The Dual Reality (fear, decision-making & authority) w/Jamie Winship

I said grab my gun put your hand on my gun he's like what touch my gun put your hand on it he said why and I said cuz nobody knows I'm here except my point here and he's not going to know what happened in but I need you to touch my gun because I'm going to say that you try to take my weapon she said to me listen your body will heal here's your problem you're bitter and your heart needs to heal cuz that's what's going to kill you I'm a Christian I'm an atheist they're

just names of gangs it doesn't mean anything about what's inside of you it bothers me when Christians go into other countries and break the laws of those countries and think it's it's okay cuz we're Christians when a Catholic priest comes running out of a house terrified like you didn't learn this in the Academy I can tell you right now she's just in like this white gown like a night gown but her eyes are like glazed over and she just walks up and she punches the dad knocks him flat on the ground if you can get

people to say what they're afraid of that Rim will come together in the best way possible I had to stand behind the guy doctor talking to her and he asked her can you hear voices in your head and she goes yes the greatest fear of every human when you get to it is this is what they believe I'm powerless and alone in the world everyone wants to get to the high places but if you want to go high you first have to go deep what's up welcome back to the deep end we have a treat

for you today Jake are you ready I'm really ready how excited are you on a scale of 1 to 100 one to 100 um I'm going to say an 85 because this is my first time meeting Jamie but I've heard so many great things about you um a lot of great people who learn from you so I'm like I'm really pumped leaving just a little Bit extra to get blown away 85 what is that a b that was an average yeah I know I don't know what that says about you I was like 85 God's

like Jamie we're going to take you to Nashville to Humble you with a 23-year-old producer who's never read your book 85 thank you hey so uh we have Jamie Winship on the show today here's his book you should buy it I've read it twice um I was joking earlier cuz I don't think I have any copies left because my my wife will buy them and give them away and we've given away a bunch of copies you probably hear that all the time but when a book is good it tends to not stay in your library

you just start giving copies away appreciate that yeah it's an Incredible Book guys you got to read it um but I was praying on Monday about the week and um I was in the shower I don't know if you pray in the shower is that weird yeah that is that's uh hadam they say in the Middle East okay it's an impure place to well I was breaking ritual by praying on Monday and and uh Holy Spirit showed up like in my in the shower and you can I could feel him he's like wanting to talk

and uh he was very excited he was like you ready for the week and I was like sure this is another week and he's like no it's a big week and I was like thinking I have an event on Friday it's like maybe it's the event he said no Wednesday I was like what is Wednesday oh Jamie's going to be in town I was like okay that sounds cool but what's the deal and he was like I really like him wow and I was like why why do you Really like him he's like I just

really like him and he showed me a picture of um you living a life that's chaos and crazy and yet in the moments in between you just like want to talk to God you want to talk to Holy Spirit and I don't know the picture I saw I don't know if you were driving or something but you were obviously quite distracted because you were having a conversation with God and you doing something at the same time and he was just like that's how he lives and I really like that wow so apparently this is a

big deal to Holy Spirit that you're here so thank you w I received that that's beautiful that's encouraging thank you yeah certainly resonate with that I I'll give the the quick bio for um for you you you distinguish yourself in law enforcement in Washington DC um you a masters in English correct um you developed a unique process for conflict resolution and communication you have a interesting pedigree um you've done a lot how old are you 65 65 so you've been going for a while you've um trained Educators law enforcement government diplomats and uh you're the

co-founder of a company called identity exchange correct uh which is what you do fulltime now that's it yes amazing take take take us back how did you get here like what's some of the craziest stories of like how did you figure this out well I mean yeah I think about well I when I think about the journey that we're on because my wife Donna who's really the the brains behind Identity exchange um because I'm 65 we like we we tell our story sort of in Parts because we the first part of our life our married

life was in the police department first five years was in the and that that was a goal of my life was to be a police officer from age 14 on I knew that that's what God was inviting me into even though I didn't know it was God at the time I did know it was an invitation and I think what I think one thing for people if I could help them understand anything is that what God God is not giving people marching orders he's inviting them into things all the time yeah and and the difference

is huge if you think he's just sending you out to do stuff with you to come report back it's pretty difficult and discouraging but if you realize he's in front of you inviting you into things that he that he's saying you're just going to not believe this if you just come with me and watch you'll you'll never believe who you really are unless you come with me you'll never believe who I really am unless you come you'll never believe who your neighbor actually is unless you come with me and it's always this invitation into the

great commandment that's what it's in invitation into um to participating in love in the essence of God who is love in every way and all the time and so um so when I I mean I grew up in a religious very legalistic religious home and so by uh 8th grade I knew pretty much that God was going to be disappointed with me my whole life just from what I how how I was taught that he's he's mad all the time sort When Jesus died it kind of made him a little bit nicer but not totally

you're still in trouble all the time because of every thought that you ever have is wicked and so that's hard to break out of you know especially when it's the it's what you hear from zero to 14 years old yep it's hard to get out of the fear guilt and shame all the time and so the very first time I would say I experienced he hearing you know we we're limited to language but the voice of God or the movement of the holy spirit in my heart I didn't even know what it was I just

knew that it was other than me and greater than anything I'd ever experience the reason I didn't know I didn't think it was God was because I was in a movie theater when it happened which is a place that I was told God can never go and neither can we he's not powerful enough to go to the no he's not he can sort of get in a g movie but after that he's locked outside can't get can't get in um yeah so uh so I to see to see why he was barred from I was

told he couldn't go into bowl and alleys and movie theaters so I don't know why it was those two places in particular but so then when I went I so I snuck into a movie theater and it was an rated movie which I didn't even know at the time I didn't know what the movie was but it was the movie Serpico by alpacino playing New York City Cop uh Frank Serpico and I was in there and I was so moved by the story and the music and the cinematography all of it um that I it

was uh it was it was like a lightning strike into my spirit and it just my spirit rose up to it and it struck like lightning and I knew that that that it Was an invitation to be that this is who you are this is this is who I've made you to be I'm inviting you into this and I and so I knew it was the most beautiful thing I cried the whole time and I it I I knew it was not me I knew it was beyond me but I didn't know exactly who it

was because it wasn't in the right God couldn't come in that location and in that scenario couldn't speak through a movie that's for sure and so it was I've learned in my life that when God comes uh to meet you he meets you in the strangest places yeah um where can I go from your spirit Lord as David asked even into the depths of sh yet you are there incredible to understand that about God and so because because it was such a powerful thing and I knew it was an invitation to me at in eth

grade I knew that I needed to respond to it because you know the Hebrew word for obey is to hear and respond to hear and respond that's the and and that hearing and responding is greater than sacrifice the scripture says don't sacrifice for me just listen to what I say and respond to the invitation wow so at the end of the movie I because I was a good Independent Baptist and I also knew that God couldn't do anything if he didn't go forward um he doesn't like ideas in the back so at the end of

the movie I went forward up onto the little stage in the theater and stood up on the stage crying and uh oh my God yeah I had to make it official like an alter call yeah exactly only it was an rated alucino alter call and I was standing on the stage and I Could look up you know this is this is in the 70s and I was looking up and I could see the guy in the projection booth just staring at me like what what are you doing and uh but it was cool looking up

into the light you know I was looking up to the light and the crits were going and I just said I'm GNA be that it was nothing that I was going to do it was about being that I'm going to be that whatever that was police officer um and so that began a whole season of my life all the way through you know High School into University and I was so because I knew what I wanted to be I knew what not to do and what to do so early on it's revisionist at this point

but I could look back and go being informs doing all the the way good or bad you know being inform forms doing so um because the only organizing principle of any living system is identity there's not there's nothing else in our reality to organize around other than identity and if the identity is true and authentic it the the the result is an open system that's reciprocal and other focused and for the good of the other and it'll die for the other but but if the identity is corrupted it becomes a parasitic identity good cell bad

cell good cell reproduces it it knows when its lifespan is over and it dies according to the rhythm of what its gift is to the body but a corrupted cell will destroy the whole body feeding itself so then you you know so then you can look at whole countries that operate that way in societies so anyway so so I just knew don't don't commit Laren don't break laws because you're going to be on a polygraph when you're 21 that was how I Lived I didn't need someone telling me what to do and not to do

my being was driving me to get into that police department so all through University why did I study hard for that reason it just motivated everything I I did met Donna while I was in university and um and then into the police department in the five years into the police department so that whole first season of our life was all centered around that whole journey that started really at 14 all the way up 23 went into the police department incredibly because along the way and this is this so you have seasons and in those Seasons

you have very certain individuals that just come in and blow your Paradigm out of the water and there's not many of them and you can either receive what they're doing and offering you to you or reject it because it's too scary or whatever and so when I was 17 I I I was in the hospital because of a injury and wrestling tournament and uh and I only played Sports cuz I knew it would help me in the police academy I didn't care about spth I actually cared about literature but um and so I was in

this wrestling incident and hurt my leg severely and I went into the hospital and the I I I was afraid it was going to keep me out of the police academy the because of the physical damage and so when I woke up after the surgery uh all I cared about was like can I pass a police physical because I was getting ready to turn 18 and uh the doctor's like I don't know you're not playing sports anymore and this amazing physical therapist woman comes in and sit next to Me and she's the first person that

ever talked to me about Jesus in a way that went right in line with the invitation at 14 every other presentation of God that I heard my whole life was like a different planet to me it just didn't make any sense um but so she came in and she she said to me I'll never forget she said listen she was a 27-year-old single mom from West Virginia that worked her way through nursing school at night just this amazing human and she said to me listen your body will heal here's your problem you're bitter and your

heart needs to heal wow because that's what's going to kill you and so I cussed her out to validate her point and I wouldn't even talk to her I just every swear word I can think of I said to her and she got up and backed up and I was yelling at her and she left and she got to the door she looked at me and she goes I'll see you tomorrow and smiled at me and she came back every day like she had never met me dang every day and I never seen anybody like

that like everything I said to her was like it was gone and and so like by the third day of her working with me and she'd say the same thing to me all the time and she started to talk a little bit about herself and she say it's the heart it's the heart it's the most important thing and talk a little bit about her life around the third day I was I realized realized that she was and this is this Is big on my mind lately she was a paradigm of living she wasn't trying to

tell me a message she was she was a model of something that God wanted me to see and that's very different than a person just trying to convert you or you know get you to switch teams she was demonstrating something to me how do we know that God loves us he demonstrated his love in that while we were his enemies he died for us and so so I I knew I knew there was a lot of great you know healthc care people in that hospital nobody she was bringing her identity into her vocation and I

could recognize like she is different than any she's she's she's actually trying to make me well that's what she's doing she's healing me and of course she's in this vocation and and the other thing I observed was her love is greater than all of my hostility it just swallows up my hostility as if it didn't even it's just my hostility poweress to her absolute immediate forgiveness of everything I said or did and it was just so beautiful to watch and so my prayer my sort of Salvation prayer when I was released from the hospital because

