Uma Noite de Escatologia - Debate - LEGENDADO.

[Music] [Applause] I'm John Piper and it's uh September 27 2009 we're at Bethlehem Baptist Church and I am surrounded by friends here but before we introduce them and talk to them and with them I want to pray so let's pray father I love these guys Jim and Doug and Sam I feel their friendship and camaraderie very deeply On some very very glorious and deep matters there are some differences of perspective on the way we see the end of the world taking shape but oh God grant I pray that we would see you above all love

you above all move together toward the world and its tremendous need for the gospel and I ask Lord that around this table you would give a kind of relaxed Liberty a joy in Christ a joy over the word we all have Bibles in front of us That's significant we're not spinning out ideas we hope from our own heads we want to be faithful to your word we share in common a deep allegiance to the authority and inspiration and infallibility of the Bible it is your inherent objective absolute word to mankind concerning all that IT addresses

and IT addresses Everything so God I pray that you would help us this is a free-for all here we want to be able to interrupt each other back up go forward butt in and we pray that truth would hold sway I pray that every view represented around the table here would be Faithfully represented and if we talk about views that aren't here we would be kind to them if they are within the biblical scope of Orthodoxy and I pray That good arguments would be heard the best Arguments for each view so come and guide us

we pray in Jesus name amen amen to my left is uh Jim Hamilton associate professor of biblical theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary pastor of Kenwood Baptist Church is that right that's correct so you're both professor and Pastor yes sir I'm a Bible vocational Pastor I know you do that um Dallas Seminary THM PhD from Southern and uh is teaching there now I won't go into the books that these men have written but they are all significant straight across from me Doug Wilson pastor of Christ Church in Moscow Idaho uh founding board member of logos

school trustee senior fellow of theology at new St Andrews College editor of credenda agenda Ma and philosophy from University of Idaho Etc and to my right Sam storms a pastor Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City Oklahoma president of enjoying God Ministries uh THM from Dallas PhD University of Texas was a professor of theology at Wheaten but has been in the Pastoral Ministry what 30 years total about same as me only I'm older than you are in fact I'm older than all of you but not put together there's a certain certain respect that goes with age here

okay Maybe okay we've called this an evening of eschatology that's um a bit broad because it um it Bears the marks of the situation we're in it it really should be called an evening of millennial discussion even though I'm sure it will go wider than that which accounts for some of who we are here um this kind of a historical accident that we're here because of the conference that was just held and some other things but Uh when I say Millennial I mean the issue of and there going to be people watching this probably who

don't even know these terms so we're going to unpack them premillennialism a millennialism postmillennialism those are the three historic views of the so-called Millennium and they're all represented at this table uh unless you want to qualify that title and pick another one so that's one of The reasons that we're we're here um before we jump at definitions of of that I think it would be good to articulate something and you might even want to try relating it to eschatology well somebody give me a definition of ES ology we probably should start there just jump in

when we say an evening of eschatology um a thumbnail definition study of last things study of last Things anyone want to yes and U to be distinguished from esqu sometimes eschatology refers to the doctrine of heaven and hell outside human history you know past the final judgment we're talking about the last things of human history um leading up to the the final judgment and then more difficult a more difficult angle is that I think all of us would agree that in a fundamental way the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the middle of history is an

eruption of the last things y in the middle of History which has sort of thrown a spanner into everything yeah I want to come back to that you want to add to that anything Sam I would just say I agree with everything they've said that um since the New Testament teaches that the last days began with the exaltation of Christ the right hand of the father and we have been L the last days since that time until his return That it does refer to more than just what typically people think of namely the last few

years of activity upon the Earth uh that it does really Encompass the whole of Redemptive history but especially from uh the time of Christ's exaltation until the time of his second coming yeah let's say more about that later that that idea of we're in the last days and how that relates to the so-called very end so there's the definition that we're all okay with Eschatology study of talking about thinking about last things including where we are right now as the last days since the resurrection of Jesus everybody okay with that I mean such Jesus the

gospel um we are united here with a passion for the gospel let's make an attempt you didn't know we were going to go here let's make an attempt for just a short time to celebrate uh what makes us So excited to link arms in ministry here somebody somebody make a stab at uh a a uniting statement of of the Gospel the gospel is the proclamation of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of his people and his exaltation to the right hand of God the father that's the that's the good news

of God's salvation uh in Christ God is remaking Humanity uh restoring the image of God uh and Christ is that image of God that we are being Restored into and that's the good news yeah and the bad news State the bad news that that answers though God created us in His image and put us in a perfect world we rebelled against him in our first father Adam we incurred his sin and for that we deserve his just right and righteous wrath that's the bad news so everybody deserves wrath because of being sinful and being actively

Sinners and uh God is angry at us for that and will Punish us forever if something doesn't solve the problem and you said Christ died for us unpack just a little bit about that Transaction what what what happened when that happened died as a substitutionary sacrifice in our stad in our place in end during the wrath of God that we uh deserved absorbed it in himself exhausted it satisfied the Holiness and the Wrath of the father um at the same time uh his righteousness as our guilt was imputed to him and the Wrath of God

fell on him for that reason his righteousness is imputed to us that we receive by faith so we stand declared righteous in the sight of the father that's the good news of what he accomplished that we receive through faith alone so it's possible for a a damnable corrupt sinful human being to stand before an all holy God absolutely safe and happy in God because of what Christ did Through faith alone amen everybody's okay with that absolutely Christ Christ did not die so that we might live Christ died so that we might die he lives so

that we might live so that we're United with him in his death if we're United with him in his death we're United with him in his resurrection and that's the good news is God enables Sinners to die with a prospect of Resurrection it's necessary for Sinners to die all Sinners Must Die There's no that's not a negotiable but the gospel does is enables Sinners to die and come back from the dead in Christ if they die in Christ they're they're raised in Christ if they die outside of Christ they die outside of Christ and perish

and perish eternally forever so this is good news incredibly good news and we stand there together now um that's pretty good so [Laughter] Far it it gets more difficult I uh I'm concerned about the complexity of this matter for people and uh so I I want us to say something about um why we're doing this why this matters why talking about end times matters and I know this might force you into your statement of where you are but see if you can hold that back for me I'm going to let you all talk about what

you believe about anything but why why would You think that people should care about trying to come clear on on eschatology on what's going to happen well I'll take a stab at that it would be like somebody saying um I want to embrace the doctrine of election but I don't want to think about whether it's conditional or unconditional or based on God's goodness or foreseeing faith or how it relates to uh the emerge the creation of saving faith in the human heart I just want to affirm election or I I want to affirm the Incarnation

of Christ but I don't want to really think it really doesn't help me to think that much about how the two Natures relate in the one person and and how he could live a sinless life and yet learn obedience um or saying uh I just want to affirm the death of Jesus but never bothering to think about how did his death save you what actually occurred in it what are the implications of it so I would say the same thing it would be Like somebody saying well we just want to affirm the second coming of

Christ but that's all and we don't want to learn what has led up to it and what it's purpose is and how it relates to God's overall plan and Redemptive history seems to me that uh we should want to know all of the implications both the the precedent the the preceding events the the consequences the timing uh all of the associated realities with Christ's second coming as much as we Would about his first coming as much as we would about his Incarnation his death on the cross so it provides us with I think um deeper

insights into the nature of God into how he Works uh into uh what his purposes are how he's glorifying Jesus if Ephesians 1 is correct and it is that all things are being U summed up in Christ uh how is that happening what what is the mechanism how is God showing his manifold wisdom the the Beauty and the Majesty of his character the Complexity of his ways and I think as we explore eschatology we see that so that's why I think it's important another reason for the importance of this discussion is um the holy spirit

in Ephesians 4 the holy spirit is building up his church and this is an eschatological reality that the bride is going to be presented without spot or wrinkle or any any any such blemish in Ephesians 5 in in Ephesians 4 there is a given real a Given Unity be careful to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of Peace by not quarreling and and being sinful toward one another but then he says until we all grow up into a perfect man until we all grow up into the unity of the faith so there's

a Unity that's given and there's a Unity we must grow up into and that Unity that we're growing up into is an eschatological Unity so you can't go grow up into that in a fit of Absent-mindedness you have to talk about it and think about it and prepare for it and the the central thing that's going to disrupt this coming Unity is sinful disruptions of the all the unity that's already granted and many churches and U have divided unfortunately over eschatological issues be not realizing either the complexity of it or discovering you could create a

sectarian mentality and and consider everybody in the other camps to be bad Or wrong two ministers were talking one time and and one was trying to be charitable he said we you know we both serve God you and your way and I in his that kind of thing can lead to just people getting cranked at each other and someone once said that the the Millennium the Millennium is a thousand years of peace that Christians like to fight about and and and what we would like to do is Figure out a way to grow up into

that thousand years of Peace so that when whenever it comes however it comes we are all sons that are worthy of it and of course worthy only in Christ and we would agree too that there's a blessing in Revelation on those who read and hear and keep what is written in this book and so to keep it we have to understand it to have this blessing and I think also of of texts like Isaiah 53 and Psalm 2 and and those those believing Meers members of the old Covenant Remnant who read those texts and tried

to put together what the outcome was going to be before Christ Christ came and then Jesus comes and on the road to emus in Luke 24 he says to these guys that didn't put it together the way that it developed and they didn't understand he said that they were fools and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets had spoken and we don't want to be there we don't want to be fools and slow of Heart to believe so these are important things to discuss you know what you said Doug about there being a

a continuity or it's of a peace with the present Unity and we're moving toward the fullness of unity that has a consummating point brought to my mind that prayer in fact set several points in Philippians my my prayer for you is that your love may abound more and more with knowledge and all discernment in Order that you may approve what is excellent so that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ that that's a prayer for right now for the day of Christ so that I I I think that's significant let's go

back to the uh what you you jumped on immediately in defining eschatology namely that we're we're in the last times I think it would be helpful before we get to Millennium and Define that and talk about it to try To get some structural things I don't know if we can get any Unity around this or not we'll see um anybody want to talk about I've got three texts written down here about two two ages this age the age to come um what what is that what are those ages I'll read the text okay here's Matthew

12:32 and whoever speaks a word against the son of man will be forgiven but whoever speaks against the holy spirit will not be forgiven either In this age or in the age to come or Ephesians 1:21 far above all Rule and Authority power and Dominion above every name that is named not only in this age but in the age to come would it help us just in general to get a a structure of history in terms of this vocabulary of this age and the age to come or would that muddy the waters unnecessarily you want

