If all of the hostages aren't returned by Saturday at 12:00 all hell is going to break out it's called the consequences of a war and a war that that was started by Hamas on October 7th Donald Trump the other day said there's 1.9 million people in Gaza okay that's 400,000 shy of what we started with what are you guys going to do start bombing the rubble this is Biblical levels of evil when Israel does 60 times the terrorist of Hamas we should call them what they are a terrorist State and we should stop funding them
it was always about the theft of Palestinian land if Israel wanted to occupy Gaza it would be occupying Gaza right now clearly don't want to be occupying Gaza what is your reaction to Donald Trump uh and his announcement about talking to Putin America's got all the Chips here we can get Vladimir Putin to do much of what we would like him to do I think you could work at a deal where the US pulls out of NATO did not do anything to prevent this totally preventable War this week has been dominated by cries of constitutional
crisis in DC as president Trump fights the courts and emboldens Elon Musk it's worth noting in response that US foreign policy has operated without constitutional sanction For many decades and with far Graver consequences now president Trump finds himself at the Beating Heart of a genuine crisis unfolding 5,000 miles away in Gaza Hamas says Israel has violated the terms of its sear agreement and is suspending the release of hostages president Trump has given Netanyahu the green light to cancel the deal Al together if hostages are not returned as planned on Saturday I'm speaking for myself Israel
can override It but from myself Saturday at 12:00 and if they're not if they're not here all hell is going to break out well Arab states are still reeling from Trump's claim that Palestinian should be resettled in Egypt and Jordan of the US owning and rebuilding Gaza as a middle eastern Riviera they've all fiercely refused that proposal just as they've long refused to take in Palestinian refugees but Jordan's King Abdullah struck a different turn on his visit to The White House this week pledging to take in 2,000 sick children from Gaza and hailing Trump as
a peacemaking Visionary Mr President I I truly believe that with all the challenges that we have in the Middle East that I finally see somebody that can take us across the Finish Line to bring stability peace um and prosperity to all of us in the region so is Trump successfully bluffing to get deals done and then claim credit for a ceasefire Reprieve or is he running The Reckless risk of eventually needing a bite to match his bark We join me to debate all this is Chen yuger the host and founder of The Young Turks the
commentator and author baa un Sagen Dave Smith host of part of the problem and the actor and commentator Dean Kane well welcome to all of you um chck Yuga I mean look Trump's literally ignited uh a ferocious Firestorm of debate with this Gaza Riviera plan um as with so many things That Trump does the immediate response I would have is well what does he really want here and I suspect what he really wants is for the leaders of Arab countries in the Middle East to step up and come up with a workable plan that actually
gets things sorted because Trump's right nothing else has worked yeah Trump is not write about one thing here his plan is obviously asinine we all can acknowledge that it has no chance of success it's Ridiculous uh but more importantly why is he doing it can we be honest here I know in mainstream media and cable news you can't say this can we say this here it's obviously because of his donors right I mean Miriam Adon gave him that adelon family o over three elections gave him $337 million heret reported that she wanted portions of the
West Bank and Gaza strips annexed so why is Trump saying we're going to own it he's trying to trick Maga into thinking After we let the Israelis Slaughter more Palestinians as they try to push two million people out of their homes and their Homeland and after we finance that Slaughter which we're definitely going to finance because Trump and to be fair to Trump all the almost all the Democrats all of Washington is owned by Israel n who dog walked Trump around the park made him look like a waiter as he was putting his chair in
so we're going to pay for all that Slaughter and then Trump goes oh don't worry because we're going to own it later we're not going to own anything you think Israel is going to give it back to us no they're going to steal that land this was never about self-defense we were right all along it was always about the theft of Palestinian Land We Told You So all right back to you your response um I think that there's a really important point to be made here which is that um no Palestinians have been Allowed to
flee this war zone because of course Israel was not going to let in um civilians from Gaza who may have Hamas members hiding amongst them but also Egypt did not allow almost a single Palestinian to exit the Gaza Strip Trump has been very clear that what he imagines here rightly or wrongly is the voluntary resettlement of Palestinians who wish to leave Gaza now I know a lot of Palestinians who would rather live in the rubble than leave their Homeland and I respect that but 40% of gazin before this war were either employed by Hamas by
the public sector or by unra or by jobs in Israel none of those streams of Revenue are going to exist now and so the question I think we need to be asking is this does the International Community owe it to the people of Gaza to cons to continue subsidizing their living in Gaza under Hamas rule because that is essentially what has been happening until now now of Course I do not support any sort of forceful removal of anybody from their Homeland but I don't think that's what Trump is imagining it was very clear from the
Press conference that there's going to be this meeting in Riad between the Saudis between the jordanians and between the Egyptians all of whom have done nothing to help the Palestinians forever and so I think this question becomes who owes who what and that's really what Trump is trying to introduce Here is A New Path forward Dave Smith you said about the plan I called it insane ethnic cleansing and the worst proposal a president can make but if what it achieves is it gets everybody in a room actually properly debating a solution to all this isn't
it a means to an end well um I you know I guess you could say that about anything like if he doesn't come through on what he's saying he's going to do and then something else Better comes out of it perhaps but it look it doesn't the plan itself doesn't make any sense I don't think baa is right to say that it was clear that this is going to be voluntary I mean at at best that was unclear the only thing that Trump made Crystal Clear is that they would not be allowed back in he
said that explicitly in the interview with with Brett Bayer and the the problem even I think pierce with the idea which a lot of trump supporters and I voted for him in this election but a lot of trump supporters are saying oh this is just a trump negotiating tactic the the problem with that angle is that it doesn't even make sense as a negotiating tactic I mean who are you putting pressure on here like the idea is you would have to in order to have a negotiating tactic here you would have to be putting some
pressure on Israel I mean the the idea that we're going to put more pressure on the people of Gaza I think they've felt quite enough pressure over the last nearly year and a half now and many decades before that but this is just so even just to float this out as a starting point in a negotiation is so outrageous I the idea that Israel breaks it and then we buy it after Israel as we all know on this panel has used their significant influence like even if you don't want to go quite as far as
