Bishop Joseph Strickland Denounces the Pachamama Idol!

You've heard it many times people say that patcha Mama a pagan Idol was worshiped in the Vatican either by Pope Francis or by people that he permitted to come into the Vatican Gardens we've heard this over and over and over in fact take a look right here on Twitter where Bishop Joseph Strickland is using his platform to promote this very claim he says who spoke up when the patam mama Idol was paraded in St Peter's Basilica well in dedication to Bishop Strickland I offer the following video debunking the claim that patcha Mama was worshiped in

the Vatican Gardens the first video is an interview with Father Deacon Anthony dragani who shows definitively that the image in the Vatican Gardens was not Pam Mama after that is another video where I extensively cover how the claim that this was a Pam Mama Idol work wor shipped at the Vatican was an artificial Scandal contrived in the news and I outline the history and development of this artificial Scandal Bishop Joseph Strickland enjoy hey everybody welcome back to reason and theology your host Michael on a Thursday we're talking about the PCH Mama ceremony or the incident

at the Vatican back in 2019 and we're going to go over the whole thing and explain it joined by father Deacon Anthony drani to do this father Deacon welcome back to The show it's been a while how you been oh thank you Michael I'm doing great I love being here with you it's always a pleasure oh yeah and and I learn every time and look you're a religious studies professor and so this is right up your alley so I think that you have some contributions that you can make to the discussion that is unique in

comparison to many others who have commented on this including myself so I look forward of you know to hearing your perspective And learning because like I said I mean I'm not a religious studies Professor so I don't have the kind of perspective that you do so I'm really excited to hear about this um so yeah tell us um a little bit about the background here and just kind of take the discussion wherever you want to go sure so what I'm going to do first of all is talk a bit about my own background in religious

studies so you know where I'm coming from sure and then I'm going to talk a Bit about the controversy and then I'm going to take us through through the ritual that took place you know the whole ceremony step by step and explain every piece of it while showing a video excellent so uh my background is in religious studies I have a bachelor's degree in religious studies as well as philosophy and uh in that degree I studied all the religions of the world the major ones of course but I took courses specifically in things such as

Ritual mythology and for about 23 years now I've been teaching world religions as a course MH so during that period I've gotten very familiar with things such as animism Buddhism Hinduism you know Islam of course Judaism and I've spent a lot of time especially delving into the ceremonies and rituals practicing these various religions and the meanings behind Them so one thing that I've studied quite a bit is animism and animism is the traditional religion of the people of the Amazon I don't claim to be an expert on you know Amazonian religion or Amazonian culture or

rituals but I know enough about animism in general to know what it is and what it isn't I want to be clear when we're talking about indigenous religions there are literally thousands of different ones no two are exactly Alike but there are C certain common patterns that they follow so that's where I'm coming from somebody who studies this and teaches this so we're the whole oh go ahead I'm sorry sure so we're in the whole P of Mama controversy erupted the way I first discovered it was probably like you did on social media people talking

about it yep and um what I first saw reported was that there was a pagan ritual at the Vatican in which people from the Amazon Brought an idol of patam Mama with them and that they put this Idol there and in front of the Pope they worshiped patam mama that's the story I first heard I imagine that's what you heard as well correct that's right oh yeah that and videos yeah so hearing that my my alarms went off right because it didn't make any sense to me it didn't make sense because from what I know

and I've I've since researched this further to confirm it patam Mama historically Was an Incan goddess you know the Incan people sure the Andes region MH uh not from the Amazon as a matter of fact the uh people of the Amazon never worshiped pcha Mama Ever she was not an a goddess to them as a matter of fact typically there were no goddesses to them because the people of the Amazon were for the most part animists and for those who aren't familiar with it animism is a religious system in which they view nature as Being

full of spirits so they believe that all elements of nature have Spirits uh you know perhaps water could have Spirits the Earth perhaps they see spirits in all of creation and for that reason they tend to treat Creation with reverence and Care uh the Native American religions were largely animistic for example typically these religions do not have gods and goddesses uh an animist wouldn't have a statue of a goddess that they worshiped Now I'm going to put a disclaimer there it's possible that there were some you know people in the Amazon who were right next

to the Andes and picked up VIN gods and worshiped them that's Poss possible anything is possible but in general the vast majority of people in the Amazon the tribes there would never have woried Pam mama and as a matter of fact they wouldn't have statues of any gods or goddesses because that was not what they worshiped a great way of illustrating Animism by the way is uh May ever recall the old Disney movie Pocahontas yeah do you remember uh in the film Pocahontas goes into the forest and there's this Old Willow Tree she has discussions

with tree is alive and full of wisdom that that pretty much encapsulates the typical animist worldview the nature is alive the Nature has you know spiritual power within it and you communicate with it it's there it's all around us so again an animist wouldn't have a Statue of patam Mama so when I heard this it wasn't adding up why would people from the Amazon be bringing with them a statue of an incin goddess whom they never worshiped never had any Devotion to as a matter of fact they never even had Idols in the Amazon so

why would they have an idol to worship granted that images and things but they didn't have Idols of gods they worship that was not a thing in the Amazon ever again there may have Been exceptions but it made no sense and an example of how um how I saw this so Libya Libya geographically is not far from Greece is it m they're close by uh that being said although they're geographically close they have different cultures and different histories sure and today the majority of Libya is Muslim so imagine if there was an event in the

Vatican and it was dealing with the Middle East and delegates from Libya Were invited and those delegates showed up and brought with them a statue of the ancient Greek God Zeus and they set up the statute of the ancient Greek god Zeus and began worshiping it right there in the Vatican that would make no sense why would they because number one uh Zeus was never a god of Libya as a matter of fact the Libyan people today are Muslim the Islamic system is monotheistic they Would never worship another God such as Zeus but also Zeus

hasn't been worshiped by anyone in thousands of years the same is true for patam Mama as a goddess of the Incan people the Incan religion has been dead for a long long long time there are no actual patcha Mama worshippers of the Incan variety left now granted new age people everywhere new age people or um modern day uh people trying to reinvent old religious beliefs they may be claiming patam mama And using her name but as an Incan goddess there's no veneration for her anywhere in the traditional incin sense so so hearing this was just

as nonsensical to me as if Muslims from Libya showed up at the Vatican with a statue of Zeus to worship um the religious systems are very different and they're different cultures altogether and that's the same thing when you deal with the andies and the amaz the Amazon they may be next to each Other they both both may begin with the letter A but they're very different cultures with different religious Traditions so that number one set off red flags for me but then I decided to watch the video of what actually happened and we're going to

go through the video here in a few minutes but I when I watched the video I I could see what was going on I could see exactly what was taking place it was very Obvious to me I recognized the event and for me as somebody who studied this stuff for years and teaches it I mean it was pretty simple what was going on which was they were praying for the Amazon and for the people of the Amazon it was very clear to me and it was very clear to me these people were catholic as well

um so when I heard this I thought I'd try and just call People's fears and say hey wait a minute um I watched the video it's very clear that What's going on here is a prayer service for the Amazon in which these people are praying for the Amazon as a place and the Amazonian people and I was met with a lot of very hostile opposition people who were convinced of the narrative that it was idolatry and that Pope Francis Pope Francis San sanctioned idolatry and many of these people are are really good people like really

good faithful devout Catholics including many uh Priests and deacons that I know you know good holy priests and deacons that I respect were convinced that this was an act of idolatry and when I tried to explain to them that it wasn't and I try to give them the reasons why they didn't want to hear it they didn't want to hear it um it's almost like they wanted to believe that the pope was guilty of idolatry um I hope that's not the case that's how seemed to me like they wanted To believe this happened I think

part of it is that there were events leading up to the Amazon Senate that caused a lot of stress uh people were afraid that the Amazonian sonate would result in u the ordination of married men uh that was a big concern there also was fear that would lead to religious syncretism people saw as a trojan horse for other agendas so already there's a lot of Suspicion about the whole event so when this happened and something happened that appeared very foreign and very strange um you can see why people jump to the worst conclusion I can

understand why uh but they're approaching with a hermeneutic of Suspicion ah and I was always taught in both Theology and philosophy that you approach things with a hermeneutic of Charity where you try and look for the best possible interpretation so I would take the Interpretation that number one these people were catholic uh people from the Amazon who came were all Catholic they were not pagans they were Catholics uh I would take the approach that my first assumption would be that fellow Catholics wouldn't be worshiping a pagan God from a different region thousands of years ago

I mean that'd be my first assumption yeah uh my second assumption would be that the Pope the Vicor of Christ the Holy Father even if I don't Agree with him on everything wouldn't be sanctioning idolatry in the Vatican if he saw idolatry I imagine he would shut it down I mean that would be my first assumption um but people were taking the opposite approach I can imagine right now the Chad is probably on fire with people who are upset about this um not yet but but they will be they will be so here's there will

be some who are upset and some who agree with you yeah I think the Whole image itself the so-called patcha Mama statue has become a rack test you know I I actually by the way I hate to cut you off but I would just wanted to follow up with what you said there I did a poll cuz I just want to know what the viewers are saying be regardless however we're going to offer this presentation but I wanted to see what they thought and here's the poll 106 people have voted so far and um here's

what they they've said I asked Was the PCH Mama ceremony at the Vatican idolatrous 32% said yes uh 43% said no 25% said show just show me the results so they they didn't weigh in so it sounds like you know people are kind of split down the middle on this which I'm not surprised that's actually better than it was two years ago two years ago um probably the the Catholic sphere was that this was definitely without a doubt you know Pagan idolatry at its worst you know I I Used to initially when I first saw

this I thought that this was idolatry right and what got me questioning that however was was a specific part from the ceremony somebody pointed out to me some of the words that were said that made me had to start questioning that but we'll get to that later yeah we'll get to that when we go through the video um and you know I can't blame people for seeing idolatry because it's very foreign to most people and there's a Temptation When you see something foreign that doesn't make sense to assume the worst about it yeah I'll give

you an example a number of years back I knew a fellow um who an acquaintance and he decided to visit a Byzantine Catholic Church something I'm familiar with something you're familiar with MH and i' encouraged him to go well after he went to the Byzantine Catholic Church he contacted me and wanted to talk he was very upset because he had Never seen such horrible disrespect for Christ in the Eucharist like what do you mean and he said well first of all nobody was kneeling um there was no kneeling going on during liturgy people were standing

and as he believed um you you kneel to show reverence you stand when you're not being reverent um now as a Byzantine Catholic you know what the truth is here right Michael right which is if in the Byzantine tradition standing is a greater sign of respect than kneeling is yeah in the Byzantine tradition you kneel to show Penance you stand to show reverence but he saw us standing during liturgy and assumed we were just disrespecting our Lord right but but then we really UPS said him was and I'm going to use his words more or

less he said you know at the end of liturgy they brought out our Lord the body of Christ in a basket and held it there and people Just came by grabbing it like was bread and eating it the the prora he was extremely upset with it he never saw such tremendous disrespect for the Eucharist and he was actually angry he was enraged sure can you blame him well he jumped to the worst conclusion right sure sure sure explain to him what happened that number one we were standing out of reverence and number two that that

was not the Eucharist that was just blessed bread uh given at the end of liturgy he calmed down it made sense to him but the point is when he didn't know what was going on and saw something strange in forign to him it appeared to be something downright Blasphemous I think the same thing is happening here people are seeing a ritual that seems very strange very foreign and without understanding the symbolism behind it I can see why they would think this was a pagan ritual I can um and I'm not going to say that this

ritual was perfect or this was handled very well sure uh Pope Francis love him or hate him I think he has a general policy of not responding to his critics so he never explains himself so when something happens that people misunderstand and misinterpret he typically just ignores the critics rather than explaining it I think if This situation explaining what happened might have been the way to go yep one of the best articles I read about this from a critical perspective was from uh believe was Father Ray dusza okay and he wrote an article saying that

whatever happened here it should have been accompanied by some sort of Cate Cate catechesis sure this would have been an opportunity for people to explain things so we understood things uh that never happened and that probably was a missed Opportunity yeah I'm going to try and do that today actually I'm going to try and give that catechesis you know two years too late but um better late than ever yeah uh I was trying to explain it at the time but no one wanted to hear what I had to say interested understood I I can only

imagine you know they want they had a narrative that they wanted to believe in um I I know what you're experiencing because when I started to question that Narrative that's the moment I saw a lot of people turn on me and start to call me a demon worship Defender and I know that I'm not defending demon worship so I I said wow when people did that I realized hm if they're doing that to me I wonder if they're doing that to Pope Francis as well and sure enough they were so that really got me questioning

a lot of things yes yes exactly and and I was meeting responses of a similar level not quite as Extreme as that but people Were accusing me of defending the indefensible but it was basically an apologist for idolatry now what I want to point out here mhm is that all of us are Christians we're followers of Christ and Christ is the way the truth and the life and I want to talk about truth what matters more than anything in a situation like this is that we look for the truth and that we're open to the

truth what the truth as to what actually Happened here is extremely important even if the truth doesn't fit a narrative and we're all guilty of this you know if you're a Democrat you hear a story about a republican doing something wicked you're likely to believe it same thing if you're a Republican and hear a story about Joe Biden you're likely to believe it um sometimes these stories we hear are not true but we want to believe that they're true sure but the the actual truth what Really happened matters truth matters we have to be careful

of falling into an error of the Communists um you know communist thinkers such as trosky would Advocate The View that truth was malleable that there really was no objective truth and that you could Bend facts you could bend the truth to serve a moral purpose as Christians we do not believe that we believe that truth is objective truth is real and we have to look for it so we Have to really look at the truth here was this an act of idolatry of pagan idolatry of the inking goddess P patcham mama or was it something

else and I think people were not curious enough to look into the truth they just wanted to believe their set narrative I'm gonna pause there and let you ask a question or make a yeah because you're touching on a point that I think is very difficult for all of us myself included I I had to work through this personally It's hard to question some of these things when you've publicly taken a stance on something or at least at the very least internally taking a stance on something and you now have to admit that you could

be wrong that's hard to do for some people um again whether it's a public stance or just an internal stance sometimes there's Pride there and it's very difficult to say okay let me consider this new data maybe I was wrong here maybe I slandered the pope that's a Difficult decision to you know make to be open to well maybe I'm guilty of a major sin here maybe I publicly uh sinned against the Holy Father by accusing him of idolatry or somebody else of idolatry that's a very difficult thing so and that is a serious accusation

by the way accusing anyone of idolatry is very serious whether it's the whole Holy Father or whether it's our fellow Catholic Christians from the Amazon region because yeah in my opinion They were the victims in all of this because these people came in many cases to Europe for the very first time and they're exposed to a world they weren't familiar with and they perform a prayer service is really what it was it wasn't a ritual it was a prayer service and they're being accused of being Pagan idolators when these people were all actually devout Catholics

um I feel bad for them I think they were Really slandered in this and that's not fair to them at all but I'll I'll explain more as I explain what was happening during the ceremony yeah yeah that that's a good point to to mention those people who were slandered but you know the ongoing narrative has been focused especially on Pope Francis at this point I've seen people justify anything and everything as far as Disobedience to the pope slander against the pope because of this Incident Mora tizia and the death penalty now I've already addressed some

more satit multiple shows as well as the death penalty but and I've talked a little bit about the pamama issue but never from your angle and your level of expertise so that's why I decided to get you on here to speak about this because those are the main things that I hear people use to defend all kinds of dissident schismatic positions against the pope so I you know go go ahead and Take it wherever you want I've seen that as well yeah yeah so um in a moment I'm going to start the video but first