I don't know her name and I've never ever seen her again though we've looked for her for many years she um I said to God can you make me a police officer like she's a nurse like that's the only way I knew how like can I be a police officer with that kind of power with that kind of with that to be could I walk in a hostile room like she does and just absorb the hostility into my love like She's doing it to me every day and and she's drawing me into the kingdom with

it's an invitation to be like her I One Day in heaven she's going to stand up you know at the awards banquet and millions of Muslims are going to cheer because of her wow because she spent 5 days with a loud mouth nasty mouth 17-year-old and that translated into all the people you've reached everyone is because of Herz because she just kept coming back every day like I never insulted her and um you know I don't know of course she's I don't know what she knows maybe she's read the book I don't know but um

and so into the police department with her as a model in my mind through the police academy all of that stuff and then out on the street um pass my had to survive my training officer who who was the best discipl I'd ever met but you know not a Believer and so and then into those years and then discovering can can God how can God make me a police officer like he made her a nurse can he show me how to do police work different than anything the police academy taught me not in not in

not in spite of it or over it just beyond it like yeah they taught us all these things and it's good but they're teaching you basically how to fight and how to arrest I wanted to learn how to bring peace and forgive and re Empower like people like that and so there's no training manual for it Church doesn't talk about it so those years were all development with me and the Lord and me asking him questions like can you break Up a domestic dispute so we never have to come back again and you because we're

going to be back here again and again um until someone dies or someone goes to prison and that's all we can ever come up with like we can't think of any other idea all the Christians all the Christian cops doing exactly the same thing as a non-Christian cops and so like is there another way to do run the criminal justice system and I just didn't see anyone asking those questions I'd be in church on Wednesday night and Sunday it's like a different planet again it's like what are we talking about and then I got to

go out here and be in this world which has no effect on the one we're out there so so those years through the police department really learning that God speaks really well and he's really good at police work and he's really good at all the vocations if we if we would listen to him and invite him in into it and then um and then I got in the next Once I kind of understood all that you know and you know was off of the year and made investigator and all that good stuff um started training

rookies how to hear from God which was hilarious um because it made them good police officers that's simply what it was this as practical as like how good do you want to be and I would say I would say that's amazing it's practical I know well I mean there's so many times I did things with was I would say just watch what happens when I do watch what happens when I do this like we'd be in the middle of this screaming yelling domestic dispute and I would say and they're doing the right they come in

you separate the parties and I would say okay look watch this watch this and I would just say just to just quietly in the name of Jesus I just I just shut down every voice that's not of God in This room and watch the violence level drop in the room to where the rookie could just watch it go and then when he when we would get outside they would say how did you and I said well okay now you got to be in the Kingdom to do this kind of police work so it's up to

you you can do the standard thing but if you want to get to this level you have to be in the Kingdom so you let me know if you want to be in the kingdom and be a police officer like that you can it's up to you or not what was one of the crazy moments that happened there when like one what was one of those moments that just blew people's minds in the moment when you were praying a bunch well like so one of one of the rookies I train he's I don't know he's

probably the chief of police somewhere now he um he so when he came on with me so by the time by the time they the police department has asked you to train rookie so by the time you get to that place they kind of know what you do you have a reputation of how you train and and so he came on with me and he he right away told me CU my reputation was that this he thinks he can hear from God that's that was my reputation the beauty of it is Jesus said by your

fruit they know you MH so the reason nobody challenged me or like thought it was stupid was cuz they would just look at my cases I didn't never debate anyone I just said that's how I work look how we work this case that's how he did it so when he came on he said to me right away the first day he said I just want you to know that I I'm a Christian and I'm like that means zero to me that means nothing to me why just out of just just just because it's just I

always say people that's just the name of a gang that's a gang name like I'm a blood I'm a I'm a Christian I'm an atheist they're Just names of gangs it doesn't mean anything about what's inside of you you don't even know what's inside of you right but that felt good for him yeah and so I said just we're we're out here in this world now and what what we want to know is what does it mean to be in the kingdom of God because Jesus didn't come to invite people to be Christians he came

to bring the Kingdom so what does that mean an officer in the Kingdom an officer that that's views themselves as not in the kingdom and so working day work pretty quick um working day work just kind of you know running the- mill stuff in a pretty affluent neighborhood we were assigned a pretty aent neighborhood it's all in DC you know metropolitan area and we get a we get a call on the radio that it's an unknown situation um at this address so we go to the address and when we pull up so I'm telling them

you know unknown situation be super careful we don't know what's going on here someone dialed 911 said I need I need we need the police and that was the end of the call so we come up we pull up to the house we're just like observing the house uh the front door is open and so get out of the car and we're like spread out and walking towards the house like this and this Catholic priest comes running out of the a Catholic priest oh oh boy running out of the house and and he runs up

to me and he goes he goes he said I'm glad you guys are here I'm glad you guys are here and just jumped in his car and drove away so I told the rookie I said when a Catholic priest comes running out of a house Terrified like you didn't learn this in the Academy I can tell you right now whatever is happening in that house they didn't teach you this in the academy so don't just let me lead on this one cuz I'm sure this is going to be difficult yeah so we go in the

house and then the rookie like I don't even as a Christian when you saw the Catholic guy run and like why is a Catholic priest there in the first place you know why was he called a lot of questions I know I was like it's not going to be good this is not going to be good so we go in there and um we walk in and the the homeowner the the father it turns out is standing there and he's all disheveled and freaked out and I'm like okay what's who's in the house who else

is in the house besides you I mean apparently someone's in the house that's can scare a Catholic priest but I'm not it's not you who else is in the house my daughter's in the house she's the only one in the house I'm like okay what is he what's he talking about what's going on here and he said well my daughter came went to went to college she's a freshman went to college somewhere and when she came back home she's she's talking about demons and Satan and that she thinks she's possessed and she's she's has suicidal

ideation he goes I don't know what to do so I just called the Catholic church because she's really having some kind of episode today and they came and that was him because that didn't work that apparently didn't work so we need 911 so I called the police and I said where is she so right away his description of the scenario the Christian police officer Has no idea what to do um because that doesn't equip you just you know you ask Jesus in your heart somewhere one day and so I said where is she where is

she right now what's she doing right now and he said she's down in in the room and then and so and I just I just told Jack just don't say just wait and she comes the girl comes walking down the hall she's like 21 or 22 and she's dress in like this white gown you know like a night gown kind of thing um and she comes walking down the very you know attractive young college student but her eyes are like glazed over and she walks in and so immediately so like I we just I just

step back from her you know like we don't know what she's going to do and she just walks up and she punch is the dad knocks him flat on the ground and so so when she does that so then I like move him behind her and you know restrain her and because we've worked a lot of cases with this similar kind of thing happens there is an element of like this person's really strong so I knew I knew it was going to happen so I grab her arms and she's like quite strong and so I

just I just kind of like move her like put my weight on her so she'll go down onto the ground she goes goes down on there and she starts to scream I don't know what's happening to me I don't know what's going on inside of me something I think I'm possessed I think Satan's inside of me and I'm like Whispering or to I'm just I'm saying calm down calm down you're safe with us you're safe with us the kingdom is here The kingdom is just whispering in her ear the kingdom is here and she calms

down and she lay I lay her down on her stomach hold her down Jack's over checking the father and then um so because of how now she's we know she's a threat she's gonna harm someone or herself so now we have this protocol we go in so so I just pull her hands behind her back and handcuff her you know behind her back and I'm and I'm talking to her the whole time and I I keep saying to her okay you're safe with us you're safe with us the kingdom is here in the name of

Jesus just calm down in the name of Jesus just calm down just really quiet because demons don't you don't have to yell they can hear what you say I don't think they can read your mind but so you say it out loud but you don't have to yell it and so she's C she calms down and I said okay I'm gonna I'm gonna lift you up and me this is this is I told her the name of my rookie we're we're both in the Kingdom I think he came in the Kingdom right about that time

was his first he like there's proof like Lord if I'm not in the Kingdom get me in there right now and so we lift her up stand her up and she's really calm and so walk her out to the car and and he my Ricky is looking at me like what and I'm just like and so put put her in the car and um we move around so now at this point we have to take her for a psych evaluation we don't have an option the father's you know going to follow us so she we

get in the car and we're driving and she to the place and she says to me um cuz her voice which switch you know not super dramatic but you could tell there was like so because she was real Sweet and real soft spoken and very traumatized but then she would get this very strong voice and she said she looked she was looking at me in the mirror and she goes what's in your pocket that's she's handcuffed but she goes what's in your pocket well in my pocket I had a new testament that I just carried

with me all the time she goes what's in your pocket and I said what do you think's in my pocket and she goes the Book of Lies The Book of Lies is in your pocket and I said what's what's what's a lie in there God created man just to humiliate him he put him in a GU in the garden with no hope of ever that he God knew the whole thing was going to be a disaster and a failure and he knew they would fail and he put them in there just so they could fail

just just so that they would realize that everything that God wants for them they can't do it and they're always going to fail and they're always going to be a disappointment to God I was like wow he went to my church and then whoever that was talking and uh and so I did so I the rookie he was like looking at me and I just pul I pulled the Bible out of my pocket so he could see that this person was correct and I just laid it down and I said I said said what I

said it's not that's not true and we're not going to talk to you anymore so you just be quiet in the name of Jesus we're not talking to you anymore stop talking to me we don't want to talk to you so be silent in the name of Jesus and then she calms down and I say to I I I look at her and you know it's like a look they get in their eyes and I said what happened to you like how is this this can only be here because you believe something that's not true

that you have now agreed is true about you and that's the only way the enemy Can access you because the enemy's only weapon is deception and accusation that's all that's only weapons the enemy has nothing else so what do you believe about yourself or your world or that's not true that allows this access because we're going to help you get rid of that not that we're going to help you get rid of the falsehood that allows that to be present right right and so all this is just driving to the psych evaluation um and so

she tells me what happened to her when she went to wherever she went to college and she got a she wanted to live off campus and so there was an advertisement to live with some family and she went and they were this sweet family and she moved into their house and these weird things started happening with the family the family was very weird and bizarre and was obviously some predatorial thing and she got into it involved in it and she started crying she she goes and I did I've done things that can never be forg

given there's the LIE there it is Unforgiven unworthy dirty whatever and so once she believes that's true then the enemy has like the place to lock into right and so she can't God can't rescue her anymore he he might but not not anymore it's too late and so she wants to take her own life to get rid you know all that and so she's telling me all that and so I just I just walked her back out of it okay said this is what you believe is true it's not true and just quoting the scriptures

that tell you like there's that's not true God Loved You way before you did anything wrong that's not the condition all that stuff and she just calmed down And calmed down I said if you will if you will exchange the life for the truth the truth will set you free right it's not magic it's just the LIE is what the enemies locked on to let's exchange the lie that you believed for the truth and and what day did did you start believing the LIE let's go to the day we can do it and then Jesus

was there in that day with you what does he say about you and it just breeder it's almost like the nefarious movie have you seen that uhuh have you seen you've seen nefarious what do you like nefarious you it's pretty accurate well I you I don't know about that but it's it's that kind of principle so but here's what's sad about the system that we're in so so she's like I what what am I going to do and what are they're going to talk to me the doctor's going to talk I'm say just tell the

truth just tell the truth and you'll be okay so we get her there now she's all calm she like gets it she she has a grasp of forgiveness um and and in my mind I'm thinking just let me teach one class in a police academy and we could be we could be resolving so many problems but it's not about me trying to convert her to Christianity it's that's not about it's her knowing and experience the TR truth who Jesus is the way he is the truth he's the life her experiencing that and the truth releases

her she didn't I guess she was Catholic didn't leave cathol it wasn't even part of the conversation do you see so like in our Police Department you weren't allowed to You weren't allowed to um share your faith it's a absolute firing offense and so but I have boxes of letters of people I did this with written to the chief never the chief's like he I mean only met the chief a couple of times but he would send letter send a notice down to our Precinct and say congratulations on this nice letter that we received on

