How To Be A Friend with chef Christina Tosi | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

the best part of doing a podcast with you is that I get to talk to you I miss you and and I get to see you I get to see like on work time like it's not like I'm trying to call you in the middle of work and I know I'm Not Gon to catch you because you're in the middle of your work I just have a moment yeah we we're getting we're we're this is yeah this is considered work hey Simon it's it's a real job to be your what does that mean joking I'm

just joking not like the that's like the it's it's what we're saying implicitly but also it's such a joy well how it's because we both get we both love what we do for a living and it all makes the most sense when you get to say my favorite people just spend time like outside of working CH life are also people that that's how for me that's how I know I'm on the right track professionally so um I did no preparation for this interview whatsoever because whatever um you are are famous because of Milk Bar and

I have a couple questions about that that I personally would like to know that weirdly in all these years I've never asked you but you're famous for milkbar you're famous for your Netflix TV show you're famous for your books your cookbooks and your new book what's it called the new book's called dessert will save the world Amen to that um like have you ever seen anybody angry eating ice cream it just doesn't exist it does not exist they're a little less angry they might still be angry but the ice cream didn't make them I'm so

mad with this chocolate cake um uh and what I thought you know you talk about those things a lot but there's a Christina tosy behind all of that magical stuff that I have the Deep honor and pleasure of knowing and I feel selfish knowing that and I thought that would be a place for us to go today some of the questions I have we've never talked about before okay anyway I'm just gonna jump right in so here's The Milk Bar question I have I never asked how did you come up with cereal milk ice cream

which is honestly one of the greatest gifts to humanity I would put the discovery I would put the discovery of penicillin and and cereal milk ice cream way up there that's very sweet for me it's like the you know when you do something that's like bigger bigger than yourself in a way that's like I don't know it just kind of happens and my only job is to be the conduit for it um in life I imagine you must feel like that all the time these are now I'm going like oh wow there are these questions

that I have never actually asked you either um for me serial milk is the representation of making someone that angry person eating ice cream on a bad day just making them feel like seen and loved and Trust somewhere at some point in their life where they felt like calm and safe and trusted and seeing without any of the other this is my name or this is who I am or this is what I do there's like a sacred moment that happens I suppose in a bowl of cereal at some point in all of our Lives

no matter what the cereal is there there's the the magic of that product it's not just tasty ice cream because I there are many flavors of tasty ice cream that I love but there is no flavors of tasty ice cream that so tap into Nostalgia and childhood I mean if you make dessert of course dessert like make dessert contain the world it makes people happy it does the thing like desserts Sacred Space like aside from a tasting menu only restaurant where someone's going to serve it to you like desserts an opting course right like it's

also not it's something people choose to do not something that people have to do and I take that Choice personally like I take it seriously I take it personally that is a sacred sacred space that people inviting you into like we say the book like dessert has this habit of showing up right like of course cake shows up at birthdays but like if there's a wake or a funeral or sh like dessert is there dessert has this way of showing up for people in these moments and that's that's sacred stuff that's a really I love

the fact that that you think about that dessert is a discretionary course so you're not actually competing against other desserts you're competing against let's get out of here and go watch a movie at home you're competing against oh I've put on so much weight you're competing against like all of those things you're neosis like their dark sides meet their emotional child meet their you know meet their intellect like you were in the middle of an argument largely in someone's head or some brilliant resolution where someone was just like in the head be quiet we're going

we're going to Milk Bar we're doing the thing we whatever I don't know how to do this without it being weird but my real vision for fine dining is that dessert follows you home and is like there for you and bent that are like they give you pajamas to change into so that when you just like dessert that sleep by the way by the way I do this I do this frequently I go for a nice meal I'll have my meal and I will very often say I'd like this dessert to go please and so

you don't have to find a way to deliver it at home you just have to find an elegant way to put it in a cooler pack so it stays fresh and is beautifully presented when you get home that's all I do that regularly it's like because I want to eat this in home I want eat it but I want to eat it in about an hour cover I want eat it about an hour yeah and I want to eat it in front of the TV I don't want to eat it at a restaurant yeah so

