Happiness at Work

>> Steve: WORK IS AS INEVITABLE FOR MOST OF US AS, WELL, THOSE OTHER INEVITABLES, DEATH AND TAXES. AND SOMETIME IN THE LAST FEW DECADES THE CONVERSATION ABOUT WORK TURNED TO THE IDEA THAT IT SHOULD BE REWARDING AND EVEN A SOURCE OF HAPPINESS; THAT IS, IF YOUR EMPLOYER IS DOING IT RIGHT. WHAT'S BEHIND THAT NOTION AND IS IT REALLY YOUR BOSS'S JOB TO WORRY ABOUT MAKING YOU HAPPY?

WITH US NOW TO CONSIDER THAT: IN BERKELEY, CALIFORNIA: EMILIANA SIMON-THOMAS, SCIENCE DIRECTOR OF THE GREATER GOOD SCIENCE CENTER AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY. AND HERE IN OUR STUDIO: DAVID ZWEIG, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF ORGANIZATIONAL BEHAVIOR AND HR MANAGEMENT, AND CHAIR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MANAGEMENT AT U OF T SCARBOROUGH; TARA HENLEY, JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR OF THE FORTHCOMING BOOK, "LEAN OUT: A MEDITATION ON THE MADNESS OF MODERN LIFE"; AND STEVEN CARDWELL, FOUNDER AND PRINCIPAL AT STEVEN CARDWELL RECRUITMENT. WE ARE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME YOU THREE HERE IN OUR STUDIO, AND EMILIANA, ON THE LEFT COAST OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT AS WELL. I'M GOING TO ASK OUR DIRECTOR, SHELDON OSMOND, OFF THE TOP HERE TO GIVE US A SHOT SO WE CAN SEE EVERYBODY. THERE WE GO.

OKAY. BY A SHOW OF HANDS, EVERYBODY, WHO IS HAPPY IN THEIR JOB? HANDS UP.

ONE, TWO, THREE -- EVERYBODY, OKAY. WELL, WE'RE OFF TO A FLYING START HERE. THAT'S GOOD.

I'M PUTTING MY HAND UP TOO. PRODUCER, LEANNE COTLER PROMPTED ME IN MY EAR, WHAT ABOUT YOU? TARA, A FEW YEARS AGO, YOU WERE HAPPY IN YOUR WORK, RIGHT?

>> Tara Henley: YEAH. >> Steve: AND THEN YOU STEPPED AWAY. WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I DID STEP AWAY. SO FOR ME, I WAS EXPERIENCING QUITE A BIT OF BURNOUT. I WAS DEALING WITH SOME HEALTH PROBLEMS.

I STARTED HAVING -- I'M A JOURNALIST. I STARTED HAVING CHEST PAINS IN THE NEWSROOM AND MY DOCTOR COMPELLED ME TO STEP AWAY. AND SO DURING THE TIME THAT I WAS AWAY FROM THE WORKFORCE, I STARTED THINKING A LOT ABOUT HOW WE ORGANIZE WORK NOW, THE SYSTEMIC PRESSURES ON WORK AND THE INDIVIDUAL, AND I BEGAN TO THINK OF THIS AS A BIGGER PICTURE ISSUE, ONE THAT EVERYBODY IS EXPERIENCING AT WORK AND HOW DOES THAT TIE INTO THE BIG ISSUES OF OUR AGE.

>> Steve: WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS NOT WORKING FOR YOU AT THE TIME THAT MAY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO WHAT YOU WERE FEELING IN YOUR CHEST? >> WELL, DEFINITELY OVERWORK. I THINK LIKE MOST PROFESSIONALS, I WORK VERY LONG HOURS AND I'M VERY DEDICATED TO MY JOB AND I LOVE MY JOB.

BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT WORKING LONG HOURS DOES TAKE A TOLL ON INDIVIDUALS, ON FAMILIES, ON COMMUNITIES, AND ON HEALTH. AND SO I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF FACTORS AT PLAY AND A LOT OF FACTORS TO LOOK INTO WHEN IT COMES TO THAT. >> Steve: WAS YOUR EMPLOYER NICE?

>> MY EMPLOYER IS FANTASTIC, YES. >> Steve: SO THAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE. >> NO.

NO, IT WAS NOT. >> Steve: OKAY. HOWEVER, FAIR TO SAY, THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DON'T HAVE THE STAMINA TO MATCH THEIR ENTHUSIASM FOR THE JOB?

>> EXACTLY, EXACTLY. AND I THINK THE EXPECTATIONS ON WORKERS HAVE CHANGED SO MUCH, ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST DECADE SINCE SMARTPHONES BECAME A BIG PART OF ALL OF OUR LIVES. >> Steve: BANE OF OUR EXISTENCE.

>> WE'RE ALWAYS ON AND THAT DOES TAKE A TOLL. >> Steve: EMILIANA, YOU RECENTLY WROTE ABOUT WORK AND YOU SAID WHERE YOU GREW UP, WORKED SUCKED. WHAT'S THE NOTION THAT WORK IS SOMEHOW SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPY AND FULFILLING AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS?

>> Emiliana Simon-Thomas: WELL, I THINK THAT HUMANS PREFER TO BE HAPPY. OUR HEALTH IS TIED TO HOW HAPPY WE ARE. AND ULTIMATELY, IF WE'RE SPENDING OUR TIME, THE MANY HOURS THAT WE SPEND, UP TO 50 PERCENT OF OUR WAKING HOURS, IF WE'RE SPENDING THOSE HOURS UNHAPPY, IT'S GOING TO BE QUITE DIFFICULT TO ACTUALLY LIVE A HAPPY LIFE.

I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY QUICK WHAT I MEAN BY "HAPPY" ISN'T FEELING GOOD IN THE MOMENT, ISN'T A UNIQUE AND MOMENTARY POSITIVE STATE. WHAT I MEAN IS A MORE GENERAL OVERARCHING QUALITY OF LIFE THAT YOU WOULD DESCRIBE AS LOOKING BACK, I'M A HAPPY PERSON, AND I TEND TO BE A HAPPY PERSON AT WORK. >> Steve: MY HUNCH IS, THOUGH, THAT THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WATCHING THIS WHO DON'T HAVE ONE OF THOSE JOBS THAT MAKES THEM HAPPY, AND EVEN BEYOND THAT, ARE UNDER NO EXPECTATION THAT THEY OUGHT TO BE SORT OF HAPPY AND FULFILLED AT WORK.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM? >> YEAH. I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN CONSIDER IS WHAT TARA SAID WAS THAT SHE REALIZED THAT SHE WAS EXPERIENCING BURNOUT.

