Impulsionando vendas em um mundo caótico com Aaron Ross | ROI Hunters #154

Foreign [Music] [Music] with the expectations set so I think that our first question can be when you roll both predictable Revenue it was like 2011 that it was published right so would you rewrite anything as of today like something that you see it's these things like like right now it's Really different so it would be better to be here ridden yeah um there's a there's a couple things I would do differently so I'll start with you know techniques and tactics are always changing and in the original predictable Revenue I did put in some specific techniques

around like referral emails and some kind of numbers on like response rates and kind of like specific funnel metrics okay and it's been It's more than 10 years later and so a lot of those techniques sometimes still work but the metrics are off because there's so much more variety and techniques and like what works for some people and there's a lot more um it's less consistent in terms of like benchmarks they're not as useful so I would add more of the techniques that people use today because now it's like LinkedIn and even WhatsApp and there's

More channels um people still cold call kind of there's more a variety of ways and the other thing I would do is you know there's a whole section of predictable Revenue that was missing and after a bunch of years I saw companies struggle with not just outbound but growing and I would say that um we did the the sequel to predictable Revenue was called uh here in portuguesemento in Harper Grove yeah and in English because there's it's from impossible to inevitable so they changed the title in Brazil in Portuguese the Hebrew so the first section

of that book became it's called nailing in Niche nail a niche okay um that was like a whole section that was kind of I'd say missing from predictable Revenue which is all right how do you like really a very specific understanding and techniques like find The best Market the right customers who need you understand their thinking and like create messaging for them so those would be the two main things that I would change in the original um they also they did update it here uh the second edition it's orange or the Unicorn front and they

made it a lot prettier so that'd be a third change like it's much more it's better designed and they added a workbook okay that's a Fourth change so there's those are four changes and three of them already been done they're just uh in the second edition and he pressed mental so you'll save some techniques for like new social media WhatsApp those you probably will change that do believe that those new channels uh the new ways people are communicating and making decisions they change something more fundamental about how we do sales or they believe that fundamentally

it's still the same yeah Fundamental is still the same it's just there's an evolution of Which principle which principles do you apply when you know the bigger change has been going on for years and will continue to go on for for years is the um ever increasing amount of kind of stuff content apps busyness messages channels right it used to be you had texting and it was texting and Facebook and then it was texting Facebook Instagram WhatsApp you know so it's just like there's more This isn't just for business this is just people so there's

always to be more channels more messages more stuff to kind of Juggle or digital work and so also like our minds our attention is getting sliced a little more thinly and so whether you're doing outbound whether you're doing marketing whenever you're trying whether you're actually trying to communicate with someone on Your team everyone's a little more distracted and their attention spans are a little shorter and so you're you're targeting what you're doing and the messaging has to be that much more specific and uh insightful to kind of break through the noise of not just competitors

but all the other things competing for people's attention so that's just the fundamental Change that's going to continue to go on and everyone will just have to continue adapting towards which channels work best which ones aren't working do I how do I communicate per Channel and uh any anything that works today may or may not work tomorrow it seems like everyone nowadays are getting some ADHD symptoms oh really it's ancient and it's really hard to focus right now do this do you Believe that this change on Behavior makes like the conversion rates for each step

of a sales funnel works like Deborah sales funnel today is worse than it was like 10 years ago because of people with last episode of focus or more distractions no I you know it depends right so some sales funnels work bad in some ways some sales funnels work better some are worse it all depends on it's kind of like the product you have Or whatever you're offering is it like is it how you know is it the right is it needed by someone right and how effective is the product how effective is your understanding of

the right customer how effective is your sales or marketing funnel but it is likely that let's say that in the past if you had something that worked let's say a sales funnel marketing funnel that's working maybe it continues to work with smile small Changes for three years I'm just picking a number and today maybe it'll work for nine months before like the rate of entropy is increasing like the more the world is connected and the more change happens and the more kind of juggling um kind of believe that change will continue to happen faster and

we can't it's it's harder where we feel like oh we figure something out we can kind of relax and that's less true We have to rely more on our creativity and our intuition and our adaptability to continue to evolve so it's not like you will necessarily convert have a worse conversion but will be harder to keep a high conversion rate could be yeah I think that it's going to be harder whatever is working today you have to continue to pay attention to it to not only keep it working but try to improve it I think

that we are as marketers we are kind of used To have to iterate a lot of our processes so I think that maybe these kind of mentality it works it can help us on the sales process to keep it the rating process so we can keep higher conversions I think that's the the main issue right now because things change a little faster so at the same time we're going to be needing to like tweak our our process in the meantime a little faster as well yeah I think it's just being careful not to Take things

