welcome everyone to nerd of the Rings I am here at Dragon steel Nexus in Salt Lake City talking with the famed Brandon Sanderson of the wonderful cosmere my latest Obsession in the world of books Brandon thanks so much for taking the time out it's my pleasure thanks for having me now I always like to start people off with the question how were you first introduced to tolken so I was introduced to tolken um Through The Hobbit um when I was like in fifth grade and fourth grade I got into a big reading kick and uh
during that time I read two fantasy novels I don't count this as the start of my but I read just as I was reading whatever people handed me uh and one was a Jane yolan Book okay uh and one was The Hobbit and I really liked The Hobbit I really like the Jane yolan book too Dragon Blood highly recommend but I I'm like oh if I like The Hobbit I should read Lord of the Rings yeah I was not a great reader I'm in fifth grade or sixth grade I picked up Lord of the Rings
and I bounced off hard right I think I got to the bar whites I'm not even sure right uh and I'm like fantasy you know books books for I didn't even think fantasy I didn't know it was a genre I'm like books for for big people are not for me uh is is you know bouncing off of that and uh it wasn't tolkien's fault but it was other things people also gave me like um at that point they're like oh you didn't like that Here's Where the wild uh where the wild Fern Grows or where's
here's Old Yeller and I started reading a bunch of of books that just didn't really work for me um I I knew what it was like to be a kid living in kind of a rural area I didn't need uh books about it uh and so I fell out of reading during that era um and then I got back into it in 8th grade so about two three years later I had a teacher get me into fantasy novels um with uh with the barbar hamy novel um and after I really did a deep dive back
into fantasy um and I read Terry Brooks on things like this and of of course Terry Brooks I'm like oh yeah that tolking guy everybody loves tolking um and so when I was 18 I said well maybe I will like Lord of the Rings now and I really loved it um by then I'd become a good enough reader to appreciate the things that tolken was doing um and you know with the kitty gloves being off from Hobbit to Lord of the Rings um and so that was my first introduction to Lord of the Rings uh
Sil marilan I did not read until I was in college late College like we're talking like 10 years later I'm like all right I I I call myself a fantasy fan I've got to do it I've got to do it um and I'll be honest s melan was still hard I thought when I went to S marilan I'd be like it's kind of like when I read Lord of the Rings I'm not no it was still kind of hard um it was still um like I got through it and I appreciate it and I really
appreciate it now with all this you know all the stuff that's happening I know rings of power isn't technically allowed to do the sil melan but at least I can talk intelligently when people are like that's not how the saril are actually supposed to be can be like oh yes I as a person who has read the sil marilan once and barely understood it I totally totally agree and understand what the Yeah so can I say as just a quick aside that your your reaction to Dan saying that he might give season one an eight
out of 10 a meme rings of power is still a seven or even an eight out of 10 because eight out of 10 I watch that sometimes just you know I've I I might even have it saved on my phone and I send it to people once in a while it just gives me a good chuckle uh yeah I will admit I haven't been able to get myself to do season two even though largely people say season 2 is an improvement I think it is I think it is and you know like I I always
say to people like I love Next Generation Star Trek like first season's rough so give it to a second season I feel like I should be willing to do that for things like rings of power and whatnot and I didn't hate rings of power uh you you saw I gave it like a six I think that's what I gave it to was it oh well um and so you know six is above average um it it was above average the fact that I it it's being compared to a 10 in the films is maybe unfair
to it but yeah now um being a tolking fan and you know encountering those books at a young age especially Hobbit and Lord of the Rings how do you feel those have influenced your own writing yeah so what I my kind of standard answer to this which may be too glib and may not have enough Nuance to it but it makes a good sound bite is I see myself as kind of a scholar of the fantasy genre particularly Epic Fantasy right the branch that came from tolken and I kind of view there being three main
branches there's the Howard heroic Branch um which we see a lot of uh Michael morock during the 70s and things like that all of that kind of single character in a brutal World um where magic is something to be afraid of um stuff which kind of I think Joe abomi is kind of the modern um kind of leader of that sort of thing obviously um and then um I wouldn't say obviously obviously that's one of the big um lines I was saying then there's the the portal fantasy line um right which is the really starts