your behalf uh and the letters would always say things like wow we didn't know you taught police officers how to do this kind of thing like it's amazing that they're that well trained and and the chief would always be like yeah we're Progressive Police Department he took all the credit all the time for it and then there'd always be a little note at the bottom like if anyone ever complains you're fired so that was the the line you you walked so when we got to the hospital she uh we walked her in and I went

into the interview with her but I couldn't you know I had to I went I had to stand behind the guy doctor talking to her and he asked her he said to her do you believe can you hear voices in your head and I told her I said just tell the truth and I'm looking at her while she's and she goes yes I do and he and the doctor says do you think they're real and she said yeah this is this is our system question a person and I would answer the questions exactly the same

way she would and he said who do you think the voices are and she said well I think but there's the voice of God and then there's the voice of Satan and I'm watching him write his notes down how how he's evaluating her do you think Satan wants to hurt you he wants to hurt all of Us every answer she's giving is making her be incarcerated in our system right and so she goes through that then they the the last the last time I saw her during that shift was they took her and they put

her in a padded room because she's nuts you know she's paranoid psychotic and all that stuff believe Satan's trying to destroy her and everything and I just remember walking out of the hall and her face was in the window of the door and I could just see her and I go that's our system right there that's what we do to people we isolate them and we incarcerate him and and she's the demoniac that gets chained up outside of the village right and Jesus doesn't come to fix problems he comes to heal people that's what he's

doing they're just trying to fix a problem with her not no one's getting well and so anyway she they when they interviewed her later you know her father came and she was released and everything and they wrote this beautiful letter to the chief about you know the Catholic what the Catholic priests couldn't do your officers did do that's pretty I have tons of letters from that and so like for rookies to see something like that so that rookie um when he when we were like when I was evaluating you know after that session I said

to him what did you learn from that what we did with like procedurally what did you learn and he said I learn not to believe lies in my own life yes exactly right there you go that's the value of that for what an amazing story first of all you guys having fun oh yeah for those watching your wife Donna is here yes so she's proba I see You a few times looking at her you've probably heard all of this before yeah yeah there's um people will recognize a certain thread because I think you're the one

that taught this the three prayers silence the lies of the enemy block silence the lives of my own voice and gave you the mind of Jesus that was you correct yeah um there's a couple million people who are praying that now because you put it in a book um and they'll recognize that threat you're like I shut down every every livee the enemy my wife and I went through this I think with somebody um on your team last fall about let's go back and Steve do you know Steve yes yes so we were in a

living room in Colombia um I'll just give like really quick because I want to also tell you what happened um and then I have I have questions for you Jake are you good good okay so me and my wife are in this living room and Steve is taking us through one of your things where he's like let's find where Jesus is in the situation and we have different experiences cuz she's perfect and I'm riddled so God she goes back and she's in like a beautiful garden and um and I'm at Starbucks so like that's the

difference in our personalities um and the moment that I believed the first lie that opened me up to anxiety was when my businesses were starting to grow but they were growing out of control like rapidly fast I couldn't keep up with it And you know when this happens to like a when you're in the gang of Christianity um you're like well the hand of God is on me but sometimes the enemy will come to kill you with growth of course it's not just like he'll hurt you however you're susceptible to being hurt right so for

me it was I had all of so many hundreds of staff and I was just like we're we're on vacation in the Starbucks in Chicago and so I'm in this I'm going through this with Steve and I'm closing my eyes and I'm at this Starbucks and it's like oh there's Jesus as a barista making me coffee and I was like maybe I'm doing this wrong Jesus needs to have like a robe or something that's right he has an apron on and Jesus gives me the coffee and he was like I had I have so much

more to give you but all you wanted was coffee so I gave you what you asked me for Wow and the lie that I believed which is in my journal I had to go fact check this cuz he said the lie that that you believed was that it was all up to you and I wrote I found it in Chicago I have it in a journal of like this no one's coming to save me like this is all me right and then we went to that place go to the safe place where you and Jesus

are hanging out and he said it's all good I've already taken care of it um but the the LIE had worked its way into almost my body as um my central nervous system was warped around it at this point and that fear mechanism of anxiety and I have to do all of this and then and I was like what do I do and he's like just let me take it from you and he Did and you know later she's crying in the corner and I'm I'm crying and it's this beautiful moment of like the thing

that Jesus used to set me free was just a statement that I had the opportunity to believe and agree with right that was Deliverance for me that's right and um thank you for teaching people how to do that like you're like I I want to be like him when I'm are you 65 yes yeah like I want to be like you man yeah well it's amazing say that no are you believing a lie Jamie yeah no I know it's true because your identity is your gift to the world and so we don't want to be

like anyone else H yeah so I'm speaking so it's correct you're speaking true you said this in your book um received correction received yes I'm not above reproach um you you wrote we can only become Fearless by following God into fearful situations and experiencing his love and protection there's the problem that's exactly the problem yes cuz I don't wake up every morning saying God take me into terrifying situations um I know you have a lot of these uh there's a story about um were you arrested somewhere overseas facing a 10-year prison sentence can you take

like God obviously taught you this not just from the Bible but through your life how did you learn that principle cuz that seems to be a principle I'd rather learn through osmosis that's right yeah I wish that's Me too um yeah that well that's what you know we were talking even before the the show that that um you were asking me what was on my mind and I said well one of the things I've been thinking about is how Jesus is paradigmatic that's the he Jesus is a paradigm a model to us he's not a

means to an end and I you know for me growing up he was a means to an end you use Jesus to get to heaven when you die and you use Jesus for protection and you use Jesus for blessing um but it's different when he's the Paradigm of how you're to live your life he's the Paradigm of what a real human looks like and looks like and lives like and so um it's not it's not like I am definitely not asking the Lord to take me to places where I'm afraid of what I'm saying to

him is it's it's we were doing this driving over here today it's just I just start saying the 23rd psalms right that's just it's just the Lord is my shepherd I don't lack anything that's the opening line yeah so any for anything that I think I lack already you're in the LIE which is how most of us we're using God to fill up some lack that we have already it's wrong you don't lack anything the Lord is my Shepherd I don't lack anything um and so so again how do we know this we we we

the only way we know what a human supposed to look like is by Jesus yeah who's the exact representation of the invisible God so there's God which is unbelievable even to we're all like Jesus Is God yeah but God is Jesus which is more amazing like that's God walking around judging people every day what does the Judgment of God do to people it liberates it loves them too oh we were terrified of God judging us like you must not know who that is then we didn't have the right Paradigm so Jesus is the Paradigm of

judgment and he judges as a physician judges that's what he calls himself I came to seek and to save the lost and and I'm judging you saying yeah you need my healing I'm inviting you into it that's my judgment do you take it or no like that I can't even make he won't even make us take it and so um so what I so the Lord is my shepherd I shall not want I what I love how David is saying this I don't lack anything why don't I lack anything because he because every day he

makes me lie down and Green Pastures he leaves me beside Still Waters what's he doing he's restoring my soul when all the time that's the beginning of everything that he's doing then after that that's the place where we get well and resilient and whole how often all every day all the time we're doing that he's restoring my soul he's transforming my mind he's he's helping me not conform to the patterns of the world then then David goes on then he leads me in the paths this first then he leads me in the paths of what

is right for me in my identity For What He restored here then he why for my for his name's sake it's on him Jesus doesn't look at the Young disciples and go uh I'm sending you out There here's a list of expectation and responsibilities let me know how you do that's how we do it he's saying if you'll follow me I will make you to become fill in the blank follow me and I will make you to become this the enemy is like he's going to send you out and it's all going to be on

you and and no matter who we pray with in the world Muslims atheists it doesn't matter the greatest fear of every human when you get to it is this is what they believe I'm powerless and alone in the world that's what every human that's their biggest nightmare or everything in my life depends on me and I can't do it yeah if we ever admit it I just can't I can't be a Christian dad I don't know what a Christian husband is I have no idea what that I don't even know even in the Bible it

doesn't say what it is I don't know what that is so I have to just measure myself against some arbitrary standard that I'm never going to make and it just produces fear right shame right and so Lead Me in the paths that are right righteous according to my relationship with you you're the one that knows and it's not for me it's for you for your name's sake where do we need to go to do that through the valley of the shadow of death who's leading the Good Shepherd is leading you into the valley of the

shadow of death if I'm going in there by myself I won't go if he's ahead of me inviting me more likely to go yeah so Valley sh and I will fear no evil why because you're with me you're rod and your staff they got and protect through it where are we going to what's the goal our enem a table with our enemies that's The highest goal is that you're sitting down at a table with all your enemies and what happens there I'll anoint your head with oil your cup will be running where's all that beautiful

favor and power at the table with your enemies why because Jesus is the Paradigm of where is he going to the table with his enemies that's where he's going and and surely goodness will Mercy you will follow me all the days of my life back laying in the green pasture table of your enemies there that's when you will understand the real ity of love God love yourself love your neighbor that's the only place you'll ever get the incredible understanding of your look who you are look who I made you to be look who I am

look who your neighbor is they're not your enemy they're your neighbor as long as you believe they're your enemy you're going to be at War and all you're going to do is go for power and control power and control lock them up put them in jail kill them kick them out get rid of them separate separate separate separate but the Paradigm of Christ you can't do it right and so the in in that situation in Indonesia I'm not looking to go to prison I don't want to go on trial what we're what I'm asking the

Lord is will you teach us will you show me how to talk to a Muslim not I don't need some expert I need you how would you talk to a Muslim you're not converting anyone to Christianity like none of that's you don't do any of that stuff that's we've come up with all this how would you talk to this person and so we're trying our thing which which our strategy was um attack and Extract that was our missional strategy attack and extract which means you attack their faith system destroy it and then extract them out

in over into your system and um which just creates it's called The Crusades in other scenarios say we're going to beat you into being on our team um and so we were doing that and I'm then every day Lord teach us the way and he's like okay I'm going to I'll show you the truth about what this what you're doing does I'll show you what it does it creates War what you're doing starts Wars and so um and so I'm doing this with students and and students are trying to Muslim Students and professors are trying

to respond to me but I would keep drawing this big line that they couldn't cross like James says when the Gentiles are coming to the kingdom and the Jewish Jewish believers who are great people are frustrated that it's just so easy for the Gentiles to walk in and James says why put a burden a yoke around their neck that you can't even bear you guys don't even believe all this stuff and you're telling them they got to believe it all before they can come into the kingdom um and so I'm going to show you how

wrong that is so that to help you it's it's my kindness that's going to lead you to do this in a new way and so um so I had these one student especially that was an agitator from the the sort militant Islamic group and he was in my class and they and he had there was a bunch of them they would come to my class and they would interrupt the class and yell at me and ask me questions and so one day he and they were super smart they were they were very smart people And

he he was asking me something about the Quran and I just I got lazy and I just answered kind of flippantly and insulted the Quran which is all he was waiting for every day they were doing just like when the Pharisees are questioning Jesus and I just got lazy and I didn't directly insult it but it was enough for them there there's I've broke a law Indonesia and so immediately they charged me and the penalty was 10 years in prison and I did do it it wasn't it wasn't like I'm being persecuted for Jesus like

no you broke their law yeah I may not like their law it's still their law it bothers me when Christians go into other countries and break the laws of those countries and think it's okay cuz we're Christians but man if they break a law in our country we don't have that same view um so like it's their country it's their law You' like it or not but you know um there's no example of Jesus going in and breaking people's laws right in the sense of just in their face yeah Paul's the same way it's the

in Ephesus they said he is in no way blasphemed our goddess no way and yet people are believing all the time you don't need to do that stuff right just just tell them the truth it's powerful enough yeah so anyway so then they notify me you know that I have to go on go into a hearing I'm not allowed to speak because I'm not a Muslim only Muslims can speak in defense of me which no one's going to do because they'll all be in prison with me and and most of them didn't like me anyway

because I was just insulting them all the time with my evangelism style yeah where going into Indonesia specifically to convert like on a Mission no I was well so I'm always a kingdom person above all but I worked for the Indonesian government I was hired by the Indonesian government in the Ministry of Education to teach in the University what were you teaching I was I taught discourse analysis I taught history I I have lots of certifications that we we teach under got it yeah yeah so no one's going to represent you right and so but