Jen and say that you know the politicians in America are Owned by Israel although he's got an argument there um Israel has used their significant influence to push America into the entire Terror Wars of the last 25 years and Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli War cabinet has still been trying to pressure us to fight a war with Iran another catastrophic war in the Middle East this is what these guys want and now we're responsible for cleaning up their mess it it's an outrage it is the uh antithesis of America First and the antithesis of the
spirit in which so many people the reason why so many people supported Donald Trump a break from the permanent war party PE Morgan uncensored is now proudly independent if you like the show we ask for only one thing subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan uncensored on Spotify and apple podcast now let's get straight to the point support for today's show comes from a Business focused on a critical issue Prosperity US national debt is at crisis levels inflation has made life more expensive for everybody and the stock market is precarious it's enough to make anyone's
financial future feel Grim so what is the solution well a simple one is to opt out of the chaos and invest in something solid and reliable physical gold and silver and there's only one name you need to remember American Heart for gold this company has owned the Trust of thousands of customers with an A+ rating from the Better Business Bureau and glowing reviews you can see for yourself they offer an incredible range of gold and silver bars and coins they can be delivered directly to your door or they'll help you set them up in a
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show okay before I go to Dean just just one more thing Dave on this which is Trump's position is look all right give me a better option in other words if it's not America that rebuilds flattened Northern Gaza which is clearly uninhabitable to families right now right if it's not if it's not America does it who does it um well I mean that I mean look the if we want to try something new what we could try is not giving Israel unconditional support and arming and financing but that's not my question my Question is who
actually who is going to rebuild Gaza I can answer it Pi okay well the responsibility ought to be on Israel yeah okay CH yeah so uh as you know appears from day one what I said was Israel should use special forces this bombing of indiscriminate bombing of the buildings was outrageous it was always meant to level it hold on so then what I said after that appear if you remember is you should do a deal with uh the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank uh to give the occupied territories uh back to the Palestinians where
it belongs and have a two-state solution that we've always fought for and that way they would have the uh Authority and The credibility to be able to push Hamas out of the Gaz that isra to do the US doesn't have to do it yeah I know I know I'm getting to it and so then I know Israel would never pay for anything they'd try to make us pay for it pay for all their bills so You can't you so then you go to the Arab countries United Arab Emirates Qatar Saudi Arabia and you say oh
my God we got a deal we got a two-state solution the Palestinians are going to finally have a Homeland now you guys pay for the rebuilding I guarantee you that they do that that is an easy solution the only thing blocking that solution that way America doesn't pay anything there's no more killing there's peace the only ones blocking that are Israel because they Don't want two states they want to steal Gaza and now they just said it they they want it steal but the other people there's no question about it ch ch this all sounds
utopian and so easy except that of course you've still got a large Hamas presence as we see with the release of all these hostages We Believe from American intelligence that for every Hamas terrorist has been killed they've already been replaced the ideology may have anything have been Fueled and that ideology is committed to the destruction of all things Israel so this this Blissful Utopia picture you're painting it Bears no relation to reality notop super simple no no no no no first of all peers you leave it to the Palestinians that's why I'm saying do the
deal with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank you leave it to the Palestinians to drive Hamas out so that's their internal business but in order to do that you have to have a deal For a two-state solution and you make the uh Middle Eastern countries the Arab countries that have always said that they want an independent Palestine pay for rebuilding Palestine it makes perfect sense the all and and if you it does right to the point okay look you had me you have me right to the point you say you go say it won't
work you're going to the same talking point about how Palestinians are always going to be terrorists that's a ridiculous racist Israeli propaganda no I don't think that at all but I think the idea that the Palestinian Authority will simply go bang and Hamas disappear forget it um Dean Kane let me bring you in here You' be it's not simple but yeah of course that's what you do and they might be brutal about it but that's palan business American Business youve got a guy in his 80s running the Palestinian Authority right I do not entrust him
frankly with all due respect To run Hamas out of town anyway let me bring I'm giving you a perfectly viable solution all right perfectly viable and you're and you're coming out with excuses because Israel wants Gaza be honest I'm not coming out with any exus admit that Israel clearly clearly wants to steal Gaza isn't that wasn't that the of self defense let me ask you I certainly believe there are people in netanyahu's cabinet uh benav smri and others who absolutely would like that That's been my problem with this for a long time uh let me
bring in and bring Dean Kane to be waiting patiently I mean dean look you know a lot of people outraged as as always by what Trump has suggested but is there Merit to his apparent Madness absolutely 100% look what we're just feeling to talk about here is October 7th you know you and I'll quote Doug this Mur here you don't get to start a war and then complain when you Lose it and there are consequences to losing it and Hamas needs to be absolutely driven out and and and and ended in in Gaza that's that's
unequivocal otherwise they're going to completely keep going with the same Circle teaching people through unra and and the schooling there that israels are drink Israelis are drinking your blood etc etc etc they're fomenting this we're paying for half of this stuff the US Aid and the other things that are going on It's ridiculous I think is is has every right to step up I think president Trump has made it clear that he's going to back them 100% unlike this last Administration and I think we'll actually see something really happened in this in this in this
area I the problem but the problem the problem seems to me is there is there is no real evidence that Hamas have been defeated in fact if anything these propaganda videos they're showing with the hostages There seem to be a lot of Hamas and a lot of support for Hamas uh for the certainly in in the early ones um and and I think that would be very I can't believe they don't love Israel well no but this has been my problem 62,000 people there yeah but just go back they don't love Israel that's so shocking
well hang on I'm gonna go back to yeah would you love your oppressors I I wouldn't love people who murdered my Family there you sound like sound like one of the is wrong the Palestinians didn't start this war Israel started it with the occupation you don't get to occupy Texas for 57 years and if Texas fights back go oh look at the terrorists in Texas they started the war no Israel definitively started a war America first I'm tired of him Israel first Israel first give them $300 billion dollar pay for their genocides get out of