I'm going to change subjects on you we're gonna this is this is a dramatic shift now this is a dramatic shift of key we're going to go from a major key to a minor key well um I regularly on this podcast will talk about vulnerability and I will talk about um during covid that I made a rule with all my friends that there's no crying alone yeah I talk about this idea of no crying alone what I don't ever say is that during Co you and I called each other more than a couple times and

cried together and I remember the first time you called and you were walking you were walking you were going for a long walk you'd left the house don't remember how it started and I remember the Preamble you said I don't remember remember what you said about how you were doing but clearly you were in a difficult place it was a difficult time and you said I could go to my husband but he's also in a difficult place and I don't want to add more to his plate and so do you have a minute and I

remember I don't remember the conversation at all but I remember we cried together and it was I always adored you and I've always been a fan of yours but it was on that day like this this friendship like became real it it was it was set in concrete you know it went from fun to solid and I do you remember that day you know it's funny you ask because you're saying this in my head I'm like Simon I remember the tree I was standing under I remember the gate like the sort of like the way

when when you walk and you kind of almost walk like um Soldier um where you sort of like kick your heels up a little bit because I'm I was just sort of like grasping for straws I remember the phone ringing and I remember hearing your voice like I remember where I walked yeah I remember I remember those steps what is it about why don't people call a friend in need you know I mean here we are I trust you with everything I would call you and tell you I'm struggling I would call you and tell

you I'm hurting I would call you and tell you I'm flailing I would call and tell you I'm confused I'm lost I would call and tell you all of those things and I want to know why other people don't I have friends who don't call other people in times of need and I and they they have this weird sense of I don't want to burden anyone with my problems or there's shame or embarrassment attached especially if somebody considers themselves a high performer I was GNA say there's probably part of it that also is if I

say it out loud and I have to hear myself one that makes it true yeah and two making it true means I have to admit it and then grapple with it and deal with it and if you're talking about high performance you're talking about people that implicitly don't want to admit defeat and confusing vulnerability with de feat right is probably like number one reason why why people that are high performers struggle and then also if you're a high performer the second you say it out loud and you acknowledge that it's a thing then you have

to go out and solve it and if you don't think you have a solve for it it's it's it's it's too it's too big to even conceive of stating out loud though of course the irony is saying it out loud releasing yourself of it to someone that is is trustworthy is often times half if not so much more of the grappling with it and dealing with it and taking one like taking that first step is is often times so much of getting getting through it getting into it making way it's decompartmentalization they can do it

for a short perod of time while they're in the moment of chaos because they they don't there is no to deal with whatever they need with the emotions in chaos but they will have to deal with it otherwise that's when all the mental health challenges show up and what you're talk what I think is so interesting is you're talking about by by saying it out loud because thinking it you can it's still ethereal it's a thought right yeah but by saying it out loud to another human being you're decomart mizing and saying this is a

real thing and you you can't escape it now right you can't on notice you put yourself on notice and that's a very scary feeling if you don't have the solution ready and lined up for the problem that you're you're putting out there but that's the whole point of DEC compartmentalizing have you also yeah s go ahead no no please please I was gonna say but like the for my my experience with you is the most beautiful part of our friendship like why did I call that day why were you the person that I called it's

not like I try and six other people like I went on a walk I knew I was going to call you I hit I I hit Simon in my phone and it went and for me the biggest piece of that the reason I knew that you were my person to call was because of the conversations we were having beforehand which is you know not only gave me the space for vulnerability but you gave me language around the fact that like people that that that believe part of their work and that is that is part of

my belief I believe that's so much of my work and what brings me joy and why I work as hard as I do is because I want to show up and help people and you when we're having like our high times and our high moments you always have this beautiful way of saying like man what like when we're High we're high but let's not forget to your point that we can't feel high always right like we're going to feel grounded and part of feeling grounded is means that we're going to dip below feeling feeling you

know level set and that happens and it's frequent and when it does let's not run away from it and it it almost made me feel stronger to call you to say oh [ __ ] I'm having a moment that's like this moment that we're talking about it was an invitation in to say you feeling this way actually is validating that your work matters and that you're on the right course and that you're human and that you're all of these things there's an Insight here that is really important right which is most of us and we're

all guilty of this present company included right most of us offer to support our friends when we see that they are hurting or in pain which is like calling to buy insurance while the house is on fire right and the Insight is is that we ignore the possibility of hard or bad times with ourselves or the people we love we ignore them in the good times because why would we it's like when the stock market is rallying nobody thinks about it crashing right and the one thing we did probably by accident but the one thing