I want to make a comment okay I'm going to ask everyone to watch the video with me m and to not pay a special amount of attention to the wooden statue in the middle and I'll tell you why I think part of the confusion here is that because the statue is there people are assuming it's the focus of attention and the focus of Prayer what I'm going to point out though was that that statue was not there by itself what actually was there was a blanket with a artistic representation of the Amazon and on that

blanket was a whole bunch of different artifacts these were all symbols or artifacts that represent the people of the Amazon that statue was just one of the things on that blanket as a matter of fact that there there were two identical Statues like that on the blanket two of them and I want people to look at the video and just consider that maybe the words they're saying and the gestures they're performing are not directed towards that statue there were other objects there and maybe the attention was not on the Statue but on something else okay

consider that consider that as a possibility at least at least consider that as a Possibility and I'll explain why I'll explain why yeah that that's fair and I do want to say everybody hold up I know you're gonna throw in a million comments that I'm already seeing them but the pope said this he called it PCH mama you have the we're gonna get to that but we'll get to that for sure one thing at a time so hold off on that y'all the other thing I want to point out as well is that particular statue

the wooden statue of the pregnant Woman the naked pregnant woman is not an ancient Amazonian artifact it's not an old Idol as a matter of fact it's pretty new it was probably created in the past 10 15 years if not sooner um from what I could tell from the research I did it was actually created by an artist in Brazil in the Amazon region uh what happened was there's a a a group in the Amazon of Catholic missionaries um I think they're called The pan Amazon Catholic Network and they've been organized along the missionary activities

throughout the Amazon together with the franciscans and um they actually went to a local artist and asked about an image that could be used to represent the Amazon not for worship not for any ritual just an image that could be used to represent part of what their movement stood for you know very often move uh movements will try and get logos or an Image that represents them you know I've been to McDonald's that have that in the past at least had statues of Ronald McDonald in front of them I remember they don't see much anymore

but it's a kid I saw that all the time yeah um you remember that probably yeah yeah yeah and um this was that kind of a thing for this group they weren't creating an object to be used in worship they weren't creating an object being used for um rituals they were creating like a A logo in a sense a statue to represent the movement and the image itself was meant to represent the Amazon and they took it at some conferences and stuff and different events in the region but it kind of caught on and people

kept buying more of them from the same artist so keep in mind that this was never approached as a sacred object this was a work of art created by a living artist in Brazil it's very new this is not an Ancient Pagan Idol this is a new item all right we have to consider that and uh apparently in some places the natives the indigenous peoples on their own began referring it to it as a Maran image calling it Our Lady of the Amazon this just happened spontaneously they Associated it with Mary probably because it's a

woman a mother who's pregnant and you know marry and imagery can take different forms and it's not unusual for cultures that are Recently christianized to adopt Pagan elements and christianize them or to look for things they can associate with Mary in this case it wasn't even a pagan element it was simply a new work of art that was created in the past 1015 years so consider that that this object they brought is one of many objects they brought to represent the Amazon and that it was a new object object no one would think of it

as being a God or an idol because it was it was Like a statue created by living artists in New York City today it' be like the equivalent maybe of showing up with a you know a painted a painting by Andy Warhol or something something that represents you something you appreciate but not something of deep religious significance necessarily does that make sense does yeah all right hopefully everyone's following me with an open mind that's all I'm asking for tonight is an open Mind please an open mind and I want to be clear if I believed

idolatry was taking place I would condemn it I will not tolerate idolatry of any kind right um I'm not being an apologist for anything or anyone I just want the truth to take precedence so with that being said how about we start the video um do it okay uh let me add that to my screen uh y'all okay it's going now I'm going to jump ahead a bit to there's some opening stuff um nothing Remarkable just local people and people from the organizations welcoming the pope so I'm going to start right here at right before

the next speaker the first few speakers were again people just welcoming the pope and making some general comments but the next speaker here is actually the opening prayer and I want people to see this prayer in its context because this prayer is actually um a prayer in the Name of the trinity and it's a prayer that quotes heavily from the canle to Creation by St Francis so the priest here is talking about he's praying for the Amazon praying for the people and he quotes extensively from St Francis canle To Creation you're familiar with that I

sure yes you know the Sun the moon the Earth he quotes from that extensively keep in mind this was taking place on you know the Feast of St Francis and this event had a stated purpose the stated purpose of this event was to pray for the Amazon and to pray for the people of the Amazon now you may be wondering why were they praying for the Amazon well the Amazon as a place is actually endangered um there are a lot of corporations in that region who are trying to take over the land and by by

The way can you turn them down just a little bit so because they're they're at the same volum as you is that is that good that's a little bit better yeah go ahead how's that yeah that's good okay so did anyone hear anything I just said or should repeat it all yeah yeah I I I heard you but if you want to maybe just Briefly summarize it because some people may struggle with that so uh I'm going to pause there and just say so the priest was giving a uh An opening prayer in the name

of the trinity in which he quoted extensively from St francis's cacal to Creation again this day took place on the feast day of St Francis and part of the event was to consecrate the send it to the Amazon to the protection of St Francis but also and it was stated that they were there to pray for um the people of the Amazon and for the Amazon as a region because the region is endangered there are a lot of Corporations in that part of the world that are trying to take over land and the native peoples

there are fighting for their survival in many cases so praying for the Amazon as a region is also a priority at this particular event if that makes sense MH so as the priest assumes the opening prayer which I want to assure everyone is very Christian it's an Italian but he's talking about the trinity in quing from St Francis we see here the Blanket some media referred to it under various names but it was simply a blanket with an image of the Amazon and on it they placed objects that represent the Amazon and the Amazon's people

so you see two of those uh images of the pregnant woman you also see some fruit you see you know artifacts like a pipe and maybe some pottery it's all stuff that represents the people and what they're all about you see a little canoe there with a an or because the Amazon River is a big part of their culture now what you can't see here is if you pull a little bit further back there actually are um pictures of people around scattered around on the on the ground and these are pictures of people who died

uh as Martyrs in the belief of the indigenous people so some of them are Catholic lay people some of them are images of Catholic religious who died uh one image that's given prominence is of a nun Named sister Dorothy Stang I believe and she was a a Catholic nun who was a missionary she helped evangelize a lot of people they called her the angel of the Amazon but the uh local corporations didn't like how she was uh strengthening and helping the indigenous people and they had her murdered okay so these people that are there are

Catholic saints did I understand that right uh in the eyes of the indigenous people Catholic martyrs okay they may not have Been canonized though okay yeah but but they were Catholic martyrs yeah yeah and guys are the people yeah some might argue that they weren't really Martyrs because they were killed for standing up for the IND people as opposed to standing up for Christ but one could argue that by standing up for the indigenous people they were standing up for Christ gotcha gotcha yeah so but again these are images of people who are Catholic who

who died trying to help the People of the Amazon okay so those images are around as well so you need to have this in context right sure so there's a picture of a nun right by there who who died for these people so the priest is finishing up his prayer and again you can look it up but it's largely a quotation from St francis's Canticle to the sun yeah and then after that the next fellow comes up this priest and this priest is introducing the group he is introducing A delegation of indigenous people from the

Amazon and what he's saying is that they brought with them artifacts that represent their culture and artifacts represent the people and the Amazon itself and some things represent U his words are along the lines that some of the things represent the Earth some things represent water some things represent you know the sky and that there are things that represent U the Saints who died the martyrs as well is What he's saying now representing water Earth stuff like that is that animism no what that is is appreciation for the Amazon as a place okay now we

have to understand that there may be Echoes of animism in their variety of cathol ISM but again that's not unusual um the main echo of animism here would be showing respect for nature and understanding that nature is almost like a mother to us sure but that does not Mean you're worshiping it sure they're not worshiping these things but they have respect for them and those things represent the Amazon region to them you see that the people of the Amazon even the Catholics view the Amazon as a mother because it gives them life it sustains them

but they don't worship as a God does that make sense it does yeah yeah and I think it's important to note that there are plenty of Echoes if you will that have come from paganism in Catholicism as a whole they've been baptized they're not um they're not Pagan as far as they're somehow um evil in and of themselves right I mean there's nothing that is evil in and of itself that can be baptized into the faith but you know like the wedding ring that I have on came from paganism but there's nothing wrong in of

itself with a wedding ring now you can't baptize something like idolatry right that that's not something that can be brought Over into the Catholic faith but in animism respect for nature is is fundamental and that can be brought into Catholicism without a problem because they're not worshiping nature as a God but they do have respect for it as something sacred something that helps sustain their livelihood sustains them okay so he's int he's introducing this delegation and the Del is going to arrive I want to be clear it's confirmed that all of these delegates are Catholic

Not one of them is a practicing animist not one of them is Pagan these are all Catholics who came as delegates to represent the indigenous people so they're going to come in and now we're going to get really interesting because as they're coming in I'm G to turn the Vol slightly they're singing a song now various news outlets were describing this song as being a pagan enchant some were claiming it was a pagan ritual or or a you know an Incan Ritual so there's a lot of talk about this Pagan chanier doing as they came

in but actually the priest who introduced them said exactly what the song is it is not a pagan chant It's actually an indigenous folk song about arriving on a river the name of the song is I rode like rode a boat you'll see that some of them are carrying ORS mhm they're actually singing a folk song about traveling someplace going on a journey on a river because they journeyed here Do you see what I'm saying yeah and you can turn somebody saying you can turn the back up background up just a little bit that'll be

fun but if there's any part that you want us to hear the audio about you can maybe turn that up even more specifically right now to be clear from this point on the audio isn't super important because the recording itself is terrible uh they did not capture the audio well at all in this video probably Because when this whole event happened they didn't think anything of it they probably didn't realize it would be examined like you know a forensic crime scene sure uh so the audio is terrible um so you can barely hear anything they're

saying sure so I want to be clear that from this point on most of what they're saying I'm guessing at because you can't actually hear what they're saying okay and they are speaking another language Altogether but even then you can't translate it because you can't really hear them but the priest described the song and it's a song about rowing on a river an indigenous folk song okay so you see they have the ores and everything right right now again this was described as a pagan as a pagan song a pagan chant it's a folk song

about traveling on a river called i road so now they're circling around the blanket Now here's where people get really uh really confused they see them circling the blanket so they assume they're worshiping what's on the blanket mhm they're not they're here to worship God so why are they in a circle well in indigenous religions as a general rule circles are seen as sacred and they typically view a circle as representing the cycle of life and circles are seen as sacred forms now People may say ahha that's paganism well I also want to be clear

that in most cultures religion and culture are not separated they're one and the same as a matter of fact religion is a separate category is a modern modern uh invention thinking of religion as something separate is a modern way of thinking throughout most of human history religion was simply culture the two went together so even Though these people are Catholic they brought over some practices that were part of their culture right they can't just throw away their culture and part of that is praying in a circle so they're forming a circle to pray and again

that's something you'd find in any indigenous culture uh forming circles to pray is pretty common in most indigenous cultures want to be clear on that so that's where they're Praying in a circle now don't we consider things sacred in so far as they pertain to something like the Liturgy or the worship of God so the word sacred literally means set apart mhm so something is sacred in the sense that it's something special something with deeper meaning um so as Catholics we talk about the Liturgy being sacred but also as Americans when we talk about things

like the um you know the Declaration of Independence being Sacred things that are special things that are meaningful you get what I'm saying sure yeah so they're forming a circle here because that's how people pray in that culture so people see them forming the circle and praying and they're assuming that they're worshiping what's in the middle of the circle they're not they're praying to God at this point so if you take a look what they're doing now they're holding hands and they're Beginning to pray do you see this yeah and again at this point the

audio is of no use uh yeah I can't even hear anything yeah yeah I have it cranked up you can't hear anything it just yeah recording is terrible but they're singing a song and they're beginning to pray and they're holding different items and artifacts that represent their culture to them one one of them I believe is holding a picture of a a martyred Nun so they do their little song and again I can't tell you what they're singing Because the recording is terrible yeah do we do we have a transcript of it by no there's

no transcript yeah so so we got to assume that they're not just sneaking in something idolatrous how to know and I want to consider I want to also add in if you look at the context this was a Christian event it began with a Christian prayer yeah and then right After this a bunch of Christian speakers speak about things that are Christian things that are Catholic be pretty weird to have an event at the Vatican you know that begins with a prayer has Christian speakers and then the middle of it goes to full Pagan and

then back to Christian again pretty strange sure so we also have to consider the stated purpose of the event which was to pray for the Amazon and to pray for the people of the Amazon so and the burden of proof would Have to be on those who would assert that it's idolatrous they would have to come forth with evidence that that Happ you can't you can't you can't convict somebody of idolatry without evidence right I I I always say innocent until proven guilty that's very true when it comes to idolatry as well we know these

people are Catholic we can assume they're praying with the event is about which is praying for their people praying for their Land so this is another song they're doing I don't know if it's a religious song or if it's another folk song could be either we don't no there's no transcript and there's no audio but we would assume in a spirit of Charity that as Catholics they're not sneaking in a prayer to an Aztec goddess right that would be pretty out of character for any Catholic to be praying through an ancient in praying to an

ancient incing goddess in the middle Of a Catholic ceremony at the Vatican sure and I know some people were really condemning that poor Franciscan brother there um when all this went down people were saying what a what what a um sacrilege he was and how he was an Abomination to the franciscans he's an indigenous person who's a Franciscan brother praying to God and we'll we'll see more of that here in a second as soon as this little song is done we're going to see them go Into serious prayer mode it goes on for a while

and by the way uh I watched multiple videos of this from different angles okay some videos you can see some better than in others during this whole event for better for worse Pope Francis was very very tired and he appears to KN off him multiple times for long stretches so so the idea that Pope Francis was there eagerly presiding over an idolatrous Pagan ceremony well at the Very at the very most he was sleeping through an idolatrous pan ceremony appears to be totally nodding off off and on during this whole thing depending on the angle

you're looking at but again you can see there just doing their their dance and their song and again dancing isn't inherently Pagan sure I mean a lot of cultures dance to show joy and celebration sure and dancing is a form of worshiping God it's not unheard of either Um King David right oh oh there there's there's a picture there you see our Holy Father maybe he's praying I saw his hands move so we'll assume that he's praying we'll assume that he's praying he's in deep prayer so here's when they begin to pray so as they're

praying I want you to pay attention to where they're looking at are they staring at the Statue with with with deep intent or are they looking somewhere else let's just watch With me and see where are they looking while they pray where are they looking prayer is about to begin and the the stuff that he's wearing here it's not is this inherently Pagan or something like that it's a cultural item okay okay some people interpreted that that he was a shaman mhm no no no this is a cultural item from the culture it's what people

wear in his group okay this lady here with her arms up first of all note she's the one leading the prayer She's the prayer leader notice where she's looking where is she looking up to heaven up to heaven you're going to see that they're all looking up to heaven while they're praying they're not looking at the Statue they're not focused on the Statue they're not praying to the Statue they're praying towards heaven because they're looking towards God symbolically so they're in a circle Which to them is like a Sacred Space praying towards God in heaven

and this lady here I I feel bad for her CU she got a lot of horrible attacks I saw multiple respected Catholic news outlets report that she was a pagan a pagan Shaman okay and based on what evidence the the photo she looks she looks strange okay so no actual evidence that she's a shaman it's just based on the appearance right but multiple news outlets respected Outlets with with Large readerships reported that she was a pagan shaman on multiple occasions I looked up I looked her up um she's actually a local tribal leader from her

part of the Amazon and she is Catholic she's very Catholic as a matter of fact she stuck around for the whole Senate and she did a few interviews in when she talks a lot about the church and about the faith and about the struggle of the Amazon people but always from a Catholic context she Is Catholic she is not a pagan Shaman is there evidence that she's somehow a syncretist she's both Catholic and a sham or something I've seen okay so no no no evidence for that so for those who would present that as a

view they would have to provide evidence for provide evidence that she's a shaman please okay U she is a tribal leader and tribal leaders oftentimes engage in you know leading rights and rituals but those rights and rituals Aren't necessarily religious they're cultural okay kind of like well I'll tell you where I live you know 40 minutes away the leaders of the local community they have a strange ritual or once a year they bring out a rodent type creature called a groundhog and they put it out there and they have it look for its shadow and

they make all kinds of predictions based upon that that sounds very pagant to Me it's just at this point is part of the local culture punani Phil Right sure sure so she's leading the prayer again you'll notice they're praying towards heaven see they had their hands up in the Orin posture mhm again they're all looking towards heaven praying towards heaven they're praying to God now again I cannot hear the prayer no one can there's no transcript of it but the context was that they were praying for the people of the Amazon praying for the Amazon

and that's why all of those things are in the middle of the circle those are things that that represent what they're praying for MH or here's where the people going to overdrive look they're bowing and worshiping the statue they're worshiping the statue right right right y that's the that's ground zero right there right this is Ground Zero all right I'll tell you what I saw in many cultures in many religions it's not at all uncommon to punctuate a Prayer with a full prostration okay that's very normal in many cultures all over the world the people

will pray and then they'll end the prayer with a prostration or do a prostration in the middle of the prayer as a matter of fact uh as an Eastern Catholic you're probably familiar with this oh yeah we do a lot of prostration sure yeah yeah and you know during lunch for example we do the Prayer of St Ephraim mhm and multiple times during the Prayer of St Epim we just stop what we're doing and make a prostration MH when we're prostrating we're worshiping God now in my church whenever we do the Prayer of St Ephraim

you know people just go wherever they can to find Space we can't all be on top of each other doing prostrations it doesn't work that way you need space so people spread out so some people are in front of or right behind the baptismal font doing you know the frustrations during the Prayer of St Efraim so while they're praying while they're doing the prostration the baptismal fund is directly in front of them does that mean they're worshiping the baptismal font right right of course sure right you see what I'm getting at these items are there

in front of them not just the statue but all of these items are in front of them because that's what they're praying for but they're not praying to those things they're praying To God and they're punctuating their their prayer with a prostration and again I don't know what they thinking I can't tell you what's in their minds but the most charitable and I think the most accurate assumption would be that they're they're praying to God and they're punctuating their prayer to God with a prostration to God okay does that make sense to you it does