for granted just because they've been working in the past and a lot of you think about a lot of as people get older they tend to be more usually set in their ways and you know in Brazil there's like other countries lots of people who are very experienced to you know it's harder for them to change and adapt because they're used to things working for so long and they don't realize that Kind of like oh if it worked for 20 last the last 20 years why wouldn't it work next year and yeah sometimes it does

but sometimes it doesn't yeah so we you have to keep up to date but uh talking a little bit more about the the tools that Juan uh brought in earlier so do you think that automating like we we have a lot of tools that can help us automate the process right now way too many way too many more like yeah it's I'm sure the marketing people Listening whether the b2c B2B or probably like my head is going to explode with all the tools that I'm supposed to not only use that I already have used together

but also evaluate other moves right there's it's it's just so much and there's only gonna be more next year and more the year after yeah we kind of have to juggle a little bit like the the level of pers the personalization that we can offer to our customers and at the same time a lot Of our customers a lot of our clients here in Brazil mainly B2B customers they are really inclined to like try to use these tools to reduce their team you know like I'm not gonna have a big sales team right now I

I have a lot of tools that can automate the process but how can we try to measure uh the the correct or something close to the correct balance of automatization not Automation in this in this kind of world that we are right now and how much of it needs To be like one-on-one like with a person yeah it's a good question excuse me well every business would be some oh here comes the dance club right yeah there's always going to be some sort of uh teeter-totter or or balancer on how much automation versus how much

a human help sometimes you want more automation right for more transactional situations sometimes you want more human touch more human help like whether you have special clients or whether you have certain Situations where you really need like a human to be involved for that intuition oh it's getting louder I'm ready I'm going to stand up and dance her we go I think every not only in a business but also kind of by business segment you have to think for that type of customer we're serving what's the right balance you know if we're serving very complex

big customers right we need more like senior people And maybe Junior people to support them if it's but it's for lots of little businesses online maybe it's all automated so that's the the challenge was trying to fit what's that type of customer like what are we doing what's the not trying to use a copy paste approach it's not like a cookbook but thinking Hmm what's the best way to mix technology and human touch to have the best result that also fits kind of our The way our business works right because we can't afford to put

you all human all the time and sometimes humans humans make mistakes but sometimes automation helps reduce that yeah I really think that the the way that we try to teach our clients here in Brazil is that yes automating things is like really useful and it can be helpful and can reduce some some costs every once in a while but at the same time automating things um Almost always comes with a downside on the conversion rate right so there's a cost to it yeah it's not like just going to automate things and you can like fire

your say your sim and that's taking pictures yeah and there's a problem even before you speak about how it's amazing it's like what are you going to automate like do you know how this thing should be doing before you automate it like I see a lot of new teams trying to start with a lot of Automations without they even know what works and what doesn't work yeah and that is how do you believe that there's like a time frame or a clear sign of that and a given process it's mature enough for you to start

thinking about how to automate it I mean to me I think again let's take an example around um you know it's like okay uh I don't hold emails I'm just picking something you know should we kind of Create templates and automate sending them I mean no like you can send a few dozen or a few hundred and are they even working like start with small with small batches to see what works before you try to send lots um I'm sure you could apply that to marketing to kind of anything like a product why would you

it's like why would you start to manufacture like thousands of units of your product Before you know that oh it works and customers want to so it's Don't Be Afraid like there's kind of there's a camp of a person maybe Engineers tend to be this way which is we want to start out with automating everything or entrepreneurs you want to like speed it up and sometimes the best way to to move fast is to start by moving slow like hand-picked small batches to really find out what works and you know AI can be great I

haven't used it myself But I think what's missing is that human intuition to be able to come up with new ideas that can't be predicted from past performance so again I think this is AI becomes more popular we're going to continue to have this ongoing mix of how much human touch on automation or how much human Ingenuity on versus AI do we mix it's right for our business in terms of what delivers a good product experience but also kind of fits our financial operational model how much Money we want to spend yeah and can we

hire enough good people that's another problem these days right and one of our questions yes so we are going to get there but I think that AI just like metaverse or something like that just like the AI is of course much more developed right now than metaverse for example but at the same time people think that it's the only way or I have to go and use these way in Ultimate things and the example that I can just Just try to explain those things I have to be vegetarian because that's like the way to go

yeah that's not true there are a lot of a few things that are the correct way and the only way in the world I really think that there are all a lot of options so you can choose and try to work it out better in your business so one example that I can try to explain here is like a lot of our customers not talking about like uh B2B clients or something like that maybe They need to sell a product on the Internet and the first way they think to sell it is like through e-commerce