I was one of their one of their first there was three three Americans in there I was we were the first westerners they' ever had in that University so they wanted us there and we were we were really good professors actually um so they weren't thrilled that that I was getting charge but the head of the university is like I'm a Muslim I can't mess with this Bo you're in trouble sorry for you so um so you go into the hearing and I I remember I mean I thought at the time it wasn't I didn't

blame the guys that did that to me they're they're defending what they think is right yeah and um so I didn't blame them for that I didn't think I was being persecuted I was mad that I made a mistake and I wasn't paying attention it's just like a cop getting shot it's just like you got lazy you got lazy you just you decid I'm not going to check I mean one time I there's a lady standing in the middle of the road on midnight shift and I was driving home and I was working PL clothes

and I got out of the car and said get out of the road what are you standing in the road for I didn't identify myself or anything and I went to grab her to get her out of the road and she pulled a gun out of her purse and put it right on my nose like this and was like trying to pull the trigger hard wasn't she didn't it and that that one so then I had to arrest her and My lieutenant said how did she get a gun out of her purse up to your

nose what were you doing Lazy Lazy like lazy Christianity lazy you're not thinking you're not paying attention anyway so when I was sitting in the I I was I was I told Don of course and you know what I was more concerned about was going to prison for 10 years leaving my Jewish wife and kids alone on that island because they couldn't leave yeah they would never be allowed to leave and um I was more concerned what would happen to them than me in prison um so that produced a lot of fear in me could

God protect them without me there all this kind of stuff you know and um and so I was telling our oldest son at the time I was saying you know I was trying to explain to him what happened he was little and he I said you know how we came here yeah he was eight right and we came here you know because Jesus wanted us to be here to work with students and he's like yeah I said well sometimes Jesus changes directions and I'm going to he wants me to work with prisoners and inmates now

so I'm going to go work with prisoners for about probably 10 years or so and he said okay he goes is Mom going and I said no she'll be here with you and he's like okay so I said I'll see you I'll see you in 10 years he's like okay man like I could have scared them with it yeah but anyway so then we go to the trial and I'm sitting in the in the room the hearing room looking at there's the the um three clerics from the you know the mosque the Islamic guys to

make sure it's it's the laws followed and then the dean that charged me head of the university and then empty seat where the Head of the Islamic Society of Indonesia was supposed to preside he wasn't there for whatever reason and I'm sitting there and I'm just looking at this and I'm thinking I mean I'm going to go to prison there's nothing I can do about that part of it and you know this is before the internet internet or anything so I can't rally some Christian group to get behind me yeah yeah it's just me and

can God by himself with no one knowing in the world the situation can he do anything about it I didn't think he could because I'm in you know Islamic land with no Christian support group what's God going to do and this is when you really get down to what do you really believe about God so what the so what's the fear that God is not as strong as he is in back in the US with all your Christian Pals around that or some people fall into like God can't but he doesn't want to right which

is just as bad that's exactly right that's exactly right yeah um and so all of that and and so I'm sitting there and I'm mad at myself and I said to the Lord I I said you know I've been asking you to teach me how to talk to these people with love and I'm not doing it I know and this is the result this is what happens now I'm in their conflict system because that's I preach the gospel as a weapon not as the good news for all people it's like I I want those bad

guys to lose in our team to win and that's that's my motivation it's wrong and anything not done of love Paul says is waste even if you sacrifice yourself to Def flame waste of time yeah and all That was hitting me and um and I was just I I was sorrowful I was I would it wasn't BL I just like man Lord I'm G to I'm going to learn what you want me to learn here so just take care of my family while I learned this lesson MH and I and so I so I wasn't

afraid like like oh my gosh I'm going to prison and all that stuff I knew Donna could I knew she would be resilient and could deal with it be better without me there driving her crazy but um but like so so it's like it's like the way the Lord in a lot of the scenarios we were in even even later in our career because it only got ramped up after that this was like intro the intro session and um and and so it's like the Lord's with me okay and I'm going to go into the

situation so so Lord what do you want me to know just what do you want me to know in this situation and so then they they started and they you know they did the charge and it was accurate and like it's exactly what I said it's a violation of that law I didn't say they didn't ask me and then they said does anyone want to say anything on his behalf which they knew that they knew they had that room locked up they knew it and um and I was just like okay here we go let's

go so whatever's next we're just going to take it and we're going to receive it and I'm to follow the lord into it because it's an invitation it's always an invitation and so then this guy comes walking in the room down the aisle and he walks in and he said in English Because the whole proceedings are in Indonesian he says I want to I have something I want to say he says it in English and I know he's doing that to show that he's fluent in English and he's smart and he's wearing the the uniform

of a university Professor so I know he's he's a government Professor um he must be Muslim because he's allowed to talk and and he's very good in English so he's probably Western educated I don't know um and he and to walk in in the middle of this he has a lot of Wasa they could say power yeah or high rankings yeah he definitely is not afraid of this room so he comes in and he's he's he comes up to stands right in the front and they all immediately recognize him and he says you all know

who I am and they all bow their heads to him like wow and so he tells the story about getting a scholarship from Indonesia to go to Arizona State University and how when he got there on this linguistic scholarship he uh he and his wife he knew that pretty soon that he was knocking him he was not smart enough to get through the whole PhD per too difficult in English all this and he says in front of the court I knew I was going to fail no muslim would say that publicly like that that's way

too humble so now I'm thinking I know he's a Muslim they all know he's a Muslim but he's a different kind of Muslim because he wouldn't that he's talking differently than a normal a Muslim in a high position would never talk like that wouldn't admit the failure and he said and I sat on the bed and cried in our apartment which I'm like oh my gosh then he says he said and do you know what happens if you fail on an Indonesian scholarship you never work again like you're over your career is finished and so

he said then there's a knock at the door open the door there's these two American guys there they say to me we're In the same program you are it's really hard for us we know it's going to be really hard for you we're here to help you pass whatever you need whatever you do we're here to help you pass our wives will help your what and so then I'm thinking oh my my gosh which direction is he going to go with this story and he said those two Americans not nothing was more important them to

me than me and my wife they would come anytime I called them they and I finished higher than both of them in the program because they Lifted Me Up Above themselves he goes this is unbelievable and he says oh and I want you to know that they invited me to a Wednesday night meeting um with them and I thought he's not going to say this is he is he going to say this and he goes and I went to that Wednesday night meeting every Wednesday the whole time I was at Arizona State University and it

was a Bible study that's what he says something court and it was a Bible study so I went to this Bible study with these two Christian guys he said here's my question does anyone think I'm not a good Muslim because I went to a Bible study with these Christian friends who were trying to help me anyone think I'm not a good Muslim and he looks around at all the leaders and they're all like no no what um so I'm a good I am a good Muslim and I went to that for years he went to

that bible study and then he goes so here's my question to you people is I'm in a Christian country and I'm a Muslim I'm considered an enemy by a lot of Christians just because I'm a Muslim so I'm an enemy in their land in their territory and as their enemy they come To me and sacrifice themselves on my behalf um as their enemy for my good over theirs and he go and there the Christians are the lesser religion they're not as great as Islam they're lesser and that's what they do now we have one of

them here in our land and he's less than I he's a Christian we're Muslims and he made a mistake he made a serious mistake he said but when I was there they sacrificed everything for my good now we get the chance to have one of them here as the greater religion and he makes one mistake on one day and we're going to put him in prison for 10 years years I don't think that's right I think it's the greater faith we need to like forget this and let this go he goes that's what I think

and he just walked out oh my gosh and the what and the Islamic clerics were like we dropped the charges wow he's right he's right we need to extend Mercy the mercy of God we extend Mercy you're you're released free to go now was the end and then so i' got they're like and I'm like they're like go you can go and so I get up and I walk out and U I think it's like an angel situation you know but then Hy his name is Hy was smoking a cigarette and I was like that's

too far even my theology Angel smoking cigar I don't know Jesus in a Starbucks okay but um I don't know about angel Smoky maybe so I I asked him um you know I asked him who he was and he told me he said you know that he said Um the he said did you see the empty seat up there and I said I did and he said do you know who sits in that seat and I said yeah the big Islam he goes I'm the new one this is my first day he said that guy

was killed in a car accident yesterday and so I'm this I'm new in this position in Jakarta he was in Jakarta which is like flying from LA to New York to get to where I was he said I read this situation you know someone breached me on it and I flew out here and he said to pay back my two friends wow wow he goes now let me tell you something he said I know why you're here you're here because you think Jesus wants you to be here and to tell him listen about Jesus and

he goes and that's a good thing that's a beautiful thing but you better find another way to say it because every time you open your mouth you insult me and my people he said find another way to say it because I can't protect you here for the if you're going to keep doing this and I knew that's the whole point the Lord wanted me to get yeah there's another way to say this and and so the two things that shake up the human heart are suffering and beauty and so that whole incident was incredible suffering

and great Beauty and it awoke both of our hearts to to Jesus how would you talk to these people and it changed our whole way of doing what we did so are you willing to go through that kind of suffering to come are you willing to for the joy set before him he endured the cross what's at the other side of that cross the name above all names every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God because he gave the gift of His identity to the

world at Great costs but with joy and because of the Beauty Beyond the suffering right that's a paradigm yeah if you're going to follow Jesus as a paradigm that's the road you're going to go on you don't ask for that road it is just is the road yeah that's an amazing story The the Paradigm piece I'm assuming you're Pro you're working on a book on this yeah yeah probably yeah paradigms are interesting because so in in my line of work we just train business owners and everything comes off of their rules belief system is a

rule uh what grows and what hurts is a rule and a paradigm tends to rewrite all your rules at the same time in a moment yes and so when like right now what's really big is like this um as as Quantum Sciences develop and and tanglement develops and all this stuff where people are like you you have to be a you have to be a special class of um of challenged I think to to discover the secrets of the universe and think it was random yeah right yes that's crazy to me like I and I