SO I DON'T HOLD THE EMPLOYER OR THE ORGANIZATION OR THE COMPANY 100 PERCENT RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING A PERSON HAPPY. IN FACT, NONE OF THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE SUGGESTS THAT ANYONE CAN MAKE ANYONE ELSE HAPPY. IN FACT, HAPPINESS REALLY COMES FROM A COORDINATED EFFORT THAT COMES BOTH FROM THE INDIVIDUAL MAKING CERTAIN PRIORITIES, REACHING OUT TO OTHERS -- IN TARA'S CASE, HER PHYSICIAN, WHO ACTUALLY GAVE HER GOOD ADVICE AND GOOD FEEDBACK -- AND OUR COMMUNITIES AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS.

AND ALL OF THESE SORT OF SOURCES OF INFORMATION TOGETHER HELP GUIDE US IN ASPIRING TOWARDS A HAPPIER LIFE. IT'S NOT ALWAYS ABOUT THE ORGANIZATION PROVIDING DESIRABLE PERKS OR SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES. SOMETIMES IT'S A COMBINATION OF BOTH WHAT THE ORGANIZATION, WHAT THE WORKPLACE REALLY CAN DO, WHAT THE CULTURE IS LIKE, WHAT THE CLIMATE'S LIKE, AND ALSO WHAT INDIVIDUALS BRING WITH THEM WHEN THEY WALK IN THE DOOR.

>> Steve: NO, I DO APPRECIATE THAT. DAVID, LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH YOU. IS THERE EVIDENCE THAT A HAPPY EMPLOYER IS A BETTER, MORE PRODUCTIVE EMPLOYEE?

>> David Zweig: WELL, THE EVIDENCE IS A BIT MIXED AND I AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT EMILIANA SAID. WHEN YOU ASKED US TO ANSWER THE QUESTION WHETHER WE'RE HAPPY AT WORK, I RAISED MY HAND, BUT IT'S HAPPY-ISH. THERE ARE PARTS OF MY JOB I FIND HAPPINESS FROM.

THOSE ARE THE PARTS OF THE JOB I FIND REALLY MEANINGFUL. AS CHAIR OF THE DEPARTMENT IT'S HELPING CREATE NEW PROGRAMS FOR STUDENTS, ENSURING THEY'RE HAVING A GREAT EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCE AND WATCHING THEM SUCCEED. THAT MAKES ME HAPPY.

>> Steve: I'VE GOT TO ASK THE OTHER SIDE. >> THE THINGS THAT DON'T MAKE ME HAPPY ARE THE ADMINISTRATIVE TASKS THAT COME WITH THE JOB, VERY MUNDANE, IT'S BUREAUCRACY -- THOSE THINGS DON'T MAKE ME HAPPY. SO I HAVE TO TRY AND FIND THE AREAS IN MY ROLE THAT ARE REALLY MEANINGFUL TO ME, AND I THINK IT'S MEANINGFULNESS THAT UNDERLIES FEELING HAPPY, HAPPY AT WORK, AND THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK IS THE ORGANIZATION'S RESPONSIBILITY, BUT MOSTLY A LEADER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT THE LEADER CAN TRY AND INSTIL THAT KIND OF MEANING INTO WHATEVER JOB THE SUBORDINATES ARE WORKING ON TO TRY TO MAKE THEM FEEL THAT THEIR JOBS HAVE MEANING. >> Steve: IS THERE A TRICK TO ENSURING THAT THE PARTS OF YOUR JOB THAT MAKE YOU UNHAPPY DON'T OVERWHELM THE PARTS OF YOUR JOB THAT YOU REALLY GET THE JOY AND FULFILLMENT FROM? >> IF I KNEW THAT, I WOULD WRITE A BOOK -- NO, BUT IT IS ABOUT TRYING TO, REALLY, WHEN YOU'RE ENGULFED IN THE REALLY BORING STUFF AND THE MUNDANE STUFF, REMEMBERING WHY YOU'RE DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND FOCUSING ON THE LARGER PICTURE, THE LARGER GOAL, WHICH IS TO FOCUS ON WHAT IS GIVING ME MEANING, WHAT DO I FIND IMPORTANT, WHAT DO I FIND MOTIVATING, AND WHERE DO I GET THAT SATISFACTION TO ALLOW ME TO CONTINUE DOING WHAT I'M DOING.

>> Steve: STEVEN, WHAT DO YOU DO FOR A LIVING? >> Stephen Saideman: I'M A HEAD HUNTER. >> Steve: SO YOU MATCH PEOPLE WITH WORK.

>> I DO. >> Steve: TO WHAT EXTENT, AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUNGER PEOPLE NOW, TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOUNGER PEOPLE AND THEIR EXPECTATIONS AS EMPLOYEES MATCH THE REALITY OF WHAT THEIR EMPLOYERS ARE PREPARED TO PROVIDE. >> Steven Cardwell: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION BUT IT ALSO DEPENDS ON THE LEVEL OF THE JOB.

WITH MY EXPERIENCE IN THE RECRUITMENT BUSINESS, WE DO FIND A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE COMING OUT OF SCHOOL, LANDING THEIR FIRST CAREER, SOMETIMES IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A REALITY CHECK ON HOW MUCH PEOPLE MAKE, HOW MUCH THINGS COST, WHICH IS JUST HUMAN NATURE. MOST OF THEM ARE VERY GOOD, BUT THERE ARE THE ODD FEW THAT FEEL THAT THEY DESERVE MORE, AND THIS TOPIC I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO BOTH THE EMPLOYER AND THE EMPLOYEE TO REALLY STEP BACK AND SEE WHERE WE ARE TODAY IN THIS TIME. >> Steve: HOW WOULD YOU GAUGE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EXPECTATIONS, SAY, 25 YEARS AGO, VERSUS EXPECTATIONS TODAY?

>> TOTALLY DIFFERENT. >> Steve: HOW SO? >> TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

WELL, WE WERE TAUGHT TO GO TO WORK, DO THE BEST YOU CAN, TRY TO GET UP THAT CORPORATE LADDER, DEPENDING AGAIN ON WHAT TYPE OF JOB YOU HAVE, MAYBE EDUCATE YOURSELF, TAKE YOUR CAREER TO THE NEXT LEVEL, AND IF YOU WEREN'T HAPPY, LOOK AROUND. GO TO A DIFFERENT COMPANY. LEVERAGE THAT WAY.

>> Steve: AND TODAY? >> AND TODAY, WE SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE NOT STAYING IN JOBS AS LONG AS THEY USED TO, AS WE DID AND MAYBE OUR PARENTS DID. IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE THAT'S A TOPIC WE HEAR ALL THE TIME.

