DAVID IRVING | TALKING FRANKLY

My name is David Irving you've probably read my books that's probably why you've got this uh recording I'm going to talk about my life and times and where I come from the reason I'm making this recording is because way ahead now I'm at an age when you can begin to see the stop lights ahead some they're beginning to turn Amber and you don't know when they're going to turn red I've got about three books left to write I've got the Third volume of my Church biography I've got a himla biography I'm working on which taken

10 years already with some interruptions so I'm going to talk about and I've got my own personal autobiography so what you're hearing now is something of my own personal autobiography where I come from who I am what I believe and the books I've written and the methods that have been used by the people I call the traditional enemies of free speech the People who try to stop me from researching from writing from publishing what I find to be true and then from Distributing the books that I've published it's been an interesting fight and believe me

it's still going on I was born the last son of a royal Navy Commander he was a man who fought in the Battle of Jutland in 1916 as ensen aboard a British Battleship and then in World War II he fought again finally being invalided out In 1942 after making several runs with the Royal Navy escorting the Arctic convoys from Iceland to North Russia he was a great man he was a wonderful writer too and I suppose perhaps something of his writing ability has percolated through into my veins as well he wrote a book on the

Battle of Jutland he wrote another book on the first battle of the faland ises and of coronell he wrote U the official history Of the royal yacht the king's brania as his book is called and finally the very last book he ever wrote was a book book on the Battle of Jutland which he and I wrote together because he was by that time A Very Old Man I he was very old but my brother told me a few few weeks ago he said you know David daddy died and he's younger at a time when he

was younger than either of us are now that's something you don't really want to be told but it's a it's a salitary warning That you've only got a limited SP span of Life on this Mortal coil and you got to put it to the best use you can unfortunately my writing career has been interrupted interrupted once or twice was interrupted twice by prison in 1995 a German publisher had me sent to prison for two weeks for contempt of court in England in Pentonville a famous prison where they used to hang people they hang Dr krippin

in Pentonville prison and uh in 2005 I was ambushed in Austria when I went to lecture to University students and I was put on trial in in Austria under a law introduced by the Starland government in 1945 a law called the Banning law nothing to do with the Holocaust as it's called it was the the Banning law and under the Banning law I was accused of having written or said things that might have been more favorable to the Nazi government than were deemed was deemed politically correct I was put on Trial in February 2006 and

sentenced to 3 years in prison and I began serving that prison sentence in the oldest prison in Austria in Vienna and I stayed there for 400 Days in solitary confinement in a room about 6 ft Square imagine sitting at a room 6 feet square probably the smallest room in your house and I sat looking at those walls for the next 400 Days very little exercise until finally the Austrian Court of Appeal addressed by a very brave Austrian Lawyer who himself had been repeatedly prosecuted and threatened for defending people who believed in free speech like me

the aing court of appeal ordered my immediate release but even then they held me in prison for another day a different prison a police prison while the same judge tried to get a new charge up and running against me on the account that I had uh spoken to the BBC I made an interview with the BBC from that prison Block in Vienna in 2006 the BBC Had given me a phone number to phone and I saw that phone standing there in the prison Wing I picked up the pH and I spoke for 10 minutes to

the BBC and the BBC broadcast that interview with me a prisoner in Vienna over the BBC networks around the world all day long and on account of that a new charge was leveled Against Me by the judge under Section 3H of the Banning law under Section 3H of the Banning law I could have been sentenced to 20 years in Prison or even life because it was a repeat offense you see some countries believe in free speech and some countries don't I thought we won World War II against ger Germany and Austria too of course but

apparently some of these old problems are creeping back in anyway all that is water under the bridge I came out of prison on December the 21st 2006 I went say I was a broken man but I had great difficulty standing I had Great difficulty walking down the street I couldn't step up onto the sidewalk because that little step was too painful to step my muscles had gone to pot they' all turned to marmalade jelly and here I am a couple years down the road beginning to put my life back together again for 6 months I

lived in hotel rooms tried to piece my life together again all my possessions have been destroyed or lost and I am back in this house here not far from the castle where The queen lives in Windsor lovely Old English country house surrounded by a beautiful country garden and I began writing again I look back over my writing career my writing career began back in the 1960s I left England University I've been to an English Public School in public school I was an active young scholar in fact there's a short strip of film showing me berating

The crowd of students in the public school brenwood school a piece of 60 mm film taken by one of our school teachers and um I managed to find that recently I left public school and went to University in London and I for three years I tried to get a degree not easy because I came from a very poor background my father no longer lived with us my mother was an artist she Illustrated the radio times and other magazines and you can't bring up four Children on that kind of payment and when you get to University

you find that some students are much better off than you are I tried for three years to get a degree in physics I changed over eventually to learning politics and economics at University College between that time I went to Germany to work as a steel worker it's a strange choice you may I think but having been deferred from uh national service uh I decided to volunteer for The Royal for the Royal Air Force like my brother rather than do two years national service now I was out University I decided to volunteer at the royal royal

Air Force to do a three-year short service course commission flight leftenant Cambridge University studying Russian the idea was to get absolutely fluent in Russian I've got no idea what use they would have made of me I can suspect what that what I would have Found myself doing eventually but having volunteered for the Air Force I was turned down I got no idea why I can again suspect why I was turned down because i' had been politically active at London University on the right wing and these things happen but the good news was that I now

no longer had to serve either three years or two years and I decided to go and be a steel worker in Germany instead I applied the crops the great big giant steel firm who Had turned out the tanks in World War II and uh crops turned me down they sent back a rather snotty letter saying Dear Mr Irving in view of the fact that the Allies destroyed our steel works and dismantled everything we had we don't have a job for you so I I applied then to crs's Rivals the great big ton steel concern Fritz

ton who was one of the people who actually bankr Hitler in the 1930s and ton accepted me as an un unlearned and in and unskilled steel Worker and I worked on the steel work on the on the furnace stage for many months in the RAR the lonliest period of my life in fact you can't speak the language properly you you lose confidence when you're on a foreign country and you don't speak the language properly I had advanced level German eventually I think I had 13 advanced level subjects and 17 o Lev subjects so I had

a what you might consider to be a very wide but shallow Knowledge I knew a lot I knew a little about a lot of subjects rather than a lot about a little which is the way usually come out of University break for a moment okay when I was at that steel works the fix rhin Ro steel Works in MIM in the r which had been rebuilt after the war I I lived in um a bachelor home with I think about 12 other steel workers and we shared the beds I think there were four beds there

and we were on a Around the Clock shift the first time I'd ever worked on a shift plan I never work on a shift plan again I never wanted to have to be woken by an alarm clock again as one of the resolutions I made but one of the men who who shared that room with me he came from leig an old man and he he saw me one day reading a magazine about the world war and the magazine had a series called the lights went out over Europe and it was about the bombing and

there was a story there About an air raid on Germany in 1945 that had killed 100,000 people in one night a British Air Raid and I knew nothing about this he said I was there David I was in that City it was Dresden and my blood runs cold even now when I think about this 100,000 people being burned alive in one night I'd written an article for the Daily Telegraph which they published a few weeks earlier and I Thought I'm going to write an article about this one too and I sat down and I began

researching by writing letters to people and learning everything I could from that man from other people what had happened that night in dresdon when I left the steel works I I began to write and I realized this wasn't just an article this was a book and I began advertising in the German newspapers and in in the times in England for people had been in That raid either in the air or on the ground I advertised in American newspapers and American Airman had taken part in the raid in Dres the following midday and eventually I filled

a file with about 600 letters from people who had written to me I went all around Germany I did television programs I was a bit of a um shall we say a bit of a freak this was an Englishman who was going to write about the bombing war in Germany the subject was taboo nobody Talked about it they weren't allowed to talk about it so here was an Englishman who was breaking the tou and people sent letters to the TV stations how could they tell me what they knew they had been there too that day

and Dresden so I built up this fantastic file of letters from people who had been there or had been in the air on eventually I went and spoke to Marshal of the royal air force bomber Harris a great man great Commander I Know people don't like him I know people call him a war criminal but you got to admit that a man who is capable of sending 30,000 of his 50,000 Airman to their death which they did unflinchingly must be a great Commander I think he deserves that statue that he now has outsides and Brides

Church in in flee Street Obama Harris told me that he hadn't wanted to carry out the air raid either but he hadd been ordered to as a Political decision by Churchill himself I remember interviewing him back in April 1962 a great man and I I interviewed his Deputy as well sworn to be and the book that was finally published became a bestseller actually is play when that advert of mine appeared in the Times personal column British authors seeking people who were in the air raid I received a letter not just from the am and all

the survivors but from a Publisher William Kimber Kimber said David if you're looking for a publisher I will publish the book for you I've always felt very strongly about that particular crime and so suddenly I'd crossed the first threshold which I didn't know but turns out to be the worst the most difficult threshold for any author finding a publisher he had approached me he came to me he he was my publisher for the next three or four books what we call an English gentleman publisher a lovely man when he died the telegraph asked me to

write the obituary for him which I which I did half his obituary he was such a gentleman he never told me that authors get advances he was that kind of a gentleman and I don't suppose I really begrudged it he he published the book it was a huge bestseller the Sunday Telegraph serialized it the editor of the Sunday Telegraph which would had just begun its Life as a Sunday paper 1963 the edit was Donald mclan who had been in Naval intelligence in the famous submarine tracking room during World War II he knew what he was

talking about and he took a personal interest in me he published my next three books of serials in the Sunday Telegraph you wouldn't believe that now of course if you read what the England newspapers write about me um my articles have been published in some of the world's leading newspapers And in England the Sunday Express the Sunday Telegraph H times and other newspapers all published series of articles by David Irving but now of course I am hated and despised because I am what they call a holocaust denier and I'm going to come to that later

on in this talk I'm not but this is what they they call me now that's not what they called me then at that time I was an on gate I was a chosen child as they would say and I money was showered on me I Found an American agent Max Becker who became I suppose my principal source of income for the next 20 years he died in 1992 and with with his death this was the first first not nail in my coffin but it was a hammer blow to me Max Becker he contacted me and

he said David I I didn't want an agent I have to say I thought why should I give an agent 10% for doing nothing I'm writing the book and he's just going to sell the book for me why should he get 10% some of them May get 15% uh he telephone me a few days after I hired him and he said David the American Publishing House little brown they're going to buy your book on field Marshal milch Herman ging's deputy and they've offered $30,000 for it that was in 1967 now $30,000 in even today it's

a big sum of money but in 1967 it was a Bonanza and I remember encouraged by that I turned to my wife we had had four Children by then and I said we're going to move out of Paddington and she said where are we going to move to I said we have a choice either we can move out into the country and get a country house to live in or we can move into the center and she looked for a while couldn't find somewhere to live and I said I can find somewh in two hours

I guarantee I drove down uh to gler Road went into a the state agents Mara and Mara and they looked up and they said Well terribly sorry you know but you're looking for a six- room apartment very difficult to find six room Apartments now they're too big nobody wants them oh there is an an eight room apartment in Mayfair but nobody wants that it's just off groer square and I said how much will it be and they said well ,000 a year I thought £1,000 a year I can't possibly afford that but we'll do it

so within two hours I'd found this apartment in groa square in Duke Street Just between groa square and sues it was an eight room apartment on the first floor what the Americans would call the second floor and I lived there for the next 38 years I bought the apartment eventually everything I owned was seized in the year 2002 let me just say that straight away by then it was worth over a million pounds but it was all taken away from me along with all my possessions everything my archives my library my papers everything I owned

was Seized in 2002 but for 38 years I lived in that apartment very happily raised the family so and go to school saw them getting married saw them off wrote the books which I'm going to be talking about now okay rest yeah when I was writing the book on Dresden I went behind the Iron Curtain two or three times in those days Dresden was in the Soviet zone of Germany I wanted to speak to the people there and I was treated as something of a celebrity because they'd never seen this before somebody writing the history

of their own tragedy every year in Dron they had an annual ceremony of people coming from all over the city carrying candles and placing them on the ruins of the cathedral in the center of the city and I found a man there called Fritz Han Fritz Han had been a photographer during World War II he was one of those professional photographers dedicated Photographer we all know people like that absolutely dedicated ated to their career of taking photographs and he had recorded The Life and Times of the city of dresdon and on February the 25th 10

days 12 days after the AR on Dron he got permission to go into the city center to go through the police cordons and take photographs of what he saw the photographs were so horrific they were the most horrific photographs I'd ever seen there had been so many people killed in the air raade on Dron there there weren't enough people left alive to bury them so they were cremated on huge funeral PES in the cent in the in the the city Square in the center of the city piled up 500 or a thousand at a time

and set on fire horrible photographs of these people a lot of children wearing Mardy gr costumes because the air raid had taken place on on February the 14th the night of February the 13th and 14th and the children were wearing their costumes for for shro Tuesday horrible photographs he had taken these photographs with the permission of the local Nazi party officers and they made my book in fact he gave me several color photographs too which he took the color transparencies and I wasn't able to publish them for 20 or 30 years because in those days