I don't think it'll mudy the waters But I think it might it'll probably lead to one of the first um differences um in 1 Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 10 Paul is talking to U the Corinthian Church and he's talking about the experience of the Jews in the wilderness and he talks about how they tempted Christ and they murmured and they grumbled and so forth and then in verse 11 of chapter 10 he said now all these things happened unto them for in samples and they are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of The

world ends of the ages are come so Paul is identifying the the Corinthians that he's speaking to and and he himself he's living in at at the End of the Age all right the these things were written as an example for us on whom the ends of the ages have come now my basic um grid and I'm just putting this out here now for definition sake is that the New Testament era was an ERA where ages overlapped the way you have a baton Exchange change in a relay race one Runner is continuing to run and

the other Runner starts before the other Runner stops and then there's a b baton exchange and I think that exchange on the track was the 40 years between Christ's resurrection and Ascension and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD so about 40 years two ages overlap the judaic age the age of types and shadows the age of Temple sacrifices was coming to an end the author of HEB says and it's about Ready to disappear it's about it's about done but it wasn't quite done yet and so it's coming to an end and

the new age I had hesitate to I believe in the new but the the good the good new age had the Christian the Christian Aon began at Pentecost so the the Christian Aon began before the judaic Aon ended and the first first century Christians were living in that Wilderness period between between these ages they were living in that overlap and Paul says we Are the ones on whom the ends of the ages have come so the age the present age and the age to come I take as the judaic Aon that's coming to A A

close even in the time of the New Testament and then the Christian Aon the age we're in the age to come and then when the Lord Jesus comes again that and the dead are raised that's the Eternal state so I'm not I'm not taking the age to come as the Eternal state would you say that that we live in the same kind of age That Paul lived in or that there was a fundamental change in 8070 I would say that Paul lives in the same kind of age that we live in because it was inaugurated

the difference was the old age had not yet run its course he lives Paul lived at the on the threshold of the Christian Aon and we're well into it and we're not into an age that has a a judaic Aon also running so Paul Paul lived in a unique spot that we're not in but he lived in the age that we're in I Would want to formulate things a little differently a lot differently a lot yeah and and I think the way the way I would go after it is I would point to the the

uh prophecies that the Old Testament prophets make and I think if we if we summarize Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and the 12 and boil down their message their basic message is we're going into Exile but after the Judgment after Exile there's a glorious eschatological future that awaits us past this judgment and The they describe this glorious eschatological future not only as a return to the land of Israel but also as a return to an edenic State and so it's almost as though they're dealing with two Exiles one from Eden and one from the land and they're

describing the Glorious Bliss as though it's all going to happen together and then the way it seems to play out is once Jesus comes it's as though those those blessings of the future reach back in and take hold Of the present in an already not yet kind of way future you don't mean post 70 AD no I mean you mean post second coming right exactly yes for you the age to come is the Millennium primarily well you know it's interesting there there are these disputes among the rabbis about whether what they sometimes refer to as

the age of the Messiah or the or the kingdom of the Messiah is going to be part of this age or the age to come and I think you would want to read that To fit your view but I would read what they refer to as the age of the Messiah as something like what I think John describes in Revelation 20 this Millennium and and I would read John in Revelation 20 as coming down on the side of those who argued that the kingdom of the Messiah was going to going to come before the corruptible

things were done away with and then we enter into an Incorruptible new heavens and new earth sketch your understanding of the two Ages okay just I I think it would help U if we just clarified what's just been said because the differences are clear and my and I would have a view different from both of them right what uh I think what and and correct me if I'm wrong Doug is saying just for the sake of clarification that for example in the Ephesians passage you referenced uh above every name that is named not only in

this age but also in the one to come That and Paul says in this age he's talking about the old judaic age that is uh gradually passing that would terminate with 70 AD and that the age to come as you understand it Doug is the age in which we're currently living correct Jim I think would say that in this age is the entirety of the church era between the two advents of Jesus and the age to come is primarily the Messianic Reign described in Revelation 20 known as the millennial Kingdom well I I think I

I think what I would do is come down with those rabbis who say no the millennial kingdom is going to be part of this age and then and then the age to come as the new heavens and new earth in revelation 21- 22 well then I'm closer to you than I thought because I would say that that uh and I appreciate Doug's position I think it'll probably come out a little bit more later on and I think he's got some good Arguments for it just not totally persuaded yet but I Would see this age also

as a reference as Jim does to the present Church age in which we live and I would but you would include the Millennium yes I would say the age to come is the new heavens and the new Earth which is inaugurated at the second Advent of Jesus and you would say that we're in the Millennium right now so that it's realized right yes but not but we'll have to Define in what sense when you say we are in the Millennium I believe the Millennium is Simultaneous with the present age I would not want to say

that I am in the Millennium and perhaps we get we'll explain that just moment and neither are and but so you're I just want to make sure I this right that you're putting the new heavens and the new Earth post Resurrection at the end of the yes world yes okay what about Isaiah um in uh what do people do in the new heavens and the new Earth in Isaiah well one of the things they do is they Die well we're going to go that path we can certainly do that uh we must go there because

because um but it might be premature to go there at this moment so Isaiah 65 the phrase new heavens and new earth is used and a baby uh grows up dies at 100 sorry about that I was IM monetizing our escaton here I was Rush rushing things it's all right right now um Mark 10:30 um receive a hundredfold now in This time houses brothers sisters mothers children lands with persecutions and in the age to come eternal life that that doesn't sound like post 70 AD it it sound and it doesn't sound like um I mean

it sounds like the point where we get eternal life it's that how shall I inherit eternal life it's my concern this this situation here and and he says uh you're going to get it uh not not in this age but you're going to get it in The age to come that fit what you said yeah I'm in the age to come and I have eternal life and so do you but is that the intention here so in the age to come so they didn't have eternal life till 78d well no what um in starting at

read 29 what you just read uh Jesus answered and said verily I say unto you there is no man that hath left house or brethren or sisters or Father or mother or wife or children or lands for my sake and the gospels but he shall receive a h hundredfold now in this time so um think for a minute about what Jesus is actually promising if this time is what age if the age if it's well there's what Jesus said but then there's what the what the what Mark intended to communicate and Mark is writing for

a Christian audience right after the time of Jesus right but Jesus said this right in the Jesus said this in the time of Jesus sure right but then but then but then Mark gives it to believers who live after the resurrection right right but the H hundredfold this this seems to me if you take it as a um um as a straightforward promise you're you're this is a high octane health and wealth passage not for John it didn't no no no no no it's not at all because 100 mothers is pretty clear right right that

is it's not literal 100 Mothers and 100 sisters that means that means I've got lots of friends who have lots of families and I I won't be destitute when but he but he's talking in in very earthy terms family children and and lands right it's a very um and he's talking to disciples who have given those things up right and have lots of people around them who and we would interpret this the way that uh Paul speaks to the Corinthians you know everything is yours the the everything Belongs to you now I I agree with

that but I would include that everything that belongs to you includes the land the the Earth all things are yours in Christ so it's not just spiritual blessings it is spiritual blessing preeminent uh you know the the spiritual reality is the governing thing but it it does it comes down to the level of family and relationship and land so H how how is we we won't press on this forever uh it's just when I'm Trying to understand your view about how this age is up till 70 AD o overlapping from Resurrection to 70 AD and

then and then the age to come begins there my whole conception is that the age to come uh begins at the second coming maybe maybe this will help when Jesus says in at the end of Matthew that behold I'm with you to the end of the age I don't believe that that means that Jesus will be with the disciples up to 70 AD and then at see you um so Jesus When he says I'll be with you to the end of the age we're not to infer from that that his promise is then null and

void for the age to come he's simply saying I'm going to be with you up to the end of the age and of course I'll be with you in the age to come I think what he's saying here is I'm going to bless you if you give if you surrender all things for my sake I'm going to I'm going to bless you I'll keep keep you I'll be with you bless you in just the way it's Describing here um family and lands and all of that and I will be with you he's not saying that

in this age you don't have eternal life and the next one you will and he's not saying in the age to come where you have eternal life you won't have spiritual family or blessings or you know if both things are true of both ages I it's important I think just again for the sake of clarity because I suspect that some who eventually watch This may not have been have never been exposed to what Doug is saying that the age which the disciples anticipated would come to an end that is being referred to here is in

what he is suggesting the Jewish age not the end of human history we tend to think most evangelicals think End of the Age means it's all over end of History time ends we either go Millennium or Eternal State Doug is saying something altogether different he is saying that it's the end Of the Jewish age that came about in 70 AD because of the destruction of Jerusalem the temple and God's judgment against um the nation right and I and I see that as the inauguration of the new heavens and the new Earth it's a new creation

uh all things have been made new and I don't see how and my central argument for that would be the fact that we worship on Sunday nothing if you look at what God says about the Sabbath and the Everlasting nature of the Sabbath in the Old Testament nothing would suffice to alter the Sabbath commemoration of the first creation short of a new creation the reason we worship on the Lord's day is because there's been a new creation all things have been made new now that doesn't mean the the kingdom of God the new age all

of this stuff that arrives doesn't arrive like the 82 Airborne it it arrives like um yeast that works through the loaf it's a it's a gradual Accumul accumulation thing throughout history so you wouldn't be able to pop up in 80 ad and take a photograph of it and say see you know see well it's it's a it's a tiny Rock that's been carved out in Daniel it's a tiny rock that starts small it's a mustard seed size thing then you can't see it you're not going to be able to see it really clearly until 3,000

years from now do you want to talk about the Millennium yeah Um one more premillennium question um do you all believe that the Lord Jesus is is coming back uh physically visibly to rain some way or other on the Earth forever yes yes yes okay well then guess that settles it um what is the final final Final condition of the universe where we will Spend eternity just describe it in a in a nutshell new heavens and new earth Incorruptible uh and I think that the description in Revelation 21 and 22 matches and exceeds point for

Point what we find in Genesis 1 and2 the description of the Garden of Eden it's a new and better Eden where uh God and the lamb are the temple they will see his face there will be no need of sun or moon there will be no sea no evil and it Will be a a perfectly clean and holy of holy place this Earth this Earth included so there's going to be a a a reunification of Heaven and Earth but this Earth is not rejected and I think the clearest uh place that's taught is in Romans