I'm following does seem reasonable I'm following you so are yeah yeah yeah now some people Are going to say but they're venerating deliberately the statue they're not they have to prove to me that the statue is the focus of that prostration okay the burden's on them to prove that I think it's very clear that they're praying to God and the frustration is to God just happens to be that there are these items they're praying for in front of them which isn't just that statue but a whole bunch of other Stu whole bunch of Stuff the

statue is just one of many ARS brought with Martyrs and other things Catholic pictures of Marts other things sure okay and then the pro the prostration is finished and now once again they're going to pray upwards towards God and here's you see what I'm saying they finish it by facing towards God the prostration was just a punctuation of the prayer at the end of the prayer now At this point they're going to bring gifts to the Holy Father okay so the lady there who's leading it and people may say oh she's carrying you know Morocco

that's clearly a pagan artifact of worship no it's a cultural artifact used in the culture as a form of of Celebration mhm so they're going to bring up gifts to the Holy Father and notice one of the gifts is one of the statues there are two of Those statues there they're going to give one to the Holy Father as a present and it's it's just if you want to pause it for a second it's interesting with the morocca point because don't some of our garments that we use liturgically actually originate in paganism I'm not saying

that they're inherently evil or anything like that I actually love our lurgical tradition but I'm just saying don't some of those things come from Pagan elements so as a as a deacon when I vest before The Divine Liturgy I put on I put on items of clothing that originated as civil where in the Pagan Roman Empire yes and the lurgical censor even though you do have some instances of that being used in the old Covenant it seems like a lot of that actually in in the New Covenant period adapted from the Roman Empire if I'm

not mistaken and it's use in the secular society and we're going to watch them present the Gifts to the Holy Father and as they give the gifts I want you to see how they react to the Holy Father after giving him the gifts just see what they do so the this lady is giving him a ring now there's a lot of stuff written about this ring it's called I think called it a tokm ring it's a special kind of ring made of a specific substance um I forget what it's made of but it's something special

okay people were claiming that that ring is a symbol of Liberation Marxist theology okay okay it's true that that ring has been used by some Liberation Theologian people but that ring has much deeper roots in the culture it's a sign of cultural belonging so by giving him a ring that matches hers she's showing that he is an honorary member of their tribe their culture got it so it's not like inherently communist or anything no it's it's she's basically saying you're one of us it's her way of saying to the pope You are one of us

so she's giving him a ring that matches hers okay and look look what happens next watch what she does what did you just see there sure the sign of the cross yeah that that ancient Pagan Incan ritual the sign of the cross right from from which demons flee right yeah exactly so next the lady is going to give him the statue of what she calls Our Lady of the Amazon because at that some of the natives interpreted As a Maran image they call it our lady of the Amazon so she tells him It's Our Lady

of the Amazon He blesses the image she gives it to him by the way if that really was an image of an ancient Incan Goddess that they worship if that really was an idol people don't typically give away their Idols as gifts yeah now didn't they say something there in the audio Our Lady of the Amazon in Spanish yes she says Our Lady of the Amazon yes that's exactly what She says you can't really hear it too well but that's exactly what she says Our Lady of the Amazon here's a great question that I actually

saw in the chat and I want to I want to briefly address it now before I forget it uh not saying anything against Michael or Deacon but why couldn't a larger news Outlet do this early if Deacon couldn't could find um the info and couldn't a train journalist that's a great question why is it that news Outlets didn't do this think about that for a moment do you want to comment on that father D I can't say for certain why they didn't but I think I think there were two types of outlets involved here there

were Outlets that that weren't too concerned by the story and just moved on to other things because a lot was going on during the Amazon Senate a lot and then there were news outlets that specifically had it in for Pope Francis and they saw this as an Opportunity to discredit the entire Senate so those news outlets that did comment on this ask yourself that question why didn't they do a play byplay of this ask that question I think that's a great question to but In fairness uh you know most most news outlets don't have a

staff member who has a lot of experience you know studying and teaching uh indigenous religions but they could reach out to somebody who does it wouldn't be too Hard to call somebody most universities have somebody like me sure um so she gives him the statue and calls it Our Lady of the Amazon Our Lady of the Amazon and then finally this fellow brings him a necklace again the necklace just symbolizes their people it's a way of showing that he's part of their culture and he wants to put it on the pope himself to show that

he's one of Them again this kind of thing happened all the time with Pope Shan Paul II and mean notice what he does he Crush himself because he is also Catholic these people are all Catholic they're not pagans M and then at this point they do another song and you're going to see what happens here we're nearing the end of the segment we're looking at but they're preparing to leave they're going to do Another song and they're going to process out and again I can't tell you what they're singing Because the audio is so bad

there's no translations out there no transcripts but we can assume it's the same theme they've been going with all along which is celebration of the people and the culture of the Amazon and a prayer to God for the Amazon and his people and again you know people are just kind of sitting there watching nobody Watching this thinks this is remarkable by the way um no one's sitting there is thinking oh my gosh I'm watching the Abomination take place God is going to send a plague to punish us now this is like an ordinary hoam thing

and this kind of thing happened with Pope John Paul II all the time and we're actually going to do a video on that the ace thing that's going to be a separate video and so now they're Leaving they're leaving right mhm that was the whole ceremony right there the whole the whole Abomination was that um now as they're leaving they all stop to to you know basically get a to say goodbye to Pope Francis um to show him respect you can tell they actually admire him and they love him because they're Catholic and they like

the pope MH there used to be a period of time in which Catholics did like the Pope that used to be a thing yeah I remember those Days so those old times but do do you do you see why maybe somebody who isn't familiar with what's going on culturally you see why they would say this is bad Optics it looks scandalous it looks like idolatry and there should have been more catechetical instruction and clarification and that is a legitimate argument I think it is I think I think the best criticism that can be leveled against

this is there should have been some catechesis as to what's taking Place especially once the Scandal broke there have been a great opportunity to explain it yeah um that never happened that is a very much a legitimate criticism I can say that for certain and I to see what happens here with this because these people are leaving so they're going past the pope some of them are asking for his Blessing and as they're leaving Watch What Happens here I going to point one more thing out to You we're going to see once again the lady

who was leading the prayer who's been accused repeatedly of being a pagan Shaman MH I want you to see what she does as she leaves I remember somebody was talking about how they wanted to dig up that tree and rip it out of the ground how dare they plant that tree how dare they plant a tree how dare they watch would the so-called Pagan Shaman does MHM that was the guy with a hat by the Way who's also accused of being a shaman here's the lady who was accused of being a shaman watch what she

does MHM she wants the pope to bless her and she crosses herself as she leaves m a pagan Shaman would never do that in a million years right right yeah she wasn't there praying to an ancient incing goddess she was praying to God now I I have some questions here are you by the way done sharing the screen at the moment how do I get the video off How it's going I got it yeah so okay I I got I have some questions here first of all um the image itself that's again ground zero right

in the video they call it our lady Our Lady of Amazon so it seems that their intention was just to venerate the Virgin Mary at at the most under this appearance at the most at the most couple questions here um there was leaked audio where Pope Francis refers to the image as patam mama what say you to that yeah I remember when that Happened and I'll tell you why that that hit me hard because at that point I've been trying to explain to many priest and Deacon friends of mine that it was not idolatry that

from what I could see these were Catholics praying in a way we're just not familiar with in the west and um they they weren't really believing me but some were kind of coming around and then Pope Francis referred to the Statue as P patam mama and when that happened immediately They're like aha we knew it he's admitting they're worshiping the inking goddess and I'm like okay what do you want me to do now how do I respond to that um what actually happened there was Pope Francis was addressing the uh when the statues were stolen

and thrown in the river and by that point the whole media was calling Pacha Mama right so probably without even realizing the context he called them patam Mama because that's what the whole media was Calling them that had become shorthand for the statues yes so rather than saying you know the wooden statues of pregnant indigenous women you said patam Mama sure and that that was a mistake on his part that was a gaff yeah uh I don't think he realized that that just confirmed that he was committing idolatry in people's eyes but the truth is

he was simply using the shorthand term that everyone was using at that point in time I was calling it patam Mama by that point explaining what it was and what it wasn't I was using that term a shorthand and now by the way if you actually look at a real image of patam Mama a true image of Pam Mama Pam Mama appears to be an anthropomorphic Mountain yeah um ever seen the movie Moana yeah and Moana there's this goddess who's like an Earth goddess who looks like an island it's anthropomorphic that's what patcham Mama looks

like uh there's never been an Image of patam Mama as a naked pregnant woman have you seen where you have versions of the Virgin Mary as that mountain I'm GNA add it to the screen right now have you um well among the the people of the Andes region um patam mama and the Virgin Mary um patam Mama being reinterpreted as a image of the Virgin Mary is not at all unheard of necessarily let me show that on the screen right now because is this an instance where you have Catholics and This is way before the

Amazon Senate is this an example where Catholics take some element from paganism and turn it into something Catholic oh absolutely yes and that can happen so there are instances of patam Mama being viewed as an image of the Virgin Mary in the region where Pam mama was woried the Andes region where the Incans lived um there there's no reason why that would happen in the Amazon um that being said that being said the term patam Mama the name patam Mama isn't some inherently Wicked evil name all it means is Mother Earth pcha means ground okay

Mama means mother it's Mother Earth it's Mother Earth that's all it is and veneration for Mother Earth is not uncommon in indigenous cultures that's that's a pretty normal thing but do we as Catholics venerate created matter like Mother Earth you know venerating it as something special Isn't necessarily a problem provided we understand that it's an instrument of God but we should never worship it like an icon is is that what you're getting at or the Earth can be viewed as an icon absolutely okay but it's never to be worshiped but the Earth is not like

a a a person so when we venerate an icon it's a person who's made in the image of God but the Earth isn't made in the image of God so how can there be this lit veneration of a representation of Earth or something I sometimes worship I sometimes I never worship an icon but I sometimes venerate icons that don't actually show a person there are icons of objects can you give me an example okay um there's the icon of the Holy napkin okay um isn't isn't that the face however of Jesus though right but the

icon itself the veneration is Ed towards the object more so than towards a person what about venerating the cross is that maybe an instance absolutely yes Venerating the cross as well yes and there are icons of the Cross yeah without Jesus on it is just literally venerating what again if you look at St francis's Canticle to Creation it certainly strikes me as a veneration of creation okay now with the oh I'm sorry go ahead I'm sorry but you but you would never worship creation you would never worship Mother Earth that's the difference sure now with

the Incarnation we have creation itself Being impacted through through the Incarnation being Sanctified being united if you will to the son son of God and not just not just humans but the entire entirety of creation is being redeemed as we see in the Book of Romans so there and again there are levels of veneration too right um sure the veneration we show towards an icon of Our Lord might be different than a veneration we would show towards a statue of Abraham Lincoln is is this why We see like brother son sister Moon kind of language

from St Francis of AI which they brought up I think didn't they bring that up at the beginning yeah the opening prayer from The Franciscan priest quoted extensively from that yes so it's kind of the same same idea same same idea and again I'm not saying we need to go venerate the Earth but I'm saying that venerating the Earth as something that reflects God's glory uh there's nothing inherently wrong with That provided it does not laps into worship provided we don't worship it I I see what you're saying now with with those proper distinctions of

mine now what would you say to those who say okay well this is a if it represents the Virgin Mary it's a really poor depiction of her what would you say then I wouldn't argue with that that's not how I would depict the Virgin Mary agree um I would say too it's it's an ambiguous image yeah and ambiguous Images you know can be potentially dangerous U I personally would not use it in worship but that being said going from it being an ambiguous object ambiguous image to being an ancient Incan Idol is quite a leap

yeah now I I want to again emphasize that the focus of that ceremony was not the image mhm it was on a blanket with a bunch of other things that also represent also represent the Amazon People but it became the focus after that because then they bring it into the church and have other ceremonies with they actually had it all over the place and I'll tell you why because that image was representative of the of the movement of the Amazonian Catholics see the indigenous Amazonian Catholics kind of adopted that as their image right okay that

was something they they related to they saw it as something they represented them so in the various Churches um they would have various objects represented them I remember seeing one church that had inside of it like a like a little boat and it had one of those blankets with a picture of the Amazon and it had one of those images um but it wasn't the focus it was just one of the things that represent the people of the Amazon one one quick point however about depicting the Virgin Mary under this appearance if if one wants

to consider This the Virgin Mary as we heard our lady of the Amazon in the ceremony um you know some people say look she's bare breasted and so that's that's profane look I don't think that the Virgin Mary should be depicted that way either but I've seen some medieval paintings where she's not only be breasted but other things are going on which I find offensive but I know that people at that time didn't find offensive I've seen a classical works of art of Mary be Breasted with Jesus um you know right yeah and other things

and so it's like yeah you know not my cup of tea I I don't prefer those images either so in the same way there I would say I personally wouldn't depict the Virgin Mary in this way I also wouldn't depict her in the way some of the medievals did um in the west so and again I'm not under the impression that the majority of Amazonian indigenous people necessarily see it as a Virgin Mary but Some do some that's what I wanted to get at because again now in the ceremony they call it that now there

was a press conference where they then asked what this was was it the Virgin Mary and one person I forget his name but he was speaking on their behalf and said it was something neither sacred nor profane it basically represented Mother Earth so he then goes on to say it's not the Virgin Mary so some of the confusion comes from the ceremony calls it the Virgin Mary Pope Francis then calls it P mama and then the guy who clarifies in the Press office says it's neither sacred nor profane it's it's neither the Virgin Mary nor

something idolatrous it's just mother a symbol for Mother Earth there's a lot of confusion about the image because it's an ambiguous image there's no fixed meaning with it now there's did you ever hear of the Italian episcopal Episcopal conference prayer that they published about Pam Mama do you remember that by any chance when did this happen this was in 2019 I I want to get your thoughts on this because this really before or after the the uh the the C event this was April um let's see um April 2019 publication um so this was this

was before this event took place right right um now I'm looking at catholicculture.org right now Who published this in October but they're saying it was um released in April of 2019 I want to read this to you because a lot of people got concerned I want to get your impression here the Italian Episcopal conference um in fact let me just share it on my screen I think that would be helpful uh let's see here okay so Missy the Pastoral agency of the Italian Episcopal conference published a prayer to patam Mama in an amaz April 2019

publication devoted to The Special Assembly of the Senate of Bishops for the pen Amazon region the prayer described as a prayer to Mother Earth of the Incan peoples reads patam Mama of these places drink and eat this offering at will so that this Earth may be fruitful Pam Mama good mother be favorable be favorable make that The Oxen walk well and that they not become tired make that the seed Sprout well that nothing bad may happen to it that the cold may not destroy it that it Produce good fruit we ask this from you give

us everything be favorable be favorable um or propitiated might be a translation what what do you say of about that do you say that hey this is idolatry or can you explain it what I would say is when people of white European background try and Pander to indigenous cultures it never goes well that's what I would say I I think I think you're right about that but you see why some people are so Confused right because they're saying this going on Pope is calling it patcha Mama this other guy is saying it's you know Mother

Earth and now they're saying be propitious drink and eat this offering like what are we sacrificing to some demon god here and again again um the Italian Bishop's conference put that together and right then and there there's a problem because they're talking about an Inc in prayer Incans have nothing to do with the Amazon their geography is all messed up right right I can see why people are confused and again I'm not faulting anyone for being confused and I'm not faulting anyone for being concerned uh could this have been handled better absolutely it could have

been could have been handled much much better than it was all I'm saying and this is my sole point is that from where I'm sitting the preponderance of evidence is this was not an act of idolatry no one was Worshiping an ancient Incan goddess named patcham Mama the pope was not worshiping an Incan goddess um that's my point now was the event vague and confusing to the outside world absolutely it was uh I don't fault anyone for being confused but I think we need to stick to the truth here and the truth is that there's

no reason to believe this was an act of idolatry now let me show you something Else on the screen get your thoughts on this because this was from kind of like a followup ceremony they wanted to bring um they brought this into St Peter's Basilica um I don't really know a whole lot about this ceremony but people felt like okay the pope defiled you know the center of Catholicism with this image once again we're seeing objects that represent the Amazon and its people that's all that it is uh so you see the boat right boat

is Very important in their culture because their life centers around the Amazon River that's how they travel that's why when they showed up they sang a folk song about traveling on a river that's how they get around so you see the boat you see various things uh and the statue is just one of the items on the boat again these are things that represent the people and the culture they're praying for yeah that's helpful um you know that that's pretty much all of the Questions that I had um and the things that I noticed that

other people had concerns about but I want to give y'all an opportunity to ask questions so go ahead and put them in the chat make sure to put them to at reason in theology we'll do our best to engage those if you have a few minutes and I want to be clear also that I'm not a Pope Francis apologist in the sense that my interest is in promoting truth promoting being followers of Christ that's my sole Interest if somebody can prove to me that this was an actual intentional Act of idolatry that these people were

there praying to a pagan goddess and not to our God if they can prove that to me I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong does idolatry have to be something that's intended or can it be just merely external I mean whenever you pray intention is important right what are you praying towards what are you praying what's who are you directing your Prayers to that's always about intention I'll send chat questions to reason and theology go ahead and put them there um any while we're waiting on those chat questions any concluding remarks anything that we didn't

get a chance to touch on that you wanted to throw in yeah yeah I'm sure I'm gonna get some hate over this I'm kind of expecting it welcome to Wi world yeah yeah that's your that's your world for Sure absolutely another day in the office but you know I'm in good company with with you and the many twitch streamers playing the Harry Potter game right now they're all getting hate as well yeah I remember you you you take the position it's um not Idol I'm sorry not idolatry but it's not evil and there are some

people who believe that Harry Potter is just evil out of score right now there's a Harry Potter video game that came out called Hogwarts Legacy and People are playing it on Twitch and they're getting bullied uh because they people hate JK Rowling for her belief that a man can't magically turn into a woman this is from Marie this is so helpful I originally thought that idolatry had happened well I'm glad to hear that um okay so let's see here do you think there's a little eurocentrism involved in Trad criticism of this not intentional racism per

se but a misunderstanding of anything indigenous I think any any culture has a tendency to view things that are foreign as being suspicious yeah so you see something you're not familiar with people are suspicious that's just what happens I from Full Metal he says I have questions um I just want or I don't have questions I just want to say God bless you father Deacon this really helps me well thank you that made me a day um is it okay if I embedded this video on where pidor is Mike Lewis says I have No problem

with that what about you father Deacon oh please please do please do okay yep you got our permission um Jimmy Aken likes Harry Potter lots of TR stop listening hell yeah well according to one of the trolls who called in on one of the shows um Jimmy Aken is also evidently according to the troll a heretic because he believes that aliens could exist the heresy oh my gosh the heresy And you know how it's heresy according to the troll he tied it into Caledon you know because really because Christ is incarnated here into humanity and

he somehow wants to say in a parallel universe and this and that he's not incarnated so there's heresy here I don't know how we go from Aliens to parallel universe i' have to go back and listen to it but it was a really interesting argument but yeah yeah okay I I sent that to Jimmy and and he Laughed yeah yeah we both enjoyed it we all pray for Jimmy Soul uh let's see what else we got in the chat um Roa says thank you and God bless you both very insightful and very helpful uh Tyler

says uh just want to thank you guys for all your work my priest and I sent the paperwork over and I hopefully should be officially visiting Ukrainian Catholics soon awesome welcome welcome yeah uh thank you so much for your guest so honest Refreshing every Catholic could be accused of idolatry you would think we might know better by now look I look I I personally have fault in this again at at the time when I originally saw this I thought that this was idolatry um and I can't fault you for that because anyone who saw it

without context would think that yeah and and when somebody pointed out the context of the audio saying well no they're they're saying it's our of the Amazon I'm like okay well I do need To consider that but then he calls it P mama and then this and that and then it's neither sacred nor profane and so got to work through those kinds of things um so I get why somebody would be very confused here uh okay here's a good one from Thomas when does assimilating culture become transgressive or sinful in worship prayer rights and so

on I'd say when it compromises the faith okay so it's one thing to assimilate culture and to christianize it It's another thing to take in an aspect of the culture which is completely in opposition to Christianity and try and water down Christianity to accommodate it that's when it's the problem some people want clarification about venerating an icon of an object can Deacon elaborate well okay it's hard to explain this if you're not from an Eastern Christian context because in the west you know They have statues and they venerate them but veneration plays a much more

active role in Eastern Christian spirituality with all the icons and whatnot but the idea is that we venerate that which ultimately brings us back to God things that reflect God like the Saints but also it is possible to venerate objects that also reflect God or reflect the Saints even I mean we venerate relics right yeah um this one is from Teresa I've never seen a naked image of Mary The Blessed Mother would that not be sacrilegious might you might not be familiar then with medieval paintings of the Virgin Mary which I personally criticize the the

