How to Set & Achieve Massive Goals | Alex Honnold

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold is a professional rock climber. He's best known for successfully free soloing, meaning climbing with no ropes or latching on of any kind, El Capitan, also called El Cap, which is a nearly 3,000-foot climb in Yosemite National Park. It was also, of course, the topic and focus of the incredible movie "Free Solo," Which if you haven't seen, you

absolutely should watch. I've wanted to talk to Alex for a long time now. I'm not a rock climber. I've tried it a few times. But I've been extremely curious to understand Alex's mental frame around learning and training, and his broader philosophy on life. My interest stems from the fact that Alex's free solo of El Cap, and his other climbs make him one of the most accomplished and innovative athletes in all of history. And of course, the free solo of El Cap is extremely high-risk and high-consequence. Today, we discuss how to envision and make progress towards

your goals and how to merge the demands of daily work and family life with incremental training for spectacularly big Or long challenges of any kind. Alex makes clear that it's essential and possible to build your capacity to exert effort and how to do that in a regimented way so as to bring seemingly impossible goals within your reach. We also discuss how coming to terms with one's own mortality is actually one of the best motivators for building a great life and why most people hide from that reality, and as a result, end up living much smaller

lives than they otherwise would. We also discuss training, literally what to do to build strength and endurance, not just for sake of rock climbing, but just generally. And that takes us into discussions about weight training, body weight training, running, hiking, and a bunch of other things that you can apply. Even if you have zero interest in rock climbing, today's conversation with Alex Honnold will definitely change the way that you think about your life, what you can make of it, and how to go about that. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is

separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Alex Honnold. Alex Honnold, welcome. - Thanks for having me. I think "Free Solo" is remarkable for a ton of reasons, but as a good friend of mine, who I think you know, Michael Muller, photographer, he said, before I'd seen the film, he said, "It's wild because you're terrified as an observer

the entire time, but you also know that Alex survives from the very beginning." Which is a very unusual... - But I think some people don't know that. - Oh, really? - Some people watch the movie and they literally have no idea what it's about or what's going on, and they spend the whole movie being like, "Oh, my God, what's going to happen?" - Okay, so I just spoiled it. - Oh, yeah, yeah. At this point, I'm like, "Nobody cares. It's old news." - Well, it's a spectacular feat, and we can go into that feat, but

I'd actually like to drill in a little bit to just your process in general. I'm sure that's changed over time, and feel free to talk about that. But, you know, I'm very curious about sort of notions of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation, right? And I think "Free Solo" is also remarkable because you had cameras on you. It was obviously to be recorded, and you knew you had cameras on you. And yet, I always thought of climbing as kind of a solitary sport, - Mm-hmm. - or things that people do in small groups kind of off the

grid. Things have changed now with social media, The way everything can be posted very quickly or even run live. But when you think about sort of the work that you're doing in terms of progressing and goals and kind of milestones for yourself, how do you envision that? Is this in like a... Do you have a diary? Do you have a process where you sit back and you think, you know, "What would be awesome for me to experience? Would people like to see it?" What's the sort of balance between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation for you? -

So, basically, I think climbing is always intrinsically motivated. I mean, I started climbing when I was a child. I've always loved climbing. I love the movement of climbing, I love the feeling of it, I love the whole experience, you know, and just everything about it's great. But then, you know, now as a professional climber, obviously there is that extrinsic motivation as well where you're like, "Oh, this is how I make a living." And so, I think with the film "Free Solo," it was a really interesting balance of the two where it's like, this is something

that I'd love to do for myself and even if no one else in the world existed, I'd want to do this thing. But then you also know that if the film turns out well, which it did, you know, it's going to be great for your career, It's going to be great for whatever. And so, like, there is that extrinsic motivation as well. And so, then you're always trying to parse out, like, which part is which, and, you know, because you don't want to... particularly with free soloing, you don't want to be too extrinsically motivated because

you don't want to get pushed into something that you're not prepared for or that you shouldn't be doing. Of course, you know, even being intrinsically motivated, you can do something you shouldn't. I don't know, I mean, but you're just constantly thinking about those things as a climber. - In order to free solo El Cap, did you memorize sequences Or is it more sort of like motifs where you kind of know that you're going to do any number of different things in a given pitch? It depends. So, for the hardest parts, I memorized, like for sure,

memorized every aspect of it. But that's only the hardest part, so that was maybe like a third of the route. And then for the easiest third, and some of it is actually quite easy. Some of it's like even a non-climber could climb small sections of the wall. Like, there are parts that are quite easy here and there. You know, it's like not the bulk, but so for the easy parts, you just know that you can do it and you don't have to stress it. And then the medium parts, kind of, like, the remaining third of

the wall, you sort of remember, kind of like you said, motifs. You might know the hardest part and you just kind of know that it's going to be fine, but you don't have to memorize it per se. But certainly, I knew the route very, very well. You know, you just know all the things that you have to know. - You recognize not just holds, but, like, visceral sensations, like this feels different or... Because I imagine conditions change, right? I mean, weather conditions, heat on the rock, shadows on the rock. - Yeah, but not as much

as you might think because I was only climbing it in shade. Like, in the springtime, that whole west side of the wall stays in the shade until 11:00 or noonish in the morning. So, you go at 4:00 in the morning and then you have Sort of eight hours of solid shade. So, normally, the temperature and the conditions feel relatively stable. And you spend the whole season working on it, so you kind of know that tomorrow's going to feel the same as it did today, roughly, you know? And so, it's all within a relatively narrow band.

Particularly in the spring, which is why I did it in the springtime. In the fall and the autumn, it's a little bit different because the sun is lower in the sky, so it gets sun much earlier and it actually is way hotter, counterintuitively. It's, like, colder when it's in the shade but then hotter when it's in the sun. And anyways, that makes it harder for climbing, obviously. But when I free soloed El Cap, I was spending three or four months a year in Yosemite every year. You know, a month or two every spring and every

autumn. And so you're spending four months a year in a place, you just know how it feels, you know? It's like you're used to getting up that early, you're used to climbing on the wall and you're just kind of like, "Oh, it's going to be another beautiful day on the rock." And actually, the day that I did the free solo of El Cap, it was actually a little more humid and a little warmer than I maybe... than would have been optimal. Like, it's not what I would have chosen. But that's just the way it was

that day and I was kind of like, "Well, this is my day," you know? You kind of just have to do the thing. But it'd been, like overcast that night. And you know when it's cloudy at night, the lows don't drop as low? And so I woke up and it was, like, kind of muggy-ish feeling. I was like, "It's not great for being 4:00 in the morning." It feels kind of gross. But I was like, "This is my day," and it was fine. - So, you form a relationship with the rock, you kind of like

learn to recognize its different states. When you did it and completed it, because I know you set out one day and then you called it off. - Yeah, that was in the autumn. - Okay. - That was the season before. - Mm-hmm. - And, basically the season was ending, like, storms were coming in the next week type deal, and it was like, the season was winding down. It was kind of like, "Well, I should at least take a shot," because I'd done a lot of prep and I felt mostly ready. And it turns out I

just wasn't ready, ready, and so I wound up bailing. But that was kind of my end of the season, like, "I think I can squeak this in," knowing that if I couldn't squeak it in then, then I'd have to wait six more months. And with the pressure of the film crew and all that stuff, knowing that there are all these people, like, working and waiting for you, you're kind of like, "Well, I ought to at least try to get this done." _ Mm-hmm. - Because like all these people are waiting on me. But as it

turns out, I just didn't quite have it yet. And then when I ultimately did do it in the spring, I was much better prepared, felt way better, the whole experience worked out better. So, now in retrospect, I'm like, "Oh, I'm glad that it played out that way," because it was better. But at the time it was, you know, I was like, "Oh, God, I failed on this thing. All these people are watching, it's embarrassing." You know, it was all very stressful at the time. - Yeah, the external pressures have to be, you know pretty mighty

especially when they're your friends. I guess one could imagine, like when it's just business- - Mm-hmm. - you can just be like, "Well, it's just business." But yeah, you had a lot of friends up there with you. - For me, the thing is that if I'm going to go climb the wall, you know, I start climbing at 4:30 in the morning or 5:00 or something. So, that means some of my friends, to get in position at the top of the wall, are getting up at, like, 1:00 in the morning and then hiking to the top

of the mountain with a heavy backpack. And if you're asking a bunch of your buddies to go hiking at 1:00 in the morning, like, you better live up to your end of the thing, you know? Like, if you say you're going to do something, you better actually do the thing because your friends... Obviously, no one's complaining. No one is pressuring me. No one's... But at the same time, you don't want to bail. - Sure. - Like, it's pretty embarrassing if you tell someone you're going to do something And then you just can't do it. -

Well, they certainly wanted the outcome to be only one way and... - Yeah. And they were all super positive and supportive - Mm-hmm. - and it's all great, but you still can't help but feel that pressure. - Sure. Well, it certainly worked out. I'm curious, on a scale of one to ten, ten being a total certainty along that trajectory, when you completed it, were there any phases where you felt you had to improvise against the original plan? - You mean on the day of the actual free solo? - On the day of the actual Completion

of the free solo on El Cap. - No, on the day I was 100 percent. Everything was perfect, I knew exactly what to do, it was all amazing. But it took a really long time to get there. - Mm-hmm. - You know, it was like, literally years of building up to it and then months of preparation and everything. But no, on the day, it was perfect. - I'd like to take a quick break and thank our sponsor, Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized

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hop online and you do your session. If you'd like to try BetterHelp, you can go to betterhelp.com/huberman to get 10% off your first month. Again, that's betterhelp.com/huberman. When you climb, I'm curious where your mental horizon is. I can make up a story as a non-climber that your mental horizon is always on just the next maneuver, just getting further up Or further over. - Mm-hmm. - Sometimes, of course, you have to go down and up. But that your sort of time-bending and your space-bending is very, very close. - Mm-hmm. - But do you ever go into

states where you're sort of in automaticity? I mean, we hear about flow, right? - Mm-hmm. - But where you find yourself kind of maneuvering as opposed to being hyper-strategic about what's happening in the next five seconds, ten seconds? - Well, I think the aspiration is to be in that, you know, flow state, whatever you want to call it. But, actually, I think even in the film, there's some quotes from me Saying autopilot and things. Like, you know, I'm aspiring to be on autopilot. - Mm-hmm. - So, I'm aspiring to not be thinking too much about

it. And that's, for me at least, why it required so much practice, was to be able to just do something almost by rote, through repetition, just to do the thing that you've practiced without having to think about it. Because I think once you start thinking about it too much, you're just more prone to not just make errors, but just, like, get too... get caught up in your own mind. And I don't know. I mean, the aspiration was just to do the thing. - Mm-hmm. - Like, no thinking about it, No hesitation, you know, no emotional

affect around it, to just do it. - Mm-hmm. Is the kinesthetic aspect of it big? In other words, are you feeling your way through it, as well as using vision? I mean, I imagine that these things start to blend. - Yeah, I've actually never been asked something quite like that. And in some ways, I mean, the kinesthetic aspect is maybe the whole thing. I mean, it is kind of like dancing or something, where you are just flowing over stone. I mean, obviously, you're looking around and you're looking at your footholds, and you're sort of placing

your feet correctly that way. But really, you're just doing sequences. You're just flowing. Like, your body is moving. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, I think when you climb well, and particularly when you've rehearsed something and you know the climb really well, it feels like jogging or swimming or sort of other elemental movement patterns, where it's just, like, your body doing what it's meant to do, and it feels great, you know? It's like, it's really nice. - Do you ever surprise yourself still, like, that in training things, you know, "I'm surprised that worked out," - Yeah.

