Steroid Statistics Are SHOCKING | Justin Harris, Dave Tate's Table Talk #301

One everyone you know at an elite level at a sport especially an untested but probably even a tested sport is using Peds MH uh so it's really not in the equation because everyone's using it and I'll use some data roughly like 3 million people in the US every year use Peds use antibiotics there's only 300 some million people period so you're talking one in a 100 Americans use drugs period Well only 50% are men and 99% of P users are men so you're down to already 150 million you know and then 150 you're down to

you know 150 or whatever already sure but then if you if you take it like you know babies aren't doing it and 100y old men aren't doing them so if you say like 18 to 49y Old Men you got like what 60 70 75 million Americans so three and 60 three and you know so you got one in 20 one in 25 adult men use Peds do one [Music] [Applause] in it's time to sit down keep it real cut the [ __ ] welcome to table talk all right guys we're back with another episode of

table talk today my guest again is Justin Harris and Tom Shepard will be on the assist he's got a bunch of questions for Justin which I thought would be a good idea because we've had Justin out one two three four four times and then we just posted a compilation which was like 11 hours you know so There there's a lot of content to where different angles on the content and getting to some things we might not have talked about before would be good as well so before we jump off with that um yeah I got

to bring up the arm wrestling thing cuz you kind of brought it up yeah you know what my headphones just headphones went out oh they're in and out I think the connection's bad yeah I'll mess with them quick okay I'm in now yeah just keep going all right so What what's what the arm wrestling thing I really don't remember how that started I don't remember at all uh you know like it just I I really fell out of training late last year with between the supplements and and coaching and then team tooning and then our

other stuff it was it just got to be all I did was work and you know like you know first couple days you're busy it's like I'll just I'll just take a couple days off and then eventually it's like geez I have Trained twice in you know three months and I just kind of I don't even I don't even remember if it was a conscious decision I think I maybe I met someone who arm wrestled Dave Shay uh he's like the number two uh number one 242 in Michigan he tore his b up recently too

number two overall uh somehow got in touch with me and so I drove over to Detroit and pulled with them and I you know I had no idea what I was doing showed me some Things that I they said I did really well I was like this you know this kind of interesting so I went another time uh and then uh Roger kaning Ham's the number one guy in Michigan he's kind of more up north northern the lower Peninsula I drove up and pulled with them uh Chris Hazelton I think is he's the number one

left-handed guy and I pull with him and they you know they said yeah did you could do really well I mean I have thick joints you know big Forearms so like I'll try it you know and I and I got I jumped right into it where I was like it was something to train for again I look forward to working out again and so I was going to do the Michigan state championships and I met uh Anthony Brewer who's a good friend now he did he did uh he just started a business actually I try

to get everyone to start their own business but um he installed an outdoor cereal system for me that's like badass and uh and so We were pulling once a week and I was really learning a bunch it's it's just such a different sport than you know like you know I you just go you know to the side you don't do anything to the side you pull back you it's all pronation and it was like kind of it started getting interesting like Wonder at how this all works and uh so I just got really into it

and then the day before my the Michigan state championships taking the boat cover off Holding with my left arm I slip decide not to let go and so yeah yeah and I decided the worst part is it's my forearm and my bicep is torn but the tendon is still intact mhm so it's like you know so I got ultrasound and they're like you can't you know like it's hard to see there's obviously damage I can't the t is not completely torn I don't know if we can repair anything so they were going to do an

MRI and then by then you know you schedule the ultrasound It's like two weeks 3 weeks there was already a month before that scheduled and then like it just time was taken and then that the results from that a week later then they want to schedule the MRI two more weeks later and by then it had been like 6 weeks I was already training again you know and I was like I don't want to get it repaired and then take two 3 months off start over from scratch I don't care what I look like so

yeah that's where I'm at now so I really it Sucks because like an idiot I went and announced to the World on in Instagram that I'm doing arm wrestling and then well you were yeah just never actually did it what was it like my headphones are still out I can't hear anything what was it like kind of just going into a sport and just being able to get new begin gains was that was that a big part of feel was AES about it cuz you yeah like cuz you like I started reading online like what

there's certain kind of There's like there's certain lifts you know it doesn't translate exactly but there's like a rise lift pronation you know uh just and there's kind of standards of where and so you can kind of track you know you start out here and it's like like newbie games like every time I'm getting stronger and so that's like it was it was a blast it was fun uh the the soreness was something I've never experienced because you're basically doing uh RP 10 Negatives for hours you know everything you know and it's all Max effort

and half the time you know and anytime you lose you're doing a slow Ecentric with everything you have so I can't even explain the soreness I thought I broke I thought my arm was broken the first time I'm like there's no way this is just muscle I can't even hold a cup of water MH uh you know and the the joke in arm wrestling is you know it's great it just it only hurts the first year that's what They all say but you it's it's might be hard to get across to maybe someone who hasn't

been at a really high level in a sport how you know when you're up at that level you're you're working your ass off of like0 five of a percent here and there or one pound of stage weight so then to have a breath of fresh air where you can go into a new Endeavor that you're motivated to do and just see progress like actual progress on a regular basis is like sh I haven't Experienced this for decades you know yeah yeah no I was as excited to train as I had been probably in at least

a decade you know I was excited to go down and train I was making time for it I was kind of timing my meals a little bit for it you know like things I I had done since 10 years or more so so with the the soreness that you're experiencing I mean I I didn't do arm wrestling but at University I took up MMA for a couple of years and uh you know the first couple Of armar sessions and stuff like that you wake up the next morning being like what have I done to myself

so what did you did you start to include anything just helping you get over that like the tendon and the joint soreness or anything like that yeah I I should have bought stock in bp1 157 tv500 cuz I was spending some money on that which didn't seem to help much uh did that I tried like all the little peptides cuz that's another interesting thing was like you Know because you that world's a little different cuz you don't want to get pumped cuz P if you're pumped you're done you know so you want to so like

they don't it's they're not trying to like do like things that make you really full or or even like regular peeds it's all just like tendon it's all tendon you know so I was trying every like you know every peptide I could find that would help tendon strength and uh but it was the the yeah the soreness was just it Was like it's hard to even explain but it was that like cuz I have like iron elbows you know I can do I've never I could jump into skull Crush at 225 with no warmup and

be fine it's kind of like always been my thing but even my elbows were well I would get so swollen here like so pain it would be swollen you could like visibly swollen and you could like it' have like aema but yeah yeah it was really interesting and like I learned like it's weird genetics you Know cuz I was very close to being the genetics for that are really weird a lot of the good guys are really tall and lanky with huge hand like long huge hands like long levers yeah and because cuz what you

do you're not actually pulling them most of the time it's called a top roll they're trying to open their hand up like that so you're pulling like this and so if their hand if their fingers wrap way around it's really hard to open them up my problem Is I'm like so you want like a thick thumb because that gives you better leverage for pronate but you also want long fingers like I have really thick hands and thick you know thumb muscles and then these tiny little like like something's wrong with my fingers my M was

drinking alcohol the day the fingers develop so that was my problem cuz everyone else would they'd wrap around and their fingers would wrap all the way here on my hand and mine would be like Here so they're pulling like that so I was really susceptible to the top roll but because my wrists are really thick and my forearms are short and thick if I could get someone in a hook I felt really almost like Invincible I felt re even guys like the like the really good arm wrestl if I could get them in a hook