Prudence of some of those pictures but that's my personal opinion and and I take more fault with those than I would of a indigenous image of a naked Mary simply because people like to have Mary and Jesus reflect their culture right so they make images of Mary and Jesus in the likeness of Themselves in many indigenous cultures women were typically topess most of the time it was not seen as a sexual thing at all so creating an image of a topless Mary who looked like them if that happened they can't be faulted for that that

being said I want to remind everybody that this is not really an image of Mary per se this is a piece of art created by a local artist in the past decade or so to those who argue the name p mama is inherently a problem Because it has been woried as a deity could we argue there are names such as Dionysus that come from paganism oh yes as a matter of fact if you look at most of the Saints their names were originally Pagan names at one point yeah uh your guest should be doing Vatican

PR I I think that there was a missed opportunity here um at this time to really give a levelheaded presentation of the situation on part of the vast Majority of people yes I think so I I think this was really a missed opportunity and from what I read about the Senate I was following the Senate I was going on for many reasons as you know there was a lot of buildup to the Senate that was very very negative and when the senard itself actually was taking place from what I've read the people actively involved in

the senard weren't even aware of the controversy um it wasn't on their radar At all and then when they became aware of what a controversy was they were kind of surprised by it by then the story had really exploded um but they should have taken the opportunity then or sooner to really explain what happened yeah yeah I I I think that there's some legitimate CR critic ISM that they butchered that when it comes to explaining what happened again because we got multiple things you have our lady of the Amazon Pam Mama neither sacred nor profane

what Are people supposed to believe um okay so here's one for you was the prostration of the people before these statues an appropriate form of veneration is there line a line in terms of prayer posture right so in their minds they weren't prostrated before all those items in front of them they're prostrating to God um those things just happened to be there they just happened to be there because they were in a Circle praying for their people praying for the Amazon those objects represented what they were praying for but they were praying to God you

saw that before the prostration they're facing towards God after the prostration they were facing towards God the prostration was just a punctuation of their prayer which again you find in many cultures now do we not also in the Byzantine tradition prostrate before I with the Virgin Mary have you ever seen I've seen it happen I've seen it it would not you say that's wrong would you say I would not okay I would not um because prostration doesn't necessarily imply worship now here's another one it seems like Rome isn't very concerned about clarifying things for American

TR I I agree I agree I think they could have done a better job but did he not in the apostolic exhortation explicitly condemn idolatry in it um I I it's been a while Since I've read it but I believe he talks about a healthy incorporation of culture healthy inculturation but he also draws the line in idolatry I'm pretty sure that's pretty clear in the document but it's been a long time since I've read it so I can't say for sure here it is well here's at least one part I should say I'm not saying

that this is everything that he said on the matter um it is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way without necessarily Considering it as idolatry so it's very clear he's not condoning idolatry but this this concept this principle is actually very very Catholic it's a a principle that you see going back at least to Gregory the Great yes he he talks about instances where you know people write to him I think he's writing to Augustine of Canterbury if I'm not mistaken um but he's writing to people and they're asking him what do

we Do with these Pagan samples you know um and he basically says look strip them of all of the idols uh and you know pray over the place and then you start saying mask there like you don't have to destroy the Pagan Temple you can you can pray Mass there you can turn it into a Catholic Church there's a long tradition in Christianity of taking Pagan things and christianizing them very long Tradition now here's one question that I have I I I don't necessarily have an Answer to it so I'm curious to get your thought

could Catholics according to that principle take an image of I don't know some Pagan goddess and appropriate it to the Virgin Mary is that possible or is that impossible you know it's very possible it's already happened in the past um I wouldn't recommend it right but it's not unheard of for people who are new to Christianity to relate Mary Jesus to things they already know and are familiar with but it would be Incredibly imprudent at the very least I wouldn't recommend it no but yeah it's probably happened historically I'd be surprised if it didn't happen

uh let's see wrapping it up here checking the chat um uh let's see some of these are repeat before I forget to there's one more thing I wanted to address I forgot to mention this yeah so earlier when I showed the video you saw there are many different things on the blanket right There's another object on the blanket that got a lot of attention a whole lot of attention there's a a statue of a man laying on the blanket did you see that um I did not there was a statue of a man lying on

the blanket um do I have it I don't um maybe I do um no I don't think I have it on me at least not a good picture of it okay so this was a um maybe I can find it hold on a second I may have it actually if I have it how do I share it um you just Put it on that screen that you have you were using for the video and I'll add it to the screen okay I think I can pull it up just give me one second because I I

I have some screen caps that I took for this this presentation let me see if I can find it um somebody's asking the Vatican released a coin with a mother earth figure on this was this not related I don't know about the coin but we did address the mother earth issue earlier so maybe maybe go and listen to That part um can if it's not too much to ask can father Deacon describe the act of veneration that's a good question okay I have an image here I'm going to um let me know when you want

me to add it to the screen okay so let me just pull it up right now I see the pile of dirt on that video the pile of dirt I see place to put slides um where to go there all right I tell you what go ahead and um Discontinue sharing your screen okay um share screen and then what do I do uh let's see right now I see the V ceremony okay I want to so put the image on that video maybe you can pause the all right I see a candle in a coconut

or something yeah that's that's is that you doing that or that the video that's the video that you're playing well here it is there there it is there There there how do I pause it okay just hit pause on the video it won't let me pause ah um there we go there you go okay there there it is right there where bottom left do you see an image of a man a statue of a man lying there in the blanket bottom left or oh okay I see it right next to is my mouse visible on

the screen uh I don't see your mouse but I see what you're referring to so it's on the left of the screen on the left there's this got a lot of attention as Well in some circles there was a statue of a man and the report was um he was very phallic mhm do you see what I'm talking about yeah I see and that got a lot of attention that they had a um a statue with Viagra that they brought with them it turns out that's his arm it depends on the angle you look at

the picture from got it from another angle it's clearly his arm got it got it I remember that yeah and I remember Somebody had kind of conclusively shown that at the time that no that's not what it was it was arm yeah as well so I want to clear that up while I'm at it that's a good point um weren't there elements of Our Lady of Guadalupe's dress that were pagan origin or am I remembering that wrong you are correct on that do you have any comments on that I just recall that the symbolism in

it spoke to the people of that region in that time period but nothing Inherently evil or anything like just things that can be appropriated things that were Pagan in origin but not inherently anti-christian in any way again what I said earlier we have to remember for most people throughout most of History culture and religion are one in the same it's hard to really separate them completely do you think that there was an element of evil suspicion going on here just to uh again recap it's it's that kind of hermeneutic of Suspicion I Would say the

hermeneutic of Suspicion was an overdrive and I think there are people who are already angry with Francis who are looking to discredit the senate for whatever reason maybe for good reasons even they would to discredit it yeah but they saw this as something that fit The Narrative of fris the heretic and haven't you noticed that people have hung their hat on this and they've used it to justify every kind of you know schismatic angle and comment About Pope Francis oh my gosh yes and and you know it keeps coming up again and again I remember

last year uh worldwide we were doing a consecration of Russia and Ukraine to Our Lady remember this and the prayer that they used for the consecration actually part of it came from the Byzantine tradition and part of it is imagery talking about Mary connecting Mary with the land marry with the Earth you find that in some Byzantine hymns and people Were saying that Pope Francis was consecrating Russia and Ukraine to patcham Mama yeah I think Taylor Marshall had proposed that at one point there were multiple people claiming that it was a consecration to patam Mama

and really it was a traditional Byzantine image right yeah they keep bringing this up over and over again and and then they realized that and had to retrace their steps and right what I want to say is though there's something wrong okay if You are a a devouted and faithful Catholic and you want to believe that the pope is an idolator take a hard look at yourself yeah I think that's fair to say I think that's a good point yeah I've had people get angry when I tell them the pope is not an idolator they

get they actually get mad when you tell them that um because they have to admit that they could have been wrong perhaps they could have engaged in serious engrave sin by Either internally harboring um you know sinful views or even publicly expressing them I had some good friends people I'm still friends with people I love and respect who are upset with me for questioning the idolatry narrative you're upset that I was questioning it yeah yeah I I see that a lot I get it every time I mentioned the Our Lady of the Amazon point from

the Amazon Senate I get that every single time um but what I noticed from that crowd is They don't really engage in any kind of really indepth responses it's just an emotional response well Pope Francis called it PCH Mama as if that's a slam dunk and there's no kind of response that could be offered to that that's usually where they go to is with that yes and and then they try and put the burden of proof on me to prove it wasn't idolatry um so you the pope is an idolator unless proven innocent um that's

not how it works Yeah well uh looks like I got everything um uh from the chat that was relevant any concluding comments you wanted to offer before we kill the stream and I want to say this um I'm not a Pope Francis apologist personally I have a lot of respect for him but no one is perfect and he makes mistakes we all make mistakes I think he'd be the first to admit that he makes mistakes from time to time and being critical of what he does as the Holy Father is legit Nothing wrong with that

but I would say that any criticism we level at him or anyone else we need to be certain that it's grounded in truth and we need to approach things with a hermeneutic of Charity rather than one of Suspicion we need to give them the best possible interpretation rather than jumping to the worst possible conclusion well said father Deacon thank you so much for coming on and doing this and clarifying this for us oh thank you Michael like I Said I really appreciate talking about this because for about two years no one would listen to me

I can only imagine I'm going to have you back on we're going to talk about John Paul II and specifically a cc that'd be great I I want definitely want to engage that one because that's that's the that's the OG version of the Pama C there still are people who are harping on that after all these years I still see websites going berserk over that okay so we're we're Going to do that y'all stay tuned for that we'll have a date on it soon once again thank you so much for coming on everybody hit that

like button and the Subscribe button also share this on your social media with people that you see are bringing this accusation against Pope Francis if you see people bringing up the accusation against him or any others saying that the Pope the Vatican it's idolatry please share this with them at the very least they can have an Opportunity to inform themselves before they continue to uh spread that information so all right that's going to do it we'll see you later God bless hey welcome back to the Michael Lofton show here on reason and theology I want

to offer a presentation on how this PCH Mama Scandal really came about in the news um the presentation that I'm offering is called patcha Mama Worship in the Vatican an artificial Scandal where I want to demonstrate that this Was just that it was an artificial Scandal created by news um and so I'm going to document this at length let me go ahead and start by sharing my um presentation here oh but let let me say this one of the reasons why I'm doing this is oddly enough even though you know I've already done multiple shows

kind of demonstrating that this whole thing was uh made up and poking holes in the narrative I still Continue to get to this day for the year 2023 the number one comment that I get from people in the comment section is but what about Pam mama you know anything that I say vindicating the Catholic magisterium or poking holes in the narrative every single time the response is but what about pcha Mama um so I think it's important that we kind of look through the history of how this developed um in the news um so I

want to go ahead and share my screen And let's dive in because we um have a lot of ground to cover here okay there we go all right let's see let me actually do it this way there we go all right pamama Worship in the Vatican an artificial Scandal let me give you an outline the leadup before the Senate we're going to take a look at that uh the Vatican Garden ceremony itself which was October 4th 201 19 this Is the event that a lot of people want to say was the moment where uh the

pope or Pam mama was worshiped uh in the Vatican um the Vatican Garden ceremony in the media we're going to uh take a look at that as well and then unofficial Vatican explanations about the image and the ceremony we're going to take a look at the image thrown into the hyber in that whole situation uh after that we will take a look at Pope francis's comments on the situation and by the way I will have this PowerPoint available at reason theology. comom as soon as this this stream is done I'll create an article with the

PowerPoint embedded in it so if you want to take a look at the um outline and presentation and even go to the hyperlinks in it um you're welcome to do so so yes it will be available okay all right um and then also we're going to take a look at the prayer from the missio foundation controversial prayer uh condemnations of Vatican idolatry by various uh Catholic figures uh we're going to talk a little bit about Taylor Marshall's involvement as well and then I'm going to give you a summary in a conclusion after that okay let

me give you one brief caveat however this is not an exhaustive treatment of the Vatican Garden ceremony in the news either secular or ecclesial it's not exhaustive because frankly I don't know if it's humanly possible to document every single article uh that Was made about it but I'll try to give the highlights and overall Trends uh the best that I could tell I certainly welcome any corrections uh from anyone so if there's any misinformation or misunderstandings on my part I'm welcome to uh correct you know I'm willing to correct cor those and I welcome your

Corrections in the comment section okay so let's talk about the leadup before the Senate before the Senate on the Amazon which again coincided with this Whole uh ceremony that is in question in relation to whether or not pamaba was worshiped the ceremony was just two days before the uh Senate took place the senate in Rome on the Amazon there had been a lot of things going on uh in the leadup I mean as you probably can tell by now every single Senate we have there's a whole bunch of Catholic media coverage prior to that saying

hey get ready they're they're going to introduce women priests they're going to bless get Unions they're gonna teach this and that heresy this and that paganism and you have that every single Senate you know the Catholic media is just throwing all these claims out there well that was also the case in 2016 as I will briefly uh demonstrate here um as early as June 18th uh 2019 some were accusing the Senate of serving neopaganism now remember again the ceremony itself October 4th 2019 so already in June and This isn't the first instance but already we're

seeing claims that hey these guys in the Senate they're they're promoting some form of paganism ISM okay so that's already in the air that everyone is breathing prior to this whole situation uh here's one quote the working document for the upcoming Senate of Bishops on the Amazon region represents a total opening of the gates of the magisterium to Indian Theology and Eco theology which includes clearly Pagan and pantheistic elements of belief a Chilean author said uh Jose Antonio Etta of the pleno Korea de Oliva Institute part of the tradition family and property movement you'll recall

this is the same movement that was also circulating um propaganda very recently prior to this current Senate the Senate of Bishops um founded by the aonomus Catholic thinker said the new document opens the church up to these two Ideologies which are two Latin American deriv of Liberation theology this is something that you can find on inward Penton uh website okay so we're already seeing claims of neopaganism that's in the air September 5th 2019 again still prior to the event lifesite news um accused the Senate of heresy there's a little typo there I'll need to fix

that not was accused but accused the Senate of heresy it notes how The Condemned heresy of Modernism has infiltrated the Amazon Senate that's the name of the article that they discussed okay so we're hearing accusations of heresy uh paganism on September 12th 2019 Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider now I mentioned Cardinal Burke note I put 2016 dubia and 2023 dubia I mentioned this because Cardinal Burke prior to the Senate on the Family had this whole controversy that was Created in the media with his dubia there was that whole controversy that was created due to him

releasing that dubia before Pope Francis even received the dubia um then again during this Senate the Senate of the Amazon there was Cardinal Burke right there stirring things up uh saying hey be careful there's heresy here as we'll see in a moment and then also again most recently with the current senate senate On uh the Senate on cidality once again drops another dubia two days before the Senate creating a massive controversy a massive Scandal artificially created in relation to uh blessing homosexual unions so we see a pattern here with some of these guys they're involved

with every one of these senates right around the time of the Senate they derail it with all kinds of Shenanigans in the news Okay so Cardinal Burke um and also Bishop Schneider who was again the Signer of the 2022 document accusing the papal magisterium of teaching heresy in desert Ariel deser aravi uh so problematic figure um as early as 2019 both of them announce a Crusade of prayer against the heresies of the Amazonian Senate that the Senate hasn't even started yet but they're announcing prayers against the heresies of it uh because because of its working

document Cardinal Raymond Burke and Bishop aan Schneider have issued an eight-page Declaration warning against six serious theological errors and heresies they say are contained in the Amazonian Senate working document and calling for prayer and fasting to prevent them from being approved okay so we see that as well uh let's continue here on October 4th 2019 so now this is the day of the ceremony dday okay on that day you have various Catholic content creators and media figures gathered in Rome for a conference call Our church reformed or deformed it included Michael Voris John Henry Weston

from lifesite news Michael Matt from The Remnant Taylor Marshall and others gathered at this conference and at the conference they were sounding the alarm against Pope Francis and the Senate Voris even called for the pope to resign others were uh just you know very very concerned about what is taking place in the Catholic church so you have people already meeting in Rome media Figures who are expecting something anticipating something worried about something and in fact I have a link to the full video you're welcome to go and watch it at your own uh Leisure okay

still more on the leadup on September 28th 2019 various priests gather near Castell s Angelo with the intention of expelling diabolical influence from the Vatican especially in view of the Amazon Senate Le also gathered to pray the rosary for The same intention John Henry Weston and Michael Matt were in attendance so you have a whole bunch of Lady gathered right there in Rome praying the rosary of against the heresies of the Amazon Senate and you even have some priests there gathering together to uh not only pray against it but he they are also doing exorcisms

against the Vatican in view of the Amazon CED uh again all of this is in the Atmosphere prior to to the event so this is the climate now here's a quote from uh What uh lifesight news posted on this it's funny how uh they they always create these little protests and Gatherings and Rosary rallies and then document it and promote it all over okay so here we go standing at the foot of Castell s Angelo on the eve of the lurgical Feast of St Michael the Archangel the international L Coalition launched an appeal to the

angels against The evil spirit ahead of the Amazonian Senate being held at the Vatican October 6th to the 27th lifesite has learned that another Act of spiritual warfare was taking place in Rome contemporaneously with the uh I I don't know the name of that organization so how to pronounce it properly at the 3:30 p.m. priest Pro privately prayed Pope Leo the 13th's prayer of exorcism the longer prayer to St Michael in a church near Castell Sant Angelo with the Intention of expelling the Diabolical influence from the Vatican especially in view of the Amazon CED again

this is the climate this is what's in the air they're ready for something they're praying against the Demonic they're anticipating something really bad okay also leading up you have Cardinal Walter Bram again signer of the 2016 dubia in that whole Fiasco uh currently at this time with this inate also stirring stirring the pot and by the way he's also one of the 2023 dubia signers with that whole Fiasco again we're seeing a pattern here with specifically Cardinal Mueller Cardinal Bram Mueller and also Cardinal Burke with every Senate derailing it and stirring the pot okay now

he notes this the Preparatory documents for the Senate have drawn both controversy and criticism from Cardinals and Bishops of The Catholic Church German Cardinal Walter Bram Mueller openly saying it contains heresy and approaches apostasy so the working document of the Amazon Senate contains heresy and it's approaching a apostasy again this is all in the climate Okay so now whenever you have this thing up here in a climate where everybody is concerned about paganism heresy apostasy the work of the devil here we go let's talk about the Vatican Garden ceremony itself on October 4th 2019 the