I get to work with some of the smartest people in the world and sometimes I'm like you're you're so smart and it's hurting you like nobody would walk into your house and be like whoa how did you Manifest this yeah you had a builder you had permits you had architect and the universe and the world and the cosmos is the same way but with Quantum people are really interested in it and when you want to grow something really really really really really fast like like warp Speed quickly it always requires a new paradigm because you

don't have time to one by one change your rules right it's too painful and then your body won't even accept them right but a new paradigm is a new experience where all of them are Rewritten simultaneously because you have no choice and what you're saying is when you meet Jesus every rule is Rewritten that's right which I think is like fascinating to I want you to send me an advanced copy of the book well and separ and suffering is the only shortcut to the to the rewriting of the Paradigm suffering with and I want you

to talk about this cuz I call it brokenheartedness you can go through suffering and it can develop brokenheartedness you can go through suffering and create bitterness that's right so almost have to pick the right Road that's right through it I think you talk about the difference between lament and complaint do you want to talk about that for a little bit right well so suffering you know when you're because you're going to encounter suffering in life I mean that's the way it is and so when you when you encounter the suffering you have the choice of

how you respond to it right right and so you if you resist the suffering and you push back on it then it turns into tragedy honestly and Trauma and Trauma and bitterness and it prolongs it yep it almost I mean it just makes it go on forever rather than going into it and and lamenting as you go through it right and asking Lord all the time what do you want me to know what do you want me to do what do you want me to know what do you want me to do um and then

try and realizing that this suffering is leading Somewhere the only thing that would make it pointless and random is if you keep resisting where it's inviting you or the suffering the level that's inviting you to and so yeah so like when our when we were in Iraq we when we got to that part of our life um and our you know four out of the five on our team were killed in one instance one incident how do you respond to that you know we have a we have a team we have a we have a

part of our team that are brand new rookies on you know out there in that part of the world in this kind of job and then we have a senior team that's supposed to train the rookie team and the whole Senior Team gets killed in one incident so the rookie team is left how do they respond to what happened you you know so you don't want to live in any kind of denial it's like no that really that happened I had to go ID the bodies notify the next of K all of that and then

turn around to our younger team and say but this does not determine how we make decisions right this happened it's real the question is because you have to now live in the same world in the same neighborhood where that happened MH how do you not get out of there as fast as you can and the only way you can do that is by really going to the Lord and saying in you understand death more than we do we're terrified of it we do everything we can to avoid it Christians are no better at understanding death

than non-Christian we're just is terrified and we always view death as lost like somebody lost God dropped the ball we dropped the ball somebody dropped the ball um because we're always praying for like keep them alive and keep us here And all that stuff instead of not my will that thy will be done yeah which is really the only prayer Jesus ever has to pray he's not making decisions every day he's already made the decision not my will your will be done yep yep once you said once you pray that one it's like here we

go right um and he doesn't view situations as a paradigm he doesn't view situations as win lose possibilities there's only the win once you view a situation as a win lose you have to self-protect and self-promote once you do that you've pulled your true identity out of the situation and now it's on you now it is on you yeah right so but you're so what's what could you the only way that humans could possibly lose is is death and Jesus said I took care of that one I took away the power of death from the

one who had the power of death Satan and I relieved you of the burden of the greater burden which is the fear of it yeah those are gone now now do you want to embrace that or not where would we learn to believe that the fear of death is gone oh come with me I'll show you how to understand that let me take you down into the valley of that but I'll be with you and let me show you how not to be afraid of that yeah so so when we that happened that incident happened

in um Iraq came back to my younger team and I said look this is a fact they you know One Survivor the rest are dead the survivors in a coma gone um you have the option to leave now you do there's no law that can make you stay but I'm telling you the the only danger here is that you start making fear-based decisions in your life M because once You do fear is your god instead of just being a beautiful tool to direct you it's now your God and it'll kill you right and then the

enemy will attach to that fear and it'll possess you and so be before you make a decision we're going to I'm going to teach you a process of just what to do with fear because fear is beautiful and valuable un it's not a decision maker and so in the midst of that you know again you're a zillion miles away you're all by yourself in this scenario with these 23 year olds um asking um to stay in a world where it's very likely you're going to get killed um not not maybe it's like we live in

the middle of it statistically it's up there the Abdu the abductions have started the beheadings of foreigners have started all that so how do we live in that but not let it rule how we think and so if we spent 48 hours working through what do you do with fear it's very the Bible is an invitation to never be afraid yeah yep and so we just work through a real process Jesus has the Paradigm and at the end of those two days we said okay now you're free to make a decision but make the decision

from peace to piece not from conflict to try and find some way to peace right because it never work yeah so come to peace in this and then make a decision and they all decided to stay yeah and almost all of them are still in the region today wow amazing amazing people dude you can tell you can Almost tell what because there's many paradigms Jesus is the one at the top he the most high he's going to sit at the top of that but you can almost tell what Paradigm a person is subscribing to by

whether they pivot around the problem or they pivot around the promise and you've got like this situation let's just be honest like people listening to this are not fearing their next beheading um they're they're mostly like why won't God save me I haven't gotten promoted right or like my business is struggling Facebook shut my ad account down and it's like okay hold on like to find problems a little bit you're a paradigm shift for this audience because you're talking about like we could have gotten abducted but it's so interesting to me that when you when

you really get to Jesus um Jesus will give you experiences that biologically can work to reprint your instincts around the promise that's right and but you have to be willing to to go into that yes that's right which is terrifying I mean I acknowledge that like could yeah it's scary well and then you know I when because like the disadvantage of telling the kind of stories I'm telling is that people can separate from it I'm never going to be in that situation so but but that's not correct so I I I'm not the if you

go deep into what are you really afraid of I'm afraid that I'm a failure that's the deep fear I came here to help Muslims come to know Jesus we not only didn't do that it went the opposite we we made them less likely to it's not it's that I'm a failure I'm abandoned by God I'm Unworthy of him those are the Deep ones and those happen every day everywhere are those fears and they're no greater over there than they are right here that you know um you know when you're talking to kids in public school

or private school or whatever and you're saying like why won't you why don't why don't you go to math class the fear the fear is greater than any fear we ever felt in any abduction situation because that class proves that I'm stupid it proves that I'm no good and I would rather get expelled from school than go face that level of fear what happens in that room I die in that room that that is as real as anything we've ever gone through maybe more painful or my dad doesn't love me yeah yeah yeah yeah that

is a death that's the kind of death we're terrified of and what Jesus is saying and even in that death I am with you and there is resurrection from it there's a there's a large body of Works in Psychology that says you can really sum up categorically the two fears of humans that has come through the the thousands of years fear number one is physical death like what you're talking about and fear number two is being alone because we're sort of like you can't procreate if you're by yourself you can't extend the species if you're

by yourself you can't enjoy fulfillment if you're by yourself and so we're afraid of death and we're afraid of being alone and I saw like this kid in math class he doesn't understand it or she doesn't understand it but psychologically through the subconscious she doesn't want to be alone right and If you're stupid you're excommunicated yes and um that's the whole point of of like what you're talking about that's right is but you have we have to learn how to Pivot around that and get into recognizing the promise is superior that's right I think you

could talk about how you you I don't want to give the impression that you're perfect um but for you to call your son and be like hey Jesus has changed and we're going to now minister to prison prisoners I'm like dude what how did you how did you make that leap is it conscious for you or did you just like how can you just help us no it's it's a yeah no every it's of course it's a journey of like just learning and I I saying this to one of my friends yesterday Jesus is always

leveling the disciples up yeah all the time he he won't let them just yeah we got that yeah he's not coasting right let's go there's another level to this there's another level to this and like the Israelites going towards the promised land he's he's always urging them forward they're dealing with all their fear and you know and we don't understand and we can't control God which is a huge fear of ours we can't get God to work the way we want MH we we're terrified of a free God we want a God that we can

manipulate and get if we say the right words he'll do it whoa right which is animism which is animism um what animism animism right so like baby dedications is an example in the church if you're if you're dedicating a kid to the Lord you're saying take my kid unto death yeah that is not what parents are doing they're doing an They're doing my kid yeah they're doing an animistic ceremony to get the tribal God to protect their kid from any bad thing so you're not dedicating them to God you're saying if I do this will

you make their life happy and healthy and that's like is that the Paradigm of Jesus that you're looking at there this is you're doing you're looking for animism and Magic to try and make your life as safe as possible and that's why power and control is what we move towards who can who who can we put in power that can make my life great yeah um when most of the time we think of that even as ourselves that's right if I can be in charge exactly right yeah so what the Lord does is so beautiful

and this what I love about the scripture all of scripture are these beautiful processes he never just starts way over here like we're all going to go die now it's this gous processes and they start very small you know um in this book that I'm writing I was talking about Elijah just starts from Total obscurity he goes from Total obscurity to a guy that can stand up on a mountain and say I want the whole country here Tuesday and they're all there what but it was this be gorgeous process that he had to go through

can birds feed me just you and birds can God just get birds to feed you that's lesson number one how would you know go lay by that Brook that's all you have to do just trust me to go lay and he can say I don't want to all right let me know when you want all the way lesson after lesson up like that and that's what he's doing in our life so you know I felt like in the police department was where I got a lot of that let let me tell you real quick for

an example and so it's just you you do these small things and then you realize oh my gosh that's the way that works and then he bumps it up a notch and then you're like Well it worked there you do it here like that and then sometimes it doesn't and you get suspended and you're like H what was that about because the goal is not to not to keep advancing sometime it's worth getting suspended over sometimes there's a price to pay for it so if you're afraid of getting suspended this lesson's going to stop right

now got to be willing to lose the job M are you willing to lose the job here's a minor example you're suspended for 5 days did that destroy you kill your reputation no it actually didn't okay what did you learn in the suspension okay let's go here we go do it again like that and so one one I was working Mother's Day Day work one time and I was pretty far along and like I had developed a reputation like I do weird stuff because I think God talks to me you've got the fruit to show

it you know your supervisors will stand up for you because yeah he's weird but this did happen that way and I was working day work and I was oh it was it was coming up to where the state department was going to call me and interview me and take me out of the police department that was of course that's where the Lord knows you're going yeah so he's building this case File that's going to attract the attention of the state department anytime in there I believe I could shut that down and like I'm I'm not

risking this anymore Lord he's like okay let me know because I'm right here with you anytime you so like the Israelites get all the way up to the promised land and they're like we're not going in why we're grasshopper we've decided we're Grasshoppers and the Lord's like okay we're going to live like grasshoppers instead of Joshua and Caleb those guys over there you know and so for you know a whole generation but every day year after year the Lord's Right there going how about today he's never gone he's like how's the grasshopper life going do

you like it is it amazing and any day that they would have said we hate this it sucks he would let go here we go let's go W five years 10 years 20 years all the way up until like they're in heaven like he was he's right there every day inviting never leaves you he's always inviting and we're just like I just can't I just can't today I just can't all right I'll ask you tomorrow that's my hope I can think of times where the Lord was with me in dark days where where I was

even into substance abuse and he was right there with me in the you know Haze going do you want to end this because I got this whole thing we could do together but I can't do it with this so you let me know when we want to be done with this and we'll be done with it years and then one day I said I want to be done with this he said let's go that's the beauty of the invitation it never goes away even though we stop we we like you know like that holding our

ears so I'm working so he's going towards something I know from reading the Bible he's never this is going somewhere and it's going upward and it's costly and you know and so one day I'm working day work it's pouring rain it's a it's a Sunday it's Mother's Day actually it's pouring rain and um I'm I'm I'm in my cruiser and it's like you know it's like that everyone just kind of sits and waits for the for the football game to come on the radio and I and I see these two kids walking down the street

in the rain two little kids in pajamas and um a girl and a boy and the girl's like I don't know she was like seven or eight or something like that the kid was like four and she's holding His hand and they're walking down coming down the street pouring her hold teddy bear and I'm looking at him and I'm going whatever this is this is really going to be bad this is a really bad situation so I go get them I bring them over they don't want to come with me I get them to come