I felt like I could hang with anyone but if they got out of my fingers it was was I mean I I think I've I it seems to be becoming a more common Pathway to go From powerlifting or strength Sports into arm wrestling yeah Brian Shaw Larry Wheels yeah do you think do you think for some it's I know you said how sore you were but it's a way of replicating the intensity you know like so that RP 10 all our effort in that oneon-one you know say you're someone who can't Max effort Squat and

deadlift and stuff like that anymore do you think that's a big part of the pull to it is that it's something that is we're going to say Safer it's not safe maybe it's safer but still allows you to achieve those levels of straining that you kind of become accustomed to absolutely and I've said this every time I leave like a sport you know it's like one of my earliest memories is my what those big red plastic bats my dad pitching to me and I remember hitting a ball over our swing set into the sun you

know and my dad like jumping up and down was probably the first big hit ever had I was probably like three so all I remember is competing and getting better at something and working you know baseball then then football then bodybuilding and powerlifting was always and each time like you kind of age out of it and it gets taken from you and it's like you know the first time was like when I was done with Football in college uh and something I'm I haven't announced I'm I'm getting inducted in the Elma College athletics Hall of

Fame This fall just starting right now so like you know when that was over it's like you know what now and so that's how bodybuilding came out it's like ah another thing to compete and then when like I kind of knew I mean I left bodybuilding early but I I knew like by then I met Steve Kow was training with him and it was obvious you know he didn't have Ronnie Coleman genetics and but it was obvious his genetics were Better than mine so like and then I went to powerlifting same thing kind of like

when I I kind of left that too early too then I had some like hip problems but each time it's like how like I've competed my whole life what now and so it was really nice to have that again like like yeah like you said something to strain something to compete like you know like I think there's like an inner drive like I don't want to go fight someone but if there was like a Fight Club I was like you know we'll be friends after this is just purely just uh you know just me versus

you see see who's better when it's over it's over you know I like I love that stuff and so it was really cool to have that again but yeah and I think that gets underestimated right I was just talking to Danny over there who's training where you know she's had to dial her uh training down a lot over the last six months or so and people I think we People really underestimate how much of a part of your character being an athlete or being a competitor in something becomes and if that piece of the puzzle

just gets ripped right out of you because it's an injury or you have to give up your sport like you you have to fill that with something you can't just leave that gameing you know what I mean it's a part of your identity it's a part of why you get up in the morning and you know as you've as you probably You kind of alluded to there when the motivation to train and compete goes so does the eating and everything else because it's they're all the same habit built around this identity so you know you

just have to redefine what means strong or whatever to you so you can keep going that habit thing I think is a bigger thing Than People realize cuz I always think like the guy who gets drunk every night after work is really not much different than the guy who go Trains powerlifting or because it's that thing you do after work you know like you do all this crap all day I got to pay bills I got to drive to work I got to all these things that every every minute of your life is doing something

you don't want to do because you have to you know and you get the this one thing you get to do for yourself you know and like it's hard not to have that are you looking to boost recovery enhance your sex drive and improve performance in the Gym do you think your hormones are out of whack and you're tired of getting the runaround from your doctor you know things like your hormones are just fine stop lifting heavy weights etc etc etc I know what that feels like as I been down that road most of my

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let's go go with Peds drugs so that you know let's put a put the information out there for all the lifters some athletes including bodybuilders take drugs let's let the shock of that just settle down for a second so when it comes to using performance-enhancing drugs there's kind of let's say a misconception that like Trend goes in Tren stays as Tren in the Body does what Tren does leaves the body whatever when in reality it's never that simple right it gets cleaved and processed differently different people which is why some people respond well to some

drugs and others so in your opinion what are either maybe your process or the process that others should follow when it comes to individualizing their own usage of PEDs I'll try to get this without uh I'll try to Center on it eventually but I'll say One everyone you know at an elite level at a sport especially an untested but probably even a tested sport is using PDS MH uh so it's really not in the equation because everyone's using it and I'll use some data roughly like 3 million people in the US every year use Peds

use anabolics there's only 300 some million people period so you're talking one in a 100 Americans use drugs period Well only 50% are men and 99% of ped users are men so you're down to already 150 million you know and then 3 divide 150 you're down to you know 150 or whatever already sure but then if you if you take it like you know babies aren't doing it and 100y old men aren't doing them so if you say like 18 to 49y Old Men you got like what 60 70 75 million Americans so 3 and

60 three and you know so you got one in 20 one in 25 adult men use Peds do one in 20 adult men even have a gym membership you know so basically when you go to the gym Everyone who's there regularly has tried peeds so yes they are you're not going to be at top level really unless you're like a Julius Maddox or like but you're not going to be at a top level of any really any strength endurance you like exertion sport without using them so but everyone's using them so they're not they're really

not in the equation that's a great breakdown their way putting it so like you have to understand that so there's clearly more So my so knowing that my thought is okay muscle growth is hard Pro strength is hard you don't go to the gym and just add strength every workout it's really hard to H happen and it comes in spurts usually and you don't know when it's going to happen so I would think when I see like these crazy short Cycles 8 weeks of taking everything it's like yeah you're super anabolic you're really you're going

to get strong as hell but how much progress can you make in two Months so my Approach is how can we so what what what limits your use is health reasons you know you know Health damage your blood work things like that so what can we do to maximize the amount of time we're using things that that increase our ability to get stronger and more muscular and faster and endurance and minimize the risk of health problems and so that's what I try to do is long cycles of mild compounds now if you're like in bodybuilding

doing a contest Prep or you're powerlifting in a meat prep you're like for like the final 10 weeks for both of those that's different you're going to have to do some harsh things but the rest of the year I tell everyone testosterone you know it's about as bioidentical as you can get you know test is best that's a phrase for a reason that and then find an anabolic you respond well to that doesn't cause problems you know like EQ is one that's generally mild but gives some people Anxiety it uh causes some esea at the

