you know, you you do want to stay in touch with them. And again, so we we'd hear that evidence.

it would make perfect sense to me. And I'd come out and I just hear these male reporters in the gaggle kind of saying she she made it up. She, you know, she she's lying.

And they said, I just can't imagine wearing the boots. If it were me, I would never wear the boots. I would never write the email to Jeffrey.

And these things that are backed up by scientific studies about grooming that we know are actually evidence that it did happen rather than that it didn't happen. Um and yet the this myth is, you know, any any myth that that results in believing that victims routinely lie about sexual abuse is very attractive to us as as a society as I said because we all not not us obviously um but the majority of people believe them. So anything that leads you to that conclusion um is people will readily accept.

So they just accepted that um wearing the boots meant that that Annie Farmer was lying. Um and and that is still shocking to me because Annie Farmer went to the FBI in 1995 and we're sitting in this courtroom in 2021. Um and you know there is so much evidence.

Um even the the Epstein compensation fund has accepted her evidence. Um and yet still somehow uh these reporters believe this myth that um if you wear something given to you by a groomer or an abuser uh it means that that that person couldn't possibly have have done anything wrong. So that's kind of the main thing that I really wish people understood about these victims is that is the things that you read in the paper or wherever the things that people are trying to tell you are proof that they are lying or not credible.

Those things are completely unscientific. They are not true. They are recognized as as myths about rape.

Um, and so, you know, I just wish more people knew that so that when they did read things about these people trying to, you know, discredit them that they could say, "Okay, this person is using a myth to discredit someone who is in fact very very credible.