there America First and let these poor people Palestinians go the one problem is Israel and their infinite Greed for land land land and Slaughter so just to be clear everybody knows just to be clear CH because you're going a bit further than you had before just to be clear you think October the 7th was an inevitable consequence of the way the Palestinian people have been treated guys I hate October 7th when Hamas does violence they they do so much damage to the Palestinians and the Muslims so but two things can be true at the same
time you could have something awful and then you could use your brain to figure out hey why did that happen and does anyone think that any American wouldn't fight back if they were occupied and humiliated and their land stolen and their families bullied and harassed and humiliated for 57 straight years of course we would fight back of course any set of human beings would fight back but when Israel oppresses Them and uses their might of their giant military to crush them that's not terrorism but if Palestinians fight back terrorists it's absurd it's propaganda it's both
terrorism so yes the Hamas doing terrorism is Despicable and when Israel does 60 times the terrorism of Hamas we should call them what they are a terrorist State and we should stop funding them don't send our taxpayer money to go fund terrorist government of Israel all right Bia your Response um I just want to talk about this idea of Israel uh owning the United States government because it seems to me that people who make that argument want to have it both ways on the one hand we give Israel exorbitant amounts of money and on the
other hand somehow control us through the money that we give them and it's never been clear to me like what do they use for that control so so people will say ape but ape spends about $3 million on local races in America on Congressional races it's not a lot of money number one the Israel the number one they're literally the American people is the fact that Americans are supportive of Israel it's like the way that the NRA was pop when it was because Americans like their guns these lobbyists are they are powerful to the extent
that they reflect views that the American people already have and I think that's a really Important point to point out here because you cannot take an unpopular View and just use money in order to push it and nothing has proven that like this last election cycle Nikki Haley Nikki Haley outspent Donald Trump 2 to one kamla Harris out spent Donald Trump 2 to one money in politics has been revealed to be nothing compared to the will of the American people this is an amazing thing I mean I was as a lefty I was really against
Citizens United and it Turns out actually the American electorate has a very clear idea of what it wants if you look at Donald Trump's cabinet every single person in that cabinet which is by the way the most diverse ideological cabinet in American history they all have a very similar view of what it means to be America First there's only one thing that they all share and they all seem to think that having a pro-israel point of view is very much inherent in the America First ideology because Israel is a good Ally Israel brings a lot
to the table we get a lot more bang for our buck in fact I think Israel should stop taking aid from the United States because I think Israel has paid a much higher price for in terms of its sovereignty it has been bad for Israel to take all this money because it means that the Americans can tell them what to do and they shouldn't accept that they should be Sovereign Nations I'll just make one more quick Point sovereignty is not something you can give somebody it's not a gift you can give to another Nation I
feel for the Palestinian people but the idea that somehow Israel which want its sovereignty through winning wars owes them something in the form of a sovereign state this is just ridiculous like this doesn't actually make any sense shank you said who should rebuild Gaza you said the Arab Nations should rebuild Gaza in exchange for the Two-state solution but what Trump is about to do is get a deal in which they rebuild Gaza without actually having to have a two-state solution so he's actually sort of a little bit ahead of the game in the way that
he often turns out to be okay let me bring in uh no do you know how unrealistic that is you think Saudi Arabia is going to pay for Israel to occupy Gaza nobody's going to pay no think Israel wants to occupy Gaza at all not that big a sucker if Israel Wanted to occupy Gaza it would be occupying Gaza right now clearly doesn't want to be occupying Gaza none of them will why why shank according to you why is Israel not currently occupying Gaza if they want it so badly because they're waiting for America to
give them permission they were waiting for this election that's why they supported Trump so kamla Harris and Joe Biden were terrible on this issue they gave Israel everything they Wanted but they but Netanyahu to deal with Trump and it became obvious to me that the reason for that was just Trump was going to give them even more which is just to let them grab this land in Gaza which is going to cause a massive conflict and guess who's going to pay for it we're all going to pay for it let bring come on you know
the donors control things the drug companies are deeply unpopular and they win every time in Congress they buy our Congress and so Does Israel make the point let me bring in Dave Smith Dave the immediate big picture here is that uh there's been you know a big uh fracturing of the agreement in terms of releasing hostages Hamas and so on and it's now coming to aead on Saturday where Trump says if they don't release all of the hostages by Saturday uh midday I think he said then all hell will break loose supposed to be three
hostages being released Netanyahu now no longer says three but Doesn't give an actual number he just says uh many I think um you got three different positions here um either way it feels like a very precarious moment in this process what do you make of it yeah well I mean I I certainly agree it's a it's a a precarious moment um you know it there was a good piece in the New York Times um about this I mean where even um some Israeli officials were admitting that they haven't held up their end of the ceasefire
either um There's been a bunch of Palestinians killed uh during this ceasefire um you know the problem here I think with Trump's negotiating posture is that again it's just all the pressure is just he's just trying to put more pressure on Hamas and on Gaza but there's two parties here and I think at the very least people could acknowledge that like there has to be some pressure on both of them and and this is what you know I just want to respond to a couple of the Things Bacha was saying because there actually was really
interesting news that you was broke on your show here Pierce if you remember back um a few weeks ago when you hosted a debate between uh Wesley Clark and Scott Horton and fourstar General Wesley Clark who's probably most famous for his seven countries in 5 years um comment that he had seen that this plan was all he revealed very casually on your show that actually he had seen these plans back in 1991 and you know where they came from they came from Paul Wolowitz and he said this was sanctioned by Israel that Israel under George
HW Bush's administration had the plan to topple all of these governments this is a decade before 911 and then of course they lost the election the plan got um re reignited when George W bush took over but to bia's point there was no there was no ground swelling of support from the American people to overthrow Momar Gaddafi or to start a civil war in Syria or to or even to overthrow Saddam Hussein this was totally a topown move largely by uh done by Israeli influence and so it's just not the case that what's popular is
