Dating Psychologist: "This is what women ACTUALLY find attractive." | Orion Taraban

People who've worked in these apps will say things like the top 1 to 5% of men get like 98% of the matches. >> It won't matter if you're the kindest, gentlest, sweetest man on the planet. The determination of attractiveness is based on other variables. >> If you're under 6 feet, don't really bother with the apps. >> You do not need money to get women. I know that 100%. >> Why can't men and women seem to describe what they actually want in a relationship or a partner? I heard all kinds of things that were like, "Well,

I want somebody who's kind and I want somebody who makes me feel safe." The part that women always leave out is that I'm excited to have this conversation, man. I've been looking forward to it for a while. >> I'm also I'm a little nervous cuz I think it's going to piss some people Off. >> I I don't know if you've seen any of that happen as a result of your YouTube videos. You get some nasty comments here and there. >> Here and there, but I would say that overwhelmingly the response has been positive. 98 99%.

>> That's good. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's sort of YouTube's interesting, right? Because you get people who are typically people who want to see that topic or and It's also a younger crowd typically. Uh I mean it's everybody, but YouTube tends to at least for me be a younger crowd. So you get a different kind of comment than you do from somebody who's willing to sit down and write you a long email. >> I don't you might do you get emails from your >> I do. I get emails every day. Every once in a while

I get a nasty email which always boggles my mind that someone actually took the time to sit down and >> antagonize someone that they apparently hate and you know just >> you know have a cheeseburger. >> That's right. Have someratom as we talked orratom whatever as we talked about pre-show. Don't have don't have skeptical Sunday forthcoming. Dissecting relationship dynamics is kind of tough though. I I actually I meant to tell you this pre-show. For 11 years, I taught guys how to meet and attract women. And it was like white hat dating stuff as Opposed to

like pickup artistry. >> So, you're not meeting women in on the streets in real life or is it >> Yeah, that was definitely real life back then. This is like online dating was kind of like, eh, we don't need that and we're not going to do that. And we can talk a little bit about why that doesn't work for pretty much anyone um in in the coming minutes here. But I spent a long time doing that. This is pre- pandemic, pre-me too, thankfully as well because As that started that to come up through the zeitgeist,

it was like I found myself being like, "No, no, we're the good drug dealers." And it was just a failing argument, right? Like you couldn't tell someone, "No, we're teaching guys these skills." And if they would listen to you, they would go, "Oh, that's great." You know, men and women. But if they were like against There's a lot of people who are just against figuring out how to become more of a Desirable mate. You just have to leave off the last thing, which is I'm helping men to become more confident and successful. No one's going

to have a problem with that. But if it's to get laid, whoa, >> well, ours wasn't even that. It was like to meet a woman that you can procreate with if that's your goal. Like, these were very wholesome goals. My clients were like, I just want to get married and have kids and I'm a engineer at Amazon and I don't meet a lot of women and I don't know how to do that except for Tinder, which isn't working. It wasn't like, "Yeah, bro. I want to go hit the club and like smash a bunch of

tail." We never really had that. But if you tell somebody, my clients are engineers in Silicon Valley who want to meet a nice lady. They're like, "Ah, I get it. You teach guys how to use and abuse women." And it was like, "Well, no, but okay." And you just could not Successfully get >> Well, the fact that they hired you means that they're already dorks and losers and beyond help anyway, >> right? It was you're tricking teaching men who shouldn't be able to get women how to get women and that's bad somehow. And it's like

no, I'm pretty sure I'm doing you a favor by making sure that the only guys you date are not exclusively players and disasters on wheels. Uh because the guys you say you Want are busy at work all day for 16 hours working at Facebook, right? So like they need a little bit of a a nudge in the right direction. But that was completely offensive to so many people. >> To some people. Yeah, it was a lot of people. It was so and I I just kind of like got out of that industry and I don't

I I don't regret it. I mean, it's harder to do also when you're married and you have kids. It's harder to be like I'm a credible voice in this area. Yes, you have the proof in the pudding, but it's also like when's the last time you ran an online dating profile, Jordan Harbinger? I don't know. Never. 15 years ago. Okay. I don't even I had to learn what Hinge was recently, right? I'm not in the game. >> Yeah. I have this theory that, you know, there's a lot of dating coaches online, some of them from

older generations, and I think you you really need to sus out where they are in having updated their Browser to 2025. And so, I think a good first question is to ask, how would you get a job in 2025? And if they say, "Well, first you get a nice good card stock for your resume and you work on having a firm handshake and you go down and you look them straight in the eye and you ask for a job." You probably shouldn't take that guy's dating advice. It's 40 years out of date. >> It is.

Yeah, there was a there was a lot of that. I I'll I'll vent more about my Previous career later on, but I think there's something about dating and relationships that is almost sacred to people. And it doesn't even matter what that is. It's just their particular belief system in that area. if they're say 30 years old has coagulated and solidified into this is how it is. Like I spent so much time arguing with people years ago that you're not just born with it or not. And people would die on that hill. >> Sure. >> And

I'm like, what qualifies you to know this? You're a single dude who has had no luck with a real long-term relationship. What do you mean you're born with it or you're not? and you're so convinced of this that you will not open your mind to anything. And I met a lot of people of both sexes of that. It's it it was like medical religion versus science back in the Middle Ages. >> But exactly. And don't you think that's A little suspicious? I mean, I argue in chapter 9 that a lot of romantic love is transfigured

religious impulse, especially >> monotheistic relig Christian religious impulse. And I think that helps to explain the zealous overreaction that some people have to examining the nuts and bolts of romantic relationships. You're just not supposed to cut open the saint's body. You're supposed to have faith that it's pure light or something Like that. And I think that holds people back from having satisfying relationships. >> Tell me what you mean by that. How it's religion is transposed onto dating and relationships. Well, people have these ideas that they're basically willing to argue about that die on those hills.

And I think we should be very cautious about what hills we want to die on. That somebody has a different idea about what works to attract men or women or I want A relationship that looks a little different than the conventional norm. What's so problematic about that? Kind of viva difference like let's have tolerance and find relationships that work for the individuals involved. I think that's actually a pretty moderate, reasonable perspective. >> You would think. Yeah. And but we've seen how people react to same-sex relationships. And if you think that's out of there, you'll you'll

meet Somebody who is totally fine with samesex relationships. And then you'll say, "Oh, my friend is poly and has two boyfriends or has a husband and a boyfriend." And they'll go, "Oh my goodness." And they their head explodes about how wrong that is and could never work. And it's like, I I see. So you draw the line at monogamy even if it's with the same sex and it's like well what what's what makes that arbitrary boundary something so strong for you? >> We're here in the Bay Area and it would be more socially acceptable for

me as a man to date multiple men than to date multiple women. >> Oh yeah. >> If I dated multiple men and I was gay, it'd be like go for it, king. You know, woohoo. But if it's multiple women, how could you be abusing these women? You narcissist, you're just using them. It's like Maybe, but probably not. >> Where where do you find these stupid? Do they know about each other? Yes. Well, they must be stupid then. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of that. >> Well, no. True Indian. That's that argument. >>

Yes. I think we say Scotsman now, but hey, >> whatever. This is I'm not going to police your speech, but I I I haven't heard I haven't heard that one for a While. Uh, you wrote, "People are in sexual relationships with their best option. Period." Tell I'm I'm starting making people angry early. Let's get it. Let's rip off the band-aid. with their perceived best option. And that's kind of the heart of my argument is that >> to argue that somebody is in a relationship with a lesser option when they could get realistically a better one

in their minds is absurd. No one will have will choose the the worser Option in their minds when they could get the better one. So that means that the perception of value is is at the heart of human relationships. Perception is a psychological thing and value is an economic thing. So that's where a lot of dating advice I think falls flat is you often get the psychological stuff which is sort of like all you need to do is inner work and you need to be confident and you need to believe in yourself and you need

to just be yourself and but not Too much of yourself, >> right? It's a good start but it's 15% of the equation. There are a few content creators that go more towards the economic side where you just hear people about sexual marketplace value type of >> that kind of stuff. Um, but >> that's a smaller crowd and a smaller audience than the conventional mainstream wisdom that it's like all about emotions and who you are. >> And there are dangers and pitfalls to >> just maintaining one perspective exclusively. I think you need both to have a

really complete understanding about who ends up with who and who stays with whom. >> I agree. I think the one of the biggest problems with the so-called red pill, so I guess you would say that's the economic argument, is that they're right about so many things and the things that they're wrong about make people who find latch on to those go, "Well, I'm going To reject everything that you say because I don't like the idea that people have a certain value in a marketplace because that's dehumanizing." And it's like, okay, but scoreboard, you're not it's

not working for you. >> It could be the other way around, too. You know, the people on the red pill space, you can say, well, you should probably cherish your long-term partner. Like, you simp. Come on, man. >> That's that's the main problem with Red Pill that I have. I I But the the reason it's quote unquote dangerous is they get a lot of things right. And it's hard for especially young guys to find where these where the brackish waters hit and like meet in the middle. uh because they're told they're an idiot by either

side for believing too much of that. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the show here. >> Like most things, it's a synergy. It's The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. >> Like any perspective that persists persists through time must have some degree of truth to it. >> Why can't men and women seem to describe what they actually want in a relationship or a partner? >> Wow, that's a complicated question. So there's a few different layers to that. On the most superficial layer, it's not socially acceptable to come right

out And say what it is that you want. One of my most popular YouTube episodes is called the part that women always leave out. When I was in my 20s and I was feeling frustrated about my ability to get the kind of relationship I want. And back then I really wanted to get married. I was more moving in that direction. And I was approaching the women in my life, friends and you know older mentors with this good faith question. It's like what do you [ __ ] Want? Cuz like let I want to give it

to you or someone like you so that I can have a successful relationship with a woman. And I heard all kinds of things that were like, well, I want somebody who's kind, and I want somebody who makes me feel safe, and I want somebody who buys me flowers and makes me feel like a little girl. And I'm thinking, well, what, man? I'm all of those things. I don't understand what the problem here is. >> And so, the part that women always leave out is that >> they do want those things, but they want those things