Vatican held a ceremony for St Francis two days before the Amazon Senate began now note that it's two days before the beginning of the Senate because I just have to throw out and point out that it was also two days before the Senate on cidality that Cardinal Burke and others dropped their uh most recent dubia uh controversy just pointing that one out that that was also literally two days before this that's Ined uh again I think we're seeing a pattern here in this ceremony it honored Our Lady of the Amazon the actual ceremony itself calls

the image here nestra senora deia and you can see that in this video at the 13 minute 27 timestamp I have shown it so many times on this video that I'm not going to go through it again uh that's established fact in fact nobody at this point actually disputes That the video and the ceremony itself calls it Our Lady of the Amazon you know Friend or Foe critic or not everybody already agrees yeah okay at the ceremony they call it our lady of the Amazon so that point is really uncontested at this point uh at

the time however that was often overlooked okay uh but I do have a link to it and again refer you to the timestamp okay all right now uh father Deacon dran I after the fact way after The fact several years after the fact um did a video where father Deacon drani went over the ceremony in detail step by step a whole playby playay analysis of the ceremony we show you the whole video we pause the video at each step and we explain it to you who this person is what they're doing are they Catholic what

this ceremony is what this chant is what this song is what this symbolism means and so on we do all of that so I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here I've already shown this over five times on my channel so I'm not going to make y'all sit through it again I'll just refer you to the video if you have not seen it already it's called the truth about the Pam Mama Vatican ceremony there's the thumbnail to it there's a link to it uh you're welcome to go and watch it in fact I think it's

crucial that you watch it in conjunction with this video because it establishes conclusively the participants were all Catholic none of the songs were Pagan none of the prayers were Pagan all of the gestures were catholic there was no specific veneration to the image in question the image was identified as our lady of the Amazon during the ceremony and it was placed next to another image that represented Elizabeth which is again the visitation in the gospels and also we established there were other things in the circle uh along With the Virgin Mary and Elizabeth including an

image depicting Christian Martyrs so there was all kinds of stuff there um okay now one of the first reports that we see about this on the day of the ceremony October 4th 2019 so the day of the ceremony dday we're getting news reports CNA notes the Vatican was not involved in the organization of the ceremony that's important take take note of that the ceremony was not organized By the Vatican it was organized by uh other groups out there um but it was not them uh repam I believe was one of the groups but it wasn't

the Vatican specifically it notes a representative from the Vatican dicastri for promoting integral human development said after the event that the dicastri officials were invited to attend the event but neither organized nor promoted It now CNA notes the image reportedly represents the Virgin Mary notice the word there reportedly um but in fact it's not just reportedly it was in the video itself at the 13 minute 27 timestamp so there should have been no reportedly here it should have been very clearly promoted or explained by CNA that the ceremony itself calls it Our Lady of the

Amazon already we're fumbling here in the News right at the out of the gate reportedly represents the Virgin Mary but then it notes participants sang and held hands while dancing in a circle around the images and a dance resembling the Pago alaer a traditional offering the mother earth common among indigenous people in some parts of South America no explanation was provided by the event organizers as why the dance was performed for the Feast of St Francis or what it symbolized now notice here they're just throwing out the claim that it resembles this offering to Mother

Earth and of course everybody's going to read that as okay well there's this Pagan ceremony that is taking place in the Vatican you know no no no evidence for this it's just throwing out that hey it resembles this thing uh so again note CNA made this claim without offering any evidence and Then I will encourage you to compare the Vatican ceremony with a real Pago alaer uh ceremony that I have uh right here I have a link to it you can check it out whenever I post the PowerPoint and go and watch it for yourself

it is a ceremony to pcha Mama and you can compare that to the ceremony itself which I also have Linked In the PowerPoint so the Vatican G ceremony versus the real thing go and compare them and you'll see it's not the same Thing and it doesn't even resemble it um if we're going to talk about resemblance okay well you have humans there uhhuh yeah you have humans in the in the Catholic ceremony and you have C uh um humans in the Pagan ceremony oh well there's a resemblance there uhhuh okay they're using human language uh-huh

yeah both of them do that both in the Catholic ceremony and in this other alleged Pagan ceremony right they're they both use human Language you know and so the similarities that you find are the kind of similarities that you will just find in pretty much anything but I think it's going to be a hard cell to actually say this um Pagan ceremony was actually taking place there in the Vatican when you go and compare them and contrast them okay uh but again this is a subjective claim that they're making here no evidence and by the

way I want to point out this paragraph here Participants Sayang in held hands while dancing in a circle that paragraph we're going to see reported immediately um uh right around the same time by National Catholic register literally kind of a copy and paste thing they say the same thing so on the same day around the same time National Catholic register says the ceremony resembled a Pago alaer offering to Mother Earth with exact quote there there you go participants Sang and held hands while dancing in a circle around the images the dance resembled of Pago alaer

a traditional offering to Mother Earth common among indigenous peoples in some parts of South America no explanation was provided by the event organizers asked why the dance was performed for the Feast of St Francis or what it symbolized I don't know why it's literally a copy and paste of the exact same thing that um we saw there from CNA But that's what it is there's a link to it and again note uh the CNA report and also the National Catholic register reports um have not only the same thing but provide no real evidence for that

claim so already we're getting reports at the outset that this is some form of a pagan ceremony now Pedro Gabriel from where Peter is notes on October 4th 2019 a photo by Getty Images of Pope Francis at the Ceremony describes him in front of quote patcha Mama this is where it seems we get the first example or the first instance possibly I don't know if it's the first it seems to be but it appears this is the first time it's referred to as Pam Mama right here um uh let's see Pope Francis and cardinal uh

humis uh Humes Archbishop ameritus of salth Pao president of pen Amazonian ecclesial Network rep him they're the ones again who put the thing on stand in Front of a statue representing pcha Mama Mother Earth as they celebrate the Feast of St Francis of Ace is this the first instance I don't know that for a fact but it appears this is the first time that the image is called pamam now this is obviously a secular source this is not a Christian Source this is a secular Source getting images is that where most people got this claim

of PCH mama from I don't know but that is definitely a Possibility um now of course there's no evidence provided for this claim by Getty Images it just throws out that it is p mama that's it no arguments no evidence it's just throwing it out as if it's a a matter of fact uh despite the fact that the ceremony itself says it's our lady in the Amazon okay now on October 4th again same day the set of a contest website novice or watch claims the Vatican Garden ceremony was the worship of patam Mama so now

you have Getty Images saying it's patam mama and now this set of a contest website comes out the day of and says it's p mama no evidence provided is just kind of thrown out there after declaring that God desires the diversity of religions of strong men that all religions always look toward heaven and God and that religious differences are necessary the apostate Jesuit from buenos Iris Jorge bolio AKA Pope Francis has now hosted a syncretistic Religious ceremony in the Vatican Gardens that include beside Christian prayers the Pagan worship of patcha Mama the Earth fertility goddess

also known as Mother Earth or Gaia adored by the Incas which is a little weird because the territory of the Incas is obviously not the same as Amazon so yeah some have rightly pointed out that yeah our geography is kind of off here uh how are we claiming that this Pagan goddess of the Incas made its way to the Amazon Especially in its form as a pagan goddess doesn't make a whole lot of sense there's that whole conundrum um but yeah there you go novas sordo watch set of a contest website already the day of

making that claim in addition to a secular resource Getty Images okay so on the day of just to recap here the day of the ceremony the ceremony itself says It's Our Lady of the Amazon the Virgin Mary Catholic media starts to say well some are claiming It's Our Lady of the Amazon they're not actually noting that the ceremony itself says that they're just saying some are saying but then they throw into the mix but it kind of looks like this Pagan ceremony so they're already throwing that out there but they're not yet saying it's pamama

that is the Catholic media but secular media with if it at least with Getty Images says patam mama I don't know if There's any other secular resources out there that were saying it as well um but also the set of a context website says pcha mama and again no evidence was provided for the claim by inide of a contest website now around the same time the very next day October 5th you have Michael Voris for church militant spreads the claim that the ceremony was quote Pagan okay so it's kind of already a given now the

next day uh Catholics Kind of feel like hey it's a given this thing was Pagan uh here's a screenshot from him hysteria alert the little statue at the Pagan ceremony who many are tweeting as phallic is not now me and jagani talk about that in the previous video you'll need to go watch it to get more context there that's more beside the point it's the angle of the picture other angles reveal its an arm do not give the lefties any ammo to call you crazy check Your facts first the Ping ceremony is bad enough on

its own well I agree with checking facts but shouldn't we check the facts that it's Pagan because it wasn't so again that's already being just kind of assumed as a given by some the very next day again no evidence was really provided that this was a pagan ceremony it's just again kind of assumed now on October 7th uh I'm sorry that should say 2019 not 2023 I'm just in the habit of Writing 2023 on October 7th 2019 at a Vatican press conference Bishop David uh gania Speaks unofficially now notice this he's speaking at a press

conference about the Senate so it's not even about the pajam mama ceremony three days before but this was just kind of thrown out as a question to him for a press conference related to the Senate itself not the ceremony and he speaks unofficially he even notes that he's speaking Unofficially but he says I wouldn't know how to interpret it that is the the image at the ceremony I wouldn't know how to interpret it we all have our own interpretations the Virgin Mary the Mother Earth probably those who use this symbol demonstrated fertility life I don't

think we need to create any connections with the Virgin Mary or a pagan element now I'll point out a couple things that He doesn't seem to really even be aware of the ceremony self um In fairness to him he is not there to comment on the ceremony he's there to comment on the Senate In fairness to him but since he comments on the matter since it was asked to him he clearly doesn't know that the ceremony itself calls it Our Lady of the Amazon because he's like I don't think we need to create any connections

well excuse me we don't have to the ceremony Itself and the people at the ceremony called it Our Lady of the Amazon we don't have to create anything that's what they said so he's already unfortunately and unintentionally creating confusion and that's unfortunate because somebody who represents the Vatican even though he doesn't represent the Vatican on this particular point when you have that face when you have that image you have to be Clear and if you waver and if you're unsure and if you're unclear and if you don't have your facts straight that's going to create

massive massive ripples all throughout the Catholic World massive problems massive confusion and he's saying look it's neither Mary nor patcha mama he doesn't call it that but he just says or Pagan element it's neither it's it's nothing Pagan nor holy it's just you know a representation of life well again he was wrong about That because again the people at the ceremony said it's our lady the Amazon but confusion was already being created unfortunately by some people in the Vatican who were speaking unofficially now on October 10th 2019 John Henry Weston of lifesite news claims the

image was patcha mama so now you're starting to see uh Catholic media come out and say it's not just a pagan Ritual but it's the Pagan goddess patcha Mama they're just coming out with it and no no evidence is really provided for this it's just kind of thrown out as a given it says that was the sentiment of Bishop David Martinez um and when he mentioned Mother Earth you should know that what he's referring to is exactly a pagan goddess Mother Earth is a translation of the Inca Pam Mama which is as you can read

in Wikipedia a goddess revered by the indigenous people Of the Andes she is known as the Earth time mother in Inca mythology pamama is a fertility goddess who presides over over planting and harvesting embodies the mountains and causes earthquakes she is also an everpresent and independent deity who has her own self-sufficient and creative power to sustain life on this Earth doesn't really address the issue about the fact that Inca isn't the same as Amazon but okay doesn't you know uh Really grapple with the fact that we're basing this on the bishop who is not speaking

officially and clearly himself does he doesn't know what he's talking about cuz he himself doesn't realize that there is a reason to say that this is the Virgin Mary because the ceremony itself does that and instead of really grappling with that we just go with what the bishop said who clearly didn't know what he was talking about and was unofficial and then you hear Mother Earth and you have to tie it okay well Mother Earth's must must mean Pam mama and you know again it was already floating around by some that it was pamama so

it's easy for some people to connect the dots there and say well it's got to be Pam mama no real evidence provided we're just throwing it out there it's kind of assumed at this point now October 10th 2019 the papal posi on ewtn's world Over claimed that the ceremony was the worship of the Goddess pcha mama once again again no real evidence for this it's just assumed as a given but they have a pretty large reach so on October 10th when ewtn's the world over promotes this with you know Raymond a Royo um father Gerald

Murray and uh what's the other guy from the Catholic thing the other guy the papal posi they promote this Claim um and Robert Royal I'm sorry I think that that's his name Robert Royal when they promote that that just goes out everywhere because that's a pretty large reach that the show has and so when they claimed hey this is the goddess patam mama and you have you know idolatry there in the Vatican you know most in the audience they aren't factchecking any of this stuff they're just going with it as if it's a given and

that narrative gained a Stronger hold in the minds of Catholics um let's take a brief look at it uh let's go to the 5 minute 33 second Mark uh briefly now a let me know focal point of yall are having any difficulties hearing the audio okay the ceremony were indigenous amazonians bowing down including a Franciscan before a wooden pregnant woman this statue of a a pregnant woman in fact a pair of them now some said this is the Virgin Mary Our Lady of the Amazon visiting St Elizabeth during one of the press conferences let let

me actually stop right there because as father Deacon Jani and I demonstrated they weren't bowing down to any of the images in the circle that that's something he is assuming here and he needs to actually demonstrate it and in fact evidence is the the contrary so they weren't even bowing down to the image itself there were all kinds of other things in That Circle too Christian mortars and so on so not just the Virgin Mary and Elizabeth but also Christian Martyrs and other items why are we singling it out as if they're venerating this one

particular image however when they weren't um so that was just thrown out as if it was a matter of fact it was also thrown out that you know some are claiming that this is the Virgin Mary but he but he doesn't actually note in the video no it's not this Sumer Claiming it's the Virgin Mary it's that in the video itself they call it our lady of the Amazon at the 13 minute 20 second timestamp uh 27 second Tim stamp it is very clear it is said in Spanish Our Lady of the Amazon as the

image is presented to the Holy Father as I've shown numerous times on this video and really it's a point that is uncontested at this point we all admit yeah okay that's what it says that's what the audio and video shows But notice at the time as this information is going out to the world into the Catholic world they're not being told that information they're just being told hey this thing is Pagan hey this is idolatry in the Vatican some are saying it's the Virgin Mary but it's patcham Mama they're not being given all of the

facts now how many of those people who watch the world over really went and fact checked this stuff probably very few now they then Take that information and spread it to a million other people and they take that information spread it to a million other people and you can see how this narrative would very quickly take root and would be very hard to uproot even when the facts are given let's actually take a look at the 7even minute 21 second Mark where they speak more about this something unique something that we've never seen before on

the Vatican Grounds took place and no one knows what it was and no one is is able to interpret it no one seems to want to take responsibility for how it was organized or who who permitted it and why the pope was there and what it it meant for him to be a witness as this thing was going on right so it's it's a a a tremendous confusion and especially after many people before the Senate even started we're pointing out that the dangers of This kind of syncretism bringing in native elements that don't really Accord

well with Catholicism was going to be confusing and lead us down strange paths I think that the fact that no one can explain this yeah is an additional problem besides the the fact that that something that is not Christianity was celebrated on the grounds of the Vatican itself let's stop there first of all again it's assumed this was non-Christian despite the evidence that The ceremony itself callus it Our Lady of the Amazon and there's nothing pagans that can place there um he is absolutely wrong when he says that nobody has explained that he's also wrong

when he says nobody has explained who organized it that was also explained even CNA on that day of as I've already shown you demonstrated uh who was and wasn't responsible for it um so everything that you just heard from him wasn't true and if anybody fact checked that they would See all of this wasn't true but again unfortunately a lot of people aren't going to fact check that stuff they're just going to go with the misinformation um now take a note at this because you'll you'll you've probably noticed at this point the world over is

guilty of habitually misrepresenting issues in the church uh not giving you all of the facts and in fact distorting the facts most of the time but it gets worse take a look at This father Jerry right Raymond you know that uh go ahead father that no the ceremony was accurately described uh as a pagan religious ceremony and that statue is what's is the goddess false goddess patcham Mama notice he's just throwing it out there as if this is a matter of fact it's Pagan it's idolatrous it's pajam mama no evidence it's just assumed as if

it is fact who is like a creation god um this is horrendous I have to say no matter what The intention of those who invited those people there it's quite clear that that was a pagan ritual ceremony with religious meaning to them is it because in fact it is not quite clear because everything that took place there was Christian and you would have to demonstrate that it was actually Pagan in nature um so again he's assuming his position rather than really demonstrating it again father Deacon Drani and I have already demonstrated what we're what what