always going to rise to the top and that politics and business have no influence on this and I'm not a lefty I'm not like I don't care about getting money out of politics I care about getting politics out of money I want to see the size and scope Of the government drastically reduced so it doesn't even really matter who owns the thing and I I think Elon and Trump are doing a great job on that front or at least starting to but you know this is just the the idea of what we're gonna look pierce
the thing that's kind of frustrating here right is that I sit here on your show six months ago eight months ago and I say you're never going to be able to get rid Hamas you're just going to get more Hamas or Hamas like Groups do this and then we and then we turn around and then all the pro-israel you know are people they just act like that point never happened and we just move on to whatever the next like topic is but what are you guys going to do start bombing the rubble I mean like
for God's sakes like have a little bit of humanity the numbers look Donald Trump by the way I think Jen is wrong when he's floating out you know remember all those months where on this show people Would always argue whether you can trust the the ministry of Health's numbers or not that argument over it's way higher than what they were estimating Donald Trump the other day said there's 1.9 million people in Gaza okay that's 400,000 shy of what we started with I'm not claiming to know what the exact numbers are but this is just so
I mean like on any this is biblical levels of evil you're just going to start bombing these people Again and think that's going to solve the problem yeah I mean look I think these are very valid questions I've been saying for many months what's the plan for the end of this because it seemed to me there was no actual evidence that the ideology was being uh removed whatsoever in fact quite the opposite it looked like support for Hamas was growing uh in Gaza because of the scale of the of the retribution uh from uh Israel
for October the 7th Dean I mean my question For you would be just on a human level if you were suddenly told along with your entire neighborhood uh right you've all got to leave right and you can't come back instinctively on a human level You' be like sorry what no this is my home I'm not going anywhere um and even if that's if they told me that if they told me that at a sort of a blank slate but if people had done what happened on October 7th and then you get removed from that area
I don't know how much you Can complain and when they're pushing that but why should but why should two million people be punished for the actions of 50,000 people in Hamas well what is the what is the uh percent of support for Hamas within the within the gods of it's hard to gauge what it really is because rather like in Russia and other places when you have a controlling body in a country who ruled by fear and violence and intimidation and murder then often people are not Going to be honest in polling right so we
don't really know I mean I've seen enough scenes there's a lot of support but I think to punish to collectively punish two million people which is what is going on here under this plan that seems to me to be almost the embodiment of ethnic cleansing isn't it I mean if you if you're forcing them against will to leave their homes and not allow them back that is by the definition of the phrase ethnic Cleansing well it's it's not a genocide and it's not ethnic cleansing there are plenty of Arab um Jews or non-jews in inside
of Israel it's that it's Hamas it's that IDE there voluntarily hang on hang on they're there they're there voluntarily the point about ethnic cleansing is where a group of people are removed from a place uh where they live against their wishes that is called Ethnic Cleansing it's called the consequences Of a war and a war there that was started by Hamas on October 7th period you do that let me tell you what Piers anybody on this panel if your kid was one among those that were taken hostage and pulled across what would you do to
get him back I would do anything yeah but I would I agree with I agree with you what would you do why don't we ever apply that to the other side get your point I would I would do anything but what About the Palestinian children who have died in such greater number so much more oppressed but but quit putting you know um rockets and things in schools quit putting I mean there's no question what Hamas is doing by by burying all their things right in the schoolyards right in the churches right in the mosques wherever
it is in in areas they do that and then what do you do how do you how do you respond to that at a certain point in time SE pictures you SE the Pictures of Gaza are you telling me there was Hamas there were Hamas missiles in every single one of those buildings that that's the entirety of the story is that Israel just had to blow up this building which by the way still I don't think would be morally Justified but like come on man look like it's just again even to Dean's point I always
find this fascinating because somehow Americans could say this about the people in Hamas and go like you know Like you said yeah I wouldn't like to be kicked out of my neighborhood but if my if my government had done October 7th I'd accept it your government Dean destroyed Iraq Afghanistan Libya Syria Somalia Yemen the Drone bombing campaign in Pakistan so like what are can you get kicked out of your house now is it not ethnic cleansing if we were to kick you out of your neighborhood this is so ridiculous that we impose these standards on
these poor people that we Would never dream of holding ourselves to that standard it's just it logically makes absolutely no sense and it doesn't really matter what hamas's approval rating is in the same way that it doesn't matter George W bush had record high approval ratings that doesn't mean that the innocent civilians in the United States of America are fair game and neither should any other group of civilians okay bti your response can I just jump in for a second I feel a Little bit like Dave I appreciate what you're saying but I feel a
little bit like you're try have it both ways on the one hand you're saying you know Hamas is an ideology will never be defeated you know Aro there is this sort of WID spread support for it you know on the other hand you're asking Israel to live side by side and treat the population of Gaza as innocent now I happen to agree with the latter I think Hamas is I don't understand why everybody keeps saying That they're so popular the latest polling have shown Hamas support is down to 20% I've even seen polls at 7%
because the people of Gaza the innocent people of Gaza understand who brought this upon them Hamas is much more popular right now in the West Bank than it is in Gaza because people in the West Bank have not had to well a little bit they've had to Bear the the cost of of what happened on October 7th but mostly it's been the people in Gaza and I think That to ignore the historic unpopularity of Hamas is is is truly criminal it's to suggest that we cannot imagine a life for the Palestinians in Gaza in their
Homeland not living under the brutal regime of Hamas Hamas is only able to attack Israel in a very limited way you know October 7th was not some Act of like unbelievable genius they broke a goddamn fence because Israel wasn't looking at the fence right it was like the most easy obvious stupid thing right When actually right now hamas's ability to actually kill Israelis is going to be back to what it was before October 7th which is very very minimal this is not like an unbelievably sophisticated group here and what I don't understand is why do