WE USED TO HEAR EMPLOYERS SAY, THEY TALK TOO MUCH. AND NOW WE HEAR THEM SAY, HOW DO THEY GET EXPERIENCE IF THEY STAY AT THIS JOB SIX, SEVEN, OR TEN YEARS. >> Steve: EMILIANA, DO YOU FEEL IT'S REASONABLE OR NOT FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO EXPECT TODAY A LEVEL OF FULFILLMENT OUT OF THEIR JOBS THAT, SAY, THEIR PARENTS OR GRANDPARENTS, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE OCCURRED TO THEM TO DEMAND THAT FROM THEIR WORK?

>> Emiliana Simon-Thomas: I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY REASONABLE. I THINK IT'S UP TO THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS TO EFFECT CHANGE AND TO MAKE PROGRESS. AND SOME OF OUR, YOU KNOW, EARLIER WISER GENERATIONS WERE ACTUALLY PART OF A LABOUR SYSTEM THAT COUNTED ON REPLACEABILITY OF WORKERS, THAT COUNTED ON MORE EXTREME HIERARCHICAL ORGANIZATION STRUCTURE WHICH ACTUALLY REALLY EXPECTED PEOPLE TO SETTLE FOR WORKING CONDITIONS THAT PERHAPS WERE NOT AS FAIR OR EQUITABLE AS THEY COULD BE.

THERE WERE ALSO BIG DIFFERENCES AND OPPORTUNITY THAT WERE A FUNCTION OF YOUR GENDER OR YOUR ETHNIC OR CULTURAL BACKGROUND, AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE CHANGING, AND THE YOUNGER GENERATION IS BRINGING WITH THAT THE EXPECTATION THAT, YOU KNOW, WE OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO FLOURISH IN OUR WORK AND OUR WORK AND THE TIME THAT WE SPEND AT WORK SHOULD BE A SOURCE OF OUR WELL-BEING, NOT SOMETHING THAT DETRACTS FROM OUR WELL-BEING. SO I CERTAINLY WELCOME THE PROGRESS AND THE CHANGE AND THE THINKING THAT'S GOING ON IN THE YOUNGER GENERATIONS AROUND HOW CAN WE TOGETHER FIGURE OUT A WAY TO MAKE WORK SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, CONTRIBUTES TO OUR SENSE OF WELL-BEING, TO OUR HAPPINESS IN LIFE. >> Steve: WELL, TARA, LET ME MAKE THE QUESTION EVEN MORE CHALLENGING.

I TAKE IT THAT YOU LIKE YOUR OCCUPATION BECAUSE IT IS STIMULATING, IT IS CREATIVE, YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR BRAIN, IT CHECKS ALL THOSE BOXES OFF FOR YOU. MY HUNCH IS IF YOU WORKED IN A COAL MINE, IF YOU WORKED IN A TEXTILE FACTORY, YOU WOULD NOT BE A VERY HAPPY PERSON. WHERE DO YOU FIND THE JOY IN THOSE KINDS OF JOBS?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION. I'M SO GLAD EMILIANA HAD BROUGHT UP THE QUESTION OF WORKING CONDITIONS. WE CAN THINK ABOUT WORK ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, WE CAN THINK ABOUT WORK AS INDIVIDUAL CONTENTMENT AND HAPPINESS, BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO PULL BACK AND LOOK AT THE LARGER STRUCTURAL ISSUES AT PLAY HERE, ONE OF WHICH IS -- SPEAKING OF MILLENNIALS, THEY'RE FACING A WORKPLACE THAT IS DRIVEN BY PRECARIOUS WORK, IT'S VERY UNSTABLE, WAGES ARE STAGNANT, WE KNOW THE COST OF LIVING IS GOING UP SO MUCH.

SO PERHAPS WITH PRIOR GENERATIONS WHERE YOU COULD FIND A STABLE LIFE AT WORK IN ONE OF THOSE JOBS THAT YOU MENTIONED, WHERE YOU COULD BE MIDDLE CLASS, YOU COULD HAVE A FAMILY LIFE OUTSIDE OF YOUR JOB AND PERHAPS FIND SOME OF YOUR MEANING THERE, NOW THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY AN OPTION ANYMORE. YOU'RE SCRAMBLING WITH THREE DIFFERENT JOBS, MAYBE ONE FROM AN APP AND TRYING TO MAKE YOUR RENT AND ALL THESE DIFFERENT WAYS. I THINK THAT BREEDS DISCONTENTMENT.

THOSE STRUCTURAL CONDITIONS ARE NOT SOMETHING THAT WE WILL BE ABLE TO ADDRESS ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL. >> Steve: DAVID, IF YOU'RE AN EMPLOYER, THOUGH, AND YOU WANT TO TRY TO INFUSE THOSE -- LET'S JUST CALL THEM REPETITIVE JOBS OR WHATEVER IT IS. IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS THING, YOU'RE GOING TO DO IT A THOUSAND TIMES IN THE COURSE OF A DAY, ASSEMBLING A CAR, WHATEVER IT IS -- >> SURE.

MUNDANE. >> Steve: IT'S MUNDANE, IT DOESN'T CHECK OFF TOO MANY CREATIVE BOXES. AS AN EMPLOYER, HOW DO YOU MAKE THAT WORK MORE MEANINGFUL.

>> David Zweig: I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE. I HAVE SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR ME IS HIS JOB IS TO SCHEDULE 300 COURSES A YEAR IN MY PROGRAM. NOW, THAT'S A PRETTY -- COULD BE A PRETTY MUNDANE JOB.

BUT WHAT I DO IS TRY TO INSTIL IN HIM HOW IMPORTANT IT IS THAT HE DOES HIS JOB WELL BECAUSE DOING THAT JOB WELL MEANS THAT OUR STUDENTS ARE HAVING A GREAT EXPERIENCE, THEY'RE GETTING THE COURSES THEY NEED WHEN THEY NEED THEM WITHOUT CONFLICTS. AND SO IT'S IMPORTANT FOR, AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, FOR THESE TYPES OF JOBS, TO TRY AND INSTIL A SENSE OF MEANING THAT PEOPLE CAN GRAB ONTO AND SAY, OKAY, THIS IS WHY THIS JOB IS IMPORTANT, AND THAT GETS THEM THROUGH, YOU KNOW, HAVING THIS MUNDANE TASK THAT MIGHT BE VERY SIMPLE BUT VERY -- STILL VERY IMPORTANT. NOW, IN THE 1970s, TWO RESEARCHERS CAME OUT WITH SOMETHING CALLED THE JOB CHARACTERISTICS MODEL AND I TEACH IT TO THIS DAY TO MY STUDENTS.