for example but not necessarily is going to be the best way what about for in Brazil WhatsApp is like huge so why not try to sell it on the internet through WhatsApp with a person answering the the messages and people know I need to have a Salesman or something like that and maybe it's the the inside here is trying small first and starting with WhatsApp To see if it really sells and then you're going to automate and create an e-commerce or something like that I think that's the the main way to go sorry you're having

to keep making many funny gestures as people walk past and they're taking pictures of us no problem I think it's it's not it's being it's it's saying look we want things to grow we want things to be automated and scalable we want things to go fast but sometimes sometimes it makes Sense to start slow like slow down first to speed up later yeah like it doesn't help to automate something or scale it if it's not working in the first place like people will say I'm sending a thousand emails a month I'm only getting a tiny

response rate I got to send more emails how does that make sense let's do more and it used to be I'm making calls and I'm not getting three people so I gotta make more calls how does that make sense we're getting a Really you know so start small and I think what happens is sometimes the getting something that works and the result we want takes way longer than we we want it to or that we think it should take like all I've been working at it for for three months already like it should be working

well who says who you have no idea how long it's going to take to get to the point where clicking it might take you six months might take you a year but you don't know It never worked you mean it could be yeah you find something like or maybe somebody said you know what the wrong way I got just different so if you but then we get into these weird places of having expectations or mentally like oh it should only take three months or take someone else on my team like why is it taking them

so long like why don't you try it you think it's you can do it faster come on you give it a shot so it's really hard I think for us to kind Of look at a problem and say look okay um sometimes there's problems that we don't know the answer like okay we're gonna solve it but we don't know how long it's going to take and there's but the thing is there's enough stories in business where you know the leader says we need you to send a rocket to the moon in three months and people

do it somehow and that happens sometimes but a lot of times it doesn't Usually probably doesn't right so but the stories of people doing it get into the news and the stories of people where it doesn't work don't so but then we always compare ourselves to oh leader set a big goal and we we didn't hit it and we failed well that happens all the time all the time so what's the problem do you believe that this is worse and sales like I have this impression that people have a mental image of how sales Works

like quite similar with how Tech works and they say hey everything and people who have never made one sales call they come to the sales team say hey you're doing the wrong things yeah do you believe that this is more common in sales than in other teams yeah well I think that if someone that happens in the sales team should someone send someone to the marketing team and be like hey you're doing marketing all wrong you know like they don't know I Think one of the I really wish more companies would take kind of sales

and marketing managers and leaders and switch them for three months so they could be in each other's shoes like that's really the best way to create more teamwork understanding is when those teams they just have to have more communication learn what each learn more about each other like if you only do sales and you're in your vacuum And you're getting bad leads and just complaining about marketing that's not helping like there's reasons there's so many solvable ways to go and solve that problem right the fight between sales and modernity is like something that always existed

and at before we are trying to solve that by literally doing that not just sweetie it's 90 solvable like in the hypocrisy mental book like there's you know three or four you know there's a whole section on it on That you know like that having the junior sdrs you it's for B2B right junior sbrs or uh ldrs like sales people sit between like pre-filter leads for sales that helps having marketing Beyond metrics they're related to sales helps having a single Revenue leader sometimes it's CEO sometimes not that can help like it's just more communication and

talking you know it's not unsolvable it's just people don't put the try new ideas I guess I don't know yeah Lack of knowledge yeah I really think that that people just accept it as it is in Brazil and inertia yeah CEO is just used to it and like yeah it's normal yeah there's companies like that and yeah just just um easy to think like that but at before what we do what we did uh we have a VP of marketing and sales so he's the one that is looking to how can we generate leads for

example uh and at the same time he's taking care a little bit of Course he has his like his leaders underneath his wings but he needs to ex spend the money on the right way and at the same time get the most Revenue he can possibly get through this money and sometimes that can work I think it can then it comes down to the person you've got and they kind of like sometimes it doesn't work because you I think in the states usually have like a VBS sales and then they add okay now you do

marketing too and they don't really know enough About marketing they haven't been in the marketing trenches the jobs to really understand it and so it's kind of too much of a bias to sales okay it could be the reverse right a VP marketing who ad sales but sometimes it works really well depends on the person you've got but what would be the the other way around well I think usually it's better to have like that one person ahead of you know ahead of Revenue like cheap Revenue officer VP Revenue Um I think it's just knowing