we think it is compassion to the Palestinians to um to to sentence them to live under a brutal dictatorship that murders and tortures and steals food from its own people and I'm not saying that we should have some sort of you Know plan here for regime change or whatnot but I'm saying that there seems to be this weird view that the primary victims of Hamas are Israelis and they are not they are the people of Gaza and again Pierce I don't think the question is one of ethnic cleansing because Trump you're right Dave he did
say they can't go back but he also then very quickly said they're not going to want to he is picturing a situation in which young Gins are given an opportunity to leave And seek a life elsewhere an option a choice which they have not been given ever before and the question is should they be given that choice or should they be subsidized by the International Community to continue living under the brutal terrorist hang on hang on look there's a lot to unpack there but the the immediate problem is none of the Arab states want to
do this so this plan is not going to go anywhere because none of them are prepared to take in 2 Million Palestinian refugees least of all always say that when Trump starts a negotiation no one's going to do this look at what he achieved Pierce over the last three weeks with tariffs he got everything he wanted every single time AIG hang can respond there's a very big difference between tarff and 2 million refugees listen the the idea to even make the comparison of Mexico or Canada sending 10,000 troops to their border and compare that to
Jordan or Egypt Taking in a million refugees each is just I mean they view this as an existential threat to their regime and there's lots of historical reasons for that um but like there's just no comparison between getting that concession and getting this one but I I think budet like I I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying I'm not saying Hamas could never be defeated I'm not saying that the Palestinians are sentenced to live under Hamas forever I Don't think it's it's our job to determine who their government is if we wanted to use that
justification we could justify having regime change in the majority of governments around the world the point is that I'm saying Hamas cannot be defeated like this or at least a similar ideology you'll either have Hamas or a Hamas likee group as I've said on the show before this is um um General m mistal not a Libertarian Dove like me it was he's the one who coined The term Insurgent math what 10 minus 2 20 the more you keep doing this everybody every time you kill a little girl they had a father and a brother and
an uncle and you just get more people so Hamas might be less powerful because or less popular excuse me because they have been unable to protect their people but they'll be just just be looking for the next most gangster protector that they Dave okaying has shown that support for support for the two-state solution In Gaza has grown since October 7th by Leaps and Bounds like the exact opposite of that no no it's not not all what I'm saying now let me say to your other point and I don't even think you realize you did this
but you just gave the whole game away like you just totally gave away any justification Israel has for this when you say October 7th wasn't some genius thing we just weren't looking at the wall we could just look at the wall you know I think I think Pierce A lot of times in in as I've watched so many debates on on your show about this over the last year people argue the number of people who are dead people argue the civilian to combatant ratio all of this is irrelevant okay okay when you look at the
unimaginable amount of profound human suffering that Israel has inflicted on Gaza over the last year plus the only relevant question is do you absolutely have to do this is there any alternative Well also I would say if there's not if that's not the case if you're saying we could just keep our eye on that wall then you have absolutely no excuse to see I would I would say I would say what hang hang on hang hang some you have to destroy them the fact that hang I just want to respond to that because you know
we we've done a lot of debates like you say uh I mean most of us have been debating this all year on this show um here's what I was saying That from the from like two maybe two three weeks in I began asking two questions repeatedly what what is a proportionate response and what is the what is the end game and in other words what happens when this is over and nobody really on the Israeli side ever had a real answer for this right and it seems to me that the scale of a response given
that Hamas if the mission was to eradicate Hamas that has simply not happened so that has not been achieved So the the victory that Netanyahu wanted which was the elimination of aass I don't think anybody would argue that that has been achieved and so we are where we are with that secondly there's no question that in terms of the plan for the end of this there wasn't one right that's why Trump has come up with this idea here because nobody else has come up with a plan which makes any sense to him you know the
the Arab countries do not really want to get Involved in rebuilding Gaza or taking in any uh refugees they expect America to pick up the bill for this and to do it do it themselves Trump says fine but if we're going to do that it'll take a year two years who who knows three years I mean Gods has been destroyed what happens to these people in the meantime it's uninhabitable for anyone with families he's right about that where do they go what do they do and he offering one solution which they're all saying is Ridiculous
well okay what's the other one and that seems to me to be where we've got to where the mission cannot be categorized as a victory when you've got this level of Civilian death and the people you were trying to eradicate are still there in large numbers and the ideology has not been dismantled in fact it's probably been fueled then I'm not sure what kind of Victory it feels a very pic Victory I mean chck let me bring you in here it just feels to me Like a very peric victory that is very likely to blow
up in Israel's face because they've simply gone too far yeah so Piers as you know and I just did it again today I'm a rare person who keeps offering a constructive solution and that solution has the Arab states paying instead of America paying it has the Palestinians taking care of their own country instead of us taking care of it or Israel taking care of it so and and it checks off all those boxes and I Want you guys to understand how practical it is because often times pieces shown as impossible or impractical but Israel actually
already did this we have a model for it their peace deal with Egypt and so at the time everybody said oh you can't work with Egypt they attacked Israel twice and they did they organized all the Arab nations against Israel twice Egypt is the worst of the worst they'll always attack Israel well those folks who said That were wrong Egypt never attacked Israel again it's been a stalwart Ally and the peace deal worked and then people said well okay we're condemning the Egyptians to live under Mubarak and and military rule Etc but that's Egypt's business
that's not our business so let the Palestinians handle their own business and and peers you said there's never been a plan here no there's always been a plan they just didn't want to say it in public because they're pretending That this was about self-defense October 7th happened 15 months ago I mean they've destroyed almost every building in Gaza the plan is obvious and they're now finally announcing it which is that Israel's going to take it that's why they never had realistic ceasefire proposals that's why they never drove towards peace that's why they never want the