with um L with not L which with um with Wonderland Alice Wonderland is kind of the I mean there's been portal fantasies going it's like the earliest of these genres um and then you have the portal fantasies that obviously Harry Potter is the big portal fantasy of this era where it's person from our world usually a kid gets sucked into a fantasy world and uh Narnia popularized that then we have Epic Fantasy which really there are no precursors to unless you go to mythology like the precursors to to tolken are Bale wolf rather than right
um you see a lot of fairy stories in the 1800s and you see a lot of portal and you see a lot of I travel to a mystical land or this is from the prehistory of Earth um with uh with that stuff but tolken it's really in this you know the closest things it are bolf and the Odyssey um and and so seeing that as like the big he really kicked off Epic Fantasy like he is the Epic Fantasy obviously he's the biggest name but I think he's also the progenitor and so I view Epic
Fantasy in three basic Generations so far uh because tolken really started Epic Fantasy um with Lord of the Rings uh and so it's a genre in it is the youngest of the three big fantasy um genres obviously there's urban fantasy that's Strat line between fantasy and horror so it's its own thing um but you can say urban fantasy goes back to Dracula and before to Frankenstein so um so it's the youngest and the tolken the big thing with tolken is he did something that no one had ever done before which is really hard to do
yeah um right really really hard to do and that is true complete secondary World fantasy if you look at the early heroic fantasies they all take place on our world you know uh Conan is an our world just during the prehist prehistory age Narnia starts in our world Wonderland starts in our world um and tolken is the first time we really see a this is taken totally straight as a secondary world even though it's Middle Earth so it has some little con um where he's like I'm going to take it from Earth and make you
know this whole new mythology this whole new lore it is so well done that everybody by necessity spent a generation in it yes right uh and the really cool epic fantasies that came out after that I don't know how you talk about these things online but are things like Thomas Covenant right which is deeply tolken influenced um it's stuff like uh the fion of our tapestry um by Guy Gabriel K if you talked about him uh no I know yeah I know of him and have talked about his work with Christopher yeah yeah do you
know as an the side I could not get out of guy Gabriel K how much he did on S yeah I had dinner with him I'm like all right tell me he's like I'm not all these years later he will not say a peep of what he he did I think he pushing like 50 years ago yeah I think he has too much respect for the whole thing who knows what he did like I really want to know if he had to step in and finish some things or or what like did he do for
S melan what I did for Wheel of Time right um how but he won't he won't say a word so one those I think it's going to be an unsolved mystery probably um but even if we look at stuff like Tad Williams and we look at stuff like David edings and some of these things that were really popular in the ' 80s they're all on a quest um there's often an elfish race or an elfish culture there's often a dwarfish race or a dwarfish culture there's a magical item that uh right and um and they're
all there's some really excellent fantasy I mean I've mentioned Terry Brooks um and it feels like a lot of these were tolken dropped like the the coolest thing ever and then said and I'm done yes right um deal with that world and so hugely in his shadow yeah um right and then the generation that I am is the people so that generation kind of um did a lot of very tolken Us My Generation responded against yes uh and I think responding against can be as flattering I hope it's not like I'm like oh tolken was
so awful it was look something we've got to take this genre new places we can't spend forever in his shadow in fact that really started with the second generation with the end of it with uh Robin hob and George Martin and even Robert Jordan who the first three books of Robert Jordan are very token yeah yeah right you've got you've got straight up ring wraths you've got straight up right uh and then you get to book four and suddenly it's a political Intrigue uh giant kind of political mess like Game of Thrones which was also
came out a few years later that that's what people were really getting interested in and then Robin hob and some of these people take it a different direction like the whole the whole Assassin's Apprentice stories about what if you know what if Frodo but he ran away right you know that's kind of what those are and things like that like um you're anyway so what am I I respond kind of against um tolken has this sort of sorrowful feel that permeates a lot of these ma it is the they the time of elves has passed
yes they are sailing away um the time of men is here and men are slowly becoming less awesome yes right magic is like dying magic is dying um and the world is becoming a new world and it's like there is some hope for a new world right that's worlds die and are reborn and things like that and obviously that became the theme of The Wheel of Time um is that you know magic is going away in technology is coming is kind of how you view um view that and that's toen so I am the one