Aral capsule in the kidneys so there's some risk for that but that's a pretty mild one my favorite is primalan and so I guess if you like my base goto if I say we don't know what you respond well to we don't know anything let's do test and pabin primin has a natural AI effect you know it's DHT derivative it's really mild so you can do a test in Primo cycle and really push the doses pretty high you don't have to worry about using an AI for most people you don't have to worry about your

blood work being blown out you don't have to worry about your liver CU you're not doing orals so your estrogen decent range you're you know you're not liver toxic you're not especially kidney toxic so that's kind of what I start with and then we find what the you know because primon is a generally a painful injection post injection pain I think it's a larger crystal structure causes more Inflammation to the tissues so we kind of start there and see how you respond I try to avoid orals I try to stick to injectables try to find

mild compounds that you can kind of push the dose without affecting Health negatively and then we just extend that as long as possible sure and then oh also so you need to build because I guess what I was going to start with that is so everyone's using Peds so really what it comes down to is what the how you can Maximize what the P do and that means you need to be able to eat better eat more and train hard and so if you're using really harsh compounds and you're getting like test flu you're not

going to train hard if you feel like you have the flu if you're using harsh orals and you can't eat you're not going to be able to grow if you can't eat so we have to find things that you can eat that you're not lethargic that you don't feel achy and you know feverish on and then Just extend the timeline as long as possible sure so that's that's say test test base is kind of a given right You' you've mentioned Primo bowling there what would be your other candidates that you would say anyone who's going

to be in this sport for a long time you know probably owes it TOS to try those to see which ends up being the one that suits them the best daak is one that's hit or miss people who respond well do it respond really well people who are Sensitive to you know the prolactin or progesterone whatever the various like kind of pseudo estrogen effects of it might not be able to use that so I guess test with either uh Deca MPP Primal or EQ is pretty much my standard sometimes masteron maybe but I'm not really

a fan of that year round but that's another the reasoning behind that it's just a little too dry low it can lower estrogen a little too much I mean you don't want Rock Bottom estrogen you don't want high Estrogen either but estrogen's really in the right range generally pretty healthy it improves bone density you know helps your lipids a little bit you know because if your blood androgens are high your lipids are always going to be bad you're not going to have an androgenic blood profile and have high hdlm LDL which is you know not

going to happen so we want estrogen high enough to not Hammer that the lipids any more than necessary but you know low enough that You're not getting gyno sure so are there any kind of let's say not warning signs but characteristics about a person that might give you hints as to what they might respond but so let's say someone who you know is maybe just used testosterone and is prone to gyno or is prone to water retention if they take small amounts of G or something are there like signs that maybe people can use to

say like oh well maybe this is One I should avoid given X yeah and I don't want to say these cuz these are like I'll say this is what I've seen I've worked with a lot of people but it's still like from a research study standpoint it's not a large population but it seems like people who were overweight younger tend to be more uh susceptible to estrogen and so those people would be more like probably won't use Deca uh they they seem to not respond well to that a lot of them are Prolac and sensitive

um and the people who are kind of well EQ is interesting because like you've in this sport long enough you see how how things go I remember in like the late '90s early 2000s no one touched Bown because it was useless it was only raises red blood cells help you eat more it doesn't do anything useless well now I see all the time that people can't take it because it causes anxiety and it's like well I mean I'm sure it Does for some people and if someone's like an anxious person I might look for that

but it's funny because I'm like well 20 years ago no one would touch it because it was so weak it did nothing now no one will touch it because it causes anxiety so it's kind of like that like people who overweight when they were younger or especially if they had gyno through puberty are you know probably going to be riskier with you know with tus too High riskier with Deca we won't do anything like with dball or orals like that but yeah I mean it's it's like really it's you know there's there's not that many

compounds what is like less than 50 total you know and so it's I would say probably 60% of people are going to maximize their progress as far as hypertrophy now strength is a little bit different but it's but in the outside of meat prep I think it's still pretty similar well that was going to be My next question know if someone were a strong man or a powerlifter or a weightlifter would your would your answers change at all slightly but not for most of the year because I think there's two seasons there's a season where

you're trying to improve in your sport and there's a season where you're trying to Peak for an event when you're peeking for an event that you got to throw the kitchen sink you know if you're going to be the best best you can Be especially trying to be in the best in the world it just is what it is you know you got to play the game our goal is to get to that rough for me it's roughly 10 weeks out of the game get to that point healthy as as possible so you can feel

comfortable throwing the kitchen sink at it knowing that you'll come out clean on the other end and then you're going to have that whole rest of the year again with the milder stuff so I'd say probably 60% of people are Maximized in that aspect with testosterone permaban GH and Insulin that's it you know and then other than that really it's really just changing the antibi between do you resp respond better to mppp or Deca do you respond better to EQ bone do you respond better to Prim Bond are you someone who is super estrogen dominant

and you need to use Maston you know okay but like that's really about it you know and then people seem to be either either they get gyo From estrogen or they never ever have to worry about estrogen they can do grams of test no AI be fine but they might be PR prolactin sensitive or and that's changed over the years like I I see how blood work people get gyo where their estrogen's normal but prolactin high so I just call it prolactin gyo people will kind of argue like what what is actually going on with

that and I don't claim to be like a hormone specialist so I just say well on blood work the prolactin High they they're getting gyos so we'll we'll use a doam energic instead of an AI and we'll stick to things that don't raise prolactin but we'll avoid deck we avoid MPP but I mean really like that's it you know then again in meat prep or bodybuilding prep you're going to bring the you know the harsh anderen testin you know you maybe dball you can probably use anavar for sure anavar is another anavar is kind of

the only oral I would say for offseason use is Probably okay just because of how mild it is in terms of side effects like you can you can tolerate it for long enough that it has a purpose there yeah and it's one of those things like 50 milligrams a day doesn't really seem to kill blood work much at all for men and that's a pretty good dose people feel it you know yeah well like anadra 50 is like I mean that's like the starting dose basically you know and that that that yeah screw things up

do you think Do you think anavar just kind of suffers in that regard cuz it seemed as like a female drug yeah probably guys presume that if it's it can't do anything for them I think it used to be a lot more and I think it that's changed and I don't want to say names because I don't want to speak for other people but I think because a lot of prominent people have mentioned that they're they're a fan of it you know I I I don't really want to say names but there's some Bigname powerlifters

who who kind of said yeah I'm basically on a low do year round of it I feel great great pump you know good blood volume doesn't affect my blood pressure doesn't go Skyhigh you know I feel good I can eat and so but yeah it it seems like the the female aspect of it all through the 2000s like I never see men using it but like after about 2015 or so it seems like and that kind of dates who these big names are but the people that were kind of big Around that time were fans

of it and it's kind of changed that perception so what what your opinion on um coaches then who were proponents of like Deco or EQ only Cycles what do you think the is behind those and when would that maybe be an appropriate Avenue if if at all for someone uh and I I I have a had a client who turned Pro who used deck only uh in the off season and his test last R was 700 I don't understand how that worked at all uh I I don't have a real strong belief on it I

just kind of try to look at things from like first principles and I'll say if you talk to a guy from the 80s they use test you talk to a guy from the '90s they use test talk to you know yeah you you talk to a guy maybe in the a few years in the 70s and you talk to a guy maybe the last three years you'll talk to someone who's done Deco only cycle so I think it's a fad probably it might not be you know and in 40 years You might say like yeah

obviously that's what everyone uses but for right now I look at well you got a you have a a large population a lot of years of people trying different things and these certain things have kind of stuck the Tesla's bestass has really stuck pretty well you know obviously people try to throw things in and the other problem is is when you try something new and it's expensive and you're worried it might not work your brain really tries to Convince you yeah cuz I remember when GH first started being affordable in the mid 2000s you'd go