two-state solution because they want one state Israel from The River To The Sea and nyaho is literally said from The River To The Sea we're going to have all of it so we're all pretending that Israel doesn't want to take this land when that's been their intent all along and why are we pretending that because APAC was the number one donor in politics in this election cycle Donald Trump's gotten 337 million but Biden got 11 million from APAC KLA Harris Got 5 million from Israeli Lobby in this campaign so Washington DC is occupied territory that
is why we're not getting To the obvious America first answer which would also make the Palestinians happy and get peace for Israel and get a safe Jewish Haven which we all want for Israel and would stop this madness but we've got to actually go towards the actual practical solution which is peace and a two- stat ution and the people blocking that are Netanyahu and his far right ridiculous government in Israel and Dave is right you put pressure on the people blocking the deal which is Netanyahu and Israel the people in Gaza have almost no power
at all the people with nearly INF my guess is my guess my guess is that the Arab Nations will say right we will let America rebuild Gaza the Palestinian people will not be all forced out the ones who want to stay will be able to stay uh but that has to be as part of a two-state solution pathway that is specifically laid out and has a timeline I suspect that may be how this ends up um anyway we'll see I Want to just change uh to another War briefly um and let me start with you
Dean on this one this is Ukraine Donald Trump has revealed he's had a very productive call with Vladimir Putin uh he said we talked about the strength of our respective Nations and the great benefit will someday work together but first we want to stop the millions of deaths taking place in the war with Russia and Ukraine President Putin even used my strong campaign motto of Common Sense we both believe in it strongly adding they've agreed to start negotiations immediately and that he will notify Ukrainian President Vladimir zalinski of the conversation and that apparently is going
to happen imminently so there's movement there I interviewed president zalinski uh last week and it was clear that he also is prepared to sit around a negotiating table and try and resolve this but what is your reactions of Donald Trump and his Announcement about talking to Putin I he should talk to both sides I I'm all for that 100% but I say that u under with with President Trump's leadership that that war in Ukraine will be over for the end of this calendar year and I think that's what everybody wants since what president Trump has
said himself he like I want to stop the killing I want to stop people from dying and and that War I believe wholeheartedly will be done by the end Of this of this year whatever the concessions are I I don't know um but but it's going to be done and and people will stop dying and that'll be a conflict that that is we've needed to end there's so many people who have been killed there and I'd be I'll be celebrating when it is over and it will be over by the end of this year da
Smith you know my my concern with this is that the only way I can conceivably see this getting Resolved anytime soon is that Vladimir Putin gets to keep what he's taken as he did with Crimea I just don't see that the ukrainians have enough strength or enough resolve from people like the United States now uh to continue the battle that and so we're left with where we are on Geographic lines which means Putin really you know he wins doesn't he he takes what he's taken again well I mean I I don't know look I get
I certainly get your point and I Think that we are um Can there are constraints to reality and you know look I mean even like I I me and uh Jen as we've been talking about this uh situation in Israel I mean both of us would probably agree that it certainly wasn't legitimate the way the state of Israel was formed to begin with and there was a whole lot of ethnic cleansing that went on then but neither of us are arguing we're saying the Palestinians should have their land in Gaza and the West Bank neither
of us are saying like you got it you know what I mean like T because at a certain point in time you just have to deal with the reality of the situation people living that this what you know there is no practical way to force Vladimir Putin out of the areas that he's taken short of the US military rolling in and having a direct confrontation with Russia and I just don't think that any of us are willing to do that so that the donbass Region is ruled by Kiev rather than Moscow that's just not I'm
sorry that's not worth the cost of a total war between America and Russia I hope Dean is right I think this is um a um an incredible improvement from the previous administration and their rhetoric and their Strat y there and um I give a lot of credit to Pete Pete Heth who also um you know just just recently said some great things on this issue that NATO won't be involved look I I know that me And you don't agree on this Pierce but I'm with Scott Horton and John mimer on this I think that us
uh foreign policy and particularly NATO enlargement color-coded revolutions I think we did a lot to provoke this conflict and I think that much like Israel in the Middle East look America's got all the chips here really when it comes down to it we can get Vladimir Putin to do much of what we would like him to do I would like to see Trump follow through on one of his Previous ideas that we I think the only chance of actually getting all that Ukrainian territory short of Crimea you're not getting Crimea but the rest of the
territory I think you could work at a deal where the US pulls out of NATO and Donald Trump said it before why on Earth are we subsidizing the defense of Rich European countries because we worked at this agreement when they were in ashes after World War II to prevent against the Soviet Union well they're Not in ashes anymore the Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore there's no reason why America needs to subsidize the defense of other rich countries so look I think this is a huge Improvement there probably is room for improvement even from there and
I don't know I'm not quite as confident as Dean but I really do hope that this this war comes to an end in The Killing yeah I mean look the reason we disagree is I wouldn't trust Putin as far as I could throw him and I Think he's he's he deep he deeply regrets the Soviet Union ever got broken up and he would love to get it all restored he sees himself as a modern day Zar is my opin but Pi if he can't if he only he couldn't even take Kev so what do you
think he's rolling on PO I'm not saying I trust him he'll end up he'll end up with a third of Ukraine to go with Crimea right and I just wouldn't trust him I think that he will try and come again for more of Ukraine and uh We'll see history will prove one of us right about this I just don't trust him and think he is a ruthless Russian dictator and I think he's used the the excuse of NATO encroachment when in fact the reason NATO had to be encroached was precisely because of what he's done
in Ukraine so it depends which who you really want to believe most here um baty let me bring you in I mean it seem to me whatever people think of this Donald Trump once Again as he's shown since he became president again he steamed in here utterly determined to get this resolved very quickly and he is indisputably a man of Peace he does not believe in war he he thinks war is bad business it's bad for dead bodies and bad for money that gets wasted I mean that's an unusual thing with an American president you