that we did is in the High Times and the celebrations and the high fives and the woohoo and will like this is life forever and it's never going to change we were preent enough to say hey isn't this amazing but remember when this feeling goes away we have to be there for each other in other words we bought the insurance the insurance early you knew you had a policy when when when your when your feelings crashed I had my signment in at CR policy already executed babe it was filed away I knew I knew I

had it like I know it's in here somewhere right exactly and I think what you're talking about is the responsibility of good friends and I would even go so far as the responsibility of good friends the responsibility of good leaders and the responsibility of good co-workers which is in the very high times to start to start writing policies to start writing insurance policies saying look I hope you never have to use this I hope your house never burns down but on the horrible occasion that it may just remember you've got this policy cash it in

and I think it I think this is huge that in High Times we we're not Debbie downers by reminding people hey this isn't going to last we're writing insurance policies okay such a good Insight it's a it's a plotting the high times and being like but to be clear no matter what the time is I'm always your friend like there's no fair weather here of course of course of course things are great right now and to be human is go to be that there's going to be a time in life and and I want to

show you what our friendship really means yeah so the question the question I have is were you always good at asking for help or is it a skill you had to learn I'm I'm I'm in fact terrible at asking for help in a very interesting way you are calling out a dynamic of our friendship that is I would say very bespoke to our friendship I'm terrible at asking for help I am not great I'm great at being vulnerable in certain moments with certain people and the rest of the time I flow through it so I'm

not a one-sized fit allll in in this Spirit of asking for help and vulnerability what is what is the reason you don't want to ask for help I think probably the tricky part of like where depending on where you're at in life the things that made you successful oftentimes are the things that hold you back what you make to certain tiers of you know air quote Success um and I think that's part of it right to be an entrepreneur you have to be to be a successful entrepreneur you have to be determined you have to

go at it like always stay in the game never quit figure it out that's not you can't ask for help along the way but you you have to be really determined to you know solving problems and be okay that sometimes help doesn't come and you still have to succeed and then all of a sudden being grown up and being like Oh if I want the richness of life and Surround Sound I have to invite other people in I can't just to your point we can't just show I can't just show up for people I have

to invite other people in otherwise I stop losing the connection of like why cereal milk does the thing or you you stop losing the richness of friendship so how can you give seven friends six friends a birthday party at your own birthday party if they aren't true friendships and that's that's a dynamic that I'm that is definitely on my personal Improvement goals list I I I'd like to call [ __ ] if I may um because nobody I know entrepreneurs who don't ask for help and they can only reach a certain level because they have

to be in every meeting they have to make every decision and you you can't achieve what you've achieved in the scale that you've achieved it without being forced even if you did it Kicking and Screaming but you had to delegate and you had to let go and you had to ask people to do things and own things and run things and take accountability for things because you physically could not nobody can achieve scale without without maybe not asking for help but getting it perhaps it's for me I'm being very literal about the I need help

will you help me delivery versus versus getting help and part of the getting help for me is that you you have to be Fearless as you're building and then you have to be Fearless from a fail standpoint I suppose both in building and when to your point when you're scaling and you invite other people in to the party truly into the Inner Circle you have to really trust and be Fearless about the fact that people are going to fail you're going to fail people are going to let you down you might let people down whether

you're trying to or not and just having like an emotional zigger about you that says no matter what happens I'm going to be okay are your team is your team good at asking for help sometimes probably not not it there I oh Lord this is really a deep down probably not they're probably I would say that they're very similar to me and that I don't know I've ever had someone say I need help yeah but rather an invitation in that sort of implies I'd love your brain share I'd love your feedback I need your support

but not the there's a little bit of this like the the fear of like being like I need help and what it implies because that's actually you're so great at that you're so great at the the balance of I'm curious and I'd love for you to unlock more than what I do or don't know without overtly being like so like the help me feels like I'm drowning the help me for me feels like I don't know how swim I'm drowning I'm in over my head as opposed to the Curiosity of inviting other people to the