from the men they're already attracted to. If she's not attracted to you, buying her flowers is not going to make her attracted to you. And when I said this out loud in that episode, the most common push back in the comments was, "Well, Orion, of course, as women, we want to be attracted to Men." Like, why do we have to say that out loud? And I was like, because there's a generation or two of well-meaning, >> literalminded men who actually listen to the words that come out of your mouth, and you didn't say the most

important part, right? And clearly, if they're already attracted to the guy, that attraction wasn't based on kindness or safety or all these other things because they don't know if that guy is kind or Safe yet. So, the determination of attractiveness is based on other variables. And as a guy, you have to attend to those because if you don't, it won't matter if you're the kindest, gentlest, sweetest man on the planet. >> When I started the the business I was just talking about, we went to New York. That was our first location. And I remember interviewing

a lot of I was trying to network with like writers and this is Sex of the City era. So there Were a lot of like dating bloggers and I got all these men and women together. Uh and I remember interviewing each of them individually and becoming friends with them. And I remember there was one gal this is and her mindset was very common. People are going to go anecdotal fine but this is like very pervasive. She made a whole documentary about how guys are terrible at dating. And all you need to do guys is compliment

her shoes and buy her a drink and you're good. And I Remember thinking, I bet if a hundred guys did that, one of them she would be interested, you know, whatever. And that would work. And this she was she again died on the hill of no, you don't understand. We just want a little bit of kindness and a little bit of attention. And she had sex with all of my worst friends. The worst. the ones where you would go, I put up with him because he's hilarious and we go drinking and he goes hard. But

like I would not let my I Wouldn't let my cousin or my sister alone in a room with this guy. You know the friends you have when you're in your 20s before you cut them out of your life when you turn 30 basically. And she was just like, I don't know why I can't find love. And I was like, you have no clue what you want, darling. Like nothing. No idea. So, the most superficial reason why it's so hard to talk about it is sometimes people know what they want, but they're not allowed to say

it out Loud because they will be judged for being superficial. I have another episode called the superficiality of desire. And a lot of those superficial variables that go into attraction are actually rooted in evolutionary principles that have to do with sexual selection. And it's like, wow, maybe facial symmetry is a sign that this child when it was a fetus was exposed to fewer bacterial or viral attacks, you know, so It's actually a a healthier developmental process. Um, these cues that we think are just superficial could actually in some in many cases communicate that this person

is healthy, that this person is youthful, that this person is ready to reproduce. Not always. We have a lot of false cues these days, especially with the cosmetic industry. But that's just one layer. The second layer is that people don't even know what they want. >> They think that they know what they want. Mhm. >> Like this woman that you mentioned, they're aware of, I think, kind of an ego ideal of what they should want, but they think it's what they actually want. If you want to observe or understand what people actually want, you have

to notice who they hook up with, who they actually enter into relationships. That's what they want. Regardless of what they say With their mouths, >> watch what they do. Basically, versus stated is stated versus I think actual preference. Is that how you say it? dated versus actual preferences. That's what that's what it's like when you're marketing a hamburger and you say, "What do you want?" They're like, "I just want it to look taste fresh. I don't care what it looks like." Reveal preference. And then it's like they eat this thing that looks great and it's

not as tasty Rated by the other ones in the blind thing. And they're like, "Nope, the looks of the burger matter a lot. We're going to focus on that." It's just the revealed preferences. And I um I there was another gal that I remember very specifically. She goes, "I date jerks." And I was like, "Excuse me?" >> How relieving. you know, which is like 2021. And I go, "What do you mean?" She's like, "I just I like jerks." And I, "Do you like them?" She's like, "Well, they they're they're the worst, but I that's who

I'm attracted to." And I remember thinking, "You are remarkably self-aware. I'm envious of the level of self-awareness that you have. Like, I want that. How do I figure that out for myself and every single one of my clients?" Well, that's another layer is that sometimes people actually become aware of what they're attracted to, probably by observing their own behavior and making some reasonable Determinations. But sometimes what people actually are attracted to is at odds with the kind of relationship they would prefer to have. Like this woman who was self-aware enough to know that she was

sexually attracted to jerks probably isn't in a loving long-term relationship. >> Yeah. Not then. I mean, everybody she did was a complete disaster. And it was we we were friends, so I was like, "Can I ask you are you okay?" And she's like, "Sometimes, right?" I mean, it was and I was like, "What was to this day?" I'm like, "What was your home life all about?" You know, what's your relationship with your dad? >> That's generally where it comes from. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's that's our first culture is our family of origin. And we

model our love templates unconsciously on observing the primary relationships of our caregivers. Yeah. Why do men and Women often focus on, let's say, irrelevant or possibly even harmful and air quotes criteria? You know, like I think this speaks to how early relationship experiences can cause us to value something that's contrary to our our long-term goals. Well, a lot of people don't know what is actually important for the type of relationship that they're shooting for and they fall under a real general fallacy, which I think chapter 10 is exclusively about, Which is they believe that they

could have any relationship with anyone. Most people think that I am just going to choose the person I'm most attracted to or I most love and that person should be able to have the type of relationship that I would prefer to have. And that is absurd. Like you can only have certain relationships with certain people. If you want a peaceful loving relationship, you need a peaceful loving partner. It's impossible to have a peaceful loving Relationship with somebody who is chaotic or addicted or narcissistic or whatever problem you want to name. It's like >> you got

to take your grocery list to the hardware. Don't take your groceries list to the hardware store as they say in AA. Right. >> That's funny. So a lot of people don't know what actually is important for a long-term relationship. Other people and women are generally More guilty of this operate under the illusion of infinite abundance and in both in terms of potential partners and their timelines and especially I mean I can understand why they this might happen. is like if I was a reasonably attractive 22-year-old woman, I could just turn on an app >> and

by the end of the day, I probably have a few hundred likes, >> from guys who are being very sweet and Polite to me and complimenting how I look and asking me to buy me drinks or dinner. Some of them are going to be, I would never touch that. Others might actually be the most attractive men in the area. Sometimes those women then feel that because they can secure a short-term sexual relationship with a man, that's the same thing as potentially being able to secure a long-term partnership from that same person or a comparable person.

So, a lot Of people have and and as I talked about in chapter one, we all have that love template that's trained on our family of origin. And that's like training a AI on how to recognize birds, but you just trained it on one sparrow. >> You know, there's a huge der of data. No matter how good or healthy or loving your family of origin was, it's one piece of information. >> Which means that whether you're aware of It or not, you're probably going to think that that's the way that all relationships and certainly your

own should look. And there's probably variables in that template that don't actually move the needle with respect to successful relationships. And there's certainly other ways to have loving, stable relationships that were not manifested in that template. And so you might not recognize them. It's kind of a signal detection problem. >> Yeah. Yeah. I see this. I I have more questions about online dating at one point because well, one, everyone uses it and two, it's it's endlessly fascinating. I remember early in the online the early in match.com or plenty of fish whatever which apparently still exists

early in that era I had a friend who wrote a book about it and he was like not very tall not super attractive but he was really funny was a comedy writer and he's like this is for me Running around bars it's like I'm disqualified automatically by you know a lot of things he's like 5'6 which is fine but he was a little older but he was a great writer and so he would write dating profiles and teach other people how to do it. And I remember I went from having like a dating profile that

I barely used and he's like, "Let me write yours for you." And it was ridiculous. And I it was almost embarrassing because it was so far outside of my comfort Zone. I remember he liked spicy red heads. That was like his one of his one of his many things. Uh again, we're in our 20s, people, so don't judge me based on current Jordan, but based on 26-y old Jordan, but one of the things he wrote was no red heads in his dating profile. And you'd think like, well, isn't that counterproductive? No. What it did is

it got every spicy redhead, which is exactly what he wanted to be like, "What the hell is your problem?" And he's Like, "Ah, thanks for starting a conversation with me." And then he's going on the messages and just absolutely crushing it. And I'm like, every time I saw him, I'm like, "So, no redheads, huh?" Like, >> you do have to understand that a lot of dating is marketing. >> There's a lot of good guys out there that just have a marketing problem. >> Yeah. Uh, I was doing I was having a discussion with a guy

the other day and He works in modern viral advertising. He said, "If I wanted to get a baddie in 2025, I would >> a baddie." That's >> I would pay like an Instagram model with two or three million followers, I would commission a short >> and the short would basically be like, "I hate this guy. >> Here's five reasons why you should never date this guy." And all five of the Reasons are actually good like humble brags about the guy. >> And >> five million hurts. >> It's too big. It's unpainful. I couldn't take it

all. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Immediately. >> He always wanted to go to nice places. Sometimes I just want to sit at home and watch a movie. Okay. I don't want to go out of the can. >> [ __ ] like that. And I I think that was very clever. >> That is smart. So he did that. >> I don't think he did. >> Somebody do that please and tell me all about it. >> That's gen I mean that's genius. >> It is genius. Yeah. Um, I I think part of the meeting people live is also

tricky. Uh, body language is something you talked a little bit about in your book. Most of the initial Attraction happens before guys anyway are aware that they're on someone's radar. So, the non-verbal communication ended up being really important for when I was teaching this because when you walk in the room, other people become aware of you. It's kind of how it works. the guys that were approaching kind of thought as soon as I approach and open my mouth, that's when the first impression is formed. It's that's way too late. And guys think they choose the

Moment that they're judged and evaluated, but that's it's not true. The decision has been made already. Cues like social status, other people being interested in you already, that's already done. And I I wondered if you could shed some light on in light of that one reason or I think that's one reason why married men get hit on a lot is is there's mate copying strategy going on here. Like tell me is that a bunch of nonsense. The mate copying Strategy like oh he has a wedding ring. A woman already likes him. He's vetted. >> I