Publishers Were very mean and they'd look at these color photographs and say well yes it's a great photograph but it's going to cost an extra 10 cents on our production price so we going have to go without if they print them in color I showed the photographs to Wing Commander Morris Smith Morris Smith at that time was the editor of flight International magazine and flying a single mosquito bomber plane a twin engineed wooden mosquito plane he had flown around that City at Midnight for one hour round and round and round as the master bomber like

the master ceremonies in the circus broadcasting radio directions to the oncoming bomber stream to ignore that yellow flare ignore the red flare go just for the green flare that was the Target Center and broadcasting the stream of instructions he gave me the actual transcript of his radio broadcast that night to oncoming bombers the the bomber force was called the plate rack Force which was I suppose a witty aspersion on dresden's famous reputation as a production of fine porcelain and I showed him the photographs of what was happening on the ground and I've got to say

that win Commander marus Smith was a fine gentleman typical Royal Air Force officer dedicated and professional and he went pink and then he went white when he saw these awful photographs that I showed Him it was an interesting thing many years later I realized as an author you're dealing with real events you're dealing with things that really happened you're dealing with human beings I was reminded of this after I written a book called the destruction of Convoy P 17 it was my second or third book about a horrible Arctic Convoy disaster in 1942 38 ships

had sailed British and American the Royal Navy escort had been withdrawn under a misapprehension of the Admiralty he had decoded a signal wrong or drawn the wrong conclusions from it so the raw Navy escort effectively ran away and left the Convoy to its own fate each merchant ship has gone its own way two-thirds of them had been sunk by bombers or submarines and I wrote this history I found the bomber commanders I found the ubot commanders and Crews I found the survivors of the ships it was a wonderful Story Each ship had its own fate

it was it was effectively a chapter For itself and about 20 years later I got a letter from an old lady written on basil and basilon Bond blue paper and I would never forget the opening words she said Dear Mr Irving I bought a copy of your book the destruction of Convoy pq17 on my local railway station here in Worthing in Sussex and for the first time I have read how my husband died now imagine that you're an author And you've written a book like that and I thought that the her name was familiar but

suddenly you are reminded that you have written about somebody who really existed in in a sense of numb horror I picked the book off the bookshelf and I turned to that page to see what i' had written about her husband there were three or four pages it was board a ship called the SS hartlebury 37 men had died aboard that ship when it Was torpedoed by a submarine and her husband had been the radio operator and there are three or four pages describing his end fortunately I i' written it very accurately and I given him

a worthy epito so to speak but it was a salutary reminder when you do write history that you're writing about real people and that even goes for somebody like Adolf Hitler at that time my publisher William Kimber said after the destruction of Dresden after that was the best seller he said David what are you going to write next and I said I'm going to write a book about adol Hitler using the same methods I'm going to advertise the people who knew him people who were with him his staff his secretaries his Colonels the agitant the

people who knew him personally manto man and that the same as I did with the resident book so you you you bypass all the existing history about him and you find out what Actually happened it became what I I now call Real History capital r capital H real history Churchill once said the job of a historian is to find out what happened and why well a real historian who writes Real History his job is to find out what really happened and that's what I tried to do so I eventually I tracked down a lot of

people who had been without ofler and you got to remember I had an advantage Over people like Ian Kershaw or even huge hopa I'd written that book about Dresden I remember what happened i' translated the Memoirs of field Marshall kitle who was hanged at nurenberg as chief of the German High command decent old buffer of a German soldier who hadn't very thought very much about the orders he was signing but I tracked down his son because when I translated the Memoirs I found out that The German Publishers left out large chunks and my English publisher

William Kimber said David can we find out what's been left out do you think so I tracked down the sun and the son greeted me with open arms and he said thank goodness yes the German publisher cut out all the bits that were Politically Incorrect for example the Battle of Britain because the British are our friends now was absurd so I put all this stuff back in the kitle book The English edition of The kitle Memoirs the American Edition too is very different from the German Edition in this respect is the complete story and the

son was so pleased that i' had gone the extra mile leftenant Colonel kitle he was his father was the field Marshal the son opened the cupboard door put his hand up inside a cupboard door and brought down from inside this fabulous long field Marshall's battern which it belonged to his father he said we hide it there in Case the police take it from us and he showed it to me and he did me one another faor he said do you want to me OT Guna and I saidwell yes is he still alive he saides he

lives just down the road from here this is back in the 1960s Otto Guna was the man who burned Hitler's body he was an SS Colonel on Hitler's private staff for the last 10 years of his life until literally the very last minute of his Life and Guna opened the door and liutenant Colonel kle said Otto here is David Irving this is the Englishman who wrote the book about Dresden and that unlocked the door it unlocked the door to all Adit star I was the Englishman who had written the book about Dresden and therefore I

was probably fair and I was going to write an honest history and eventually I was passed around the whole of the Inner Circle the ad fitler Circle and I was able to speak To all the people who had not spoken to anybody else before so when Ian Kershaw and the rest right in their interviews I decided not they decided not to interview Hitler's staff for whatever reason Ian Kershaw said I would only have heard trit remarks from them the the correct explanation is they wouldn't have spoken him anyway because he didn't have the right credentials

which I did and I noticed one very interesting thing about these people they were educated They were academic they were Ordinary Decent citizens for the most part and they all in private spoke glowingly of the chief and this was a big shock to me I thought hey hello uh I was brought up in World War II and born in 1938 brought up in World War II he was the devil Inc it he was the man with a little postman's hat and the toothbr mustache to whom we had everything to owe because of Adolf Hitler because

of that man I had no toys Because of that man we had no butter because of that man we had to turn off the lights everywhere we went in the house to save electricity ad fitler was to blame for everything and of course when the war ended we had the photographs of beg and bson and buhan Val and all the other Nazi atrocities which that man had caused and yet all these educated people are now visiting let's be speaking well of him so I began to realize as my work on that Particular topic progressed and

had lasted for 20 years it's still going on now in fact that there were two Adolf Hitlers there was the Madison Avenue Adolf Hitler the Hollywood Adolf Hitler and there was the man that these people had worked for ah or the chief and I thought this man is worth investigating you know as you go through life you can see the mistakes you make you see the wrong turnings you take like sitting on the back of an open Truck you can see too late where you should have turned off and taken another turning and that was

the mistake I made to decide to write the truth about Adolf Hitler because from that moment on it was it was like um a watershed everything up to that point had been hunky dory i' made the big money the Publishers paid big sums of money uh my books had sold well they'd gone into all the bookstores they were all inevitably bestsellers the Sunday Times had given me the front page ranking every time when it came out my latest book suddenly I was PE a nonata suddenly my name stank looking back on it you can say

well that was a big mistake David because that from that moment on you were no longer in the big money yes but I can live with myself I my way of looking at is to say you have only one life you got one patch of life which is ended by the red lights Up ahead and you got to use that life to the best you can either you can make the big money if that's all you're after or you can write something lasting where your children and the children's children would say yes my father wrote

that book my my youngest daughter now she was at school last term and her school class was set the task of writing an essay on the air raid on Dresden entirely by coincidence very interesting Questions was the air raid on Dresden proportional the question of proportionality which is only very modern Concept in war proportionality whether whether proportionality had been exceeded in n Dr him and of course eventually it came out her father had literally written the book and she's not unproud of that if I can put it like I mean children are never really proud

of their fathers when they're at school but I think she's not unproud of the fact That I I had written the book and it's a book I mean thanks to my book people now talk of aitz hoshima and Dresden all in one breath previously Dresden was unheard of so I spent the next 20 years writing the book on Adolf Hitler I interviewed all his staff I built up an immense card in index bits of it are lying around in this room here in my study 40,000 index cards every document which I found in the archives

was indexed um every Reference to Hitler I decided to I could afford to be choosy I wasn't going to buy books about that man I was going to write it from the documents from the original telegrams the problem is of course that over the years now more and more documents have come into the public domain for example the British over the last 10 years have just released tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of intercepted German messages which are Not in the German archives so you can keep on updating and updating but if you've done your

work conscientiously then you don't have to correct very much it's they who have to correct what they've been writing and they're very reluctant to do so because they're at F is a completely different man omniscient omnipotent cruel and criminal whereas mine is a human walking talking man with breast at the end of the war smelt a man who was suffering From Parkin Parkinson proberbly Alzheimer's too a man who was gradually going down a man who's been quite well portrayed in that recent film called the downfall theang um which is largely based on my book as

it turns out you I confess the author he had my book at his elbow as he wrote the script so this is a problem that the others have but I don't have because if you write history accurately enough from the original records you Don't have to worry about being caught out you may have misread somebody's handwriting when the Great lipat trial occurred in the year 2000 the the defense Council who were defending Deborah lipat the American academic who accused me of being a holocaust denier um her defense Council said Mr Irving has made 19 major

errors well if we look at that what does that mean defense Council in that trial The 2000 trial my liable action against e libad they spent 20 man years going through my books all my books looking for mistakes and they said they had found 19 mistakes so now they say David iring is a liar under a falsifier of History the judge in that trial said 19 of the those 19 mistakes 12 he didn't accept as being mistakes I think it's 12 we left seven seven seven mistakes in 30 books a Lifetime of writing that's that's

less than half a mistake per book it's not bad for a historian I remember a couple of historians at the time the the action end Ed with a disastrous spiteful and wounding 333 page judgment Against Me by the judge Mr Justice gray two historians of Professor Donald watt who is the Doan of the English historians he said I don't think any historians work could stand up to the kind of scrutiny to which it's been Subjected uh in the way that David Irving's work has been subjected and I'm I'm not dismayed I mean as the outcome

of that trial of course everything I had was seized as I mentioned I lost my archives I lost everything I'd worked for every penny I had in the bank was seized the the defense Council the defense team in the de liat cases spent $13 million justifying what she wrote or attempting to justify it and I think There's no British judge who would not be impressed to see $13 million flooding into his courtroom through a 6in pipeline and the courtroom on one side being dominated by this huge team that Deborah lipat had assembled behind her with

her Hollywood friends who put out the money of course she didn't have a penny she was just an academic in in Atlanta a minor academic and this huge team of six professors and all their assistants and all their research Assistants and all the bars and councel and solicitors and solicitors assistants 40 of them every day coming into the high court on one side of the high court and on the other side of the high court myself because I was acting alone a litigant in person you're faced with a choice you know in law people sometimes

say why do you act for yourself why don't you hire a lawyer oh those of you who have ever had to hire a lawyer will know why you don't Hire lawyers if you can possibly avoid it they don't care about you they take your money and run time and time again and you don't hire lawyers in a Lial action because You' got a choice you have in my case you have a you're going to hire a lawyer who knows nothing about history or you've got a historian who knows nothing about the law but at least

at least if you're a historian you can learn enough about the Lord of high education in the high court which is What I did and George Carman the famous British QC he told his son when the lipat trial ended that in if if he had been the judge he would he would have judged in my favor so it was as closely run as that but we're getting away from the subject I wrote after the adol of Hitler book appeared in 1977 probably another 20 books I never counted them I'm a bit superstitious like that uh

I don't think the has come to an end until it comes to An end and then I look back and say well okay you wrote Whatever it is 30 35 I've got an idea I wrote these books mostly about World War II mostly about personalities because of course after a time you you do get into what you can call a rut you built up this huge Archive of of adult fitler documents Nazi documents you built up the expertise you've got the contacts you speak the fluent German you understand the abbreviations and the acronyms and The

language that's being used so you can write the Books increasingly easily I'll give you one example as a byproduct of the Adolf Hitler research I had interviewed every surviving Field Marshal or I'd contacted their wives or widows and i' had obtained all their private papers for example field Marshall roml the legendary desert fox I visited his wife and son Manfred who was the Lord mayor of stutgart at that time uh the wife the Widow had given me Complete access to all the private papers he had written 2 th letters to her the field Marshal roml

and I might say the letters are much more valuable than Diaries I've discovered over the 30 years or 40 Years of my writing career that many Diaries are fake sometimes entirely fake like the Alor Hitler Diaries in 1983 or sometimes partially faked people have gone back and rectified their Diaries even romal did this in 1941 November 1941 he lost the Battle the battle of operation Crusader in the desert and he went back in 1942 and took the page art of his War diary and had it retyped to amend the the wrong the wrong order he

had given but of course he made the mistakes that we all make the beginning of every year when we go into into a bank with a checkbook instead of writing 1941 November 1941 he accidentally wrote November 1942 on that page so you spot the faking okay well this is Human and the point I'm making is that I had all the romal material already which I had collected when writing the Hitler book and now a long cas Max Becker my agent that said David what are you going to write now you finished the hler book and