with me I get them inside my car in my cruiser and I'm like what are you what are you doing where are you going the the boy doesn't never talks the girl says the older girl she says we're we're walking to my grandmother's house where does your grandmother live Winchester she says 50 miles away I'm like yeah why why are you going there because my mom's boyfriend hurt our other brother and I'm like oh no oh no where's your how old is your other brother he's like 14 like what do you mean hurt him he's

he's lying in the living room he can't move so we jumped off the balcony they they saw had to do it on TV climbed off the balcony and they were going to their grandmother's house and I'm like listen I got to go get your brother can you tell me where to go we don't want we're not no we're not going back there we can't go back there we're not going back there and I said but I got to get your brother I got to go find your brother we can't leave your brother there can you

tell well she didn't know the address yes so I called this another guy in my squad and I'm like hey look at we got this situation going we got to find this kid I'm going to drive around I'm going to get her to tell me so I'll tell you where I so so I'm driving around in this low-income section I'm like point and she goes I think it's right there you know we're driving around finally get to this building she goes that's it that's that's it okay if I go in the stairwell do I go

up or down she's like up up just One and it's straight ahead like that and but the whole time she's telling me I'm I'm just looking at her and we have two little boys at home back in and I my insides are going just getting more and more traumatized by this yeah what I'm afraid I'm going to find in this place when I go in there and and some PE person that's hurting this CU he would have these would have been next on his list you know and so the all the Injustice and the hostility

is building up inside of me and so by the time I go up to the door and the other unit comes and I said just stay with the kids I'm going to go in here go and so I go up and I just bang on the door and pound on the door and someone inside I think he thinks it's the kids he starts this guy starts cussing and swearing and he Yanks open the door because he knows the kids are gone and then I'm like surprise because I'm standing there in uniform and he he's like

in a tank top and boxers and he just runs down the hall and goes into the bedroom and locks the door and so I walk in and the kid is on the floor and he's hurt he's not he's alive he he's hurt really bad and he can't move and so and the mother's passed out on the couch and so I kneel down next to him and I look in his face and I'm like do you are you in pain and he said I can't feel anything so I'm like that's good and bad at the same

time I said okay I'm calling the rescue squad right now call the rescue squad I said okay so they're going to come they're going to come busting through the store in a minute okay everything's going to be okay and I stand up and I just I'm so mad I don't know what to do so I take out my gun and I walk down the Hall and I kick the bedroom door in and the guy's laying on the bed in the fetal position it's typical you beat up all the kids and this is the coward that

does it and so I get up onto the bed like kneel up over top of him and I roll over and I put my gun right on his mouth like this and I said grab my gun put your hand on my gun he's like why I I want I said touch my gun put your hand on it he said why and I said because nobody knows I'm here except my part partner and he's he's not going to know what happened in here but I need you to touch my gun because I'm going to say that

you tried to take my weapon and I shot you to get your hand off my gun touch it and I was I had it in my head you were so mad I so Furious and out of control and um and all of a sudden the Lord says to me this is not worth it what are you doing this is not what we do we don't do this I don't care how mad you are we don't do this because this will not only ruin him it'll ruin you vengeance is mine you take care of that kid

you take care of those kids I'll take care of him forgive him and so I host my weapon you know we arrest him and all that stuff then the rescue squad come the kid had a broken back but they he was okay I mean they treated him and everything so um go back into the car I tell the kids you know it's okay it's okay you know we I got to take you to Social Services all this rigma roll we do and I mean but it was like devastating to me the whole emotion of The

whole thing when I came home after that shift I came I walked into our house and I Donna's like you know and I said I need can you just cry for me about something I need I need someone to cry for these kids because I can't do it I I'm not able to do it because I would so I would told her story and she cried so then I'm thinking God can you show me how what do you do with this because to me you know I didn't kill him but you know but what what

happened what like in this nightmare what can you do um and I just give it to you because obviously you're in charge of the whole thing and you know and I didn't know what else to do with it I just didn't know I just had to let it go and my fto the troll he used to always say to me don't take that person home with you don't take that that was his way of explaining forgiveness he would say if you like that guy his his face is in my mind like so drilled into my

mind he said if you let that guy go home with you he'll sit next to you on the couch while you're watching TV and he'll talk and he'll get in bed between you and Donna and he'll talk and he said he said and he'll talk to you Non-Stop and one day you're going to kill him by putting your gun right there and shooting him don't take him home with you that was his forgiveness lecture W exactly right really good and so so anyway um so I just left it with the lord it's like you just

can't what can you do about it and so I don't 11 years later or so I'm in Indonesia state department does the thing we end up overseas all that stuff we're in Indonesia we're out in lbook in the first place where we got put on trial and we're trying to work out a new visa and I'm in Jakarta trying to work it out it's a big mess because you know we're in trouble got in trouble in the University and all that and I'm I'm in the Mandarin Hotel downtown Jakarta waiting for immigration to process all

of our stuff and I'm just frustrated I'm like God like I know we're supposed to be here you kept me out of prison all of that's beautiful but like like can you run this Visa process this is a nightmare like would you just like show me that you're with me and I'm looking across the lobby and there's two women sitting across the lobby from me an older woman and a younger woman and they there just keep staring at me because I'm like talking nonstop out loud to myself and finally the older woman gets up and

comes over to me and she says could can I ask you a question I'm like yeah I know I look ridiculous and she said no she said were you a police officer did you used to be a police officer I said I did she goes were you did you you know DC area yeah do you remember a A Mother's Day where you picked up a little girl and I'm like yeah she goes do you want to meet her and it was the young woman that was with her in the man hotel and I always love

so she came over to me the girl 11 or 12 years later and she was on a missions trip to Indonesia and she came over and she cried and she said I've always wanted to thank you for that day and what happened and you know my brother older brother's fine and my you know we My grandmother raised us and just want to thank you that for that day and the Lord's like I pretty much have this whole thing worked out if you just stop complaining wow wow lament when you want to lament and every now

and then he gives you a glimpse of Like the beauty of the whole thing wow so Jesus knows that for the joy set before me endures the cross I only say what I hear the father saying I only I only do what I see the father doing that's the Paradigm for the human just say what the Lord says and do what you see him doing and trust him that he invited you into this and he will Faithful is he who calls you who also will do it it's not up to there's nothing you can't do

this stuff so and you just learn so you know 11 years later he shows me that at a when we're at a actually a much more difficult level of how where we need to trust and because because at that in those days we didn't know we were going to end up in Iraq like yeah you level you keep leveling up keep leveling up mm it's almost like um it's God's training Protocols are progressive hey you learn base level and that's right level one and right and it almost sounds like sometimes the lesson that you are

needing to learn is he didn't even do anything wrong to get suspended you have to learn to not be afraid of that that's right that is the lesson that's right which I think the enemy tries to program us with shame that's right EX at these levels MH yes so failing instead of being learning which it is in this world that we're in failing failing becomes an identity and once you take the failure identity on you're you're done we we just say you're like you're out of the game because God can't invite a failure into things

yeah He only invites the true you into things and so um that's why you you have to stay with what what do you say about me because this is what I feel like what do you say about me and you know like David Young King David when he's young and he's out there you know we like to joke about he's out there watching sheep practicing with a slingshot and probably writing really bad poetry about what he's doing just and wasting his time as a young kid and like what's he's useless his dad doesn't even know

who he is like all that all that kid wants to do is mess around with that slingshot and and write dumb poems and watching sheep and that's like all he ever does they're they're his greatest skills as the warrior poet um King that he's going to be and so that's why when you're with kids that that identity is in motion and it's trying to work and express itself and we keep yanking it and forcing it this way or that way which hurts some but and they don't know um but that identity is forming so the

best thing you know raise a child up in the way they're already been and in the end they'll never depart from it we're trying to bend them to get him to be something yeah so for me put him in a theater where he can see a police officer and watch what happens to him yeah how much time do we have can we keep going yeah are you good yeah you need more you haven't even had your coffee that's okay I haven't let you take a breath so I'm sorry no it's okay um I was speaking

at a um I was speaking at a conference a couple of years ago And um I feel like sometimes God teach es me through the words that come out of my mouth when I'm like in an anointed spot and I'm like that's what God's been trying to tell me and I just randomly said it um and I I've been doing better about writing those things down yeah um and so I was at I was at this conference and I was speaking and something about in the middle of it I couldn't get this phrase out of

my head um it had nothing to do with what we were talking about I think we were talking about customer acquisition or something dumb and uh how to scale businesses and boring stuff yeah and um in the middle I just looked at somebody and I said you're a fraction of what you were born to become yeah and she kind of it was a moment and I it wasn't until a couple of years later and you wrote a line in your book and uh and it connected with that moment and and it was like holy spirit

was like that was for you and for her but you didn't catch that it was for you yeah I was like oh yeah we missed that got it you said I want you writing I want The God Who Says to David hey let me teach you how to fight in a new way because one day about 10 years from now you're going to need it you don't know it yet and you're not going to trust me yet but you will trust me now in the small unimportant things learn to do what I say throw a

rock at that lion do it trust me because one day it is going to make you a king MH and I was like man if we would if we would catch the weight of the hidden obscure moments where no one's Watching us we're not on a YouTube set it's it's at a grocery store and God tells us to say something to the cashier and we tell them that's the trajectory altering Paradigm changing that's right moments where we get to trust God and it didn't backfire and then we can trust him with the big things on

the world stage when you're in Iraq when you're doing these things that's right um I think that that's one of my favorite things that I've learned from you is just asking God cuz if we could go to the end and we could see what we're destined to be wouldn't it be that hard yeah like yeah of course it' be like well this makes sense I lost my business because at one point 20 years from now I'm going to need the lessons from this right but the beauty is God knows what you're destined to be and

so you've developed the habit of saying what do you want me to know not um I don't I don't hear you talking a lot about God will you just do your job God will you just fix this I'm sure you do pray this things but it seems to be the number one thing you're praying is what do you want me to know about this what do you want me to know about me what do you want me you're and he's giving you information outside of the teleological context of time right and when you believe it

you move forward yeah that's right yeah that's right that's why the con Spirit Holy Spirit wants him to take that phone call right now you want me to call I'll call him we'll call them on air what do you want me to know is what you're praying yeah God what do you want me to know and what do you want me to do yeah right and so um because the the Confession is like we think we know what's happening in a situation you don't you don't know you you know a very limited part of what's

actually occurring in the situation you find yourself in and so you're just it's a humility statement of I actually here's what I think I know but I know I don't know everything that's happening so what do you want me to know that I don't know as opposed to asking him why something's happening which is a that question is not going to get answer it's lesson in futility right but he will always tell you what he wants you to know and what he wants you to know is what is what causes you to grow causes you

to expand causes you to shift paradigms the guy that the one guy that got me uh encouraged me to make the wrong statement about the Quran that guy um so when I got exonerated from that thing he really came after me later and then he he he was clever and in one class he stood up and he said I think I finally understand what you're doing what you're saying and I said good and he said you're you're you're trying to communicate the love of God to us that's what you're trying to do and I said

yeah and he said so is it so is it am I right in saying this God's love is demonstrated through the death of Jesus isn't that really the message and I'm like wow yeah and he said and you and he stood up in the class and he was walking towards me and he said he said and so once we're convinced of the love of God we can Embrace that love and receive that love through Jesus yeah he goes I just want to tell the whole class what I think of that love and I said great