- and then stick with that kinesthetic sense? I've been listening to an amazing book by Twyla Tharp. She's a choreographer. She was a ballerina. She's a choreographer and she said that what distinguishes, you know, sort of virtuosity from mastery is when you start to surprise yourself. - Mm-hmm. - And I think you're certainly in that category of virtuoso. How often does surprise come about? - For me personally, that's maybe my favorite moment in climbing, is when you surprise yourself. And this isn't so much with free soloing, because with free soloing, you don't want to be

surprised. But with a rope on, you know, you have moments all the time where you're sure you're about to fall because you're up against your physical limits or whatever, And then you stick a move that you were sure you weren't going to. - Mm-hmm. - And, you know, it doesn't happen that often, but when it does, you're like, "Oh, I exceeded my own expectations." It's like the best feeling, you know? It happens from time to time. - Mm-hmm. - In some ways, actually, I was telling one of my friends, I think that that might be

one of the ways in which I see aging. You know, like, as I'm getting older as a climber, I think I surprise myself less often. I think, as, like, a 24-year-old, you just don't know your own limitations that much, and you frequently surprise yourself, where I'm like, "Wow, I really outdid myself. I really did something that I was sure I couldn't do, but I managed to do it." And now, as a recent 40-year-old, you know, like, that happens from time to time, for sure, but not all the time, you know? It's like... - Mm-hmm. -

And now occasionally, I have things where I was like, "Oh, I was sure I could do that," and then I failed, you know? And you're kind of like, oh, you can blame conditions, you can blame whatever, but you're kind of like, "Oh, I really thought I would do that, and I fell off anyway," and you're like, "Damn it." - What is the role of aging in climbing, traditionally and how you're experiencing it? There are fields of science, like mathematics, where the stereotype is, you know, it's a young person's game, and then there are fields like

biology, which is a bit more incremental, and people can have fantastic discoveries and long careers. Those are academic cerebral endeavors. - Mm-hmm. - But, you know, we have our understanding of this for every sport. For climbing, what's the lure for climbing and for free soloists in particular? That it's an old man's game, it's a young man's game? Woman's game, excuse me. - I don't think anybody calls free soloing an old man's game. But, no it could be. But no, I think in general, climbing has more longevity than most sports, just because it's relatively low-impact on

your body. It's very technique and, like, movement focused, and so it's not just pure physical strength. That said, I mean, climbing is in the Olympics now, and the people winning the Olympics are all sort of 18 to 23-ish, you know, sort of same as gymnastics type of range. - Mm-hmm. - So, I think at the most elite levels of climbing performance, it's kind of similar to gymnastics probably. But then to do interesting, new things on real rock outdoors, I think there's a much wider latitude. - Mm-hmm. - You know, it's like... And then even into

your 50s and 60s, there are plenty of climbers who are leading expeditions to new places, developing new climbs, you know, doing things that are noteworthy and sort of meaningful for the climbing community, even though they're not necessarily cutting edge physically. - Mm-hmm. - So, I think there's a lot of opportunity for climbing, more than most sports. And I think actually, and the other big thing with climbing is that in so many other sports, like, think ball sports, you know, NBA, NFL, baseball, whatever, it's kind of like if you don't make the team, then you're done

playing forever. Like, you'll literally never play football again if you're not a professional football player. Whereas with climbing, even if you're not playing at the highest level, you can still go climb all the time, and you can still do cool climbs. You can still do things that matter. You can help teach. You can do whatever. And so you can kind of, like, stay in the game much, much longer. - You mentioned that climbing's in the Olympics now. We see a lot of sports like skateboarding and climbing now in the Olympics, and these were sports that

traditionally were done... You know, people just go to where these things were done and it wasn't always recorded- - Mm-hmm. - because there wasn't social media back then. - Well, more that there weren't smartphones, there weren't cameras. - Mm-hmm. - It's like, it's not even about the social, it's about whether or not you can record it easily. - Mm-hmm. - But... - So, I'm guessing there's a big influx of young kids getting into this now. Do you see the sport progressing faster? And I'm also curious- - Yeah. - about the culture, whether or not... You

know, any time a sport is in the Olympics, the thing is like, oh, it's kind of quote unquote "sold out now." It's going to change, it's going to become more commercial. So, what's the culture within climbing about this big expansion? What are your thoughts? - I mean, personally, I'm way into it. I mean, I was a kid that got into climbing in the climbing gym, and it's changed my life for the better, you know. Like, I love climbing, I think it's great. You know, I can certainly see the sort of commercial influx from the Olympics

are sort of like more mainstream adoption of climbing. But that's kind of great, because I mean, most of my friends are sort of climbing industry adjacent professionals in some ways. You know, like, they make... They're like coaches or dieticians or setters. Like, they make the climbs that people climb on. And so basically, the bigger the industry gets, the more people like that can make a living doing the thing that they love to do, even if they're not necessarily sponsored professionals at the highest level. So, I'm kind of like, you know, a broadening industry is kind

of good for everybody. And mostly, I mean, climbing's awesome. Like, if people enjoy... You know, it's like, why not get into climbing? It's like certainly... I mean, I think it's better than most other fitness modalities, you know. It's like, oh, why do CrossFit when you can go rock climbing? It's way cooler. - I mean, it certainly seems... - It's way more fun. That's for sure. - And you can do it indoors or outdoors. - Yeah. - There are probably certain aspects you wouldn't want to do alone for safety reasons, but... - I think when people

ask, like, what do you worry about with climbing culture and all that kind of stuff, like with the Olympics and the mainstream appeal, I'm kind of like, you know, if somebody wants to be a climber and only go to the climbing gym in a major city for their entire life, like, that's great. If they just want to climb plastic the rest of their life, that's still better than going to CrossFit or doing whatever else. I'm like, "That's cool." Like, you don't have to go climb El Cap to be a climber. I'm kind of like, people

can do whatever they want, and I think that's great for the sport. And you are seeing standards rise very quickly right now sort of as a result. Just, like, better access to gyms, more kids getting into it. You just see talent rise faster. - I come across social media accounts of parkour kids every once in a while doing absolutely insane stuff in urban terrains usually. - Mm-hmm. - What's the crossover, if any, between parkour and climbing of the sort that you do? - There's a little bit. Not that much, but climbers often... Competition climbing, like

bouldering, which is in the Olympics, has definitely taken a slight turn towards parkour-ish sorts of moves, like big run and jumps and crazy swings and things like that. And so some old school climbers complain that it's, like, gotten a little too jumpy, that type of bouldering. But I'm kind of into it. I mean, I don't know. This is all very, like, inside baseball. Like, how do you separate... Like, basically at the highest level, competitors are all very, very strong, so then how do you separate these different competitors who are all climbing at an elite level?

And one of the ways is complicated movement like that, like run and jumps and coordination and things like that. So, I don't know. I mean, I think it's cool. I've actually met like a couple of professional parkour athletes who also climb. And they are really good at very particular sorts of things, where you're like... I mean, it's amazing to see. - Yeah, I mean, I find a lot of what they do terrifying, but also awesome. I can't help myself but watch. And, just the motivation to work it out too, like, you know, because some of

these are truly make or break or make or die, At least in the form they put to social media. So, I'm always curious, like, what goes into that. And, you know, having grown up skateboarding, I mean, you go around a city and you see stuff, and you're like, "Oh, that would be awesome." And so, I mean, just looking at a landscape, natural or urban landscape in a completely different way, I see a lot of parallels with climbing- - Totally. - and parkour. - Totally. - And also, you know, I think of you at certainly at

the level and kind of parallel with a guy like Tony Hawk, who's been in the sport of skateboarding for a very long time. He's an amazing ambassador for the sport as it's gone through its various, like, you know, peaks and valleys, now in the Olympics. So, I think climbing and sports like skateboarding and surfing have a lot in common in this way. - Mm-hmm. - Subculture, but then also gets popular. - Yeah, where they're kind of niche and then they become kind of mainstream. - Mm-hmm. - But then even once they're mainstream- - Mm-hmm. -

they're still kind of cool, you know. Like skateboarding. - Mm-hmm. It's definitely not, like, full punk rock anymore, But you're like, "It's pretty cool, you know, like, skateboarding still." And it's not that common still, you know. And that's the thing with climbing is I'm kind of like, yeah, climbing's growing, it's becoming more mainstream. It's just never going to be, you know, soccer or something. You know what I mean? It's always going to be slightly niche, slightly counter-cultural because it's just, you know, it's just a smaller thing. It's just not playing basketball or something. - Yeah,

I'm intrigued by the training aspects and some of the fitness aspects. I agree that it... Having only done it a little bit. I mean, I've been to a climbing gym once or twice. - Yeah, I was going to ask you. So, you've gone to the gym and stuff. - Yeah, I've gone up and down the wall a few times and belayed- - Yeah, cool. - for people a few times. But I am by no means skilled at it. - Mm-hmm. It'd be fun to get into because I... Happy birthday, by the way. - Oh, thanks,

thanks. - You just turned 40. I'm turning 50 soon, and I think more about... I'm happy with my strength and endurance, but I think more about mobility now. - Mm. - And also... - Climbing is great for that. - Climbing's great for that. And there's a lot of interesting literature on brain longevity and just maintaining your cognition and the strength of your distal bodies. So, toes and fingers, believe it or not. It's a correlate. Like the toe strength... - Yeah, isn't that... I've always thought that's just a correlation thing. - It's just a correlation. -

But that's not... Yeah, like, because grip strength is just a proxy for all... It means that you use your body a lot, and so therefore you're probably... - Mm-hmm. - You know, when I read those things about, like, if you have strong grip it means this and this and this. - Right. - I'm like, "No, if you have a strong grip it means that you do stuff all the time." - Mm-hmm. - And so, as a result of doing stuff all the time, you're probably sharper than somebody who doesn't do stuff all the time. -

That's right. So, it's a correlate. - Yeah. At the same time, the motor neurons that control trunk movements and contraction of the trunk muscles, like, as you go out from the midline, they're in layers in the spinal cord, so they literally, like, the motor neurons that control, like, the core sit closer to the... - I'm, like, sitting up straighter. I'm like, "Which ones?" - Sit closer in the spinal cord to the midline. And then, you know, across evolution, we evolved from animals with fins and wings, and some of the same genes are used. And eventually,

you get motor neurons that control, like, fine motor movements like this. - Mm-hmm. - And it is true that for some reason, the motor neurons that control the distal body, so toes and fingers, calves and forearms, are more vulnerable to age-related degeneration than the ones for the core. - Interesting. - So, it is possible, we don't know yet, that by maintaining strength of the distal body that you can actually preserve motor neuron and cognitive function, right? It's more of a... - Then I fricking, I'm psyched. - Then you're set, right? - Yeah, yeah, I'm doing

it. And that's why I was curious how climbers, provided they don't fall and kill themselves- - Yeah. - how they age. And there's other things here too, because in some sports, like football and rugby, people are getting their head hit a lot- - Yeah, that doesn't help. - so they don't tend to age well. But I always thought of climbers, you know, in my time up in Yosemite, I'd see young guys like you, and then I'd see these old climbers and I was like, "Man, these guys are in incredible shape." - Mm-hmm. - They're lean,

they're lithe, They seem cognitively fresh. So it seems like it's a sport where people hold onto their faculties pretty well. - Yeah, I think so. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, I think, you know, it's hard to say because there just aren't that many super old climbers, and then a lot of the ones that come to mind, like sort of famous old climbers, I mean, they die the same ways that everybody dies, you know, like cancer or heart disease or whatever, but in their late 80s or whatever. - Mm-hmm. - No, I think climbing is a

great way to age. I mean, I have a bunch of friends who are sort of 50s and 60s who are very fit. Actually, I mean, it comes to mind, There's this friend of mine who's a philosophy professor at UNLV, at the university, but he's incredibly jacked and I think he's 64 now. I think he just became the oldest person to climb a certain grade, like 5.14, which is like kind of an elite rock climbing grade. But I think he's maybe the oldest person to have done that now. But, he once told me this anecdote that

he was at some hotel pool, like, in middle America at some conference or something, and some kid asked if he could touch his abs because he'd never seen... He was like, "Are they real?" You know, like real, because he's like... - Because he's only seen action figures. - Yeah. Well, yeah, he's like a 48-year-old professor who's, like, shredded And some kid in the pool is like, "Can I touch those? Is that real?" You know, like I've never seen a thing like that. - It says a lot about him and about the state of our country

right now. - Yeah, exactly, middle America. - We are in this crisis of obesity, that's very serious. It goes beyond aesthetics. Yeah, I've thought about getting into climbing. The problem I had is I tried to just raw strength it. I just tried to pull up my way. - A lot of people do that. - And obviously that's foolish. And you gas out really fast. - Yeah, that's a very common thing for adults. I mean, especially men, especially somebody like you who's already fit, And so you try to bring the tool you already have to it,

and you're like, "No, you've got to drive with your legs, you can go technique, mobility." I like to say that anybody that tries climbing should think of it as climbing a really, really steep staircase, where it's like you're still walking up the stairs and you're using the handrail for balance - Mm-hmm. - but you're not pulling yourself up the handrail. - Mm-hmm. - And most of climbing is basically a steep staircase, you know? I mean, especially outdoors. In climbing gyms, it's a little bit different, Because the wall's actually vertical. But outdoors, the wall is almost

always a little bit less than vertical. So, it's like basically you're on a very, very steep and technical staircase, and then you're using the handrail, like the handholds to keep you- - Got it. - balanced on the wall. But your legs should always be driving you. - I still haven't done Half Dome and... Never? You've done Clouds Rest- - No. - a bunch and not Half Dome? - Done Clouds Rest a bunch of times, run Clouds Rest, rucked Clouds Rest, but Half Dome has those cables. - That's weird. - Yeah, yeah, I never was organized

enough To do the sign up early enough in the season. - No, but just do it after the permits. - Oh, you... - You know the cables stay up all year. So, when it's out of season, they take the uprights down, but the cables just sit there and you can do it any time. It's actually way better to do it post, like after the season, because there's no permitting, there are no people, and it's, like, super chill. - Okay, I definitely want to do it. - Yeah, just do it off season. - Yeah, because my

biggest concern- - It's way better. - is not that I'm going to fall, it's that someone above me is going to fall. I mean, there are a lot of... - Well, you're strong enough to just Glance them off, you know? Just, like, shrug them aside. - Possibly. I did hear about a... - Or ideally, stop them. Right? You know? - Yeah, ideally stop them. Yeah, I'd love to do it. I've been going to Yosemite since I was in my teens. I love it up there. I wouldn't say it's my second home, but it's heaven. I

mean, as you know- - Mm-hmm. - and actually one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you, among others, is that I would like more people to get into the national parks, and really enjoy them, because they're... We have so many gems in Yosemite, the High Country and Tuolumne Meadows, to me is like, is heaven on earth. - Mm-hmm. No, Yosemite, I mean, is a crown jewel. I think it's the best national park in the country. - Yeah, people forget it's only about a four-hour drive from the Bay Area or from Los Angeles. It's