IT'S A MODEL OF JOB ENRICHMENT TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE JOBS MORE INTERESTING, FIND WAYS TO ALLOW EMPLOYEES TO HAVE INTEGRATED NUMBER OF DIFFERENT SKILLS, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR WORK, GET FEEDBACK, AND HAVE MEANING INTO THEIR WORK. AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS, IF WE CAN DO THAT, LEAD TO MORE SATISFACTION, MORE HAPPINESS, AND ULTIMATELY GREATER PERFORMANCE. >> Steve: STEVEN, ESSENTIALLY OUR DISCUSSION HAS BEEN LEADING TO THIS QUESTION, WHICH IS: WHO IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR AN EMPLOYEE'S HAPPINESS.

>> Steven Cardwell: I THINK IT'S BOTH TODAY, I REALLY DO. AND AGAIN, LIKE TARA SAID AND EMILIANA SAID, IT DEPENDS ON THE TYPE OF WORK YOU'RE DOING. YEAH, BIGGER COMPANIES THAT HAVE A BIGGER BUDGET ARE CERTAINLY HELPING WITH A LOT OF ISSUES TODAY THAT DIDN'T COME UP 20 YEARS AGO.

BUT, AGAIN, IF A CANDIDATE IS NOT HAPPY, AN EMPLOYEE IS NOT HAPPY, WHAT DO YOU DO? >> Steve: YOU MENTIONED SOCIAL MEDIA THERE. HOW HAS SOCIAL MEDIA CHANGED THE STATE OF PLAY OF WHAT WE'RE DISCUSSING?

>> SOCIAL MEDIA IS AT A BIG STATE OF PLAY, AND ESPECIALLY TODAY WITH GOOGLE REVIEWS AND INSTAGRAM AND FACEBOOK. IF SOMEONE'S NOT HAPPY AT THEIR JOB, IT COULD EXPLODE AND IT CAN GET OUT THERE AND IT COULD BE DEVASTATING AND IT MAY NOT BE DEVASTATING. BUT I THINK THE BEST THING TO DO IS TALK TO YOUR COLLEAGUES, TALK TO YOUR HR DEPARTMENT, AND BASICALLY MAKE SURE, IF THIS IS NOT A JOB THAT YOU'RE HAPPY WITH, MAYBE IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON.

>> Steve: CAN YOU GIVE AN EXAMPLE OF THAT. HOW CAN IT GET DEVASTATING AND FOR WHOM? >> TODAY THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO CLIMB UP THE RANKS, MAYBE THE YOUNGER GENERATION, MAYBE PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT ARE AFRAID TO ASK FOR HELP, AND I THINK THIS IS A GREAT THING TODAY WHERE OUR ECONOMY HAS CHANGED.

HR DEPARTMENTS HAVE CHANGED. AGAIN, IF YOU'RE AFRAID TO ASK FOR HELP, WHAT DO YOU DO? THAT'S THE QUESTION: WHAT DO YOU DO?

AND IT'S VERY SAD TO SEE THE OUTCOME OF THESE SITUATIONS THAT COULD HAPPEN. >> Steve: WELL, I'M GOING TO TALK ABOUT ASKING FOR SOMETHING ELSE. EMILIANA, I WONDER WHETHER ASKING FOR A RAISE AND GETTING IT.

DOESN'T THAT DEAL WITH A LOT OF THESE ISSUES AROUND HAPPINESS? IF YOU GET PAID MORE, YOU'RE HAPPIER, PERIOD. >> Emiliana Simon-Thomas: YEAH.

I MEAN, IN AN IMMEDIATE AND SHORT-TERM SENSE, ABSOLUTELY, IT FEELS GREAT TO TIE YOUR SENSE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT TO A DIRECT AND EXPLICIT REWARD LIKE GREATER PAYMENT OR SOME KIND OF BONUS. HOWEVER, OVER THE LONG-TERM, SALARY LEVELS, BONUSES, THEY REALLY AREN'T AS POWERFUL, INSPIRING A SENSE OF ENDURING MEANING OR PURPOSE OR MOTIVATION OR, ULTIMATELY, HAPPINESS IN THE WORKPLACE. THERE'S A GREAT STUDY DONE BY DAN ARIELY WHERE HE EITHER GAVE PEOPLE MONEY, A BONUS, OR HE HAD THE BOSS CALL THEM UP ON THE PHONE AND SAY THANK YOU AND REALLY DESCRIBE HOW THEIR WORK BENEFITTED THE COMPANY AND THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO THE COMPANY WAS SERVING.

AND HE LOOKED AT PRODUCTIVITY, LOOKED AT HOW HARD THOSE PEOPLE WORKED. AND THE DAY AFTER, THE ONE DAY AFTER THE BONUS OR THE CALL, BOTH GROUPS' PERFORMANCE WENT UP. THEY BOTH IMPROVED.

BUT TWO DAYS LATER, THE PEOPLE WHO GOT THE MONETARY BONUS -- THERE WAS ALSO A FREE PIZZA CONDITION -- THEIR PERFORMANCE WENT BACK DOWN TO ACTUALLY BELOW THE BASELINE. PEOPLE WHO GOT THANKED, THEIR PERFORMANCE MAINTAINED AND STAYED HIGH. SO THERE'S SOMETHING REALLY UNIQUE ABOUT THAT SENSE OF MEANING, THE EXTENT TO WHICH WE'RE CONTRIBUTING TO SOMETHING BEYOND OURSELVES, THE EXTENT TO WHICH THAT'S BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE COMPANY AND THE LEADERS IN THE COMPANY, THAT REALLY MATTERS TO OUR SUSTAINED HAPPINESS AT WORK, MORE THAN JUST HOW MUCH WE'RE GETTING PAID.

OF COURSE, IF WE'RE GETTING PAID ROCK-BOTTOM WAGES, THE WHOLE EQUATION SHIFTS. AND IF PEOPLE ARE MISERABLE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MAKE ENDS MEET, THAT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF CHALLENGE TO HAPPINESS. >> >> Steve: YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL.

WHEN I ASKED THE QUESTION, DAVID, YOU IMMEDIATELY SAID UNDER YOUR BREATH, NO, NO. >> David Zweig: EMILIANA IS RIGHT. PAY IS A SHORT-TERM MOTIVATOR.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE FORGET WHEN WE'RE WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE THE POWER OF SIMPLY RECOGNIZING THEIR WORK AND PRAISING THEM FOR THEIR WORK. THAT IS SUCH A STRONG MOTIVATOR. MONEY IS NOT A MOTIVATOR, AS EMILIANA SAID, MONEY IS ONLY A STRONG MOTIVATOR WHEN PEOPLE FEEL THEY'RE GETTING LESS THAN THEY SHOULD.

WHEN THEY'RE COMPARING TO OTHERS. THAT'S WHEN IT BECOMES A STRONG MOTIVATOR. OTHERWISE, ALL THESE OTHER THINGS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT FOR LONG-TERM SATISFACTION AND HAPPINESS.

