Misogyny & Misandry with Michael Kaufman and Jude Kelly

We we met for lunch a few months ago now and we talked about what we'd like to talk about and I said I'd really like us to discuss misogyny because um it's a term which is rarely discussed actually although people raised it as a word and then sort of put it back down again and we and then uh we just we realized that we could talk about misry as well and um and I had to ask what That meant so I'm going to start by perhaps asking you to we both Define what we think those

two words mean I mean I would love to hear from you first um if um rather than starting with a man trying to Define that's me yeah but just you know as a woman I would love I'd be curious like what what has been your experience around misogyny like how does how do you experience it in your daily life Throughout your life is it a daily experience uh okay well I think that I've I I would distinguish between sexism and misogyny but like a spectrum of other things to do with behavior casual sexism overt sexism

when it starts moving moving towards something which is actively Desiring to humiliate or hurt you then are onto the border of misogyny and then You're into something called misogyny so I mean I I uh I'm going to start with the experience of being a young woman looking at horror movies and me being a blonde woman blonde girl which is that I can never never lose the idea that some people enjoy watching blonde girls running for their life through Woods knowing that they're going to be caught at some stage and something horrendous is going to happen

to them And the idea that that that is a a pleasurable thing for people it is well that was my first experience I suppose of something which is popular entertainment but for you know I don't know whether this Tes with any of you but for a young blonde girl it's left me with the impression that I'm I'm never safe in woods and streets and all the rest of it for this unknown Terror which includes the idea that actually I exist to be a victim so that's how you know That's just something in my sort of

folk memory from a very early age which I only later began to think actually that's a constructed image and then you take that further and you think well if that's a nice thing to do chase girls and terrify them and Hound them and turn them into prey which of course is quite a psychopathic thing to do but the fact that that that the psychopathic nature of that becomes popular entertainment I experien that as um a sort of enjoyable Playing with a a victim and that victim is one so I call that misogyny but it's so

endemic into entertainment that people would probably find that extreme of me to say but you know just in terms of how I experience it so that's you know from an early age that feeling I I you you then move on to um other images in popular entertainment which are ones where women being slaves in some way to be hurt or mutilated or made fun of or or just kept at the margins like little Dogs or you know pets um that feels immensely distressing to me because you feel as if no matter what you do and

you know here am I you know we all know I'm the artistic director the center but you just think well finally finally I can be made Nothing by this idea of um of all the other women so all other women being used in that sort of way anonymously uh does affect me and I I feel um Humiliated and then I suppose the the other experience of um misogyny which is so painful is when you realize that raping women as a weapon of war or torturing them in a particularly sexually dep braved way is is a

is a an act by States or armies or um criminal gangs that is designed to say we would we would want to hurt you anyway if you were a human but we're going to hurt you extra Specially in a particular way because you're a woman and it it's still baffles me what it is in if I say men I don't mean individual men I've met but the the male species what it is in the male species that has some glimmer of the idea that hurting women specifically because they are women would be acceptable or a

good thing or you know that that's and I've often wept not because I've been hurt but looking at women being humiliated in That way and thought why do men want to do that so that's my experience of misogyny and when it turns itself and knowing that I I think you know a lot of men would not behave in that way doesn't stop me feeling that they might behave in that way that there's enough material around somewhere in their Consciousness to collect it back up into misogyny if they were put into a situation either as an

army or in a corporate boardroom or any other area Where they suddenly went you know what should we gang up on some women and I feel it is too near the surface for too many men and boys that's what I feel about thank you misogyny does that surprise you no yeah and and so the and one of the things that I I suppose in reclaiming the idea that the women's movement was absolutely Necessary um it it's because I feel that unless women can help themselves uh feel that being pushed back by that wave of of

hatred that comes towards you or or antagonism or hostility uh even if it's quite mild ridicule that that you do that to anybody do it to any you know young person just make them feel stupid you know they won't come back for more very easily they have to have a lot of resilience to keep coming back and Coming back so if all around you you have this as say the Spectrum from mild sexism through to extreme misogyny then to to enter public life and sort of stay there in in in areas that that have that

readily available well you know women have to have a kind of gumption which is more than perhaps one should expect of them and yet they do need it because we can only change Atmosphere by being present um and So when I began to realize that the um the reason for not bringing feminism back in was partly because men were saying we don't want all that hostility towards us you know you made us feel bad you seem to hate us uh so if you're going to bring back feminism could you be nice to us this time

fair enough I then thought okay well in that case can we discuss misogyny and can we ask men to take a lot more responsibility for a Acknowledging it and then B helping us do something about it and so that led me to think well is it Primal is it something that will never never change or is it something that men kind of would also like to see put into a slightly different situation you know I I um well thank you for for sharing those things when after we talked and and and and as I started

to think about this topic one of the things that struck me was I do think we need to make a Distinction between the individual misogyny of an individual man who you would talk to him you'd hear what he says and you would just say that is a man who hates women I me remember the the the original name of uh The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series was men who who hate women and there are some men in the world who hate women uh and just that overt um translated into violence sorts of ways I

think on top of that and this is What I and I think most men would would hear that and they would see it and they say well no I'm not like that I love women I care about women um why are you using this blanket term but I think that and I want and I and you know following the the contributions of of of feminist Scholars and and and and activists who've talked and written as you have just very quently just you know it's just you didn't have to you didn't have to like think for