I said what a book about a book about RL and this is this Stark truth about being an author unfortunately you write big books that are important like the AL of Hitler Biography Hitler's war or Churchill's War The Churchill biography and if you take 20 or 30 years to write a book The Churchill book the contract was signed in 1972 here we are 35 years later and volume 3 is still not been published you're not going to make money from that are you but you have a book like the roml biography which takes eventually six

months to write and it makes a fortune and it's very unjust but It's the way that things are done you use the unimportant books like the romal book to finance the important books by which you'll always be remembered I'm not going to be remembered from my romal biography although it appeared to rave reviews from all the British press remember the times published a review beginning with the words David Irving is accustomed to having his books um excoriated um he won't be happy with what we're going to write about the the Ral book name therefore that

it's a wonderful piece of research the rumble book made so much money in fact that I was able to alter My Lifestyle it came out at the same year as a Hitler biography eventually because the the Hitler book took a lot of editing it came out at the end of 1977 in Germany it came out in 1978 one of the most prestigious German Publishers Hoffman and camper they I know they printed over 70,000 copies in Hardback they sold 70,000 copies in hardback for each book of course my share is about about2 or3 plus all the

paperback deals so in Germany alone from the romal biography I picked up about £150,000 I remember walking to my bank and drawing out 10 15,000 on the bank in a brown paper bag and walking around to Jack Barkley's showroom in mayfer where they sld the Royals roses I mean I can be very shallow And walking into that showroom and saying to the salesman I want to buy a rollsroyce please and he said which one are you looking at they do cost a lot of money sir I supp he looking at my shoes or my suit

and I I say what do you think I'm carrying in the brown paper bag then and I put it on his desk and he said oh oh which one would would would sir like and I said one of those two Silver Shadows in the window he said which one do you want I Said I think I had the brown one in the corner he said oh we call it Coffee Bean Brown sir I'm just giving that as an example of the way language changes at the time I I use that phrase was perfectly inoffensive and

innocuous word but now of course it's become Politically Incorrect it was a color just like burnt sienna but I drove that coffee bean Brown rolls around uh England for the Next 12 years I drove it around large part of Europe too in fact the unusual experience of this car getting more and more valuable as the years went past I bought it at the at the height of the Arab oil crisis when nobody was buying gas guzzlers so I got it quite cheap and I drove it for the next 12 years in fact and I drove

it around inside the Soviet zone of Germany and Hungary and other communist countries in Germany West Germany huge crowds would gather around The rals RO but as soon as he went through Checkpoint Charlie into East Germany um unfortunately nobody knew what it was and it was a matter of great indifference to them so it was a different experience but it was a great pleasure to drive something truly British like the Rolls-Royce I've always been a patriot um I was accused in the lipat trial of course of being a racist that's that's the other word for

Patriot when Richard rampton the Queen's Council for Deborah lipat said you are a racist aren't you and I said well what do you mean by a racist and he said how would you define it I said M Mr ranton I would Define what you call racism as patriotism he said how would you define patriotism I said patriotism is respect for the country that's been handed down to you by your parents and by their parents and what country is that Mr Iring well I can't deny of course that I'd gone through this kind of dialogue in

my mind for months before the trial began so the answer that came wasn't unprepared I said Mr rampton sometimes I I have the dream that I can go to heo airport and board a 747 and fly for 10 hours and land back in England as it was in the 1950s the Press loved that and he wasn't satisfied of course because he doesn't like that kind of answer Mr rampton he Was a good QC and He adjusted his wig and he said and Mr Irving what kind of England would that have been then I know what

he's going for and I said Mr R let me put it like this if the soldiers who stormed the beaches in Normandy in June 1944 Could See England as it is today they wouldn't have gone 40 yards up that beach It's a Wonderful sentence again well prepared it came out absolutely Word Perfect every newspaper quoted it the following day because newspapers are cowardly there are things that they want to say things that they dare not say themselves but things they will willingly qu if somebody else says it and if necessar they can put exclamations at

front and center and they can say how disgusting it is that somebody has dared to say this but they've said it all the same and it became the quote of the week in most of The Sunday papers and in two of the Sunday papers it was the actual quote of the month so they all believed in what I had said but none of them had DED say it themselves that's the quality of English journalism today the problem isn't censorship there is no censorship of newspapers the problem has always been self-censorship a journalist knows what he's

got to write in order to keep his job and the present unfortunately flavor of the month is hit Irving hit him Because that's the way to please the editors because that's the way to please the advertisers and all the free Street newspapers now are heavily dependent on the advertisers and we all know who we're talking about so hit Irving and that'll keep us in our jobs in the long run and I can I can live with that I've never taken a ad vertising I'm not dependent on Advertising I write what I find in the archives

when I came out of that prison in Vienna December the 21st 2006 the following day I was in the BBC in White City and I was being interviewed by John humphres for the today program and he said uh what will you do now are you going to change what you are and I said no I shall continue to write what I find in the archives he said you're going to write what you find in the archives what's that I said the truth real history and he said but no one's Going to believe what you what

you write now because you're David iring you have a criminal record now and I said yes that is the intention of my en enemies that the shallow-minded journalists should describe me as that but let me tell you what's going to happen in future years in a future years people buying books are going to have a choice between books written by David Irving or by Andrew Roberts or by Ian Kershaw or by some other run-of-the historian and They'll say well David Irving has been a prison for what he writes so on balance we're going to believe

what he what he has written rather than what they write I think a 100 years from now my books will be the Bedrock of History which people draw back on when they want to find out what went wrong in the 20th century and about what went wrong in the 20th century I'll talk in a minute Cut okay just for my editing purposes um this is which B do first segment a we're going to do segment a this is about family and the lipat trial okay and this is going to be slotted back in to further

into the that's right that's right okay ready yeah segment a people sometimes ask me why I've not replied to the many books that have been written about the lipad trial uh the trial took place in the year 2000 in January and it lasted until April three months in the high court in England and people say David would you do it again and I'd say in a heartbeat it's a very interesting experience to act as your own litigant in the high to act in person in the high court um if if you've studied the language and

the law enough and if you know the history of course but before I deal with the trial I'm going to go back a bit to deal with my family and you'll only understand why When we come to the end of this first of all after the trial was over it ended in a catastrophic defeat for me um probably no surprise because the defendants in this action Deborah lipat and our Publishers Penguin Books had uh spent about $13 million donated by Hollywood sponsors and I'm not going to bother to name them because I'd want to be

accused of anti-Semitism um Steven Spielberg was one um they spent so much money Defending the action they um I suppose the result was inevitable in the long run and um had very little to do with the actual liel on my name I was accused of being a holocaust t i the implication being that I had known what the truth is and having known what the truth was and having it scattered around me on my desk in my study in in groer square I Mayfair in London I'd deliberately written the opposite um I tried to say

to the judge you got to understand what this court is Occupied with is not what happened 60 years ago in aitz and trinko and the other camps what this court should concern it with is what happened in my study when I was writing the books was I deliberately lying but the court somehow got dragged back into the years of the Holocaust and I suppose that was inevitable der lipat after the trial was over went on speaking tours around the world and she's still doing it now seven or or eight years later a dog and pony

Show is going around city after City and Country after country in which she um acts the part of the Dragon Slayer how she slew David Irving hisor and destroyed my career and reputation and all the rest of it I don't think she has one very interesting remark she made however was when she was speaking in in Israel to an audience there she said we did all we could to destabilize David Irving before the trial began well you can recognize that if you Ever come up into my archive room have a look at the boxes of

papers you will see that in the final 10 days before the tri began uh literally in the final 10 days they dumped huge quantities of paper on me uh ring binders full of thousands of pages of documents that I was supposed to read before the to began of course I had no hope no hope of reading these documents um a month before the trial began they actually changed their entire defense They threw out the defense they had originally served 5 years earlier and replaced it with this new defense we basically centered on on smearing my

name um and then instead of I suppose I should have gone to the judge at that point this was a mistake I made I should have gone to the judge Mr Justice gray and say either we have to delay the trial Now by six months to give me time to read all these new documents or you as judge in charge of this courtroom Have to tell the defendants they've had their chance and they're not permitted to change their defense just one month before the trial begins this is one of the mistakes I made you make

mistakes when you're a litigant litigant in person I didn't realize you could do that kind of thing but remember what she said we did all we could to destabilize him so let me just come back to describe my family there's a reason for this by the time the trial Began I had had four beautiful daughters and now have five daughters my daughters were born to my wife who was born to a a noble family in Spain and um they're scattered around the world now two of them in in Madrid and one lives in Australia and

the fourth the oldest child Josephine our darling Josephine was dead she was born in 1963 she was born in the same month that my Dron book appeared she was born on April the 1st 1963 and my book the Destruction of Dron appeared on the last day of that month we called her Josephine Victoria because April the 1st is not April Fool's Day in Spain it's the Day of Victory the day of celebrating General Franco's victory over the Communists so we called her General we called her Josephine Victoria now she was dead at the age of

about 18 it turned out that she had an incurable disease it was a desperate disease a disease that Could be treated but not cured it was a brain disease um we had noticed something going gradually wrong over the years before that and over the following 18 years of her life until the time she was in her mid-30s the disease got worse and worse and she was living in coffen garden and she turned a a husband a fiance and I'm glad to say that a year before the end she actually married him she had a son

Tony Tony is now a British Army rifl man I'm very proud of him last year he was given a mention and dispatches for saving the lives of two of his comrades in Iraq he has served four tours in Iraq and now he's in Afghanistan serving his third tour in Afghanistan I placed a copy of the mention dispatches on the in the drawer containing the ashes of his mother we were a close family when she realized that she was incurably Ill Josephine gradually began To decline she was a beautiful child very clever I'd noticed something very

bright about her in the very earliest years of her life she was so clever that she jumped a whole year at the French Lisa in South Kensington which possibly put an added strain on her brain I don't know in 1996 the year that my book on Dr Gobles was published um I might mention that I've been in Moscow In the KGB archives and I was the only historian to have found the private diar of Dr gbl's Hitler's propaganda Minister I was the only person who could read them anywhere in his handwriting and I brought them

back and I published the Diaries of the biography of Dr Joseph Gobles called Gobles The Mastermind of the Third Reich and it was published in 1996 in Britain it was never published in America because Deborah Lipat had put pressure on my publishers Mar's press and on all the publishing journals in the United States Publishers Weekly and Kus and the rest not to publish any books more books by me my publisher in America had resisted this pressure for six weeks as they said we're not going to surrender and I thought to myself yes you will and

eventually they did that was 1996 in the beginning of May 1996 I got a fact from my Publishers in Mountain's Press telling me that they were not going to publish a book after all they LIF was to blame for that but I was overshadowed by a far cruler event that happened that month Josephine my oldest daughter tried to kill herself a brave doctor in the London Hospital had saved her life had operated on her for 14 year 14 hours uh had unfortunately been left with no choice after a few days but to amputate her Limbs

and for the remaining Two years of her life three years of her life poor Josephine lived in a wheelchair with no legs her back broken and her limbs her arms shattered she was a lovely girl she came around to see me in 1999 about four months before the trial began her husband wheeled her around uh from c garden where she lived and she came to visit me in Mayfair I'm very proud of her she frequently visited me she couldn't come Up in the elevator anymore because the elevator was too small for her wheelchair we had

a chat she was talking about about buying a car and would I pay for the insurance for her and all the things that pass between a daughter and and her father and on an instinct just before she left I said to my secretary a legal assistant I'd had two two law students as assistants I said to Katherine would you Just run upstairs and get my camera please and I had Katherine take a picture of me standing next to Josephine outside our front door I never saw her again a few weeks later she succeeded where she'd

fell before and killed herself I suppose the pain was unbearable and it was a desperate desperate day for me I was sitting in my office when my sister phoned with the news you're going to wonder why I'm Mentioning all this in connection with the lipar trial well you then have a week which I suppose is the worst week in a father's life you telephone around the world to all her sisters and break the news to them and then you have the awful preparation of the funeral she was a Catholic we had the funeral ceremony in

the most beautiful Catholic Church in Mayfair and my family Came in from all around the world and the church was full she had many friends I had no no notion of all the family friends all our friends and all her friends from the Cen Garden area where she lived and that afternoon I went back to my study we had a reception and then everyone left and I was alone and the telephone rang and it was The Undertakers a wonderful firm of English Undertakers who had had to contact a week earlier I mean when you're a