>> Steve: STEVEN, DO PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING THEIR FIRST JOBS, THAT HE IS ENTRY-LEVEL EMPLOYEES TODAY, DO THEY SEE A SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THEY UNDERSTAND THAT SACRIFICES TODAY WILL EQUAL LONG-TERM BETTER CAREER IN FUTURE? >> Steven Cardwell: THE SMART ONES WOULD. BUT, AGAIN, THERE'S ALWAYS A CANDIDATE OUT THERE THAT MIGHT EXPECT SOMETHING FASTER.

SO WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU WANT IT FASTER? YOU WORK HARDER. YOU FIND OUT WHAT THE COMPANY IS DOING, MAYBE OUTSIDE OF WORK, INSIDE OF WORK, WHAT TYPE OF -- I GUESS YOU COULD SAY WHAT TYPE OF ACTIVITIES THAT GO THROUGH IN A SOCIAL NETWORK IN A GOOD COMPANY.

THAT ALWAYS CARRIES A LOT OF WEIGHT AS WELL. TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE AND SOMETIMES I FIND IF SOMEBODY'S NOT REALLY, REALLY WILLING TO PUT THAT TIME IN, THEN IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON, LIKE I SAID, IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON. LEVERAGE YOUR CAREER.

>> Steve: TARA, LET ME JUST FINISH YOUR STORY. YOU POINTED OUT YOU WERE VERY HAPPY DOING WHAT YOU WERE DOING AND THEN YOU STEPPED AWAY FOR A WHILE. >> Tara Henley: YES.

>> Steve: BRING US UP TO DATE. >> FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS I SPENT TIME RESEARCHING KIND OF THE BIG ISSUES OF OUR AGE, THE ISSUES THAT ARE POINTED TO WITH THIS DISCUSSION. I ALSO GOT A TRAVEL GRANT, SO I TRAVELED A BIT IN THE WORLD AND TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO WERE RESISTING, OVERWORK, AND ALSO READ PROBABLY 300 BOOKS ON RELATED SUBJECTS.

>> Steve: YOU DID. >> I DID. SO I HAD A REAL OPPORTUNITY FIRST OF ALL TO UNPLUG FROM THE HECTIC DAY-TO-DAY WORK WORLD, AND ALSO TO FOLLOW MY CURIOSITY AND INTERVIEW A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND WHAT I WAS HEARING FROM PEOPLE TIME AND TIME AGAIN IS THAT THIS PACE THAT WE'RE WORKING AT IS UNSUSTAINABLE. PEOPLE ARE EXHAUSTED. >> Steve: UNSUSTAINABLE OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME?

>> WELL, OVER THE LENGTH OF A CAREER. I MEAN, I THINK YOU CAN PUSH FOR A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME. MAYBE YOU CAN PUSH FOR 10 YEARS OR IF YOU HAVE A REALLY STRONG CONSTITUTION, MAYBE YOU CAN PUSH FOR 15 YEARS OR 20 YEARS.

BUT AT A CERTAIN POINT IF YOU'RE WORKING 12 HOURS A DAY, AS MANY OF US ARE, AND NOT TAKING LUNCH BREAKS AND KIND OF SCRIMPING ON VACATIONS AND PERHAPS NOT FINDING TIME FOR THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW THAT REALLY SUSTAIN PEOPLE'S HEALTH, WHICH IS SOCIAL CONNECTIONS AND EXERCISE AND TIME IN NATURE, THAT THE OVERALL SOCIETY IS -- NOT JUST THE INDIVIDUAL BUT THE OVERALL SOCIETY IS STARTING TO BREAK DOWN AS A RESULT. SO I FIND THAT REALLY ALARMING, AND I THINK THAT WE'RE HITTING A VERY CRITICAL POINT IN HISTORY. >> Steve: HOW HAVE YOU CHANGED YOUR LIFE ACCORDINGLY?

>> WELL, FOR ME, WHAT WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WAS, TO YOUR POINT ABOUT MEANING AND PURPOSE, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME IS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. I DID GO BACK TO THE NEWSROOM BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE I FEEL THE MOST USEFUL. BUT I HAVE ALSO DONE A LOT OF INDIVIDUAL THINGS AS WELL AS LOOKING AT THE BIG SYSTEMIC ISSUES, LIKE MAKING SURE THAT I GET PROPER SLEEP AND EXERCISE AND MEDITATION AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW THAT DO HELP ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, BUT THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL IS NOT ENOUGH.

I FEEL THAT I NEED TO BE INVOLVED IN THESE BIGGER SYSTEMIC CONVERSATIONS ON ISSUES LIKE UNPAID OVERTIME, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT CREATE CONDITIONS WHERE IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR INDIVIDUALS TO FIND HUMAN HAPPINESS. >> Steve: I WOULD MAKE A SMART ALEC OBSERVATION HERE THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN WORK IN A NEWSROOM AND STILL GET ADEQUATE SLEEP AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE I DON'T -- >> IT'S AN EXCELLENT POINT. >> Steve: I'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE THAT ONE OUT.

LET ME READ THIS. THIS IS FROM YOUR BOOK THAT IS COMING OUT IN MARCH. IT'S CALLED "LEAN OUT: A MEDITATION ON THE MADNESS OF MODERN LIFE," AND APROPOS OF WHAT YOU SAID, HERE'S A QUOTE FROM THE BOOK: >> Steve: CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW YOU -- OBVIOUSLY EVERYBODY HAS HEARD ABOUT THE BOOK "LEAN OUT" -- EXCUSE ME, EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT THE BOOK "LEAN IN," YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LEAN OUT, AND TALK ABOUT INCOME INEQUALITY.

>> IT'S A BIG LEAP TO MAKE AND LET ME WALK YOU THROUGH HOW I CAME TO THIS CONCLUSION. THE ETHOS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW WITH WORK IS REALLY ORIGINATING IN SILICON VALLEY. IT'S THIS IDEA THAT OUR JOB IS OUR LIFE AND THAT WORKING THESE LONG HOURS HAS SOME SORT OF MORAL IMPERATIVE TO IT.

AND WHAT I DISCOVERED INTERVIEWING PEOPLE AND DOING THE RESEARCH IS THAT WE'VE REALLY UNDERGONE A PRODUCTIVITY REVOLUTION IN THE LAST 30 YEARS. WE ARE WAY MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN WE USED TO BE ON THE JOB. ADD TO THAT WE'RE WORKING MUCH, MUCH LONGER HOURS.