of the core themes of my stories is Magic is returning yes right this is these are stories about worlds where it's time for the magic to come back and the other big theme is Magic as science um and right like if magic exists we should be able to make it um something we can understand and replicate its effects uh it's kind of the anti- Gandalf right Gandalf I mean tolken knew what Gandalf could do U but I'm talking about like as it's presented to the reader um we would call Gandalf I usually use as my
example of kind of the ultimate soft magic yes yeah right because his job in the story is to make the hobbits feel small not just physically but also in terms of the grand context there are things going on you don't understand you know this is a phobe Beyond you you know I can fight this thing you cannot that is Gandalf's purpose and we don't know like you know Gandalf's like wow I'm worn out and you know and that was one thing that stuck out to me when I started reading your books is you know uh
I never thought like uh you know something like running out you know running out of P I was like oh my gosh like I know what that mean you know it's it's such a difference to to like have that understanding and I think it's it's a very uh um interesting storytelling you know experience uh to to be on the inside so to speak of the magic now I will say that tolken also has the first great hard magic system which is the one ring oh yeah um because a really good hard magic system is about
a couple of things it's about rep you can replicate an effect but it has a cost and that cost over time should have a deep influence on the uh the story and the one ring is actually the example I use of a really great um simple concept deep usage yeah hard magic system you put on the ring you become invisible that's really handy in the short term yes you will pay a cost both in your you know by being around the ring by being further corrupted and by um certain things can see you and get
to you if you are using the one ring that couldn't otherwise and so the dis cost it's used very effectively in the story over and over again as showing off and it becomes narratively key to the whole thing it is the perfect soft magic system and the perfect hard magic system in one story and that's one of the things I love about Lord of the Rings I'm sorry I I will nerd out on Magic and the history of fantasy all day I yeah I've watched enough of your podcast to like you know I get sucked
into it uh very easily because I find it very interesting um one of the things that I really appreciate uh um about your books is you know there's obviously violence and darkness and everything but you don't like Revel in it I'm guessing that's uh you know it's not it's not gratuitous is that I'm guessing that's a conscious decision it's just what I like to write uh I definitely think that some very dark things make for really great stories yeah um my favorite short story of all time is Harrison Bergeron which is just it's Kurt vonet
it's a kick to the face um and things like that so I I definitely am glad that the genre has room for Grim dark and non- Grim dark yeah but where I instead of reacting against tolken react toward tolken um is that in the Epic Fantasy sort of line you know you've got you've got the the George R Martin which took it Grim dark and he's really I think George would say he's a combination of heroic and epic he's kind of taking heroic sensibilities from that line of you know magic is evil uh not evil
magic is dangerous Dy iters but they a lot and you don't really know who the heroes and villains often are but he put Epic Fantasy sort of um narrative uh structure upon that aesthetic and that's Game of Thrones yeah um and that kicked off a whole bunch of grim dark I would definitely say that where I respond toward tolken is in that sort of things are awful but there is light on the horizon you know look for me um on the morning um is what the always get the number of days wrong but you know
in G not actually the third is it the third it would be it's it's mythologically important for it to be the third like with a Christ metaphor so I always say it is but I think it's actually not and it always trips me up so hey guys Matt from the future here I just had to clarify this while in the films Gandalf shows up at dawn on the fifth day with aare this is actually one of those rare instances where the films stretch rather than condense the timeline in the books Gandalf leaves the rerum when
they discover Saruman has an army heading their way on March 2nd and it's the very next morning March 3rd that he shows up at Helms Deep with urken brand all right that out of the way back to the interview I'm sure you've been asked a million times yeah just this weekend um about a cosmere cinematic adaptation yes and I've watched enough of your podcast to know and something I really appreciate is it's very clear that you know uh making money on the IP as they say is not your highest on your priority list we've done
well enough that we don't have to care yes and I love that so I'm curious to look at this from a different perspective what is high on your priority list when it com to that's been a question I'm asking myself a lot lately um because uh ever since the kickstarter my my cache in Hollywood has increased if you're not aware I had a very big Kickstarter a few years ago years go um and um what I really want is I want a filmmaker with passion and for the material and talent to do it justice now