long that you know About it was just like it's right there right so part of your experience as a woman I I think there's a much deeper thing uh for men now I don't think it's about being male I don't think this is biology but you know there was there was this wonderful speculation done by um a feminist philosopher named Mary O'Brien a Scottish Canadian philosopher who's now dead and I don't know if anyone is of the same age of me remember her book the politics of reproduction um but it Was a brilliant book and

one of the things she did was speculate on the origins of patriarchy and she and she speculated that at least part of it comes from this this very deep jealousy that that men uh you know our our ancestors way back felt at this unbelievable ability that women had which was to bring life into the world um and and I think that there's part of part of the part of the the the Gestalt of a of a male dominated Society is this Profound um jealousy Beyond jealousy fear of of of women's power I mean this is

the ultimate this is the ultimate trick I mean you know my goodness you know and particularly in an age where the male connection to that was was was unknown and so I you know I do think that there's this deeper deeper fear that gets gets translated into hatred but I think where the hatred often comes out is not around females although for for Some men as I said that is it but I think that there's bigger hatred of the principles that we associate with femininity because when you think about it the ways that we raise

boys to be men is this Relentless drive to to root out all those things that we have traditionally attached to femininity so the ability to be uh tender nurturing loving uh receptive um uh to take pleasure rather than just to you know to give whatever it might be um all those Things um you know to be passive rather than just active all these principles uh we instill enormous shame fear humiliation among boys and men uh with any of those things and I think that what happens is that men tend to externalize those things rather than

saying all those things are part of the human Birthright having this whole range of feelings and possibilities what we do is we externalize them we project them just onto the other half of humanity and Then how do we justify that that we've lost that in ourselves well we vilify it and I say we some sort of collective historically men have done this I don't mean you know you and you and you um so I think that there is this Collective fear and hatred of the things we associate with the feminine and um fear hatred jealousy

um particularly if it's in oneself um uh but then then in some men that does then get that coalesence into the sort of pathological levels of Of D you know direct uh misogyny okay well if that's the case that this Relentless drive to establish maless as what it doesn't have as well as what it does have well first of all why is my first question why does that constitute maleness you know and this is the thing this stuff is just cooked up you know it's it's ridiculous who who cooked that up then you you know

I'm trying to still Find his name um but you know it's I this is like the clear the collective experience of male dominated societies and we can see that because our definitions of what it means to be masculine or feminine for that matter of course vary from culture to culture era to era so it becomes this Collective expression and it and it and and it does vary but you know but a set of core things that we we assume and we justify uh and we articulate and we we reproduce Men's Power by by associating a

set of qualities with being powerful um it's it's nonsense and it's just it's like everyone everyone out there in here wherever is taking the same drug and we're having the same hallucination oh yeah that's masculine that's feminine where th where where actually those things are just just a creation and and so that original feminist contribution of making that sharp distinction between sex biological sex and gender gendered Are many different gendered experiences is such a Salient one here um to to challenge that to challenge any sort of uh notion that somehow we're stuck with this stuff

forever well I'm assuming that in some way we won't be stuck with it forever I mean I think one has to hope that is the case um obviously you read all kinds of material from as far back as writing began and women have railed against the treatment that they've received at the hands of men and Men have ridiculed women from the beginning of writing so this I I really hate the phrase Battle of the sex is actually cuz it just it's so kind of reductive but but this tension um which is obviously something to do

with sexual need as well I mean the the complication of need uh um and desire is is in there too but you wouldn't think that this that the the Power Balance of you know of governments would be so regimentally divided against women being part of it I Mean that seems It's almost like an obser line to that has been drawn between men and women that men have to have power and women can't have it um I mean I can completely understand if you say look um because you have children could you just stay with them

and I'll go out and get the lion if LIF lions are what you get but um bring home the tofu bring home the tofu but the reality actually is when you look back into history as well that Is not really what's ever happened either women have also been out doing the cropping getting the water etc etc um and Men seem to have found a way of saying well whatever men feel like doing even if it just even it's just playing dominoes in Greek cafes whatever men are doing is Men's Work proper with a W and

whatever women are doing is sort of what they should be doing because that's what women do right I I don't work I'm just a housewife how did men accumulate that Level of power do you think was it for was what was it why have we been so why we why have we been so duped I I don't I don't think I don't think women were duped um I think men used violence to enforce that I think there's uh I think individual men still use violence you know when we when we think I'm sure there's some

women here who' have worked in a woman's shelter and and you know you you do intake and and when you know say when did this Happen and woman would say well he didn't like dinner and and so you're thinking you have a broken jaw cuz he didn't like dinner and of course it's not about dinner it's it's him he is using violence as a tool to maintain his power which is how any system of domination has ultimately existed that's how slavery existed for so long it was a a white minority with using violence to the

threat of violence so I think it's partly through through uh violence or The threat of violence but then ideology starts kicking in really quickly um and so we have these these massive religious establishments for example and systems of belief I I I was just my dad and I who who's 97 this is a a fun project we thought let's let's read the we're Jewish read the Torah read the Bible together and and you know I don't know if you've I just rereading the story of Sodom anyone actually read that thing this is unbelievable to talk