8 where the the whole creation groans waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God um and we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and the there are three groans in that passage the um the creation Groans uh we who have the first fruits of the spirit grown and the spirit helps helps us in our weakness with groans that that are too deep for words and all of that groaning is is TE logical it's focused toward the same end which is the revelation of our adoption as son which is the Redemption

of the body the resurrection of the dead so this created order this old Earth is longing for the day when the CH Christians are manifested for who they are because our Salvation will be this Earth's salvation and it will be swept up into this as you were saying this morning it's going to be God's going to blow the top of it so we can't connect so there's a not a um annihilation of the present order and a new one but rather what what would you call it um resurrected resurrected death and bu death and Resurrection

pattern for the created order just as for us yeah there's a continuity and discontinuity in terms of what will Happen with us in our Resurrection bodies we will be raised in these bodies but they'll be gloriously changed eradicated sin eradicated evil eradicated uh with new properties new capacities that we can't even begin to grasp we see a little bit of it in Jesus in his post-resurrection State upon the Earth and there will be continuity but also great discontinuity in moving from this Earth to the new Earth but I would agree with exactly how Jim had

uh had Described it just a moment ago and I'd also say I'm glad you read the Romans 8 passage because that's one of the reasons why I'm on millennial so you tip your hand I'm sorry for stumbling you so we're we're all moving toward uh in your book Heaven misplaced is it's called you have a phrase that I thought was provocative which is not unusual this world is not my home I'm Just a passing through and you changed it to you remember no I don't this he Heaven is not my home I'm just a passing

through right explain that um or I will if you can't remember yeah I I remember of don't remember what I I I remember it now but this is important because because a lot of us here uh I think in in America and evangelicalism uh think I'm going to heaven period it's I'm in heaven that's It and now I'm there and let's let's clarify that and what they think about when they think Heaven they get most of the Theology of Heaven from fars Side cartoons and Pearly Gates jokes and someone dies goes to be with the

Lord Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord so here are you believe that absolutely yeah Paul said it and it doesn't mean something weird I mean it just says what it Said Paul often means something weird yes okay but but not there right so uh to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord that means in 2009 if I die then I'm with the Lord instantly all right but let's say the second coming for the sake of discussion is a thousand years out still

so what what's the condition of The Departed Saint between this date and the day of Resurrection well that's the intermediate state for want of a better Phrase the intermediate state of Glory where you're with the Lord and many Christians have gone that far which is good the Bible I think the Bible teaches it Philippians one yeah absolutely is better it's better depart and to be with Christ if if I have a church member who dies this year I can say to them this is going to be so much better now absolutely keep going because you're

in the millennial reign of Christ save that yeah now he's eming the Es if so in that intermediate State many Christians have accepted that intermediate State as our final hope yes but in the Creed we confess that we believe in the resurrection of the Dead not in the immortality of the Soul now we do believe in ality so but but that's not our final hope our final hope is the dead are raised and so this intermediate state of Heaven many Christians have said that's my final hope and they think that they're going to die and

go off Into a 17th Dimension floaty place and this floaty place is something they can't even relate begin to relate to and so they don't think about it at all they sort of put it out of their minds because they can't get them am I going to be a human being what am I you know good grief and so they don't long for the day of Resurrection but what you were citing this morning when we see him we're going to become like him uh because we're going to see him as he is Everyone who has

this hope in himself purifies himself even as he is pure so when we hope for the day of Resurrection that has a sanctifica that's a sanctifying influence and if we get stuck halfway in the intermediate State we're we're not setting our final hope where we where we ought to to so when I said this world is not my home I'm just passing through and I flipped it Around Heaven is not my home I'm just passing through I was referring to that Intermediate State we're just passing through the intermediate State and when we're when when we

die and go to be with the lord it's better than here in that intermediate State because you're with Christ that's right but you still have something to look forward to yeah massive to look forward to Resurrection of the body and all of its capacities to Delight in Christ so we're still together right yes okay so die go to be with Christ uh whatever the time frame Is we wind up on a planet renovated is that word okay and um kind but radically renovated radically renovated no C you said that's going to disappoint a lot of

people does that bother you no I bothers me well the the ca I think is a symbol of evil in a place from which the Beast se but who knows that's good to hear him say it's a symbol yeah you can't let it go I'm eager Sam all about symbols yeah you came prepared to do one Thing yeah this one thing I did harp on amillennialism so at any rate no sea means something like I think it means the ocean becomes a lake lakes are okay right I I really believe that seas are dangerous they

have they have leviathans in them MH and they have depths that really scary and and you sink and you it's just horrible but Lakes go people go to lakes in Minnesota so I certain things need to be Mortified man not the love of lakes greatness but anyway so it's going to be different it's going to be good it we can tell our children I remember 9 years old lying on top of my house looking at the stars and not wanting heaven to come I'm scared of Heaven because it seem so ethereal so what was that

phrase you were using so floaty floaty I and I remember as a boy as a boy growing up in a conservative Evangelical situation I Remember distinctly not wanting to go to heaven I did not want to go to heaven because you couldn't play football there yeah yeah yep y right you couldn't do you didn't have a body the best answer to that is not that there'll be football there right however that Christ will be there we need to grow into that right but probably football right you hear that yeah the so maybe golf maybe remote

possibility assuredly baseball right right that's right so they get the idea We we get the idea that that we're all aiming toward new Earth new Heavens radically gloriously 10,000 times better no sun needed the moon was replaced by the lamb who is the lamp and and uh just stunningly attractive and we'll all want to be there and and and all the capacities test this one because I really want us to agree on on these massive things all the capacities for senses have not been created to be thrown away right taste sight touch Smell hearing music

right art all the things that seem to enrich the life that isn't just scraping out a living will be maximized there and and Christ will radiate off from right and and what the the point about football and golf and those things the underly the subtext there is we will have bodies yes we will be human beings we're not going to be ghosts and many Christians have become gnostics you know if you tell them that Jesus rose from the dead spiritually They'll fight you tooth and nail because that's liberalism but when you ask them what you

what will your body be like they often B you know body and I I can't tell you how many times when I've emphasized Jesus in his resurrection appearance he goes into the kitchen and he rummages in the fridge for some fish fish and honey and he and he and he um sets up a little Barbecue on the beach and John and cook some fish there everybody Christians know that Jesus had A body but Philippians says that our lowly bodies are going to be transformed to be like his body and many Christians don't think that they

will have bodies and that's the the point of this however glorious it is it's going to be further up and further in it's going to be I think this is one of the best things about Lewis is going to be more solid more material more glorious more weighty not um not a ghostly um ethereal existence Amen now on the way there uh what do we encounter so now I want you guys to just take whatever amount of time you want within you know limits to sketch your position premillennial if you want to be called that

post millennial if you want to be called that a millennial if you want to be called that so start and let the let the Watchers of this thing know what that is and and whatever else you want to say about it why you like it why You believe it but it can't be forever okay so just relatively and whatever why don't we go like this I think the the the key question here and and the question that settles this discussion is does or does not John intend to teach that there is going to be this

Thousand-Year period between a first resurrection and a second Resurrection yeah so can I just suggest this sure sketch your position all of you and then let's go there okay in in detail read it Okay read it is that okay you want me to read this passage now I want to do that after we get the sketch after we sketch the position is that right sure sure I mean if you don't like that just tell me I don't like that do it another way well my position is that Revelation does communicate symbols but we should interpret

the symb symb in relationship to one another and that if we do that there it is clear that there's going to be a resurrection of Believers and then They will reign with Christ for a thousand years and then there will be another Resurrection a great white thr Jud the next thing on the agenda is Christ comes Christ comes that's right where res all the Believers rise the unbelievers do not rise in this first resurrection and then the Believers all reign with Christ for a thousand years right literally on the earth literally on the earth Jesus

is here in his resurrection body and and Premillennialists often say that uh there are unbelievers who survive his first coming and enter into the Millennium and that they then uh have Offspring and that not necessarily everyone is regenerated in that period and and if this seems fantastic and uh difficult to believe um again I just want to to point to this being a plausible idea for contemporaries of the authors of these texts and um so anyway after this period after this Thousand-Year Reign uh there will be an uh a releasing of Satan he's been bound

for this Thousand Years there'll be a final Rebellion it will be put down and then the great white Throne judgment will be set up so I I read Revelation and then comes the new heavens and the new Earth that's correct okay I think that's pretty clear so you you assumed you mentioned it in retrospect that when he comes when Christ comes and the Resurrection There's a binding and a pit thing there going on yes that's right get to that we'll read that passage okay so Christ comes Christians are raised unbelievers are not the Millennium which

refers to a thousand year says he's going to Reign for a thousand years okay Thousand Years um of reigning final judgment new Heavens new Earth your time it's I'm happy to be called a post millennialist although uh I think it is unfortunate that all the Major positions are named after a word that occurs in one chapter I think one of the most difficult chapters in one of the most difficult books of the Bible and then all the positions take their um their orientation from what where do you think Christ's coming is going to be with

relationship to that Millennium so on Revelation 20 there are a number of things that I haven't sorted out yet but I've sorted out enough to know that I believe myself to be AOS what is Commonly called a post millennialist and that is U just something on the Book of Revelation Ambrose bece in his uh book The Devil's dictionary said U defined apocalypse as a book in which St John the Divine concealed all that he knew um the revealing is done by the commentators who know nothing you know so with that as a warning to myself

um he my understanding of the the map of uh Redemptive history is that God Created man in an the identic state we rebelled and fell God promised a messiah through types and shadows and sacrifices prepared the way tilled the soil preparing the way for the the restoration of Eden when Christ came in the fullness of time he was born of a woman born under the law he was crucified for the the sins of all his people buried raised from the dead and ascended into heaven gave His holy spirit at in 70 AD that age of