father you're not accustomed to this bearing your own children and they knew this and they said Mr Irving you need have no worries we have handled the arrangements for Admiral Lord Nelson you know and they found that afternoon after the reception after the funeral after I kissed the coffin goodbye and they said Mr Irving something rather odd has happened a Wreath has been delivered here and it's too late for the service what shall we do and I said well tell me is there a card attached they said yes there's a card attached and there's a

very expensive wreath must have cost many hundreds of pounds his white L and white roses I said well please send it around straight away because I will have to thank the people who sent the wreath and the wreath was delivered by a courier an hour later to my front door It never came upstairs I read it and the card downstairs in the street and I went upstairs and got a camera and took a photograph of the card the card read in German I'm sorry I took a photograph of it the card read truly a merciful

death and the signature was Philip Boer and friends that would mean nothing at all to anybody who didn't know the history of of the Nazis in the Third Reich merciful death gardant Hood with the German the Nazi euphemism for killing the for euthanasia killing the disabled Philip bouah who had apparently signed this card had been dead since 1945 he was Hitler's left-hand man he was head of the euthanasia program he killed himself in 1945 at the end of the war this was a Nast little smear been sent by somebody with more than enough money to

spare aimed at destabilizing me two or 3 weeks before the trial began it was the nastiest thing that has Ever happened to me I'm not going to say that de lipat herself was personally involved in this I was efficiently worried by this that I took a photograph of the card because I thought it may be just a smear Rees today a hate Reese today tomorrow it may be a pipe bomb so I took a her took a photograph of the card before I destroyed the wreath I I phoned The Undertakers they were very shocked they

said we can't Understand how this happened sir it came from the Bloomsbury florists I visited the Bloomsbury florists that afternoon and as I came away from them they were deeply they were very embarrassed of course and very shocked and they sent around a wonderful wreath of flowers afterwards and uh they said the man who bought this wreath the white wreath the roses and the lilies he he looked like a mid he had a middle eastern appearance He looked very wealthy he was very well dressed um as I walked away from the shop I found myself

passing the front door of De lipat lawyers 100 yards away it was a very unpleasant experience the trial lasted three months but I never ever forgot what had happened to Josephine and the use to which my enemies had put it I'm not going to go into the details of the trial here because it's too complicated to it go Into but it was a very unpleasant experience any parent who's lost a child would know what I went through I was destabilized for many weeks afterwards when I was touring America in the summer of 2005 I received

a message from the um students who were going to invite me to to Vienna they said could I come to Vienna and speak to a student organization what the the austrians call A A student Corporation you know a dueling Corporation in Austria they Still have jewels and they fight with real sharp Sabers with proper padded clothing and the rest but the idea is to try and make a slash on your enemy's face on your opponent's face and in ger in Austria is still allowed and in Germany too of course during World War II it was

allowed and some of the top Nazis like Cen Bruner had the scar the schmi on their cheeks to prove that they were a member of a dueling Federation a student body the student body that Invited me apparently was called the Olympia I said to the students who contacted me by email I will certainly come and speak to you in Vienna but uh let's make the arrangements over the next three months rendus and times because I want it scattered widely we made two or three Rendevous rendevu a rendevu b rendevu c and arranged times and dates

and I left about left it until I until the time approached in November 2005 you may Wonder why we needed these arrangements and the reason was that I'd spoken in Austria in 1989 16 17 years earlier 20 years ago now i' spoken all around Austria with the permission of the Austrian government they had actually assigned police officers to attend every meeting I spoke at at our request so that we could justify that I'd stayed within the law with the marks I made because Austria and Germany got very tight rules on what you're allowed to Say

and um at the end of that particular 1989 tour I'd had to leave Austria and hurry if I can put it like that because word was handed down that the minister of the Interior a criminal called Carl bleer had actually issued an arrest warrant against me I call him a criminal because of operations he was sub found guilty of and um I managed to get away from Austria in time but one assumed that these things were done for what they Call Optical reasons op as they say in German and I went back to Austria two

or three times after that for example when I went to interview the the girlfriend of Dr Joseph Gobles Leader Bar over Beautiful film actress still living in Austria in her eights a wonderful stately woman and I wanted to interview her and ask her some very detailed and rather intimate questions about our friendship with Dr Gobles 1993 that was in July nothing happened in and out Waved in waved out by the police checked on the computer so I assumed that all this talk about in the restaurant with old hat even so when I went to Austria

to speak to the students in 2005 17 years later I'm not totally stupid I'm Boy Scout Boy Scouts have on their belt buckle the wor be prepared so I took eight shirts with me instead of just a regular one for a two-day trip you never know how long you're going to be staying there you didn't expect to be arrested And imprisoned but you prepared for it in case you were I I also prepared a page on my website to to be posted in event that I didn't didn't didn't manage to go back to London and

left detailed instructions with my family on how to put it on the website should I not return again I I was prepared and and uh I can give one example of that in fact years earlier when I was traveling To Europe with my wife we couldn't afford to fly in the 1960s so we used to go by a boat and I used to take a six foot length of string with me hidden in my luggage and I never told my wife that but the idea was that if the fery sank then I could tie our

life jackets together we wouldn't drift apart in the night it didn't expect it to sink but you were prepared so I'm a Boy Scout so on the night I flew to to Austria to speak to the students I didn't actually Fly to Austria I flew to the next country Switzerland landed in Basel Drove All Night 500 miles into Vienna and got to Vienna at 9:00 in the morning in a Swiss rental car and telephone the students not easily from a telephone a pay phone in Vienna because every phone had been wrecked by immigrants stealing the

cash mostly Romanian and I phoned the student spoke to the student who had invited me I should actually say the word student Has quotation marks around it because I'm still not sure he was a student I think he was probably a secret state official secret State Police and I said two words I said rendevu be in one hour and Rondevu be was the ticket Hall in the local ra Western Railway Station one hour later I stood in that rendevu not actually in in the rendevu point but on a balcony overlooking it to see who else

was going to be waiting for me there anybody with guns or anybody with Baseball bats like Chicago uh nobody else came there except eventually when one student or somebody looks like a student looking for somebody so we went and introduced ourselves and went immediately to somewhere else and had a coffee and I said I've been I've been driving all night uh I'm going to have to lie down for an hour or two one of I speaking tonight and he said 6:00 I said how many students are going to be there he said There'll be 200

students there I said 200 I thought it was going to be like five or 10 he said no they he said you can trust them this is a student body the Olympia they're not going to talk out of school so okay you get a bit nervous at this point and I said I got to lie down somewhere because I've been driving all night and he took his cell phone what what the Germans call a handy he took a cell phone and he phoned somebody he said her Irving will be there at 1:00 this afternoon already

not just at 6:00 because he's been driving all night okay he put the phone down he said that's okay Mr Irving I mentioned this phone call because the only people who knew I was going to be there at 1:00 were me and him and the person here just phoned we drove over to the student building parked around the back one Street behind it we walked up the side of the student Building as we walked up I said oh by the way is there a back exit I can get out of if there's an emergency I'm

always thinking ahead PR prepared and he said he said um he there's no there's no back exit I'm sorry so you begin to feel a little bit more worried now at this point I felt even more worried as we turned the corner into the main street with a student entrance on it and it's empty apart from three men on the opposite Side of the street who immediately peeled off the wall as they see me come around the corner and start walking diagonally cross the street towards me three big Burly men wearing uh wind jackets I

say to him who are they he says I I don't know and then as we close he says the middle one I recognize him he's sto sto starts polici State Police the old guo you remember in the hollyood move it the gapo they don't call it State Police now in Austria they call it The government agency for the protection of the Constitution and and anti-terrorism it hasn't got quite the same ring as as SHO but we walked straight through them I just said mild tight mild side to them good afternoon and we walked straight through

and that rather nonplused them because they hadn't expected me to speak German to them my suppose or the local vernacular and I said we'll go in the Pub on the corner and have and discuss what to do next and he said no it's too late they're following us I never saw him again he split off one way I split off down back behind the building again followed by one of these three thugs I thought they were thugs I didn't believe there were police and he didn't this the policeman was following me 100 yards behind me

didn't realize I had a car stack stacked around the back of the building I got around the back of the Building and I can see the car parked there at the end of the end of the street the far end of the street I walk down the middle of the street Bri brisk with a Brisk step shall we say not running but not actually walking and the guy is gradually gaining on me he doesn't know what I'm planning to do probably not even certain it's me and as I draw a level with the car I

I press the keys in my pocket and I hear the answering clunk coming from the locks as The doors on the car unlock and I jump into the right hand side of the car car and I sit down and I slam the doors I lock the doors and then I realize there's no steering wheel I'm on the wrong side of the car this is a Swiss car not an English car it's a stupid thing to do so it's a bad position now I'm in I'm in Austria I'm in enemy territory I've got the secret State

Police after me and I'm sitting in the passenger side of an otherwise empty car Trying to make a quick getaway not a good idea I can I I can begin to hear music playing in fact you know the Harry lime theme from the third man that happened in Vienna but Harry L managed to get away through a sewer a manhole cover in the street he vanished into the sewer system I can't see any sewers around I managed to get out of the car in time and jump into the driver's seat and lock the doors again

the guy hasn't quite caught up with me And I drive away in a flurry of of gravel and and and burning rubber look in the mirror and there he is standing in the middle of the road and he's writing down the license tag of the car not good the Harry lime theme is beginning to play Loud louder I mean in retrospect it's all rather funny the time was rather frightening I went and parked the car I phoned the student on his handy I said are we going to go ahead tonight somewhere else or not and

He said no tonight is off so I said good that's all I wanted to hear I'm out of here then and years later of course you think hello that's funny he's been picked up by the police and he's gone off with them in custody yet they let him keep his cell phone and take phone calls on it what's going on here he never visited me in prison I never saw him again I never heard a word from him he answered no letters my lawyers wrote them he didn't answer them I'm pretty Certain he was a

government agent I'd been ambushed but I could still have got away I bought a map the map showed that there were autoband all the way around Vienna the Ring Road there was an autoban the A2 which head us due south into Italy I wasn't going to go west again not back to not back where the way I'd come because that would be the way they would expect me to go in a Swiss car so I headed south I headed south and I'm driving South down the A2 for a Couple of hours Darkness Falls I'm keeping

a steady speed well inside the speed limit no other problems at all and my the the satav comes on on my car sudden your voice says you're on the A2 you're 200 mil south of Vienna and I'm thinking to myself well who else knows why I'm doing in mil south of Vienna well the answer is that way ahead a mile ahead I can see a police car cruising at the same speed as me so I'm anxious not to overtake it in case my lumber has Been put out on the system I thought it very unlikely

but I keep I think to myself in 20 minutes I'm over the water in Italy and safe then I'm going to head across Italy into into Switzerland up up Switzerland into barel catch the plane back to London bsh Airways and I'm back home with my family tomorrow night as planned but then in my mirror behind me I can see there's a police car just 20 yards behind me and then now they're together they box me in another police Car comes in and I'm forced off at high speed onto the hard shoulder of the road and

again you do crazy things in a moment like this it's not something you're accustomed to I pick my tape recorder up off the drivers off the passenger seat because I've been dictating notes and I think like a historian that I am like a journalist that I I could be let's record exactly what happens next in case there's any Dispute I'm about to switch on the tape record and pointed at the police who are running towards me when I can see that these eight policemen running towards me all holding black Glock automatics 9mm automatics in their

hands pointing at my head and screaming at me to put my hands up that's a very uncivilized feeling I might say if you have one Glock pointed at your head with the guy's finger actually on the trigger not on the guard this is an Uncivilized you got eight of them screaming at you it's it's weing seconds later I'm sitting on the back seat of the police car my hands handcuff behind my back and of course that's not a good time if they're screaming at you with their gun it's not a good idea to point a

metal tape recorder at them cuz later on they'll say we thought he had a gun in his hand that's in the United States of course he would have had a gun in your Hand because all the police there have a a throw down gun just in case of an embarrassing situation like that so they can say this was his gun seconds later I'm sitting on the back seat of the car and I can hear them saying we've caught the car thief I say hold it right there gentlemen I'm not a car thief I'm a geriatric