I'm saying here and so not going to reinvent the wheel however uh he unfortunately never demonstrated his position uh this should not be ever occur uh in a Catholic Institution certainly not in the Holy sea uh I regret that the pope tolerated it uh now he's claiming that the pope tolerated idolatry it's a massively grave accusation if he is wrong wow you just accuse the pope of Tolerating idolatry in Rome um and I think the message has to be clear paganism is not here in the earth to teach Catholicism it's the other way around Catholicism

is meant to overthrow Pagan false Notions and certainly having a so-called inaugural religious Ceremony this is just interesting in light of the fact that we in Catholicism have all kinds of elements from paganism that we baptize and purified and use for the glory of God and rightly so I mean that's always been the policy for 2,000 years but Protestant fundamentalists often throw this in our face and they'll point out to all sorts of things not only in in our history as Catholics but even frankly you could point to it and also the old Covenant as

I've demonstrated at length on this channel already yeah we have some elements that we took from paganism in the old Covenant and also in the New Covenant nothing that was Inherently idolatrous but things that did derive from Pagan communities we purify them stripped them of any kind of uh evil and um idolatrous intent and meaning and then we use them for the glory of God um that is the constant history of the old Covenant people of God and the Catholic Church there's just no way around that um so I just find it a little interesting

when I hear Catholics talk this way because it's like do you Know anything about history and Catholicism I don't know blessing the sined with uh Pagan fertility there was another statue of a male goddess which was horrendous uh so I but I did you hear that listen to that again Statue of a male goddess which was horrendous a male goddess so he's saying Not only was there the female goddess but he says a male goddess I guess he means a male God I think that's what he means I don't think He affirms transgenderism or that

whole woke movement and all that so I think he means a male God uh be that as it may were there any male Gods present no no the image that he is referring to according to a Franciscan frier who was present was that that was an image of a Christian mortar so yet another instance where we don't have our fact rate we're just throwing out claims that we can't really substantiate uh so I but I reject this Completely I think most Catholics do I think the pope and his kindness sat there and tolerated it but

really whoever organized that imposed on the holy sea a very intolerable thing well it was okay so and you know throwing out the claims but not really substantiating it uh and yeah it was the the same one that people are claiming was a phallic figure that's the image he's referencing it was not a phallic figure as it was demonstrated From multiple camera angles it was an arm not the other part of the human body and then also again it's not a male goddess or a male god um it is a male rep representation of Christian

Mars okay um so again notice none of the claims are substantiated it was just you know thrown out there as if it's a matter of fact they didn't really engage the actual facts uh but you can totally understand how people who are watching ewtn's world Over are getting their information from this and they're going to take it as gospel truth they're not going to fact check it okay now on October 11th 2019 the next day lifesite news ties the patcha mama claim to the Pago ala Tiera claim made previously by National Catholic register and Catholic

news agency it states as a matter of fact that the ceremony was the pagua latier ritual without any evidence it says we know uh we now know a bit More about what happened after the Pagan ceremony of the pagala tier payment to the Earth in the Vatican Gardens under francis's very eyes again it's just thrown out as if this is a matter of fact so the claim that was made on the day of the ceremony has now just taken root as this is fact even though no evidence was ever provided it's just fact This is

Gospel truth you have to accept it another unofficial uh Vatican Explanation I I'll say at the outset the Vatican did very poorly here um and you'll kind of see why uh not only were they not there to answer these questions about the ceremony itself which perhaps they should have been they were there to answer questions about the Senate which is that is understandable but perhaps there should have been a press conference specifically about uh the ceremony given the controversy you'll Find out why that probably didn't happen uh or or probably why that did not happen

let me rephrase it we know it didn't happen but I I think we'll find out why that was uh the case uh as I'll demonstrate here in a little bit but constantly people who represent the Vatican for the Senate even though they don't really know about the ceremony itself and they're there to comment about the sined not the ceremony they're being asked questions about this and so They speak and they speak unofficially um but they fumble their way through it and it's clear every single time they don't know what they're talking about and some of

them even admit hey I don't really know I haven't even seen the ceremony but I'm going to comment on it nonetheless okay uh but actually before we get to that here here's here's somebody who did know what they're talking about it is an unofficial Explanation but here's somebody who did know what they're talking about because they were one of the organizers of the events okay this is October 11th 2019 father Roberto roas one of the event organizers so he is in a position to know says that the image is Our Lady of the amaz on

and is based on a devotion they have to Our Lady he says quote they carved in wood an image of a blessed mother who is Pregnant she is the Virgin and we have called her Our Lady of the Amazon in quote I'll show you the video here in just a second but here's somebody who is in a position to speak it's unofficial but he would be in the no and as an event organizer he clearly notes it is our lady of the Amazon and that's obviously confirms what the audio and video itself in the ceremony

tells us which is Our Lady of the Amazon It's the Virgin Mary watch this let's go to the 15-second timestamp watch the video together uh skip through this here again from one of the event organizers father Roberto roas says this is a devotion that we already had we carved an image of the Blessed Virgin and it's our lady of the Amazon once again that corroborates what We've seen from the ceremony itself okay now continuing to look at the issue in the media however on October 16th 2019 scoic who has uh since unfortunately apostasis and left

and gone to agnosticism and it's you know it's not right but I could totally understand if you believe that the Catholic is worshiping an idol and you believe the Holy Father hates you as a Catholic I could understand why you Would probably leave the Catholic Church um scoic at one Peter 5 accuses the Vatican of idolatry so again you're you're seeing this all over media from exam Fringe groups to Cath you know mainstream Catholic media they're all throwing out the claim it's idolatry it's pcha mama and so on he says a number of Catholic commentators

myself included observed at the time that whatever it was that was happening in the Vatican Gardens which again Should be you know Red Alert you know should be a um a flag here um he's noting that he doesn't really know what it was but whatever it was it looked very much like some sort of pagan idolatry um and of course one Peter 5 uh has many other articles about Pama idolatry after that but that was the first one now here's another unofficial Vatican explanation on October 16th 2019 Dr Paulo rufini again creates more Confusion speaks

unofficially not there to comment on the question but it was asked he doesn't really know and here's what we got at the Vatican press conference um about the Senate he notes strictly in a personal capacity that the image is a statue that represents life that's it and he doesn't really engage the fact that the ceremony itself calls it our lady the Amazon or people who are in Charge with organizing the event say It's Our Lady of the Amazon he just says it represents life that's it he also notes I believe to try to see Pagan

symbols or to see evil it is not so in other words it's not something Pagan it's just a representation of life but not very helpful considering the actual facts now same day October 16th same press conference father uh gako Costa SJ Secretary of Information commission said that image is an indigenous woman who brings life and he notes nobody said it was the Virgin Mary he also says he hasn't seen the image it was very unsure about the matter so this is comical how badly they're butchering It Again In fairness to them they're not there to

answer questions about the ceremony they're there to answer questions about the Senate but they're asked questions about the ceremony Unfortunately they Decided to comment on it not knowing what they're talking about clearly admitting I haven't even seen the thing but nobody said it was a virgin Mary when literally the ceremony itself says it's the Virgin Mary and you would know that if you saw it therefore don't comment on it unfortunately well-intentioned as they may be they created a lot of confusion here okay so it's an indigenous woman who brings life it's not it's not some

Pagan Goddess but also they're undermining the fact that it is the Virgin Mary um now October 21st 2019 the images were stolen and thrown into the Tyber we're going to have more on that later and who organized that how that was done now this can be seen in a video entitled patcha Mama Idols thrown into the Tyber Tyber River I'll just you know ask you to go and watch it at your own Leisure you've most likely seen it Already anyway but it's just an image where they go and steal the it's a video where they

go and steal the images and throw them in the tyer that's it okay here's another unofficial Vatican explanation from once again Dr Paulo rufini October 21st the day that the images were stolen he says we have already repeated several times here that those statues represent life fertility and mother earth oh boy nope drop the ball again [Laughter] they're they're all confused they none of them know what they're talking about here again he's speaking unofficially I I get it but still come on now um and to say mother earth now that's interesting because pcha mama can

refer to either a pagan goddess or just the words pcha and Mama could mean mother earth right uh patcha being Earth Mama being mother and this is why in fact surrounding patam Mama there are different devotions there Are some who see patam Mama as merely a representation of Mother Earth there are others who see patcham Mama as an actual goddess that's the Incan Empire okay so there there is different ways in which people understand P Mama but then you throw out Mother Earth well what are people going to think well they're gonna say see pcha

Mama because you admitted it's Mother Earth and pcha means Earth and Mama means mother and he's still not on the ball Doesn't know what he's talking about doesn't realize the ceremony itself say It's Our Lady of the Amazon Senate organizers I mean event organizers say It's Our Lady of the Amazon and then of course also various volunteers at the Santa Maria in transpontina uh where the image was the images were kept until they were stolen on October 21st some of those volunteers at Santa Maria um noted that the uh image represents mother earth now there

in context if you go and read the actual transcript uh they're referring to Mother Earth that is um Pam Mama representing Mother Earth not Pam Mama the Pagan goddess but they're also creating confusion some of the volunteers here uh some of the other people there saidh could be the Virgin Mary too you know none of them are very Clear on what it is either so they're creating confusion as well um now also note in conjunction with this discussion about Mother Earth and venerating Mother Earth the concept of mother earth and its veneration can be found

in St Francis and his Canticle of the sun he says praise be you my lord through sister mother earth who sustains us and governs us who produces varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs you can Kind of find this tradition of venerating this concept not worshiping Mother Earth but you know appreciating what God does through Earth and giving us life kind of see that and that's how some of these volunteers were understanding uh patcha Mama as just a mere appreciation for mother Earth not for some Pagan goddess now I want to still say you're all

missing the mark because it's supposed to be our lady of the Amon so you're all creating Confusion okay October 23rd 2019 brother aonso Murad who was involved with repam the group involved with the Senate and the Vatican Garden ceremony explains what the image is now this is an unofficial explanation but he gives his account of what he believes it is is this is translated by Pedro Gabriel and there is a link to the actual Facebook video uh at the end of this but it's a pretty long quote so let me go ahead and read it

to you I am brother Alonso Morad And I'm here in Rome at the senate for the Amazon and I want to clarify something that many people in Brazil asked me to address this Monday morning or what seems like it a small group entered in the trans platina church or the carmelites where there have been a series of celebrations about Amazon happening in parallel with the Senate each day there are at least two moments of prayer besides lectures and Expositions in that context there was a series of symbols which were used at this location among them

there were three female silhouettes of an indigenous pregnant woman that symbolize the Earth that takes care of us and also the indigenous people so he wants to say it's a symbol of Earth I want to clarify that contrary to what has been heard in Brazil this is not a religious image so he's basically saying it's not the Virgin Mary it's just a symbol of Earth It was not the object of worship it's simply a symbol of the indigenous peoples it has been labeled as if it were an image of patcha Mama the mother earth the

indigenous peoples do not worship images of Mother Earth as we do with an image of our Lady or the Blessed Sacrament therefore it was simply a religious symbol among many that are present in that church for those who want to see it therefore this was an act of violence of disrespect and Therefore cannot be approved by any of us would you like it if someone went to your church and took any of your religious symbols be it a candle or cloth would you like it of course not therefore we are clearly against this violent act

and we also do not give too much importance to it because what is important is that our eyes our minds and hearts are directed towards the Amazon towards the church the Amazon and for your mission to announce the gospel and A dialogue with the Amazonian people again translated by Pedro Gabriel you can find a video of it there but what are we seeing from this well we're we're seeing more confusion because you have the actual ceremony itself calls it Our Lady of the Amazon one of the organizers calls it Our Lady of the Amazon but

then a guy affiliated with one of the groups of the organizers um says well you know it's just a representation of Life and so some of the people surrounding the issue itself aren't very clear even though the ceremony itself says Our Lady of the Amazon some of the people surrounding it aren't very clear on what it is either now they don't believe that it's a pagan goddess they're clear on that they're clear on what it's not but on what it is is it just a representation of Life indigenous people or the Virgin Mary that's where

you're Going to start to get different answers and so that is part of the problem because they don't have a fixed meaning to it assigned to it at the ceremony there's a fixed meaning but some of the people surrounding involvement with it don't have a fixed meaning on it and that's part of the problem and that also gives rise to why some of the people who are unofficially commenting on it themselves don't really know now on October 25th 2023 Pope Francis cus the image patcha Mama but notes the images were there without idolatrous intentions so

he's saying there's no idolatry here but he calls it patcha mama that's interesting does this confirm um what people have been saying that this is a pagan goddess well couple points here number one in the actual transcript of what he says patam mama is in italic we'll look at what he says here in a Second but number one pamama is in italics and number two you can see immediately after that Vatican spokesman Mato bruny as noted by readers said the Pope used the word as a means to identify the statues because that is the way

they have become known in the Italian media and not as a reference to the godess so Pope Francis used the term patam Mama to refer to the images not because it is a pagan goddess but rather that's just how people are referring to It colloquially in fact I'll be frank with you I still sometimes call it Pam mama when I know it was our lady of the Amazon I still call it that because that's what everybody else calls it that it you know we call the Protestant Rebellion we call it the Protestant Reformation when we

know perfectly well as Catholics that was no reation that was a rebellion that was Schism that was heresy it was no Reformation but we still call it that because that's kind Of what everybody calls it even though it's technically not accurate we still say that the sun rises when we know very well The Sun Ain't Rising okay so um sometimes we're guilty of this as well I think this was a fumble on part of Pope Francis we'll find out why he fumbled here in a moment uh but this was a fumble but you could also

understand partly where it's coming from that's just how people are uh you know calling it and it was again Immediately immediately clarified he's not saying this is a goddess and by the way that's consistent with what he says when he says there was no idolatrous intentions how could you say that if it is if you're admitting that this is a pagan goddess right clearly he's not saying it's the pig and goddess P um so look at the transcript good afternoon I want to say a word about the statute of notice in italic Pama that were

taken from the church of the Transpontina which were there without idolatrous intentions again he could not say that if he's actually saying that this is the Pagan Gess and we're thrown into the Tyber first of all this happened in Rome as the bishop of the dicese I ask pardon of the persons who were offended by this act then I want to communicate to you that the statues which created such ATT tension in the media were retrieved from the Tyber the statues were not damaged the commander Of the carabinieri desires that you should be informed of

this recovery before the news is made public at the moment the news is confidential and the statues are being kept uh in the Commander's office the commander has expressed his desire to follow up on any indications that you would like to give concerning the matter uh manner of publication of the news and any other initiatives he may want to take in this regard for example the Commander said the exhibition of the statues during the Holy Mass for the closing of the Senate we'll see I have delegated the Secretary of State to respond this is a

bit of good news thank you all right uh is it a fumble for him to have called it what most people are calling it at the time yes yes did that do more damage than good Yes that did a lot of damage because you know I mean as soon as he said that everybody said see it's the Pagan goddess even Pope Francis admits it even though he's saying in the context no there's no idolatry so that's clearly nobody saying even though there's a clarification immediately after that by Vatican spokesman no he's just using it because

that is how the media was calling it all that's ignored Pope Francis admitted Vatican idolatry it's a Pagan goddess end of story now here's why I believe Pope Francis fumbled here not only because of the fact that again that's what everybody called it but here here was something interesting from let us dream believe where Peter has pointed this out in an article the 2020 book let us dream Pope Francis recalls quote what was beautiful in that Senate the Deep respect for indigenous culture and the presence of the native People in the prayer services was twisted

by hysterical accusations of paganism and syncretism although we were barely aware of it inside the Senate Hall there was no shortage of disturbances outside now that is telling the pope is basically saying yeah we heard a little bit about the fact that people are making these claims but we didn't realize how bad it was we didn't realize how many people were out there claiming Vatican idolatry patcham Mama idolatry we thought it was a few people out there because we're fixated on what's going on in the Senate Hall with the Senate we didn't realize how severe

the disturbances were outside in the media so when Pope Francis calls it that just because that's what everybody else called it he didn't realize what he just did is he gave rocket launchers to the critics he gave them so much ammunition with That even though for anybody who's fair-minded they would say he's just referring to how it's referred to in the media he's not saying it's an idol that's not how most people took it did Pope Francis fail to appreciate how severe the situation was and how careful he should be with his words yes did

he underappreciate the fact that there needed to be an official clarification from the Vatican yes so were there some failures here From Pope Francis in the Vatican yes however be that as it may whatever failures it has I think we're seeing not all the confusion is coming from the Pope in the Vatican they're maybe not doing enough to address it but not all of it is coming from the Vatican a lot of it is coming from the critics but this was careless another unofficial Vatican explanation again all of these are unofficial the Vatican never offered

an Official explanation which again I think is a criticism on October 25th 2023 four days after the stealing of the images Dr Paulo ruini stated again no prostrations or rituals were performed we must all be rigorous in telling things that have happened in front of the cameras I say once again we are just epically failing here because there were frustrations and I could even say there Were rituals performed during the ceremony but they were catholic rituals and they were prostrations that we have in the Catholic church I mean we have prostrations in the Catholic Church

uh us Eastern Catholics we know that very well unfortunately the Latin West has um forgotten about prostrations but um yeah I mean it's perfectly Catholic uh now there was no prostration to the image itself and even so in the Catholic church and the Eastern Tradition we do prostrate and venerate images of the Blessed Virgin Mary not with a prostration of worship but a prostration of um honor and reverence the difference between uh lria and dulia of course uh but for further exacerbating the situation with more confusion from him uh yeah we we've we really failed

here on that one so it didn't help a whole lot all right so Pedro Gabriel offers a really helpful recap of what We've kind of seen uh you know W with with some of these people with unofficial explanations the native woman that is in the ceremony itself on October 4th 2019 and father the one I showed in a video earlier say It's Our Lady of the Amazon they have not attributed a pagan meaning to the figure Dr rufini from the Vatican dcry of communications said in his first answer to the topic albeit not acting in