Preparation came to a climac climactic convulsive conclusion and short tell the people why I'm not everybody here knows what happened in 70 in 70 AD um the temple was destroyed by the Roman army um there was a Revolt of the Jews against uh Rome uh it lasted for uh the the Revolt lasted interestingly for 42 months uh excuse me Nero's persecution of the church lasted for 42 months which is named in u the Book of Revelations that the period of time that the Beast Would be attacking the uh the Saints so I believe that this

climatic this convulsive CH conclusion to the age of preparation came in 78 ad up to that time it was possible for Christians to go to the temple and worship as Paul as Paul did Paul would would go there and preach he took a Nazarite vow and you know he was still functioning in the structure of the temple because it was as the author of Hebrews said it didn't end in 33 ad it it's fading away it's It's about to be done at Pentecost the new age was established the Christian Aon was established and I I

believe postmillennialism in brief is this it's the it's the idea that the gospel is going to grow and flourish and and um take over the whole earth basically the Great Commission will be successful prior all the nations discipled baptized taught obedience the the the Great Commission will be successful on Earth in history the world will be Christianized then Jesus will come all enemies will be subdued brought under his feet Psalm 110 the Lord said to my Lord sit at my right hand which that happened in the Ascension Jesus went ascended into heaven and God told

him sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a foot stol so Christ's enemies are made a foot stol progressively throughout all history and then he will come and judge The Last Enemy personally death so at the conclusion of the Christian Aon which I the Millennium I take as a symbol of this Christian Aon the this age of Grace the age in which the Great Commission is being fulfilled at the end of this Christ will come again and destroy the Last Enemy death the dead will be raised and we are ushered into the

Eternal state so I believe that judaic Aon New Creation new heavens and earth the age to come now Satan is bound now yes with regard to deceiving the Nations and Revelation was written before 8070 yes I'm yes thank you um I believe the Book of Revelation was all the other books in the new and I believe all the whole new testament I believe was written prior to 70 AD um so I believe that John is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem um the the great Harlot I take is the city of Jerusalem so when Paul tells

the Thessalonians that they were destined to suffer and when Peter says to the Christians that he writes to that that uh they were called for this to follow in Jesus footsteps suffering that applies to those Christians before 70 AD or to us now too it it certainly applies to them that was the context in which that was being written but um the same thing app lies to us as well the the even though we're going to take over the Earth well certainly it's especially because we're going to take over so the point is um when

you uh when the gospel Goes Forth it's going forth into a a hostile world so we're declaring that Christ is Lord Christ is King they don't want him to be king they want to deny that so you're going to see the same thing played out over and over again so but you're saying that the gospel is going to take over right and that we're going to dominate The World by at which point the suffering would end well or if I mean you said a minute ago we're in the Millennium right right so suffering Is ended

for you uh well I hate to break it to you not not at this very moment not not well this although you're you're you count it all joy I'm doing okay here's so here's the um if you take the Millennium as there's a difference between some of the 19th century post millennialist and uh some of the Contemporary ones or whether the thousand years is literal some say that the great the great Commissions fulfilled progressively finally gets to a certain Tipping Point and then there's a l literal Thousand-Year Golden Age be before the end uh others

U more contemporary postmill post millennialist generally take it as the entire church age but there's a so can you explain to me how the suffering Dynamic works the suffering Dynamic is the way the golden age is user in is constant in all ages and it's the the blood of the martyrs is The seed of the church we we don't so you never really realize the Millennium where the gospel has taken over and suffering ends uh no because Christ is for example Christ is not suffering now but he has suffered so you can enjoy the fruit

of V you can but I'm asking about the suffering that we do as we follow in the footsteps of Christ right as we as we suffer as we sacrifice As we send missionaries out to preach the gospel as people um give their lives away not wasting their lives as they as they do this sort of thing God honors it God blesses it and when God blesses it subsequent Generations enjoy the fruit of of that and at some point in history you have to enter into that possession but I'm pressing this question because I think the

New Testament is clear that Christians are going to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and conqu the way he Conquered by being faithful unto death not loving their lives even un death until he comes and then there'll be this this Millennium but that's clear from what I said a minute ago and I don't see how that fits in the post-millennial but see we' all have the same problem right in the in the Millennium you still have followers of Jesus you still have regenerate people who aren aren't being persecuted but at that point the all everyone

who's Beheaded on behalf of Jesus gets raised and Christ now Reigns The Way That You Say He reigns now right and there's no more persecution of Christians because Satan is bound right according to I mean according to the way that I would read Revelation 20 so to as a quick answer to this I would say that if you take martyrdom and suffering as a bare minimum that you can't be a disciple unless that's unless it's happening to you that leaves a lot of North American Christians up a creek right well they may not be assaulting

us physically but they're but they're coming at us and and telling us basically that our heads are in the sand or they're in various ways telling us to be quiet at the Thanksgiving din the way the the the recipients of Peter's first letter did right verbal right not necessar physis marginalized that's right and I it seems to me that your position would demand that all that's Over if we're in the Millennium and Satan is bound well let me let me ask it this way um just sketch out a little more the Golden Age cuz that's

never been clear to me from Edwards I me you should people should know that you're you're you're on the side of my favorite Theologian I know okay I was going to bring that up this is a problem to me there there's two main arguments for post millennialism one it's a lot of fun and number two Jonathan Edwards believed And Jonathan Edwards believed it and I'm tempted to rest my kid believed at past tense yeah that's right he doesn't believe it anymore not anymore that's right that's right that's right not anymore and I and I think

John is a greater Authority than Jonathan Edwards and I want to argue eventually although I'm the moderator and I'm supposed to be careful um that the very fun I don't like the word but I know what you Mean that you have can be had by all three of these views big time right I mean that's I read you and I think hm H practically how is this working out we we'll we'll go there so I I I don't get Edwards you get Edwards but but I I do get fun I get the fun yeah you

can have but but I want him to sketch it out how long does the Golden Age have to last like five years well uh a year uh and and how do you know when you're there and what is it 70% or Christian or 80 or You got any of that in your head actually that that's a that is a lot that's an easy one because the answer to all of that is man we don't know we don't know we how how could we know that it does not yet appear if the final end result it

does not yet appear uh what we're going to be like could it be right now could it be right now we we there well yeah I suspect cool not oh I did they enter into it when they had The Shining City on the hill here when they first came over and and they had this society that was dominated by Believers yeah that's one of the problems is that Christians frequently because uh um I should say that from the Reformation very early on within the first few Generations in the Reformation down through Jonathan Edwards and and

men like Warfield the uh po The post-millennial View has been very very common in reformed um circles it was the Received um view for for a long period of time and one of The Temptations of post millennialist and this goes off of your talk this morning uh about the new heavens and the new Earth and in confusing the gift with the giver and your talk last night there's a there's a tempt the Temptation that post millennialist face is that of getting cozy settling down and calling what God has the blessings that God really is giving

to them the this is the final Deal but eyes not seen or ear heard what God's prepared for for those who love him and so we what we do is we rush it and so we The Shining City on a Hill can well go ahead The Shining City on the hill you have a continent before you you've got able Bible teachers you've got reformed life and worship what else could there be Jesus has to be coming you know soon this is the Golden Age we've got a great opportunity and one of the things that we

should learn Sage Once said the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history we really need to be humble about what's it going to look like in the year 3500 I don't have any idea of what it's going to look like I know that taking it in 500e chunks I believe that it's going to be a whole lot better for the gospel and for the Nations and for the people of God then than now just as we are in a much um our our Sufferings are nothing compared to what happened

in the persecutions under Dian right but there are people in Iran maybe or in Turkey who maybe have it as bad or Worse absolutely yeah the the the 20th century was the Century of martyrdom there were more Martyrs in that Century but in in our stream we have it better than they did because of what they did we've inherited that blessing now what I'm saying is that process can occur through in all nations at all all time And in subsequent Generations can receive the benefit of the faithfulness of previous generations so you have a huge

ambiguity in Discerning what the condition at the end will be and and I do too mine is I'm not sure what the reaching of all the nations will be Matthew 2 I prefer to call it principled ambiguity okay instead of huge huge yeah ambiguity on purpose okay but it it does it does leave open some remarkable possibilities like he could come very Soon not like a thousand years from now and the global South events and the massive spread of Christianity in Latin America and Asia and Africa as thin as it may be the books that

are being written about the new christom and so on are perhaps enough correct that he could come soon right I said earlier I suspect not but it's certainly possible I I think it'd be dangerous and arrogant to prescribe for God what he can and can't Do and this could if th if this is um his time I suspect we're still in the period of the early church but if that's wrong um I I would uh I was talking to Sam earlier I heard I only met um Rush Dy the Reconstructionist guy one one time I

saw him at a conference and he said something on this uh with regard to the premillennial option which I would amen hardly and that is he he said I'm not opposed to changing my theology in midair that so we're all going to be in Midair we're all I think we're going to be agreement about that just where do we go once we meet him in the midair there's another view yeah I of course Sam he tried to jump the gun and now you're having to wait all right I've always wanted to do pen in 30

seconds distinguish give me the outline that that the basic distinction is that the premillennial all the positions are named with reference to where you place The second coming of Christ with regard to the Millennium so the Prem premillennial view is the Millennium is a thousand years of piece on Earth and Christ comes prior to the Millennium so hence premillennial post millennial says that the Millennium is an Earth has an Earthly manifestation and we can see the progress of the Gospel in time and history on Earth and Christ's coming is after the Millennium post post millennial

so that's the that's the Basic distinction between pre and post wow there are so many things that both that they've both said that I agree with and many things that I disagree with um first of all you're representing a view that I don't like the label U but I'm Millennial because it suggests that I don't believe in a millennium I believe the Millennium is literal real vibrant tangible but it's in heaven and I think that what re What doug described as the intermediate state where your Father is right now where my father is right now

where Jonathan Edwards is right now where Augustine is right now the those are the Saints described in Revelation 20: 4-6 who are reigning with Christ in the intermediate State spanning the duration of the present Church age between the two comings of Jesus that constitutes the millennial Reign so I don't embrace the millennial the on millennial view which um I hear so often expressed that it's the reign Of Christ over the hearts of his people in the church right now I don't believe that I think the millennial Reign is the reign of those who had been

beheaded for the testimony of Jesus he's talking about those in the intermediate State between the two comings of Christ so do believe very much in a millennium in fact it's interesting there was no such label as a millennialism really until about the early 20th century all amillennialists Were called post millennialist I'm post-millennial in the way that Doug is in the sense that I believe that the return of Christ comes post or after the Millennium his Millennium is on the earth it's the progressive Triumph of the church through the gospel and the power of the Holy