English writer here's the car rental papers you'll find them in the glove compartment of my car I'm not a car thief shut up screamingly screaming And then you realize of course they've been told I'm a car thief a dangerous armed car thief because otherwise how are they going to justify stopping me and pushing me off on on onto the hard shoulder at high speed and this was a problem I had later on in prison too in Vienna the guys come up to you in the prison yard and you got a choice there either you say

okay I'm just a historian I don't know what I'm doing here in which case They're all going to laugh at they're not going to take you seriously or you you do what I did you develop what what Tom Wolf called the the pimp walk in his book um whatever it was he you developed the pimp walk now you strut around like some big Burly negro prisoner and you to mess with me at your own risk so you don't say that they come up to you and they say I mean most of them are in there

for murder or or drug dealing or kidnapping or rape or Driveby shootings and there you are you are this this aged historian who's written 30 books and you don't quite know what you're doing there they come up to you and they say what what are you in for then in various languages you don't say what you actually you say it's a good thing you don't know what I'm in for man you I had my haircut very short just one millimeter all over and believe me when I got my haircut down to 1 mm I look

Really ugly and nasty bad enough as it is like this but really ugly and nasty with my hair really short so you say you don't want to mess with me better you don't know what I'm in for right let's leave it at that and you gradually earn a little bit of respect in the prison yard it wasn't so good though 3 months later when I went into the big courtroom the big courtroom they had chosen for my show trial the biggest courtroom in Austria in the same building the Justice Palace in Vienna 200 year old

building the the prison had, 1400 prisoners in it built for only 800 it was Where They carried out the executions rather like Pentonville in London and for the first time now for the David Irving trial they relaxed the rule of 30 40 years and the Press photographers and film cameras were allowed into the into the courtroom for the first 20 minutes it was an absolute uh be ground it was a night I could see through the crack in the door As I waited outside in handcuffs but I I I'd had time to prepare for it

I knew I was going to be led into the courtroom and I knew that the world's press were going to be there I could see 200 photographers Mass on the other side of that door all pointing towards the slit in the door that I was going to come through and I'd got a copy of my Hitler biography I haven't got it here where is my Hitler biography everything's gone here we are Hitler I'll get it I'll get it yeah so I could see the Press through that crack in the door 200 press photographers a television

camera from all around the world on the other side of that door and I'd prepared for this as soon as I knew this was going to happen and I'd got a copy of my book out of the property room Hitler's War here it is and for 3 Days in my little wet room in my cell my my my solitary cell I Practiced holding this book in handcuff not easy and a fountain pen cuz I'm a writer and I practiced how to hold it so that we didn't obscure Adolf Hitler and we didn't obscure the title

because I thought this photograph is going to be around the world in every newspaper tomorrow and it was and as luck would have it when the appeal came of course the end of the year after 400 Days in solidy confinement the the court had ordered Mr Irv not to be allowed to carry any books so I scored scored one there the other nightmare was coming into the courtroom and looking frantically the first thing you look for is the jury see what kind of folks you're looking at there was a jury 12 people there and unfortunate

I'm sorry it wasn't 12 people there was a jury and it wasn't 12 people it was eight and these AG seven were women now I don't know if you ever Remember that Jack Lemon film I think it's called how to murder your wife or something like that where he goes up to the jury and he says to or it Walter matau and he says haven't you all wished gentlemen that you had the chance of pressing a little button and getting rid of your wife but here are seven women who had the chance middle-aged menop menopausal

women who had a chance to press that little invisible button on the rail in front of them and get rid of Some unfortunate man and that was me the other nightmare thing you find out about the Austrian Court system is the judge goes into the Jury Room and debates with the jury he directs the jury on their deliberations Unthinkable in the British and American legal system jurus Prudence that the judge would go into the Jury Room the the the Keystone of the English and American legal system is the total Independence of the jury the jury

comes up sometimes with very odd decisions Indeed like the OJ Simson case but so be it no in Austria the Allies insisted the judge should be allowed to go into the jewelry room so the judge can tell the jury what to think and what the jury thought was that I should get three years prison um which was I must admit severe shock for me because I know how cruel the Austrian prison system is eventually uh I sacked my own lawyer at that time who had turned out to be completely Ineffective he knew nothing so far

as I could see about the Banning law and he was not prepared to put up a fight for me he went into that courtroom completely unprepared he had no speech or submissions to make to the jury and uh during the ensuing months I I sacked him and replaced him with Dr sha who was a very very fine tough octogenarian Austrian lawyer and he secured my my immediate release by the court of appeal it was an interesting Experience you sit for 400 Days in a room with no interruptions at all you're in the safest place on

Earth you got a 6-in thick steel door like a bank safe between you and the outside world you have no telephone no cell phone for the first three months you don't even get letters I didn't even know that people had written to me eventually 2,000 people wrote to me from all around the world including letters addressed to David Irving the goolag Austria they too Were delivered to me and it's a wonderful environment for a writer I didn't tell the prisoners of course but they did me something of a favor in those 400 Days I was

able to write 4,000 pages of manuscript partly Memoirs and partly my high biography so in a way my enemies did me a favor because as you come up towards the Amber lights in your life you do tend to slow down and take things a little bit easier and for those 400 Days I didn't take things easy I was Up and I was writing all day thank you Austria that's all I can say okay just leave me in David just explain what this is right this is David Irving and the Holocaust the Holocaust and David Irving

okay your mind fueled right just don't cover your M with your hand because that make go a little bit muffly when you okay right I want to talk about the Holocaust that is to say I don't want to talk about the Holocaust because it's a Minefield historians I suppose when they when they see David Irving getting involved in the Holocaust they say yeah go for it I'm interested to hear what you say and then they pull back to the perimeter they pull back to the Horizon they get out their binoculars and they have looked to

see they wait for you to go bang uh I haven't gone bang yet cuz I pretty careful about what I say people say oh David Irving's pulled back David Irving's attracted David Irvings revised his views I haven't within a narrow narrow band I don't think I've changed my views very much over the years but I've been very careful in what I say first of all I don't like using the word holocaust in in Greek the word means Sacrifice by fire um it's got a capital H where does it come from well it came in in

fact about 19 If you go back Beyond 1970 before 1970 you won't find the word being used in this context at all uh I know this because when I was in prison in Vienna arrested under their Banning law as a historian should be for writing the truth I suppose when I was in in prison in Vienna I managed to persuade The Institute of history in Munich which holds all my papers to send me the note of the interview I had with the brother of hinish himr the chief of The SS Gard him was his totally

unimportant brother he survived the War years there he was living in 1971 in in in Munich as a retired civil servant I went to interview him unfortunately I wasn't interested in Holocaust as it's called at that time um because I was writing my book about Adolf Hitler I was more interested in the relationship between his brother heiney and Hitler had I known I was Going to write a book eventually about himler I would have spent far more time talking to the brother but he's now dead what is interesting is at the end of my four-page

handwritten note of my interview with hin H's brother Gard I realized that although we had talked about the Holocaust we'd never actually used the word the word holocaust is nowhere on that on those pages and the reason is quite simple I think that about 1972 there was a meeting somewhere in New York Madison Avenue where the Jewish Community leaders got together with all the professionals and said we want to start marketing this we want to start making it bringing it to to the National to the global Consciousness in the same way that you Market a

product like Tylenol like headache medicine how can we do this and the pr Wizards have said well let's tell tell you how how you going to do this like any other product You got to give it a capital letter you got to give it a trade name you got to give it a capital letter you got to stress how unique it is no no Rivals uh you got to have a slogan U Guinness is good for you that kind of thing take courage whatever uh in this case of course it's the Six Million don't deviate

from that slogan no matter what other stuff comes up and and hey you're onto a winner you can make billions which of course is how things have gone Ever since that meeting which I suppose happened because from that day on the word holocaust is in the media it's taken off it's now exponentially risen until it's gone to Infinity if you if you go to the times index or the index of the New York Times in America go back before 1970 you won't find the word being used after 1972 it takes off exponentially it's been marketed

which means that as a historian you've got to Be extra careful say you're not being sold a bill of goods as the Americans say you're not being taken for a ride I believed the whole Holocaust story I'm not going to call it a legend I believed the whole I'm not going to call it a myth either I believe the whole Holocaust story until about 1988 if you read the first edition of my Hitler's book there's aitz in it as an extermination camp if you read the latest edition of Hitler's War you won't Find aitz an

extermination camp aitz is described here as being a brutal slave labor camp with a very high death rate which is probably a better description of it it was neither one thing nor the other and of course um certain people have taken that very much a miss that I don't go for the whole story if you don't go for the whole story you're in deep trouble your books are not published in this town again not only they're not published but They're not reviewed they're not reviewed they're not sold I remember my very dear old literary agent

Max Becker an American one of the United States's leading literary agents Max Becker saying David you got to understand one thing about publishing in the United States your problem when you write books like Hitler's War it isn't the fact that most of the publishing houses in the United States are Jewish because they are it isn't that fact that most of the Paperback houses what they call reprint houses are Jewish because all big seven reprint houses in the United States are Jewish your problem isn't even the fact that most of the literary editors are Jewish it

isn't even the fact that most of the oped writers the opinion writers in American newspapers are Jewish your biggest problem is the fact that most people who buy books in the United States are Jewish you're writing largely or significantly to a Jewish Audience and as the Germans say you can't spring you can't jump over your own shadow I just mention that in advance you've got a problem when you're writing about the Holocaust and I hadn't been aware of that problem until I started deviating and I suppose if I'm guilty of anything it isn't revisionism it

isn't Holocaust denial it's what the Communists used to call deviation ISM I deviate from the official from the Conformist line if you're a conformist historian like Martin Gilbert you're going to write the conformist line and your books going to be widely reviewed and published and sold and distributed and you're going to live a very comfortable life if you deviate from that line then hey you're in for trouble my deviation ISM began in April 1988 I was living actually on a beach in Florida I was in in comfort in in April 1988 on a beach in

Florida down south It's very very warm up in Canada it's very very cold I mentioned that because I got a phone call from Canada from the defense team defending a German Canadian called ER zundel I was a Hitler historian I was an expert on the third right would I be willing to come to Toronto within the next one or two days and give evidence in a court of law as an expert on Hitler and the Third Reich I said how cold is it and they Said well it's below zero present about minus 20 and I

looked at the temperature in Key West where I was in Florida which is in the high 80s and I thought I don't really want to go there but eventually I relented and I flew to Canada two or three days later they swore I'd be only one day that' be one day and I give evidence and I catch the next plane back straight to Miami and Florida down to Key West in fact I stayed there oh nearly a week very unpleasant very cold I gave evidence in the courtroom the judge accepted me as an expert on

the third R and what was interesting was before I went into the witness box on the day before defense Council the legendary Canadian Barrister Douglas Christie gave me a ring binder to read he said this is the lyster report and I want you to read it because I'm going to ask you questions about it so I read the lyster report for the first Time a film has been made about Fred leyer called Mr death Fred leyer is an unassuming and prepossessing American engineer engineer in quotation marks because he's never formally registered as an engineer but

he's the kind of person I would regard as an engineer it doesn't matter he was a man who was the hired consultant hired by American penitentiaries as a consultant on execution technology he gave opinions on gas Chambers he gave opinions on electric chairs he gave opinions on Gallows and he made them conform with health and safety standards if you can have such a thing as a health and safety standard when you're stepping into a gas chamber he was the expert and quite rightly the defense team for the unal case in Toronto had decided to pick

an expert on execution technology to to give an expert opinion on Nazi gas Chambers and it was a Minefield they opened Pandora's Box because Fred leyer was totally apolitical he had not the slightest interest in politics he wasn't an extremist his most most extreme action in life I think was opening a p bag full of potato chips that was about as Extreme as he got but he he warmed to the idea of going to Poland and visiting the campsites he wanted to see these things for himself Fred Le flew to aitz in February 1988 two

months before I saw His report and he took with him his Young Bride um and in fact the visit to the aitz Concentration Camp ruins was their honeymoon which shows how unusual it was and for the next two or three days after his arrival in the aitz site near kraa in Poland Fred leer burrowed around in that uh rather gloomy and Sinister environment with a bucket and Spade and took 38 samples I think it was 38 may have been 37 samples out of the brick workart out of the Fabric of those gas Chambers in asit

which are shown to the tourists it was I suppose a Blasphemous thing to do it was heresy it was trading on graves not the kind of thing that a nice guy would do but he brought back those 38 samples wrapped in viny plastic bags and from that point on he had nothing more to do with it he sent them or they turn defense team sent them to a reliable professional laboratory in Cornell Cornell University in New England itha and it was the job of this laboratory to carry out the tests and to examine these samples

of the brick work and water and cement to see if there was any trace of hydrogen cyanide poison in the remains now you might think hey 50 years have passed or in that time was 40 years 45 years have passed you're not going to find anything are you it's been washed out by the wind and rain well the answer is yes you will find something because hydrogen cyanide when It comes in contact with brick work the the iron content in Brick forms a very very permanent compound indeed feric ferrocyanide otherwise known as Prussian Blue it's