I call I've heard that called social proof. >> Yeah. >> And it's slightly different. >> Yes, >> that does make sense. It's just like business. It's sometimes cheaper and easier to poach your competition than train someone >> from scratch and have to go through the Hiring process. So yeah, if it works in business, it generally works in dating. >> That's interesting. >> So at least one woman when a man is married has said, "This is the absolute best man that I could possibly get." one and I thought that he was caring enough and stable enough

and successful enough to build a long-term relationship or have a family. There is already a lot of passive vetting that has occurred. So, that's one reason. I think another Reason why the ring does tend to attract women to married men is it can feel safer. M >> sometimes people act more appropriately when there are fewer safety protocols. It's like if we were to go to the edge of a canyon and there was no railing, you'd probably stand further back from the edge than if there was a railing. You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. Of

course. >> So, a lot of women and men believe that Women women can now talk to this man. He's safe. It's not going to go anywhere. And that could lead to a conversation and conversation could lead to an emotional entanglement and emotional entanglement could lead to an affair etc etc. But there's also plausible deniability and these say oh this would he's married it would it would ne it would never happen. >> That's interesting. I I like the railing Comment because you see I mean I'm staying away from even the railing but that's my own that's

my own issue. >> Smart. >> But you see especially the people who are doing it for the Graham they're standing on the railing. They're on the other side of the railing leaning back with the phone in the air, right? Like, "Oh, look. I'm on the other side of the railing." >> Every year at Yusede, there are like Three tourists that go over the waterfall. Yeah. And that's not a They don't even find the bodies at the edge. >> That is uh that that's nightmare fuel. >> Just stick away. Stay away from the the edge. >>

I don't have that much to prove, man. I'm staying away from the railing. Are you scared? Are you scared? Yeah, I'm scared. This kills people. >> Healthy caution. You can call it that. >> Yeah. How do strategies for short-term Relationships differ from long-term relationships? You wrote, "Air on the side of being more boring when you're looking for a long-term relationship. Air on the side of being too bold when looking for something short term." Explain that to me. >> Yeah, those are some of the major differences. Um, look, people, men and women enter, they want different

things from different people. This is also something that's Really important for mostly men to understand. Women already get this. When I was younger, I just thought that all women wanted relationships. And so that's what I tried to give them because I in my masculine mindset, I will give a woman what she wants and therefore she will give me what I want. And that's the basis of a reciprocal relationship. And I just thought that women wanted commitment and love and the labels and all of that stuff. And a Lot of women do want those things from

the men they want them from, but they don't want them from all men indiscriminately. There are certainly men that they just want to have a fun evening with. That's kind of how players can play. Like they have to have someone to play with. >> Exactly. Mhm. >> So, and and these aren't all bad, promiscuous women. Sometimes these are women who do have low body counts, and They just get swept up in the moment because the man is masterful at creating an emotional experience and conducting them in the direction of a sexual relationship. It doesn't mean

that he lied or deceived her. Obviously, that can happen in pickup. But in the vast majority of cases, she isn't a willing and enthusiastic participant in the interaction. >> This was this is we were talking pre-show about how tough it was to teach This because the assumption is, oh, so you just lie to women and get them to sleep with you and then you don't offer a relationship. You're a scumbag. And it's like, no, we're super upfront about the fact of what we want and what we don't want and there's consent the whole way along.

And some women are actually open to that. And you would be maybe not you. Many people will be surprised to hear that a lot of women refuse to believe that there are women out there Who want just short-term relationships. And I don't even know if they refuse to believe it. I think they refuse to acknowledge it. I think they know it because they probably themselves have also done it. But there's somehow this like unwritten rule like you shouldn't do that. You're screwing it up for everybody else. >> That the women are screwing it up for

everybody else. >> Like the women who who allow themselves To have fun with a guy here and there are screwing it up for other women. That that was a common belief that was articulated to me. I should say >> they're like we're they're like sexual scabs. They're they're going across the picket line. >> They're crossing the picket line. Like if you and I remember one older lady, she was really awesome cuz she was super self-aware and very outspoken. She would debate me a lot on this and she would Go, "No, we need as a group,

we need to withhold sex from men because that's how we get what we want." And I was like, damn, you said the quiet part out loud. >> That's interesting. So there is an ancient Greek play called um Lissrada. Do you know this play? >> It's by the comedian Aristophanes. >> Okay. >> And I made an episode about it because the purpose the the whole plot of this comedy is all of the husbands in Athens, I think, were out at war. They were constantly campaigning here and there, and the wives were getting sick of all this.

So the wives get together in act one and they basically make this blood oath that no woman will have sex with her husband until the husbands end the war and the rest of the play is how that plays out. And at first the men kind of laugh it off as women are going to be crawling back to this monster pretty soon and that doesn't happen. And Then the men start to sneak out and be like come on baby I I just need a little bit something. And sometimes the women almost fold because they want it

too. And but they hold strong and eventually the men stop the war and everyone kind of lives happily ever after. >> It's Greece. I figured you were going to say they were banging each other by the end of the >> might have but maybe that gets old. I'm not sure. >> So the uh the idea here is that women can and do control their sexuality for political or ideological reasons. The issue is that it worked in this fictitious play because it was a unified community. It would never work in California for say because not all

the women are aligned with their cultures and their values and the type of relationship that they're looking for. So, if they would never get a unified coalition, but let's say if every Liberal woman said, "We're not going to sleep with any men anymore until Donald Trump gets impeached or something." >> That's a real movement. Have you heard about this? >> Oh, the four E or 4B. You're thinking a 4B. That's more like we don't need men and we're not going to deal with them. This was like don't have sex with anybody who didn't vote for

Kamla. I can't I'm I'm paraphrasing, but it was Kind of like that. But it's a small group of women and you just feel bad because they're married to guys who are like maybe did that and then their wife is like well I'm not going to have sex with you until the next presidential election. It's like >> that sucks. Um but it's even harder for the women who aren't partnered who make that decision because they basically just voluntarily take themselves out >> of the mating pool. And that's an Opportunity for the women who don't have those

same beliefs to come in and be like, "Get a load of that woman, but I don't have that kind of an issue here." And so >> other women can make other women more attractive, and women will seize those opportunities. >> Why do men often pretend to be interested on it, but I think this is fascinating. What? Tell me why men often pretend to Be interested in long-term relationships and women often pretend to be more interested in sex at first. I think both of them are trying to display what they believe the other party wants and

that's I mean we could call that lying and in some cases it is but it could also mean kind of putting your best foot forward. Um, is it lying when you go to a job interview and say, you know, I really believe in creating shareholder value and I'm really excited to be a part of Your team to help you reach your goals. Like the not it's not a lie. It's just that the unspoken part is as long as you compensate me handsomely and don't treat me like crap. And you know that same job that you're

jumping through your butt to get and are enthusiastically celebratory when you receive it is the one that you [ __ ] about further down the road and you're looking for something better once you get acclimated to that uh position or opportunity. So I think it's just Both parties believing that they know what the other party wants and showing I can do that. I can give that to you because that's basically the basis of relationships is that you have to want something from me. If you don't, you don't deal with me at all. You won't even

talk to me because that's an opportunity cost. You could take your time and attention elsewhere where it be more profitably deployed. So, of course, I have to show that and make a good Guess about what you want and sort of display the thing or demonstrate a willingness to provide it. >> Otherwise, how could we possibly move forward? >> I feel like it's important to admit to ourselves and to society what men and women actually want in long-term versus short-term relationships. >> We want something totally different. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. No, please Do. Yeah. So I

I learned this personally. So in my early 20s I was an actor living in New York City and I was broke all the time and I was living in public housing in Brooklyn. Oh jeez. >> And you know monthto month just sort of like trying to make ends meet so I could live in New York for another month to make ends meet. But I had no trouble finding women to have sexual relationships with. You do not need money to get women. That's I know that 100%. I call things like a fancy car or a sevenf

figureure bank account attraction proxies. All things being equal, if we have two exactly the same guys and this guy's broke and this guy's a millionaire, of course the women are going to choose the millionaire. But men incorrectly believe that just having a million dollars or a Ferrari means that you get effortless sexual opportunity. And that's not true. It's not like they just line up in front Of the car until you like go out for a drive and throw themselves at you. You still have to engage their emotions. You still actually have to listen to them

and go through the whole process. So, back then when I had no trouble attracting women, I wanted to get married. I wanted a long-term relationship. But none of the women, they didn't even want to be my girlfriend. They didn't even want people to know that they were dating me. You Know what I'm saying? But they were coming over to my house seven nights a week. Do you know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. >> Then fast forward a little bit. I clean up my act. I move to California. I get my doctorate. I start making decent

money. Now all the women want to get married. And I just want to hook up. >> Oh man. >> You know, so people kind of want what they can't slash don't have because That's what wanting means. It means both to lack and to desire. And of course we desire what we lack. >> What what part of that is a function of age? Right. Because when you're in your 20s, a lot of women don't want to get married. They want to hook up. You get your doctorate, you're I don't know, like 33 years old, whatever. 35

years old. Depends how uh I was probably like 33. >> Okay. So, you're 33 years old. You're Meeting a different age of gal that maybe wants something else or were you going for the same age group that you were? >> I was actually I usually date a little bit younger. So, at 33, I actually had a 25year-old girlfriend at the time. Um, and certainly when I was a 25year-old living in New York, I was dating 25 year olds. >> Yeah. Okay. So, it's the same age. So, it's not necessarily a function of age. Do Do

you think that there's a difference in well, okay, I want to marry him because he's successful and he's attractive versus now I just want to hook up with him because he's attractive but he's not successful. >> I don't know if it's necessarily the age because there's going to be some really sexy dudes out there. Not me. Working on it, but like there's some really sexy dudes. Some of them are in their 30s, some of them in their 40s, but they're Like Instagram models. They're dumb as rocks, but they have the the abs. They have the

the piercing gaze. A lot of women just want to have that experience. Same thing with fame. A lot of fame is probably the most attractive variable to women, even more so than money, even more so than abs. But um a lot of women just want to have the story, the experience, and so they'll DM famous athletes or movie stars, and if they're cute enough, they can get a rendevous. But sometimes these women are married or they have girl uh boyfriends, and they just want to like have a little excitement on the side, but they're not

going to leave their stable situation. And they probably correctly believe that they couldn't engage this really attractive man's long-term attention against all of his optionality and her interexual competition. So women can be a little bit more realistic in that, >> but they won't posit it like that. They Won't come out, well, the reason why I did this is because I don't think I'm attractive enough to beat out all of the interexual competition that is attracted to this highly desirable man. They'll just say, "Oh, you know, he was a he's just a playboy. He's not serious."