know sitting here in London right now I'm like this is good to have an American president who doesn't like War Hallelujah exactly and first of all utterly delicious for once to be on the same side as Dave of an argument um I think United States should immediately withdraw from NATO I just want to push back on one thing you said by sorry on that wait a minute wait a minute that would be a catastrophy and I'll tell you why Russia has 6,000 nuclear weapons America has a few less America with Europe has a little bit
more than Russia that's why NATO has to stay intact you Have to have a strong but but but where Trump was right but where Trump was right is that all the member countries have to pay their way it was completely scandalous they weren't even paying their minimum Jews and guess what most of them now are right and the ones who aren't will soon be bounced out if they're not careful so Trump was right I don't think he wants to dismantle NATO because he understands that NATO collectively actually is more powerful Than Russia if you dismantle
it neither America nor Europe Europe as an entity or America would have the same Firepower nuclear as Russia that's why it has to first of all that that acknowledgment was bought in blood right Donald Trump was mercilessly booed and mocked for suggesting that 10 years but by many many many people so first of all acknowledging that that acknowledgement was hard one glad and he's right now second of all what I would say is you Know when the war in Ukraine started the donbas region was not part of Ukraine it was an independent republic of donet
and luhansk there was a civil war undergoing at that exact time and in fact the residents of Donetsk and the residents of luhansk were blaming Putin for abandoning them and not invading and coming to protect them from the Neo-Nazi as they called it Ukrainian regime but that's not true only 10% hang on that's not true there was a civil war in the Region only 10% of those PED in that region wanted to be part of Russia 10% 90% did not that was not true in 2014 and 2015 During the maidan Revolution that was true after
Putin invaded I agree with you then that the war itself was very unifying in Ukraine but at the day that that war started there was a civil war going on there and that area was an independent republic two weeks into the war Putin laid down three conditions for immediately withdrawing Troops from Ukraine number one Ukraine will not be part of NATO number two the the area the donbas those th that region that was under Civil War would be remain independent right that was the second condition and the third condition that he laid out was that
Crimea would remain part of Russia guess what the war is about to end along those three conditions but the people like me and Dave who pointed this out when Putin laid that down were called Russian Stooges a million young men ago a million young men were were still alive when we were saying all Putin is asking for is a ratification of the status quo and you won't give it to him and now all these people are dead that's not to say that the deaths are not at Putin's feet they are but I agree with Dave
I think we did not do anything to prevent this totally preventable War okay I couldn't disagree more with that analysis but I appreciate the way you conveyed it uh Chen final word to you briefly if you don't mind yeah so uh I'm going to be consistent here we need to get to peace uh and bayen and Boris Johnson in this case did great damage to the cause of Peace uh they pushed the ukrainians further away from it when they could have had a pretty good peace offer way earlier now unfortunately they're going to get a
bad peace offer and so it doesn't seem like there's a great way to Avoid uh letting the Russians keep some portions of Ukraine that they've already taken I agree with David too impractical to try to take it back uh I would propose that uh that the deal is yes you get to keep that Russia but the rest of Ukraine gets to join NATO to be uh forever protected remember we took away their nukes with the promise that we would protect them forever now we've kind of failed on that promise but at least protect the rest
and that would be A way to to do that I don't agree with uh getting out of NATO I think that's a terrible idea agree with peers but I do agree with all of you guys that Trump did a very good job of getting them to pay their bills in fact I think they should pay more than us because we're mainly defending them so don't ruin the alliance but make it fair and just yeah I agree just on that NATO Point Pete heg the defense secretary United States does not believe he says that NATO membership
For Ukraine is a realistic outcome for negotiated settlement and if you take the logic of the pro Putin members of this panel joke but if you take the logic of the more more more we we believe him uh elements um then if the reason why he went to war was to stop NATO encroachment the last thing he'll do in a peace deal is allow Ukraine to become a for paid up member of NATO is my with my assessment anyway uh great panel thank you all very much yes but we Have to have compromise thank you
God bless you thanks Pi yeah good to see you guys thank you very much thank you well I'm joined in the studio now by the Crown Prince of Iran Resa pavi who says this is a moment for a reset in the Middle East great to see you again good to see you again so much has happened I mean every time I see you so much has happened but um what do you make of where we are in the Middle East right now you know Nell I don't think there's Any moment after 46 years that we
see the Iranian regime as its weakest and uh uh in proportion to that uh the Iranian people as resolved and determined than ever before uh the loss of uh proxies uh and the fall of the Bashar regime in uh Syria has been a severe blow to the regime uh means of implementing its uh uh sort of uh Beyond its Border in intervention and forting uh you know conflict uh and so therefore they really have their Backs to the war right now the speed that uh Assad was driven out of Syria in the end was very
dramatic these things often can be like that is there any real expectation that there could be a similar Uprising in Iran for example that the people look at what happened in Syria and think yeah we can do that that and and it would it be achievable you know pierce the first time that we met I think you were still with CNN we had the first interview and throughout the years I think you can also uh remember that while we had several generation of protests in Iran throughout the years and the decades the frequency of them
have become much more particularly since the Massa Revolution and the fact that Iranians are more than ever ready to go beyond the regime the cries on the streets the protest of death to the dictator death to the Islam regime are louder than ever including the last few days which was around the anniversary The 46th anniversary of the Revolution what's however important for all of us to realize is that I believe there's an alignment of the stars in terms of a golden opportunity to put an end to the very root of the crisis all over which
is the regime itself the epicenter has always been Teran I said in the way that the regime is weak and the people are ready the important thing is for some governments who are behind the curve to catch up to that why do I say this is Important because as I'm I'm sure everybody uh wants to avoid conflict or escalation of conflict and the only way to avoid conflict particularly if diplomacy has failed to achieve what was a false premise of behavior change and it has to be reset as you said of policy the best way