table and saying it's telling order like what don't I know tell me more you know one of the things that I've learned is that there's two ways of asking for help right most people think asking for help is and you said this before is the admission of defeat yes and so their temperament is defeated right um I don't know what I'm doing and uh can you help me I I need help I need help I'm drowning I need help right and and I've always thought of it as a mindset which is to ask for help

with confidence right like hey can somebody please like help me out here I am completely underwater and I definitely need some help otherwise I don't know I'm going to drown or something like somebody please just help me right and to have a sense of humor or a confidence in the asking for help is a mindset so you're asking for the same thing with the same same circumstances in both ways in one of the cases you're ashamed of it because as you as as as you said that you equate it to defeat where I've learned to

disassociate asking for help with defeat and simply associate asking for help with I just need help I just need some help but that's a powerful thing and I think that you know how to call it out I think I think but what I think this conversation is doing is I want PE anyone who's listening to this to to recognize that asking for help is normal yeah and not only is it normal it's really nice I mean and I'll go back to this which is I've you've you and I have always got along we've always had

fun we've always been friends we've been friends for many many years but that one day under that one tree I remember where I was standing you remember the tree I was standing next to my kitchen counter when the phone rang like I remember exactly where I was and we remember specifics of where we were like when the moon landed when for the we remember where we were when we watched you know Neil Armstrong walk on the moon because these things have such impact in our lives and so how powerful is it that something as innocuous

as a friend calling and saying do you have a minute that you and I have internalized it like people internalized watching Neil arm storm walk on the moon and on that day we became very close friends and we don't talk a lot let's let's let's like let's be Crystal Clear like I don't see you a lot I don't talk to you a lot but you and I have the undying confidence that on any moment of any day if the phone rang and one of us said got a minute so I'll just tell you a quick

funny story you'll appreciate this right so a friend of mine went through a really tough time and I didn't know about it and she's a very close friend went through a really really hard time and I I saw her and I was like hey what have you been up to and she's like I've been really depressed I've been really having I'm like WTF like what I'm one of those friends you call like I call you like you've told me things before like why did you leave me out like like why didn't you call me and

she said I did I'm like no you didn't she's like yes I texted you multiple times I'm like what and I go back and look at my text of like have I been a horrible friend and the texts say what up what are you doing want to come over and I was like you mean these she goes yeah I'm like you mean you mean the ones that sound like every other text you send me like how the hell am I supposed to know that you're struggling when you send me what are you doing you know

and she came upon some research that said that when someone is struggling or in need all they need is eight minutes from a friend to hold space with them to make them feel better that's all they need is eight minutes and so now we have a code word which is what up how you doing but when one of us is struggling the text is do you have 8 minutes minutes and that simply means I need you I'm going to cry no it's perfect minutes eight minutes when somebody texts you eight do you have eight minutes

any of us can stop the movie can walk out of a meeting can walk out of a room and talk to a friend in need for eight minutes we spend eight minutes in in the bathroom for heaven's sakes and we can be there for somebody for 8 minutes we won't we won't it's not we're not there it's we don't need to fix anything we need to acknowledge that they need help and that they just need to know that they're not alone and by the way to be Crystal Clear there is no greater honor that you

could give a friend than to send them a text message that says do you have eight minutes like when you're in your own like Darkness yeah I get that you can't see clearly but there is no greater compliment and gift to let someone know how much they mean to you to send that text there is for me as as a friend there is there is no greater like no great honor I am that is the level friend that I aspire to be and I don't have a zillion friends because I'm like the friends I have

I'm I'm the I'm the eight minute I'm the eight minute text in the middle of the night friends like that is the friends yeah stop dropping roll friends and to your point the like I don't even I don't even remember what we talked about I just remember that making that call and that walk it wasn't a twoh hour walk no to your point it's the it so much can happen in it was probably 20 or 30 minutes if I had to guess yeah maybe an hour at the absolute most eight minutes eight minutes and and

you and you really you really said it best which is for anybody who says I don't want to bother anyone with my problems like how dare you deny them the awesome honor of getting to hold space with you and sit in mud with you and give eight minutes of their life just to let you know you're not alone that's the that the not to fix things just to let you know that you're not alone in whatever you're doing and sometimes it's not deep emotional stuff sometimes like I don't know how to solve this problem and