>> Which is I mean, >> both could be true. >> Both can be true. Yeah. It's could be a both end, not an either or. >> A lot of my neighbors in my old place Were athletes. One of my friends was a star quarterback of a I should just leave it there, but like and he was like, "H how'd you meet your wife?" Because she was like a singer and a model and but he had met her I think well before the NFL. And it was like oh high school or early college. And I was

like, smart. One, you weren't, you know, rich and famous then, so you, you know, she actually likes you theoretically. Uh, and two, you know, she doesn't have To, I mean, I cannot even imagine what his DM inbox looked like. I mean, he's a good-looking dude and he was on like in the Super Bowl, you know, this is a and I I think his signing bonus was like he could buy half this neighborhood with it, you know, it was ridiculous. And so I thought that was kind of I was always like, "Hey, man." And so whenever

he had his NFL buddies over, I was always like, "You guys dating?" And like it was either like, "Nah." And then a chuckle Cuz it was like dating, you know, what's that? Or they were already married and done. >> Yeah. I saw an interview with Dan Blazerian a while back. You know, nowadays he's a pro- monogamy guy, but he's, you know, plowed through half of Los Angeles. So it's like >> that's sort of equivalent to a billionaire coming on TV and saying, "Guys, it's not all about money." It's like, you're right, but it would be

nice For most people to have a little bit more. You know, for Dan to say, it's, you know, having meaningless sex with beautiful women every day of your life for 10 years gets old. It's like, yeah, but maybe I could it could wear on me a little bit. >> I wouldn't go to Bill Zarion for any insight that you can necessarily trust. Uh >> my point is that the interviewer was trying to make him feel as if he were Manipulating and exploiting these women. And his response was basically like actually I think that I'm more

often used in these interactions like I throw these big parties, they come to drink my booze, they come to stay in my pool. It's a value exchange I think for him and and he realized that early. I know the guy who built his Instagram. This was a design thing. He wasn't like, "Oh my god, I'm famous and I'm having all these people here." I mean, he they were Paid to >> Sure. >> There's that, too. Yeah. Uh, but these women are often using me. They're trying to get revenge on their ex-boyfriends. They're trying to have

uh an experience that they can like take pictures that they've been there to kind of make other girls envious. I mean, it's more complicated than just men get sex from women. >> I agree. I remember those parties and There'd be like a baby giraffe there and you're like what the you know like it was it was curated. This is I didn't even have Instagram and I remember they were like make sure you tag and I was like I don't even have Instagram. They're like what are you doing here? >> Uh friends with this gal that

goes to all of his parties. Yeah. There was a baby giraffe at the party. Okay. And guns like automat you know. It was it was like what you see on Instagram. And I remember thinking, yeah, kids these days, where can I where do I sign? Uh, why is there such a wellestablished double standard with the you said body count earlier, se number of sexual partners between men and women? I I mean, I've got my theory. I'd love to hear about this because this is hotly contested. You know, you you we congratulate guys for having sex

with a lot of women, but we those same guys will go, "Oh, she's run through if she's Got even a third of this guy's number." >> Yeah. It's very deep. Um, you know, the piffy phrase is, you know, a key that can open any lock is a good key, but a lock that any key can open is a bad lock. >> Oh, man. That's warm up those emails, folks. I'm here for you. >> But you have to understand that this is rooted in often very deep cultural scripts. And ultimately, it's not even about men and

women. It's about economic Inequality, which I'll get to near the end. But um the one of the reasons is that as far as I know there are no cultures in which male virginity is celebrated. You know, every once in a while you see clips of like the Christian youth camps where they're trying to say being a virgin is cool and it's like oh bro. You know, so it it's nowhere is that a value. You never hear a woman say, "I want a virgin man." >> You know, maybe if women did start to talk like that

and more importantly decided to act like that, we would see male virginity increasing its value. But it doesn't really give women anything that they don't already have. Traditionally, what female virginity does give men is some sort of paternity assurance in the context of marriage. So there is like the women always know it's their baby. Men never 100% know. >> That's the one of the foundational Jewish law things is did it come out of mom? Well, okay, that's the lineage we're going with because we don't know which dad it is. Like for being 100% honest. >>

I see. So there is a value add to men for female virginity that doesn't exist the other way around. And there is that's probably the reason why female virginity is celebrated in a lot of cultures instead of the other way around. Um but ultimately I don't even Think it's about men and women. It just looks that way because most of dating and mating occurs in the 20s and early 30s. And that's the time when women are more advantaged in the dating marketplace. So, the way I think about it, it's like, think of a soccer game.

Whatever team is up gets to run defense, and whatever team is down has to run offense. If you're down on points, you can't just sit back. You have to take action and Make something happen. But if you're ahead on points, you can kind of just like just sit there and bleed out the clock if you wanted to, right? So, this can change and we definitely see that flip later on in life. Especially guys, usually they're divorced or they never got married and they're in their 30s and 40s and 50s sometimes and they've become very successful,

very famous, very wealthy, and now they have hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands some of These men of women chasing after them. They're running defense. It's not like these guys are like finally and they just become Wilt Chamberlain and and run through all of their fan base. That's very uncommon. Most of these guys are like, "Oo, I actually have more to lose than to gain in this sexual encounter." >> I've written those NDAs for friends. I'm a lawyer for people who don't know that. And and so it's like, I need some kind of agreement where if

they get pregnant Or if this happens, I can't get sued. And it's it's tough. >> So that's the person who has more to lose and less to gain runs defense. And that's generally women throughout most of the dating timeline that people are aware of because most people date and pair up by the time they're 30 or so. And women definitely have more to lose in that time frame. But it's not inherent to the female sex that they're that way and and not the other way. In Fact, we would find it virtuous for a guy who

has lot of power and wealth and optionality to not exercise it. But the vast majority of men do not have power, wealth, and optionality. It is no virtue. It's a necessity. They can't exercise it. So why would we celebrate it? But when like a a famous politician doesn't cheat on his wife, we're like, "Good." >> Slow clap. Yeah. >> Right. because we all know that he could If he wanted to, but he didn't, right? So, that's part of it. >> I What about this is much simpler for men. It takes some skill on the whole

to have sex kind of. You have to have a little bit of RZ at least. You got to be you meet a bar of attraction and fitness that's set somewhere arbitrarily most of the time. There are exceptions to this, right? Fat dorks like me get laid occasionally. No, it doesn't matter. Uh but for women that bar is so much lower. There's this the bar for skill. I think even some of the most un I feel so mean saying this, but some of the most sort of conventionally unattractive women could still have sex. I won't say

at the drop of a dime, but certainly by taking enough messages online, they'll find somebody. They could post on Craigslist if that still exists. >> Might not be the man they want. >> It won't be the man they want, but they will get the sex. For men, it's often I Will take anyone. And the answer is still no. >> Well, thank you for reminding. I do talk about that in the book as well where that any action that requires mastery, competence, or skill is going to be valued highly or more highly than any behavior that

doesn't. And for men to get laid requires a lot more skill and mastery than most women will ever know or are willing to admit. By the same token, the skill and mastery for a lot Of women is to weed out the [ __ ] and to like save her time, attention, and opportunity for the men who are actually serious, who could give her what she wants. If she just falls for every line, hook, line, and sinker, like some naive country bumpkin, we wouldn't say that she's very skillful or masterful, and that wouldn't be a behavior

that we would celebrate or value, >> right? Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. >> And and this is especially true because most decent, normal dudes don't aggressively pursue women. the the dudes who aggressively pursue women are not entirely, but they're largely composed of players and and pickup artists and guys who maybe have narcissistic grandiosity because that's what enables them to say >> this girl's going to be lucky that I'm talking to her tonight, right? >> Which is actually a a decent attitude to Cultivate because it's scary to approach women in the wild as it were.

>> It is. And so these men are often the bad faith actors that women need to use their discernment with respect to their intentions. The issue is that a lot of women that's all they interact with because those are the bold men who approach them and so they think that all men are liars and things like that. It's like no but the liars aren't brave enough. >> They're sitting at a table in the corner. They're thinking about how pretty you look and that's why he's so scared. You know, it's sweet, but like >> he's having

eight shots to build up the g guts to talk to you provided he's not keeled over in the the toilet by >> That's not That's not hot. That's not sexy. >> No, no, >> no. I mean, cuz think about what woman has to say like a man has to get drunk To talk to me. She She knows that she's not the king of the jungle. >> She knows that. And who are the ones that she goes home with? the guys who are who who take >> yeah more or less at least seize the opportunity >>

there's a selection bias there I mean again as per my previous business it was okay we need to take the guys who are normally like eight shots deep before they even think about talking to a woman And turn them into a guy who can almost be that sort of like overly bold guy for a few minutes all he needs to do is burn hot for a few minutes and then once he's like got the attention and seated at the table with the girls, he can put on a little bit of of of a performance or

whatever. And then it's like, you know, I've got to run. I got my friends here. Let me get your number. And it's it's done. And and he'll they'll come back. I remember teaching this. They'll come Back to the table and they'll go, "Oh my god, that was exhilarating." And because they've never done and it's thrilling because they basically turned into like Neo from the Matrix for 10 minutes, came back, and they're good. And they've won. They They've won the huge victory for themselves. But other guys that do this all night long every single night, those

guys are terrifying because they are like not they're machines in a way that is not a Compliment. >> Yeah. One of the most risky things about skydiving is when you have like a thousand dives and you lose the sense that you're doing something dangerous. You don't even get the adrenaline rush anymore and they like forget to deploy their shoots, right? So those guys who are just approaching 50 women a night, night after night, they don't feel that exhilaration anymore. They're just doing it because they're kind of like trapped In the game. >> Yeah. And there