so so so permanent it's a dice stuff a blue dice stuff and if you go to aitz and have a look at the building which was acknowledged by all sides as being the fumigation chamber for fumigating clothing you can see the blue poison gas has seeped out of the fumigation chamber through the cracks in The brick work and has Stained the outside of the building this solid dark blue color so it it you do expect to find it after 40 45 years the problem was the laboratory that carried out the tests on these 37 38

samples found no significant trace of cyanide in the so-called homicidal gas Chambers at all allegedly a million people have been gassed in these buildings and yet there was no trace of the cyanide in them so imagine me a student of Imperial College of Science in in London I'd studied enough quantitative and qualitative chemistry to know that you can get to within six decimal points a good it's an exact science let's put it like that unlike writing history chemistry is an exact science if a laboratory says there's no Trace then there's no Trace they said they

found s significant traces of sanide in the brick work taken from the fumigation chamber the blue the blue walls nothing At all of any significance in the so-called homicide or gas Chambers for me that was a tilting point I was no longer conformist I became a deviationist revisionist a real historian I stuck my neck out I wasn't questioned on this in the witness box because the judge in the ear zal case in Toronto decided not to allow the loyer report as in as evidence because ler was not a qualified toxicologist and all the Things that

a qut would want but the report has been out there ever since it is a significant document and you can see how significant it is from the fact that the enemy the conformis historians and the Jewish Community went to extraordinary lengths to smear Fred leer from that moment on this poor inoffensive young man with a receding forehead and the receding chin the man who had taken no interest at all in politics was thrown cast out onto the Scrap heat he ended up selling matches on street corners he ended up in in fear of his life

his name vilified around the world by the very powerful organizations with a vested interest in perpetuating the Holocaust history I for my part was a man that could not so easily dismiss because I didn't come from nowhere and go to nowhere in the way that Fred ler did to use the words of the the film Mr death I came with a reputation as as an Historian I had 30 solid books behind me very widely reviewed and well reviewed by the world's press so they couldn't dismiss me so easily when I said in the witness boxes

I did that I'd seen no evidence that Adolf Hitler had ordered the gassing or liquidation of the world's Jews Germany's Jews Europe's Jews so they had to use a different attack with me they attack my Publishers they attack the newspapers who supported me and so on but the Fred loer report Was I think the solid ground on which I based my skepticism and I'm quite happy to say that I think Fred leyer did a good job the fact that he's not an engineer is neither here nor there what kind of engineering skill did you need

to scrape the these samples out of the brick work of that building he brought them back to the United States and he did the tests and the tests were carried out by qualified forensic chemists so that's what we know about Fred leer what Do we know about those buildings well if you go to aitz now the first thing you notice is it is marketed it's marketed in the way I suppose that could be quite tasteless and say it's marketed in the way that that Disney markets Disneyland there's a hot dog stand in the car park

which should tell you something about the buildings you're going to be visiting is they're built they're they're they're built in the war years and pre-war years for the Nazi Purposes but now they're they are being preserved for the purpose purely of making money they are a tourist attraction they show you a gas chamber in the aitz camp which is as genuine as the fairy castle is in Disneyland in fact it was built after the war built three years after the war was over 1948 if you go there now thanks to us the deviationist the revisionists

the real historians you'll find that the Polish authorities have now finally been Forced to put in an inscription outside the gas chamber which says oh by the way in very small print by the way this building was erected in 1948 as a replica well you can call it a replica I call it a fake if I give you a replica $20 bill it's a fake $20 bill and no one's going to be going to be tricked into using it without breaking the law but this building is a fake when I found out it was a

fake built in 1948 back 1988 1989 I started saying so Quite loudly I suppose in retrospect I should regret it being a qualified and and competent speaker there's no point just saying it's a fake you then have to embed the sentence in in memorable phrase I remember the phrase I used to use going around Canada and speaking was the building they showed the tourists in aitz as a fake built in 1948 more people died more women died on the backseat of Senator Edward kenn's car chap a Critic than ever died in that Building very tasteless

but you got to be tasteless to make a point and the point was remembered and well taken and the the my opponents have never forgiven me for making the point so well how many people did actually die on aitz it's a very interesting question the figure is ballooned I rather like the question the similar question how many how many Russians died in World War II you ask any German now there's whole 20 million was it some people will say 40 million Russians died in World War II because president viter said 40 million Russians died in

World War II but the usual figure is 20 million the actual figure is less than 5 million how do we know that well if you go to the British archives there is the private record taken by The Interpreter of a meeting between Joseph Stalin the Russian dictator and Winston Churchill on July the 19th 1945 when they met in potam and they're talking in private Over dinner about who should get what in the dismemberment of Germany and each side is boasting about the damages they suffered and Starin CED Churchill we entitled to far more because you

got to realize that we lost in the Soviet Union many many lives nearly 5 million Russians are dead or missing he would have had no reason to minimize if he would have heard every reason to exaggerate the figure and he said 5 million but you see how balloon Since then 5 million to 20 million to 40 million and it's exactly the same with the Holocaust figures how many died in the Holocaust I hate that word holocaust it's I mean you're falling for their their salesmanship when you use the word well the answer is a lot

how many Den I in aitz I think the best figure you can get is an estimate if aitz is the figure given by the Polish authorities the pols you see in Krakow in 1947 put on trial All the aitz top top dog all the top BR of aitz Rudolph H the commandant Al his Deputy lienel the successor of Rudolph H and the rest day 22 of them were put on trial in in kraco a lot of them were were sentenced to death and there is a video showing the actual judgment being handed down on them

the Judgment was handed down and in the Judgment it says these people who are guilty today had been the Principal officers of a camp a In which up to 300,000 people of all nationalities met their deaths came to an end doesn't say they were killed doesn't say they were gassed it just says they died up to 300,000 now these you got to realize this was the Polish courtroom which had all the the aitz documents and all the aitz prisoners to interrogate and the figure they used in their judgment as they sentenced these men to death

was up to 300,000 so how suddenly did the figure balloon to form On the memorial in aitz in the 1970s and 1980s the Communist director the Jewish director of the aitz State Museum franek peeper he eventually had that figure chiseled down and and a new monument erected to the 1.2 million killed you know it's rather like Monopoly the Monopoly money the way they play around with these figures I'm sorry for any individual innocent person who is killed in war or out of war that is the real crime in my mind the real crime really Isn't

genocide which is this invented word used by our opponents the real crime is what I call innocenti side the killing of innocent people the crime it's a crime because the victims are innocent not because they were Jewish innocent people you see the difference because but but but once you start talking about innocent people being killed being the crime the disadvantage for our opponents is that then suddenly all the global sympathy And treasure the money becomes entitled to a large number of people who are not Jews um the victims of hoshima the victims the bombing victims

of of covantry or Dresden they could start out the the Australians who suffered in the Japanese prison camps they could start claiming compensation and so they didn't talk about the innocent people being the victims they talk about genocide people who are killed by virtue of race and That's not not the real crime in my mind so in aitz probably up to up to 300,000 people died and I think think that's a reasonable figure from the papers that I've read and you notice the word died what did they die from let could be quite plain some

were gassed aler aler who was the deputy commandant of aitz for several several for nearly a year 1942 1943 he was taken prisoner by the British in Norway at the end of the war And he was questioned extensively and he was invited to sit down with a pencil in hand and write down all that he knew none of the famous Holocaust historians bothered to look at Al my uh writings his manuscripts I found them myself in 1992 in the British public record office nobody had bothered to look there I immediately tipped off Robert Jan van

Pelt who is the world's Global most famous Holocaust historian I tipped off Deborah lipat I tipped off M Gilbert I tipped off all the Holocaust historians and said I found the the private papers of of Alaya the deputy commander of aitz including all his manuscrip Memoirs of of life in aitz and what he did as commandant they never bothered to go and have a look doesn't that tell us something something about the quality of these so-called historians so what does Amaya tell us he tells us that when the train Lads began arriving in mid 1942

from all over Europe Jews deported to aitz as slave labor he found a lot of the Jews couldn't be used they were medically unfit they were too old too too frail too decrepit he said when these trainers arrived we selected those who were too frail to work and we took them around the back and disposed of them in two houses two little Cottages one called the White House house and I called the Red House go to alitz now as a tourist and ask the guides to show you the Remains of the red house and the

White House they will very reluctantly And I stress the word reluctantly take you to have a look but you really got to lean on them because they don't want you to see these they want to take you to the huge crematoria buildings that they say with the gas Chambers the ones that Fred leyer examined and found no trace of cyanide in because you start coming against coming up against Logistics problems when you look at the remains of The little Cottages first of all one Cottage is nothing to be seen the whole side's been grossed over

the other s side you can actually see the layout you can see the foundations of the White House the White House consists of two big rooms about the size of this study here and in that white house almire Deputy commandant says we could sometimes put as many two 200 people and we gas them from his writings it doesn't appear To been a very frequent operation he says it was just from now and again when train loads came and they had unusable Jews aboard so these gassings did occur if you accept that these papers aren't fake

and I don't believe for a moment they are fake the gas things did occur in our but on nothing like the scale which is part of the legend now the mass marketing scale that was was designed in that Madison Avenue meeting back in the early 1970s got to be unique it's got to Be bigger than anybody else's and then you can make B billions out of it so is David Irving a holocaust Deni I don't think so because we now start looking totally elsewhere in Poland we're looking no longer in aitz at this Disneyland site

in in southern Poland we're looking on in eastern Poland along the river boo in eastern Poland there are three or four sites which you can collectively describe either as the boo River camps or as the Operation Reinhard camps some of the conformist historians say oh yes the Reinhard camps were named after Reinhard hydris who was assassinated in May 1942 is not they they were named after a civil serving called Fritz Reinhard and he spells his name with a T at the end H R DT Fritz Reinhard was a civil servant a state Secretary in the

finance ministry in Germany and that gives you a clue as to what the operation was it was A thieving operation a looting operation the Jews were being sent to these camps and before they were being liquidated they were being robbed of everything they had it was a plundering operation and here is where I say I had to cross swords with the the main revisionist body they don't want to believe that the Reinhard camps exist I think the Reinhard camps did exist and I'm going to set out here very briefly the evidence for the Reinhard camps

Having existed I'll tell you the names first there was belich soore and trinka and on top of that came the camp called midan you can go and visit all these camps in Poland now but the reason they're not on the tourist rout is because there's nothing to see there's no buildings you can see no execution walls no buildings described as atoria or gas Chambers there just bald patches in the middle of a forest in each place and I to me that Is far more evocative far more lonely and Sinister when you go into the middle

of this forest and suddenly there's a one or two kilomet square Bal patch where nothing seems to have happened until you find for example at trinka there's a letter in the private papers of hinry himla who says when the operation in trinko is finished I want the whole site demolished and removed nothing must remain I when the whole side grassed over and a farmhouse a Farmstead built there in his place which can be given to some Ukrainian to run if you really know how to look at the private papers of H himler the chief of

the SS you begin stumbling across documents that have been clearly written as part of of a cover up September 1942 he writes a letter to the chief of the Gusto saying there's this very disturbing report in the London Daily Telegraph which has come to my hands which said the Jews are dying like flies In our camps I want you to investigate this and find out just what is going on and you look at that document and you think what is going on what is then you realize something that Hugh Trevor roer the famous British historian

told me many years ago in the 1960s he said David when you look at a new document think ask yourself three questions is it genuine who wrote it is it written by somebody who is in a position to know And thirdly why does this document exist and I know what he means the Germans were in a habit of writing what they call cover up letters letters that would exonerate them in the case that things went wrong aliis and that letter from hin Shimla the chief of the Garo heish Müller the letter from himler to Müller

is a cover up letter I want you to find out what going so I'm told the Jews are dying like flies and then in the Autumn of 1944 he writes to uh Dr gravitz who Is one of the head doctors of the SS chief of the SS Chief surgeon of the SS and he says Dr G it's a fascinating report youve written on the incidence of of illnesses in the concentration camps he say one very odd thing strikes me this is himlet to grait one very OD thing strikes me he says there appears to be

nobody dying of cancer in the concentration camps can you explain this is there some statistical reason for this can it be that we have Inadvertently stumbled across a cure for cancer oh ho it's a it's a little private joke between the two of them they know what's happening why people aren't dying of cancer in the concentration camps it's the same reason that people don't die of heart disease in France because they've died of therosis with the liver it's a statistical an anomaly in the concentration camps they've died for a totally different reason so you begin