His official capacity I believe to try and See Pagan symbols or to see evil it is not before him Bishop David Gia had also been asked about the meaning of the statue and he replied we don't need to create any connections with the Virgin Mary or with a pagan element Father Lopez interviewed by uh San Martin asked if it was part of a pagan ritual the priest offered a flat no brother Alonso Alfonso mured uh is clear that the figure is not a religious image and that it did not receive any Kind of cult so

there's a lot of confusion because they're all saying different things my point however is you need to go to the source itself which is the ceremony itself go to the primary sources not what other people were saying go to the thing itself in the thing itself they call it our lady of the amson that is what really settled it all of this other stuff is confusion and yes some of these other People are responsible for some of that confusion but notice none of these people say it's a pagan patcha Mama Idol none of them say

that none of them believe it's an idol none of them say that there's idolatry taking place now on October 27th 2019 the pope said the following at his Angelus for the way ahead let us invoke the Virgin Mary venerated and loved as Queen of the Amazon she became one and not by Conquering but by enculturating herself with a mother's humble courage she she became the protector of her children the defense of the oppress always going out to the culture of the people there is not a standard culture there is not a pure culture that purifies

the others there is the gospel pure which is inculturated to she who care for Jesus in the Poor House of Nazareth we entrust the poorest children in our common home clearly he is saying hey guys yeah look This isn't a pagan Idol this is the Virgin Mary the Queen of the Amazon and this is the Virgin Mary being enculturated into various cultures now the controversy within missio Foundation uh came up in late October there was a magazine published in April of 2019 so way before the Senate but people dug it up in late October because

of the frenzy of paj Mama um now it the missal foundation is a pastoral body formed by the Italian Bishop's conference that publishes this magazine now again this magazine is not the decisions of the Italian Bishop's conference the Italian Bishop's conference has a pastoral body and then that pastoral body has a magazine and as you can imagine most of the time the Bishops have absolutely nothing to do with any of these things uh because they're busy understandably dealing with a million other things in Their dases and they delegate these things to lady okay well the

magazine in April of 2019 contained a prayer on page page 17 of the magazine which I'll give a link to in this PowerPoint um now it has a prayer to patcha Mama again way before the actual ceremony in April it's not clear whether the magazine was promoting the prayer in the magazine as something for Catholics to pray or it was simply an example of what some in the Andes Believe so it's not clear it they just put a prayer there and so again it's not clear like are are you suggesting that Catholics pray this thing

or are you just saying that this is basically something that people in the region Pray Again it resurfaced October 29th from Catholic culture the best that I can tell uh among others who were panicking at the time and you know found this thing and thought see you know B on idolatry The vatican's corrupt there's a letter or I'm sorry a copy of the magazine and here is a link to the article that you can read about okay so there there was that whole thing too now in 2020 Peruvian Dominican Theologian sister Mila Diaz solanos so

I mean after the fact you know after the ceremony she explains what paja Mama means she says from the perspective of Peruvians Pam mama is not a goddess it is not an idol it expresses a relationship patam Mama outside of any indigenous religion is a kachua expression rooted in two words patcha which means her in Mama which means mother if you ask a shaman who is a religious leader from an indigenous religion in the Amazon or a member of an ancestral religion non-Christian the answer you'll receive is different than Mine so if you ask some

of these other people you know some of these non-christians and shamans you ask them what pajam mama is you're going to get a different answer than what it is for us Christians among indigenous and non-catholic peoples Pam mama is their goddess I.E the and itself so it's a goddess for them what we call Mother Nature as well as the water and other elements of creation pamama has no representation but many pictures uh Represent the relationship between the people in the land so there's all kinds of meanings behind this behind pamama itself depending on who you

ask there's different views for what it is so for some pamama is a goddess for others pamama just represents Mother Earth or relationship or the people or life or fertility it's all over the place what was it in the uh the image in the uh ceremony itself was certainly was A Pam Mama certainly wasn't a p Mama goddess it was our lady of the Amazon another unofficial explanation um I'm sorry I I should I should re re uh redo that title I apologize uh this this should actually be an official I should say official explanation

I'll fix that later on February 2nd 2020 Pope Francis released K Amazonia and noted the following so here's the document that came out of the whole Senate um Here's The final papal document that came this isn't the final document from the Senate you do have their final report this is the final document that he promulgates in his magisterium based on that whole C in its documents quote it is possible to take up an an indigenous symbol in some way without necessarily considering it as idolatry I mean that should be Catholicism 101 I mean so many

of the things in our Liturgy that's what we did I mean it's just truth right there a myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to Advantage and not always considered a pagan error some religion festivals have a sacred meaning and are occasions for Gathering and fraternity albeit in need of a gradual process of purification and maturation this is nothing you new from Pope Francis by the way this is constant Catholic teaching in fact I did a whole video on uh Catholicism and Inculturation a missionary of souls will try to discover the legitimate needs and

concerns that seek an outlet in a Time imperfect partial and mistaken religious expressions and will attempt to respond to them with and cultured spirituality okay but it's clear he's basically putting this in there to say look there's no idolatry we're not in favor of idolatry we're not worshiping some Pagan goddess you can have indigenous Symbols that are not necessarily idolatrous now before we get into the next section here of condemnations of Vatican idolatry Bump by various figures we're going to take a quick break cuz we're about an hour and 20 minutes into this I'm going

to step away give me some more coffee and we'll meet back in about five minutes so uh let's give it just a moment here hey everybody just wanted to tell you about my new free ebook Church chaos Biblical insights for confused Catholics if you are a confused Catholic and you're thinking about leaving the Catholic church or or you're thinking about converting to the church but you see that there's a crisis in the church and you're just unsure this is the book for you again it is free just simply go to reasonand theology. you'll see a

popup that comes up on your screen just simply click on it and you'll put in your email and it Will provide you the free pdf ebook right then and there please check it out if you're confused about the situation in the Catholic church today reasonin theology. are you a Catholic thinking about converting to Eastern Orthodoxy or are you a Protestant Discerning whether or not to become Catholic or Eastern Orthodox if so I have the book just for you it's called answering Orthodoxy and engages all of the arguments that Eastern Orthodox use against the Catholic Church

I respond to all of them I show that they are in air and in fact they're inconsistent because the things that Orthodox are objecting to are in fact found in their own tradition so the fullness of the faith can only be found in the Catholic Church check out the book right now at shop. catholic.com for your copy today all right let's continue here so let's look at condemnations of Vatican Idol idolatry in Catholic media so on November 5th father Mitch Paca claims the ceremony that took place on October 4th was the worship of an idol

this can be seen in a video entitled scripture and tradition with Father Mitch Paca on ecn on his channel on his show there uh you can watch it at your own Leisure but in effect father Paca gives no evidence for the claim of idolatry in The Vatican other than a personal anecdote and fails to engage all the evidence to the country was pretty disappointing on October 26 2019 Bishop Schneider again the very one who signed a document in 2022 condemning the papal magian for teaching heresy compares the Vatican Garden ceremony to the golden calf and

claims it was P Mama idolatry without any evidence or engagement of the facts Is just thrown out there as if this is Gospel truth in the October 26 open letter Bishop Schneider is also calling on all Catholics Bishops priest and lady to offer acts of reparation protest and correction for the use of the patcha mama statues which he calls a new golden calf Bishop Schneider writes syncretism and paganism are like poisons entering the veins of the mystical Body of Christ the church So a lot of people who follow and respect him um are you know

being fed this stuff by Bishop Schneider and you could understand why they are very concerned um moving on to the next one on October 24th an interview with ewtn's Raymond a Royo Cardinal Mueller again who was one of the 2016 dubia uh uh signers as well as the 2023 doia signers again the three very problematic Cardinals that we see stirring up issues every single time Before every single Senate in this pontificate Cardinal Mueller Cardinal Bram Mueller and Cardinal Burke uh and he now comes out and claims the ceremony was idolatrous without any evidence or engagement

of the facts he says the great mistake was to bring the idols into the church not to put them out let me remind you this is the same Cardinal Mueller who recently came out and accused Pope Francis of teaching heresy many Times okay on October 29th Cardinal Bram Mueller again 2016 dubia 2023 dubia claimed the ceremony was idolatrous but he provides no evidence and did not engage the facts just like Cardinal Mueller he says these two courageous macbes the People Who removed the abomination of desolation in the Holy place place are the prophets of today

wow strong language obviously the abomination of the Desolation Harket back to uh The Book of Daniel and also the abomination of desolation that took place in the temple uh in 70 AD okay now December 12th Cardinal Burke States in a hble again Burke 2019 I'm sorry 2016 uh y 2019 uh 2023 each Senate stirring the pot he says this in a homy Satan makes Bold to sew his lies in the seeds of confusion and destruction Also in the church a most shocking manifestation of how Satan has entered into the church was the recent Cult of

the Pagan Idol the patcha mama Mother Earth in the Vatican Gardens and even more grievously before the tomb of St Peter in St Peter's Basilica he also stated it was the most Grievous offense to God the clear an an unconscionable violation of the first commandment in a Hy in a Catholic Church at The Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe during the Liturgy accuses the Vatican of patam Mama worship and idolatry on November 5th 5th 2019 Archbishop vegano the one who has now set of atis a schismatic who has created a schismatic seminary and is now

starting a parallel church as I've shown in multiple videos including the one I did earlier today this uh schismatic says he speaks out against the vatican's alleged idolatry of pajam Mama he notes like Many others including Bishop athanasia Schnider and Professor Roberto De matai I think this young man is a hero in reference to the one who through uh the images into the Tyber the formal papal Nuno turned whistleblower told uh Robert moan and comments made on uh Robert Monahan in comments made on Monday he is a person who wished to defend the first commandment

so he's saying you know the vatican's guilty of idolatry this guy is a uh guy who you know was Not standing for idolatry and defended uh the first commandment and by the way the whole whistleblower yeah what's funny is his uh first letter letter coming out you know accusing the pope and everybody else turns out a lot of that was just fake information fake news false claims and uh so yeah that didn't turn out uh very accurate uh that was posted by church militant on November November 7th 2019 Archbishop vegano called for a Reconsecration of

St Peter's Basilica for the paing idolatrous profanations and he spoke of the abomination of idolatrous Rights has entered the sanctuary of God and has given rise to a new form of apostasy whose seeds which have been active for a long time are growing with renewed Vigor and Effectiveness now let's talk a little bit about Taylor Marshall's involvement in the PCH bom issue Taylor's involvement in throwing the images into The Tyber I documented this at length before uh Trent horn and also um Vatican Catholic but I'm going to show uh Trent Horn's summary of it since

he summarizes uh the issue in about three minutes so let's uh let's watch that little segment and you could see what took place here with his involvement uh let's go to the 39 minute Mark right here let me know if y'all can't hear it by the way I'll just go ahead and um make sure to enable audio here all right Let's go deception and conspiracy that does not mean he is always untrustworthy take Taylor Marshall for example for someone who writes about conspiracies he himself was involved in one related to the 2019 patam Mama incident

at the Vatican in 2019 Marshall interviewed Alexander chugu the Austrian Catholic who threw what everyone was calling the patam mama statue into the Tyber River in that interview Marshall never indicated he was involved in the event Or the creation of the original video at the beginning of the episode he even asks if he pronounced chell's name correctly the whole thing gives off the vibe that Marshall and shil have never met before this interview it gives that vibe off I'm here with Alexander Chell did I say that correctly and Alexander yes yes you did he is

the man you've seen him in the video I mean we saw people come out and rally even though we didn't know your name we didn't know Your face we saw people come out and take a stand and say we Idols in church is a step too far it's interesting that this interview is now unlisted and it's not yeah I remember I pointed this out at the time because I thought wait hold on as soon as the new video uh between him and Alexander came out with the points of discontinuity I tried to go back and

find the original video could not find it and it was because it was unlisted finally somebody sent me a copy Of it and I saw oh wow this is why I couldn't find it it was unlisted I remember I went live at the time and asked the question hey is there a reason why this is unlisted because it does seem a little conspicuous here that the very video that now shows some massive points of discontinuity with what was just uh revealed on Taylor Marshall's live stream that he was not expecting to be revealed uh but

his guest revealed it um now that this shows some massive Points of uh discontinuity uh why is the original video all of a sudden unlisted and people can't go and find it and see these points of discontinuity I asked that question of course Taylor Marshall never responded and gave an explanation not publicly available on Marshall's YouTube page that's probably because in 2020 when Chell was interviewed again on Marshall's podcast after he got covid he inadvertently revealed that he had met Marshall before this first interview in 2019 in fact Marshall planned the whole thing he paid

for chugu to fly to Rome and then Marshall was involved in the creation of the video that was later put on YouTube about this here's what they said everyone knows you as the guy who threw the patcha idols in the river and we we thank you again for doing that that was a great a great moment of of Victory and joy in well nowl isn't now the time to to tell the people a little Bit about about how we were in context I guess perhaps we can uh I wasn't prepared for that but yeah Alexander

and I uh note this he was not expecting for this to happen live on his show Alex already BR it up so he can't be like no don't tell anybody about that because then everybody's G like wait what are you hiding here so he now tells us a very different story and whenever we find out that this story is completely at odds in in several areas with what he Originally said in his interview with Alexander uh we all the sudden started asking questions but the original video was unlisted so we couldn't go back and actually

show hey hold on there's some massive points of discontinuity here because again he unlisted it right at that time had met in Rome before all this uh we we' met before even the poches were out and when we learned about the tree that was planted uh in that Ceremony with the pches we were at dinner and we were discussing how we might go in and rip that tree out of the ground how dare they plant a tree we need to rip that tree out who does this we need to go go rip that tree out

how dare they I could see Taylor over there trying to pull the tree out straining try to pull out the tree truck what why what what did the tree do Why why does it have to suffer punishment because it was planted but anyways yeah now we're we're also noticing a very different story he clearly knew how to pronounce his name they had known each other for over a month and had met and all that yeah there's other points of massive discontinuity which are mutually exclusive like they're diametrically opposed they cannot be harmonized round you worked

out your plan with your Friend and I wired you some money for airfare and you guys flew from Vienna over to Rome and you got it done that's it yes it was a wonderful thing and then and then you sent me the video footage yes and you cut it and I edited the video except in the original video Alexander said he was the one who edited the video but just throwing that out okay footage and then this has never Been told before and then as I just waited until you texted me and said our airplane

is off the ground in Rome we we're free we're out of Rome and then at that point I I uploaded the footage so as I said conspiracies to promote false narrative didn't Alexander say was the one who uploaded it at the airport do happen but that doesn't mean the people involved are always untrustworthy be they the US government or Taylor Marshall not everything Taylor Marshall Or other online traditionalists do is bad I really appreciate the work Marshall once did with the new St Thomas Institute okay all right so you you get a a very quick

summary of it there uh you could see some more details from this video by the diamond brother Brothers which I certainly uh do not recommend uh the vast majority of their of their content um unless you just want some really good entertainment to laugh at um but at the 7 minute 45 second Mark To the 16 minute 32 second Mark at this YouTube link you can see more points of discontinuity brought out I won't rehearse them here since I've already gone over them before um now I do want to briefly cover about six minutes of

this video where tayor MO Marsh looks back on the pcha mama event and his video entitled did Pope Francis watch Taylor Marshall's podcast and restrict the Latin Mass over P mama I thought this was an interesting uh segment from The video so let's take a look at it and you'll see whyi so we're going to go to the 6 Minute 11 second Mark here we go the third episode that's related to all of this is the AA Mama incident I was in Rome I was invited by John Henry Weston of lifesite news with a bunch

of other Catholics most of which were traditional like Roberto De M and uh we had a panel and after that panel was over There was a reception and there were journalists there and they were talking to us and interviewing us and then afterward dinner John Henry Weston at lifesite news showed me his phone of a picture of a garden ritual it's the one you know famously now inside the Vatican Garden where they have planted a now look at that look at that right here Virgin Mary and Elizabeth in addition to many other things in this

circle Three and there's a blanket on the ground with all these tokens and there are two stat notice again a ton of other stuff in there statues that were in the clip that John Henry Weston showed me this was the day it happened and we both were looking at these little statues they're pregnant ladies dark wood pregnant IES with sort of a red embryonic um pre-born child in there and we're like what is that so we're asking around and my memory might be wrong on This there was a lot of people around they're saying that