can you get the best person and then even then just doing the best this is for the CEO to say hey all right do they have kind of a balanced view of all the functions or at least the right people under them right if you have a great kind of sales director and marketing director and customer success director all reporting up to that P of sales and marketing that can make all the difference it's all about the Leadership and the team and the people they've got together and again if the leader is open-minded right and

a lot aren't I think there's lots of VPS or sales you're like marketing what a waste of money and if I start like lots of VPS and Marketing sales like a bunch of boneheads right um so that kind of attitude is not going to help that doesn't help so hey look we have something I have we can learn something from anyone here I have a lot to learn from marketing or vice versa let's work together let's try something new and you can letting the not letting the ego or the pride get in the way you

got it so just just to see if I really got it it would be nice right here like a quiz so um instead of having the VP of marketing and sales that we have it before for example that can be biased uh we should have like a cro something like that Chief Revenue officer something like that in underneath him we are going to have like two persons like two leaders maybe two or three because depending on the business you have sales uh if they're sales people marketing uh it could be Partnerships sometimes sometimes they're related

to revenue sometimes not okay or like account management customer success yeah so this is like what are the main Revenue Uh functions that are related that should be coordinated this way and that can vary business to business so I wouldn't say that that is like the best way to do it I'd say that's a great option because there's no best way but for businesses that um sometimes having a separate sales of VP of sales and marketing isn't working the way it should and they should look at this all right again it all comes down to

the People you've got and the business you've got it's like wow should I be vegetarian because that's the best right wow no not for everybody like some people need to eat meat like you need to like learn know your own business know your own team know your own body and test it to see what works best for you rest is just blindly copying what other people do yeah so speaking about things like a huge thing that's already ever seen is like remote teams and what do You think about remote for sales it's working you have

any kind of tips you know first I I don't know I mean yes for sure it's working um I can't say how well it's working you know for some companies they love it and it's working better than ever in other companies they struggle and they kind of bring people back to headquarters so it's kind of the same vein of there's so many ways to do it now right in the past there used to be you could Be a male or a female right and that was very simple sometimes there was people who put out stuff

but generally you are today could be a lot of things like how do you know what you are if you're if you don't feel like you fit into that box so there's like all remote and there's all in the office sometimes those work great but if you don't fit into those boxes how do you figure out well you kind of have to try and see what works for you so again Depending on the market on the people the culture for sure remote sales for some companies has worked amazingly well and for others it's been a

real struggle I do feel like the culture is a lot more important at that point because when you have people who are not in the office together like when you're meeting people together in person there's a lot of team building and relationship building that just happens because you're there so you Kind of trust each other more you know each other more and when you're remote you don't have that and so there's a much bigger burden on the company and the leaders to help replace that with other ways for people to meet each other trust each

other get to know each other kind of build those relationships inside the company yeah it's before talking about remote scenes I think that our sales team is like the most um person yeah no it's the biggest team But at the same time they are the most Avid users of our office office so I don't know if like our culture or it's the salesman future sales people in general tend to be more they want to be around other people yeah um I get that because that'd be my way like it'd be kind of lonely if you

just at your computer like trying to beat me up yeah in general that is I hear this from so many companies sales people generally like to be in the Office with other people more and Engineers don't you know yeah it's kind of the this way it's like understandable I guess yeah for some sales leader who is dealing with a remote team to have any kind of specific uh tip or anything that you believe to eat specifically you know in terms of uh get it for relax and not be too professional like too stiff too impersonal

It's like you need to start to create more personal relationships across screens and if you're kind of like a boring business person that's harder to do I mean people will stay for the job and but you'll get a much better culture team what does that sound I know it's raining it's raining man wow damn yeah I'm saying that you know a lot of um Especially like the tradition of business culture is to be kind of like in a suit and basically impersonal don't talk about your personal life I would say kind of be kind of

boring honestly be a leader and I think it's different people really want to know kind of who people are whether they're leaders and think it'll help which is [Music] um about them And rain and again yeah okay a little break I guess let's continue I guess I don't think it's going to rain anymore because yeah there is no forecast for raining like today so probably was just God messing with us that's right that's right so I'm gonna recap here yeah let's ask the question again yeah I think uh we're going to move on uh with

another question right Now so just I think it's the talking about these these changes so we have like the Gen the new generation and [ __ ] Piggy this is our CEO so he is the CEO of your CEO yeah that's my friend and his friend and my uncle so talking about the new generation of sales people so it's a workers in general not just yeah yeah we are focusing here on the sales people but But there is the new generation and the question is do you think they are like softer like softer salesmen softer

