Luigi mangion the man some see as a villain others see as a hero he's back in New York right now the same bustling City where police say mangion laid in wait for the CEO of United Healthcare to walk by before shooting him in the back and killing him now not only does he face criminal charges in both Pennsylvania and New York State he faces federal charges too and the newly unsealed federal complaint is giving us a look at a potential motive behind the seemingly targeted attack while welcome to sidebar presented by law on crime I'm Jesse Weber hey guys so this is pretty scary did you know that children are being diagnosed with serious conditions like type 2 diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and the research is potentially linking Ultra processed foods to this yeah well Morgan and Morgan is stepping into to fight to hold these food companies accountable with Decades of experience fighting large corporations they are ready to stand up for the families who deserve justice so if your child is under 21 and has been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes or fatty liver disease visit www. the. com food to learn more all right big day 26-year-old Luigi mangion the suspected killer of United healthc Care CEO Brian Thompson officially back in New York City after he waved extradition this morning at the courthouse in Blair County Pennsylvania Pennsylvania is where of course he was apprehended days after the shooting of Thompson outside of the Hilton hotel in Midtown Manhattan and remember Manion was arrested in McDonald's in Altuna Pennsylvania and when he was arrested law enforcement apparently found this 3D gun this 9 mimet pistol silencer suppressor in his possession as well which authorities say all of this was consistent with the weapon that was used to kill Brian Thompson and also found on him is what's believed to be the fake gu D that he allegedly used to check into a New York hostel in the days before the murder so what happened mangion arrived handcuffed in a bright orange gel jumpsuit according to New York Times Reporter in the room mangion gave short answers to the judge when asked if he understood what he was agreeing to the report from the times also noted that mangion was very expressive at the defense table nodding shrugging raising lowering his eyebrows and in Pennsylvania mangion is charged with possession of an unlicensed firearm Forge and providing false identification to police but he really faces the more serious charges in New York so State charges he faces 11 in total he's charged with three counts of murder including first-degree murder committed in furtherance of terrorism that could mean life in prison if he's convicted he's also F facing second degree murder two second deegree murder charges one of them also is in relation to terrorism but here's the thing when mangion was brought back to New York he didn't appear in State Court Court to face State charges no no no no no he appeared in federal court why because he is now facing federal charges as well the complaint charges him this federal complaint that was unsealed charges him with four crimes stalking travel and Interstate Commerce stalking use of Interstate facilities murder through use of a firearm and a Firearms offense and by the way this is a a complaint obviously there will need to be a grand jury indictment with talk about that a little bit more but after the hearing in Pennsylvania mangion left the courthouse in the custody of officers from there he was put on a chartered plane flown straight to New York City he touched down a reporting indicates in Long Island was transported via helicopter to New York City and based on reporting and photos that were released he was heavily guarded by law enforcement in fact according to CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller quote the security around mangion today is because of what they've been seeing in terms of the public support for him and their security worries about somebody not trying to attack him but to try and free him from law enforcement that's an interesting perspective because that could definitely be the case given this large outpouring of support for Manion and the killing of Thompson you know you've seen this amongst a certain segment of the population those who have this resentment towards the health insurance industry United healthc Care and or Corporate America but that didn't stop New York city mayor Eric Adams from being one of the people who actually escorted mangion after he landed in that helicopter and remarks today mayor Adam said the act of terrorism the violence that stems from manon's case is something that will not be tolerated in the city we wanted to personally be here to show the symbolism of leading from the front he added a person that uses a gun to solve a concern if it's on a school campus or on our streets there are mechanisms in this country for how to organize around those issues of concern and he also said you don't use a gun so this hearing in federal court in the southern district of New York happened and what happened well mangion confirmed to the judge that he understands his rights that he's seen the federal complaint his attorneys apparently didn't fight for bail as prosecutors were asking he' be detained pending trial but the defense said we reserve our right to argue this at a later date so to talk more about the details revealed in the federal complaint and a lot more I want to bring on friend of the show former prosecutor current criminal defense attorney Serena towns and thank you so much for coming on Cyber I really appreciate it thank you so much for having me okay so Serena parts of the complaint confirmed information that we had seen reporting on and other parts kind of gave us new details I'll get to that in a minute but before we even get to all of that I got to ask you about these federal charges here because my understanding is this could bring the death penalty so I first want to start and that's with respect to the murder charge I'll get to that in a second I first have to ask your opinion about the stalking charges so we have the first stock charge uh that is centered around him allegedly traveling in interstate commerce namely that he went from Georgia to New York with the intent to kill and place Thompson under surveillance with the intent to kill him and then we have count two stalking by the intent with the intent to kill and placing him under surveillance with the intent to kill and that Manon allegedly used an electronic Communication Service and system of Interstate Commerce and a facility namely using a cell phone and internet to plan and carry out the stalking the shooting and killing of Thompson a lot of words I threw out there but basically what we're saying is these two federal charges of stalking with the