to address the issue so that we don't lead directly from failed diplomacy to conflict and aggression is to provide a third alternative which is empowering the Iranian people this time So therefore a policy of maximum pressure that so far has been implemented in regime has to be coupled with a policy of Maximum support thereby enabling the Iranian people to ultimately achieve that goal of Liberation put an end to this regime and instead of what we had as a major source of instability instead have an element that brings stability and peace which is conducive to realistic
Prospect of permanent Solutions shall we about the Israeli Palestinian issue that cannot be achieved as long as this regime is there sabotaging every effort right so I mean the the belief is that Iran's tentacles extend to Hezbollah the houis Hamas and they've all been destabilized to a degree uh but the possibly the ideology behind it has not been um certainly in Gaza for example the US intelligence believe that perhaps you've killed a lot of Hamas terrorists but that the thinking that belies them actually may Have been fueled by everything that's gone on there what do
you think of that I would say that it's very hard to defeat an ideology by killing people what needs to eradicate an ideology is to give the people an alternative whereby they can escape regimes that try to dominate via ideology what is communism like we saw during the Cold War in the Soviet Union or an Islamic theocracy that is trying to push its agend agenda of exporting an ideology of Course at the expense of the population of the country from which they're using as a launching path which serve as fori and his entire vision of
exporting this ideology across the world the alternative is there because the ask of people today in Iran is the very same values that the Free World enjoys and Aspire by human rights democracy no discrimination of any form and that's exactly what Iranian people want against the DNA of a regime that Cannot coexist in the world based on that conflict of values which is why you cannot ever achieve a reasonable outcome by compromising with them that's why you cannot trust them that's why they will never agree to it even as as late of President Trump trying
to still offer yet another opportunity for them to come clean K rejects it not because it's irrational but because he can afford to agree to it and these are why we what do you think if president Trump's come up With this idea that the Palestinians should all be uh taken in by Egypt and Jordan two million people it's been met with huge uh Kickback from the Palestinians and from other Arab countries in the region but as with many things that Trump says you know maybe he's trying to create a debate here about what should actually
happen because most of Gaza has been flattened I mean what happens to these people do you think well first of all my heart Goes out to uh the victims of uh all of these conflicts but we have to think of what is the permanent and Only Solution again I think that when you have a regime in Iran that is an element of instability that is forting uh aggression supports terrorism how could you possibly in that atmosphere talk about legitimate possible lasting peace I think the key element to change the entire situation in the Middle East
and Beyond is the impact that the regime has If the regime is no longer there and instead you have a government that first of all is representative of the people of Iran's aspiration people who want peace who don't have any hostility or aggression towards Israel or the Arabs or any ethnicity or any religion instead we want to be contributors to stabilizing our region um that's where finally we can see a taking place Thea in that scenario well again I think that a formula that we have always prescribed To you're familiar with it you remember saying
it all along is that uh the Iranian people are the ultimate Agent of Change they are your true boots on the ground you would see a similar scenario to what we saw in in Syria well I mean I think Iran is really unique in terms of we cannot draw a parallel to let's say Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria as recently that it has been but in terms of the people themselves within the country rising up yes against the regime well That's what the people of Iran have been trying to do except that they've been alone
in this fight they have received no support whatsoever from the outside world and the reason I say this is because successful campaign of change of regimes uh uh in a p in a nonviolent way without involving foreign intervention or military occupation or what have you um could not have been achieved all by itself without some tcid support from the Free World example solidarity Movement in uh in Poland at the end of the Cold War or the support for Nelson Mandela in the and C to put an end to aparte in South Africa in the same
spirit I think that empowerment means that we're giving the people a real chance to stand up to a regime they need to be fortified they need to be engaged with and I think the shift that I'm talking about in policy and a reset is that instead of talking about appeasement instead of talking about Expecting a behavior change and have been given ample chance to come clean and they haven't isn't it time for once to give the Iranian people a chance to really be the agent of of change and Trust IR running people in the fact
that they aspire to the very same principle that the Free World uh is governed by against a regime that is completely neglecting these rights to begin with it's it's a win-win for all it's really situation that will be a relief to our Immediate neighbors it will be an element that addresses the security concerns of many countries it eliminates the ex the existential threat to Israel and most importantly and I'm sure Donald Trump as a businessman will appreciate this is good for business too you have to have a stable environment in order to have economic opportunities
what I mean what is the one thing you would like President Trump to do right now to help facilitate this well uh one thing we can Learn from his first mandate and the maximum pressure campaign was certainly effective but this is sufficient for what it is that we are trying to achieve that's why I propose that parallel to the maximum pressure campaign and I hope Europe will join in some elements that could be added more pressure for instance the listing of the irgc as a terrorist organization which is yet to be uh implemented by Western
governments and couple this with a campaign of Maximum support energizing invigorating the people on the streets in Iran so they can better organize and mobilize themselves in the campaign of Civil Disobedience perhaps uh the final CAG grass against the regime will be labor strikes that paralyzes regime and forces an implosion at the same time uh this will be caused for more defections from the regime we already have seen sign of it I've already had had elements who until yester year believed in again Maybe reform is still plausible but that idea has been that narrative has
changed today people know that the solution is to get out of this regime but have a policy that also prepares the ground for post regime in terms of the the transition period and how this defection makes most people who don't have their hands sold with the blood of the Iran people survive regime change and have a hope for the future so they're not stuck in no man's land or forced to stay with The regime to the Beer end that's part of the solution to minimize the cost to the nation to achieve the the the goals
that they have for that we really need to have solidarity from the outside world gr it's always good to catch up with you I feel like we're living through history when I see you yeah every few years we get together and and so much happens in between well let's make a deal next time I see you be in Teran how's that let's do that that Would be great good to see great to see you thank you very much peace sensor is proudly independent the only boss around here is me if you enjoy our show we
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