about Hatred of women so you know I think it's Abraham who shows up in Sodom to rescue I can't remember who it is his his friend and so he goes to um the house of lot and lot is as you know takes him in and as the visitor there's this crowd that assembles outside because they want to have you know they want to basically you know uh rape Abraham because he's this you know fresh meat I guess or something like that and it's it's interesting so lot says because Abraham's his guest he says oh I

can't send you out there so he he yells out at these men basically you know he's my guest you cannot touch him but would you like my daughters you know so this stuff is so inscribed in our religious traditions this deep you know hatred of of women and just that you're just you know you're you're your F your so I didn't know I was going to get into the Bible um no no I mean I I think it's Really important because one of the things that gets debated a lot is that the the you know

it's not just the government structures that insist that power power is best held in the men in the hands of men if all the major Faith beliefs are saying basically that God is masculine then you both de democracy and spirituality are no go zones for women in terms of fully realizing themselves so you're then left with domestic in a sense and in the domestic Context you are then left with a a workload that is unbelievably significant whilst still being a situation where you're not actually the head of the household finally I mean there's lots of

laws that we all know about you know not being able to have your own bank account until recently not being able to borrow money um I still know people who have shared bank accounts with the bank manager actually really doesn't want to talk to the wife You know Etc and being able to rape your wife in marriage till 1989 Etc but the the but the the um the idea that all of these things are in place seems to have made it very difficult for women to come out on mass and protest against it I mean

I'm very aware that although the women's movement was very significant in the 70s was very significant for suffragettes and we there's a comeback now which is great I I also feel that we almost haven't taken on Lock Stock and Barrel the entirety of what Society has set out for women and how marginalized women are we just somehow are still not going there and we haven't managed to get men to understand how extreme it is and so whereas you talk about slavery and anti aparte for example I think the lines have were really shown you you

really were able to look at racism and say we know what it Looks like we know how it exists we know the consequences of it and it cannot carry on happening I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I'm simply saying it's been outed but I don't feel that misogyny and sexism has actually been out Ed fully still if we had outed it we wouldn't be voting for a pope I say we we nothing to do with it we wouldn't be in a situation where you could even allow the House of Lords to have a special

section just for Bishops who can only be male so for me in a modern 21st century situation all sitting here as we are I just feel that we are ducking the issues still and I don't know how we've managed to remain in that situation and I feel as if men good-hearted men as well as bad-hearted men are kind of going around going I hope they're not noticing I hope they're never really going to fully notice because if they did you know it' be the revolution would be unstoppable That's what it feels like and and and

you know I I think one of the reasons I mean there there there are a lot of people who don't want to give up power and they they tend to be men uh because ultimately uh feminism as far as I understand it as a pro- feminist man is not just about women entering into the institutions of power um as they exist but but transforming uh Society I mean one of the things that I think we've lost collectively um again some of You some of you will remember the original term of the women's movement in the

late 60s it wasn't it wasn't no one talked about equality it was it was talking about Liberation and I think we've lost that spirit because you know I can tell you as a man you really don't you know it's setting your sights low to think you just want to be equal to me um I mean yeah yeah you you know you you know women should I'm not saying you know obviously you know when we struggle For equal pay and equal access to institutions yes we we've got to talk about equality but you know that original

feminist inspiration of of human Liberation and I think that that I think that's terrifying to a lot of men because what what your challenge that you're you're throwing out a challenge to the to the men in this room by saying you know why aren't you able to do more think more challenge more uh to to rid out sexism and Misogyny that goes it it's it goes to the heart of who we are as men um which makes it for for you know it adds a whole other level of challenge because it's so this stuff is

so deeply embedded uh our assumptions about gender uh we we because as I was saying earlier it becomes we we take it into our developing brains and it's how we how we react to the world how we think about ourselves um uh it's it's it's such powerful stuff so it's frightening it's Frightening to so for some it's just you know giving up power but there's this other level of just it's like if as soon as we open up it's like holding up the sign oh I'm not a real man and and and what does that

mean well it means that I'm going to get beat up because because just as you talked about your early experience I can tell you that every man in this room can can remember probably the name of the gu who beat him up in you know when he was 10 or 9 or 10 or 12 Years old um this is you know these experiences are so powerful or the name of the coach who humiliated us because we weren't you know tough enough or we weren't you know whatever enough now I'm not equating that with women's experiences

because we still had power but but what I'm saying is that there's enormous fear attached to uh to change and unfortunately I think that that gets externalized uh into for into this sort of General societal hatred of of of not Just of women but of what women have stood for because how else could we justify not embracing that as all that as part of our lives but which sorry no no but which comes to to the the question that you know we were also talking earlier about this this I don't even know if it's been

around that long but I I assume it's a madeup term missry um which how many of you have heard this term we we were you know and and maybe someone Knows this cuz we were trying to figure out if this has been a it's a term that gets associated with sort of the men's rights groups the father's rights groups um the idea of of an equivalence with misogyny but it's sort of hatred of men um and and so it's it's it's interesting how that like do you let me ask you as um uh as a

feminist woman like do do you feel that there is you know among the the women you know you're um is there is there is there missry is there a Generalized hatred of men no there we have it no there's not a generalized hatred there's a there's there's a range of feelings that go from bitterness uh disappointment anger um the dismissal so there are a range of emotions um and um kind of disappointment being one of the big ones I would say uh and along with Disappointment of course is the the the other voice that goes

well I'm I'm obviously not worth enough because they haven't bothered you know and you have got to keep reinforcing the idea of no that's their fault and then you don't want to think that really because you don't want to be disappointed because you know you're in loving relationships with lots of men and not of many of your friends so so I think my experience is that most women Keep giving men the benefit of the doubt because on a personal basis you're living with them um and you think well I know why you're like that and