that is our lady pregnant with our lord Jesus and St Elizabeth pregnant with John the Baptist you remember the second joyful mystery is the visitation of our Lady she's pregnant with Jesus she goes and visits her kinswoman Elizabeth who's pregnant with John the Baptist or someone who clarified and said no it's a symbol of the visitation now wait the symbol um you'll You'll note in the video itself they call it our lady of the Amazon a point that Taylor Marshall often despises whenever he speaks of quote Pope spiners AKA Catholics and um anytime Pope spiners

are brought up it's it's kind of humorous to to watch his videos even the recent ones where he talks about it in fact I think he mentioned it today um anytime the Pam Mama issue is brought up he despises the fact that the the fact of the matter is the ceremony itself Calls it Our Lady of the Amazon and he does not like that because it goes contrary to the narrative that he eventually adopted but he heard early on at the very beginning this was the visitation this was the Virgin Mary um uh but that

point you know that that particular understanding doesn't fit with his narrative and his agenda uh so Watch What Happens now we knew the statues looked sort of strange indigenous but as Catholics like well if That's the interpret and that's like an indigenous representation of that biblical Catholic mystery well then that's fine and that's what it was according to the ceremony itself which he still to this day refuses to accept we did talk about why was there this mother earth ceremony with shamans wait there wasn't a shaman that is a claim that he makes with absolutely

zero evidence she is not a shaman she is a Catholic and there was no Pagan ceremony Here again he assumes the position that he has not actually proven he assumes what he heard in the news but does not actually demonstrate it despite all the evidence to the contrary and uh the planting of the tree and we were discussing that evening how what is that tree dedicated is it dedicated to Christ or is it dedicated to a pagan entity and how would we get rid of that tree out of the valley that tree needs to be

uprooted Gard that was a real discussion but the pamas we didn't even know the word pamama had not yet uh come into our vocabulary that same day I met a young man named Alexander chugo he is a towering Austrian young man he's uh six foot something I like that sword I need that sword in my life I think 6 foot eight I can't recall um I met him and his wife and he made a very good impression on me and we talked for a while he was a convert to Catholicism He was a traditional Latin

mass attender and I think we exchanged information at some point so that's sort of the the origin story of it all shortly after that I flew back to Texas on an airplane and when I got back and my phone came back alive after being up in the air my wife had texted me an image of a woman nursing what looked like a piglet I'm not sure what kind of animal it is to this day but it said in Spanish um something like everything is connected And it was a woman uh using her breast to nurse

a animal and that this image was placed in a church St Mary's across the bridge near Vatican City along with these little statues and I wholeheartedly agree with uh Taylor Marshall at least on the point that this is inappropriate I think it's very inappropriate I think it's in poor taste I think it's also a little odd um don't definitely don't think that it belonged there um I understand what They're trying to say is everything's connected okay I get it but you don't have to visualize it for me um especially in this particular way um and

I understand that the little animal its mother had recently just been killed by the people in the village and when they found out that the the mother's the animal mother that was just killed had a child the lady felt bad and so she uh breastfed the little animal and this is some wonderful little story about how We're all connected and okay come on this is silly so yeah I'm I'm not a fan of this I think it's inappropriate I don't think it belongs there this does not equal pamama idolatry there's a massive leap from that

to uh from this thing here to Pama idolatry but watch the leap that Marshall makes of these women and we learned that they were called the pamama they're dedicated the PCH mama and the Vatican made a Clarification wait who did you hear from who did you hear that it was the pcho mama you heard that from first of all Getty IM and then a set of a contest and then Catholic media started to promote that with no evidence despite the actual facts that the ceremony itself calls it Our Lady of the Amazon so when he

says we learned that it was P according to who who said it was he just jumps on the claim that it's Pam Mama without any reason to believe it and now that Catholics push back on it and say hold on wait wait Taylor hold on now why should I believe that this is p mama oh these pop spers I'm I'm glad that we're getting to him uh let's continue of these women and we learned that they were called the pamama they're dedicated the pamama and the Vatican made a clarification that the P these statues the

pamas were not the Virgin Mary the Vatican did not make That clarification the people who had spoke about the issue were not officially speaking on behalf of the Vatican you see the misinformation here now clearly he didn't check his facts before disseminating this information he just thinks well Vatican spokesman said yeah but they weren't authorized to speak on the issue they were supposed to be speaking on the Senate and even the people themselves admitted they didn't know what they're Talking about and again this is all contrary to the actual facts of what the ceremony itself

said were not Christian Saints they were images of the indigenous deity patam mama who actually no even the uh fumbling representatives there who spoke on uh what it was clearly said it was not anything Pagan but here he's saying no it it was admitted that it's Pagan wait that's not what they Said they said it wasn't anything Pagan was a Mother Earth goddess in South America well when I saw that image and I saw these Pam mamas I immediately began to book a flight back I wanted to go back to Rome and we were going

to remove the Pam mamas now there and rip that tree there's a bunch of other details in the next several days that I cannot I'm not at Liberty to discuss and perhaps one day when Pope Francis dies and goes to his reward I will be able to tell the Entire Saga of what happened in those days huh that's interesting I wonder what he hasn't told us yet because the thing that he didn't tell us before contradicted things that he told us previously so I wonder what else we're going to find out that uh is in

discontinuity with what he told us but anyways okay um let's watch it just a little bit more here but needless to say plans did not work out and I contacted the young fiery Austrian full of faith That I knew and suggested hey if I can get you to Rome can you get the poches out of our Catholic Church they were and rip that tree out actually on the altar in St Mary's across um on the tiger River how dare they have the Virgin Mary on the altar can you just get them out there and we

discussed whether to film it or not and we decided it should be filmed so that people would know that it actually did happen and no one at the Vatican could say it didn't happen or They could say that it was criminals that stole them we wanted it to be very clear that they were removed and why they were removed well it it was an act of theft and and fairness and that we would remain anonymous that was the deal so Alexander and another Catholic man agreed to do that I arranged to get the flights and

they flew into Rome as you know you've seen the famous video the pamas were rounded up these vile Idols Idols again Just assuming it's Pam Mama assuming it's idolatry no actual evidence for this just again he bought into the narrative hookline and sinker uh and continues to disseminate it with no evidence and again contrary to the facts they're Idols read Moses read Jeremiah read Ezekiel read Daniel read the mind of prophets read the book of Revelation sounds like Protestants who will remind Us of all this and say that we shouldn't be having images of the

Virgin Mary or of Jesus or any of that and they'll say read Moses or read Exodus and read this and read that God is opposed to idolatries it's the first commandment in the Ten Commandments you know who agrees with that Pope Francis he has said that over and over and over he agrees idolatry is wrong and the people at the Vatican Garden ceremony did not engage in Idolatry he again just assumes what needs to be proven what really just took place here is Alexander uh in Associates stole some images of the Virgin Mary and threw

it into the Tyber okay congratulations he ran out the pamas he went out um on the bridge above the Tyber right there by uh Castle San Angelo and threw them into the river and that was it that was the story then he sent me the video footage I arranged it I waited until they were wheels up and Flying out of Rome because I did not want none of us wanted them to be detained or arrested in Rome once they were out I released the footage again compare the account that he's giving here compared to what

Alexander initially said in the original interview just just compare the two stories and it was history that was it there was never a desire to make a publicity stunt there was well okay but there doesn't seem to Be a whole lot of desire to fact check things either never a desire to grift there was never a desire to make money off of it it was and I'm telling you this honestly but you did though right I mean donations did come in though right they were sent to Alexander and I imagine some people really appreciated Taylor

for his involvement in the issue uh so I imagine there was some money that was made even if that wasn't the intention and okay but it was certainly Raised um due to a situation that isn't even accurate to begin with this wasn't an idol it was an act of devotion and piety to Jesus Christ but not one a factchecking and sincerity um because if we were sincerely seeking the truth we would have considered the fact that there was no evidence it was P so there is that problem here and I have zero regrets to this

day I would do it again I know Alexander would do it again that's a problem that's that's a problem Because there should be a desire to seek the truth here if we serve the god in truth happened now people would say well why didn't you come clean from day one and say you were involved in it I wanted to remain anonymous I didn't want to take credit for it in fact a lot of time some time passed before that came out and it came out because I was doing an interview with Alexander live on this

YouTube channel and Alexander said it he said he didn't tell Me he was going to do that we didn't plan it I didn't know it was going to happen and we were on the spot live and so I said yeah and he spilled the beans and then we heard a story that was completely uh at odds with what he had originally told us that's the problem was involved in the background of helping make it happen and that's it you never heard me say therefore send me some money or therefore but they did ask for donations

though right uh join on my Patreon Channel or anything like that it's never been that way okay um but they did ask for donations for um Alexander if I recall correctly and and that's fine I mean I you know I assume there's no real intention here of you know they just did this to raise money I don't think that is the intention I could be wrong I can't read their hearts but I'm gonna assume that's not the case I'm going to give them the Judgment of Charity and just say that they thought That they were

doing a good thing here um that's were that's my perspective on it again I could be wrong um but I'll give them the Judgment of Charity but I will point out that there wasn't a sincere pursuit of the truth here because if there was he would know that what he's saying is false because all of the facts and evidence show otherwise okay so let's wrap it up here with the uh coming towards the end of the Presentation um okay now is the image appropriate that is another question that needs to be addressed is this an

appropriate depiction of the Virgin Mary well depends on who you ask you know different cultures different times different places have different depictions of the Virgin Mary some say I think this is inappropriate because she's bare breasted okay we'll take a look at some of these medieval paintings Of the Virgin Mary bear rested this one features um also the Virgin Mary um looks like some milk from her breast is being squirted into the Saint's mouth um the lactation of St Bernard now people at the time I'm sure didn't see that as inappropriate um in fact Saints

didn't see it as inap appropriate at the time I imagine people today probably at least in America I don't know I can't speak for everybody who's watching here but I imagine some people feel a little Uncomfortable with some of these images so again it's going to be based on you know culture Place time period you know setting what is an appropriate depiction of the Virgin Mary what is not you know there there's different views here right and and so if you say I think it's inappropriate the the fact that she was Bea okay but just

keep keep that in mind with some of the medieval paintings as as well and you know uh there have been Historically some other depictions of the Virgin Mary as actual Pam mama like the Pagan goddess Pam Mama the Pagan goddess Pam mama uh is a mountain depicted usually as a mountain let me show you there have been some traditional depictions of the Virgin Mary as this Pam Mama Mountain you can see it right here uh this is obviously precon silar good old Pope is this Tiara uh here's the Mountain patam Mama And the Virgin Mary

as pamama so you do actually have historically some depictions of the Virgin Mary as the Pagan goddess Pam Mama there is that as well so there are there are some interesting depictions of the Virgin Mary uh in church history so is the image appropriate we can have that debate but but I would just ask people to be consistent on the point if you think it's Inappropriate uh my question is what what do you think about some of these medieval paintings okay so let's do a summary here none of the participants of the ceremony believed they

were worshiping an idol the evidence is in fact to the contrary no conclusive evidence that the ceremony was Pagan was ever provided none of the unofficial clarifications from the Vatican indicated that this was Pagan in fact They're saying to the country the critics were looking for something to criticize before the Senate began and they found something in the ceremony it was merely assumed by Catholic media that the ceremony was Pagan idolatry that was never substantiated it was assumed right at the beginning little to no engagement with the facts was made with most in Catholic Media

Catholic media Cardinals bishops priests and theologians all assumed the ceremony was idolatrous and pontificated about the vatican's alleged idolatry as if the matter were factual and they continue to do so until this day and when people come back and question the narrative and say hold on wait hold on we're seeing problems with the narrative oh Pope spliner few in Catholic media actively push back against the narrative at the Time with the exception the best that I can tell of where Peter is seems like that's actually how where Peter is became pretty popular was by pushing

Back Against The Narrative like Lewis has a few articles on it and especially uh especially Pedro Gabriel I don't see a whole lot of other people who are pushing back on it at the time and sadly unfortunately I was one of the people who was um uh duped and believed the false Claims what got me questioning it is when people pointed out that the ceremony itself says It's Our Lady of the Amazon in conclusion was the ceremony at self idolatrous no the evidence shows it was not was it scandalous in some ways yes not because

of idolatry but because it gave the appearance to the average person of idolatry now In fairness the average American walk into A Catholic church or even an Eastern Catholic Church sees all these icons and sees us prostrating the icons they're going to think what that we're idolators so okay look there's only so much that we can accommodate people however this is not a liturgy this is not um you know you know a Divine Liturgy or something like that uh this was a uh ceremony that took place on the Feast of St Francis and what could

have happened here was uh this could have been Explained better to avoid disappearance so was it scandalous in so far as it gave the appearance of idolatry without proper explanation at the time was it confusing yes it was confusing because proper explanation was not given for this at the time could the Vatican have done better yeah yeah all around uh could it could have um had a better explanation before the event of Okay here's what this thing is you know here's what you're about to see here's a theological uh explanation of it here's some catechesis

there could have been more consistency in the explanation now In fairness there was no official explanation given by the Vatican but at least if you guys are going to unofficially explain it have some consistency and at the very least look into what you're commenting On there could have been more awareness of what was going on in the media Pope Francis admits yeah they weren't really aware that's a legitimate criticism some were ready to find something to criticize and they found it with the ceremony the false claim that the image was PM did not come from

the ceremony itself and the false narrative stuck due to endless media promotion of Vatican Idolatry with no evidence and little to no engagement of the facts lastly is the image appropriate debatable according to time place and culture and that is it that's the end of my presentation I hope y'all found this helpful you'll want to couple this video with that one that I did with Father Deacon drani about the truth of the Vatican Garden ceremony I'll put a link to it in the show notes I'll also create A link to reason and theology where I'll

have in the article an embedded PowerPoint presentation the one that you've seen here that will have all the links to everything that I referred you to you can go and watch it check time stamps check resources I showed you most of it on the screen as we went through together but for a few other things I just said hey check it out at your own Leisure you can go and do it um but again you'll want to couple this video With the one that father Deacon drandi and I did because in that when we go

through the ceremony play byplay and we demonstrate that this thing was Catholic everybody there was Catholic these were Catholics the gestures were Catholics the songs and prayers were catholic there was nothing there that was Pagan and the image itself was our lady of the Amazon according to the ceremony so where is the P mama where is the paganism it's not there this is a Narrative that was created after the fact by it seems both secular and Catholic media they perpetuated The Narrative I hope unknowingly um and just because they were confused the Vatican did a

very very poor job in explaining things because it never officially explained it and the few people who spoke um off the cuff with no information didn't know what they were talking about weren't officially clarifying and then they were All over the place there wasn't a fixed meaning uh surrounding the image with some of the other people uh surrounding the event so they unintentionally cause some confusion at the very least though they all agree it wasn't Pam mama uh the Pagan goddess and there was no idolatry there's at least that consistency um but the narrative continued

people took it to be fact after a while and we've heard endless condemnations of the Vatican and its idolatry and its worship of pcha Mama and they continue the false narrative until this day and when people like myself question it they just try to slander us and try to dismiss us and don't engage the actual issues um and it's once again thrown in our faces every single day for faithful Catholics who want to stand up say hey I'm questioning The Narrative of what you say about Pope Francis but Pope Francis is an idolator but Pam

mama that's the number one objection that I Hear so it's an issue unfortunately that lasts and endures to this very day again Taylor Marshall was on his channel today talking about Pam mama and mocking Pope planers um so some people were asking in the comment section you know why are you talking about pcha Mama again because then are talking about pajam Mama again and this is all they do is talk about pajam Mama they never stop talking about pajam mama and when they stop talking about Pama and they stop promoting The Narrative then Catholics who

defend holy mother Church won't have to talk about paj Mama anymore but until then as long as they continue to disseminate fake news and false accusations faithful Catholics are going to have to respond so what I try to do in addition to the video that we've already done with Father Jani what I try to do and this one is try to give you an idea of how this artificial Scandal was created and how it endures Un this day hopefully that has given you some clarity on how it uh came about and also highlights some of

the problematic figures that we were seeing at the time who are continuing to create problems in the Catholic church today and just as they were buying in two false narratives then and disseminating false information against holy mother church then some of those figures are doing the exact same thing today with unsubstantiated claims contrary to the facts and evidence Promoting Catholic dissent in the Catholic church and so on all right hey hit that like button hit the Subscribe button and if you want to support reason and Theology and what is taking place here and help the

channel grow to reach more people best way to do it is hit that subscribe button hit the like button comment there in the show notes that all helps with the algorithm and reaching new people but also check uh the patreon account out at patreon. Reason atheology extra content there for patrons but you'll be supporting the show so it can reach new people with information that they most likely aren't going to hear in most other places um so please consider doing that or the GoFundMe or PayPal link there in the show notes pray for all of

the people who have been deceived by this false information these false accusations you don't know how many people were vented from coming to the Catholic church because they think that the Vatican and the pope worshiped an idol so many Protestants said I'm not going to become Catholic because of this and a lot of Catholics left the Catholic church because of this and some people will not consider coming back to the Catholic church because of this this has impacted real souls in their Eternal lives so please pray for all the people who have been deceived by

these lies That we Catholics unfortunately have promoted all right we'll see you later God bless hey friends I'm now teaching as an Adjunct professor at Catholic Polytechnic University and I am excited to announce that we will be offering the first ever magisterial studies certificate program it consists of three courses an introduction to the magisterium councils dogmas Cannons and decre And evaluating magisterial teachings if you want to further your education and learn more about Catholic teaching Authority this is the program for you check out Catholic Polytechnic dorg and click on the certificate tab at the top

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