was a lot of my I guess you call them colleagues, the these strange pickup guys from back in the day, they were deeply unhappy and it was like they're they had to fill this bottomless pit of validation with empty sex and validation from strangers. I think you could call it a process addiction. Like I've worked with a few patients who were like, "I don't even like these girls. I don't even think They're that cute." I took home a three the other night just because there was nothing better and I had to score and I was

like, "Oh man, dude, >> I have seen and heard that before." It's funny. Process addiction. I never >> thought about that. I I live for a guy with a guy for a very short period of time and I I remember he would bring home women where I'm like, I don't even want her in my house. This is not because she's ugly, but but this is like A this is a unstable per like you you picked a crazy person that >> she's an arson risk. >> She's an Yeah. Like this person I don't want them freely

roaming while I'm asleep in my home. And he'd be like, "Ah, come on, man." And it's like, "Go to her place. Oh, wait. She doesn't have one. What does that tell you? You know, she lives at her friend's bar in the back. Like, this is not a you know, so there was a there was quite a bit of That crosses addiction. I'm going to have to remember that you said that men are more likely to cheat and stay and women are more likely to cheat and terminate the previous relationship. That's insightful. Can you tell me

why this is the case? >> Um uh okay. So >> this is by the way men and women who cheat, not that they're more likely to cheat than the other sex. To be clear, >> it does according to the statistics, men are more likely to cheat. >> I thought it was even. Actually, >> it's getting real close. women have really gone for the equality. I swear I look this up and it's like 51% men, 48% women. Like it's basically >> it's very hard to get reliable statistics on this because >> let's chat GBT8 and then

believe blind blindly believe whatever that >> sometimes it's like anywhere between 15 And 90% of men cheat in their marriages. It's like you get a lot of uh it's clearly a socially unacceptable thing to admit. So, you get self-report surveys if they're anonymous is probably the best way to do it. >> This is self-reported and it the Chad GPT is like it really depends on how you measure it. >> It's like did they have sex with someone? Okay. >> Or is it like they have a long-term Written affair going for somebody they've never met is

and is that worse? An emotional affair. Yeah. >> And do they have the statistics there? They do, but it's like 20% of men versus 13% of women self-report that they have had sex with somebody outside of their marriage. Like that's a very that's a tiny piece of the pie. >> You got to define it somehow. And so that is a definition and that fits with my understanding. The reason why I say That men when they cheat tend to stay and not women is that uh based on another study that's I think been replicated multiple times

that has to do with relationship satisfaction and infidelity. You're nodding. Do you know this study? Do you want >> I do, but I don't know the the numbers if you know them. I I know it it's >> gez I don't know the actual numbers set up in my head but I know the >> I I think where you're going with this And correct me if I'm wrong is men will often cheat because of and again often is relative but because of opportunity and they're very they're happily married but they have opportunity to do something whereas

women are like I'm only going to cheat if I've been neglected for years on end. >> Uh it's kind of like that little something like that. >> I don't think this study suggests that men cheat because of opportunity. I Think I believe that. But I think what the study shows is that there's no statistically significant difference in relationship satisfaction between men who cheat and men who don't. >> Right. Okay. >> Which means that the loyal and the disloyal men are about as happy with their marriages. Right. But there's an enormous discrepancy in relationship satisfaction between

women who cheat and women who don't in the expected Direction is the women who cheat are have very high levels of expressed relational dissatisfaction. And often times women will cheat for an they kind of can kill two birds with one stone in the sense that they can use it to trigger the end of a relationship that they might already have been emotionally done with for some months or years >> and or secure the next long-term relationship. It's like they're jumping Ship for another safe harbor. >> It's a they call it monkey branching on the internet.

I don't know if we want to use that. What do you think? >> I mean, it it's an evocative image and okay, if that's what people are calling it, that Yeah, >> that's that's the Reddit uh that might be like a red pill term, but it kind of it it's also not only that, right? It has to do with hypergamy. >> Uh Yes, generally hypergamy means that you mate and date up social status hierarchies. And the fundamental thing we started talking about is that people don't chain forego a better option in terms of a worser

one. Now does that mean that every time a guy crosses a married woman's path who makes slightly more than her husband, she's just going to go off with him? No. Because there's the value calculation is actually much more complex than that. But if there's if that opportunity that man is better than her husband in multiple important domains for her in conjunction with maybe more dissatisfaction in that relationship, that's going to make it more likely that she's going to move forward with that man if he offers her the opportunity to do so. So that's that's why

women are more likely to cheat and terminate the previous relationship whereas men since They don't have that dissatisfaction necessarily are may cheat and then say I'm not going off with you. I >> Let's put a little asterisk on this because this is kind of a a pet peeve of mine because we I just got done saying that men cheat more often than women. >> Yes. However, we kind of ignore the way that women tend to cheat. >> Ah okay. Men are more likely to cheat simultaneously. They have multiple girls at the same time. >> I

see. I can't remember. >> Women are more likely to cheat consecutively. Technically, no cheating has occurred. I broke up with Derek and the next day I'm dating Thomas. >> Yeah. >> Now, you might think, okay, well, no harm, no foul. there was a clear delineation, but it's like Benedict Arnold was loyal to the Americans up Until the point that he was loyal to the British and we don't really hold him up as a paragon of patriotism and loyalty. The way I talk about in the book is in terms of ethics. So, I'm a psychologist and

we have an ethical code and one of the statutes unsurprisingly is therapists don't have sex with their patients. reasonable enough. But here's the thing. What's stopping a therapist from terminating with a really attractive Patient on the spot and then taking her out for dinner that night? Oh, we're not patients anymore. We're We've ended the therapeutic relationship. Wink wink. So, your place or mine? He He wasn't a doctor and she wasn't the patient. So, no harm, no foul. Right. Well, >> the power dynamic is still in play. It it is and that's why they have this

second statute right after that one which basically says therapists can only initiate sexual relationships with Former patients after all of these various conditions are met. There's like 10 conditions including most notably that at least 2 years have passed since termination. And it's like yeah that kind of makes sense cuz it closes the obvious loophole around the doctor patient relationship. So if a woman can end a relationship and immediately start another one, especially if she probably already knew this guy, has already spoken to this guy, has sensed that There's some sort of attraction. Is she really

not is she didn't cheat? Really? >> Right. It's it's you get broken up with and then she's dating the guy from the gym that she told you not to worry about for the last six months. Yeah. Right. >> Like >> what a coincidence. >> Yeah. So that wouldn't count because they were on a break. You know what I'm saying? But it's like uh that's how women's cheating Flies under the radar. And if you count consecutive relationships, women cheat just as much as men. >> I see. Interesting. Yeah, that's that's quite fascinating. I want to discuss

some specific strategies. is I think before my old strategy was before getting married obviously was to be as you said before overly bold and then I would eventually sleep with the the G not necessarily the same night it might take a couple weeks A little bit of dating and if I liked the person and frankly to be transparent also the sex I would switch gears and switch my signals and be like now I'm not a short-term dater I'm actually interested in a long-term relationship this really it it didn't always work but it it it actually

worked a hot because I signaled short-term relationship just in kind of just in case so that I wasn't lying about my intentions. Although, if you really think about it, I kind of was Just not usually it was the reverse lie, right? It wasn't me pretending to be interested in a long-term relationship to get sex and then buy. It was me pretending to be interested in only sex then go, "Hey, you know what? Actually, you're really cool. I'd like to date you for longer." That was super successful. And I I I can't Can you explain maybe

why that worked so well? Oh. Um, uh, >> I'm putting you on the spot. I >> Well, I actually I mean that's that's your experience and >> it it does I think accord with what I'm going to say, though superficially it might conflict with some of the things that you just said. >> That's fine. It's not a rule. It's just something that worked for me. >> So, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm hearing in what you just told me is that there's like two different Pathways. It's like there's a way that

you get a short-term relationship and there's a way that you get a long-term relationship. And you signaled one and then switched to the other. Yeah. More or less. Okay. >> I just never started with I want a long-term relationship and it's like I'm talking to you at a bar at 1:00 in the morning which is weird. like outside of very specific communities like you're dating in a closed religious >> context >> church introduction arranged marriage >> or a very traditional culture that I have not visited in my life you know but I've heard about on

the nature channel or something like that so um >> Amish dating >> kind of but even they get ruma right so >> they do we hear from those guys all the time >> oh yeah >> I need a shortcut man I've been Amish my Whole life I don't even know how to use a smartphone and I I've got eight more months to figure out how to well, you know, fill in the blanks. >> Okay. So, but in my opinion, there aren't two pathways. There's only one. There's only one pathway to everything. And that's because in

our culture, sex precedes commitment. And that's just how it is, right? So, paradoxically, the best way to get a long-term relationship is to do the Things to get a short-term relationship and then just keep doing them for longer, more or less. >> That that tracks. >> Cuz if you go up to a girl at the bar and be like, I'm getting I'm getting marriage vows from you, sweetheart. And like >> cringe, >> have you decided on our children's names? And that woman could say, I just want a good man to get married. But if a