Spirit I believe the Millennium is in heaven it constitutes the reign of Christ with his Saints in the intermediate state so I would agree with Jim that the problem that I have With Doug's view is that when I read 2 Corinthians 4 and 6 and Romans 8 and elsewhere I believe that the the people of God on the earth will continue to suffer uh that that's a global phenomenon that may be more intense in one side of the Earth than the other we don't suffer here we can't even we shouldn't even allow be allowed to

say that when we think of uh our brothers and sisters in China or in Iran or in Indonesia and other places but suffering Will continue good and evil will follow parallel paths there will be the expansion of the kingdom of Satan and his the intensification of his persecution of the church at the same time that there is an expansion of the gospel and the the progressive Triumph of Jesus and that these will be terminated consummated in the second coming of Christ at which time there will be the final judgment final Resurrection the inauguration of the

Eternal State the new heavens and the new Earth um I you mentioned in the introduction both Jim and I graduated from Dallas Seminary so there was a time when um I embraced very enthusiastically The View that he articulated and but you held the whole dispensational view right when I was in when I was in Dallas it was couple years after I got out through George lad's influence that I abandoned dispensationalism and then about 1984 Became an all millennialist so you went from dispensationalist to Historic premale to all Millennial and the reason I did very simply

if I can he's he's a pilgrim that's right I'm a Sojourner you think he's almost there don't you that's right just just keep going and and the uh the reason why I moved from premillennialism to amillennialism and I'll State this probably in five minutes I kept reading the new testament which seemed consistently over and over Again to teach that physical death terminates with the second coming of Christ when is when is the death of death when does death die when is it swallowed up in Victory I would agree with Doug on this point at the

second coming of Jesus 1 Corinthians 15: 50-58 it is when the the Lord returns and we are changed corruptible to Incorruptible that death citing the passage from Isaiah death is swallowed up in Victory I also Kept reading the New Testament it seemed to me and here's where I differ with Doug that at the second coming of Christ is the inauguration of the new heavens and the new Earth not a thousand years later I also in reading the New Testament referring to Romans 8 came to understand that the curse is lifted from this present Earth that

the the natural order is redeemed and enters into the fullness of of its uh regeneration simultaneously with that Which occurs to the children of God they are they are correlated as as Doug said and so that the curse is completely lifted from the natural order at the same time it is lifted from us and therefore I don't see how you can have a thousand years after that in which unbelievers and eventually even Satan himself wreak havoc upon this Earth because that would say the curse perpetuates beyond the second Advent so you're saying that all these

other texts In the new Testament control and determine your reading of Revelation 20 largely not no no let me fin not not entirely but largely you're right I'm sitting here at one time but let me just make it clear because we'll come to this I'm not an amillennialist in spite of Revelation 20 I'm an amillennialist precisely because of it I think it is enthusiastically clear on amillennialism well but let I can't wait to talk about that pass yeah let me finish my point I Also believe as I read the New Testament that the second coming

of Christ terminates all possibility of getting saved it's this age in which salvation is possible but as Jim said there are going to be countless who knows thousands if not Millions coming to faith in Christ after the second coming I don't see that in the New Testament furthermore it seems to me I and I agree with Doug on this that at the second coming of Christ is the final Resurrection for both the good and the evil at the second coming of Christ is the final judgment for both good and evil um and so so I

kept seeing the New Testament say that at the second coming of Jesus all these things terminate consummate conclude which would Prelude the Thousand-Year Reign that I formerly believed which says physical death continues resurrections continue judgments are continuing and are separated and maybe even occur multiple Times throughout the whole Thousand Years people keep coming to faith in Christ the text that I read in the New Testament simply would not allow that happen can I ask you a question sure okay at the end of the gospels how does Judas die how does he how does he perish

at the how does his physical body die at the end of the gospels is this a trick question no it's not I just want you to tell me the Answer sounds tricky to me yeah but I I want to know well you know like when acts where he F no no no I'm asking about the gospels in the gospels he hung himself right mhm does that preclude what acts tells us about how he dies because that's the way you're arguing no it's not he was dead when he hung himself he died he didn't die again

in Acts but all acts tells us is that he fell headlong and his insides bust out right so he Hangs himself the way you're you're harmonizing yeah you're harmonizing well sure I am why can't we harmonize what Revelation 20 says with what all these other texts say about when when the resurrection Tex don't allow it if Death Dies at the second coming of Christ then why can't we say the gospels don't allow the fact that he fell headlong and his insides burst but he only died once he only died once he didn't die at the

end of the gospels but and die say Anything about him hanging himself you believe he died twice no no I'm saying we're harmonizing the two passages we're harmonizing the death of Judas from what what the gospels tell us and what acts tells us and I'm saying that we we can do the same thing see it seems to me that your main argument premillennialism is the rest of the New Testament precludes that interpretation absolutely and I'm arguing that that is that's your problem not the Bible's Problem the Bible gives us this information it's our responsibility put

Corinthians 1550 and following we shall not EP we shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet the last trumpet the trumpet sound dead will be ra it's our responsibility it's not the Bible's problem but there's there's the Bible is not precluding inter but wait a minute let let me point that earlier in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says very clearly That me wait a second that that talking about the resurrection then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every Rule and every

Authority and power for he must Reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet The Last Enemy to be destroyed is death let me just finish and then in that same chapter he then tells us when Death Dies when that last enemy is put to rest and in cites the The Prophecy from Isaiah death is Swallowed up in Victory death where is your Victory death where is your sting it happens at the second coming so my point is how then milons of people continue to die physically after the second coming your view demands

that what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 is exhaustive in other words about about the termination of physical death absolutely it's exhaustive it's exhaustive on en enies The Last Enemy to be destroyed is Death and and I think that I want to respond to you the same way that that I suspect maybe Simeon you know when he talks about the sword that's going to pierce Mary's Soul might have responded to some triumphant Messianic conquering King person interpreter you know Simeon I think would probably say don't you think it's possible that the Messiah might have

to suffer and and and I think that conquering Messiah person would say no Psalm 2 and Isaiah 9 and all these other texts preclude that interpretation just like you're saying and and I think it's possible that God can weave these things together so the question is what does revelation 20 teach but Jim you'd have to you'd have to come up with with the Simeon thing you the P the discussion would say all right you've got these triumphant Messiah and then you've got the suffering servant you've got a a bunch of texts that would that would

Require the harmonization there in in the situation here what you would need is texts that talk about enemies to be subdued after The Last Enemy is subdued and that's that's the difficulty so there's harmonization and there's so on the AXS case I think all of us who've gone through the synoptics know what harmonization looks like but there sometimes I think we've all seen uh well-meaning Christians harmonizing away and there was too much there to Harmonize again I say the question is what does revelation teach and if it teaches that there's a millennium it's our responsibility

to put it together with with the rest of the Bible not to say Revelation 20 can't be teaching that and I then to look for another way I would say if Revelation 20 teaches uh a premillennial view as you articulate it I have to abandon biblical inherency no no no no you don't say no there's no no yes I do wait well good grief Sam don't Say that well no yes I do because it would teach me something explicitly contrary to what Paul is teaching me in Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 15 you just need

to go reread that passage and be a little bit more creative and imaginative in your your I think I could give you a plausible interpretation of verses 50 to 58 of 1 Corinthians 15 that would make room for the Millennium I think you're absolutizing the death of death there when you don't need to if if you're Required to let Millennium happen you'd read that text and you say it's not Absolut IED my death is overcome the decisive blow is struck but it's loose it's it's open to expansion and death decisively happens there but if that

were all that Paul said about what happens at the second coming but I believe he also says that that's when the resurrection occurs for both the good and the evil I believe he also says as in 2 Thessalonians 1 that it is at That time that the Lost are cast into Eternal destruction not a thousand years Old Testament prophets make it sound like when the Messiah comes the new age is going to Dawn the desert's going to bloom the spirit's going to be poured out on from on high and and we believe that what's happened

it did well we believe and death died we believe that what happened is Jesus came and some those blessings reached back and took hold of the present in an already not Yet kind of way so already in many ways but not yet like it's going to be someday and see Jim I would I would tend to you can do the same things with what you're talking about in I don't believe you can and I will just simply say this I believe that um I believe that Revelation 20 confirms and supports the interpret I believe in

the inherency of scripture I believe John is consistent with Paul as we go to Revelation 20 I'd Like to I'd like to say something about it and that is that the Thousand you've got a thousand years in Revelation 20 at the near the climax of a a book which is crammed full of um symbols numbers uh you've got um let interpret the symbols in relationship to each other right okay and let's interpret the numbers and the periods of time in relationship to each other don't relativize it too quickly yeah we can't Just flatten the symbols

as though they don't mean anything we don't want no here's the guy I'm agreeing with I want him to walk us through the text and and and you you say it is precisely because of the text that you are a amillennialist and you say it's precisely because the text that you are so we're here we got a half an hour roughly and there's a her I'd like to just throw this hermeneutical principle you interpret the clear text uh the the Unclear text in the light of the clear text okay now we all agree with that

in principle yes the devils in the details yes I think Revelation clear yes amen Revelation 20 is clear so then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding his in his hand the key to the bottom of Revelation verse1 and a great chain and I just want to observe that there's an angel coming down from heaven here and and if you look back at Revelation 9 verse1 uh the fifth angel blows his Trumpet I saw a star falling from Heaven to Earth he was given the key to the shaft of a bottomless pit let's

say the angel is symbolic let's say the shaft is symbolic let's say the key is symbolic in Revelation 9 they open the bottomless pit and all these demonic beings come rushing out the opposite of that is about to happen in Revelation 20 okay so let's interpret the symbols in relationship to to each other amen um so this guy in Revelation 20:1 has the key To the bottomless pit and a great chain note the key and the chain verse two he seized the dragon that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him key

chain seized Bound for a thousand years comment on the thousand years we've got all these periods of time in Revelation we've got an hour we've got 10 days we've got uh forever and ever and a thousand years is different from all those symbols right an hour is a period of time that the that the Beast Is going to have authority in Revelation 7 1712 10 days is how long one of those churches is going to suffer back in Revelation 2 A Thousand Years is a different symbol no it's it's a different period of time than

those other periods of time no it's not 10 days no but you got also got 42 months you've got right he's just saying it's different I don't know why you're saying it my point is I I would argue that those 42-month periods interpret the Whole time between uh the two advents of Christ and now we've got a different period of time I agree with you yeah we've got a different period of time a thousand years that's describing something different than that different yeah symbolizing something different is what I'm saying I think it's symbolizing the same

period Well we would have to we would have to flesh out the details okay keep going okay so he throws him into the pit in verse three and he shut it And he sealed it and let me just observe there's a key there's a chain he seizes the dragon he binds him he throws him in the pit he shuts the pit and he seals the pit over him so that he might not deceive the Nations any longer until the thousand years were ended now if this is the same period as the church age the 42