it's silly stuff but the thought that we don't want to bother our friends is is is unbelievably selfish right bother me I want to be bothered by the people I love that is what reinforces my love for them yeah and anybody who doesn't have eight minutes in the course of a day they may not have in a second you know you might be on a plane I get that you know but when you get off the plane you got to walk to the taxi that's about eight minutes be the eight minute friend and if and

if someone in your life is not an eight minute friend I think so then they're just then they're just fun they're just acquaintances totally they're just move them to a different place and you're like yeah they're they don't have to be ejected from your life but you just wouldn't call them in a time of need and that's okay I have friends that I wouldn't call in time of need but I love them and I think they're great fun but they're not they're not they're not they're just not on that speed dial that's true can you

tell me something you've done in your career and it doesn't matter if it's commercially successful or not I don't care but can you tell me a specific specific thing that you've worked on in your career that you absolutely loved being a part of and that if every project or everything you ever worked on was like this one thing you'd be the happiest person alive yes I can tell you because it's like fresh in my in my in my brain and my life fate Club it's this crazy quirky little thing that I started during the pandemic

it used to be daily now it's weekly Plus that anyone can join it happens on Instagram live at 2 p.m. Eastern Standard Time every Friday and I literally just wherever I am we bake something together and I won't tell you what we're baking I'll just tell you what the basic ingredients are that you need and it's usually no more than I don't know three five maybe seven um and you just show up with a cannonball Spirit of whatever it is I got my ingredients Ready set go and we spend 5 minutes 15 minutes 30 minutes

baking we make a I make a playlist every week you you listen you dance you watch you bake you make mistakes you mess up you burn stuff I drop stuff whatever it is but it's like it's a carved out time together to be intentional and free in a very Lose Yourself find yourself spirit and it's a club in a way that it's this collection of people that Simon are like they're all over the us at this point and they show up for each other someone text someone someone at at B Club messaged me the other

day and was like Hey this person's mom died and she had been battling for a while and she is having a really hard time and she I want to show up for her her favorite thing is this one thing that you made this one time can you send the care can you send the care package to her etc etc but it has become this network of incredible humans some of whom to be clear don't even bake they just show up for the Vibes and the spirit of community some of them have never even met each

other they're just pen pals and it is it's the power of dessert but it's really like it's a wide open door for anyone and everyone to like to to be the closest thing to to that eight minute friend um and it's completely human it's not choreographed it's not reversed it is me on whatever my whatever I am at 2m on a Friday it's a good day it's a bad day it's a rainy day and I'm showing up and I'm I am an introvert I don't I do not get energy from being out and about and

andan and it forces me every Friday to really ask myself on a good day and a bad day like what are you what are you here for what are you showing up for um and it's an invitation it's a it's a door open in to anyone that wants to come into my home and just needs some company or needs to laugh at me or needs to laugh with me or wants to bake or needs an excuse or needs like a babysit or some people put their kids in front a fake club and it is the

most I love it because to your point there's no transaction of Commerce and it has uh it's a club which is something that I very much found my identity in when I was a teenager of oh there's clicks and this and that and the other and I have all my friends but like you get to sort of choose what you're interested in or to find your people in it and I love that if this community of people that I have everything to do with and nothing to do with and there's just like an immense pride

of its stickiness and the space that it holds in people's lives he rest tell me an early specific happy childhood memory something I can relive with you H um God this is such a good question my like my favorite earliest food memory is um my mom uh comes to pick me and my mom working mom comes to pick me and my sister up from it must have been like preschool and kindergarten first grade um I was a I still am a very messy kid and so she'd always dress Us in dresses but they would like

send us out for recess and I would just sit in the in the dirt and then and she was just like I can't believe that you you know ruined another yeah another outfit and an like seat belts buckles us into the back of the car blue for Taurus I always sit behind the driver's seat that that was always my seat um it was one of those um one of those sedans where you change change the gears with a little stick shift up here um and I remember her like Mom purse that had the multiple pockets

and it was always like old tissues hanging out and and and and and she put it in the middle because the the front seat was also like a banket bench yeah the little armrest down she where she would normally sit her purse was empty and her purse was on the dashboard instead which was very strange and she pulls halfway out of this Like Preschool kindergarten parking lot and pulls over and when they pulled over my mom and my dad it was because we were fighting my older sister and I were fighting kicking each other once