D um so the the occasional weapons that women can use to exert power which might be um really quite rare I mean there's that famous play you know where it Greek where women withhold sex in order to stop men going to war and I've often thought you know would we all be able to do that but you know we don't canare Enough to know whether that would be a useful thing or not um women don't have a way of collectively humiliating men I am aware that it isn't helpful for women to kind of make lots

of jokes about men all the time any more than it's helpful for women for for men to do the same and I I I've I've got less and less comfortable with sort of oh men and this and I I do feel uncomfortable about that now because it's sort of bit tit fortat and Playgroundyoutube it's always going to be like that and I don't want it to stay like that um I I don't want to suggest that because men appear not to be able to multitask say in certain contexts that that means that they are incapable

of doing it a because it's inconvenient um if you carry on thinking that but also it sort of suggests that that that's the limit and they won't go any further and that's been done to us and I don't want That so but I I can't think of an example where men would look at say videos and see themselves being sort of strangled by women or you know um carved into with knives or you know multiply raped by women I mean I I know these are things that are harder pH you know but they're not necessarily

harder women could do a lot of those things to men and and then sell them on the Internet for example but they don't do we we don't we don't and I Don't think we're planning to are we no so I think that the that when men say to me the women's movement was full of women who hated men I would say the women's movement had women who got so angry that in the end they thought you know you don't listen you don't hear you don't understand and you're not even trying I hate you well I

mean I say that to my kids you know it doesn't actually necessarily equal hate um I did but but but the the my daughter's here I love Her but but the the um but I and and of course you know if you feel like nobody's listening and nobody cares you'll say and I don't even want to share the same space with you anymore I'll go and sort this out for myself without you now I think that women want men to take on other men for them I mean this is a big thing for me now

right one of the I I often say to parents as particularly to fathers if you Endorse your daughters you can't this is a an amazing thing women need the endorsement of men they need the love of men they need the support of Men And when they see men not coming up against the bullying against women which is then hatred you just think well men don't care enough about us is that true don't you care when you're doing you know I'm not asking you to be all men and obviously your job is going around trying to

get men to care about these Things but why why is Their Fear about their own image greater than their care and compassion for us you know it's it's this I I I think it has a lot to do with with the way we pulverize boys into believing they have to live this lie and so the fear of of breaking out of that box is is very intense but you know thinking about this this this idea of of hatred of men it a couple things strike me one is if I was in a group in which

As you said you know I wasn't being listened to um uh others in my group were being you know violated on mass um put Let me let me just finish that s i mean what I'm trying to say is I don't I I'm amazed that more women don't hate men more I mean one of the incredible things the of of the the women's movement is it wasn't a movement constructed around the hatred of men it was constructed it was there was anger but yeah um you know 8,000 years a lot Of anger can build up

I would say um but when I think about this sort of hatred of men there there is a huge amount of of of hatred of men out there and it's by other men I mean you know most of I you know I hear these sort of men's rights types say oh this is a you know Miss Miss or whatever the word would be adjective would be Society you know we send off our young men to war to be kills and we you know this happens and I'm thinking Yeah who's sending them off you know this

is not women doing this is men are sending our our sons off to be killed um you know men are writing the TV shows that are making fun of men and what you know idiots and adults we are um and so you know I remember sitting around with a group of of High School principles I was doing a workshop for them once and before it started they were sitting around it was like typ this is a scene that every man here will relate to they Were sitting around talking to each other they go John where

the hell you get that suit and the other said well not the same charity shop shop you got yours and it was like back and forth put downs and one of them said about the you know his best friend he said yeah Jim's a good [ __ ] anyway later on they started talking about feminism saying the problem with feminism is they're a bunch of male haters and I said wait a minute I heard you guys talking among Yourselves and it was just like all you could do was put down each other and the the

most affectionate thing I point to the guy who said this thing about his friend Jim being a good [ __ ] I said the most affectionate thing you could say about your best friend is that he's a turd I mean who are the male haters here so I think one thing is you know um is is missing that the other thing is this false equivalence between um what happens to men and what happens to women Your experience that you that you related at the beginning um there are men who could say horrible things happen to

them absolutely but that but that sort of generalized sense of of of of harassment intimidation fear belittlement um is not part of men's experiences and that's because there's this false equivalence that that the men's rights types make uh by saying yes yes there are some uh women who hate men of course just like there's some men who Hate women but the thing is men uh women don't have social power to enforce that hatred whereas men have the power to pass the laws uh to pass the statutes to run the religions that are based on those