and he spit on me and he said I think it's a ridiculous lie and he spit on me well in that culture if you spit on a Prof they would Kill you you wouldn't even get out of the room they would kill you um because they do they did public punishment all the time with criminal and so my couple of the students jumped up because they were going to defend me and I said no what would Jesus as a paradigm do in that situation I mean everything inside of me would have you know wanted to

like finish that guy off and here's the perfect this is the this is the raccoons the and the and the dogs it was an invitation from the enemy to do something that's what because the enemy invites as well as God and and wow I wanted to and I and my students would have backed away and protected to let that happen they would have done it for meh and the Lord said I'm inviting you not to do this because it's a trap so easy to fall in defend yourself protect yourself and so I didn't and and

and my students were ashamed of me for not doing anything about it wow it was one of the hardest things I've ever done I'd rather have someone threatening to kill me than to have that happen and have to walk away with the spit on your face and um and so I I I dismissed the class and I walked out and my students were like you're going to let this go nobody would let this nobody in your position would let this go that no one's going to have any respect for you after this and I came

home and I told Don I was like wow I just I I hate that I had to walk out of there like that I hated it and I was mad at God and all of that And um but then it was like the only opportunity to have to be incarnate like Christ was incarnate I wanted to be incarnate like you know like Gladiators like that you know bra all these Macho people I didn't want to like get spit in your face and you just walk out like a coward um that was really hard for me

especially after all my training and everything and I knew you know I could do in my brain what I would do to that guy it was just I practiced it over and over again after the event you know I had to let it go and then but the Lord's like this do you want to win do you want to beat people or win people like do you want to do you want to is that do you want to beat them or do you want to win these Taliban guys asked us one time do you want

to do you want to win us or beat us because you're never going to beat us but you could win us it's up to you and we just want to beat people that's our model let's just beat them let's beat the bad guys let's beat the enemy let's overpower them and so I really wrestled I had a hard time with that because a very small island very tight you know we were the foreigners oh my gosh immediately and um and I felt like this didn't Advance the kingdom because now we're Wims and and then you

know couple of months later this guy comes to our house at night knocks on the door at night open the door and it's him and I let him in and I just I my like whole body's just like oh when I see him because another one of our guys got stabbed and in front of his kids at night in his house and they had a met back him out this was his guys doing this stuff so he comes in he's the leag Guy he says he goes um I wanted to tell you something I'm like

oh here we go again or I thought maybe God sent him by himself at night so I can just what I wanted to do nobody could see yes God and so he says uh I wanted to tell you that I got a scholarship to go to Singapore for some honor he's a smart very smart guy and he said and I said congratulations and he said but I can't I I don't have any money to get to Singapore and he said I came to ask if you would give me the money to go to Singapore to

take this scholarship otherwise I won't be able to get it and I said what about the Brotherhood you know and he goes yeah they wouldn't we don't do that kind of thing for each other he said but I I thought you would and I said uh and then I just started a nurse I'm cussing around and she hi the next day like she you know like she has some kind of mental memory problem like she's never met me before like she remembered it no more yeah and I I thought of her and I said yeah

I'll give you the money yeah and you don't have to pay me back I said but I want you to know something the re only reason I can even do this is BEC because the one whose face I spit in forgave me um and so I'm giving it to you because he forgave me I forgive you and I gave him the money and that turned the Whole thing that was the win for the whole place was that and the Lord's like can you I'm inviting you to let this guy shame you to pieces in front

of the whole group so we can win the whole thing will you do that will you do that with me because I've already done it wow read my book I've already done it I mean do you want to be like me or do you want me to be a tool to make Muslims convert to Christianity which do you want a paradigm or a fixer and I'm inviting you to be like me and so but that's what turned the hearts because nobody would forgive in a situation like that yeah and they had to have a model

so then we learned a very dangerous prayer which is Lord would you put us in a position where we can forgive the people that we work with it's a very dangerous prayer but that's what he did yeah let me demonstrate forgiveness to these people that's incredible the quote from the book about the raccoons is you said I read an article about how raccoons fight dogs much larger and more powerful the the raccoon will lure the overly aggressive dog or Christian into a body of water and then drown the dog once the dog jumps into the

water all of its power is gone the raccoon now owns the fight this is the David and Goliath story Satan says to us those people don't respect you go get them God isn't going to do it so you have to there's the LIE this is the same mistake that Moses made it's a mistake we make all the time when we're um we don't have to step into that water but it feels so Good to do it feels yeah everything in our flesh we like we're going to step into it and then we lose and it's

not God's fault that's right and we can't be mad at God that we stepped into the pond right which I think then kicks off another yearlong multi-year long system of being mad at God because we disobeyed and as if God made us disobey right and we have to go through like sometimes is a hard part is we can then believe God forgives us and we have to figure out how to forgive ourselves because when you realize it wasn't God's fault what do you do yep yeah I mean it's those those are the times where I

mean you're you're you're you're praying in the small that you don't jump at those that bait being waved in front of you it can be it can be come get come get the fight come come get the money come get the position you know these kinds of things it could be any he loves dangling shiny things in front of us to make us jump at them and we go right off a cliff to get them um and so that's that's that's learning you know love joy peace patience goodness kindness gent self-control like slow down um

it's like when you know when the state department interviewed me and he you know they were like how did you do this and the guy was trying to verify in his own mind this was even real even though he's reading the cases CU he was a skeptic to that and he had never seen it before and so we're working through the cases and I'm telling him how I talk to people and pray with people like that and then he says you know here's a real scenario that we're working what would you do in this scenario

so he Paints the real picture that they were trying to solve and Couldn't figure out how to do it and so I said so I so I just took a minute and I just said ask the Lord sitting there with the guy what do you want me to know and what would you want me to do in this scenario and then and then basically it was they were operating in a wrong Paradigm how they were operating not just in this case in every case they work and I said you have a wrong Paradigm you need

to shift the Paradigm and the way I know how to shift a paradigm is because Jesus shifts every Paradigm just his present and so he so then he he he writes on a piece of paper a napkin or something a Sal number and slides it across to me and says will that get you he goes you're right exactly right on the perod will this get you and I looked at the number and it took me a while like to think of how what that number was it's bigger than most numbers I deal with and he

said will that get you oh and we'll take care of your kids education whatever they want whatever they need we'll this get you and my question I think maybe God's question to me was is that what's going to get you is the Empire are you are you going to take the invitation from the Empire or you going to take the invitation from me which is more appealing to you and that's the same thing it's like jump in the pond go jump jump jump but then when you get in there you lost everything that got you

to the place yeah is now you're just one of them now you're moving exactly like they operate and and you're not going to be any different from them yeah if this is what you do and and um so I kind of nobly said I don't that's I don't need that I want this because this is the next level Of what I do that's what I said to him it definitely affected me I go home and tell Donna and she said basically she said is God inviting you into this are you going because of him or

because of who's asking you to come and that was the big prayer request and and the more we prayed about it the Lord was like and this is what I met when I met again with him and told him I said I'm going to do what you want me to do what you're inviting me into but I'm not I'm not if I take the money that you're offering I'm going right into the Paradigm I just told you to break which be disingenuous so I'm going to do it but I don't want anything from you and

he said you're going to take the job but you're not going to let us pay you for it I said that's right like that's a dumbest all right so what God was saying was I'm invite I'm using them as the metaphor to invite you because that's how I invited you in the movie theater same way it's exactly the same scenario you see These Guys these high level secret agent dudes and you're like I want to be that and he said you could be that but you're way more than that and I want you to know

the rest of your life no matter what happens you're so good at what you do that they came to get you but you don't need them but I want you to know that so the enemy will never use that against you that you couldn't do it what an identity such a beautiful the Lord didn't have to do that yeah and he did yeah but um and so Yeah so even today when we work together with those people it's at this very beautiful level where I'm not them but we're really good at what they want to

be good at it's just just and it just kept kept us from being Shackled In the wrong unequally yolked whatever we work for the kingdom and not the Empire yeah that's a great analogy that I've never heard before we work for the kingdom and not the Empire this is my next book that's what this all that King I've never heard that before so I was wondering if that's like that's my book new the kingdom and not the Empire yeah but people just need to write that down and think about that for a while cuz that

is that's right meaty so like the whole so when you're when you when you're looking at the scriptures again you're looking at really the the Torah really is Moses versus Pharaoh that's really the story and Moses is inside the Empire and they train him but when he sees an injustice he handles the Injustice the way the Empire would handle kill the bad guy mhm and God's like no no no no wow no so yet he pulls him out of the Empire and Moses never again kills a person after that wow the whole Liberation movement he

doesn't kill anybody God kills a bunch of people yeah but that's the he's the judge he's the one not us we're not in charge of that and so so then you then you come into the gospels and it's Jesus versus Caesar the same struggle and um and the whole formation of Israel was to set up a nation that was an Empire that was the model that they were going to bring to the world how do you be a nation that influences the whole world without Empire tactics wow so no debt no standing Military none of

those were allowed and God was saying this can redeem a world with no they were not allowed to have a professional standing army that was one of the laws how but our world says that's impossible that's because you have the wrong you don't have Jesus as your paradigm M you have Jesus as a weapon inside your Empire building that's all you have and so so I think I forget who said it but said that Constantine just took the Roman Empire and hung a cross around it and said it was no different than the Empire yeah

and so Caesar Augustus comes on the scene he divides people into groups he creates immediate separation he taxes them and then he conscripts them into the military Jesus comes on the scene draws everybody together cancels their debt and ends War he's the opposite of an Empire so what we have to keep I mean especially in this season where we're electing governments and all what are we building a kingdom or an Empire yeah well even even what are we building in churches that's right EGS I mean cuz and we need to have you back to talk

about church uh we don't have time today but it is amazing that we are using Christianity as a very sophisticated form of psychological War oh yeah not um not as a healing medicine that's right it's it's a s up how do we how do we get people to behave the way that is beneficial for us if they behave This way that's right you know um I had a place that I wanted us to land but I feel like um God wants us to land it different okay so um funny how he does lands to plane

in different places all does what he wants Airport's over here can I hit on something first that I just the question question is not going to away 100% yeah something you said earlier um maybe you answered this indirectly but I was looking for more of a direct answer on it was you had referred to yourself in the Muslim scenario of you were using Jesus in The Gospel like a weapon to teach it um and I don't want to be somebody who blocks the gospel by using the gospel like a weapon I've seen a lot of