sales people you know do I think the the newer sales people are softer I mean I think naturally when people are entering the sales job most people are going to be on the softer side because they're not uh used to the types of um what's the term like the types of like effective sales conversations how To ask for Budget or something so there's a certain set of skills that most people can learn um but they don't start off naturally I don't believe like there's lots of people say that younger Generations just in general are softer

like they haven't had to deal with hardship and I don't buy that it's different um but I do feel like anyone can learn and if it's effective people will learn it so whether they start is softer or Not uh I don't I don't think once people are experienced that they are I think that's just an impression from people who are newer to the job and I think that's always been more the case it's quite different from most people think about the new generation yeah but they're always like wow this new generation yeah I think that's

more of a curmudgeon be kind of like a cranky person it's just fun to make fun of the younger Generation yeah so it's like our grandparents believe that our fathers are softer the fathers believe that we are softer than them and we believe that the next generation is softer than an Earthly yeah well I I don't think it's softer I do think that we're more emotional than these Generations became more emotional which actually is a good thing really it's a good thing and then through that there's this new set of kind of like personal boundaries

work Boundaries that people have to learn on their own what we're not doing is being handed a set of predetermined in the past like here's like the set of social rules that you need to follow rigidly and it's kind of more open Society is becoming more open-ended like what gender are you it's like so there is a lot more openness this is and should be more emotion and feeling and that is reflected by I would say people in the past it's different It's kind of scary that oh you know you can't he's like well I

have you know it's like yeah if you grew up and you struggle for food it's easy to kind of judge people who don't have to the same way so I think most of it there's some truth in it but I think in general it's great progress that people should be more emotional especially men have more feelings expressed them and kind of Learn what their own boundaries are where do they want to have hard lines on in their own lives that may be their versions not just what Society or older people think they need to have

yeah look uh on this point like do you believe that there's some there are less people who want to work really hard than before like I have this impression that maybe a few years ago and a lot of people will do once I I went to work like 14 16 hours a day and get rich and today like It that is what do I I you you know I want like an eight hours of work per day and I have a nice life four day work week yeah yeah what's wrong with that but my point

is differences like do you believe that there are more forms this new generation who wants test and sure yeah and how to do that with versus I think if people believe that oh the amount of the work you do equates the amount of money you make that's not true first so and Sometimes it is but often it's not it depends on what you do it's not you for me it's never been true for me as far as I mean when I was a lot younger there were times it was like I had a painting business

and when I went and knocked on doors um I made more money but then I could have hired someone to do that and I wouldn't have to do it so It's like I think that thinking oh the harder you work you need to work hard you need to work hard to be successful is um weak thinking right it's very it's rigid thinking sometimes you do and sometimes you don't sometimes working hard is the worst thing you can do like if you're in a creative field where you need to have ideas and energy and enthusiasm working

hard is like the worst thing you can do Stupid I think it's the difference between working hard and working smart yeah I would say it's almost like trying to be in touch with when what kind of work should you do when like for me there's times I had to work in a very focused manner for hours on end right I've had where there's different jobs um was it hard work I mean yeah I mean I worked hard like I did actually invest in banking for two years where I worked 80 to 100 hours a week

a lot of it was like the same stuff I was just it got to be boring you know just more of the same stuff I wasn't learning much after that so if I continued that I would have made a really good salary but it would not have set me on the path of creating my own um my own destiny you know my own way to make money so I do think that it's not the problem of lack of of a desire to Work hard it's kind of people don't always know what they want to do

because there's so many things they can do and there's a not an appreciation people don't understand the level of challenge it takes to get to uh you know let's just say wealth right because there's many kinds of success but to generate wealth people underestimate what that takes because they see all the stories on social media oh I just have to work hard For a year well maybe maybe not no I just need to do this like it might take you a year it might take you 10 years so I think it's there's these again artificial

these wrong expectations people have and so after six months or a year they can equate at something they do something else and they've restart the clock so it's not so much a lack of desire to work hard I think it's people Mostly if you haven't been successful you just don't know what it takes and even if you have been successful and I have I still often don't know what it takes even for me for my next thing or for my kids like I I don't know you know everyone has to find their own way so

there's a lot of I caught fortune cookie advice that gives given out right yeah uh it's like this all just stuff you people hear about it and just repeat it and doesn't mean anything like oh You're not working hard enough like you that doesn't that's not true it's not necessarily replicable yeah it's not necessarily repeatable repeatable like I have I have a teenager um like I have a 19 year old who's just really good at music I do believe she will be successful in making you know in music and she's like if she wants to