pretty quick. You go through a bunch of- - Mm-hmm. different landscapes and then boom, suddenly you're there. - Yeah, and it's like paradise. It's incredible. - I'm curious about things in free soloing that, as a uninformed spectator, we think, oh, you know, that's the hardest part, that's the most difficult thing. But I imagine, inside of the sport, like that there are things that are very difficult and maybe even perilous that we're not aware of. Like what's some of the non-obvious aspects of free soloing- - Hmm. - if they exist? Because I always think, okay, you

know, if... I can imagine, oh, that's super tough, but that might be the easier or less tough. - Mm-hmm. Usually there are these kind of hidden... I don't want to call them hidden dangers, but hidden dangers in a sport. What are some things that the observer wouldn't be aware of? - Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what the hidden dangers are. I would say, though, that the obvious visual dangers, like, for a non-climber just watching free soloing- - Mm-hmm. - I think they generally misperceive all the dangers and risks involved. You know, they just

see it and they're like, "That's crazy. That's whatever." You know, and whatever they're bringing to it is probably not the actual case. Just because it's hard to visually tell what's challenging in climbing, you know? You're like, "That's a vertical wall!" But if it's, like, a nice crack going over a vertical wall, that's actually quite easy and secure climbing. But then some of the other stuff, you know, if there are really small holds, you're trusting your feet, I don't know, I mean, it's just really hard to judge that stuff visually. Like, you have to do it

to experience it. But I think that honestly the whole perception of risk around free soloing is maybe slightly misperceived by people. So with climbing in general, like if you go climbing with a rope, like if you're traditional climbing, like if you're climbing with a rope and gear and you're going to climb Half Dome, let's say, when you start climbing from the ground, you go some distance before you put your first piece of gear in, because that's just kind of the nature of climbing, You go for a ways and then you put in some gear, you

clip your rope into it, and then you're protected. And then for whatever distance you're going, you're essentially free soloing to that point. You know, like, there's always risk involved in climbing, because even if you have a rope on, depending how far you're going above your last piece of gear and, you know, what the terrain is like and whether or not the rock is good and all these other factors, you're more or less safe. And so I think people look at free soloing as this binary, like if you don't have a rope, that's dangerous. And you're

kind of like, "Well, any time you're climbing there are dangers, or there could be." And you're constantly evaluating those and trying to mitigate them. And so, I think that's the big misperception. Because easy free soloing is probably... If I'm somebody, you know, who's like an expert rock climber or whatever, I've been climbing 30 years, if I'm on an easy free solo, that's almost certainly safer than a very hard, certain types of hard climbing with a rope on. You know, and most of my scariest experiences as a climber actually have been with a rope on. Because

with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into unknown terrain, because you're kind of like, "Surely there'll be something good just around the corner." And so you keep going around the corner and you keep not getting into good gear, and you're like, "Holy s***, it's getting scarier and scarier" Are we allowed to curse? - Sure, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, good. Yeah, yeah. So you know, like... - Even at each other, if you want to curse at me. Yeah. - Yeah, perfect. But so a lot of my scariest experiences have been with a rope

on, because you're kind of like, "I'm sure it'll get better. I'm sure it'll get better," and it keeps getting worse and worse. - Mm-hmm. And then pretty soon, you're in some position where you're definitely going to die if you fall. But you never would have climbed into that position if you didn't have a rope on, because you're just so much more conservative when you're ropeless. And when you're ropeless, you're kind of like if something seems wrong, you just go down. You know, because you're just not going to push that far. - I saw the movie

"Meru." - Mm-hmm. - That was pretty intense. - I mean, that's an example of pushing really fricking far- - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - with a rope on. You know, it's like because you have a rope, You're willing to just keep pushing into the unknown. But then you wind up in a position where you're like, "This is pretty fricking extreme." You know, it's like... I mean, you saw the film. It's all totally insane. - Yeah, it is insane. And I feel like ice and snow bring a whole other dimension. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, I think that in

your sport, in free soloing, like the idea from the spectator side is, you know, like, "These guys, like one fall and they're dead." - Mm-hmm. - Right? - I've heard you say before that's actually not true. - I mean, yeah, it's kind of true in that... - I mean, you don't want to fall, but... - Yeah. Like yeah, it's true that at most places, if you fall off, you're going to die. But like, when I started free soloing as a kid, not that I like started and then only did that, but on my first free

solos when I was young, in the back of my mind, it would always be like, "If you slip, you'll die." You know, and the reality is that there are tons of places where your foot can slip and nothing else moves. You know, like your hands are locked on, you're holding on tight, And your foot slipped, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, my foot slipped," and then you keep climbing, and it's no big deal. I mean, there are also some places where if your foot slips, you're going to die for sure. And the key is

differentiating between those. But I think when I started, you know, it was like, "If anything happens, you'll die." And as you do it more, you're actually like, "No, I mean, a lot of things can happen and it'll be fine. You just have to make sure that the wrong thing doesn't happen at the wrong time." - I was surprised to hear you say that, yes, free soloists die, But oftentimes they die not free soloing. They die doing other things. I'm fascinated by this, not through a morbid fascination, but for a number of reasons. So, maybe you

could elaborate on that a little bit. - Yeah, there's a quote in the film "Free Solo," where a friend of mine, Tommy Caldwell, who's a very well-known climber, says something like, "All the people who were big free soloists are dead now." And it kind of implies like, you know, free soloing is dangerous and they all died soloing. But the reality is that basically none of them died soloing. Like, one or two soloists have died soloing. Though my preferred statistic is that no one has ever died doing something cutting edge. So, no one has ever died

pushing the envelope, like doing something extreme. There have been a couple free soloists who have died free soloing easy terrain, like just out doing something casual, and maybe a hold breaks or maybe something happens. Like, it's impossible to know what because they die. But then the bulk of other people who are sort of known for free soloing have died either in parachuting accidents, like wingsuiting or BASE jumping, or one got swept out to sea by a rogue wave. That's kind of a freak thing. One died in a car accident. You know, just like things like,

you know, it's basically just ways that people die. So, all that to say, it's not clear that free soloing is the most dangerous. - We have a friend who unfortunately is dead now, Ken Block, who was a famous rally car driver and with our photographer here at the podcast, Mike Blabac, and film crews with DC, he developed... He was one of the founders of DC, like DC Shoes- - Yeah. - DC Skateboarding, et cetera. Rally car. Unfortunately died in a snowmobiling accident. So, something very like kind of conventional for his daily life. He lived out

in Utah, and, you know, obviously a huge tragedy. And then you go look at kind of people who do, quote unquote "extreme sports," for lack of a better term. - Mm-hmm. - And you find that it's fairly common for people who are at the peak of a field, of a sport, to die doing something else that they really enjoy. And you kind of wonder like, are they pushing themselves or is it that they're just a little too relaxed? Because as you said, rarely do free soloists die like in the most difficult- - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. -

aspects of the climb. So, maybe it's that letting go of the mental engagement. Like, there's a change in the threshold of what they consider dangerous. So unless they need to be locked in- - Totally. - there's just some lack of attention to detail. This is my way of trying to save your life, basically- - Yeah, no, I appreciate that. - saying anything you're doing besides free soloing, be very, very careful, please. - Rein it in. - Yeah, we need you. - No, I mean, I also would suspect that all of the people that we're talking

about are all just a little... They're just bigger risk-takers in general. They're just more willing to do things like drive quickly and, you know, do whatever. Just more willing to take risk in their life, and I suppose sooner or later those things catch up with you, or they can. - Yeah. - Though that said, with free soloing, two of the world's best free soloists from the previous generations are still alive. You know, older men just living their best lives, doing their thing. - Still free soloing? - Yeah. Maybe not a super high level, maybe not

pushing themselves hard, but yeah, certainly could. So, a man named Peter Croft, he's a Canadian but has lived in the US forever. He was like my childhood hero growing up, and he's an incredible solo... Actually, there's a film with him, or a scene with him in the film, "Free Solo." He's kind of like a... They kind of frame him as a mentor figure, though honestly, he wasn't a mentor, because I was too afraid to ever even talk to him, because he was such a personal hero. But I mean, he's incredible. He's a super nice guy.

And so, we're both sponsored by The North Face now, so we're friends. We're on the same team, and so I've hung out with him at events and things. And I was having dinner with him once, and I was kind of like, "Oh, at what point did you, kind of, end the cutting-edge free soloing?" And he was like, "Oh, actually, I did a couple of my hardest solos, in terms of grades, not necessarily the most cutting-edge, but kind of the hardest grades, within the last several years." And I was like, "Really?" And he's still just kind

of doing stuff and fit, and he's psyched. And he's got to be... I don't know, I don't want to offend him, but he's got to be like mid-50s or maybe 60. - It's awesome. Yeah, and he's just still incredible. He's still climbing all the time. And even on his rest days, he goes down into the same climbing areas to hang out with his friends and chit-chat and like, take his dog to the cliff and stuff. So, I look at somebody like him, who's basically made an entire life of free soloing. I'm kind of like, if

you do it carefully, you make good decisions, I don't think it has to be sketchy. - How awesome is it that you're friends and coworkers with one of your childhood heroes? - Oh, it's the best. That was actually, I think, one of the best things about being a professional climber, is so many of the people that I looked up to as a kid now are friends and peers and things, and you're like, "Oh, it's so great." - It's wild, right? - Yeah, yeah. You get to hang out with your heroes, and you're like, "Not sure

I would have..." - You never would have imagined. - Yeah. No, it's amazing. - There's some young kid out there now, thinking the same. He's like, "I'm too afraid to go up to Alex and say hello." - They should just say hello. - Yeah. - I don't [unintelligible] - I mean, in the same way that I... - And some day you may be working together Right? - Yeah, totally. I mean, in the same way that I was so afraid to ever talk to Peter when I was young, and then ultimately, now he's just another nice

guy, and we're friends. We climb together. It's great. - Mm-hmm. - Sort of like, yeah, anybody should just say "Hi." You know, it's like if we're at the cliff, come chat. You know, it's like we're all doing the same thing. - I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink That also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for more than 13 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been

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mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get access to this high-quality meat today. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman. Do most climbers, as they're coming up, if they have aspirations to be great free soloists or other types of climbers, do they tend to work and do other things? Or is this like a, you're all in, it's a lifestyle, you live in a van? I mean, you can also do that after achieving Some degree of financial success. We know you've done that. We can talk about that. But is it the kind of thing where you have to give up other aspects of life in

order to get really good at it? - That's an interesting question. I'm not totally sure, because in some ways, it depends on what you mean by achieving success as a climber. Because if you're trying to climb the hardest grades or go to the Olympics or things like that, in some ways, you're almost better off being a university student or something, like having a structured schedule, that in some ways limits the amount that you can climb, because... I don't know enough about other sports, but I suspect this is akin to powerlifting or something, where it's like

if you're trying to be really, really strong, you only need to do a little bit every couple of days, and then recover. And so, for sort of elite physical training for climbing, you really only need, say, three or four hour sessions, four or five days a week. And then it's like, what do you do with the rest of your time? And so, you might as well have a job or... And so, a lot of my friends who write code for a living or do things like that are very, very strong climbers because of the schedule

that it allows, the structure. That said, I think if you want to be a great free soloist Or a big adventure climber, you're probably better off living in a van and just doing the thing nonstop, because for that, you're not trying to have that peak muscular performance. You're trying to just learn a skill and do something all the time. And so then, hours of practice, I think, matter more in a way. -Maybe we can talk a little bit about recovery, as long as we're talking about the number of hours that one puts in. I'm sure

your recovery looks different than it used to. But what do you do to recover between sessions? Are you a big believer in sauna, cold? Or is it just basically sleep? - No, I just... No, I push my three-year-old on the swings, you know? That's how I recover, is I like play with the kids on the swings. I mean, I try to eat relatively well. I try to sleep enough. I do all the basics for recovery. But no, I mean, I basically just survive in between. I was actually just joking with somebody that I think, as

a 24-year-old living by myself in a van I would have crazy days of climbing, and then on a rest day, I would like binge-watch an entire season of some show while eating an entire flat of Oreos, and just never even leave the bed of my van, and then the next day go out and do a speed record on something - Mm-hmm. - or just be like, "Ah, I'm so psyched." - Mm-hmm. - And now, I'm definitely not doing that now, or at least... No, I haven't done that in forever, because I just don't have the

time and don't have... Yeah, so I think now it takes a little more effort to recover, and it's just a little slower, probably. So, all this... - But it's hard to say, though, because a lot of that is just having kids and just having different- - Mm-hmm. - demands of time and life. - But it sounds like climbers are pretty grassroots in their training and techniques. Like, in a lot of other areas... - Yeah, I mean, I was living in a van. I was basically super low overhead, no team, no support. I'm just living in

a car doing the thing nonstop for a decade. And so, that's a pretty scrappy approach. And I think that in the years since then, climbing has professionalized a little bit. And there's a little more money. There's a little more support. And there's just a higher level of competition. I think it'd be harder to achieve things doing just that now. I think you'd have to have a little more of a plan. - Yeah, I can't help but sense that hyperbaric chambers and red light and massage guns and all that are going to be making their way

into the climbing culture. Okay. - Well, massage guns for sure are there. - Yeah, massage guns are there. - Yep. Yep. - I try to roll out every once in a while. - Even when I was living in my van- - Mm-hmm. - I would stretch and roll out- - Mm-hmm. - and do those types of things because you just kind of have to stay supple. - Yeah, how do you feel? How's your body feel? - Well, I mean, right now, I think pretty good. - Mm-hmm. - I don't know. Yeah, I live in Las