intent to kill what do you make of those listen honestly I think it's a stretch and you know usually I wouldn't say that usually the feds before they bring any kind of complaint or indictment they have a very strong case normally especially sdny but here's the thing the stalking charges have an element that must be proven and that includes that he placed Brian Thompson in reasonable fear of death I don't know that they're going to be able to prove that element I think look if they prove that Luigi is Luigi and this is the right guy I think they check almost every box of those elements of the stalking charges but again and if you even think of it as a lay person that's what stalking is right it's that fear you're looking behind your back there's this guy who won't leave me alone he's stalking me he's making me fear my life I don't know that they're going to be able to make out that element even in the video of the shooting that we saw Brian Thompson does not seem like he's in fear he seems like he got shot in the back without knowing it was coming just to be clear you're saying in order for a stalking charge to work the victim or the alleged victim has to know they're being surveilled essentially one of the elements in that in those two stalking charges is that he placed that person in reasonable fear of death and I don't know that they're really going to be able to prove that Brian Thompson feared his death and I know it seems like just a technicality but there is a reason for certain charges to be able to be charged and met and I just don't know that they're going to get there um I am curious about what they found on his on the websites and on the internet usage that he had because I know that they referenced the fact that he was on a cell phone they apparently had seen him on a cell phone during their you know when they found surveillance footage of what they claim is him um but I don't know that they know the content of that phone call I don't know what they know um they will probably have to seize his electronic um the the electronics that they're relying on the cell phone and whatever laptop computers that he was using to be able to determine what he was doing um and make out the interstate commerce part of those elements too interesting really interesting perspective on that by the way one of the interesting thing was is according to the FBI agents affidavit that accompanied this complaint it says that mangion took a bus to the Port Authority bus station but it's still unclear from the complaint if police knew where mangion got on the bus I mean they say that he traveled from Georgia here but that particular route I always thought the reporting was it originated the bus originated in Atlanta we just didn't know exactly where he jumped on from but maybe we'll learn a little bit more about that um I do want to move on to the murder charge though so the federal murder charge your thoughts on this so let me lay it out here the federal murder charge my understanding says that mangion during the alleged stalking used and carried a firearm to kill Thompson and ended up killing him again my understanding is the reason they want this is because this carries the death penalty so talk to me about whether or not this charge holds water in eyes so truthfully I don't think any of the charges hold water simply because all four of the charges rely on that stalking being made out um and again I know it's that technicality right but every single one of the charges either are for stalking or rely on the stalking even the murder charge says that while committing the act of stalking the crime of stalking he did X Y and Z I really do think that they're gonna have some trouble with this that being said yes I you know the death penalty technically is on the table with that charge and if they can prove all of the elements of that charge technically he could be facing the death penalty although it is rare that that does happen wouldn't an argument be it it doesn't necessarily have to place the victim in reasonable fear of their life but it could have I if he knew what was going on or am I am I reading it too broadly I mean I hear what you're saying I get it maybe it's the stalking that that could be problem here um and look I know why the feds are doing this right it's similar to the murder terrorism charges at the state level this is what this is saying we are trying to deter anyone from doing something like this in the future and that mangion they and they believe he did this needs to be punished that this was a unique egregious murder that deserves the ultimate punishment but you're suggesting I mean again wouldn't they have known that I that's the only thing I I feel like are we reading this too literally because how would they be able to to put forward that charge without I mean it seems like just on the reading of the statute they should have known that there's got to be something more here there could be listen I you know I'm a former prosecutor myself I've seen prosecutors overcharge I've seen things get overlooked in in the idea of just kind of what you're saying which is we just really want to get this guy we think he deserves the worst right so you know sometimes they just hope that it goes overlooked sometimes they use that in order to uh initiate or or try to get a plea deal uh before a case gets dismissed or a charge gets dismissed we have seen overcharging in the past and look those technicalities you know we are reading it very literally but the bottom line is at the end of the day when a case goes to trial and a judge reads charges to a jury they read them very literally and everything has you know everything has a definition to it that being said you know we don't know everything right we know everything that's in the affidavit and that is what they're using to try to establish probable cause but they always say and they do say in this affidavit too we're not telling you everything is it possible that they have some sort of evidence that could substantiate the stalking that we don't know about yet of course there's always the possibility that they know more than we do and by the way just to be clear from a procedural point of view this was a a Federal Criminal complaint it still needs to go in front of a grand jury for ultimately to be indicted right so a grand jury might look at this and agree with you that's true they might um if they're listening you know very specifically to the elements of the crime and they're not presented with the requisite evidence to get them to where they need to be then sure they could choose not to indict of course we also have to remember an indictment relies on a burden of proof that's much lower than a trial burden of proof which is beyond a reasonable doubt and the defense doesn't really have an opportunity to put