on any this when the message boards around you go on any message board and you could find a thread I started GH amazing I'm leaner than I've ever been bigger than I've ever been and I'm eating like [ __ ] pizza every day I'm just getting leaner it's like well no you're not because I I see your pcks and in two years I'll see your picks again but like you spend all that Money back then it was expensive you spend all that money your brain's like this is awesome you know and you do get that

fullness from it so you convince yourself that and I think that's the problem is you have really a several year period of that where you have a guy trying a new thing he's so excited he's pumped to train he's F train he's probably eating better he's training harder he's doing this new cycle wants to maximize it so he thinks it's great He tells his whole circle of influence that it's great then they try it and they that extends you know it can extend 3 four 5 years before people are like you know what I'm really

not bigger than I was last year you see that um I always used to remember seeing that with like you know when test boosters were like the big supplement right and like guys would be like oh I've made so much progress in the last 12 weeks you know cuz I bought these two bottles of horny Goat weed or whatever it was and it's like know what you did was you thought oh well I spent 300 bucks on these two bottles of pills so I'm going to train harder I'm going to eat better I'm going to

sleep more and then lo and behold in three months those always amazed me too because it was cheaper to buy the real [ __ ] yeah it was always like what do you I don't get you know it's the world's most expensive Placebo crazy and it's the only place Where the placebo is more expensive oh there was in the around 2000 there was can't remember the biotech Labs I can't remember there was a an effervescent GH product who knows what was I don't remember was in it but it certainly didn't raise GH but it was

like the it was like $300 for a kit that would last like 20 days you dissolve it in water and you had to take it at like 3:00 a.m. in the middle of the night see set so of course like I Remember guys in college getting it and be like this this like this is better than GH growth hormone you know so guys would take it and the second they did it where are they eating at the at the cafeteria they're not eating pizza anymore they're like I I just spent 300 bucks on this crap

I got go up at 3:00 a.m. they're eating chicken and steak and rice and you know eating perfect I'm not no you going out drinking no [ __ ] no but I spent $300 on this [ __ ] I got to Train today so of course you could have make better progress I always used um how would I Define test math so if it was $300 over 20 days and I'm paying $30 a bottle of test like you know I could buy 10 bottles of test and if I blasted all that in 20 days my

God I'm sure it's going to work way better you know with the reality is I have a funny story about that and I don't want to say all names but I'll say the pro bodybilder name ke I was I was coaching Kevin Leone's cousin younger cousin and he this is in the early 2000s so GH was real expensive and he had been saving up to buy GH for his prep so he showed me a Tex chain no it must have been it was in a text chain he must have just told me maybe it was

CU you still did the thing where you had to type the number three times to do the text and uh it was with Kevin he's telling me he's like ke he's like that's great he's like just keep saving up your money save up your money Save up your money and then right prep start starts take all that money and buy testosterone perfect just to backtrack just a tiny little bit to what we speaking about there um with your suggestions on having a longer term approach to Cycles because it actually gives you a window in which

to make progress does does that stand possibly even more true for those who are naturally low responders or let's say people who are not so genetically gifted Because obviously their growth even with anabolic their growth rate is going to be lower so the them blasting six or eight weeks worth of whatever there is no matter what you do there's their progress is and you can do the math and it blows my mind and I've said this several times and then the comments are always get really upset but say you added 10 pounds of muscle in

on year MH so assume you did for 365 days you grew evenly well if you take 10 lbs convert It to grams and divide by 365 and take the fact that muscle only 30% protein structures that's uh that's four gram per day that's all how much muscle you build four grams of protein per day that's it it's so slow so let's see you you know like you you do this massive cycle and you increase your rate of growth 50% that's six grams a day then do six grams for eight weeks there's nothing you know so

the only way to add a substantial amount of size or add a Substantial amount of strength is time because it doesn't have you're not adding 40 pounds on your bench every week you're adding Z pounds half the time and a few nuggets here and there so you want to maximize the number of nuggets you get really yeah so that's like it like yeah who Paul senson used to do those crazy cycles and I'm sure you were hyper anabolic you might have been three times as anabolic but if you're only three times anabolic for two Months

out of the year that's you're you're three times as anabolic for one sixth of the year you're losing half your gains was he the one that was advocating in one of the books to take the whole kid at growth at one day yeah all at once yeah yeah it's like yeah that's great so what maybe you triple your growth instead of four G now you get you get 12 G you know do do 12 gam and add that up for 2 months you you added nothing if you drink a glass of Water that that's more

weight than you gain yeah so the only way to make progress is you need to increase the rate of progress above Baseline for as long as possible one extra gram of muscle for 3 5 days is you know that's a pounds of muscle doubling your rate of growth for two two months adds less than less than an ounce you know a few grams of muscle it's not it's nothing so do you think that is maybe just indicative of Greater problems in our maybe Society Or at least in the fitness industry where people are too shortsighted

when they're planning their training their dieting phases and their their drugs everything everything's always happening for8 or 12 weeks and when in reality once you've been doing it for 2 3 years whatever you know nothing really happens in that you know you lay some foundations you make it but know is is a big part of where a lot of people are perhaps going wrong and they just need To be have a longer sighted approach with maybe everything that they're doing and I think it's a weird thing because it should be obvious because with social media

everyone's growth rates in front of us but it's it amplifies the other direction because we only see them chunks here and there and I use Nick Walker as an example all the time like 2012 wasn't that long ago I mean it was but if you're young but for like that was last week you know well everyone can See what Nick Walker looked like at his first contest at 2012 compared to what he looks like now so it looks like boom he exploded overnight but he gained 100 lb in 12 years you know that's less than

10 lb a year that's less than a pound a month you know that's less that's a few grams a week that's it so you know like but the problem is you you see them you see them post and then you don't see another picture of them for a month and you so you see yourself every day and You're seeing these other guys once a month and so that you see eight pictures of them you see them over a year where eight times you see yourself is eight days so I think think we see that and

see like wow he's gr so fast but really if you break it down even the most like big Ramy added something like 100 lb in 4 years which is outrageous but even that's you know 20 you know 25 lbs a year that's outrageous but that's 2 PB a month you know this weighs more than 2 Lbs I I'll weigh I'll weigh 2 pounds more after drinking this and not peeing than big Ramy gain in a month as the fastest human growth rate in history and so that like it's it's it's weird because it should be

obvious us we can see their rates of growth and that's what we should expect but because we only see them in chunks it seems like every time we see them they look bigger it is because we only see them every every few months or whatever sure so you You mentioned going back there like you know say the quartet that's probably best for most people test prolan growth insulin so let's go down the insulin route for just a minute even amongst people who will take 5 600 Mig of Tren swallow a handful of Halo testing or