I opened the door because I was curious Happ pull this car over kind of thing right and my heart goes in shock like oh [ __ ] oh [ __ ] oh [ __ ] what do we do what do we do and she digs into her purse and like oh what could this be and she pulls out a bag of sugar babies that she left in her purse on the dashboard to be warmed by the Sun and out of nowhere this makes no sense whatsoever tears open the bag of sugar babies and you know

they're little brown sugar pieces they're Prim just sweet for your tast s but they're very magical and she like doses out two to my sister and I remember the clink of these two little pieces of like sugarcoated candy clinking into my sister's hand and then into mine and she pours a few into hers and just quietly there's no words exchanged because we're so perplexed and I don't know she must have been having a good day or a bad day I don't know I'd asked her she doesn't remember the day at all which is hilarious to

me because it's so vivid in my memory and we just ate these warm Brown sugary sugar babies that have been very intentionally Med by the Sun and I don't remember anything else about what happened that day what happened afterwards I remember it was done in complete silence and it was the equivalent of when you watch someone as an adult eat something really good and they just go and you can see there sort of like eyelids Flicker and take them somewhere Why Live food not free that's like my first that's my first divid memory as a

kid that was joyful and to do with sugar and dessert so do you what I find Aston thank you for sharing that by the way what I find astonishing about you and we've never talked about this is that story bait club and almost everything we've ever talked about today is the exact same story H so which you've used the word invitation so many times today I don't even know if you've even realized it you keep saying invitation invitation and who Who You Are is like you surprise people with sugar and I don't mean literally you

surprise people with sweetness and that you happen to be a dessert person is just it's just poetic but but the way you describe bait Club is it started off in Co to be this little surprise you show up no matter what nobody and it's if you use the what happened when that car as a kid it's the same experience for people they don't know what they're going to get they don't know what kind of mood you're in but all you know is you show up for other people your mother showed up for the kids no

matter you don't know what mood she's in people don't know what mood you're in but you're going to give them a little something that just brightens their day and that's who you are you oh stop you're gonna make me you you you you you're you are an introvert you're also close to the vest you're hard to read you know there are times I've hung out with you I don't know if you're in a good mood or a bad mood and then all of a sudden biscuits come out and this you are you have become your

mother where we're kind of in the back seat going about our day and then all of a sudden something happens we don't know what's going on and the result is something delightful and sweet and that's what it is to be your friend and that's what it is to be in bait club and that's what it is to work at Milk Bar you know it's kind of like we're going through our routines and then you interrupt our routines with a little bit of magic and that's that's you your purpose on this planet is to perpetuate what

your mother instilled in you that day to do the extra to do the extra to go the extra length it's that's what it is it's not that she just gave you the candy she went to the extra length of of preparing the candy and warming it in the sun you you you said she she she she they were heated intentionally and that's what you do it's with great intention that you make preparations to surprise people with a little bit of sweetness in their lives just a little bit to keep them going that day that's what

you do you make you put in a lot of effort what what the you know it warming the candy on the dashboard uh has become an entire business and Enterprise for you a lot of effort a lot of thought for a little bit of magic and a little bit of sweetness for the rest of us because you're always thinking about us and your customers and your friends feel so seen I feel so seen and also therapized in a way that you know I talk about cause a lot and sacrifice and um people always ask me

like how do you like I I believe in quitting like you know I don't believe in like stubbornness to the to to a self-destructive level but the question is how do you know when to quit right and for me the sacrifice has to feel worth it like I'm giving a lot not sleeping a lot working a lot but the impact that I'm having and if you ask me to do the equation it feels worth it and if it no longer feels worth it you know you have struck that balance where tremendous amounts of effort but

it's all worth it you're one of the hardest working people I know on the planet you don't rest but the amazing thing is to you whether it's having guests over to your house or whether it's bait club or whether it's the milk Enterprise it's worth it because you get two little kids in the back seat to smile and have a little bit of joy and carry memory for the rest of their lives and we carry the memory of talking in the woods and we carry the memory of our childhood when we eat cereal milk ice

cream it's all the same story insane it's so true how many memories do you have not that many right they we only remember the things that matter toy I love you love me if you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts and if you'd like even more optimism check out my website simon.com for classes videos and more until then take care of yourself take care of each other