principles of misogyny uh so it is so different isn't it MH yeah it's just completely different and I mean you know there's a there's a I do think that power attracts um Psychopaths uh I mean I do really believe it I mean you know obviously says the artistic director of the no yeah yes it does no but I mean what I'm saying is that people who have uh Psychopathic inclination they they need a way to exert it andal isn't it time that the majority of the Own such behaviors repat I I couldn't hear you yeah

could I ask you to stop associating um extreme behaviors that you dislike you know violence for example um uh or attraction to power with um experience of mental distress and and um personality dis the use of psychopath yeah that word for example um because because the majority of really nasty stuff that goes on in the world is Actually committed by people who are sane would people who are saying was the point I was making own that okay thank you thank you but that wasn't the point I was going to make I actually was specifically saying

that I sometimes consider that people who have the personality disorder called psychopathy some of them do end up in power I was making that specific point and that you know I think that there is a general need for ownership of sexism Through to misogyny but I also think that there are some very acute moments I don't know what St Paul was like but St Paul for example seems to have taken his ability to draw power to such a specific place which includes extreme misogyny and then imp imprint it into you know a whole way of

thinking as did Hitler against Jews so I I mean that's I mean all right we won't discuss that because it's obviously you know it's a big story but what I mean is that that the the Idea of hatred the idea of hatred can attach itself to power and have an enormous effect on society's thinking which can then stay there if it's unchallenged um and the but the question which I do agree with you is on is how can ownership be acknowledged of this whole idea of sexism and misogyny how can ownership or everything you've said

about men's fear everything you've said about you know men in a way not necessarily understanding the level of Humiliation and fear and intimidation that women feel is it because they don't really believe us when we tell them what it's like m is is that why men are not mobilizing on behalf of women I mean I think part of it is that most men sadly don't listen um they're not in you know we don't have uh we we we Dev men have learned to devalue listening um that's you know because listening is is being receptive Being

receptive to the world and so I think that there sadly there's a lot of a lot of men who don't who don't listen I think it's part of what we as men need to really push and train ourselves to do um okay yeah right so let's let's now hand some microphones to the audience uh there's a woman here and there's a woman there to start I just wanted to quickly pick up on what you said about listening I think the reverse is also true that we don't talk about it enough as women I Mean recently

A friend of mine um excuse me confided in me about some sexual harassment that she'd experienced and it sparked off a chain of conversations where most of the women said oh yes I know and then came back with a story of their own and most of the men said oh my God that's terrible I've never heard it before so I think we need to bring it more into open conversation and not just it's not just about the men not listening yeah so it could be that men Aren't lay there aren't hearing enough of the number

of times that women are experiencing these things they very back yeah there what's only at the back there too have we only got one microphone okay um I just uh I wondered um what do you think the reaction would be to um in the British media and Society if the cabinet was all women because we never had it we never had a woman head of the ex jaer never had a Womane of the mod what do you think the reaction would be like is it Terror what would be the reaction if suddenly you had an

all women Parliament it just happened tomorrow yes Michael do you want to answer that question I'm going to think about it a second as we get it okay we'll gather a few questions and we'll answer them all Yes um I just wanted to ask a question about the very what I think is is a strange phenomenon of these men's group And what seems to be an incredible amount of jealousy from these men's group of women and they keep trying to sort of take arguments that women have made and try to um fit it to themselves

when it clearly doesn't fit I i' just like you to speak a bit on the Dynamics of these organizations and why you think they're popping up thank you okay can you just take the microphone to the back there sorry there's a lady right at the back been waiting from the Beginning sorry it wasn't you actually but but but it was the the one right at the end yeah yes yes have we got another microphone hi um I I'm not sure about this idea of like men not listening because I I'm more concerned about building a

movement with other women most of the time because I know that sometimes guys don't listen and I think the best way of making men listen is by building a movement within ourselves I I've heard men describe themselves as feminists they would only do that if there wasn't a feminist movement to start off with okay um should we take those sure yeah um I I think if you suddenly went to an all women Parliament I mean I don't know how you would do that but I mean if you sudden if you suddenly had women in the

cabinet and all women cabinets um I think it would force awful lot of women To suddenly rethink a lot of a lot about capitalism they they'd have to really root and Branch consider what capitalism did to the women of the world and the women of the UK because capitalism is and this is not a political point but I mean capitalism is constructed around so many power bases that are held by men and Advantage men and you'd have to rethink child care you'd have to rethink um Distribution of Labor you'd have to rethink so much so

quickly it would be like a sort of social Revolution and all to the good in my opinion because in a sense I think it's only when you have that sudden realization of what you would have to change to have an equal Society um and I think that it would be very refreshing that that's what I feel what do you think Michael yeah you know I actually think that there would be more Acceptance than we would imagine because I you know I think that there one thing people are so cynical about politics that I I think

there's a lot of men who probably say well yeah we we gave a cracket and have screwed up totally let's let them screw up for a while I don't know um so but it is about you know I I think this goes back to a comment I made about equality that equality isn't enough it's not just enough to have women in these in these Given institutions of power like I don't want to see a you know a woman woman Pope I you know I want to see no Pope I I I don't like seeing I

don't like the idea that one person or one small group should control a billion people or you know whatever it is I think it's absurd um although they have nice shoes I mean it's it's true but um those red slippers I tell you but um uh but yeah who knows um you know one of the things um I I really appreciate the comment at the Back about the the importance of the women's movement um you know I think that I I've always called myself a pro feminist man because I I I felt that it's not