MTR or whatever those individuals will still often come out with comments like I won't touch insulin so first off why do why do you think there's still a hangup over insulin when and I get it if you Took way too much we all know right we can Al we can also say the same for epidrin T3 Clen bual and nobody has taken the same approach water that that girl that won one that tried to win a PS5 or whatever drank or something so is it is there a lack of education on it because it's slightly

newer perhaps or do you think there's some other reason why people are more hung up on it and I don't want to say lack of Education it's not I mean it's your job to be educated What you're interested in but everyone's not a medical expert everyone's not a it you know it's impossible to be an expert and everything so it's not really their job and so you get what you're fed on the internet and we see it really bad with like politics or anything you know like you know like depending on where you find the

political Spectrum you get a completely separate news you get totally different internet than than someone's on a different part of the Country with a different and so like you get what you're what you're fed and insulin's Hyper frustrating to me because it's not I say it's not the the lay person's job to understand insulin sensitivity sensitivity of the tissues uh pancreatic insufficiency blood sugars and insulin and all these things they don't understand it so what I see all the time now is like bantis use which drives me crazy because people like oh my blood sugar's

you know I any once he Was elevated I started taking lantas my insulin sensitivity is all improved now likeing no your insulin sensitivity is worse your blood sugar is improved because you're adding more insulin just like an alcoholic stops going through DTS when he drinks a couple drinks that doesn't mean he's not an alcoholic that just means he took something that stopped the effect of it and so that's that's one problem with it and then the other thing with insulin is they they Hear that I mean I don't want to say insulin's not dangerous because

if you take too much but the thing is there's a really interesting we're good at surviving by the fact that we're here you know and you don't have to know what a carbohydrate is you might have no idea what a Mac is what right if you get low blood sugar you're going to find some sugar it's I always say like people like how do you how will I know if I'm going hypo and I always say it's like it's Like you'll know it's how you know when you had an orgasm you know like when you're

a kid you might not know what it is but when you have one it's like oh yeah I know I've had one now you know when you're going hypo it's as weird you your whole world turns into sugar you don't even need to know what sugar is but you're going to find it and put it in your body but yeah yeah I don't know if that even answered the question no no that's help so like for for the the Average athlete hypertrophy strength whatever it may be what are they going to get from introducing insulin

other than taking a little bit of strain off the pancreas perhaps not having to produce its own what what are they going to see obviously it's going to depend a little bit on how they use it and when but in in general what are the enhanced effects that we would be seeing well I'll just my screen so I always think of receptors like this and so there's a Cell there's a receptor here insul comes by binds to the receptor it shuffles some protein around and it's almost like opening like the shower you know like when

you turn the shower think so the shower can drain or bath can drain and that that opens up and it floods amino acids and and and glucose into the muscle glycogen in the muscle so increases amino acid uptake at the muscle so provided you've done the things to create muscle protein a Stimulus for muscle protein synthesis you've eaten I mean you've trained created stimulus or eating eating also produces a stimulus almost as much as training and you've eaten all the essential amino acids so they're in the bloodstream there's a signal for muscle protein synthesis now

you add insulin to that it opens up the floodgates for those amino acids it just enhances everything so and like the the the the strain on the pancreas that that that is An issue but I've had I've worked with people for over 20 years and I've had two cases of pancreatic insufficiency every other case and that's separate from like the uh when the body attacks the beta cells with the long of the pancreas like type 1 diabetics that's probably an autoimmune disease I have seen pancreatic insufficiency where the body's not good at producing insulin beta

cells are just fine but what happens in like 99.9% of the cases is It's not the pancreas it's the tissues that receptor gets beat up so this receptor no longer accepts in some very well just cuz it's being hammered all the time and that's why I don't like lantis because you're hammering it even more so what I like to do again the like maximize the time with minimizing the side effects and so I always use as a base example and people don't do this as much anymore but this is more relevant the original insulin kind

of protocol Was use a fast AC insulin every workout so train 5 days a week you take Humalog Humalog lasts like 6 hours but there only like 3 hours where it's really super physiological so three times five is you have 15 hours of super physiological insulin levels but every single day or five days a week you're hammering extra insulin and damaging those receptors so I say well is there a better way to do that can we take advantage of that 6 hours and create an Overlap so we we you know after that 3 hours when

it starts dipping down it's still above Baseline but not enough to really affect it anything we have the next dose on and so those combined to keep us above Baseline so what I like to do is short acting insulin if you only use it one day a week three times you can get up to 18 hours of that super physiological level so you get three hours more than using it five days a week but you've only used it one day Week so you get more you know three more active hours and four less days where

where the tissues are desensitized so I like to look at it that way TR and I assume that day is going to be more anabolic in V coms right so with that also then perhaps be a day where calories are higher maybe you're training a body part that is a weak point or it's your toughest workout or or something like that absolutely yeah and carbohydrates because we want to Maximize the glycogen storage also so what I like to do with my carb cycling is I'll try to be quick with it is we on our on

our days off we kind of deplete a little bit in our most of our training days our regular days we normal bodybuilding power lifting diet where we're eating slightly in a surplus but not a massive amount and then we go into these high carbon days where we use insulin and we'll be depleted in glycogen and I'll use an extreme example But let say like someone like our side like the average adult male can store like 800 gram of glycogen so anyone who trains hard can probably store at least a thousand but let's say he can

store a th000 grams and let's say your basil metabolic rate allows you to eat because it will have lower protein on those days 250 grams of protein and 500 gram of carbs with minimal fat and and not store fat well if we're if we go into that day depleted of 500 gram of glucose and Glycogen and we can eat 500 G without storing fat that means we can eat a potentially 1,000 G store those 500 G which are excess calories so we are storing them but because we're glycogen depleted we've used insulin to force the

glycogen storage uh so so basically you eat more Cal than you burn you store them you do it the wrong way you store fat if you create this case where we're eating these extra calories in a in a way that that can be stored but not as Fat as glycogen then we can eat 1,000 grams of carbs store you know a a ton of C like two 2,000 plus calories of on the body but rather than fat we store it as glycogen and that whole time those floodgates are open making whatever protein we eat more

likely to be taken up into the muscle and synthesizes new muscle proteins sure so like as as far as my understanding goes like the dosage of insulin and the rgf1 activation are kind of dose dependent like you take More you get more right so in again to kind of magnify that effect then if we're purposely depleted and that allows us to eat 1,000 gr of carbs as opposed to to 500 and that in theory then also allows us to take more insulin not necessarily the more is always better that also allows us to increase that

igf1 response to the insulin on that day which maybe is the day again we're training a weak point and so it just all ends up blending together and Reinforcing each other and it's the same thing it's not like you're going to do that one time and notice a difference you know but if you do that uh you know for 10 years you're going to be dramatically bigger than someone who didn't do that from 10 years and GH is kind of the same thing to go with with igf I always say like GH is essentially CU

it doesn't really it's not anabolic which is confusing cuz everyone's like well if you known anyone took GH they Look pretty damn big but it's really not anabolic however we know it burns fat you know and so at any given calorie intake over a long enough period if GH is elevated you're going to have less body fat than if you didn't use it well if you eat the same number of calorie energy and you have so you have the same number of calories on your body and if at that end state if there's less body