Christians where it's like you see a Muslim or an atheist they come to a Christian the first thing they want to do is debate the facts mhm right and it's weapon just fire everywhere and nothing gets done and so I'm really I was I've been really curious I haven't been able to get out of my head so I have to ask it like what how did your thinking change from the gospel as a weapon to what did that look like to share it in the future how do you think about it yeah I mean through

all these different experiences for sure um so so one if you think about how you're trained the training is a big deal how you're discipled or trained so um so I just gave this example thing I just did so when I was in the police department and I'll con make this concise when I was in the police department we shot six shot Smith and Wesson revolvers and when you got on the range with a lot of people in the shooting range you're listening to a range instructor tell you Every step what to do load your

weapon and then when you shot then you ejected the shells and held them in your hand and you didn't reload until the range instructor said drop your shells in in an empty can cuz they didn't want to pick up all the shells so you waited it dropped it in there now reload and shoot then so that's how we were trained day after day then cops would be in a shootout on the street and would die because they never reloaded they were holding the empty shells in their hand because they were trained this is what you

do and so so what happens when you get in a situation where there's pressure you go back to what your training is good or bad so when you think about how for us how do how we train a Christian to talk to a non-Christian we train them and even though it's killing them in the process they just do what they trained because a crisis doesn't make a person it reveals a person so our training was apologetics and pmics why I'm right and why you're wrong and we have kids camps on apologetics and pics and I

mean it's it's interesting so by the time and so so basically what you're doing is attacking their belief structure dismantling it and then um then getting them to come over into your system and believe what you do and we called it convert so F so the problem with it was was first of all when you go to attack another person's belief structure you're it's like using pain compliance on as Soon as you push the pain causes them to react against you even if they don't agree with what they believe they'll push back because you're attacking

their system right and so we were doing that and and PE they would come so close to the king om and then they would be repulsed by and we could not figure it out like they and so then reading the Bible one day go to court H says you better find another way to say it reading the scripture and Jesus uses the word conversion here's what he says to the to the Pharisees you're converting these Gentiles to Judaism and making them twice the Sons of Satan than you are he uses the word convert when he

says that wow because conversion means they're just moving from one system to another system Jesus isn't converting people he's transforming people and we weren't you can't transform people by dismantling their structure and bring them in into yours a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still and it do it apologetics and pmics doesn't take any love zero love so we had a problem so then we go into the gospels McCullum the guy that trained me he would say that's like a guy lives next door to you and his kids are out in

the yard he's he's a from a different country his kids are in the yard you go and he goes inside you jump over the fence grab his kid bring him over on your side of the fence dress them in your clothes and make and name him after your family and the father comes out like where's my kid he's now over in your yard as part of your family embarrassed that he was raised in this family because he's converted out and then we hold that kid up and go ah we got one of your people look

at him look at him he used to be you now he's us like that and it just creates conflict even the dressing up of that oh my Goodness so then Jesus Jesus Takes the Gentiles over in takes the uh disciples over into the Gentile region where they would never have gone anyway finds a demoniac all everything the G the Jews would never have had anything to do with the guy comes to Faith he wants to get in the boat with Jesus and go to the other side that's ex we would have taken him immediately to

our side but Jesus looks at him and goes no we don't want you on ours he's begging Jesus let me go be on your team Jesus like we don't want you on our team because you're on this team and what's changed in you hasn't changed your people it's only changed your it's only transformed you to win them so this we're going back to the Jewish site because we're Jewish the Gentiles just asked me to leave but I'm leaving you because they're your people and you go tell them the great things God's done in your life

and the mercy is shown you that's the whole evangelism program go show them what what's happened in your life when Jesus comes back in the region 4,000 waiting Samaritan woman same way where do we worship in your in your church no where this is where you worship go get your people because I can't go up into your town they won't receive me they will receive receive you Paul says in in Corinthians Let each person remain in the place where they were when God called them we keep yanking them out so we get one and lose

all the rest this is the enemy's game he loves that we do this and then we get a Muslim who comes to Faith In Jesus and we get him to write all the books against Islam that he can just creates a gap wider and Wider Jesus is like don't stop creating separation drum together so we just learned that and then so finally what we started doing with Muslims is stopped calling them Muslims and we stopped calling them unbelievers we just called them people and we would say to them here's the good news tell me what

you're most afraid of in your life and we and they'll tell us like we're going to show you how to get rid of that fear by meeting the one and when you meet this one we're going to decrease and he's going to increase and and that one will take you and then they started to come into the kingdom when we just got out of the way and taught them how to hear the voice of God and it was so much fun now I have to ask you have any crazy examples of that that happened I

feel like you youd probably all are you coming back for part two can we go ahead and lock you down for part two sure yeah cuz they do have you're going to do that they do have lunch headed and I've got a meeting in 15 minutes okay land on the plane then if you'd like I just figured everyone wants to hear the story at this point I feel like oh yeah there's great they do they're going to want more they're going to want more if you got to land you got to land bro well the

reason I wanted I just want to land cuz I don't know how much time I'm not prepared for this so I don't know how much time you're going to take um I was going to end with the story which fits perfectly with him but I feel like God said the hardest the hardest thing for Christians in the west to believe is not what I say about me it's what I say about them wow right exactly man and so I was like great thank you for that irrelevant piece of information cuz I Know what you say

about me and he said ask Jamie to invite people in to how to discover what I say about them yeah um I don't know exactly how you do that I know you probably have tools and models and systems and protocols and spreadsheets and all this stuff and certifications um but for people watching can you take us through an invitation for how do they even find out and hear what God says about yeah mhm so it's called Truth tell mind change form change that's the process truth tell change form change or in religious language confession repentance

transformation okay so confession means just you tell the truth and and we're we don't know how to tell the truth we're so don't ever tell the truth and uh and so learning because to know and experience the truth is what sets humans free so learning to truth tell just practicing truth telling with God at whatever level you can start the truth telling allows for mind change of the person which is repentance so I was taught confession is sorry and repentance is I'm really sorry those are those are both waste of time confession is tell the

truth and repentance is God telling you the truth wow confession is you telling God what you think is true and then giving it to him and then him telling you what is true and you agree with it and you agree with it and it changes is the form of how you live your life which is why repentance means you change your mind to match his mind and then it changes so metanoia mind change metamorph form change we're just trying to change get people to change their behavior based on stuff we tell them so confession simply

for for The Listener The viewer is just we we just did this yesterday with a room full of people we do it doesn't matter who's in the room doesn't matter what they believe about anything because humans are all the same we just have all these labels and ridiculous stuff at the at the bit at the core as we've said a couple times is the person is afraid their main negative emotion is fear all of us have it fear is the unifying factor in any group of people if you can get people to say what they're

afraid of that Rim will come together in in the best way possible because we all know fear and we all live with it all the time so confession Lord this is what I'm most afraid of and you can say what you're afraid of about yourself this is what I'm most afraid I I feel like I believe that I'm unworthy I feel like a total failure I believe that you're never with me uh just practice telling the truth come unto me all you are heavy burden cast your cares on me approach the throne of grace in

time of need that's the constant invitation of the Lord come tell me what you're afraid of what are you mad about what are you AF come say just come say it to me and then when you get comfortable you even say it to each other if you want to be well confess your separateness one to another that you may be healed but so just coming to the Lord right now Lord I'm just afraid right now because and what scares me is that you're not with me and the reason you're not with me is because I

I don't pray like I should and I don't witness like I should and and I've disappointed you and I've did these things wrong and I and I believe that you're separate from me and I'm separate from you and you're just laying that out and and with with the beautiful imagination he has kept in perfect peace whose mind and Imagination whose mind and Imagination is the Hebrew is fixed on me because he trusts in me in your imagination just picture Jesus because we can see we can imagine Jesus picture he's right there give it to him

we we we say people tell people write down everything that about yourself that you hate write down everything ever said about you that hurt you like you're stupid you're whatever and then hand it to Jesus like just hand it what like give it to him and watch what he does with it and we'll get people to say what do you think he does with it or what do you see him doing with her and it's crazy what people say you should see Muslims doing this it's just remarkable and then okay what okay he burned it

he whatever he ate it he whatever he did with okay now now you've swept the house clean the house is swept clean for five minutes it's clean for five minutes okay in that five minutes ask him what he calls you ask him what he says about you go go ask him what do you say and people are embarrassed by the words that come to their mind Yep they're a they're afraid to say what he just said about cuz it's unbearable it's like we can't tell me I'm a dirt bag I can handle it don't tell

me you love me unconditionally don't tell me I'm a I'm a princess in your ey it's too much and they cry and we did this yesterday with 50 people and I walked with the microphone around the room what did you hear and the things they say and and Christians think they're not going to hear anything why would they God it's unspeaking they hear it and it's hard to accept because it's so good it's so beautiful yeah and and so then you receive cuz the only way into the kingdom is by receiving then you receive what

he says about you he says that I'm An antire of knots okay okay what does an untier of knots do tomorrow and you start to learn how to live out that identity these are examples right here of this you know like good examples but that's so that's truth tell leads and then ask God okay here's what I believe here I believe I'm going to prison because I'm a screw up and a failure and I I wasn't paying attention and I didn't pray and you're fr frustrated with me and I that's what's it's scar it's making

me afraid I give that to you what do you say it's okay it's all right it's okay it's going to be fine that's how he talks all the time it's going to be fine it'll be okay stay with me hang with me I'm not I'm never going to leave you stay with me I'll never leave you nor forsake you okay what do you want me to do I want you to sit there and let me move in this room in a way that you'll you could never imagine but just let me move don't do anything

like that rest be quiet sh watch and then next time don't say that to them like that again so just I like to ask men especially look Jesus is right here he's right here look him in his eyes look at him right now and ask him what kind of father does he think you are and they won't do it you know why because they think he's going to say they're terrible because that's what they already believe or not good enough or and so they very one that knows the truth about him they will never ask

him the truth about themselves but they'll listen to the LIE all day long and go yep yep yep because It doesn't take any faith to believe the lie but to believe what Jesus says about you takes Faith because it's just what you hope for it's it's evident it's the it's the substance of what you just hoped he would say about you it's the it's the it's the it's the proof of what is not yet seen but it is true so when they ask him this is what this is how Jesus talks to him even to

even to dads if you looked at him they're the worst he says to him you're a good you're a good dad you're a good dad now let me show you how to act like it who you really are because who you're acting like isn't and it sets them free I see why Holy Spirit likes you so much it all make sense um the first Su that I asked God what he said about me I was like there's no way that that's God exactly yeah cuz God has seen every time I messed up and he would

not call me that right and he wouldn't say that about me that's right my wife and I after reading your book we were um we were having a conversation and I said I'm going to ask Holy Spirit what he says about you right now and I did and holy spirit told me instantly perfect clarity and I was like oh holy spirit says you're perfect and she was like you know I don't it's not possible m I was like what I'll ask him again maybe I made a mistake nope perfect tell her she's perfect M I

was like that is the U that's the story of the Gospel we to exchange our imperfect track record for his exactly his track record and it takes a lot of guts to ask him about That it does and I hope people do it and then it takes guts to believe him yes and to walk like it that's right cuz after you know you know and I think just to to equalize this down you it's okay if you ask him and you get this Clarity and you're overwhelmed and the next morning you have to wake up

and do it again the next morning about in the next hour 10 minutes after that it's okay to ask cuz we'll lose we'll lose it yeah and then we just ask him again and he'll tell us again that's right and it's a it's a choice to conform into that exactly belief system that's right so Jamie you're amazing man thank you yeah thanks for having me and then like next time we need to get the the brains behind this Donna and exactly sh I know how it is uh Jake anything anything final parting words of wisdom

no this one man doesn't need it there's there's a lot of good stuff in this this is one of my favorites it's so good thank you for coming on Jamie thanks for thanks for the the I'd love to come tell you the a whole thing just on how to share your faith is so beautiful and we're so afraid of it and it's such a fight but it's really quite beautiful well let's schedule it to we'll get it scheduled for we can't shoot it today but wonderful yeah that'd be amazing all right thank you guys we

love you and buy his book just do it I cuz I said to do it and uh then leave him a review and we don't ever ask people for anything we're like we don't ever be like like this video subscribe up but I do tell you to buy the books of the people that come on the show um leave us comments if you have questions we'll send them to him and we love you Guys see you