to I felt the feminism is that complex thing of both an an idea about equality and transformation but also a reflection of women's experience and I might be able to support and embrace one of those but obviously the other is is not is not what my life is about as a man um but I think that that continued Challenge to men will push things forward but I think one of the things that that will push things forward and and I think you know Jud really getting at it when you're talking about what men can experience

is figure out how to change the experiences of men men and part of that has been through women's challenge part of it has been through women entering into men's spaces part of it is is just through the demands of women on men but I think part of it is Also going to be about transforming men's lives and so a lot of the work that I'm doing and one of the the the books I'm starting to work on right now is a book about fatherhood because I think that the the the transformation of fatherhood uh is

is which we're beginning to see um um uh is going to have a profound implication for the the transformation of men in general uh both in terms of redefining social priorities um work life um Relationship of you know the the as you said the the the relations of reproduction uh but just you know sort of defining what is valuable what is what is important in our lives um and that is happening I just had an amazing experience I was I went to this father's group this is not father's rights groups this is like a a

group of fathers to discuss you know their their experiences and so these were young parents and one guy was this workingclass guy I worked For a company Paving roads and he his um he's down to 80% work while his uh partner uh is on like you know this is Sweden right so she's on one year fully paid leave or something and then he's going to take off seven months so he said I went back to my hometown which is like the really conservative part of Sweden he said the Bible Belt and I told my buddies

that I was going to take off seven months and they said this is really weird and then then he said and Then they said to him why don't you just take off usual two or three months and I laughed I thought the usual two or three months this is what the conservatives say so you know it this transformation is happening and and these sort of these these um Progressive father's groups um you know the a network that I'm part of called men care is actually we you know we're starting these things they're starting in Ethiopia

in in in Rwanda in in South Africa and Vietnam uh in bellus Right now um in bellarus now there's a van that drives around from town to town to that that to to to work with fathers on being better nurturers and caregivers so I I put a lot of faith in in in not sort of just trying to change people through ideas but change them through their life experience through their actual what they do I wanted to make at your point about men's groups because obviously there's men's groups and there's men's groups if You see

what I mean there's there's the kind of work that you're doing which sounds well essential men talking men sharing with each other the issues that they're frightened about men owning up to what they're witnessing and allowing to happen um and I spoke to somebody who went on a an intense men's course which was sort of in and and I don't want to mock this I just but it involved I'm not mocking it it involved you know running In the forest putting on war paint it involved you know being naked it involved lots of things that

was to do with saying you can be a warrior you can kind of find that worry a bit that you've always been told is a sensual maless and in a way you know you can experience it and then you can if you want to have done with it but you know you you you are a man it was basically like you are a man and and you know as as a mother of a son it there is this Mysterious thing at least this is you know I see it as a mysterious thing maess there is

something maless I don't know what it is but it seems to exist in the sense that I think femaleness has a something but I don't know what it is either I just know I I am one and I'm not that I'm not a man so and of course cross-gender people are very very helpful here because they can actually discuss these different issues and what a conversation a long Conversation I had with um Anthony from Anthony the Johnson's who's transgender last year he took a course of estrogen for a long time and he said in his

opinion all seven-year-olds all seven-year-old boys should be put on estrogen for 6 months and all seveny old girls should be given testesterone and then they should discuss the differences that that had made them have I don't think that's going to happen through Michael Gove but um but it it it it is a Sort of territory that I think is also fascinating which is what is this these essential things that is male or female and then how do men and women uh get content with some of that without feeling that equals social practice do do you

know what I mean yeah it's it is so hard of course because part of it is that that that physical mystery you know if you've and and and if you you know for 98 or whatever percent of us who who 99 have inhabited One one body that this sort of gets defined as this is the male body this is the female body uh the other half remains this for me anyway as a as a predominantly heterosexual man remains this like endless history you know it's so um it is it is something quite amazing and and

and beguiling and all those things but but but we we the problem is we go beyond that and we start assuming that there's this entral divide in terms of behavior and thoughts And characteristics and and I I I just don't buy it I just think that that so many of these differences are are are created ones agree and and part of the for me the inspiration of of the women's movement is just watching my sisters I mean literally both my sisters and my sisters um just sort of you know reclaim that half of humanity that

8,000 years of patriarchy robbed them of and said no we want this to be part of who we are uh and that's that's it's it's it's that's Exhilarating and and I just hope more men can do that too there's a couple somebody there with the orange jumper yes I I'll make this quick which is just that um in some parts of the world like in in America the men's Rights Movement is quite dangerous and it's it's gaining um Power in terms of the um influencing the Republicans and influencing policy they punch above their weights online

they seem very sort of vicious and very sort Of almost so full of hate that they hate men as well as hate women you know the um and they're linked with fascist groups and there was that famous case of in Wisconsin the men's rights groups were so anti-domestic violence funding they went for that state funding and got a men's shelter defunded as well because they just didn't want any fun in for um you know for domestic violence so very I'm I'm just curious whether your organization takes them on and has any Specific you know ways