Man were to approach her like that, she would get creeped out. >> Yeah. I mean it's gross. >> So you the re you like the the relationship is based first on sexual attraction. If that's not there you don't get off the ground. Now to go the distance it has to be based on something more than just sexual attraction. But to say I'm and a lot of women make this mistake, especially in their 30s when they get serious about Settling down, is they actually were playing around with lots of guys and they're like, "Well, I don't

want to do that. I want to start dating intentionally." And they start treating their dates like job interviews. And like, where is this going? Do you see yourself getting married in the next 6 months? Because I could see myself getting married in the next six months. And it's like, that works about as well as the guy coming up to you asking about Your future kids' names. like, "Whoa, whoa, that is not the right order of things, sweetheart. I'm just getting to know you." It comes off as really transactional. Women often bulk at the transactional model

until they are ready to do business. Let's put it that way. And then they're like, I can do what do you bring to the table? Unfortunately, I and I've had a number of contentious conversations with women on this. They Also just tend to focus on what they want, which is only half of the equation. They have to also say, well, what are they providing? And it can't be what they think is valuable. Like I like to say, the cat decides what milk is good. They can't decide what men are supposed to value or be attracted

to or to like. >> It's for men to decide that. And then for women to look, well, how many of those things that men value do I have? Because that's what I can barter for what I want with. And that's the basic basis of reciprocal human relationships. >> Yeah, I I like I like the way you put that, especially the do what you do for short-term relationships and then just keep doing it. That's that's actually more accurate than me having made some big switch. I think that when I say made a big switch, I basically

say I like you. I want to keep dating and hanging out. That that's it. I'm not like I Don't change my entire personality or approach to the relationship based on that. There's a number of reasons why this works. Because the probably the most scary thing about dating is the rest of my life. That's why sometimes it's easier to tell your deep dark secret to a stranger in a bar on a random Thursday than to your wife who's supposed to be your soulmate and your confidant. Because if that goes sideways, you have to look in that

Person's eyes every day for the rest of your life and experience that judgment. >> Yeah, >> that is very risky. Okay. So, when women start to date intentionally, the guy's thinking, the rest of my life, that's just a very long period of time, and I don't even really know who you are, and this is going really quickly. >> Ma'am, we're at Lucky Strike, and I'm on my third old fashioned. Do we? Yes, I am looking for a partner, but wow. Not like In the next 10 minutes. >> Exactly. And so this also is one of

the conditions under which passion flueses is restriction. >> It's no accident that people tend to fall deeply in love with somebody who's moving away in two months. >> Oh god, this I was going to give you an example uh and my wife is going to kill me of somebody who was supposed to be a hookup because it was her. She was moving that weekend. I met her on a Tuesday. She's like, "I'm moving on Saturday." And I was like, "Well, okay, whatever." >> It's like, "Then you are safe because it's like the ring. This can't

go anywhere." So, I can be as honest and authentic as I possibly like. If you don't like it, I'm like, "I'm never going to see you again." And so, they become vulnerable. They become authentic. They take risks because there's very low perceived risk, which Makes them more attractive to each other. >> Yeah. This was the first four days of the relationship, right? I'm moving on Saturday. Moving on. was always like warp speed because whatever last romp in LA and then it was like I actually really like you. Yep. Same. But that took a couple weeks,

right, of stretching out. She had to come back and get some of her crap from the apartment and oh, I need a new apartment. Maybe I'll rent the one you moved out of that your parents own. I mean, that's exact. That's how my relationship began. I really I I have to wonder. I think the answer is yes, Jen, just in case you're listening to this. But I have to wonder, would things have played out the way that they played out? Would we be married right now? If it was like she lived in LA and I

lived in LA or we both had moved to San Francisco and she if the circumstances were different, There's a very high possibility she wouldn't have even answered my DM cuz that's how I met her. >> And men get this the other way around. Like when I was the nice I wasn't that nice, but when there's like the nice guys in their 20s who are like ready to settle down. >> Yeah. they automatically make themselves a plan B, if not a plan Z, because that guy is a sure thing and he's always there so he can

be a fall back. Unfortunately, the way to, you know, if you're fishing or hunting, you kind of have to use some tactics to bring in your quarry as it were, and this is true for both men and women. And so again, I don't think that there are two different pathways. For those who are interested in a long-term relationship, you have to pass through that that phase that it's still a short-term relationship. I have an episode, it probably is out by the time This comes out, but it's called no one night stands. And you see that

in a lot of women's dating profiles. No one night stands. Lot of judgmental energy about it. >> It also sounds a lot like no redheads, which I talked about in the beginning of the show. At the end of the episode, I say, and of course, the only reason why this is a rule is because she's had one night stands because that's whereing rules come from is people do something And then >> they have an outcome that they prefer. So, what a woman who says no night stands is communicating is I've had them, but I'm not

going to have them with you, which makes her more expensive and less valuable at the same time to the men that she's now potentially trying to attract. >> It's true. Although you could read that a different way, like I'm I maybe I'll still sleep with you on the first night, But I expect to do it again next week. Don't you know, >> but that's like the point is is that there are no there aren't two pathways to marriage. There's one pathway in today's day and age. Every relationship starts out as a one night stand in

the sense that unless you're in some sort of arranged marriage. You initiate a sexual relationship without any commitment or guarantee that you'll ever See the other person again in your life. And if you play your cards right and you're attracted enough to each other, that one night stand becomes a two night stand. And you still don't really have any safety or guarantees or commitment. And you just have to play that game until the days and the weeks and the months string together long enough that you can then begin to enter into discussions around commitment because

that's what our for better or for worse Is how our culture says this is how we do things. Now, leading with commitment is not going to go very far, especially with men who are probably in their 30s or 40s, which is when those are the men that the women in their 30s are targeting for marriage. Imagine she's like, "I'm a born again virgin or I don't want to take things slow." The guy's like, "What?" It's like, "I got it's the other the shoes on the other foot. Like, I'm a successful, attractive Man. I have tons

of options now. you made me one of your options in the 20s or you didn't even look my way while you had lots of options. So on some level men in their 30s and 40s when they're shamed are kind of acting the way that women acted in their 20s which is basically to say that human beings find it hard to resist the temptation of experiential optionality. >> Well, there's a lot of of shame with guys in their in their 40s. Look, I'm 45. I have a lot of my friends are either that age cuz they

uh and and single cuz they worked really hard on a on a business and they never actually dedicated any time to real relationships or they're divorced or something along those lines. They'll go, "Man, am I being a creeper, dude? I met this 27-year-old." And I'm like, "No, but I'm not. A lot of people are going to think that you are being creepy doing that." And we were like, "But why is that?" And The answers are are kind of uncomfortable. And there's a lot of societal shaming that I actually think comes from again the uh the

policing of the age gap comes from a lot of places where it's like no no no we want men to feel ashamed for dating younger women like that because it makes it harder one for older women to date those same men which they also want. So it it eliminates competition and you can also create almost like a a shame funnel Where it's like all right we're going to make this an offlimits age group for the guy therefore increasing my chances of of getting a mate in that same category. It's true and there's it goes even

deeper than that and it's kind of you know tangentially related to let's say the the health or the beauty at any size campaigns that women in most places ostensibly support and celebrate. There's this really fascinating study. It's long been shown that women that men Find women with longer hair to be more sexually attractive and women tend to know this. There was a study in which women asked other women how much hair they should get taken off at their next haircut. >> And they always say a ton. >> It was related to how attractive the woman

getting the haircut was. The more attractive she was, the more women on average told her to take more hair off, >> right? Shave your head. >> It's so courageous. You're so bold. You look great with that kind of cut. That's what comes out of their mouth. And they may not even be conscious of it, but they're kind of working in a way to disqualify them as intraexual competitors for the same men. >> That's interesting. That's fascinating. >> It women are playing like 10D chess with each other. >> But I I don't want to I I

want to be careful not to sort of like say women do This and demonize them because I I don't even know how much this is. >> I'm not demonizing them. I think that's clever. >> It's It's either clever or possibly completely operating at a subconscious level. But that doesn't necessarily change whether or not it's clever. I don't think cleverness has to be conscious. >> Uh that's interesting. I I just I'm being careful here because I don't want People to think like, oh, we're putting women in this bucket of they're uh evil planning uh they're evil

in planning something is a cabal. Uh maybe as a Jew, I'm sensitive to that kind of talk. Um >> I don't think they're getting together and having meetings about how they do this, but like >> does having a plan make you evil? I I mean I think again I think it's smart as a guy who taught guys to have a particular plan to be more successful in Dating and mating. No, I don't think it's evil. I think it's smart and I think you leverage what you can when you're in a competitive market. You do the

same thing for your business. >> If it works in business, it works in dating. >> That's right. I'd love to talk about why dating apps don't work for most people. I I found this topic fascinating. I've never really had to date online. Uh, I never used it really even when it did Exist. It was sort of again match.com days and it was like no thanks. I back then that was for old people and I was like 27 and it was like I can go out to a bar and meet five new women tonight that may

go out with me at some point and I I can fart around match.com for five months and maybe meet a couple of people that way and they're all like five to seven years older than me. That was not working for me at that time. Well, dating apps are interesting. I was An early adopter of dating apps. I got on my first one probably in 2001. >> I found them to be really interesting >> for some reason. And I do recall that the general attitude towards dating apps back then were they were for losers. They were

for weirdos who for whatever reason can't meet another human being in real life. >> Yeah. Fast forward 25 years and more than 50% of couples that got married this year in the United States met on a Dating app. Yeah. >> And that has basically tripled in the last decade. So it's gone from being a fringe >> uh technology to being completely mainstream. So to say that it doesn't work for people is probably wrong because >> well it doesn't work for a lot of casual dating. I mean >> it can I suppose so? The stats are

pretty grim, I think. Um, yes, people Get married by meeting online, but you find a lot of Well, let me I I suppose let me explain this. A lot of it seems like the top 1% of guys and and these are from stats that I got from like match the match company like a lot of the people who who write books about this thing uh I should say whistleblowers it's sort of an extreme example but people who've worked in these apps will say things like the top 1 to 5% of men get like 98% of

the Matches and it might even be more than that. It's just hard to quantify this. I've heard it more of the Pareto like the top 20 get 80%. But >> that's for sure, Veru. But it's also like the top one get an even stronger >> crazier. You are a hot dude >> and you've got some good pictures of your chiseled abs. You're going to clean up on dating apps for sure. It's going to be a casual sex funnel. >> It is. And there I' I've seen this just With my friends as well. I've got a

buddy who's a model and I've got a bunch of normal friends. I actually have two friends that are models and a bunch of normal friends. Those guys will be in the same geographic area in the exact same app. And my friends are successful, good-looking people with six figure jobs. This model is like a crypto trader, but he's a model and he does they're in the same income bracket. Let's say he will, we will go out to Lunch, the guys will get universally zero matches, but he will get 35. If you do this with women that