on a defense in front of a grand jury okay I have a question about this let's say federal charges move forward okay let's say it doesn't have this you know it meets this technical element so according to CNN and more specifically ABC uh Danielle philson who is a spokesperson for the Manhattan District Attorney's office for of Alvin brag this is the state prosecutors not the federal uh a statement was released that said the state case will proceed in parallel with any federal case what does that mean who go first who prosecutes Manion first you know that's a really difficult thing to do and I don't know if it's a little bit premature to say that you know you don't want to step on anybody's toes I would expect that the feds would have precedence here that they would take the opportunity to move this case forward um if they're trying to say it's going to be parallel that's fine but there's a lot of coordination that would need to happen here and I would expect that the feds would not necessarily love for the state to move forward in tandem with them because they want to be able to control their prosecution you don't necessarily want certain things to come out too early you don't want to tip your hat you don't want to show your cards to the other side and I think personally if it were me I would strategize that a bit differently by the way it's based off reporting that Karen fredman annif who's representing um mangion in New York um there's concerns that I think that she's expressed with what we're seeing that he was charged both with what many some you know people could agree with you that these federal charges don't fit some people I've inter interviewed have suggested that the state charges the murder terrorism charges are overly aggressive but I think what she was suggesting was there's it's strange that he's being charged both on a state level and a federal level so quickly in tandem are there any Double Jeopardy concerns I would definitely make that argument if I were his defense attorney is it a good argument though I think it's a fair argument I don't know that it wins the day um but I do think even just on a forget procedurally just on a fairness and Equity mindset is it fair for somebody to be facing murder charges two times in two different kind of jurisdictions it's It's New York but it's Federal and New York State for the same act and for the same crime of murder um I think that double jeopardy was created the exact reason meaning the idea that you can't be prosecuted twice for the same thing uh and be punished twice for the same thing was created for kind of this purpose just do it right you know get if he's the right one prosecute him the right way I do think you're you have the risk of turning off a jury or turning off you know regular civilians who are watching this if you go overboard you know well well the this the clear example would be if he was charged chared with murder at the state level and he is acquitted of murder at the state level he can't be charged again with murder at the state level there have been so many cases that we have covered where one instance one event can be charged at both the state and federal level and there are different charges I mean look at the uh look at the D the Dereck schin case right that's a guy for killing George Floyd he was prosecuted both ways and I mean I think I think it would be tough to argue that I think you can have an overlap um but it's an argument that could be made I just don't think it's necessarily would be a successful argument but we'll see um I do have a question though I want to go through some of the details uh of what this complaint says because we learned new information things that we didn't know before so first the complaint did confirm that multiple 9mm shell casings that were found on the ground at the crime scene had the words deny delay and depose written on them okay and while the federal filing does confirm that Brian Thompson is the CEO of a healthc care company it doesn't actually identify which but we know that Brian Thompson had been a rising star within United Healthcare working his way to the top spot in that company over the last 20 years and it also lays out a timeline okay so let's talk about this November 24th the shooter checks in arrives in New York City at 10:11 p.
m. on a bus that originated from Atlanta Georgia the shooter stays in a hostel on the upper west side registered at that hostel under the name Mark Rosario provided or allegedly provided a fake New Jersey driver's license according to the complaint other than this interaction with the desk clerk the shooter consistently kept his mask on throughout his time in New York including while inside the hostel and as we know a surveillance photo from inside the hostel shows the suspect smiling at the desk clerk that was one of the key pieces of evidence in identifying and locating Mrmangion now it goes on to say that on the morning of December 4th this is the day of the shooting this FBI agent within this complaint says that mangion left the Hostel at around 5:35 a. m.
rode an ebike to the Hilton in Midtown Manhattan once he got there law enforcement says surveillance cameras show him walking around for a while getting a drink and snack at a coffee shop we know that to be the Starbucks and then went to sit on a bench and also it's confirmed that the shooter was depicted using a cell phone we haven't got a ton of information about what he might have been looking at or doing on that cell phone but from there the complaint matches what NYPD was able to reveal from almost the beginning that the shooter steps out from between two parked cars ignoring other bystanders and shoots Thompson in the leg in the back and documents say that he walked across the street to an alley where it's believed he stashed that ebike police said that's where they found by the way the phone as well as a water bottle a snack wrapper in the alley as well which they have reportedly linked back to mangion through fingerprint analysis the shooter rides the bike into Central Park but when he was caught on camera leaving the park he was no longer wearing that gray backpack that he had on him and NYPD officers were finally able to find that backpack in the park that's the one that had the Monopoly money inside now Manion again if Assuming he's the shooter reportedly gets off the ebike when he exits Central Park takes a taxi to the George Washington Bridge bus terminal that's where we get the now Infamous photo of mangion wearing a face mask and Hood sitting in the back of the taxi and that is when authorities knew that he' likely left the as soon as possible because he was seen on surveillance camera going into the bus terminal but not coming out December 9th after evading capture for 5 days the complaint says at approximately 9:14 a. m.