have to have it happen next year I'm like you don't know that it could take You 10 years it might happen but you have no idea how long it's going to take or what's involved that a 17 year old who's kind of failing at school and a lot you know people are like oh like what's he gonna do I mean but he has this kind of weird like ninja trick where he just comes up with these random ideas out of nowhere and it's some some day I really believe that he'll kind of go from Zero

to Hero for just some Like almost like a roll the dice somehow like he just I don't know does it he just has these kind of postings out of his Pierce I don't know you can't explain it so there's a lot of ways people work and if you're really looking to create a breakthrough in your career or success sometimes you can do that by just working diligently and sometimes you can do it by kind of making it like Tai Chiang it with magic Just depends on who you are on your style it's like how can

you find your style like to align with kind of your out I don't always have the words like the flow like for me it's almost this um flow I can I try to feel into or this uh like intuition where I feel like like I'm aligned with my destiny in a way and sometimes it's just not working like right now I really don't work much I just I'm kind of re-energizing myself and after so many years with so many Children I would like to be inspired I would like to be creating more content I would

like to have like a next purpose but I don't have that now and I don't know how long it's going to take and if I try to work hard at figuring that out it would just set me back do you have you raised uh the ratio you think from matchmakary to book the great Coe thing from Matt Matt McCory right he has this expression zone of Genius like where you are a Genius when you are working like you find the zone of genius and you try to make most of time there yeah yeah the way

to describe it is um you know I was in a business um and I had a partner and my partner just wanted expected me wanted me to work in my zones of stupidity now like implementing projects and like all these exhausting things and I had no energy left to create content I didn't Want to and you know I just like was blocked from working in my own zone of genius and uh yeah it's like an executive even on stage to talk I said like any VP of sales is not going to be great at all

the aspects of that job right maybe there's 10 of them in between like call coaching email coaching hiring firing setting quotas living territories technology proposals demos blah blah blah you know there's some portion of those where Maybe they were great five years ago and to have the the courage and confidence to say look these these are the things I'm great at these are things I'm not going to be great at and I need help there right it's gonna be better for the team if we get someone else to focus on these areas is smart and

CEOs need to do that too it's just hard especially as a CEO because you kind of feel like the buck stops me I Got to do it all and you don't so I think the more you can identify even what your zone of Genius is I would say unique genius a lot of people aren't sure but people around you people who've worked with you can also can give you feedback but one sign is what do I like to do you know what do I know that I'm good at and what do I like to do

and then just often stuff that I need to Do that other people can't and then this other bucket of what what should I do that's the bucket to get rid of so usually migrate at what do I like to do what do I need to do everything else you know get rid of it or get someone else do it as much as possible when we are talking about like working smart and the zone of genius and we go back to go back to creating a sales team So I would like to hear a little bit

about a fast growing company so when we have like to hire a lot of people and we need to scale these team and develop them and make them have a great run path you know it's I think it's the the term like there are two two parts of subscription like one is how to hire fast and with what the best quality you can and choose how to develop the people that you already have like SDR becomes a closer a closer become a manager and Things like that when you are growing really fast and you don't

have time to do things with the best possible way yeah well I think it does help if you're if you're hiring lots of people at least one sense it's to do your best to do it in classes right groups so each month you might have with people starting at the same time so rather than everyone starting when they get hired right away like okay one person today and one person in the next in four days and two People next week you know every you know whether it's a couple weeks or months have a group together

that are kind of they can get to know each other they can be trained together there's a lot more kind of uh like an orchestra together that way that's one way on the hiring people and doing good people doing quickly you know it's not really my expertise there but I would say that Um there's so many companies it's like kind of knowing your culture how can you kind of put that out there in a way that possible recruits can see that and feel like oh is this a good fit or not a good fit right

if you are a culture that values and of hard work who's David say that if you're a culture that is more flexible and that's not a Top Value say that you're trying to make it as easy as possible for the right people to kind of feel your Vibe And say yeah that feels like a good fit or not and for the people who aren't a good fit to be turned off so it's really good to see this like video is a good way for that like if the founder or someone does a video so they

can see someone speaking about it it's another good way to connect get that uh the vibe yeah we have a strategy yet before that we call Scout it's like a it's like a course uh to train sales people sales persons and It's really working because we have like almost I think it's 30 percent or more of our sales team which have something around 80 people right now uh uh they came from the Scout course so I think it's like uh the the in-between of our strategy here so we have to hire people and then make

a group to train them together uh we are doing this with a course which is called Scout and I really think it works yeah yeah I think it's a good way to strategize a Development of a team of a COC yeah other thing is you can create more jobs if you can afford to do this create more jobs whether they're interns or at a junior level so you can hire people who may not fit like a sales job or SDR job into like a training like a like a trainee a development job okay yeah so