of dealing with them because as a feminist activist I have encountered them and they are quite scary okay well microphone's been there's a woman here with the wrist band can you can run down that that's one yes thank you thank you I just wanted to um talk about um the gains and losses of patriarchy because we've um rather been assuming that all men have power and that patriarchy is really good for them And not very good for women um and also uh I think we need a bit of a race class gender analys analysis in

what we're saying because Jane I really um uh felt for you in your the victim but um mentality but the fact is that um I wasn't even a desirable uh Victim Because I wasn't blonde um secondly we we talk about um uh you've talked about patriarchal religions um and perhaps forgotten about uh the pantheons where there were lots of Panthe thetic religions where there were Hinduism and so on where there were very powerful images of women and uh especially in Europe in In Living Well not living memory but a few hundred years ago we had

lots of women who were healers and spiritualists in their Villages and we had um um a sort of campaign against witchcraft which to my mind was a huge um femicide of a huge part of the population and uh akin to uh slavery and it seems to me that we have That very deep in our psyche as women if you stand up above the parit this is what happens to you and I think there are two mythologies that we need to smash this afternoon and that is that um all men are powerful because we know that

most of the power resides with very few men and that men are ideologically told they're powerful and they take it out on the nearest woman cuz they're not really they're not powerful and I think that's uh one of the myths that we need To um uh to to smash and the other one is that women stood um just rolled over and took it for all these years because I do think that women have been enormously powerful in the past and if we look at some of the other cultures and the way it's manifested in different

cultures I think we will find some of the answers rather than thinking that it's it's all bad news men have a lot to gain from the end of patriarchy as well as something to lose yeah very good Thank you and can I take the microphone over here there's somebody at the back over there could you take put your hand up at the back over there thank you the one with the red jump up right over there and while the microphone's going there do you want to take the American sure um just uh very quickly on

the on the the the men's rights activists I mean part of what those of us in the pro- feminist men um uh do I mean do take on those groups and if you could See the number of comments that don't get printed on my on my website to my blog you know the number of times I've been called a mangina and other other such things um uh anyway no no it's it's it is part of our job to to to take on to take on those men I I do I do agree they're dangerous and

you know the thing that and I appreciate the last comment because think about patriarchy it's not only a system of domination of men over over women but of some groups Of men over other men and and the the incredible thing though is because we still Define male superiority um men tend to have relative power within their group so you could be you know um uh you know absolutely poor man uh and and uh you know exploited economically but probably within your group you're going to still have more power than women um or at least be

perceived as having even if the reality may be different um and and I totally agree some men then Because we're supposed to have power will then use violence as a means to prove to himself and others that he really is a man um it's it's tyrannical I I think your point as well about um heers witches Etc there's a wonderful book I'm sure you're all familiar with it by Dale spender called man-made language which just goes through basically all the words that are demonized and then nearly so many of them are female words until women

Themselves internalize the idea that that women are silly or wrong or you know and and don't hold up for these words that had great significance and of course I understand that you know pantheism was a fantastic Force at some stage and traveling around India a lot as I have done nevertheless you know I'm very unpersuaded when I'm told in Indian Society how important it is that this you know the strength of the female Image and then I see actually how Indian women really live because it's not I don't want to be fobbed off to be

honest by you know iconography that tells me that women are powerful when the evidence is that it's not cuz Mary Magdalene is quite powerful but you know so what um over there uh hi um I just wanted to speak on the points that were made earlier about women not talking enough um I think that like like she just said About um women stepping up and then being crushed what happens in terms of sexual harassment is women who do speak are losing their job jobs or getting demoted or or getting like getting fired and losing their

income so I think women are speaking we're speaking to to each other what we don't have are the hubs or the the situations in places of work where women can actually talk to each other at work and then go as a group and and talk to someone so I don't think Women aren't talking enough I think we're just not being provided with the with the just with the provision to to be able to come together and attack the problem as a whole can can other any men here who like to say anything yes there's a

man here thank you that that yes cheers uh thanks for the was really interesting um there was just one thing that you said about Um when uh men are seeing violence against women um why don't they step in and I suppose one of the things that maybe is a factor is the fact that men don't want to come across as patronizing um in some way and I don't know if that actually resonates with how women sometimes feel but certainly you wouldn't want to step in when a woman was being spoken down to and say you

know hang on and and talk for her so I Don't know I don't know if that kind of yeah is a causal Factor there I I well there's another man over there let's let's take a couple of the time in time does a chat there you wouldn't mind running around there sorry to get you on the go three minutes to go okay I've got a couple closing things he good afternoon we saw in the last century that men were able to achieve a very great deal uh Through trade Union unism why don't the women Institute

an organization similar to a trade Union uh it it could maybe be structured along the same lines it would have the additional advantage that if the Trade union movement uh had a membership largely in factories and Industry around the country maybe because of the way that things are uh the women in the women's Trade union would not have to be Alongside those men maybe that would be a little bit of a bonus for them independent unions for women Michael do you want to take any of the points yeah now do we have to wrap up

yeah we're we're there okay um well um I'm glad other men spoke so I didn't have to speak on behalf of mankind um the um one of the things that that is for for me really you know you know is so important and and we've talked about this over the weekend is Just the in the ongoing challenge to men uh from women from the women's movement um uh from the women in our lives uh because we know that that holds out tremendous promise uh to strengthen our relationships whether it's a personal sexual relationship or work