I don't know how contentious the Peter Jackson films are on your channel right um I think they're pretty positive pretty positive they people are all right with the change you know to Sam leaving and you know Aragorn's character there's definitely a a a range of like how okay you are with some of those okay cuz I tend to be very okay with the changes but I wouldn't I consider myself a tolken fan but not a tolken scholar and so I I consider like it the gold standard of yeah yes in the books Sam never left
and Frodo never got mad at him but cinematically you can understand why you can understand why and also he's condensing so many words into a few scenes that it gets the same Emotion by actually heightening it you know and I'm okay with Aragorn kind of having more of an un about being King because I'm sure he did at some point but you know he's passed that by the time the books start but um I feel like these sorts of changes really worked um and you also have kind of a great vision now if I were
made Lord of the Rings would I include some of those kind of horror scenes that come from Peter Jackson's horror background where he really likes when the heads get chopped off I don't know if I would but he had a vision and a passion and knew the property and was a really skilled filmmaker we're seeing the same thing in Dune uh Dune is the same sort of gold standard yes there's changes um but I think that um the Visionary filmmaker plus a sincere love of the source material um has a couple of times led to
just genius Works um I need that and the problem with that is you can't invent that that's true right you can't just go to Spielberg who is I think our greatest living filmmaker and if he doesn't have passion for the topic right him you can't make him have passion for it um though Spielberg just did you see the news he's doing maybe doing old man's War which is such a perfect match for him I don't know if you've read that book but old man war is great and schol is a friend and that's a it's
a really good match for Spielberg so I'm excited by that um but regardless um that's what I want I want that filmmaker who has their really powerful but it's so hard to match somebody like that with actually a passion for the source material I feel like a lot of them will go way off board because they are creative people who want to make their own story um rather than that and so you know like when Nolan made um made the prestige The Prestige he did that's I'm just doing books to film The Prestige book and
the prestige film are just both really good yeah chef's kiss um so that's what I want um where can I I can't facture that right uh and it's so hard in Hollywood to tell if someone's telling you the truth when they say I am that so yeah now we're we're just have a couple minutes here so I have a lightning is round that I like to do with people favorite tolking book uh favorite tolking book is probably two towers okay uh favorite middlee character favorite Middle Earth character I mean I'm going to be so cliched
right uh it's it's it's Sam is it anyone does anyone say anyone other than Sam oh yeah we a variety you get a variety okay well it's Sam Sam that's a great choice though um favorite Middle Earth location uh favorite Middle Earth location M wow there's a lot of good ones yeah um so that's tough um because um I'm gonna go with Helms Deep just because it is the best example of that narrative structure that I've ever found and I just love it so and it feels you know it's so dark and it's so yeah
so Helm's Deep go fil deep um this this next one's from my 13-year-old is uh when when will the next mistborn book come out next mistborn book so I'm writing it starting in January oh great um and I'm not going to release it till I have all three of this next Trilogy written so it depends on how long it takes me to write all three then we'll start revisions and get the first one out so it might be three or four years okay good to know okay uh last question this might be a little silly
but storm Stormlight books in particular you know you're known for these big thick books um I'm curious do you ever have nightmares that ants are real that they're going to come for you they're going to come for me uh well you know these days fortunately for the ants the majority of my um my books are sold in audiobook and ebook um that said uh tree beard my grandfather was a lumberjack um so if you're coming for anybody I mean you know it it might might be me I come from a from a line of lumberjacks
um from for several Generations so well Brandon thank you so much for taking the time I really appreciate I've Loved diving into your world um just been inhaling the books like I said my 13-year-old is a huge fan now too and he's been inhaling the books and uh I I'm now you know a sander fan as they say and uh I I I think I'm going to be a little bit of a uh sander evangelist if I can coin that term to you know to my uh my audience here because it's a uh just a
wonderful series and I think it's a a great uh overlap you know the fandom of tolking and the your fandom uh there's a lot lot of people in both boats here uh that I've met well thank you Matt I appreciate coming on the channel
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