Vegas. When I'm at home, I try to see this body worker in town once a week, Pat. Sweet Pat. He's the man. And so, I think of that as kind of a basic, just taking care of... It's like an oil change. - Mm-hmm. - It's like making sure the engine runs smoothly. - Mm-hmm. - And I think as a result of body work like that, I haven't had any major overuse injuries in years. And so, that's pretty good for me. - Awesome. Yeah, maybe it's just because historically it was what I knew, but I'm seeing

so many parallels with skateboarding, where there was this time when no skateboarders lifted weights or did any kind of fitness. - Yeah, yeah, totally. - Then that started to happen. Actually, Danny Way, who jumped the Great Wall of China, he was kind of the first person in skateboarding to like... He would do neck training because he had broken his neck surfing in Newport. - Mm-hmm. And he was doing these, like where you swing the ball above your head. He was doing core work. And I remember back then thinking... I'd sort of left skateboarding at that

point. - Yeah, it was on the fringe. Mm-hmm. - And I was thinking- - You're like, "That's weird." - skateboarders are going to really have a problem with this, because it wasn't consistent with the culture. Now, there are a lot of guys who work out- - Totally. - and are taking care of their bodies. But there are still a lot of guys who absolutely kill it. They're incredible, and their energy drink is a beer. And their quote, unquote, "nootropic" is cigarettes, and they murder it. They're super good. And so, I like these sports where it's

like, you can't get around just investing a massive number of hours doing it, and then you can either take the kind of rock and roll track into it, or you can take the kind of self-care track. And sometimes people cross over, but- - Yeah. - you know, it works either way. It really does. - Climbing still has that exact same thing going on, Where you can kind of go either way. I do think, though, that the self-care track will obviously win out long term. I mean, that's the thing with climbing and being in the Olympics

and just the professionalism, all that. I mean, obviously, self-care is better for you long term. - Because, like, everybody knows that. - Mm-hmm. - That said, you still see a lot of very proficient climbers who, yeah, exactly, just kind of party, go hard. I mean, because so much of climbing just comes down to effort when you're doing the thing. Like, if you go climbing several days a week, and you try your absolute hardest every time you're climbing, You're going to get pretty freaking good, you know, whether you do red light therapy or any of the

weird other stuff or not. - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - So, it's like, I mean, it really just comes down to your effort doing the thing. - Mm-hmm. - And so, yeah, I mean, you could live... And I mean, a lot of climbers, especially in the past, lived on a diet of cigarettes and coffee and fricking beer. And you can get by that way. - Yeah, the 1970s-'80s approach. - It's not ideal. - It's not ideal. A friend of mine, Tom Bilyeu, he is very successful in business. He also has a podcast, and he was saying to

me the other day, he goes... Yeah, basically, when young people ask him how to get good at whatever, business or anything, he just tells them, "Work as if smartphones didn't exist." Meaning, when you're bored, go work on the thing. When you don't have anything... - Totally. Like, if you get rid... I'm not encouraging people- - Totally. - get rid of their smartphone, but I'm curious about your relationship to technology because I think nowadays- - Mm. - even though there are people training for the Olympics and whatnot, that it is very hard to disengage from pressures

of sponsors, pressures of just sheer communications, right? - Mm-hmm. - And if you're coming up, this idea that you always have to be in contact with people, it limits the total number of reps that you get physically, but also mentally. - Totally. - Because I imagine there was a lot of time sitting back in bed and thinking about climbing. - Mm-hmm. - Just like I used to sit back in bed and think about experiments when I was in graduate school. - Mm-hmm. - Now I'd probably... If that... If phones didn't exist... - Now that time

would be full of something. - I'd probably be on my phone. - Yeah. - I used to think about experiments And figures and what would this work, and that work. So, what are your thoughts on kind of a mental engagement separate from climbing? - No, I think that's definitely a big thing. I mean, I think... I've thought in the past that, in some ways, I feel kind of lucky that I came up when I did in climbing, where it's like sort of pre-smartphone, pre-social. You know, you just live in your car, and you do the

thing, and that's it, and that's your whole lifestyle. I mean, currently, I have all the social media accounts and things, but I don't have any of the apps on my phone. I have a friend that manages it for me. I send all the content to her, but she'd post stuff. And so, it's a nice way to sort of disconnect myself from scrolling aimlessly. I don't really have the time anymore anyway. You know, it's like I'd rather play with my kids than scroll. - Sure. - But no, I mean, that's tough. I mean, I think it'd

be hard to be a kid now growing up, like thinking that that's the norm, that you have to be connected, that you have to be capturing everything, documenting it, and then sharing it and posting it, and just all the stuff. I've always felt like the thing about being a professional climber is that you just have to be a good climber. Like, first and foremost, the key to being a professional climber is being able to climb really well. And the most important thing is doing the thing. And I just think when you get caught up in

all the posting, sharing, streaming, all the whatever, that's not doing the thing, you know? But it's easy to conflate them, and it's... I don't know. Yeah. No, I think it'd be really hard. - Yeah, I agree completely. And the hidden secret is that if you want something interesting to show on social media, the key is to not be on social media so you have something to bring to it. - Totally. It's just so hard to actually be good at something, and it's... - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - And this goes back to what we were just talking

about with free soloing and perceived risk and all that kind of stuff, is it is really easy to make something look rad, soloing-wise. Like, I could climb the outside of this building, and it would look insane. It would get tons of likes. People would think it's cool. But it's not cutting edge. It's not cool. It's not even hard. Like, it's not... It's whatever. But to actually do something that's cutting edge or newsworthy in climbing is pretty freaking hard. - Mm-hmm. - You know? And the challenge with social and with public, all that kind of stuff,

is that it's just so easy to... I don't want to say to fake it, because it's not like people are out there trying to be duplicitous or to trick you. But it's just you can get the same splash with none of the effort through social stuff, I think. You're like, "Oh, I just did something easy, and people thought it was amazing. Let's call that good." And you're like, "Well, that's just not good because it's easy." It's freaking... You know, it's not cutting edge. It's not rad. - I mean, you clearly go after big, big goals.

I mean, it's a giant goal. I think it really stands... And I know you've been told this many times before, so, if it embarrasses you in a positive way, then great. I mean, it stands as perhaps at least one of the most impressive Physical feats in history, because the risk consequence scenario there was you fall, you can potentially die. There may have been moments along the climb where... - Few brief moments, yeah. - Yeah, brief moments. - Where you're right above a ledge. - Right. - You're like, "Oh, wow." - Yeah. So, okay, and it's

so like you to point out those moments as opposed to all the other moments. It really speaks to your mindset. But I think that going after big things, I mean, building rockets to go to the moon. I remember when I was a kid, Danny Way decided to jump the Great Wall of China, to do it live. Someone had died trying it on a mountain bike. I remember thinking... I watched it on a little screen this big, and it was like I've known that guy since... We're out of touch now, for the most part, but since

I was 13, and he was always going after big things, jumping out of helicopters, jumping the Great Wall of China, you know. And then there are people who just push themselves. And so, what I wonder is, on a daily basis, when you climb, do you ever just climb for fun? When you climb, are you always working on something? And there's this famous scene in "Free Solo," More or less immediately after you got down from the climb, you're fingerboarding again, and you're training, and you're enjoying your routine which, by the way, is consistent with keeping the

dopamine flowing for process as opposed to the postpartum depression - Mm-hmm. - that many people experience after a big feat is completed. - Mm-hmm. - Selling a big company, et cetera. You avoid all that by doing exactly what you're doing. But then how quickly did your mind pivot to like, "Okay, what's next?" In the domain of climbing, because I realize you've had two children. - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - You've got other aspects of your life. But where's your mind in terms of where you want to take your life And your climbing? - Yeah. On the one

hand, I set big goals, I guess, something like El Cap. But the thing is, I would actually say that's more the outgrowth of setting consistent little goals like all the time. I basically always have a running to-do list of, "What am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing today? What am I trying to do this week?" And that extends to climbing as well, with what are all the little things I can be doing? What are the little things I can tick this week? You know, I have my climbing journal that goes back to 2005 or

2006 or something. So, basically, everything I've ever climbed is logged with difficulty And times and whatever. And so, I'm constantly trying to tick things as a climber, just like to do new climbs that I haven't done before. And so, I mean, I think actually, my day of climbing yesterday could be a good example of this. So, yesterday, my wife and I dropped off our older daughter at school, went to the cliff, did a day of sport climbing, and then picked up our daughter on the way home. It's like a perfect day like that, where you

can kind of make it all work. And I'm not going to be able to go to that cliff very often this season just because of travel and work, and life, basically. So, I don't want to have any big project there, Because I just won't have time to do it. You know, I'm trying to set my goals appropriately, where I'm like, "Oh, there's no point in trying to do something that would take me a month or two to achieve if I only have three days." And so, I had a goal for that day of trying to

do this very particular little combination of routes that I hadn't done before. It's just something new, something interesting. It's not that hard. But then we got there, and it was like the worst condition. It was like 86 degrees when we parked the car. And so, it's like you're trying to work out in horrendously hot. And it was also that kind of monsoony, so it was very humid. So, we got to the wall, and it's disgusting. And I was kind of like, "Well, you know, it's a training day." Like, whatever. And so, I tried to do

this new combination of routes. Ultimately I failed on it. I fell at the very freaking top of the wall. I was so maxxed and didn't do it. I'll probably get a chance to go back on Monday and I'll for sure do it then. But you know, it's like a very small goal. Like, this isn't cutting edge, like big. This isn't even cool at all. Like, my friends won't even care. Like, they'll think it's stupid. But it's nice for me to have a reason to try my hardest for that particular day of climbing. And I think

that the big goals come as a result of all those little things. Like, if day-by-day, you're constantly doing something that's a little bit new, a little bit different, a little bit harder, you know, whatever seems like the appropriate challenge for that day, I think that looking back at 20 years of climbing outside non-stop, that the big things have just come as a natural outgrowth of all those little things. You do enough little things all the time, and then every once in a while, something big happens. And so, I don't know. You know, but I have

to-do lists going back years of like goals and all these aspirations. And some years, I only do half of them. Some years, I do a third of them. And then, something like free soloing El Cap sat on a list like that Literally for years, and it kept floating to the next year, to the next year. Because you get into Yosemite, and you look at the wall, and you're like, "No, that's not..." You're like, "It's totally out of the question." And so, you just punt to the next year. And so, yeah, I mean, sometimes the goals

don't happen, sometimes they do. But you kind of just have to let it play out. It's more like the day-to-day little challenges. - I love how matter-of-fact you are about it. You are wired different. - You think? I mean... - Well, maybe not. I mean, because... And this is a vastly less high-risk, high-consequence endeavor, but public speaking doesn't make me... It doesn't raise my level of cortisol or autonomic arousal at all, Because I've done so much of it, right? - Yeah, because you're super well-practiced, yeah. - Yeah, I mean, just... Yeah. So, sometimes I'll think

like, "Oh, I'm a little more keyed up than I want to be," and I know how to calm myself down. - Totally. Well, I'm actually... - I feel the same way with- - Yeah? - public speaking now, but that's after years of practice- - Mm-hmm. - because it used to be so stressful for me. Like, so... - Oh, yeah? - Yeah. No, I was so shy. - Proof that your amygdala does work like everybody else's. Yeah. - But totally. - No, I mean, exactly. That's why I hate all this stuff. It's like, "Oh, you're just

wired differently." Because I'm like, no. I know that, you know, yeah, public... Like, speaking in front of a class in school was mortifying. But now, after years of doing keynote speeches to giant groups, I'm sort of like, no- - Mm-hmm. - now it's super chill. - Mm-hmm. - But you know, that's all learned. - Yeah. Forgive me for saying you're wired different. I think that when you did "Free Solo," there were a number of news programs that took advantage of the fact that they put you in a brain scanner- - Mm-hmm. - you know, this

is my field the neuroscience, you know, his amygdala might not be activated The same way as other people's. But I would have thought, and I think it's the case now you confirmed, that it's really domain-specific. Like, you've done so much climbing, you have so many reps there, that you're familiar with the contingencies. And so, it's not that you can't experience fear, it's that you're not placing yourself into truly fearful circumstances, climbing. But the fact that public speaking was an issue means that your threat sensors and the amygdala and related circuits work perfectly fine. - With

that particular scanning in the fMRI, they show you a bunch of black and white pictures, and it's like, whether or not that triggers the fear response. And I was like, "Well, obviously, looking at pictures isn't going to trigger my fear response." But I'm like, "Had they thrown a snake into the fMRI with me, that would have triggered my fear response." - Mm-hmm. - You know, if there were, like, giant spiders, crawling over me, that probably would too. And so, I was like, "No, obviously, I feel fear. I'm just not afraid of black and white photos,

you know?" - Right. - I was like... - That's what they used? - Yeah. It was... - Oh, like, angry faces and that kind of... The faces? - It wasn't even faces. It was random stuff, like, I don't know, a gun and then a light socket. - Okay. Yeah. - You know, some things that are neutral, some things that are whatever. - Yeah. I should have designed the experiment. My lab used to work on fear. - Well, I think it was a standardized thing, I think. I think it was some battery, - Yeah. No, it's

a... - then they gave us the... Yeah. I'm not trying to be disparaging of the research. My lab used to work on fear. - Yeah. - We used VR. That's how I met Michael Muller, Our friend in common. - Mm-hmm. - He took me down to Guadalupe. - Yeah. We did two times... So, we went down there in 2016 and 2017, doing cage exit diving with great whites, filming to get the VR. And I'll tell you, in real life, it's a hell of a lot scarier than it is... - Yeah, totally, than in VR. -