are uh various levels of attractive and they're on dating apps in a geographic area, again just anecdotally friends of mine, some will get 10 to 80 matches over the course of one meal. Others will get hundreds, I'm not exaggerating, hundreds of likes or matches or whatever while we are eating dinner or lunch that will happen in the same area. So there There's a an assessment and again probably not scientific where you see like nine out of 10 women and the arrows pointing to the guy at the top and then you see the guys at the

bottom getting almost nothing from that same group. It's really hard if you're not an attractive guy to get anywhere on a dating app. It's very hard if you are short guy. I mean, there is zero evidence that men's height correlates with being loyal or kind or a good Father or all the things that women say with their mouths that they want from a man, they just don't get matches. It's It's tragic. >> It is. Uh it's you I think you say this in the book. Men think they have an endless supply of women. Some men

on these apps. Women think they're being chased by a million men. That's the perception that's created. Even if they don't get matches, the unsuccessful man, at least when he starts, does operate Under that illusion, which is there's just >> in New York City, Los Angeles, a major metro area, you will never run out of people to swipe on functionally. So even if you have to be burnt out for a long time to finally give up on them because it's almost like a a gambling addict chasing the jackpot. It's like one more pull. The next one's

going to be lucky cuz on some level that's an accurate Statistical assessment in in infinite set. There has to be you have that that machines got to pay out at some point. You know what I'm saying? >> I I also this is probably a little outdated, but I also wonder how current some of these profiles are. This is years ago, but I was married. I don't know if we know if we were married yet, and one of her friends is like, "I got bad news. I saw Jordan on Tinder." And she's like, "Are you on

Tinder?" And I Was like, "No." And then we looked and found this ancient photo of me that she's like, "Oh, this is you. Yeah, you would you would never use this photo." Like, like it was so obviously like my husband did not this is an old account. Because it's like if I was really using Tinder, this is the last freaking profile photo I would use. I'm like 40 lbs heavier wearing a hat and just like, you know, something stuck in my teeth. That's hilarious. So, I saw an Instagram The other day that said basically like

real players when they go out on dates, they wear clothes that were fashionable 5 years ago. So, if there's any photographic evidence, they could say that there was an outdated picture. >> Like I have a popped collar. Do you really think that's like I'm wear Yeah, that's that's actually that's really smart. They're wearing like a Theronos hat, >> something like that, you know? >> Yeah. uh >> Trump was 2016 or something like that. >> That's really funny. Um >> women have to look I'm sympathetic to women on the dating apps. Uh it was screening for

height. >> It's hard for women too. It's just hard in different ways and both sides kind of think that they could live with the other side's problems. >> I think so. Uh I heard a really good Theory. I wonder what you think of this. So my buddy said, "Look, I'm sympathetic." He tells his clients, he's also a coach. He tells his clients, "If you're under six feet, don't really bother with the apps cuz it's actually easier to approach in real life and meet women that way cuz you're not getting screened out. If you're over 6

feet, you can use the apps because you're going to get screened in by a lot of these filters." And I was like, "Oh, that's so Terrible. These women are so shallow." W he's like, "No, let me pause you right there, Jordan. Women have to screen somehow because they get a 100red matches in an hour." So they start to screen by more arbitrary and less important to them factors over and over. So it's like a woman who would absolutely go out with you even though you're quote unquote only 5'8 and making 80K a year and you're

a dental hygienist, she doesn't care about that. But when she has 250 people that day to screen through, she's going to screen for income and height because what the hell, she still has 40 guys to sift through at the end of raising that slaughter. might for like attached versus detached earlobes at that point. So it's like when women have that kind of optionality, >> just being an attractive, tall, rich man is not enough. >> It's not enough. >> Like you see this most obviously if you talk to folks who live in Dubai. Dubai is like

the pinnacle of this phenomenon. Sometimes guys, especially young guys, they make a lot of money in crypto. They're worth 50 hundred million dollars. They're thinking, "I'm gonna buy a Lambo and go to Dubai and date all of these smoke shows." Turns out every guy's got a Lamborghini, >> right? >> And that woman went on a date yesterday With a billionaire. So like, your money ain't >> ain't good here. We just assume that you're rich and we assume that you have a Lamborghini. So therefore, it doesn't matter anymore in my criteria process. Oh [ __ ]

M >> maybe that guy would have been better played sticking in a smaller pond and being a bigger fish. >> Just buy a million followers on TikTok and uh have some professionally produced Videos. Now you have the fame lever that a lot of those other crypto bros don't have. But then you're on the radar of the authorities. Have fun in Dubai. Um but I I really I I do feel like the the dating levers are screwed up online. And like that's why I'm saying it doesn't necessarily work for men and women cuz they're like I

have to screen for income and height and detached or attached earlobes and I don't care about that but I otherwise have so much choice that It's screwing me up. There was a study and man I wish I'd come prepared with this but there was a study they did and it was like even at religious it was like a at BYU or something like a religious university and they found out a Mormon religious university like very >> you're going to get married by the time you graduate most likely. >> Right. And they found that in certain,

they did this at more than one place, but they found that in certain pools, Women were more promiscuous when they quote unquote had to be, like there were way more women than men. And they were way less promiscuous when there were way more men than women. And you see this in dating economies like New York, for example, where for a man, it's like if you're dating in New York, you think, "Oh my god, it's so hard. There's all these finance guys. It's going to be impossible." Dating in New York is awesome for guys. It's really,

really Hard for women. It's K County store. Um, and this also plays into traditional gendered expressions of behavior. So like some of the most feminine women in the world in the traditional sense of behavioral expression are in Russia. And Russia is one of the major markets with the largest gender disparity. There's like almost 60% women to 40% men. So the intraexual competition for even just an average guy is intense. >> And in addition to that, the women live A lot longer, I think, than the men in that particular country as well. So you end up

with like yes, it's 40 60, but then when you take people who are like in the dating pool, like not dead, not married, not grandpas, you have a even higher disparity. And then it's like, oh, I want somebody who can afford to actually raise a family and doesn't work in a mine or isn't drafted in Ukraine right now. women are not only very performatively feminine, but they're Also very sexually aggressive. >> It's like they know what guys want. They know what guys like, and they cater to those desires, >> which is a great way of

getting what you want. Again, if it works in business, it works in dating. It's like, if I show up with the skill set that you're looking for as an employer and I do a good job, you will reward me with a paycheck. It's not just you don't show up and be like, I want a paycheck. In fact, you in most professional hiring processes, you don't even talk about the compensation until like the very last meeting and it's kind of in this indirect way or it's through proxies in the contracts and lawyers and things like that.

Most of the time it's about demonstrating that I could be of value to you. >> That's yeah, that's that's a sort of market disparity issue, right? When I negotiate my contracts, for example, It's a different I hold the power in that equation, right? Because there's just not that many podcasts that have this amount of audience. So, my agent goes in and goes, "Well, we want this much and we want this." And then Sirius XM and Podcast One and I whatever Odyssey throw down their numbers and he goes, "Nah, that's not good enough." And it's too

long. and they go they there's this game of where they pretend that that's unacceptable and that they really That's how they do all their deals and he goes I don't care and then he just goes to the next place and the numbers go like they don't it's not like this I mean it's like boom it's like we're just beginning this process it's liftoff um you can do that in tech too like if you're an AI expert you go to Dropbox and they're like we're going to give you 250k and you go oh well thanks for

having me come in uh I appreciate it I have a meeting at Snapchat I will uh be Well maybe we'll we'll be back in touch. And they're like, "Wait a minute." Because they know you're worth $2.5 million. >> Well, as I talk about in the book, the most powerful player in any relationship, whether it's romantic or professional, gets more of what he or she wants and less of what he or she doesn't, which is why people seek after power. It's not for its own sake. It's what power can do. That makes sense, Right? And generally

it's in the professional arena the company that has more power. It's like in most cases the employee needs that job more than the employer needs that employee. The only way to potentially turn that on its head is to become just like a rock star in what you do. And then you're probably not an employee anymore. So you're not even in that situation. you've launched your own thing at that point because it's just better to hold The cards and offer the opportunities to others than to use even your mastery and cache to seek opportunities from those

who can give them and then therefore take them away. It's interesting. I've got I've got some sort of I got to be careful how I phrase this like very highly qualified unicorny type people in tech that I'm friends with that go from like ' 90s Google employee to seuite at Amazon and it's actually insane how the Numbers they're throwing around and it's just it's it's crazy and it's like oh we want you to we want you to move to this place oh okay what are you going to offer me Well, we'll give you a relocation

bonus of X. No, I'm going to need 20 times that. Okay, done. What else do you need? Well, maybe they say done. Or maybe they price themselves out of the marketplace. And and they almost certainly can't work for the next big thing because they don't have the war Chest to hire somebody like that. This happens with athletes all the time is they're used to these enormous contracts and it's very hard for people to take a step backwards with respect to their compensation. They'll only do that for some sort of like really meaningful passion project and

only once they have enough money. >> Yeah, exactly. I was going to say that the people I think of, they'll take they would take a job for basically zero Because when you have $500 million, what's the difference if you're enjoying what you're doing? But you're right. Uh at that point in tech, you go for equity, right? I know you can't afford 2.5 million, so I'll take 250k, but I want 10% of the company. And people can price themselves out of the sexual marketplace as well, though it's more likely that women will do this than men.