BUT WE KNOW THAT WAGES ARE STAGNANT. AND SO ALL OF THAT VALUE THAT OUR INCREASED PRODUCTIVITY AND OUR INCREASED HOURS IS GENERATING IS NOT EQUALLY DISTRIBUTED, AND SO PEOPLE ARE FINDING IT HARDER AND HARDER TO MAKE ENDS MEET. AND THAT CREATES A LOT OF STRESS, PARTICULARLY THINGS LIKE PRECARIOUS WORK AND THE GIG ECONOMY AND RISING RENTS BEING A HUGE FACTOR.

SO YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING SQUEEZED AND SQUEEZED AND SQUEEZED, AND THAT THAT VALUE THAT THEY'RE PRODUCING ON A DAILY BASIS IS NOT GOING INTO THEIR HANDS. AND SO, WHEN YOU LOOK -- THAT'S IN CANADA, FOR EXAMPLE. IF WE THINK ABOUT THE STATES, WE KNOW THAT THOSE ARE VERY DRAMATIC STATISTICS ON INCOME INEQUALITY.

BUT CANADA IS NOT -- THIS DYNAMIC IS HAPPENING IN CANADA AS WELL. SO OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS, 90 PERCENT OF CANADIANS' INCOME HAS GONE UP 2 PERCENT. THE TOP 1 PERCENT HAS GONE UP 160 PERCENT.

AND WHEN I STARTED LOOKING INTO INCOME INEQUALITY AND WHAT THAT MEANS TO A SOCIETY, YOU FIND THAT ANY SOCIAL INDEX, ANY WAY OF MEASURING THE HEALTH OF A SOCIETY, PLUMMETS. EVERYTHING FROM INFANT MORTALITY TO LITERACY TO MURDER RATES TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, ANYTHING IN THE SOCIETY THAT YOU CAN MEASURE PLUMMETS. AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

>> Steve: HMM. I WANT EMILIANA TO COME BACK INTO THE CONVERSATION HERE AND TALK TO US ABOUT AN ACRONYM THAT YOU QUITE LIKE: PERK. TELL US WHAT THAT'S ABOUT.

>> Emiliana Simon-Thomas: WELL, WE WANTED TO ORGANIZE THE EXTENT -- I DON'T KNOW -- FIELD OF IDEAS THAT ARE OUT THERE ABOUT WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT FOR HAPPINESS AT WORK. AND NOT TO MAKE SOME KIND OF CLAIM THAT THIS IS THE BEST, BUT IT IS CERTAINLY MEMORABLE BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE USED TO THE IDEA THAT A PERK IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER IN LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO WORK OR CONSIDERING A JOB OPPORTUNITY. PERKS ARE USUALLY, YOU KNOW, FREE LUNCH, FLEXIBLE WORKING OPTIONS, VACATION TIME, HEALTH BENEFITS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

WE CAME UP WITH FOUR MAIN IDEAS THAT WE THINK ARE REALLY ESSENTIAL FOR SUPPORTING SOMEBODY'S CAPACITY TO EXPERIENCE HAPPINESS IN THEIR JOB: "P" STANDS FOR PURPOSE, "E" STANDS FOR ENGAGEMENT, "R" STANDS FOR RESILIENCE, AND "K" STANDS FOR KINDNESS. AND THERE ARE A HOST OF IDEAS UNDERNEATH EACH ONE OF THOSE TERMS THAT RELATE TO THEM THAT CAN BE WORKED ON, THAT A PERSON CAN STRENGTHEN OR THAT A COMPANY CAN SUPPORT IN ORDER TO REALLY HELP PEOPLE DISCOVER MORE HAPPINESS AT WORK. SO, YEAH, THE PERK FRAMEWORK FOR HAPPINESS AT WORK IS WHAT WE TEACH IN OUR FOUNDATIONS OF HAPPINESS AT WORK ONLINE COURSE.

>> Steve: WELL, FOLLOW UP, IF YOU WOULD? WHY DID YOU LAND ON THOSE FOUR IN PARTICULAR? >> WELL, WHEN I STARTED TO REALLY TEACH MYSELF ABOUT HAPPINESS IN THE WORKPLACE, I WAS ORIGINALLY SOMEBODY WHO WAS AN EXPERT IN HUMAN HAPPINESS IN GENERAL.

WHEN PEOPLE SAID, "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TALK ABOUT NEXT? " IT BECAME QUITE CLEAR THAT, AGAIN, WE SPEND SO MANY HOURS AT WORK AND IT'S A PART OF OUR LIVES THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T EXPECT OR REALLY CONSIDER CRITICAL OR CRUCIAL IN TERMS OF HUMAN HAPPINESS WHEN IN FACT JUST BY NATURE OF TIME AND HOW WE SPEND IT AND WHAT OUR BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS DO WHEN WE HABITUALLY ENGAGE IN ONE KIND OF FEELING, IT BECAME CLEAR TO ME THAT HAPPINESS AT WORK MATTERED. AND AS I BEGAN TO REVIEW THE LITERATURE, I JUST NOTICED THAT THERE WERE LOTS OF DIFFERENT SPECIFIC IDEAS.

WE'VE TALKED ABOUT MEANING AND PURPOSE QUITE A BIT IN THIS CONVERSATION. THE GALLUP REPORTS OFTEN FOCUS ON ENGAGEMENT. RESILIENCE AT WORK IS AN IDEA THAT YOU SEE PUBLISHED AT WORK, WHEN PEOPLE STRUGGLE WITH SETBACKS AND CAN'T COPE WITH FAILURE AND ISSUES THAT COME INTO THE WORKPLACE, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER A WORKPLACE IS WILLING TO EMBRACE THAT, WHICH OFTEN THEY'RE NOT.

OFTEN THERE'S THIS NOTION, LEAVE YOUR BAGGAGE AT HOME, WHICH CAN BECOME QUITE HARMFUL. AND LASTLY KINDNESS, WHICH IS REALLY PROBABLY THE MOST ORIGINAL CONTRIBUTION FROM THE GREATER GOOD SCIENCE CENTRE BECAUSE OUR FOCUS IN GENERAL, WELL-BEING, IS ON HOW IMPORTANT OUR SUPPORTIVE, TRUSTING, BENEVOLENT COOPERATIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH TO OUR HEALTH AND WELL-BEING, AND WHAT WE ARGUE IS THAT STANDS TO BE THE CASE IN THE WORKPLACE ALSO. WHEN PEOPLE TRUST THEIR COLLEAGUES, WHEN THEY SHARE KNOWLEDGE, WHEN THEY WORK TOGETHER WILLINGLY, WHEN THEY SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER THROUGH THE DIFFICULT TIMES, YOU'RE WAY MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE HAPPINESS AT WORK, AND THOSE THINGS ARE REALLY EASY FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO WORK ON, AND ALSO PRETTY CHEAP FOR COMPANIES TO INVEST IN.