But along the lines of dying when you're doing the other thing, not the main thing, the cage exit part ended up being a lot safer. I had an air failure while in the cage. I was on that hookah line, and I was alone in the cage when it happened. And I'll tell you, that was a lot more terrifying than being out of the cage with the sharks because when you're out of the cage, You're on scuba, and you have some degree of control over... You can shoot for the surface. When you're in the cage- -

Mm-hmm. - and you run out of air, and you're alone- - Yeah, you're just caged underwater. - you're just terrified- - Yeah. - and you're hosed. No pun intended. - Yeah. - You're not hosed enough. - You're unhosed, yeah, yeah. - So, you know, it speaks to this thing that, when there's this big, scary thing and you're really locked in, you often miss the more trivial-seeming- - Hmm. - but real danger that's close up. - But this is, I think, one of the real values of climbing is I think that as a climber, you spend

all your time thinking about risk and managing risk and mitigating risk and all those kinds of things. And so, I think that... I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but I do feel good at evaluating risks like that, you know. Like, what is the actual dangerous thing? What's sketchy about this situation? And it just often isn't the thing that people are looking at, you know? - Mm-hmm. - And that's what I was talking about earlier with people watching videos of free soloing or whatever else. They're like, "That's sketchy." And I'm like, "Well,

you know, might be in some ways, But probably not for all the reasons that you're thinking." You know what I mean? Like, the obvious visual thing is probably not the big challenge. - And it sounds a little cliché, but you're doing what you love, you know. It's interesting. I think one of the biggest risks that I think about now, as I get older, is the non-daily lethal risk of grinding it out in a job you don't like, and then, one day, you wake up and you're like, "Wow, there's no time machine. Like, I can't go

back and get that- - Yeah. - vitality and that time." - Like, what should I have been doing? - Yeah. And that's where I think this idea of doing what you love really counts, Whether or not you have to live in a van and do nothing else, or whether or not you can also go to school, but doing something that you love very, very much. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. Either way, you're going to die. - Either way you're going to die. - And you may as well die having done a lot of things you're really excited

about, than die regretting all the things you didn't do. - Totally. - I mean, I think that that actually, that exact mindset really helped inform my whole climbing journey in a way, is like, my father died when I was 19. And he died of a heart attack unexpectedly, just a freak thing, running through an airport, at age 55. And you know, and I think for a teenager, that makes an impression, where you're sort of like, "Oh, this could end at any moment." And actually, both my grandfathers had just died at roughly the same time. So,

I think for an impressionable teen, you're sort of like, "Oh, everybody dies." Like, do you get to do all the things that you want to do before you go? And I think my father... My father was a community college professor, taught language, and he ostensibly lived a risk-free life, relatively sedentary. I mean, he traveled widely. Like, he was great. But by any risk perception thing, you'd be like, "Oh, he's a professor. Like, he's fine." And yet he still died young and probably would've preferred to do a lot of other things before he went. I'm sort

of like, you know, it's just a reminder that you got to do all those things. - Yeah, I want to talk to you about your philosophy on death and time, and kind of life arc. And you've already started. So, thank you for that. Because I would say most of my friends who started families young are people who... These are male friends whose dads died young. And so, they had this very keen sense of the finite duration of life. And, you know, Steve Jobs talked about this. So, you're very... And he died young. He seemed to

have some sense of how long he was going to live, and really wanted to pack things in. And I don't know why that was. He was adopted, so I don't know if he even knew how long his parents lived, etcetera. But barring accident or injury- - Mm-hmm. we don't really know when we're going to die. - Mm-hmm. - But sometimes I think we get the sense based on relatives. And I can remember a time in my life when I... Of course, I knew I was going to die, but I lived in a way that I

just felt like I had all the time in the world, - Mm-hmm. - despite pursuing things. And I think with each passing year, I'm like, "Oh, wow, like, the wall's coming." - You're like, "It's winding down.". Yeah, like, "We got to get- - Yeah. - the show on the road." - Totally, totally. - And I've done things I wanted to do, but it's interesting that, you know, it does seem that having a parent die has a profound impact on where you set that horizon. - Yeah, galvanizing effect for sure. - You realize, like, today is

part of an arc that has an endpoint. - Yeah. - And we know that, but we often don't live into that realization. - Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I mean, you say we know that, but I actually think that we don't talk about that enough. You know what I mean? I think most people live with a little too much open ended. Because nobody wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about the consequences of like... Because people think this is morbid, or it's just not... But the thing is like, we're all going

to freaking die. You know? It's like, are we going to be proud of what we did before we died? Like, I don't know. I mean, yeah. We'll see. It's kind of cliché to be like, "Oh, better to die young and burn brightly," and all that kind of stuff. But to some extent, I think there's a middle ground where you're like, it's better to try hard and do things that you're proud of. And either way, you're going to die. - I agree. I mean, I think there is something interesting to this 27 effect. So many rock

and roll musicians die at 27. - Hmm. It's their quarter-life crisis. - Yeah. Quarter-life crisis. I haven't heard of the quarter-life crisis. - You never heard of quarter-life... Like, all my friends have gone- - No. - through a quarter-life crisis. - Oh, really? - Yeah. Kind of. - And when does that happen? - Well, like 25 or 27, whatever. - Interesting. No, I was just so focused on becoming a neuroscientist that I didn't know what else I would do besides that at 25. I think I was just so locked in. But I've always been a

little bit obsessive. Have you always been a little bit like, whatever you're into, you're into? I guess it's been climbing. - Yeah. Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. I was just lucky to get into climbing when I was 10. So, this is something that I've just been into forever. - So, did you play LEGOs as a kid or anything? - Yeah, and I was psycho about my LEGOs. - You were psycho about LEGOs. - Yeah, yeah. Psycho. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, I didn't have a bed in my room because I had LEGOs covered across the

whole floor, basically. I slept in a corner, and I just had LEGOs all over. - Awesome. - It was kind of psycho. Do you see some of this in your kids? Not quite that yet, but they're pretty young, so it's hard to tell. - Mm-hmm. - But yeah, we'll see. We'll see. - Mm-hmm. - I kind of think it's all about having personality. Like, do a thing, do it well. Like, get excited about things. I mean, there are just so many people on earth, and they all do different things. Like, you might as well be

the person to do that one particular thing and just really do it. - No, I agree. That's the juice. I mean, I think for some of us, I just know from my own life experience, I thought I was certainly going to just get into skateboarding. Many of my friends became professional skateboarders, got really good at it, or worked in the industry. And early on, I was getting hurt, and I realized, "I'm not very good at this." And then when I finally plugged into academics and learning, I was like, "This is the thing." And I loved

it. - Hmm. - And then eventually, I pivoted to this thing, which I didn't anticipate. But I do think that going all in on something, - Mm-hmm. - it provides a really wonderful feedback loop that one can... Like, it makes you feel alive to progress. - Yeah, you're doing a thing. You're psyched. Yeah, yeah. - Especially when it's hard. - Yeah. - Especially when it's hard. - I've literally spent my whole life basically, all in on climbing, and I'm still... I just love going rock climbing, you know? It's like, I mean, I think that's really

the goal of parenting, is to help your kid find something that they're that psyched about, like something that they can commit to, and something that will drive them, something they're passionate about. And so, I mean, we'll see with our kids, but it's like, the idea is just to let them experience enough things that they can find whatever they... whatever gets them out of bed every day. - They certainly are in the right environment to flourish with it. You mentioned that climbing is in the Olympics. I could see, and I've observed in other sports where the

parents are kind of more obsessive than the kid, and then the kid burns out on it. - Mm-hmm. - I read Andre Agassi's book, "Open," - Yeah. Yeah, that's like the... - which is basically a story of his dad pushing him to play a game he did not want to play. - Yeah. That may be the best sports memoir ever. - Mm-hmm. - That's a great book. - Yeah. Great book. Yeah, his dad was a boxer and basically trained him- - Yeah. The psycho, yeah. - in tennis like a boxer. - Yeah. - Yeah, so

it's sort of like the light-handed approach of like... I think kids know. I mean, you kind of let them forage, right? - Yeah. No, we're taking the light-handed approach for sure. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, our kids will obviously know how to climb, because that's what we do all the time and... - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - But so far, we just go hiking. Like, we haven't forced them to climb. We have a little bit of a home gym at home, like a little climbing garage. And so the girls can play on the wall whenever they want

to. But there's certainly never any pressure to do anything. - I read, and please correct me if this is inaccurate, but that it was during college that you had some family members pass away, And when you really leaned into just climbing more. I think it's somewhere on the internet that you were climbing out in Indian Rock, which is interesting to me- - Mm-hmm. - because I went to graduate school in Berkeley and lived in Berkeley for a long time. - You went to Cal? - I went to Cal for my master's. - Oh, yeah. Okay.

- And then, I lived in Berkeley even when I was a postdoc at Stanford. I love Berkeley. - I was like, "You went from Cal to Stanford?" Are you even allowed to do that? - Yeah. Right. Yeah, the enemy, the enemy. - Yeah, it's like did they take you? - Yeah. Born at Stanford, Trained at Stanford, and still spent a lot of time in Berkeley. - Wow. Wow. - I liked the culture in Berkeley then, and I liked the food. - So, I used to take pizzas from - Mm-hmm. - The Cheeseboard up to Indian

Rock. - Hmm. - And so while you were climbing Indian Rock - Yeah. - I was eating and picnicking on Indian Rock. It's amazing. So, would you just pull little solo journeys out there? This is, by the way, folks, a big steep rock, but on one face it's gradual. It literally has like rock couches where couples go on dates, and you eat some pizza- - Yeah. And hang out, and get an amazing view. - And beautiful view overlooking the city. - Yeah. So, you were climbing up- - Yeah. - the back of it, which is

anything but... - Well, actually, I was mostly traversing the bottom of it. There's tons of like... Basically, you can contour the whole base of the rock. And so, you can climb for a couple of hundred feet basically, without touching the ground. So, you just go back and forth doing laps and, yeah. - Really cool. - I mean, from where I was living at Berkeley, there's only, I don't know, like a 30-minute walk to Indian Rock or something. - Mm-hmm. - So, I basically wasn't going to class. I was just strolling to Indian Rock and traversing

the wall back and forth. And then, that's why I dropped out after one year at Berkeley. - Mm-hmm. - It's just kind of like I don't know why I'm at university if I'm not actually... Actually, it's more complicated than that, because that year, I got into the Youth Worlds, just like an international thing. And so, I was going to take the semester off to go to Worlds and travel and climb a little bit. And so, now I've just taken whatever, like 35 semesters off or something. - You're on leave of absence still? - Yeah. Yeah,

exactly. No, I think after some point they were like, "You're done." - They closed the hatch. - Yeah. Yeah, I think they closed that. - Well, it worked out. It certainly worked out. Yeah, the thing that we find ourselves doing when we should be doing something else, in the positive sense of it, like, I mean, that often is the thing that you obsess over. Right. - Yeah. I mean, it's just hard to know with that stuff, though, because obviously, for most people, they probably should get an education and get a job of some kind. Like,

even if you're a really passionate climber, I mean, most people probably aren't going to make a living as a professional climber because it's just too small an industry, and you know, it depends on your level and everything. I mean, I think I got kind of lucky. I mean, in a lot of ways, I got lucky, also just because I like soloing, and it's like such a niche and not that many people do it, and the level just wasn't that high. And so, I sometimes joke, it's easy to be the best if you're the only one

doing it. You know, it's like, it's easy to compete as the only person in the field, and you're kind of like, "Well, that makes it chill." And so, you know, I think I got lucky in a lot of ways like that. And so, yeah, most people probably should finish university and climb, as they can. That said, I mean, if you love doing a thing, it makes sense to maybe build your life around how you can do that thing As much as possible, just because it keeps you energized and fired up and makes the rest of

your life better. - Mm-hmm. - I think it was Ryan Holiday that said that, "If you don't know what to do with your life and you're still trying to figure it out, definitely stay in college." Because you know, there are all these tales of like Mark Zuckerberg leaving Harvard, and Steve Jobs dropping out of Reed College, and Alex Honnold leaving Berkeley, and eventually becoming the person that you are now. But you had a direction. There was another thing to lean into. It wasn't just- - Mm-hmm. "Oh, I don't like this. I don't want to be

here." - Yeah. I mean, if you have nothing, then you drop out, and you just go play video games in your basement or something, like that's obviously not better than going to school. Like, you're better off going to school and broadening your horizons and doing whatever. But yeah, I mean, I thought I was just taking some time off, and I thought that eventually I'd become a mountain guide or something, or like teach at summer camps, or I don't know, because especially at the time, the climbing industry was so much smaller, there wasn't any money. Like,

I didn't think you could make a living as a professional climber. And so, I thought it was just kind of a fun thing I was doing in the van for a while before I'd find some kind of job or something. And then thankfully, the climbing industry has kind of scaled at the same rate that I did as a climber. And so, it all worked out. - Is it the case that you didn't have any monetary aspirations when you were doing it? Like, it sounds like you didn't, but did you ever have the conversation with your

mom, like, you know, "How are you going to make a living?" Or... - No. Well, so I mean, I mentioned that my dad died. So, my parents had just gotten divorced, And my dad had left enough for my sister and me to finish college. And so, I took that money and put it in bonds, which I don't know what that is, but you know. So, I was making like a couple of hundred bucks a month in bonds. And then, I stole the family minivan. Like I said, my two grandfathers had died before, so I basically...