let's say well for sales people like the SDR job is like a training job for AE but you can also have SDR kind of researchers or Um you know even other other jobs in the company that you can kind of bring in maybe people who have potential but not experience how to think about promoting people you know this kind of environment like how fast should you promote an SDR and account executive for a management job inside sales yeah well the Str answers easier because that's more standard or usually if you have a good SDR I

mean they're going to want to be they're Going to want to be promoted within you know a few months three or four months or it's like this challenge because the best sdrs are going to be the ones who get bored the fastest with the job right um how often do you promote them it depends on how fast the company's growing but if it's a very fast growing company might be as soon as you know eight six or eight months if it's slower growing you know maybe 18 a year and a half For outbound prospecting so

again a common career path is people get hired in to do inbound leak response they get promoted to do outbound prospecting if people are going to be in that job for a while it's more common to break it into kind of micro promotions so maybe every three to six months they go from sdr1 to sdr2 and then str2 to str3 and you can create Variety in there like team lead you can kind of create more types of jobs to create some upward Movement so it's not like big chunks every year too it's just more smaller

chunks um sales people it's impossible to answer because and there's so many types of sales people and jobs and you know even within a company depending how fast you're going B2B b2c but if you feel like there's people in there and they want more progression you can always look at it's kind of micro promotions you can always look at Um things like team leads or putting on like side projects where they can take ownership of projects or could be simple like uh learning about a certain vertical or internal uh if people want more responsibility there's

ways to offer that to them without giving them like a promotion I mean people they want to make money but they also want to learn feel like they're advancing professionally and it's like boredom Is challenging in a job because people if they get bored they're like oh I should probably try to leave and look for something more interesting yeah we can go back to the the information issue that we have today so people are bombarded I guess with a lot of a lot of information so they became all these exciting looking things yeah new things

new new ways new careers but you you said uh like the guy comes in on a in a Inbound environment so he is an sgr for example and then he goes to a bdr uh career is it like um the way you see it it's like sgr nvdr inbounds and then outbound or or it's like a Y type of career so you can choose to go on an inbound path or your go to the outbox yeah well if you're a company that doesn't have inbound leads obviously you don't have that job and people just starting

out now and you can always hire people right Into outbound um but I think it just helps with the training when you have actually less experienced people start them if you can start them in an inbound job because they learn a lot there and promote them to outbound so usually for if you're in about every sales job can be a why where every no matter if you're in and I don't use the term sgr for inbound because there's so many confusing it's like inbound lead Response or inbound SDR you some people can go from there

to outbound but some people might realize you know what sales not for me um maybe I want to go to product or marketing or Partnerships but if they've spent a bunch of months in inbound lead response they're going to be a great and you know that they're a good person they're going to be a great employee someplace so because they've been talking to Customers for months so but most tending then to go to outbound anything from outbound again maybe people decide they don't want to go into sales but again they maybe some most will some

might want to go into customer success or account management or the thing is they've been talking to customers custom customers they've been doing outbound prospecting they've got some incredibly valuable skills and if they've been there for six to 14 months You kind of know them you know if they're good at you'll know if they should stay at the company or not so it's no matter where they go they're an amazing sources this these jobs are amazing sorts of talent for sales and other parts of the company the people who stay there and succeed got it

and just just to wrap it up I guess uh I have a question that is uh talking a little a little bit about ABM so the question is like that what is Anti-ballistic missiles yeah like out-based marketing for the people that have obviously from already asleep yeah but the question is like what is the best ABM strategy that you have seen well it's hard to say because I think that ABM to really do it it takes so much so many resources people and work in technology and it's not hasn't been the side that I've been

in uh it's a lot of like hands-on experience to see Who's actually made it work I think ABM you have to say look here's ABM is this kind of idea let's pick one part of it to really make it work well so if we're doing ABM for a small number of like large Target accounts let's start there which that include account based marketing I mean okay because it can take a lot of Hands-On coordination between sales people like Executives events marketing people online ads you know offline events and so that might be One place to

start or another place might be all right we have all these like small businesses we're targeting so ABM in that case might mean we're going to do um sort of like certain kinds of ads and interview with our CRM and you know it's picking a place to begin because I think people it's a term that gets thrown out that people don't realize like the there can be so much behind that that's just impossible to do all at once So again I can't think of one this moment there's um there is a uh a case study