IT'S NOT A REALLY EXPENSIVE ORDEAL TO CREATE A CLIMATE OR A CULTURE OF FRIENDLINESS AND SUPPORTIVENESS. SO THAT'S REALLY HOW WE CAME UP WITH IT. WE SAW A FIELD OF IDEAS AND THOUGHT, LET'S TRY TO ORGANIZE THESE IN A WAY THAT'S MEMORABLE AND THEN GIVE PEOPLE SPECIFIC STEPS AND PRACTICAL WAYS THAT THEY CAN STRENGTHEN SOME OF THE SKILLS UNDERNEATH THEM AND REALLY REALIZE GREATER HAPPINESS AT WORK.

>> Steve: I'M GOING TO PULL A LITTLE AUDIBLE HERE. GIVEN THAT THERE WAS AN NFL PLAYOFF GAME NOT TOO FAR FROM WHERE YOUR UNIVERSITY IS THIS PAST WEEKEND AND YOU HAVE ANOTHER NEXT WEEKEND, EMILIANA, THE SAN FRANCISCO 49ers ARE HAVING A REALLY GOOD SEASON, I WANT TO PUT THIS TO DAVID. I WATCHED A LOT OF FOOTBALL THIS PAST WEEKEND AND THE ONE BEFORE THAT TOO AND SO DID A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND I DON'T THINK WE NECESSARILY SAW A LOT OF KINDNESS ON THE SIDELINES WHEN TEAMS WERE BEHIND. IN FACT, THERE WAS QUITE THE OPPOSITE. THERE WOULD BE COACHES GETTING RIGHT IN THE FACE OF PLAYERS WHO WEREN'T DOING WELL AND SCREAMING A BLUE STREAK AT THEM TO GET THEM TO IMPROVE THEIR PERFORMANCE.

SO MY QUESTION IS: OKAY, PURPOSE, ENGAGEMENT, RESILIENCE, KINDNESS. ARE THOSE ALWAYS THE TICKET TO A HAPPIER EMPLOYEE AND MORE EFFECTIVE WORKPLACE BECAUSE I SURE SAW EXAMPLES THIS WEEKEND WHERE IT WASN'T. >> I THINK THERE ARE BETTER TICKETS THAN BEING HARSH AND CRITICAL AND TRYING TO MOTIVATE PEOPLE THROUGH FEAR.

I STUDIED THE OTHER SIDE. I STUDIED DEVIANCE IN THE WORKPLACE, KNOWLEDGE THEFT AND KNOWLEDGE HIDING AND CYNICISM. I DO AGREE THAT KINDNESS IS DEFINITELY IMPORTANT TO PROMOTE IN AN ORGANIZATION TO TRY AND LIMIT THAT KIND OF REACTION FROM EMPLOYEES, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE PURPOSE IS KEY, RIGHT?

SO IN THAT ACRONYM, "PURPOSE" IS ABSOLUTELY KEY. BECAUSE FROM PURPOSE, ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS TEND TO FLOW. GETTING PEOPLE -- AGAIN, AS WE SAID EARLIER -- GIVING A SENSE OF MEANING ABOUT WORK, WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND HOW IT FITS WITH THE HIGHER ORDER GOALS OF THE ORGANIZATION IS REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE.

>> Steve: SO PURPOSE MEANING WIN THE SUPERBOWL; THAT COVERS OFF A LOT OF EVERYTHING. >> SURE. IN THE SPORTS WORLD, MAYBE THAT'S EFFECTIVE.

IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE IN NORMAL ORGANIZATIONAL SETTINGS, OF COURSE. WE CAN'T DO THAT. WE CAN'T TREAT OUR EMPLOYEES LIKE THAT.

IT JUST IS NOT EFFECTIVE. >> Steve: TARA, I'VE WORKED IN PLENTY OF NEWSROOMS WHERE THE DIRECTOR DRESSING DOWN EMPLOYEES OFTEN IN FRONT OF OTHERS IS A WAY TO MOTIVATE PEOPLE TO DO BETTER ON THE JOB. IS THAT ALLOWED ANYMORE?

>> Tara Henley: I MEAN, I DON'T SEE A LOT OF THAT. IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU WOULD TALK ABOUT KINDNESS TODAY. I WAS THINKING ABOUT BEING IN THE NEWSROOM WHEN THE IRAN TRAGEDY STRUCK THIS LAST WEEK AND JUST THE FEELING OF INCREDIBLE SOLIDARITY IN THE NEWSROOM REALLY HELPED ALL OF US TO GET THROUGH THE REAL PAIN OF SPENDING HOURS AND HOURS ON THE PHONE INTERVIEWING VICTIMS' FAMILIES.

AND SO I ACTUALLY SEE A LOT OF SOLIDARITY IN THE NEWSROOM. I SEE A LOT OF KINDNESS IN THE NEWSROOM AMONG COLLEAGUES. AND I THINK THE ISSUE OF KINDNESS ON A BROADER SCALE IS SUPER-IMPORTANT BECAUSE IN THE WORKPLACE AND IN SOCIETY, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH KINDNESS CAN EXIST WITHOUT JUSTICE.

AND I THINK AT THE POINT THAT WE'RE AT RIGHT NOW WITH WORK, I THINK WE NEED MORE JUSTICE TO ENABLE PEOPLE TO INTERACT AS HUMAN BEINGS WITH EACH OTHER AT WORK, SO THAT IF PEOPLE ARE NOT SO STRESSED ABOUT JUST FINDING THEIR RENT AND, YOU KNOW, GETTING ENOUGH TO EAT AND STRINGING TOGETHER DIFFERENT JOBS, THEN YOU ARE ABLE TO BE KIND AND GENEROUS WITH OTHER PEOPLE. BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT YOU CAN DO IF YOU'RE REALLY STRESSED. >> Steve: WE ACTUALLY HAVEN'T SAID YET THE NEWSROOM THAT YOU WORK IN.

DO YOU WANT TO SAY? >> OH, SURE, THAT'S FINE. I WORK AT CBC.

>> Steve: WHICH PART? >> CURRENT AFFAIRS FOR METRO MORNING. >> Steve: METRO MORNING.

YOU'VE GOT A NEW HOST YET? >> (LAUGHING) WE'RE LOOKING RIGHT NOW. >> Steve: MATT GALLOWAY HAS MOVED ON.

>> MM-HMM. >> Steve: STEVEN, LET ME PUT THIS TO YOU: HOW SERIOUSLY DO YOU THINK EMPLOYERS TAKE THEIR ROLE IN THIS EQUATION OF MAKING THEIR EMPLOYEES HAPPY? BECAUSE CLEARLY WE TALKED ABOUT SOME EXAMPLES HERE TODAY WHERE MANY EMPLOYERS DON'T FEEL ANY OBLIGATION AT ALL TO MAKE SURE THEIR EMPLOYEES ARE HAPPY.