fat those that that same amount of calories That's not body fat has to be stored as some other form of calories in the body which would be glycogen muscle you know so it might not be directly anabolic but if you're using it for 10 years and that entire 10 years you're you're storing less body fat burning more body fat carrying less body fat at the same calorie intake by necessity you that excess calories have to be stored somewhere on the body and it's going to it's going to accumulate his muscle mass And better glycogen storage

so in that in that scenario G for you really is like a nutrient partitioning more tool more than any like a background player that should I say yeah if you want to if you need to make progress in 12 weeks test load up on it you know you want to get really big really strong and blo it whatever but and GH is not going to make a difference in 12 weeks if you want to be bigger in five years GH is the way to go true yeah and that again so based Again on your kind

of philosophy of using cycles that allow you to maintain whatever dosage is for longer you know is that going to look like two IUS a day five use a or is it just what you can afford or there's going to there going to be a cut off this this is the Golden Age where finally what you can afford is kind of not the main driver that for historically that was the only driver where now it's like now you can afford almost as much as you want so it's Really uh from I hate to say for

most but up up to around five I use seems very lowrisk of side effects most people don't get any their A1C doesn't really Elevate uh you know basically all improvements you know they might like some issues but it's pretty minimal you get between 5 and 10 and some people that are like not genetically super gifted might start developing insulin sensitivity issues insulin resistance and some other things Uh and sometimes even gyno from the igf1 you see that guys that's like another shitty genetic thing some people get G right away from myf one uh and then

but for most people above 10 I use you're going to run into all those problems pronounce insulin desensitization insulin resistance you start getting long-term like that acromegaly type shapes you know where you kind of get like this like your your in say your tors is going like this it starts going Like that you get probably from the nerve compression the carpal tonel type syndrome you'll see a lot of bodybuilders lose this muscle you'll see a lot of guys lose like kind of call them turnup quads they'll lose their triceps and I think it's all from

that nerve compression so you're you're always weighing that and GH is really I mean you could do a whole talk on GH because yes it works let you stay leaner at any given calorie intake you get over Time you'll carry more muscle and less body fat doing nothing different you know but as a coach I noticed that as GH gets used gets much more prominent higher doses I have to get guys way leaner than I used to and I think a lot of it is because the th skin gets thickened over time you know part

of it is like uh conditioning rules have change guys have to have stried glutes now but if you like guys always talk about conditioning in the 90s most of Those guys had no no stried glutes at all a lot of them didn't have hamstrings but their skin was paper thin cuz no one was using GH yet now you get guys by the time they're highly competitive at the pro level might be using GH 5 10 years or more and their skin is thicker it seems like and so you have to get them you know 20

10 20% leaner to have the same essential look so guys and then combine that with the fact that everyone has to have hamstrings and stattic Glutes I feel like I have to get guys so much leaner than I used to especially older guys who have used GH almost to the point where it used to be like oh finally this guy's near in 40 we're going to be on nails conditionings that paper thin skin we're now it's kind of the opposite you see the guys in the masters with thick skin you know and that like kind

of all that ACR mallic body morphia change so is it does it almost become a poison chalice in the End cuz if it if you're a competitive bodybuilder in a in a long-term sense it allows you to carry less fat and more muscle at the same weight and the same calorie intake but if you need to get 2% body fat leaner on stage to look the same are you better off well I I I I I wrestle with that all the time cuz everyone calls the '90s the golden age right and so so like and

everyone so it's like well it seems like like those guys were using GH for contest bre Basically probably two or four IU so that's probably optimal yeah but if you can use 5 to 10 I use eat more stay leaner it's hard not to and then also you you know like you just weigh more your tendons everything else kind of thickens over time you know a lot of like go look at a front bicep from Master alanb in 1997 and tell me anyone is bigger than that now you know well there's there's 20 guys that

weigh more than him on stage or or Dorian at 260 You know how many guys compete at the Nationals above 260 now in shape you know it's common amateurs are weighing that much are they bigger than Dorian no but they weigh more it's just G is just a weird thing because I think ultimately the best physique and and I'll say I try to really look at things you look at this is you look at like the 60 like the 40s no one looked like go to 40s 50s then Like dball testosterone and duck whatever started

coming in the ' 60s boom Pro physique completely changed right and they kind of stayed that way you know and then you get the ' 80s and more compounds came into play and higher doses probably and physiques were kind of steadying but then what happened like the early 90s GH kind of came out 93 Dorian GH maybe insulin boom Another huge leap forward 96 I always say it was like the first insulin Olympia that First Olympia everyone was like full so insulin comes into play Boom physiques jump forward you get so that that takes you

to about the late '90s 2000s whatever we had since then much higher ghu Doses and peptides has the sport progressed and I hate to keep going to power bodybuilding when I'm on a powerlifting but this is just easier for me to visualize you know CU they're out there looking the way they look but you can look at well I shouldn't say Powerlifting numbers have increased and that you could argue J might play a role in that for tendon strength and stuff because guys are stupid strong now but if you look from a physique standpoint it's

like anabolics PDS you know steroids came into play huge jump forward growth hormone comes in huge jump forward in comes in he jump forward high do growth hormone and peptides the physiques aren't better that was literally a question I have written here So do you think peptides and serums are going to cause any kind of Leap Forward like GH and Insulin did they have not yet not yet why what the the way I was looking at it as where it could potentially help would be you know there seems to be a new peptide every week

right but like if we're talking you got like the thymosin um peptides now for thymos support for immune system You've Got Deep inducing peptide we've got tb500 and and bpc we've got peptides That support almost every system now do you think that maybe from an anciliary standpoint they might Aid the bodybuilders in their so what I mean is like if you're deep in contest prep your trend is high your calories are low but you can sleep because you've got deep sleep inducing peptide you're not getting sick or you or you can ramp your test up

because you don't get test flu because you're on this thyers P do you see them do you think they'll ever get Prominent enough to have an effect like that yes and no and I think the things we conflate are that there's performance and there's appearance and there's two completely different things like uh performance comes from the gym you know that's why powerlifters are impossibly strong but won't look as big as a bodybuilder appearance doesn't the gym plays a role but it's much a much smaller role and so what I think is all those things are

geared towards Improving performance yes and so sleep sleep if you're if you need to perform absolutely if you need to look like a bodybuilder I would argue sleep's not I mean and for sure for so oh you know you can't not sleep for a decade but no one sleeps in contest prep and they look amazing you know F most Pro bodybuilders sleep like [ __ ] Ronnie Coleman used to sleep 5 hours a day jakay Cutler's always said he's a crappy sleeper I think Phil Heath he might have said he Was good but most and

no one sleeps in contest prep I mean you get to where you're sleep like 2 hours a night and so you're a zombie you you never sleep less but you never look better you know and so I think all those things what what I think is ultimately going to happen is peptides are going to end up playing a massive role in sports focused on performance and I kind of saw that when I was like in arm wrestling peptide no one cared about steroids it's all Peptides you know F Statin igf-1 uh you know BBC anything

improve tenis strength improve recovery keep you healthy lot you know then you know like because that's the other thing PDS aren't that amazing for strength look at the tested powerlifting numbers versus the untested powerlifting numbers they're not that different like seven or eight% average I don't want to speak I don't want to speak for Julius Maddox but I was working with him when he did 777 his Test level is 250 gu had low te you know he's with Merck now I think uh but you like so like you know obviously you you're you're stronger but

like the untested numbers are with 10 within 10% of the you know and you get a hyper genetically gifted NFL you know offensive lineman and move into Power left he doesn't need take PDS they'll be freakishly strong so I think I think peptides are ultimately going to be cuz all those things sleep was going to Improve performance stay immune system is going to help performance tenis strength going to help performance I think that's what's ultimately going to come from peptides is performance sports are going to see a a Contin and you kind of could have