in the Hebrew Christian mental book on ABM from John Miller who started he was the guy who started a company called Marketo I'm blinking right and then he started a company called engagio engagio was an ABM platform they sold to demand base I believe um but he said in there he kind of laid out Um a good waste like if there's four tiers right you've got you kind of categorize your customers in this case the example he used was it'd be like this uh like five strategic targets at the top right and you have you

spend you know that's just like super high hand handhold in there and the next group is you know several maybe 15 or 20 companies grouped by a few verticals right and it gets a bit less service but still very high touch and the next mid Market is so he kind of laid it out so I think that's where I would start is okay which what are your customer segments and pick one to really start with because it's just more work than people realize that that's my only I just got an ebm I have a last

question for me that is about compensation for sales people like there's a lot of discussion about uh should you pay a commission should be all uh just the salary without any kind of commissions How do you see that for sales people you know there's a lot of these questions in life which we're now heading towards these world of spectrums right there's so many ways to do everything again that's why I like the example of genders what gender should I be well no one can tell you that right how should we compensate ourselves people well there

are a lot of models that have worked like commission only has worked Salary plus everything has worked for someone so I think if you start with this looking at all right what are some companies that are similar to me like what have they done that has worked or not worked right if I'm a retail store I would have other retail stores done um and again if I'm uh more kind of uh high volume cheaper versus high-end high-end luxury computers versus clothes like but go talk to some do some research on companies like you whether They

tried whether they like or not like and then it's like all right this let's start something so my advice is You're Gonna Change comp plans try to involve the sales people in that conversation or whoever's the team is say look you need to change the comp plan I'll I want your advice your input let's do this together let's Workshop it and we'll try this for two months or three months and then we'll stay in touch and after that if it's worked we'll kind of make it Permanent and if not we'll have to just do another

version to kind of try again people get very sensitive about money and it's better to be in communication with them and not just do a new plan and drop out on them and again it's because it's finding the right comp plan for that team this year is something that will I believe will work better if you involve them in it and you have a like a testing period that we all know about To try to say we want to get the best comp plan that works for everybody we can't if we take a guess at

it it's probably not going to work because either it'll be two Like the quote for example the quotas might be too low and you're going to be really mad because we're gonna once you make too much money we're going to jack up the quotas maybe the quotas quotas are too high and you get really mad because you're going to miss them But if we kind of have like a testing period with maybe it's the same quarter is different whatever we're changing let's learn together and we'll do this together I think to me that's the best

way to do it when you can the compensation model that we had before was like a base uh salary and commission like pretty standard I guess and we started to switch in it uh to only uh the the salary with no commission the highest salary as possible and we gave People the the option to opting you know like what do you prefer do you prefer commission or do you prefer a fixed salary for example and I guess like like 100 of them right now are on the fixed salary and we are trying to implement something

that we discussed on uh earlier episode that we are going to have the the fixed budget the fixed salary for them and quarterly uh bonuses so if he like surpasses the quota so he is going to have a something around uh Yeah because I've Heard lots of stories about companies making fixed salaries for sales and new Commission work and for some companies that might and for others it would be a disaster so it's about kind of knowing for your company your culture your rate of growth your customers you know what's going to work for you

and realizing yeah there's going to be a it's an evolution so it's they're always going to be changing so to me it creates A lot more trust and better relationships with the sales people when they're involved in that in some way and it's not it doesn't come out as a surprise this idea of tests the new um yeah to test the new comp plan with just a few sales sales people for two three months and then decide if you roll out it for the whole company like after you say that like it's obvious like try

it with a few people and but I have never Thought about about that because then my mind is always hey it's a camp I can't pay different people for the same thing on different ways but I can if I we speak with them they understand they volunteer maybe but it's possible yeah yeah and even that may not work for lots of companies like if you sell really big projects and they take 12 months to close you know so it's like there's so much of life like we want answers like I just want the answer right

well yeah Have more confidence in your ability to come up with good ideas and try them out that's really what I think most people should internalize is like you have great ideas like you know your business better than other people like like get advice from people but then you come up with something you feel like is gonna work and try it and stay in touch with your team and have more comp develop more confidence in your ability to come up With ideas and do them thank you so much Aaron I I guess it was a

great episode uh and switching really fast no just before switching just a little cut here um how can people search for you where where are you producing content right yeah I mean the best place really is our uh provisivel website um I do have a newsletter in English it's fresh air on substack I think I'm gonna have that we're working to get That translated okay um and I'm on Instagram aaronross383 it's mostly like kid pictures and fun stuff so but I think the the following you see it Instagram is really popular here in the fast

Place yeah like silly stuff yep that's that's me so you know yeah that's great um so thank you so much thank you [Applause]