Looking at himla documents and wondering to yourself is this a genuine document or not and then when you travel around the world as I have you come across documents for which there's no other explanation they are genuine in the Hoover archives at Stanford University in California where they have part of him's private papers I came across two documents that have been sent to him there are reports on the loot Which has been yielded by Operation Reinhard Operation Reinhard the operations in the bugra camps and it makes very Grizzly reading the two documents list all the

watches and fountain pens and gold coins and everything that been taken off the people passing through Operation Reinhard and you got the report for 1942 and you got the report for 1943 very interesting because it gives you a pretty clear idea of people who no Longer need their wristwatches and fountain pens and gold coins something is happening to them and all the valuables are being channeled back to Berlin for reprocessing and furbishing and overhauling and being put back on the market as part of a major systematic industrialized looting operation what is significant about these figures

is as I mentioned you got the figures for 1942 and you got the figures for 1943 now for 1942 we've got a totally Different set of figures in a document that I'm going to call the hler document in January 1943 at the end of that year Huffer who is a police officer in Lublin writes a report to Berlin saying the proceeds of the operations in 1942 are as follows and and he gives the most incredible breakdown of operations in three camps which he identifies as T S and B and he gives the total figure for

the numbers we processed in each of Those camps and the overall figure for all these camps together up to the last year of 1942 is 1.24 million Jews now the hler document of course is very significant you don't have to be a rocket scientist to Guess that tsnb are Treblinka subor and belet three of these camps you don't have to be a rocket scientist to guess what is happening to them in those camps they're not being processed through them they're being dealt with in them so youve got a figure For 1942 of 1.24 million but

remember we've also got the corresponding figure of the loot taken off them for 1942 we don't have a processing figure for 1943 but we do have the loot figure for 1943 and so you can probably extrapolate to a reasonable kind of ball Park figure for 1943 to and say it's probably another million so suddenly for those two years operation Reinhardt has generated 2.2 million people or More now for a revisionist this is difficult stuff to swallow and you're going to have to go back to the hler document and ask yourself the all important question that

Treva said question one is it genuine or not well you can go to the public record office in London as I still call it and you can look at the actual document it was decoded by the British a few days later we intercepted the wireless transmission the Germans for some reason Sent these messages by radio and not by landline we intercepted it we decoded it and it's in the British files it's found there by a couple of independent amateur British historians Steve tus is one of them and he deserves credit for finding this and making

it available the difficulty is the document contains anomal is first of all let me say that I'm 80% sure the document is genuine the hler document but there's a 20% nagging residual doubt the document contains anomalies first of all it and the corresponding document that goes with it are addressed to Adolf aishman now Adolf aishman is the big name and one thing I spotted about fake documents like the KU ya documents the ad of Hitler documents and so on is that they tend to be documents written about big names or by big names or to

Big names because that's the kind of Document that document collectors pay big money for so that's a bigname document the next thing is the wording contained in the document does not conform with German Civil Service standards which were very strictly adher to it just says referring to your message uh the answer is as follows German Civil Service require would require that document to say referring to your message register number so and so 1 2 3 4 5 dated January the 10th 1943 The answer is as follows but there is neither a register number or a

date in the document also the document has got the highest possible security classification gima and is only one of three documents in all the hundreds of thousands of decodes that I've read that has that top secret classification so we got those minor problems dealing with another very slightly lesser problem is that the totals don't add up there's a digit wrong you got a slightly awkward Problem then you're left with the nagging suspicion that is it a coincidence that that Sev digigit figure it gives as the grand total is identical to the grand total given on

a document called the cair document Richard cair hinry shim's Chief statistician at the same time order to draw up an overall 10e report on the final solution to the Jewish problem he sits down and he writes a report in which he he says what has Happened to all the Jews ever since the Nazis came into Power there were 1 million Jews in the world 10 million of them in Europe he says of these 10 million there's still about 4 million left here the rest have immigrated or natural wastage the the older ones who stayed behind

and died the younger immigrated and so on and then he goes on to say 1.24 million Jews however uh were sent to the camps in occupied Poland where they have been sub subjected to Special treatment well you don't have to be rocket scientist to guess what that word means and himler didn't like it himler wrode back to cair the statistician at the time and I I was the one who found these letters and him says do cor here excellent report well written a bit too long though you got to remember this report is going to

be shown to adol fitler the furer I want you to write a short version Oh and that sentence where You say the 1.24 million were subjected to special treatment I want you to reword that the 1.24 million were sent through camps in occupied Poland to the east somebody's having the wool pulled over their eyes but the significant thing is that figure is identical to the one in the hler document bit bit of a coincidence was the H document based on the kha document perhaps was the K document based on a hler document is one Or

the other a fake the ker document incidentally makes no mention of aitz here he is a statistician writing what happened to all the Jews and yet aitz doesn't actually figure well if 4 million Jews are supposed to have died there or been killed there in gas Chambers that's a rather significant Omission if you really do your homework as a historian you're left with these awkward problems so what do I as a real historian after 30 or 40 years work Fearlessly believe at this stage I believe the gassings did take place but the whole thing was

an ad hoc operation in these various camps designed and devised by the local commanders except for the three Reinhardt camps which were built as extermination centers no denying that and it's a Pity that the Jewish communities around the world have concentrated or latched onto aitz as their Disneyland because the real Operations were done further east not much money to be made there difficult to get to nothing to show the tourists unless there are tourists who are romantic and can hear the sigh of the the deceased and departed uh in the wind that blows through the

pine forests I'm not a romantic person I like to see the documents I like to see the evidence I can't be intimidated either by Publishers or by newspapers or by journalists or by thugs with baseball Bats they've tried everything and I still write what I found in the archives but I I do get good luck 1991 about 3 years after I first saw the loter report I went to BU asares to speak to audiences in bu asares in Spanish of course and at the end of one of these meetings um a man came up to

me with a brown paper parcel and he handed it to me he Mr Irving I think you're the right person to have these he is a man of Flemish origin he Lived in Buenos AES and he was close to a friend of Adolf Ean Adolf Ean had been captured in buos in 1960 by the Israeli Commandos and taken to Israel and and put on trial and hanged I think it was a small Cog frankly I don't think he a very important man but his family worried that these Israeli Commandos would raid his house next because

he was kidnapped in the street decided overnight to put all his private papers in the hands of a friend of the family This friend of the family gave them to my man in Buenos Ares who now handed this brown paper parcel to me I took it back Greenland and a few weeks past before I actually opened it and began reading what Ian had been writing he had begun about 1956 in captivity writing his own Memoirs putting things down on paper getting things straight in his own mind he knew that there was an international human and

cry now and he began writing His own Memoirs down repeating himself many many times over you can see the tendency to Alibi beginning in it he begins he more than once he says I remember back in 1941 when when rinard hydr the chief of the r sikah Heights the right homeland security agency as I would say Reinhard hydris came to me and said that himra has told me that the fura has reached the decision that the Jews had to be physically annihilated people point that to me and Say there you are David that's the evidence

you're wrong Hitler was involved I don't think so I got evidence there only of of of Adolf Ean being involved and of Adolf Ean sitting down in the 1950s realizing that the day is going to come when he does have his day in court and the only thing that will get him off the hook is if he says I was carrying out Hitler's orders that's the way the human mind works I'm not saying he consciously did it more likely that Hydr came to him one day and and said the fur Adolf Hitler's ordered he wants

the Jews all out of Europe and from that had then developed the the more radical version clearly such an order existed you would expect to find it on paper you would expect the British to have decoded it somewhere you would expect somebody to have written a letter home to their mother saying uh dear Mommy I have today had to transmit the most terrible order to the SS grou fuers on the Eastern Front this kind of thing and after 60 years we're entitled to expect such an order to come as you probably know for six for

ever since my book on Adolf Hitler Hitler's war was published in 1977 for 42 years now 32 years now I've offered ,000 reward for anybody who can find one wartime document showing that adol fitler even knew about aitz let alone gave orders for the killing of the Jews the only documents You gradually find run the other way we find that on the day that AIT was overrun by the Russian army the Red Army in January 1945 the chief of the German general staff General gelan comes to Hitler and says at the war conference which is

written down by shorthand writers yesterday the Red Army overran aitz manura and Hitler a few seconds later saying but what does he say does he say oh my God I hope we managed to destroy everything before the Russians Find it so they got no trace of what we've been up to no he just says okay yav means nothing to him it's the same if you look at all the documents if you follow the the methods that I use when I wrote my Hitler biography I picked only genuine documents ones that I was pretty satisfied that

were genuine at that time we didn't have any of the decodes of course I picked documents that have been on Hitler's desk documents of which he Was aware I had a pretty strict Criterion I applied and you get a very different picture then you get a picture then of Al fitler putting out his hand and protecting the Jews every time there was any risk of any harm being done to them it's very unusual picture for a long time I was way out alone on on a short plank uh in my my opinion that Alo fitler

was not an antisemite during the War years but I'm glad to see now that An Austrian Professor who's probably risking her own liberty in saying this a professor at the University of Vienna Bita hamon has published a book called Hitler in Vienna in which he comes to exactly the same opinion that during World War two after he came to power adol fitler was not an anti-semite not anti-jewish okay he made these speeches I got them on the wall here there anded the ad Hitler is one of the most most famous Spees of adol Hitler prophetic

warning to the the world's Jews this is the famous speech of January the 30th 1939 I've had it on my wall ever since henryon gave me these copies of the Nazi newspaper but if you open that page you take it out of its frame and you open the newspaper up you find the actual speech is six pages long and the reference to the Jews is only three or four lines long that's what his interest Was but it was the nais who were with him Rosenberg and Borman and himler and and the others Alo of Ean

from the top dogs down to the junior ones they were the ones who wanted to carry out the campaign to its murderous conclusion Alo of Hitler was more interested in winning the war we got episodes of this throughout the War years a famous episode November the 30th 1941 he found out that a train load of Jews was leaving Berlin and heading to heading to Riao on the Eastern on the Eastern territories newly newly occupied and himler came to him and said why don't we just liquidate them we can't house them and and Hitler says that

out of the question and himler had to telephone hydr we got his own handwritten telephone notes saying kind not to be liquidated it was too late they were already dead they were already lying face down dead sardine fashion in p All machine gun to death 1,000 Berlin Jews that morning in the pits outside Ria along with 4,000 local Jews from Ria who been swept up in a liquidation action by SS Gro F yel who was the chief of the SS and police in in Ria on that day and the interesting thing now is that we

have the intercepted messages that passed between himler and yel that very day that morning yel sends him a message which we intercepted and decoded saying her R fura can you get for me 12 More of those fantastic finish made tommy guns the ones with the with the drum magazines because they're ideal for our Z and our special operations meaning The Killing operations you like like James Kagney you know in the movies tommy guns with with with the drum magazines and the swy magazine Tommy Gun was ideal for the killing operations and yon sends his message

to himla the message which yon gets back that evening is anything but What he expected himler says the operation you carried out in RGA grossly violates the guidelines laid down by me and hydr any such further excesses will be ruthlessly punished you are to report the headquarters he's referring to the killing of the Berlin Jews and and and the local Jews it's very it's not the picture you get you see when you read the books by Martin Gilbert and the others something is going wrong something is very Hazard on the Eastern Front and later that

evening a few minutes later grman him's Chief agitant sends a message to the same SS Journal at rer saying you are to inform us how you're arriving so we can have you met and from him's Diary we see that yo to see him on December the 4th and they had supper together and talked about uden Fraga the Jewish problem that's real history That's What I Call real history and you get the image that something is going wrong something is not wanted by Hitler's headquarters in fact on that very day November the 30th there's a German

army colonel who hears what's happening to the Jews outside the town and he's lost all his Jews that there and he's wondering where his Jewish workers have gone the local SS guy says well if you want to know what's happening to your Jewish friends you better drive out town down the road to to Jun to advin about 8 km and you'll see what's happening to your lovely Jews And the colonel he describes in April 1945 to a prisoner in a British prison camp here near here in latima and he says so I drove down the

road and there was this open field and three two or three pits have been dug out and truckloads of Jews are being driven up and made to lie down in the pits sardine fashion and they were being machine gun to death by these men standing on the rim and the fellow prisoner says but G cuz he's a general Now he G what would the gun was saying were they saying anything when they were doing this oh yes all these coarse remarks these coarse shouts we go I remember one of them shouting look at that one

look at that beauty and I can see her in my mind's eye now a beautiful girl in a flame red dress and that's that day November the 30th 1941 and he says we we discussed it among ourselves army officers somebody Had to tell the fur adol fitler what was going on none of us wanted to be the one so we sent for a liutenant and told him to come out later that day see what was going on and write a report and we sent his report up to Hitler's headquarters and that evening the order came

that this kind of shooting had to stop immediately forth with from Hitler's headquarters you won't find that in the books by Martin Gilbert either because they can't fit it in they can't fit any Of these documents in in the spring of 1942 after the van conference where they discussed the logistics the transportation movements of the Hitler's order that all the Jews had to be thrown out of out of Germany ship to the east this was Hitler's order quite without without question in in January 19 January the 20th 1942 this conference had taken place at van

and a month later another conference took place and the report on that was circulated among the Ministers and you can you can see a reference to it in goal's Diary he says well obviously not much is going remain of the Jews when all this operation's over he says you can say that probably 80% of them are going to be wiped out and 20% will be put to work that's what he writes in his diary but number other ministers are very worried about that the Minister of Justice schlegelberger who's standing in for gner who died schlegelberger

writes a memorandum a Letter to the chief of the Civil Service Dr Lamas and he says what's going on here he says I can see that if we go on down this down this particular Road uh the fur Adolf Hitler may find himself rushed in stampeded into decisions that we later regret Lamas wres pum saying I think you're right I've come to Berlin at the end of this month March 1942 and we'll have to talk about it it you and me we got these letters these letters actually exist and Lamas came to see Schelberg the