relationship or friendship whatever it might be but also really pushing us to transform Our Lives as men and it it you know sometimes I really believe like often when I'm working with Organizations they'll say well you know we don't think the men are going to be receptive I I haven't been to a country in the world in which you know stying to talk to men about uh working or and women's groups about working to engagement and violence against women any place I've ever been people all start off by saying oh you know I know it's

easier in other countries but here it just it's not going to work I mean this is you hear this everywhere and I Really believe that men have waited their whole life men have weighed their whole life to have an opening to be able to to be invited to um uh to to embrace a different possibility uh in their life uh I remember a wonderful story if I if I could tell this about uh a colleague of mine uh who had um uh these three separate lives and um uh he was uh he was an avid

athlete and he looked like a Greek sculpture um I mean his you know his body was almost as impressive as m But no I mean this guy was he was like you know anyway he was like that um and he was also a dancer we know all the you know cliches about male dancers whether it was true or not in this case it doesn't matter and he also um uh LED men's groups uh like men's s Consciousness racing groups and until this one day these three lives were separate and it all came together in a

scary way one time at the gym he was coming back one day from the swimming Pool and to get from the pool to the locker room he had to walk by the wait room and he noticed that all the guys this was an oldfashioned weit room all the guys from the weit room were outside the wait room crowded around a notice board and they were just laughing and looking at it and then they saw him coming down the hall and it went dead quiet they just stared at him he glanced over and he saw that

on the Bolton board there was a little 8 and 1/2 by 11 or A4 Whatever it is here u a piece of paper with his picture saying you know talking about how he was leading these group for men and he was a dancer and on and on they looked at him in total silence and they re he realized he had been outed outed as this not just this jock at the gym but this man with his other life anyway he decides that this is not the day to linger around the you know Whirlpool he was

he really felt threatened so he goes in takes a quick Shower he's going to get out of there quickly when into the shower walks the king of the wait room now I don't know if you've ever hung around an old style weight room room but there was always a king who may have been the toughest may have been the meanest and roughest this guy was all of the above the king walks in turns on the water starts working soap over his body my friend is over here like turning into a prune and finally the king

turns To him and points to him and says Charlie that you on that poster because everyone at the gym knew Charlie and Charlie who as I said was no small guy himself all he could say was yeah and the King walked over to him and pointed a finger in his face and said you know something and Charlie said no I mean yeah I mean no and the King said My Life as a man has always been a rough one and he talked about how he grew up in an with an abusive father who Beat up

his mother beat him up and how he learned at a young age that to be to survive he had to be tougher and rougher and all the rest than all the other guys and he could never let down this this this Aura of toughness and roughness he could not let it down until he saw this little piece of paper that said that Charlie was someone that he would be safe talking to and with the water coming down and the steam rising up the king of the wait Room started pouring out his life story story he

had never told a soul well even though most of us men don't well I mean pres company except it don't look like the king of the waight room there's a bit of the king in all of us and I really do believe that this conversation just the fact of inviting a man to be part of wow I mean I'm I didn't say this to you before I was really quite moved by that because it's like you know it's like I get to read this diary you know Hearing these presentations and and and being being part

of you know just hearing and learning and and to be the sense that we can be drawn into this conversation together uh is is is is humbling it's exciting it's challenging um and uh uh and so I'm really I I I am moved by that but I think that there are so many men out there I think all men out there in some ways are waiting for us are desperate for us to be able to find ways to reach them and it's not Going to be easy to do that but to find ways to reach

out to them with the continued challenge that you my sisters make to us but also where possible with compassion with love where possible but also importantly for men to be reaching out to other men with with that challenge and with that compassion so I just wanted to thank you and thank you all okay I well let me add the one thing thank [Applause] You when the women's Liberation movement began as you said at the back the absolute essential ingredient was women talking to each other we had to talk to each other we had to say

we value each other we care about each other we love each other we love yourselves and from that strength you then think and now we can have some sensible conversations with men too and I think that is sort of where we're up to um so it's fair enough to say maybe men need to do a lot more Talking as you suggest to each other we need to encourage men and men need to encourage these conversations to happen with men because if men do get to the stage where they relax and love themselves for what they

could be not just what they currently are then they might turn around and be involved so you might be saying I think you might be very clearly saying actually men aren't ready to have some of these conversations with women yet because They haven't had it with themselves I don't know whether that's true or not but one of the things I think is that in WoW 14 we'll we will obviously carrying on having conversations with men and women that we're doing a masculinity Festival in 14 not really a festival a sort of a conversation anyway um

but to me just as you know it is absolutely critical to drive racism out of the world it is absolutely critical to drive sexism out of the world it's critical And uh so many instruments of uh of Cruelty are built around the principles of otherness and the power structures that go with that and I mean Michael and I don't represent Humanity I'm just a woman and you're a man and you're all men and women and you'll have your own views about all of these things so this wasn't a platform which to say you know these

are the facts just to say this is what I feel and this is what you feel but it's a conversation I just want wow To be able to have as many conversations about subjects which are difficult as possible because you know we we've got one we've got a go at it we can have a go at it and so muddled or difficult or complicated or unfinished as it all is we should keep on talking so thanks very much for this session thank you to [Applause] Michael