months we look back at Revelation 12 where I would argue in Revelation 12: 7- 12 we have a sort of cosmic depiction of Christ's Triumph on the cross and Satan Is thrown down to the Earth and he's not bound verses 13 through 17 he sees that he has a short period of time and he goes off to make war on the woman and her seed which I think is persecution of the church so so according to your reading Sam Satan is both making war on the church and her the woman in her seed the church

and he's bound and Chained and cannot deceive the Nations ABS any longer absolutely and and and I think I think that is taking two symbols that Are meant to communicate different ideas is and flattening them and making them the same thing okay let me you sound like we did sound about 10 minutes ago let me respond okay first of all talking about Revelation 12 and Revelation 20 we have two scenes here that are designed to describe manifestations of the victory of Christ through his life death and resurrection and exaltation of the right hand of the

father Revelation 12 we have This this scene of a battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his we have this this idea if Satan is cast down from Heaven to Earth well we don't mean that in a literal spatio geographical sense because certainly you're not going to say that Satan was never on the earth before because Jesus encountered him in the wilderness job certainly had encounters with him so what's the point what's the the end what's the meaning of the symbols or the Or the imagery it is that by virtue of what Christ

has accomplished described in the first part of Revelation 12 Satan can no longer accuse the Brethren with any degree of success but that's exactly what he does in Revelation 13 the next chapter second so the point is that by virtue of what Christ has accomplished the legal strength of his accusations against us are empty Romans 8 who shall bring anything to the charge of God's elect God is the one who justifies how Is that portrayed with regard to Satan it's portrayed as a casting down to the Earth well guess what he's already been here it's

not as if he never was before and it's not as if he isn't in heaven as well so he's describing in Revelation 12 that manifestation of the victory of Christ over the enemy Revelation 20 he's describing another manifestation with different symbolism now he's saying because of the Life Death Resurrection exaltation of Christ Satan is also Restrained with regard to deceiving the Nations lest they uh provoke as it were a premature Armageddon because he says in verse 7 that when he gets out of the Abyss after the Thousand Years what does he do he goes forth

to deceive the Nations to gather them together in a cosmic battle against the people of God right so we have two chapters both of which are describing the effects of the Life Death Resurrection exaltation of Christ on the powers of Darkness they're Using different symbolism different imagery to describe different aspects of his victory one the accuser can no longer bring a successful charge against God's people another the accuser can no longer deceive the nation prevent the gospel from going to the ends of the Earth or prematurely provoke Armageddon they're perfectly compatible and I think they

both refer to what happened in the first century in conjunction with the first coming ofr I think there are two Reasons why you can't read Revelation 12 as though it's describing the same thing is revelation 20 number one well not the same thing I just said they're different manifest different expressions of the same reality of the reality of the effect of the life death and resurrection of Jesus on the powers of darkness and I would argue that the details of the two passages are too different so that in at the end of Revelation 12 Satan

is making war on the Saints and in Chapter 13 he's given Authority for 42 months now now how can he have Authority for 42 months while he's uh seized and bound and shut and sealed in the pit it's very simple you have to ask the question let me give you my second reason I seized and bound and shut up with respect to what well to deceiving the Nations and provoking global Assault exactly what he's doing in Revelation 11 through 13 so the other reason that that I think your Interpretation just utterly fails with all love

to you um and I appreciate you and and and you know that I love you um is is the literary structure of the book so I think we have to ask ourselves the question why does the seventh trumpet come right in the middle of the book and not at the end of the book and I would argue that the reason is because so you have Revelation 11:1 15-19 where the seventh trumpet is blown and the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of Our Lord and of his Christ on either side of that in

re the first part of Revelation 11 and uh uh Revelation 12 into the first part of 13 you have Satan making war on the church in those two passages that's the way I would read those passages can I thr something in in here um if it would be helpful I if go ahead I feel that it will be helpful th I think this is an illustration of the hermeneutical principle that I wanted to start with you interpret the Unclear passage in the light of the clear one all right so Matthew 2028 Jesus came and said

unto them all powers given unto me in heaven and on Earth go ye therefore and teach All Nations baptizing him in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Holy Ghost teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I've have commanded you and lo I with you always even unto the end of the World second 2 Corinthians 4 4 in their case the God of This world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ and so forth 1

Peter 58 Satan is prowling around like a roaring lion seeking whom he Dev he thinks that freedom of the devil stopped at 70 AD yeah God of this age oh my so Jesus said I would agree with you see I would agree with you on that Jim I and I would think shifting Allan that's right but I didn't where was he going finish finish finish So are you saying Jim that no unbeliever can come to Faith CHR no first yeah okay let's get I've lost control yeah Matthew 28 what was the point the point in

Matthew is Jesus gives the church our marching orders what's unclear about it he says I have all authority in heaven and on Earth it's all mine right okay and uh he says on that basis go disciple the Nations baptize ing them teaching them obedience this is a clear passage it's not clear About the implications of how free the devil is well it's clear about what we're told to do yeah all right we're told to disciple the Nations baptize them and teach them obedience because Jesus has all authority in heaven and on Earth and there's there's

no um symbolic numerology here there's no there's there's no dragons or women or or or or or trumpets or or rivers of blood or and so the point with regard to the the the point is that when I read Matthew 28 and I get the church's marching orders this is a clear passage we're told what to do we're told to evangelize the world we're told to disciple the Nations and Jesus said all authority in Heaven and Earth That's the basis for it now in R and this drives how we are to read Revelation so when

we get to Revelation and and we're told uh that the time is short the time is near this is all this is coming at you like a freight train it's almost on top of us and then in the Very beginning of the book he says and hath made us Kings and Priests unto God and his father to him be glory and Dominion forever in 1 six and then in five it says uh in chapter five it says and has made us unto our God Kings and Priests and we shall reign on the earth okay this

is not a Heavenly Reign this is we shall reign on the earth now when I go through the Book of Revelation one of the things I try to do and this is sort of just like a a principled Ambiguity earlier a principled not agnosticism I I but I want to read through the Book of Revelation sitting loose to the details because I um if I could quote Chester and he said that um that St John the Divine saw many strange monsters in his vision but none so strange as any one of his own commentators and

one of the things that I think that we need to do is say look I think the census of the Christian Church through 2,000 years is that the Book of Revelation is not as clear as the book of Romans The Book of Revelation is not as clear as the book of Galatians we have so what do we hold it what what should be the governing principle the governing text I think our marching orders to evangelize the world to preach the gospel to Every Creature to exercise this sort of Spiritual Authority through the gospel and through

the gospel only should come it should bring us to the point where we Say okay now I come to the Book of Revelation I come to the 20th the 20th chapter I have it I agree with you that you've got uh time indicators half an hour in heaven and you know 42 months and that sort of thing but you have a, you have 144 you have 1,00 stadia as the lengths of the sides of the New Jerusalem which is a perfect Cube all of these indicate that I'm dealing with apocalyptic literature that was a genre

that was and it sounds like you don't Want to try to interpret it no I'm I want to try to interpret it but I want to do it in a post millennial setting where we have lots of [Laughter] [Applause] time we've been working on it for 2,000 years yep and the only and I I believe that we will need lots of time in order to work through uh in order to work through it I do believe that it was a revelation not a hiding you know it's an Unveiling it's a um it's meant to bless

us and reveal certain things to us but I go back to Revelation 20 I think we have to go to Revelation 20 knowing that that is going to be a harder nut for us to crack than some of so let's let him keep cracking for a few more minutes okay all right so so in verses 1 through three of Revelation 20 it looks to me like Satan's activity is totally shut down no longer is the world 1 John 59 under the power of the evil one now the evil one Is in the pit and the

pit is shut and it's sealed and then verse four I saw Thrones and seated on them were those to whom authority to judge was committed also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus they were physically killed right and for the word of God and who had not worshiped the beast that's what everybody was tempted to do back in Revelation 135 uh the Beast has this head he's got seven heads and one of the Heads has a mortal wound and one of and it came back to life and

I think the point is the Beast has faked something like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus so the Beast has done something that looks like what God has done and all these and the whole world worships it except for Revelation 138 those whose names are written in the Book of Life uh and so forth who do you believe the beheaded are the beheaded are those who didn't worship the Beast or its image in Verse four here but where do you place them in history all I would say all uh faithful Believers throughout church history okay

even though the Beast is not throughout all church history no I no the Beast has Authority for 42 months and and before that the first uh well depending on how you interpret those 42 months I would suggest that either those 42 months are the second half of Daniel's 70th week or maybe uh the whole of Christian Church History agree with That by the way Revelation tells us exactly who The Souls of those who had beheaded for the testimony of Jesus for the word of God are earlier in chapter 6 I looked under the altar to

and saw The Souls of those who had been slain for the word of God for the witness they had borne precisely the same Greek language is used and he's talking about those in the intermediate State no no no no no yes he is revelation those in the intered what happens to them after the IM intermediate State at the end of verse four they came to life and reigned with Christ for a th000 years so first the Beast Revelation 13:5 has Authority for 42 months Revelation 138 he kills he makes war on the church and beheads

these people and then after the intermediate State they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years and then verse five the rest of the Dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended there's two Resurrections one on each side of the thousand years and then at the end of verse 5 there this is the first resurrection in W uh whom you love and uh in right looks at all of the the uses of uh anastasis and related terms all through Greek literature leading up to Revelation 20 and he says

that for this to mean something other than bodily Life After Life After Death your intermediate state would be a radical Innovations innovation in it and he says it would Stretch the usage beyond the breaking point I've got the page number in Resurrection of the Son of God if you want me to give it to you I am going to have a chance to respond to this and and then he says Les we be projected into premillennial literalism which I think he's just saying I don't want to be a PR premillennialist what we have here is

essentially a radical innovation in the use of Resurrection language and I think he's violence back up to verse we have To back up to verse four if I could come Galloping in with some literalism here um that's my job as a post millennialist um the the Beast these people who are beheaded in verse four are beheaded by the Beast the the Beast is a seven-headed um uh Beast the seven heads are Seven Hills all right the seven heads are also seven Kings five five were all right so this the Beast that the head of the

beast that's reigning that this is Talking about is Nero right you start with Julius Augustus yes I would argue that this is a typological use of the world power at the time and that that it's going to be that way that that pattern is going to follow all through church history no I I agree that the pattern follows all through church history but it happens that Nero persecuted the church from 864 to 868 but your view demands that this book be written before ad70 which is a very Difficult case to make in view of the

external evidence it's easier than you think but the point is this if you want to believe that it's easy but we don't have time for it yeah the point the point is that Nero who occupied the the right place on the number of heads of the Beast persecuted the saints of God for 42 months and this from 64 to 68 was 42 months he persecuted the church for 42 months the beheaded in this on your system you're having to press the the Literal 1,000 years but you're not pressing the Beast or the ones beheaded by

theast anything I'm saying that that uh the beast's opposition to Believers and his beheading of them is typical of the way the the wicked world powers um persecute the church whether they behead us or not let's continue let me finish and you can you can you can respond to all the arguments just get the whole paragraph in front of you yeah okay so you've got you've got a You've got these people who are physically killed and then when Christ comes they're brought to physical life that's what the res the first resurrection refers to physical Life