Minister of Justice who's a lawyer of course and the lawyer schlegelberger sits down and he writes a memorandum which I can quote you verbatim because I read it so often in German R Minister Dr Lamas T me AIT R Minister Dr Lamas has informed me that the furer that's adol Hitler has repeatedly ordained that he wants the solution of the Jewish Problem post poned until after the war is over we got that actual memorandum it vanished in Urberg you couldn't find it because the American lawyers in urberg I know who it was actually destroyed the

the negative photocopy they had made it vanished from the file because they can't they can't use a document like that showing Hitler saying nothing must happen I want everything left until the war is over typical Hitler procrastinator but also he wanted to win the war first he said let's win this war first we're in difficulty on the Eastern Front we don't Need all your problems let's win the war first then we can deal with with the churches and the Jews and all the other little subsidiary problems that are fascinating and obsessing you guys typical Hitler

but the Holocaust historians like longerich or Martin Gilbert or Robert Jan van Pelt to them this is a square document and they can't Ram it into their own round Holocaust hole and so what do they do they toss it under the table and hope nobody will Find it and Along Comes This Dreadful David Irving and found the document and says how do you explain this them how do you square this with your theories arrest that man he's a fascist he's a holocaust denier ruin him smash him and that's that was their answer of course but

the document is still there in the archives we found the actual document now it's in the German government archives Hitler ordering the solution of the Jewish Problem the Holocaust Whatever the others were asking for hold it off fellas until this war is finished it's there in black and white written by a lawyer lawyers know how to write documents they write very very prec here's here's let I'm going to bore you by staying with this document for a minute or two all the rest is pure Guff longish and the other historians who who who waffled R

about Hitler and the Final Solution on himler they come Up with their theories and then admit well I've got no documents that that support my my theories but here I come to them with a document a wartime document a genuine document written by somebody who knows written by the chief of the ministry of Justice based on a conversation with the head of the Civil Service who's been close to Hitler they're talking about Hitler they're talking about the final solution of the Jewish problem they're talking about Dates and decisions and yet you won't find this document

mentioned in a single book written by these conformist historians it reminds me of another document the night of broken glass 1938 when Gobles The Evil Genius behind Hitler's bench GBL has ordered all the synagogues burned down and attacked and all the Jews rounded up and and harassed and molested and and and terrorized because a German Diplomat has been assassinated by a Jewish lunatic in Paris gbls had ordered this outrage during the night this pogram as the Russians would have called it and Hitler is totally in the dark Hitler's private staff they said to me her

Irving we were with uh the furer the chief ad of Hitler that night in Munich we were in our apartment and beneath his we got word from the hotel that Prince regenton stasa the Four Seasons Hotel to come immediately and get our baggage because a sinagogue was on fire next door to the Hotel risking the hotel we went upstairs and told the chief and Hitler said what what's going on then find out and he sent for Gobles he sent for himler the chief of the SS and he was Furious he was livid with rage and

all night long he orders Gobles and the others to issue orders to stop this madness and in the archives I found one of these orders signed by the deputy by the office of Hitler's Deputy Rudolph Hess sent out by his office uh 10:00 10th of November 1938 sent out at 2:58 in the morning nearly 3:00 a.m. again it's only two or three lines long it said says on orders from the very highest level if you're the deputy to Hitler and you say this is orders from the highest level this is the guy above you adol

Hitler himself on orders from the very highest level there are to be no Arenal acts of Arsenal outrages against Jewish property on any circumstance under under any circumstances Whatsoever and I remember reading this to an audience in the University of bond many many years ago 400 students packed into the main the auditorium maximum and the University of Bon all the academic in the front row the professors and all the Communists and reds sitting in the back waiting to cause an uproar and a tumult and I pride myself that I can win an audience in a

couple of minutes and I started off with that document I read this out to you and I said I'm going to Read out a document to you that you have never ever heard of before and I read out those two lines the night of broken glass an absolute silence a total hush fell on the auditorium and I said now you're going to have to ask yourselves ladies and gentlemen here in the auditorium why I am coming to you as an English writer and telling you of this document that has existed for 40 years and you

have never been told of although you are Studying third right history there's only two possible explanations either that your academic sitting here in the front row knew about this document and decided not to tell you about it or they didn't know about this document and they were ignorant in which case they don't deserve to be teaching you in the first place and the auditorium erupted in Applause of course now you begin to understand why I'm banned from German soil why I've not Been invited to speak at universities recently it's because I come with the harsh

facts based on what I found in the archives I'm not going to bore you with all the other documents but there's a string a chain of documents that I put before the court in the lipst out trial it show adol Hitler trying to stop ugly things happening to the Jews again and again like that November the 30th 1941 episode in Ria with the Berlin Jews in 1943 October 1943 the the German Diplomat in Rome which had just been occupied by the Nazis the German Diplomat in Rome sends a message to the German forign Ministry saying

the SS Chief here in Rome has told me that he's received orders to round out the 12,000 Jews in Rome and send them to Northern Italy where they are to be liquidated he uses the word liquidated you don't have to kind of you decode euphemisms right And I'm going to have to stop here what' you say Jessica can you turn off the oven and then again in October 1943 we have exactly the same kind of episode on October the 4th 1943 the Diplomat in German Diplomat in Rome which had just been occupied Italy had just

been occupied by the nzis the German Diplomat in Rome sent a telegram to the foreign Ministry in Berlin saying he just been told by the SS Chief in Rome that he had received orders to Round up the 12,000 Jews in Rome and ship them to Northern Italy where they were to be liquidated and he uses the word liquidated no no euphemisms there ribbon trop who is the German foreign Ministry goes to to see Hitler that same two days later I know this because I've got the actual visitor the guest register of alol Hitler's headquarters and

that shows ribbon drop visiting Hitler and later that day ribbon trop sends a Message back to the German Consul in Rome saying the fur has ordered that the Jews of Rome are to be sent to to aitz and to be kept alive um so here again AL F intervening saying not to be liquidated kept alive as hostages kept as porns and um you would don't find these documents quoted anywhere I brought this up in the lipat trial immediately of course the conformist historians they become contortionist Historians they go into contortions then to try to explain

that that document meant everything else but what it actually said on the face of it I remember questioning the chief expert witness in the libat trial about the one I mentioned just now about the night of broken glass I it here you've got a two-line document showing quite clearly Hitler intervening on the highest orders to stop the outrages how do you explain that he said oh I read this document Totally differently I read this as Hitler saying well go ahead fellows carry on brutalizing and bashing up the Jews and throwing them into concentration camps and

murdering them and burning down the synagogues but watch out for the property that's next door to German property in case you damage the German property I remember saying to him professor professor Evans Professor Evans you read All that into those two lines do you heavy sarcasm of course none of it because at the end of the day the judge should have just did this um in the lip trial so you get this picture of a not an actually benevolent Alo of Hitler but a Hitler who couldn't really care about the Jewish Problem in the war

years and I'm going to end on the very last moment of course of Hitler's life When he took his own life on April 30th 1945 I remember speaking to his secretary Char ler TR was his youngest and most beautiful secretary together with G Christian um he sent to tra in the bunker just after the wedding to Eva Brown and funga said to me she said Mr Irving after the wedding of Hitler and Eva Brown who is now Eva Hitler the chief sent for me and he said fer come into the adjoining room will you please

And bring your Shand pad and no sooner he closed the door then he immediately began dictating without any notes off the top of his head and I realized he was dictating his his his final Testament his last willing Testament his political Testament and halfway down that political Testament you come to a sentence which has baffled historians from memor roughly he says I command my Successor Admiral dnis to carry on the remorseless fight against the Jews which we have carried on for the last 12 12 years although we have used methods that are far more Humane

than have the enemy the allies with their ruthless bombing war against German civil Ians in the German cities and it's the word Humane that baffles people they say how can Hitler say what he was doing to the Jews was Humane well just possibly he wasn't in The loop just possibly himler was doing things that Hitler wasn't aware of and this isn't just a weird Theory because him's Chief of Staff General Carl W um he survived after the war a long time because he had dealt with the allies and he had done a deal with the

allies he wrote private Memoirs which he deposited in The Institute of history of Munich on the condition they remained confidential and for many years they remain confidential but my historian friends let me read them and V says I remember in August 1942 discussing with hry himler the chief of the SS and he was particularly depressed and dejected downcast and I said why are you depressed Chief and himler replied I am doing something of which the Messiah of the coming 2,000 years must never Learn Carl W goes on to say I didn't realize what he was

talking about at the time but now of course I do this was right at the height of Operation Reinhard the killing of the Jews in the bua camps but himler says I was doing something I am doing something of which the Messiah of the coming 2,000 years must never learn and finally other historians like longish are coming round to my view point that probably H Hitler himself was Being kept deliberately out of the loop uh longer writes in his uh latest himler biography I believe I've only read the newspaper reviews he says that if you

read the hinish himler speeches carefully you see that he's very careful not to claim that he's acting on orders from Hitler and the language he uses leaves strongly the impression to the historian that in fact he was acting on his own on one point in a speech in October 1943 him actually says and I know a lot in a speech to SS generals he says I know a lot of you understand why we're killing the the the Jews but a lot of you don't quite understand why we're also killing the women and children and he

says I'm doing this I've Tak I have taken this decision myself because it will be wrong to leave Generations uh our coming generations to to deal with this problem all over again so again he could so easily have Said Hitler has taken this decision or the fur has taken this decision but he doesn't he says I have taken this decision and again in that famous message to General yel at Ria he says you've exceeded the guidelines laid down by myself and by the R by hyr he doesn't say the guidelines laid down by Hitler so

in summary what do I believe happened there are two kinds of killing of the Jews there was the killing of the Jews in in camps like Aitz where excess Jews were disposed of because they couldn't be put to work of slave labor on a very small scale on a comparatively small scale and there was a systematic mopping up our operations behind the Eastern front in cities like Ria and Minsk the Minsk was in white Russia the governor of white Russia was willhelm Kuba kuber's son lives in Argentina now his son recently sent me 200 negative

Photographs from his father's collection I scanned these in very close detail and I've enlarged one of the scans one of the photographs shows just a huge heap of baggage EMP no there an empty Street a heap of about 200 suitcases and Trunks piled up on the sidewalk beside the street and if you zoom in on the labels on one of the bank one of the one of the bags you can see the name begins with Sarah soah it's probably a Jew this was typical of what happened in Minsk the Jews were liquidated in Minsk as

well and I I think there's no question that the Jews in Minsk and riao and other cities along the Eastern Front particularly down the far south they were rounded up and taken out in the outskirts out of sight and liquidated systematically liquidated as part of the anti-partisan operations preemptive killing so this did happen it happened on a huge scale I think the Jews have made a big mistake In trying to sweep it all up into one concept the Holocaust with the capital H and Market that in the same way they would Market headache tablets just

to make money it has I think debased the whole of this vast human tragedy they should be looking really at other issues they should be asking themselves can this happen again why did it happen in the first place why us they never asked the Why Us question because even posing the why ask question is Considered to be anti-semitic the suggestion that they themselves are partly to blame for their own tragedy The Architects of their own Misfortune I think these things should be looked at closely nobody would want a tragedy like this to happen on this

kind of scale again the whole German people now bearing the guilt for the crimes committed by a few people in their name it may happen again of course because it has not been systematically and properly Researched it is wrong that historians who deviate from the official line should be penalized and criminalized and cast into prison for asking awkward questions the questions remain and it is for us the real historians of the world to try and find the answers thank you for listening