My mom had inherited this little car that... So, she was driving my grandpa's car. I took the family minivan. I was making a couple of hundred bucks in bonds, and basically, that just kind of covered any of the pressure, like the financial pressure, whereas that gave me enough of a buffer that I was like, "Well, for several years at least, I could just kind of live in this minivan And see what happens." And then after a couple years, I was sponsored, I was getting free product. I was getting like a very, very small amount of

money, but some amount of money, which is enough to sort of justify the whole thing, where you're like, "Oh, companies are paying me to do this thing. I should see how well I can do it." And then, it all kind of took off from there. But yeah, I mean, that's one of the ways in which I was very lucky as a climber, you know. There was just enough financial cushion that I could try to do the thing as much as I wanted for a couple of years And see how it played out, and it just

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like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. It's going to sound like an odd question, but I'm very curious about this. You've been in beautiful places. And you get a very different view of those places than most people. There's a really great YouTube Short of you hanging on by one arm during a climb, which itself is impressive to the observer. But then you take some moments, and you

look around, and you're just checking out the scene. - Mm. - You're clearly not looking at the rock. That I know even as a non-expert. - Mm. Yeah. - And so, I'm wondering this. I have reasons to ask. Do you ever snap photos with your mind, your mind's eye? Like, do you have like, a clear recollection of like, "Oh, I'm going to snap a shot of this"? "Like, keep this one in the memory bank?" - No, I can't remember. - No? - I mean, to me it's more the living there day in and day out.

Like, with free soloing El Cap, - Mm-hmm. - let's say, I mean, I spent months on the wall and it's like just every day, you know, you're going up before sunrise a lot of the time, so you're watching the sunrise over Half Dome, and it's like, super beautiful. And then you're going down at sunset and you're watching the moon, and it's just day in and day out. It's the most beautiful place on earth in all these amazing conditions. You know, sometimes it starts snowing, sometimes it's raining. It's like there are clouds swirling and mist or

whatever, and you're just like, "Oh, it's amazing." But I don't really remember any specific like a snapshot of that. It's more just the overall, you're like, "Oh, it's just this amazing place." - It's a pretty awesome existence. - Yeah, like the freakin'... What is it? With Yosemite Falls, the... Have you ever seen the moon rainbow thing? - The firelight thing, where- - No, the Firefall is a different thing. That's like, with the moon in... That's a different time of year. In May or June, if you get a full moon... Oh, the moonbow. That's what it

is. It's like when Yosemite Falls - The moonbow. - will cast a moonbow. Like, you'll be able to see a rainbow from the moonlight in the waterfall when it's at peak water. It's totally insane. My wife and I went for a romantic walk to go look at the moonbow one season because you're just there and you're like, "That's pretty cool." You know, it's like it's a rainbow at night. - Amazing. - It's really cool. We're going to send a lot of people to Yosemite by virtue of Clouds Rest And for the non-climbers or hikers. -

I still think it's crazy that you've climbed Clouds Rest more than once and never climbed Half Dome. Because Clouds Rest, like- - No, I've run Clouds Rest, rucked it, I've done it... I've probably done Clouds Rest at least a dozen times. - That is crazy. - And I love that hike. - Because you have to go past Half Dome, and Half Dome is the much more famous cousin that's closer and easier and kind of more spectacular. - Well, you have to drive past it. So, to be clear, I'm starting from sunrise. - Oh, you've been

doing it... Oh, you're going from Tuolumne. - I'm going from Tuolumne. - Oh, I'm way less impressed. - Oh, okay, good, okay, good. - Oh, I thought you were coming from the valley floor. - All right, good, because I was thinking to myself, like... I was like, Clouds Rest is like 15 miles up and back. It's like, it's not gnarly. - No, but going from the valley floor is really hard. - Going from the valley floor, sorry. - No gain. - I actually don't know many people who come up from the valley floor anymore. -

I've only done it from the valley floor. - People tend to start at sunrise and then go down Clouds Rest, kind of go down the spine a bit toward Half Dome and then, I know this because then recently- - Yeah, there are trails between them and it's not easy. - Yeah, yeah. - That's so funny because you were - Yeah, yeah. - talking about rucking a heavy bag up there and I was like, "Man, that is a hard walk from the valley floor." - No, no, no, no. - Because I'm thinking of everything from the

valley floor because I spent so much time in Yosemite. Like, in the valley. - I'm starting at about 8,000 feet, finishing at about 10,000 feet. - Yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm so much less impressed. - Yeah, yeah. Your daughters do this. You know, like your- - Yeah. Well, not quite yet, but- - Your three and a half year old daughter. That's what I was saying. I was like, "Wow, he's right." Okay. I mean, it's tough. I mean, 2,000- - Yeah. No, no, it's still tough. - But, I mean, it's like a

workout. - But going from the valley floor is really tough. - Yeah, that's brutal. - Because I had one season in Yosemite where, for whatever reason, I wasn't really motivated for climbing goals, and I called it. I had said that I retired and I was on a trail running season. Though it's funny because I actually... I supported a bunch of my friends on things, and I was bouldering with all my friends. And so, I said that I have a climbing journal. And so by the end of the season, if you looked through the journal, it

would look like a normal season where, like, almost every day I was climbing with somebody, I was doing something. And then by the end of the season, I actually did a couple of things that I was kind of proud of. But the mindset going into it was like, "I don't care. I'm just here having fun. I'm trail running and I'm supporting my friends on things, and that's it." And one of my big things that season was that I ran Clouds Rest from the valley floor. But to me, that was like a triumph of trail running

because that's like, a pretty big... It was like really- - Yeah, how long is that? - I don't know. It's like 5,000 feet or 6,000... I don't know. - Mm-hmm. - It's like, so far. - Yeah. Let's see, because- - It was like the hardest thing I'd ever run, for sure. - Yeah, you're probably going at least 3-4,000 feet from the valley floor up to the meadows and then another 2,000 up to Clouds Rest. - Well, no, the valley floor is four and the top of Clouds Rest is 10 something. - It's about 10. -

So you're doing six, yeah. - Yeah. - So it's like- - Okay. - For me, I was like, "Oh, that's a lot." - That's a trail run. - But anyway. Yeah. - And you're carrying water, or you grab water along the way. - Yeah, I just had like, a little bottle, and I fill it in the rivers or something. - Yeah. Yeah, I don't consider myself a serious trail runner or mountaineer, certainly, but ever since I got my driver's license, it was like Yosemite. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's the best. - And Glacier is amazing. And

I swear I'm not sent here by the National Parks Service, but I think Glacier's got some incredible scenery that everyone should make it to. Have you done a lot of Climbing in Glacier? - No. Actually, I don't think there is that much climbing in Glacier National Park. But I've actually biked past it on the way to Alaska for this like, - Just biking, yeah. - random journey I did. - Yeah. - Yeah. But, no, I haven't done much in there. - What are the cultural differences in climbing in the United States versus in Europe? It

seems like guys get in the... Training in the Alps. I keep saying "guys," but I want to be fair. - People. - Not for politically... people. - Anybody. - I'm not saying this for politically correct reasons, but there's a movie out very soon, actually. - Mm-hmm. - An IMAX movie. I saw the trailer, too. - Yeah. - It's a friend of yours. - A woman who's... What'd she climb? - Yeah. She's climbed El Cap. Yeah, she's climbed El Cap in a day. - Uh-huh. - Like, free in a day, this route is called Golden Gate.

Yeah, actually, surprisingly, I'm in that film much more than I thought because I supported her on each of her attempts. We're talking about Emily Harrington, who's also a professional climber, Who freed this route called Golden Gate in a day. And the film's called "Girl Climber." And I think it comes out- - The 24th. - Yeah. Isn't that, like, soon? Yeah. - Soon. It's one day in an IMAX, but then presumably it will be released. - And then some kind of theatrical release. - Okay. - But I think it'll be a relatively small theatrical release and

then eventually stream and whatever. But anyway, this film, "Girl Climber," yeah, it's funny because she worked on this goal for a long time and I'd kind of forgotten that I basically supported her on each of her attempts. Because when you support somebody... I mean, this is kind of like crewing somebody's race or something. You know, when you support somebody, it's basically a rest day for you. You're like, having a nice day. You're supporting a friend. It's like no pressure. It's all really chill. And so the days that I supported her were all like... You know,

I remember them, but they were just one day throughout a big season where I'd be working on other climbing goals, like all the things that I'm working on. And it's just like a fun day supporting a friend. But then I went and watched the movie, and it's like, "Oh, every time she tries the wall," and I'm like, "They're supporting her." And I was like, "Oh God, I kind of forgot about all these things a couple years ago." And I don't know. - That's awesome. - Yeah, it's funny seeing the film. It's really inspiring. - Is

the route that she took particularly difficult? What is the milestone that she - Yeah, it's like... - achieves there? - She was the first woman to do that route in a day, free in a day. That route's like a harder version of the Free Rider, the thing that I free soloed in the film "Free Solo." But yeah, honestly, I think the film does a good job of not trying to portray it as anything more than it is. I mean, it's a very difficult climbing achievement, but it's not like... It's not the hardest thing ever done.

It's not the first time that, you know? But it's very hard. And if you watch the film, you see what makes it meaningful is the level of effort that she puts into it. It's like, it's hard for her. She's a great climber and she puts a lot into it, a lot of herself into it. And eventually, I don't want to spoil it, but eventually she overcomes it and manages to do this thing that's really hard for her. And I think that's... which in a lot of ways, is climbing in a nutshell. It's like none of

it really matters because even free soloing El Cap, you can walk around the back. It's like, why put the years of effort into climbing the face when you can walk around the back? Like, all of climbing is relatively meaningless. And so ultimately, it's the effort that we put into it that has value. And so I think that's what the film "Girl Climber" does a really good job of, is that you're sort of like, "Oh, wow." Like, she puts a lot into it and then, and therefore, gets a lot out of it for herself. - Awesome.

And I haven't seen it yet, but clearly for the observer too. I find it amazing that humans love to see other humans accomplish great feats, you know? - Well, I think they love to see the effort. I mean, the accomplishment, of course, But it's like, you love seeing somebody - Mm-hmm. - work really hard at something, try really hard, face their fears, overcome, and then ideally achieve something. But I think it's the effort that's so inspiring. Like, I mean, at least personally, I love to see other people try that hard because it's a reminder that