I mean I don't know how much that's played a role in powerlifting but bodybuilding is leveled off we haven't progressed since the late 90s his powering progress since late 90s [ __ ] yeah guys are like I mean my Numbers from 2008 I would I I get laughed at at a local meet when I you know I was totally Elite and you know winning best lifter and you know like it's insane how strong guys are I remember when an 800lb deadlift was you were elite elite you know there were a couple guys doing 900 and

when Andy did a th000 was like well that'll never get touched it's like how many 220 guys are suing 1,000 PBS now it's like you know and I remember one of the first big Strength videos on YouTube with some strong man doing 700 for s a deadlift I remember like f is that would would you even get views anymore of that no do you think that also is going to stand true on the female side of bodybuilding as well obviously female side um primarily limited by side effects they're willing to tolerate right so dosages obviously

are kind of capped at that yeah they're like almost 100% side effect do you see Any of those peptides maybe playing or or maybe other ancillaries that we have yet to see yeah perhaps playing a bigger role in their side of the sport where they're more naturally limited like they can't just blast that's a yeah thought about that if I I'm going to speak having not put a lot of thought into that but I'm going to guess that yes the potential for improvement is much higher for them but I think because of the type of

person who gets Into physique Sports it's going to be a detriment because uh like any like the pep like the igf-1 type peptides or anything like that has growth hormone type stuff that might affect waste width or something it's just how am I going to we it's why Synthol is a thing you know cuz you can do it and have it natural why does no one do that because you've spent your whole life trying to build bigger muscles and now you have a bigger muscle in a syringe when do you decide Your biceps big enough

you know when do you say yeah I'm not I don't want that to grow anymore you know I spent my whole life trying to get this muscle bigger I can get it bigger if the click of a button you know and that's why I think syth like why guys overdo it because there's a point where it looks good and it's better but you don't stop there because you don't want to stop getting bigger and it's really hard I think for guys to stop and I think it's Going to be the same thing like they would

they could find the perfect dose and really benefit from it but it's going to be really hard to not increase the dose past that and when you don't have the side the health side effects you know you're going to get the same thing the guys have done with the GH where we've kind of like we got all these like you know body habitat changes that that eventually I would say you get about 10 years the blasting GH and if You look at a lot of top bodybuilders they burst on the scene and you can kind

of see when they really put the hammer down and then go about 10 years past that you know Ronnie 96 to 2006 Cutler 2001 to 2011 at like King Kamali uh look at Phil Heath when he kind of like you know his stomach started it's always about 10 years and I think that's when those zegal this specific the growth hormone but I think you're going to say the same thing with the peptides I think They have a higher the females have a higher potential to benefit from it but without like because they they limit their

gear D doses because of side effects without the side effects limiting them I think you're going to see the same thing the guys did which is take everything too far so I suppose you could probably then apply the same to tested bodybuilding as well you know we can't test as of right now we can't test for peptides right so it that could be a Market where those things flourish there and I but I just my and I don't I hate saying this because it's not like this is my belief and I'm probably wrong you know

like most of things eventually but I just think most of those things are geared towards it creating a case where you can perform better and that's really not doesn't matter in bodybuilding you know like I always say like the like when you're it's like like the end stage of contest prep is I say look like Doesn't feel like Janee you know you look amazing you feel terrible you're not sleep you know your performance is terrible but you look amazing and I think those things all improve performance which I don't think is going to but you

know you know cycling uh powerlifting arm wrestling strong man all those things where a healthy immune system tendon strength connected tissue strength better sleep matter I think peptides will play a bigger role there Well if it's not peptides but we're to go down that same rout route and say um just m getting the side effects M right so blasting a ton of gear two decades ago or even a decade ago You' have to stop because the blood pressure is so freaking high and you're moon-faced and beat red and all this other [ __ ] but

now you can mitigate that which can you can take more yeah I would right well no no one's going to take no one has ever cut their doses for any moral and Noble Reason I hate when people say that no it's always because well if I did more I was going to die well exactly I mean and that's the whole thing with mitigating the side effect like if the dose is the same you mitigate the side effect it's probably the healthiest route to go but most of the competitors that I know if you're going to

mitigate that they're just going to jam the [ __ ] up even higher you're always redlining yeah which is You know to some degree Moors better right so then more is allowed to be us I see that yeah yeah yeah yeah so you can kind of move your you put like forged rods in and your rev limiter jumps up a little bit but you're still going to rev to the Limit yeah so so yeah I can see that I guess I just don't think the current peptides haven't produced a Leap Forward in progress that doesn't

mean you know they won't and I think it's going to have to be because there's no Research in anabolics you know nothing moving forward with that so my question would be has mitigating the the side effects provided a Leap Forward because essentially that could allow for higher doses uh I don't know that I shouldn't say that or are most people just not mitigating at all and just saying screw CU we can talk blood work till we're blue in the face but most won never do it that's a that's a it's better than it used to

be but still it's most most will Do it they just won't make a change when something's bad yeah I think there's potential for that I don't know I mean I shouldn't say cuz bpc I think is pretty standard now you know and you recover from injuries better tb500 is pretty standard I just I mean I don't want to take a hard line on it because I think that that has to be if there's going to be a path forward it's got to be in that that's the only active area of research and I And I

do think for the number of Pros bodybuilding puts out now the the quality the the guys winning Nationals winning usas hasn't plummeted which you'd expect to happen when it went from you know used to only the the only one North American's winner two people at USA is in weight clust of the Nationals you've you've gone from that to tripling or quadrupling number of people turn pro but you haven't seen a Forex decline in physique quality so Something is happening so I think ultimately like like the maximum Peak physique where you're talking about the one in

a billion genetics I don't think that's probably playing as big of a role but your middle ground genetics I think this is probably letting a lot of people who before when never broken in the top 15 at Nationals now are producing a physique that could potentially turn pro because they're able to push the doses higher they're you know yeah I can see That so it's not raising the ultimate upper ceiling but it's raising the ceiling of the middle ground well as as the dialogue and narrative around Peds has increased over the years right more people

are quote transparent where my perception on what most people are saying as far as when when they put their doses out is take that times five well you could yeah everybody yeah watch any podcast and you'll talk about you'll see see a guy Say yeah I never used more than 600 milligrams of this and then the next podcast he's giving a cycle and he's talking about 800 milligrams of that like it's you know it's hard it's hard to keep your lies straight when you're when they're lies but oh so yeah I would just say like