After Life After Death after the intermediate State they reign with Christ for a th years that's the first resurrection verse 6 blessed and holy is is the one who shares in the first resurrection over such the second death has no power but they will be Priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with him for a thousand years and then verse 7 when the thousand years are ended Satan will be released from his prison and then he comes out he deceives the Nations uh they make war on Christ Christ puts down the Rebellion

then the great white Throne is set up so I think you have a sequence here of a resurrection thousand years of bliss reigning with Christ on Earth and then at the end of the Thousand Years Satan Is let out of that that pit and he's loosed from those chains and and so like what we saw in Revelation 9:1 happens again somebody opens the the uh shaft of the bottomless pit lets him go and then he he does this work there's a final Rebellion it's ended and then the great white Throne is set up and then

after the Judgment we enter into the new heavens and the new Earth in Revelation 21-22 and now let me explain why I think that's Wrong my understanding you you use the word with respect to Satan's in incarceration in the abyss totally you're universalizing what John explicitly restricts he says that with regard to Satan's capacity during the Thousand Years to deceive the Nations he is totally restrained and I agree with that but with regard to all of his other activities Revelation 137 it was allowed to make war on the Saints and to conquer them and Authority

was given it over Every tribe and people and language and Nation but you don't believe that Nation let me finish you don't believe that means that Satan can prevent the gospel from going to the Nations and bringing conversions right but I believe Revelation 21 through3 is describing something different than the gospel going to the Nations well then we'd have to go back into Acts 26 we'd go back into Colossians 2 we could go back into other texts but in the let me finish let Me finish please finish thank you order order in the courtroom that's

precisely what what Jesus told what Paul testified when he said that Christ has commissioned me to turn the nations from the darkness of Satan to the light of God's kingdom during the time of this present inner Advent age Satan cannot prevent the gospel from succeeding and bringing Souls globally to faith in Christ he can persecute the church he can blind the minds of of unbelievers Who are recalcitrant in their rejection of Christ in the non-elect he can uh tempt he can swallow up if we give him ground but when it comes to deceiving the nations

with regard to the gospel and to orchestrating This Global Cosmic resistance to the Church of Christ he has prevented thoroughly and totally now let me finish I get because you had all the other statements you made let me finish I agree with that okay secondly good it says he said I Saw The Souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony Jesus of the word of God As I said in Revelation 6 those are identified as those in the intermediate State it's also interesting that in Revelation 2:11 Jesus says to the church at Smyrna

be faithful unto death he's talking about their martyrdom under the authority of the Beast and I will give you the Crown of Life you're going to die physically you're going to come to life and the second death will have no Power over you precisely what we are told here they are martyred physically they come to life in the in the intermediate State and the second death has no authority over them now one more thing real quickly you said you appealed to anastasis and the concept of resurrection and you said everywhere it refers to physical bodily

Resurrection I agree with you I'll go on record saying that's the single strongest argument for premillennialism but it's not persuasive For this reason you're making a case that um we have to take the word anastasis in the way it is used consistently outside the Book of Revelation by the way this is the only place it's used in Revelation only here nowhere else why do you premillennialists conveniently ignore the word Thrones which is used 47 times in Revelation 40 of which are relevant sometimes it refers to the throne of Satan or the Throne of the Beast

every Single time without exception Thrones are Heavenly they are never on the earth that's also the case with every single use of Thrones outside the Book of Revelation then finally on the issue of the first resurrection I admit I I concede you Jim obviously I mean it's easy to prove n right was correct anastasis use refers to physical Resurrection outside the Book of Revelation this is its only occurrence inside the Book of Revelation but notice If you would this is the only place in the entire New Testament where it's called the first resurrection and it's

Contra and we have here in Revelation 20 21 we have descriptions of what is first and old pertaining to the present transient order of things and then we also have reference especially when we come to chapter 21 to that which is second and new which is a reference to the Eternal permanent consumate state of things so I think it's clear as you read The sequentially through this chap this passage he's not describing a resurrection that is Then followed by the same kind of Resurrection a first and a second he's contrasting the resurrections in the same

way that he contrasts the First with the new and the old with that which is second and so the point is there is a first resurrection that is a coming to life in the intermediate State it's called first the only place where It is indicating we're dealing with something very unique here the millennial Reign transpires throughout the whole course of this present age Saints are reigning with Christ in the intermediate State he identifies them who they are at the second coming of Christ the rest of the Dead are raised that's a physical resurrection of unbelievers

at which time they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire as Matthew indicates as Revelation indicates as well can I reply sure okay your view demands what's happening in Revelation 13 5-8 is precisely that the Beast is deceiving the Nations and verse 7 of Revelation 13 says that Authority was given to the Beast over every tribe and people and language and Nation so your view demands with regard to what Define that they're worshiping the Beast they're they're worshipping because of this F nobody coming to faith in Christ in the present Age no that's

not what I'm saying I'm saying no okay I'm saying that uh what Revelation 21 through3 says isn't happening is happening in Revelation 135 through 7 he is deceiving the Nations that that's that's one thing I want to say and then I want to respond to something that dou Doug said earlier and that you kind of hinted at or are hinting at when you talk about this one passage and and this one reference to The Thousand Years and I just want to ask some questions so how many texts in the Old Testament explicitly name the New

Covenant there's one Jeremiah 31 it's the only place where that phrase is used I think how many texts in the Old Testament explicitly refer to the Future Royal uh ruler as a messiah there's one that's Undisputed Daniel 925 how many texts in the Old Testament say that the seed of the woman is going to crush the Head of the serpent there's one Genesis 3:15 and and I think I would want to ask Doug how many texts in the whole Bible say we should baptize babies um and and or give them communion don't don't respond to

that yeah so does everyone see my restraint so I don't I don't think that the fact that this one passage is is problematic for us oh I don't have I have I agree totally with everything you just said the fact that this is one passage that talks up I'm Happy with it I think it's talking about the intermediate state so I have no problem in saying there's one passage that's describing a thousand years I I believe that but what real quickly here one more thing I I do have a question as well you say that

here in beginning Revelation 20: 1-3 at the second coming of Christ after Christ's returned the devil um can no longer deceive the Nations and he's in the abyss so that won't happen I just want to know where The heck these nations came from because according to your reading of Revelation 19 the Flesh of Kings captains Mighty Men horses Riders flesh of all men both free and slave small and great are consumed and they are thrown the the Beast of false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire and the rest the rest of who the

rest of the Nations who were gathered in this battle were slain By The Sword the Nations that you say Satan is now having to be incarcerated so that He can't deceive have all been killed at the time of the second coming of Christ there are no Nations left that he can deceive and I would say evidently it's not comprehensive and and I would also observe why not just take the the plain literal meaning and say also observe that at the end of Revelation 19 the Beast and the false prophet thanks for reminding me of this

are thrown into the Lake of Fire that's in verse 20 of Revelation 19 and then down in Revelation 20:1 the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulfur where the Beast and the false prophet were already and so it seems like there's one defeat and then there's this inter intervening period and then there's a defeat of the dragon and he's thrown in where the Beast and let me explain why that can't be the case because what we have in race between Revelation 19 and 20 are parallel accounts of the

same span of Time namely the church age or the millennial Kingdom and the fact of the matter is you'll notice in there in Revelation 20110 the devil who had to see them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulfur where literally this is what it says and literally where also the Beast and the false prophet nothing and it makes far better sense to supply not where the Beast and the false prophet are but where the Beast and the False prophet were thrown directly taken from Revelation 19 uh verse 20 making my case no the

point is revelation 19 describes the the end of human history What's called the battle of Armageddon the Beast and the false prophet are thrown into Lake of Fire Revelation 20 recapitulates to describe the whole present age again the consummation of which is Satan is now thrown into the Lake of Fire where the Beast and the false prophet also were thrown and I Think that takes different symbols and flattens them out so that they flatten them out it's recapit it's parallelism and the Ellipsis here that does not supply a verb is far better supplied from 1920

than it is just saying where they are like one other tag one other thing on this and this is from within the text that you went through when you're done I'm going to do some summing all right good um in in Revelation 20 I believe Jim you're the difficulty that I Have with what you're saying is that you have a very specific binding of Satan a very specific Thousand Years John has that but John's got some other stuff coming up too um a very specific Satan a very specific thousand years it's a historical period the

histor historicity of it is being affirmed at a very specific point in time but then in order to populate this very specific Millennium you appeal to a Gen generic Martyrs martyred by a generic Beast throughout all well we read about it in Revelation 13 the well the the the Beast that we have in Revelation this goes back to what I said at the beginning of the book these things are soon to happen it's right on top of you it's at the door um Daniel is told um Daniel is told for example to seal up the

words of the prophecy because the time is not yet and the events were um uh the events were 400 Years okay so if these are the people martyred under Nero well the point is that Revelation in Revelation he's told don't seal the words because that it's right on top of us don't seal the words because it's right on top of us and yet here we are 2,000 years out Daniel is told to seal the words of the prophecy because it's it's a while yet and that's just and the Fulfillment of that was 400 years later