>> Speak to that. >> Well, women just have more options than Men do. And this is also especially when they're young. And the tragic thing is that typically that switches over the course of a lifespan, whereas young women tend to be more powerful and have more options than young men. And that switches I say around the age of 30. Around the age of 30 is where the average man and the average woman are pretty much equal power structure and then the man becomes more powerful for the first time in his Life and for the rest

of his life. And so it could be the case that a very attractive woman who's 22 can be flown out by a prince in Saudi Arabia and could be courted by millionaires and flying first class to their yachts in the Mediterranean and they get anchored at that price point. It's going to be very difficult for them to accept a lower offer. But she's also potentially losing her Marketplace value as a function of time, which is going to make it more difficult for her to secure those kinds of perks from men who are as attractive that

she's used to dealing with. And so, a lot of this comes down to maybe trying to sell a house in a bad market, especially if you don't need the money right away. A lot of homeowners aren't going to sell at a loss. They'll just say, "Well, I'll just hold on to it." even if that potentially means that it's Just going to lose even more money. Sometimes the right thing to do is just to cut your loss as quickly as possible and to accept the fact that you're not going to you're not going to profit on

every transaction that you do, but that's very hard psychologically for anybody to do. >> It is. Yeah, it's tough. So, I mean, I know you're being careful with how you phrase that, and I appreciate that. It's It sounds like I I mean, what's this the Play when you're in your 20s as a woman? enjoy as much as you can, but then get more realistic as you enter your 30s with >> because that's what they're doing >> in general. And that's >> running into some some difficulties for sure. I made an episode called What Women Want

where I explored that question and the short answer is that women want what other women want, which is true, but not very satisfying. So if You want to know what women want, you have to look at what other women are doing and especially through the lens of social media because that's generally how we look at people these days. And if you look at the type of women that most women are looking at, what are they doing? They're doing everything. They are boss [ __ ] and they have their own company and they're doing TED talks,

but they also are married and they have three kids and they're vacationing in The Maldes and they're a girls girl and they they'll go out with their ladies to the Miami nightclubs or it's like they're doing everything. Of course, this is a highlight reel and it's very heavily curated and they have they're often very beautiful and very rich and very exceptional people. Uh so sometimes people forget about those qualifiers, right? And so if you as a woman want to do all of the things, then you have to be Careful about the order in which you

do things because if doing A means that it blocks off the pathway to B, then you got to be sure to do B first before you do A. >> Okay. Can you put it put that in a real world word? >> The real world context, especially what we're talking about is having kids. When you have young children, unless you are very rich and don't want to be an involved mother, you're not going to be Going to Dubai. You're not going to be going out to the clubs with your girlfriends. You're not going to be having

Michelin star dinners. You're not going to you're going to be at home trying to keep your house from looking like a disaster zone like we were discussing earlier. >> Um, >> and that forecloses some opportunities. And so and especially so it's like okay I I I do want to have The messy kids and the family and things like that. So I'll do that after I go to the nightclubs and I go travel around the world and I get a master's degree and I start my business when I think realistically it might make more sense to

do it the other way around. It's, as I say, the kind of bitter truth is if a woman at 38 who's been a career Woman all of her adult life suddenly decides that she wants to be a wife and mother, it's going to be difficult for her. But if a woman who's been a mother up until she turns 38 decides she wants to become an employee, she can do that. She can have that experience if she really wants to. She could go get a master's degree at 38. She could travel around the world probably in

more sustainable luxury at 38 than at 22 if she's flying on her own dime, of course. So, it it does kind of push things back, but it makes sense to kind of strike when the iron is hot. And the iron is hot for women when they're young. It's like that's when they have they're more attractive. And attraction is the most relevant power in romantic relationships. So that's when they have the most power. And you kind of want to negotiate The best offer that you can while you're still the more powerful player. And you're not going

to be the more powerful player except in some very rare circumstances when you get into your 30s and 40s as a woman. This is a really uncomfortable truth for people to hear. >> But it's like I was not consulted in the design phase with respect to human reproduction. This is just how it is. >> Yeah. I think because I when I say anything that even remotely looks like This online, I get people going well I get people sort of straw manning like how dare you imply that a woman is only valuable when she's young and

in her 20s which is not what I'm saying. >> Not what I'm saying either. >> Um but also like no women are like fine wine. They get better with age. Look, they're smarter, they know more things, they're better sexually, etc., whatever. Um, and I believe that as well, but I think, can we can we sort of put a finer Point on this? Cuz I think a lot of people when they hear this are like, "This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He's this is a bunch of crap. Women in their 20s. Who would ever

date one of You get guys who say, "I would never date one of those. What are they going to talk about?" >> Well, I think that that's true is I have dated some very young women in their early 20s and I don't enjoy dating them. I find them on the whole to be dull and Uninteresting. And their brains haven't fully developed yet, which means that they're having trouble with basic adulting skills like emotional regulation and >> effective communication. And I just find that dull. I don't have the time or the inclination to train somebody for

a relationship. You have to come with the skills already. Okay. So that's not my romantic ideal, but it does seem like according to all the research that Consistently no matter how old they are, men say that women in their early 20s are the most attractive women on the planet. >> Interesting. >> And that never that doesn't change that the guy is 18 or 80 years old, they still want 22 year old, at least as a sexual partner. >> I see. Now, um, yes, older women often have a lot more to speak to for themselves. Like,

They're often professionally accomplished. They can be intelligent. They can be experienced. They often have much fewer hang-ups around sex, which is great, too. It's like it can take >> a long time to make an 18-year-old feel comfortable about initiating a sexual relationship. A four-year-old is like, "I think you're cute. We're both adults. let's do this. It's like it's almost >> this huge relief to just deal with Someone who's direct and doesn't have a lot of the baggage >> that young women are saddled with by their families and their cultures around sex. Like we don't I

I don't know how to do this, but we certainly don't teach women how to handle that power correctly. It's either we shame it and good girls don't do this or it's like you you just are shaking your booty on Instagram for millions of people. Like there has to be some mature middle Ground there. But you know >> how dare you. Yeah. >> But at 18, you know, I wasn't mature either. So it's like maturity is maybe that's asking too much of 18-year-olds. But here's the here let me get to the point which is that all

those things that's maybe older women have more to offer the the careers the experience the maturity the cat decides what milk is good and I don't look at a woman and think oh man Check out the master's degree on that one you know what I'm saying it's like damn she looks like she can communicate her emotions effectively credentials >> right so it's like that's not attraction. That's like the guy saying, "I'm nice and sweet and kind. Why don't any women want me?" It's the same thing with different variables and women have to understand that. So,

um, unfortunately, the attraction comes first. And it's not for women to decide, Well, men should find it hot that a woman is intelligent and educated and experienced. It's like the cat decides what milk is good. You don't get to decide those things. >> Yeah. some some guys who maybe are a little bit more self-actualized realize that might be better for them, but doesn't really change the base switches of physical attraction. It sounds like that's what you're saying. >> I think that's certainly true. And I'll Go one step further, which is I think that this is

kind of a failure of interexual understanding, which is that I think that, and you see this in both men and women in today's day and age, but since we're talking about women, we'll talk we'll continue that is that in general, we know that women like successful, competent, powerful men. That's what they're drawn to. It's like no accident that all of their romance novels are about like Mysterious hot billionaires or are some kind of like mythological creature that could otherwise murder them. You know what I'm saying? So that's what women are kind of attracted to. But

the failure of interexual understanding is basically whether it's conscious or not, they say, "Oh, that's what I'm attracted to. Therefore, that's what must be attractive. Period. Therefore, I will embody those things and therefore become more attractive to Men because that's just what's attractive. There's no difference between men and women. That's just objectively attractive. And that's not true. >> You see it with guys in today's day and age where it's like, okay, maybe what's it what are they attracted to in women traditionally? It's kind of like femininity about gentleness, about softness, vulnerability, being open with their

feelings. And so like a lot of Modern men are leading with that. They're becoming more feminine and modern women are becoming more masculine because they think it's what the other party wants. We were talking about that earlier. They're trying to signal, I can give you what I think that you're looking for because if I can't signal that, you have no reason to even speak to me, >> right? >> But I think that We have to potentially approach the possibility that men and women are attracted to different things in each other. I I I don't think

that that's super controversial. I mean, yes, I'm going to get angry people emailing both of us about this, but I think I my listeners are relatively sophisticated, uh, the men and the women. And I think a lot of people, especially in their 30s and 40s, are going to go, "Yeah, that tracks." I think when I I think it's a Lot of young people tend to have like these very black and white opinions about >> ideologies about the way that things should be. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And they believe that they're performing part of the solution

by maintaining values aligned with those that framework of how they would prefer to see the world. >> Mhm. >> Okay, fair enough. But I think that more Or less you're more effective if you decide what is and not what should be or ought to be and plan your strategies around reality. I've uh I've seen a lot of age gap policing among dating and I I I literally the other day to to your point I said something like a 40 year old man 42-y old man dating a uh 28-year-old woman is not abnormal. It's a big

age gap but it's it's not like insane and this this woman said you are Literally mentally ill and someone should check your hard drive. kind of a funny roast, but >> but it's interesting like I'm pretty sure those women are consenting enthusiasts participants in that. So why isn't that that woman is has damaged daddy issues? >> Like it was >> that would probably be more effective in changing the dynamic than trying to shame men. Women are more sensitive to Shame than men are. So if you shamed the women, >> the large age gaps would probably

disappear more quickly than trying to shame men. I found so my brother is I think 43. I gota I have to have to check the papers. He married a woman. She was 27 but she's from Eastern Europe. And so the her parents they love him and they saw absolutely no problem with this whatsoever. >> Well I mean what are some of the things That women are attracted to? They want >> at least a man who is stable and can provide. guys in 22 year olds or even 27 year olds who can do that. Like one

in a a couple hundred if they got lucky in tech or something like that >> or they're like a farmer and they're working with their on their dad's farm and inherited that. >> The tech guy might have the provision, but they also might be an emotional Idiot because they've dealt with tools and codes his whole life and hasn't talked to a woman. So women also want emotional maturity and self-awareness. Guess what? You don't get those things at 23 or 24. In my case, you got to turn 40 before you figure some of your [ __

] out. >> So, if you want to understand women and yourself and to be successful and accomplish and have skills and be able to provide and strong enough to protect And willing to share, so generous enough to do that, it's like you you have to be looking at 30s men at least and probably in their 40s. Thank you for checking out this entire episode on YouTube. If you want to follow up on this topic, check out our podcast feed or visit us on our website at jordanharbinger.com where you can learn more about our guest and

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