THEY JUST WANT THEM TO DO THE JOB. >> CORRECT. I TRY TO DEAL WITH THE COMPANIES IN OUR AGENCIES THAT HAVE A GOOD REPUTATION.

I'VE RECRUITED CANDIDATES FOR COMPANY A WHERE THEY WOULD SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO WORK THERE. THEY HAVE A BAD REPUTATION. " SOMETIMES WE CAN TURN IT AROUND.

SOMETIMES WE CAN'T. SO I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING WE TALKED ABOUT TODAY: KINDNESS, TRYING TO HELP THEIR EMPLOYEES, MEMBERSHIPS TO THE GYM, WHATEVER THEY CAN DO. SOMETIMES IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT MONEY.

GOING INTO WORK, DOING YOUR BEST, WALKING OUT THAT YOU'VE ACHIEVED SOMETHING. BUT ON OUR SIDE WHERE WE'RE HUNTING PEOPLE TO GO WORK FOR A COMPANY THAT DOES HAVE A BAD REPUTATION AND WE KNOW THEY HAVE A BAD REPUTATION, THAT IS VERY HARD TO DEAL WITH. WE HAVE TO TURN THE BUSINESS DOWN.

>> Steve: WHAT DO YOU DO? WILL YOU STEER PEOPLE AWAY FROM WORKING AT A PLACE THAT YOU KNOW IS NOT A HAPPY PLACE TO WORK? >> WHEN I'VE HAD CANDIDATES THAT HAVE HAD OFFERS AND THEN THEY COME TO ME AND WE'RE TRYING TO GET THEM PLACED SOMEWHERE ELSE, I'M GOING TO BE HONEST ALL THE TIME, OKAY?

AGAIN, REPUTATION IS EVERYTHING, AND IF THE CANDIDATE HAS THE KNOWLEDGE AND KNOW-HOW, I THINK ANYBODY CAN FIND OUT SOMETHING ON A COMPANY IF THEY REALLY, REALLY LOOK. >> Steve: WHAT IF A COMPANY, WHICH HAD A BAD REPUTATION, CAME TO YOU AND SAID WE'RE LOOKING FOR A CEO, CAN YOU PLACE SOMEBODY FOR US? WOULD YOU TAKE THE DEAL?

>> WE'VE DONE THAT MANY TIMES, STEVE, AND WE'VE GONE IN IF IT'S A LOCAL COMPANY AND WE'VE BEEN 100 PERCENT STRAIGHT WITH THE EMPLOYERS, SAYING, LOOK, THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO WORK FOR YOU. >> Steve: YOU'VE SAID THAT TO PEOPLE? >> WE'VE HAD THE PHONE HANG UP OR PEOPLE SAY, OKAY, GUYS, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO.

>> Steve: ARE THERE PARTICULAR WORK CIRCUMSTANCES THAT PRECLUDE HAPPINESS AT ALL? >> David Zweig: SURE, THERE ARE. I WANT TO GET BACK TO STEVEN'S POINT.

IT'S GREAT THAT ORGANIZATIONS OFFER THINGS LIKE GYM BENEFITS, YOGA CLASSES, WHATEVER. BUT IF I GO TO YOGA FOR AN HOUR AND I CAN STEP AWAY FROM WORK AND GET THAT BREAK FROM WORK AND I COME BACK TO A REALLY BAD SITUATION WITH MY BOSS OR THE JOB THAT I'M DOING OR MY JOB IS REALLY MUNDANE, GETTING BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, ALL OF THAT GOES OUT THE WINDOW. SO IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT THE COMPANY -- IT'S GREAT THAT COMPANIES OFFER THIS STUFF.

BUT DON'T EXPECT THAT IF THE JOBS THEMSELVES ARE NOT INTERESTING, THEY'RE NOT MEANINGFUL, YOU'RE NOT GETTING PAID FAIRLY, YOU'RE OVERWORKED, THAT JUST GIVING YOUR EMPLOYEES AN HOUR AWAY FROM IT IS GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY AND PRODUCTIVE, BECAUSE IT WON'T. SO YOU HAVE TO WORK NOT ONLY ON THOSE PERKS BUT ALSO ON THE STRUCTURE OF THE JOBS THEMSELVES, THE LEADERSHIP, AND, YOU KNOW, THE FAIRNESS ISSUES THAT YOU RAISE, WHICH ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. >> Steve: WE'RE DOWN TO OUR LAST MINUTE HERE.

CAN I GIVE IT TO EMILIANA IN THE HOPES THAT SHE WILL OFFER SOME ADVICE TO ALL OF THE EMPLOYERS WHO ARE WATCHING RIGHT NOW. WHAT'S ONE THING THEY CAN DO TOMORROW WHEN THEY GO TO WORK TO MAKE THEIR WORK PLACES A LITTLE HAPPIER? >> Emiliana Simon-Thomas: YEAH.

THE ONE THING I WOULD RECOMMEND IS SHARE SOME STORIES WITH YOUR EMPLOYEES ABOUT HOW THE WORK THAT YOU DO AND THE WORK THAT THEY ARE DOING IS SERVING SOMETHING BEYOND THEMSELVES. HOW IS IT SERVING THE GREATER GOOD. HOW IS IT HELPING OTHER PEOPLE.

HOW IS IT DOING SOMETHING TO CHANGE SOCIETY FOR THE BETTER OR TO LEAD TO POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING EXPERIENCES, OR INTELLECTUALLY ENRICHING EXPERIENCES FOR OTHER PEOPLE. I REALLY THINK MEANING AND PURPOSE HINGES ON THAT EXTENT, FEELING THAT WHAT YOU DO MATTERS TO SOMETHING BEYOND YOURSELF AND THOSE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS ARE REALLY THE NEXUS OF INITIATING A PATH TOWARDS HAPPINESS AT WORK. >> Steve: AND WITH THAT, WE THANK EMILIANA SIMON-THOMAS, THE SCIENCE DIRECTOR AT THE GREATER GOOD SCIENCE CENTRE AT BERKELEY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA FOR BEING ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

AWFULLY GOOD OF YOU TO JOIN US FROM CALIFORNIA, EMILIANA. AND TO OUR GUESTS HERE IN STUDIO, DAVID ZWEIG, CHAIR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MANAGEMENT, U OF T SCARBOROUGH, TARA HENLEY, LOOK FOR HER BOOK IN MARCH, AUTHOR OF "LEAN OUT: A MEDITATION ON THE MADNESS OF MODERN LIFE" AND STEVEN CARDWELL THE GENERAL MANAGER AT STEVEN CARDWELL RECRUITMENT. THANKS ALL OF YOU FOR APPEARING WITH US ON TVO TONIGHT.

MUCH APPRECIATED. >> THANK YOU. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.