I can try that hard if I want to. - Yeah. No, I completely agree. I had made this little list before we started and was trying to just let my unconscious mind guide it more than really scripting it out carefully. And it says Evel Knievel because when I was growing up, like, everything was Evel Knievel. Turned out there were many of them. It's a whole family. - Oh, yeah? - Yeah, a bunch of Evel Knievels. - The Knievels? - The Knievels, yeah. - Huh. - And jumping whatever, - Mm-hmm. - 50, maybe not 50 length

to length, but semi-trucks, and I think there's the element of danger. It's super impressive. Danny Way growing up, because I knew that kid who's now a full-grown man doing all sorts of crazy stuff to the point where he was starting to go after things that for skateboards just felt a little bit kind of outside the box, like land speed records And things like that. - Mm-hmm. - You know, jumping out of helicopters and certainly bungee-jumping the Great Wall of China, just engineering it from scratch, was super impressive. - Mm-hmm. And then I've got you here

and then Hunter Thompson, like the guy who was just - Mm-hmm. - all about how many drug experiences he could have. And then at his funeral was actually... - Mm-hmm. - He loved the town of Aspen. He had his ashes exploded over the town of Aspen in a firework show. So that's like going out of the way, the way you lived, you know? - That's fitting. - Right. So I think you're absolutely right, however, that we love to touch into the amount of effort and training that's required. I mean, that's the Rocky movies. That's pretty

much everything. - Mm-hmm. - And that's really where the work is. Like that should be the inspiring part. - Mm-hmm. - Right? Because that's the part that one can adopt. - I mean, the Rocky training montage, that's the best part of the movie. I mean, in a lot of those films, the best part is the training montage where it's like, cuts to the person working really, - Yeah. - really hard for a long time getting swole. And then you get to the - Mm-hmm. - actual them doing the thing. And them doing the thing is

cool, but it's like, them getting ready to do the thing is often the part that you're like, "That's so awesome. I'm all fired up." - Totally. It's the chasing chickens and all the weird stuff. Speaking of which for the non-climber, what would be the strangest aspect of your training? Do you train your feet? Do you train your hands in ways that are- - No feet, but it's probably the dangling from your fingertips that I think a non-climber would... - Mm-hmm. - I mean, also I think that's the type of thing that a non-climber just can't

even interface with. Like, they just can't hang from an edge, you know? - Mm-hmm. - It's like from a small... It's like the training-your-fingertip type of stuff. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah, man, I think the... Though now there have been so many mainstream climbing things that I think people have a sense that that's what it is. You like, dangle on tiny edges and do pull-ups and all that kind of stuff. - Well, I think I follow an Instagram account that's actually informative. He's a former army guy who's a rock climber. And so it's mainly focused on

pull-ups And things like that and, touching into how you, if you change the speed of the initial one-arm pull-up, like, I learned to blast through the bar and above the - Hmm. - bar and let go and then catch it again, - Hmm. - generate a completely different sort of motor neuron adaptation response than, - Mm-hmm. - like, just doing a bunch of pull-ups or - Mm-hmm. - slow one-arm pull-ups. Like, the ability to be ballistic, but then also, like, the eccentric catch yourself and lower. - Mm-hmm. - And it seems to have a lot

of parallels with climbing. Maybe I should just go on a wall and climb, it sounds like. So, I imagine if you're bouldering, you end up doing all this stuff in the process of bouldering. - Yeah. Actually, I was immediately like, "So should I be going faster when I do pull-ups?" Because I've been doing one-arms at the end of a session, but my one-arms are pretty slow, you know? You just grab the bar and you just like, struggle until you do a- - Well, I mean, he talks about a lot of people can do a lot

of pull-ups in full range, slow, concentric, and eccentric, but that they rarely ever get to muscle-ups or to one-arm pull-ups at the kind of level that - Mm-hmm. - he's pulling a ton of weight because there are a number Of things that he suggests. We can link to this account. There's some training of forearms and brachialis and hands that's required. But he said, you know, that not being able to generate enough force at the beginning is a reason - Mm. - a lot of people don't get to the muscle-up. Because with the muscle-up, there's a

little bit of a kip involved, - Mm-hmm. - at least when one's first learning it. - Mm-hmm. - And so people are used to kind of dragging themselves in low gear out of the bottom. - Mm-hmm. - It's going to be a long while before they have the strength to do a muscle-up. Whereas if you can blast yourself out of the bottom, you sort of end up almost above the bar at some point. - Totally. - Yeah. - I actually just started doing muscle-ups again, like, a couple months ago in my little home gym. And

I was like, "I haven't done a muscle-up since I was a teenager." You know, it's like, is it kind of a - Mm-hmm. - gym feat when you're a kid just to see if you can? And as an adult, it's just... Also living in a van, obviously, you can't do muscle-ups because - Mm-hmm. - there's nothing to muscle-up on. - Right, right, right, right, right. - You're not hanging from - Right. - a little bar inside the van. But, yeah, I started doing them again. I was like, "Oh wow, it's so explosive." I was kind

of like, "Wow, what a dude." - Mm-hmm. - I was so psyched I could still do them. - Well, yeah, then you don't need his help. But I'll send you this account so you can take a look. He's got some interesting progressions. - Well, I did want to... I mean, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to chat with Huberman." And I was like, "So what am I supposed to be doing?" You know what I mean? - Oh, we can talk about that. But- But that's the thing, it's like, well, because I've just been doing all

the same training stuff for 30 years. I mean, and obviously I read all The books and all my friends are - Mm-hmm. - professional climbers, so we talk about this kind of stuff all the time. But there are a lot of things where you're always kind of like, as a self-trained, self-coached athlete to some extent, you're kind of like, "Should I be doing this more? Should I be doing this less?" Like, I was training a bunch this summer and was really motivated, and then I've kind of just, the pendulum has kind of just swung back

to being like, "Do I need to do trainee stuff like the calisthenics, the extra workout stuff? Or should I just go pure climbing?" Because to some extent climbing, like if you want to be a good climber, you just climb. Like, if you have energy left over, - Mm-hmm. - you should just climb harder or climb more. You don't necessarily need to save it for workout stuff and training stuff. So I don't know, but yeah. What do you think? - Okay, well, I'm not going to tell- - Even though you're not a climber. - I'll [unintelligible]

how to change his training, especially before - Yeah, yeah. - you take on a big milestone. - Yeah. - I mean, all I can say is what... And I don't have a degree in exercise physiology. What I do have a degree in is 35 years of trying to get stronger. - Yeah, like strength training. Yeah. - I'm naturally pretty... I would say like medium joints. I'm not like real thick joints, like my bulldog or like some of those guys that just have naturally, their joints, right? - Mm-hmm. - But I manage to keep in some

endurance and some degree of explosivity, but mostly strength and endurance have been the two main things. To me, the thing that has just been the most beneficial is what Pavel Tsatsouline taught me when he came here, which is a weight that you can maybe do six or seven, maybe eight reps with, and do three repetitions, set it down, and just do many more sets and rest for a long period of time, if you have time to do that. That really like, works those fast-twitch motor units. - You mean do the reps faster? - Well, no,

not necessarily. So if you take a weight that you could do maximum eight, like you'd fail somewhere between Seven and eight repetitions. - Okay. - You take the weight, maybe even add a little bit, and you just do three repetitions. You don't go to failure, but you do many more sets. - Mm-hmm. - So, you might do, let's say, some sort of push-pull, so like a shoulder press of some sort and then if you could get eight, you do three or four, but then you go do your pull-ups. You might do your sort of ballistic

pull-ups that we were talking about before. I'm actually getting a lot of progress from those, trying to blast through and past the bar - Mm-hmm. - and kind of catch it below me. - Keep doing muscle-ups? - I'm almost there. - Yeah. - I'm kipping too much when I do it. - Mm. - So, I'm doing it, but I'm kind of like throwing myself up there. I'm not doing a super controlled - Mm-hmm. - muscle-up yet, but soon. - Mm-hmm. - That's the goal. - But not training to failure seems to be really beneficial if

you don't want to eat into your recovery too much. There's something about hitting muscular - Mm-hmm. - failure that's great for generating hypertrophy, but it really, according to Pavel, and I'm finding this too, it sort of teaches your nervous system To reach that static point where you can't move any longer, and it really eats into your recovery ability. So, I'm able to now train muscle groups that I used to only be able to recover if I train them once or twice a week. I can train them like three or four days a week. - Hmm.

- And I'm making much more progress overall. But there's no single set where I'm like grinding out that last final rep. - That's interesting. So, bench pressing, for example. So, like that's actually the only weight - Mm-hmm. - that I move around is when I bench... - Mm-hmm. - Like when I'm at home and have, like, my own little home gym, I bench press twice a week, let's say. - Mm-hmm. - And I feel like it's good for shoulder stability and health. I don't know. It's nice to balance because - Yeah, definitely. - as a

climber you're always pulling. - Sure. - That's my only pushing, basically. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know something about that. Yeah. - And so I can do, like, I normally do three sets of five or six. - Mm-hmm. - It's just kind of like a basic something. - Mm-hmm. - So you're saying I should do six sets or eight sets of three or something. - Yeah. Maybe even eight sets of three to four with slightly more weight, - Huh. - but don't go to failure. And obviously have a spotter. There are these horrible instances where people

are benching at home and they don't have a spotter. - Well, I only have dumbbells anyway, so there's no- - Okay, perfect. That's the best way to do it. - Yeah. - Yeah, it seems... Like that's the type of thing too also. I kind of like the dumbbells because it seems more... Like so much of what I care about is shoulder stability and whatever, and I'm kind of like, "Oh, it seems like dumbbells are good for that." - Yeah. Barbell bench, I'm going to catch a lot of shit for this, but barbell bench press, there's

a lot of Ego involved for people- - Yeah, it's too showy. I'm like, "I don't need that shit." - Yeah. I've never actually done a single rep max for barbell bench press. - Oh. - Never been curious enough. - Because you don't have enough friends to help spot that much weight, yeah. - Don't have enough friends. Exactly. - You need like six guys to hold the bar. - I'm all alone, I'm studying, and I'm bench pressing alone in my basement. Another reason to use dumbbells. But yet, taking a weight that you could do seven or

eight repetitions and doing three or four or maybe five, and then just setting it down and going doing something else, maybe for an opposing muscle group and then Coming back to it so that your total rest is somewhere in between. - I might try that, particularly for the benching, because I do actually - Yeah. - get kind of sore from like, it's just kind of hard - Being sore sucks. - Yeah. - And you get really strong. I never would have thought this - Huh. - because I came up in the lineage of, I learned

from Mike Mentzer. He was an ex-bodybuilder, but then he trained Dorian Yates, who won the Olympia many times. - Yeah. - And that whole philosophy was around doing one or two sets to absolute failure with forced reps and drop sets and all the stuff that builds a lot of muscle But makes you very sore. - Mm-hmm. - And so, Pavel sat right where you're sitting, and he was just like, "Try this." Find movements you can do safely, load up the bar, and do far fewer reps, many more sets. - Mm-hmm. - And perhaps even divide

those sets across two days during the week, as you're already doing. - Mm-hmm. - As opposed to just training a muscle group once per week. - Do people do that? Doing something once a week? - I only train my legs once a week, and I'm getting stronger most every workout. But I sprint on a separate day. So that's kind of a leg workout. - Yeah. That seems like a leg workout. - I don't have great recovery ability. Never have. So it's- - No? And you know, pushing 50 and... - What's that? - And I'm pushing

50. - And pushing 50, yeah. - And I didn't run from the valley floor. - Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. - Right? You know, clouds... Exactly. I definitely have found that if I avoid going to momentary muscular failure as it's called, far less soreness, far better recovery, and you get really strong. Which is crazy. You would think the opposite. - Yeah. Do you think once a week is enough? Stimulus basically to build? - If you do enough sets, but probably twice... You know that the data seem to show that the muscle protein synthesis Is initiated

after those workouts, and then it takes anywhere from 48 to 72 hours before it subsides. I just personally find if I train my legs once a week but then I sprint four or five days later, that's sort of two leg workouts. - Yeah. - You know? - That makes sense. - So it's really twice a week. And then I do a push-pull day, - Mm. - and then I do a separate day for my arms and extremities, and that ends up training chest and shoulders and back again. So it's really twice per week, once directly.

- Yeah, so you're doing all your Stuff basically twice a week. - Yeah. But everything heavy. - That makes sense. - Like, really heavy, never going... I don't think I've done above eight reps this year. I'm stronger than ever, - Mm-hmm. - and I can run really far. Which is, so the two things... - Mm-hmm. - I would set those- - Do you do a long run during the week or something? - I do one very long run, which means an hour to an hour and a half of just - Oh, yeah? - running with

a 10 pound weight vest. - Oh, why? - Just to make sure the small stabilizing muscles are strong. - Uh-huh. - And also because I want to be able to just show up to Clouds Rest and just do it. I don't want to have to train for things in life. - Yeah, I can do that. - And also, I love running. I mean, just that slow pace at first, it just sucks, and then after about 20 minutes, you're just like, "I could go all day. This is awesome." - Mm. - I don't know. That's been

my regimen now for almost 35 years, to train each muscle group once a week, directly and indirectly. - Mm-hmm. - A long run and I try and do one sprint run. But again, I'm not going to tell Alex Honnold how to train, but you might find if you- - I'm always looking for ideas. - If you don't like getting sore and you want to get stronger- - Yeah, that makes sense to me. - You're hearing it from me, but it's really Pavel Tsatsouline that deserves the credit for this. - Yeah, no, I'll try that for

sure. Because particularly with something like benching, I don't really care about pushing muscles. - Mm-hmm. - But when your pec or whatever this muscle is like the connecting to your shoulder. - Mm-hmm. So the upper back region. - Yeah, it's like so sore and then that kind of affects all your pulling as well. And so you're kind of like, "Oh, you just don't need to get that sore doing something that's - Mm-hmm. Yeah. - like a side activity anyway." - Yeah. Yeah, and I'm guessing you're already getting it from your climbing, but I've found that

anytime I'm doing pushing, which is basically all the time making sure that I train like some rear deltoid type thing where you're pulling, getting that smaller muscle in the back of the shoulders. Because a lot of people... You don't have this problem, but if you look at a lot of people who lift weights, they just stand passively, their thumbs kind of point towards their groin. Like they're kind of internally rotated. - Yeah, rolling in, yeah. - Yeah, whereas if you look at people who kind of do like the Fonzie thing, like you want your shoulder,

you want your thumbs, like if you were just standing or sitting naturally, your thumbs pointing straight forward. So you're thinking like, "I've met Mike Tyson and like, he's like this," but like, he spent his whole life in this peekaboo stance, right? - Yeah. Yeah, totally. Then you meet people like you or people who practice yoga regularly or the really, like most impressive postures and physiques are the dancers, right? - Mm-hmm. - Like Eric Jarvis, who was on this podcast, he's a neuroscientist. He was accepted into the Allen... Is it Allen Ailey Dance Company? It was

like an elite dance company where you see like Twyla Tharp, Who's in her 80s. She doesn't look like - Yeah, right, right. - she's rigidly upright. She's just upright. - Mm-hmm. - And that's how I want to be when I'm in my 80s. - But that's so hard. - Well, it's just that she spends two hours a day in the gym seven days a week. - Wow. - 5:00 AM to 7:00 AM. - That is a friggin' routine. - And she's in her 80s. And then three hard-boiled eggs, and then she gets to work. -