I take the The Book of Revelation as Right on top of the first century church it's at hand it's near it's now and it was it was immediate Nero the Beast the persecuting Beast all of this was alive um at for the recipients of the letter so when John says here the number of the Beast is this and he says this is for the guy who has wisdom John knows who it is right John knows who who it is and he expects some sharp sophomore in college to be up late that night figuring it out

okay let him who has wisdom figure this Out John knows who it is he expects some of his first century readers to figure it out and I can't imagine Demetrius in Ephesus figuring it out saying who the heck is Henry Kissinger right nobody's arguing that right I can I can see someone in the first century saying Nero this the number of the Beast is 666 Nero Beast persecuting I believe that the Beast and the martyrs are very specific in history and you've got a very specific Millennium at the end of history but you have to

make the martyrs and the behead in the process that populates the Saints for that generic and I think that you should do one thing or the other through the text and and I would disagree with what you're saying I'm doing but I and I just I'm want to make one more comment and I just and I'm going to leave it there and I love Jim too but when I read Revelation 19 and and and the birds of the of the Heavens are said come gather for the great supper of God this is 19 ver 18

to eat the Flesh of Kings flesh of captains flesh of Mighty Men flesh of horses and their riters and the Flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great and then it says the Beast and the false prophet are are killed um and who had done the signs Sons by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image you'd think wow that's just about Everybody isn't it and if that's not enough verse 21 and the rest were slain by the sword that came from

the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse Jesus at his second coming so I'm saying if you can extract out of that kind of rather extensive exhaustive Slaughter of all unbelievers at the second coming of Christ this Remnant who survived to enter into the Millennium because you got to have them to propagate to constitute the Nations and So on I I I I don't have any I have nothing more to say I don't know what I could say to that I don't know how I don't know how you I don't know how you

have Satan deceiving Nations that all just got slaughtered they they don't exist they're killed by the second coming of Christ and you can't conceive of any way unbelievers could you read Revelation 19 if you can conceive of it you convince me and then I'll Repent what about babies we baptized [Laughter] him I think I think Sam we could we could just say the the rest of those who were present at that moment the rest who were there when this happened on the globe on the earth who were that's the way you're reading it but you

that's the way I'm reading it so I just say and I would say Jim I agree if you can read it differently and in good Conscience say that there are therefore Nations left over of unbelievers and natural unglorified bodies that enter this purported Millennial Kingdom right then I just say God bless you and so you you said that the biggest problem for amillennialism is the meaning of anastasis in ver six is it it's consist would you say that getting natural bodies and unbelievers into the Millennium is the biggest problem for premillennialism probably so yes what's

The biggest problem for postmillennialism baptizing babies no I'm sorry I would say I alluded to the biggest I think the biggest problem for post millennialist is grabbing to soon is triumph uh an no I don't mean the problem if you believe it what to do it I mean whether true or not Tex the the the actually the biggest problem I have is um is in harmonizing first and 2 Thessalonians okay um that would be go There but so first Thessalonians 4:13 you take to be the second coming of yes correct but but I also take

the man of the man of sin the man of lawlessness as a Roman uh as the Roman Emperor and I and I and I don't I don't have a way of and he's already Arisen and the Rebellion has already happened well like I said there's a problem that's your problem yeah no actually it's not but okay okay coot that's for another night I think Would be helpful to take a few minutes even though our time is up and and go back where we started and ask about the Practical implications of these three views you you

were all very animated more than I expected you to be I I thought this was uh uh I didn't think you expect to feel the strongly but as you do so um that's energizing to me I love it that's why I like you guys a lot because you care about the Bible and care about truth Even even this one so now here's here's the issue you said let's start here and then take maybe five minutes on this our marching orders from Matthew 28 19-20 he has all authority in heaven and on Earth right now whatever

Satan whatever Freedom he has he has Jesus has all authority he says Go Make Disciples of all the nations um how do your views just say something positive about why we can work together with these views and why the Other view if you think this doesn't undermine doing what we're called to do my give my first when I read postmillennialism I fret over over the first problem you said namely that it will become um Dominion theonomy uh take over with carnal means right you refresh Me by insisting it will be spiritual means it will be

worship and the right worshiping of God and when I read your strategies for Conquering the world they feel just Like mine right even though I don't expect the world to be conquered in the same way you do so that my pattern of life and Ministry uh doesn't pick up the sword and you're not picking up the sword it's unclear to me like we talked in the panel about when the Christian Congress might pick up the sword but that's not where you are and you don't want to think that way it sounds to me right so

that would be one example of what I'm fishing for is that I hear his Strategies in um the triumphant spread of the Gospel being exercised in ways very much like the way I live my life what more like that can we say how how did pre and a I want to make what you said more explicit that I that it's very comforting that you say we conquer the same way Jesus did in a death and Resurrection kind of conquering so I appreciate that very much and uh you and I have agreed a lot tonight and

and um And we I think we've agreed on a lot of interpretive matters and um and and I think that we would both say that um The Gospel is going to advance and God is going to prosper the preaching of the Gospel I think we would all say that and so I think we can all affirm those things yeah I I think in terms of and I'm not trying to align up against Doug here but it just just in terms of how it affects um our expectations for the future and how the church lives out

its Life that Jim and I would probably be in more agreement we're going to suff until the end yeah that suffering I think suffering is actually going to increase intensify and spread and I think the way the church conquers is revelation 12 they yeah 1211 they conquered Satan the enemy the Beast by the word of their testimony the blood of the Lamb the word of their testimony by not loving their lives to death they died physically and by dying physically under the oppressive Power of Satan and the Beast they win that's the victory that is

secured by the church in this age and I think Jim and I would agree that there is going to be this increase of of Oppression and persecution of the church um that uh is not going to Abate until the second coming of Jesus and I think Doug would say he believes he has confidence that through the power of the Holy Spirit the spread of the Gospel there will be a slow and Progressive but yet decisive And at some point visible manifestation of a more widespread victory that can be more cultural governmental political economic in nature

I would say I don't see that in scripture he does and I know the verses he uses in the Old Testament primarily in the Psalms right they're tough to answer he's he's he's got a good point I wish you got a millennium yeah but I wish he had had time to defend those text tomorrow and in the coming year we will all be we four will All be preaching the gospel in public sending missionaries to the Nations saying Hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come and meaning a a little bit different same thing at the

center and then brought it out differently and we will be willing to lay down our lives that people might see the Supreme Glory of Jesus Christ the only way they can come to know him is I mean come to be saved is by believing in him the Nations need to hear the gospel all that's true Is that correct amen yes give a closing minute exhortation to the Watchers of this about where to go from here because some people are going to say I just give up I just give up these guys are so smart and

they've got doctorates and they're they cannot agree on the interpretation of the first six verses of Revelation 20 so say something by way of guidance to the frustrated Layman right now who would like to have some sense of what's coming at him and he Doesn't feel like he's nearly as competent that you guys you guys are just a minute or two each as we close about something encouraging and helpful for the Watchers youve exalted Above All Things oh lord your name and your word so I would say just keep reading the Bible worshipfully keep uh

asking the Lord to give you insight into the texts and if there seems to be a meaning that is natural and it seems to fit the terms of The book believe it so just keep reading the Bible for yourself and and if you've got if you've got the Bible you have an archimedian point on which to stand and lever and a place to Lodge that thing and you can move scholarly opinions in your own ability to arbitrate them if you've got your arms around texts I would say keep the gospel Central always keep the gospel

Central the death burial resurrection of Christ Our imitation of him and following That as we interpret scripture As We Lay Down our lives for others as we preach the gospel keep the gospel always and everywhere Central and know that that uh this all of this that these disagreements the fact that the church for 2,000 years has has only come to one Central eschatological agreement and that's Jesus Christ will come again to judge the quick and the dead that's that's as far as the church has gotten that the the the church broadly has Gotten that far

and when we look at the world and how the gospel is progressing through the world and I look at South America and Africa being overrun by premillennialists I think it's the coolest thing in the world that's that's just the kind of thing that God would do right have people believe the Bible Hallelujah well yeah so if if we say look what what's happened the church I think is well established far far more deeply rooted and established in the World today than it was 1500 years ago 2,000 years ago and the vast majority of the sacrifices

and the um the the missionary efforts and the martyrdoms the vast majority of people who did that did it through love of the same Jesus but with a different eschatology than mine and so you know good good grief keep keep a sense of proportion keep the um keep the gospel Central and keep a sense of proportion and let every man be fully Convinced in his own mind well certainly I'd Echo both of those I I don't think I can add anything to them um I would would simply say to people who are watching this who

probably some of them are tempted to say as you said John goodness I I'll never understand that and and if that's what studying the Bible does I'm just I'm going to avoid it and I would say please don't do that um what we did tonight you might not turn out like us what what we Did tonight was really good this is healthy i m now I'm really I'm I'm I'm a sick sort of guy I love this you know I know some people some other people out here were very nervous and they were sitting on

edge and they think Jim and I don't love each other and um I I love this because he's refining my thinking Doug's refining my thinking I might go back and look again and I hope I've given them some thoughts as well I and I think I think God is honored when we Take this book seriously enough to do this that we care about truth we believe that there is objective real truth here about what God is doing in history and he says wow those those they they care enough about my word they believe it is

inherent and infallible enough that they're that they're willing to go toe-to-toe with each other in the love of Christ to try to arrive at some understanding if in the final analysis Jim's right that won't affect my Relationship with Jesus one bit and I won't be disappointed I'll be saddened that I misled people through my teaching gift if Doug turns out to be right and I'm wrong I won't be dis I kind of hope he's right by the way just you know between us me me [Laughter] too um if he turns out to be right again

my regret will be that I would have used the gift God has given me to mislead people which is a a weighty thing James 3 we all have to take into consideration but in order to become a better teacher I need these guys I need all of you I need the whole body of Christ to to to call me back to the text force me to look at things in a new way so I think that's what I take away from it I think that we will uh not ask you what should people read but

maybe get that information and when this goes onto the web we'll put it up some some readings in prepost ah for people who Want to follow on thank you thank you all so much for your willingness to thank you do this the risk of posting this let's pray and go Father in heaven we are deeply thankful for the Bible we're sorry if if we're if we're knuckleheaded about its plain meaning I'm sure I am in numerous places and we ask for light if any sin is an obstacle to any of us seeing what's really there

grant that that sin would be conquered Humble us under your Mighty word and help us to maintain a sense of proportion we are thrilled that you Lord Jesus are coming that you will conquer one day all evil that you will set all things right that you will banish all ungodliness and unrighteousness out of the universe and you will grant that righteousness and peace will reign forever and ever and we will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of our father we say hasten the day oh Christ and to that End Keep Us Faithful I pray

through Christ amen amen amen amen