Huh. - Like yeah, she's- - I'm like, "That's a healthy lifestyle." - And cognitively she's just so strong. - Oh. - You know? Yeah. - Yeah, no, climbers definitely have issues with posture like that because if you spend your whole life just pulling like, you know, climbing... - Mm-hmm. - If you just climb you're just doing pulling things and so you wind up kind of like- - So they're all bowed? Or they end up kind of like this? - Well, actually, you kind of want to hunch. I think it's because, like, you still use some

of these muscles for pulling - Mm-hmm. - and so you just wind up - Mm-hmm. - kind of tight in different ways. - Yeah. - But yeah, it's like the - So, things like they - hunchback for running. - put you in a bridge pose and like in spinal extension. Those seem to be very useful. Yeah. Again, I'm not an elite athlete or even a competitive athlete. But I find that doing things that just... Like a long, slow run or a sprint day training heavy with weights but being able to run for 30 minutes. I

mean, it's just I don't think I need a degree in exercise physiology to just... - Mm-hmm. - It didn't make sense. I'm trying to be the upper end of average at everything. But that's very different than what you're trying to do, obviously. You're an elite athlete. - Yeah, but some of the stuff like running- - Mm-hmm. - Like, I went for a one-hour run yesterday. I've been trying to run one - Mm-hmm. - day a week-Just like run for - Great. - an hour once a week. - Yep. - And then I try to do

one kind of cardio adventure once a week, which is like climb a mountain or do something, you know, anywhere from like - Awesome. - two to four hours, let's say, but hopefully with like 3000 plus - Mm-hmm. - feet of vert or something. - Mm-hmm. - Just like go up a thing - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - and kind of trot down. And that's kind of enough to maintain cardio. - Mm-hmm. - I mean, this is kind of like a family lifestyle because the thing is like, - Mm-hmm. - when I was living in a van by

myself, you're just doing that stuff on rest days all the time because you're kind of like, - Right. - "Oh, I'm going to summit this new peak or, Like, check out this hike or do whatever." - Mm-hmm. - But now that I'm living in a place and taking kids to school and all that, it's like I kind of have to be a little more structured with just like, - Mm-hmm. - "I'm going to go and..." But so yeah, now I'm definitely thinking about all this a little more. - Mm-hmm. - Just like, is this enough

cardio? You know, does this work? - Mm-hmm. - But I think that lays a good foundation to be able to do things. Like, I'm going to be in Yosemite this season, and I'm aspiring to climb stuff on El Cap. Not free soloing necessarily, or not free soloing at all but maybe some Like rope soloing, maybe some - Mm-hmm. - speed stuff, maybe whatever. But either way, I just want to be able to climb 3000 feet relatively quickly without being that tired. And so it seems like for running or for mountain climbing, it's like, "Oh, you

just have to be able to do that kind of vertical without getting too fatigued." - Mm-hmm. Yeah. - You know? - I think one day a week a long run, one day a week like 30 minute run at a faster clip and then one day - Mm-hmm. - a week sprint training. I mean, you're covering all bases there. - That's three days a week of running though. And I'm like, - Yeah. - "I don't love running that much." - Yeah, but one of them is like 12 minutes long. You warm up for three minutes. -

Is sprint training 12 minutes? - Yeah, because you warm up, and then you run a 400, and then - Yeah, okay. - you walk a lap, - Oh, okay. - and you do a 200. You walk a lap, and you do 100. And like you're not going all out, all out. - But close. - Yeah, you can hurt yourself sprinting all out, all out. We had Stu McMillan, who's an elite sprint coach, trains a lot of Olympians and gold medalists, and yeah, running full speed is like how you hurt yourself. You pop a hamstring or

something. - Mm-hmm. Are you at a track? - I prefer doing it at the track. Sometimes I'll do it in the soft sand. And when I use a vest, I should say, - Oh. - and I have no sponsorship relationship with them, Amorpho makes these vests that are like, it looks... And it's kind of funny to call it this, but it looks more like a kind of vest than a dress vest. And it's got little ball bearings in it. - Yeah? - So it's not like one of - Huh. - those police-type vests. - Yeah,

it's not. - And so that 8 or 10 pounds they make up to 12 pounds, I think, is just enough to give you some extra work on that long run. And then on the day when you sprint, you feel like you have jet propulsion. - Hmm. - You know, I feel like that. I realize I don't. - Interesting. - But yeah, I realize I don't. - Yeah, totally. Totally. - And then all the little stabilizer things, you don't have any like aching, like, you're... - Not really. - You seem, like, very balanced in terms of

your overall structure. That's one thing that I've really noticed about climbers. Like, you see guys that are in the gym, I've spent a fair amount of time in gyms, and there's this phenotype where they've got these big wide shoulders, wide back, and the whole thing, and then they got like, this little head and a little neck. And you go, "Well, their upper spot..." And they're not training their neck, and it looks crazy. I mean, I don't know if anyone has told - Mm-hmm. - them this, but they're like... You know, I walk by and I'm

like, "Don't skip neck day." You know? But when a body out of - I mean, is there a neck day? - balance like that, like if you saw a giant dog with a tiny head and Neck, you'd be like, "That dog is crazy-looking." That's it. - There are a lot of dog breeds like that where you're like, "That dog..." - Yeah. - You're like, "Hard to believe it came from a wolf," you know? - Exactly, they're so inbred. So, right, the healthiest version of something that can move best is always fairly balanced. It seems like

climbers are very balanced across their whole body. - No, I think climbing is one of the healthiest sports and, like, lifestyles. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - And also just it's so fun. Like, going to a gym, you hang out with your friends. It's like, it's mostly really chill. You mostly hang out and chitchat. And like, if you do a gym session, you feel like you just went and hung out with your friends the whole time. But then you also wind up fit and mobile and pretty strong. And so much of climbing is strength to weight. And

so you just wind up kind of lean and not like a big gym-bro kind of thing. - Mm-hmm. Which I think is healthier as one ages, too. Like, you want to maintain muscle and hold onto muscle, but there's all sorts of things associated with being heavily muscled where people end up with some kind of sleep apnea or pseudo sleep apnea because the neck is thick - Mm-hmm. - and it blocks the airwaves. And sleep apnea is one of the biggest health risks. - Hmm. - You know, people, not just heart attacks during sleep, but you're

basically clogging all the blood flow and cleaning out of your brain that happens during sleep. It's very, very common in bigger people, - Oh, my. - either because they're fat or heavily muscled. But it's one of the reasons a lot of bodybuilders die. - I'm like, "Thank goodness I've never put on that much muscle." - Yeah, well, you can clearly generate a lot of force doing what you're doing. I'm curious how you deal with cramps when you're on the rock. Like, you know... - No, you just don't really cramp. - You don't cramp? - Yeah,

not really. I've never... I mean, sometimes, if you're trying to climb El Cap in a day, like an 18-hour ascent or something like climbing with a rope but free ascents. Like, basically, if you're doing really long climbs, some of my friends sometimes will cramp or you because you're like, late into a post, - Mm-hmm. - 12 hours into an athletic activity, you're just a little more likely. But I never have. - Mm-hmm. - Pretty much in general, all my athletic performance is always a steady decline, Where I start and I'm doing great, and then over

the next 10 to 48 hours, I just slowly get worse at a relatively linear rate. - Hmm. - Except that normally before sunrise of the next day, it starts to drop quite a bit more. You know, like, as you start getting close to 24 hours, you're like, - Mm-hmm. - "I'm pretty fucking tired." - Yeah, yeah. - But then when the sun comes up, you've really jolt, like boost back up again. - Mm-hmm. - And so then you're pretty good again. - Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. - You just keep on the linear decline. - Mm-hmm. - So

these are all-night climbs? - Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've done quite a number of things now that are, like, more than 24-hour outings, you know? I mean, that's typically like climbing a mountain sort of you're like hiking and climbing and then hiking some more and climbing some more, doing whatever. - Mm-hmm. - But yeah, generally by 24 to 36 hours, you're just a worse version of what you used to be. You know, you're just tired. - Right. Right. And risk goes up when you're sleep-deprived. I mean, that's... - Well, like, where judgment gets worse. Reflexes

get worse. Like, everything is worse. - Sleep is key. But yeah, that circadian clock phenomenon where like, you've been up all night but then you start waking up again is pretty incredible. - Yeah, as soon as you see the sun. I mean, also, some of it with outdoor stuff is that it's just when you can see again, you know? - Mm-hmm. - You know, it's like, you've been going by headlamp for so long, and typically by that point, your headlamp is kind of dying. You just don't see that well. And then the sun comes up

and you're like, "Thank God." And it's not cold anymore. You're just like, "The sun." So you get this like, breath of fresh air and then you just keep grinding. - Mm-hmm. Have you ever had, or do you have any kind of like, leanings towards this, like, mystical experiences? Like, do you believe in any of that. - No, I've always been a fierce atheist. - Mm-hmm. - Technically I was raised Catholic, so like, I know religion a bit. And I've just never... I've always been like, "You know, it just doesn't make any sense to me." I'm

like, "Yeah, I'm strongly unreligious." Though, I've been in so many beautiful places on Earth and had so many What some would characterize as spiritual experiences, like feeling a oneness with nature, like a connection, or just awe-inspiring beauty, when you're just somewhere and you look out and you're like, "Oh, the universe is so incredible. This is like, the world is a magical place." So, I'm certainly open to general spiritualism, I suppose, or, you know, but no, I'm very opposed to organized religion basically. - Biology is awe-inspiring, how it's like- - Yeah, well, that's the thing. Because

I'm like, "I think there's enough wonder in the world and in the universe without adding all the layers of dogma basically." - Mm-hmm. - Like, all the weird things that you don't really need to believe. - I can't help but tell you this because I find it fascinating and I think you might find it interesting. If not, then forgive me. Speaking of Berkeley, there was a laboratory at Berkeley that wanted to understand how geckos could walk up walls. - Hmm. - And for a long time, it was thought that it was like suction of some

sort. But then it turns out they could do it in a vacuum, so it means that it can't be suction. - Hmm. - It turns out they have these little pedals on their little fingertips. - Hmm. - And they can push those pedals. They're organized sort of like feathers. They can push them so close to the surface that they're climbing that they use what are called van der Waal forces, which is the exchange of molecules - Hmm. - between the surface and those pedals, and they're making and breaking those van der Waal forces as they

climb. - Really, it's like Spider-Man. - Yeah. - It's like magical sticking. That's cool. - And so as they climb, they're exchanging molecules with the surface they're climbing, which I find absolutely amazing. - Hmm. - I realize that's not how you're climbing. - Well, I'm sweating all over the wall, So it's kind of the same idea, yeah. - There you go. Right. - Yeah, and I'm leaving skin behind. And you're like, "Oh, my tips. It hurts." - Yeah. Well, you may not feel a kinship to them, but I have a feeling they feel a kinship

to you because they're world-class climbers. And I just find it amazing that they've evolved some way to literally exchange molecules. So I mean, you spend a lot of time on the rock. I'm sure that you're carrying some granite in you by now. - Yeah, yeah. For sure. No, that's cool. I mean, you see a lot of creatures on walls like that, you know? You see little frogs wandering up and down. I mean, even something like El Capitan that looks like a 3,000-foot solid cliff. I mean, there are rodents running up and down the cracks. There

are frogs in there. There are all kinds of birds. There are bats. It's like you see all these creatures roaming around, and you're just kind of like, "Oh, they're just living. They're just up here doing their thing." And I mean, climbing is so relatively hard for humans, and then you're up there and, like, it's just all part of the natural environment for all the other creatures. - I didn't realize there were frogs up there. I've seen birds go by. I think there were a couple of clips in "Free Solo" where birds go by. - Yeah.

Yeah, they live in all the cracks, so often when you put your hands in, birds will run down your arm and fly out of the crack and things like that. And you're like, "Whoa." - It's startling? - Yeah, it's startling. - Yeah. - Well, I mean, it's very startling the first time and then, you know, less startling the subsequent times. But you're always kind of like, "Oh, wow, a swift just ran down my arm." - That's wild. - And it's like, "It's cool." - Well, Alex, you've inspired and continue to inspire so many people, and

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "It's the effort involved." You know, I think that many people might think it's the summiting and, like, standing on top of the rock and that those are moments that, thanks to you, we've been fortunate enough to share and experience indirectly. But clearly it's the effort involved, and I actually think that's why people are so intrigued by what you do in addition to the fact that it's in beautiful places and incredibly high-risk, high-consequence. It's so clear that you're regimented and that you love what you

do - Mm-hmm. - and that you put a ton of effort into it. And the way you describe climbing with your friends, I think, is the best hook sales pitch for climbing ever. Like, hanging out with your friends, talking and getting better and Physically healthier, and it puts you in a place to go have bigger adventures and experience life more richly. Let's also get you back sometime after this next big feat. We can't talk too much about it. - I'm sure it'll be amazing. - Awesome. - Yeah. - All right. Well, we'll see you after

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