Fe I wish we I wish people were more open about it because I my biggest pet peeve is when a guy will be like do well and be like yeah I only took 400 milligrams Of test it's like were you dumbass you're risking your health you putting all your time and effort you shut your whole life off for four months and you were really good but if you did a normal Psy you could have been Mr Olympia you didn't for what for you know High Ground yeah no one no one's lowering dose for for any

Noble reasons it's everyone's doing what they can without without killing themselves basically you mentioned earlier now having the issue With having to get guys leaner not just because of the the growth hormone and the thick and skin obviously because of the expectations now that so obviously with stricter expectations in terms of leanness is going to increase the demand for fat burners so you know talk shifting a little bit from anabolics to clol T3 epidrin DMP BME you know all all those type of fat burners inverted commas how are we seeing a rise in those types

Of drugs now because of the requirements to be so lean and do you think that maybe between those and the diuretics that get used for competition prep that you know maybe enough is not and not not enough is put on that those are probably the things that are doing the real damage and a lot of people it's not the test and the EQ or the Primo or whatever it's the high Clan and everything else are we seeing a rise in that kind of usage and that thing maybe but I think Like what you just said

is like it seems silly that we even have to have this argument who's whose's blood work is terrible after the off season no one whose blood work is terrible after a contest prep you know or meat prep everyone's you know and so obviously like it's those stuff that we add in then you know you take a beta Agonist you know you're ramping up your heart rate your heart's Contracting harder CU what is the problem the the pathway that Kills people do Peds you take Peds your blood volume Rises the heart has to pump against more

pressure you know blood pressure so the heart gets muscle gets thicker that pressure damages the kidneys you know if you think of the kid they filter you know so see it's not a direct analogy at all but if you take a coffee filter and pour this on it that'll filter that water forever if I put a fire hose at that coffee filter it's going to start ripping it apart so That starts happening then your kidneys don't filter as well toxins build up in the blood blood you're not filtering urine out so your blood volume increases

blood pressure increases heart has to work against a higher pressure will add something that makes a pump even faster and harder against the higher pressure yeah I mean that's like yeah but I it's weird because I don't know that the total cuz a fedrin is harder to get it's not really because you can get at The pharmacy but it used to be you used to be able to buy hydroxy card or rip Fu get as much as you want so I remember guys doing 50 milligrams of a fedrin three times a day you can't do

that anymore unless you you're going to have to like Pharmacy shop and you're going to get on a meth list so you're kind of limited to like 25 milligram twice a day that's about it maybe a little more if you stock up all but you you get they put you on the you know you have to give Your ID and stuff so the Cen doses have gotten higher you know I see 200 micrograms all the time now yeah yeah and which I isn't really that ridiculous we I think we worry about Clint I think we

worry weird things about CL because CL is a 35 hour half life so I always remember you used to do the two on two off if you do say you take 100 say just for round numbers you take 100 micrograms of Clen for day one and day two do you know how much Clen is in your System day three 100 micrograms this is you know like you do the half life so you take two days off you didn't take any days off you didn't your blood levels didn't even decrease at all you got weeks before

it even stabilizes and then also people like the need like the think they need to take time off is who who who were they made for who are these asthma medications made for people with asthma does people only get asthma two days on two days off Or two weeks no they have asthma their whole life can you imagine if like they were like well got asthma here's this medication you got two good weeks after that bye you know so like the the wor just because that jitteriness kind of wears off people think it stops working

no it's still binding The receptors it's still dilating the bronchials it's still increases contractility of the heart and it's still binding The beta3 receptors and creep increasing thermogenesis so When those Jitters stop and the the kind of superficial symptoms subside that isn't the sign that oh [ __ ] it's doing less for me I need to bump out cuz that's usually what You' see right 20 micrograms until you stop shaking 406 you I mean that that kind of ladder approach yeah I use the I build up like that because the shaking sucks you know it's

not comfortable but yeah I mean can can you imagine also like think of the clinical use can you imagine like if you Had asthma and the only time it worked was you had to like be shaking you know like even that it's like this going to suck for a couple days or a week but then your body will get used to it and then you'll just be able to breathe and you won't be able jittery and shaky during the times I used it I just took it before I fell asleep so that way I just

slept through sleep yeah well that's that's Brave if you get it wrong though cuz if you if start it's really It's but it's really not because if it's 35 hour half life okay so if you don't even have to take it today and it's still full you know yeah it's yeah cuz I used to do the same thing it's a because that jittery only lasts like an hour if you can fall asleep before that hits you sleep right through it and you don't notice any different and your blood levels are really unchanged it seems weird

cuz it's like no I get that because it is a stimulant but it's like It's like you couldn't take a fedrin before bed and if you didn't woke up you're not no I I remember that my buddy and I at like 95 96 we first heard about minin and and noo and I remember we took it and I remember his mom kind of freaking out saying we were doing speedballs or something but I remember we took it we were in high school and we started playing Tomb Raider on on PlayStation one after and the next

thing you knew was at 6:00 a.m. and we were Still just [ __ ] wired he like maybe what do we do differently it's oh yeah we took speed balls at 6:30 at night the first time ever so um obiously on top we've got like DMP which is maybe less frequently used which yeah would probably good reason is weird because chronically it's one of the safer really so is acutely it's because well acutely it's hyper well because it's just there's some esea in the kidneys it does cause some I Can't remember what part of the

kidneys the distal tube some memia constriction so it can reduce kidney function over time but it doesn't affect the heart it doesn't do well it's not you know so provided it's just that the ld50 the lethal dose is so low it's so close to the therapeutic dose that the acute risk is skyh high there is a chronic risk of like uh anemia I think it can affect bone marrow but uh but I don't I don't like it at all because it's kind of the Same thing with it with a GH only even to worse extent

one of the other thing that comes with GH is you have to get guys so much leaner but that GH causes you know in some insulin resistance it's harder to fill guys out when they're insulin resistant you know insulin resistance is great for burning body fat you know type 1 diabetics used to die with basically z% body fat before insulin was invented but they had no muscle and no glycogen storage and so That's like the same thing yeah it burns fat amazing but you are so glycogen depleted you it's almost impossible to bring the physique

back to life it's I mean unless unless you cut dnp out like a month early and start loading from then which no one does cuz if you're using DMP something's wrong and you're not yeah you're using it as like a hail man you're not ready a mon early so I I hate DMP I just think I've never seen I would imagine you could use a really low Dose and get some benefit from it with with almost no side effect but I've never seen that every time someone's come to me it's always been like a disaster

you know I wasn't ready I tried this now I look like I lost all my muscle cuz you have cuz muscle 70% not muscle it's 70% other things than muscle and DMP drains all that yeah yeah I just hate DMP so like BMA I'm not super well versed on it CU it's reason new I'm sorry but the idea Is that the beta 3 Agonist yeah so it's like it's a it's a uh what is it called a proton of 4 and coupler so it still affects the kreb cycle so the kreb cycle becomes less efficient

and just kind of Wheels around like you do on DMP but slight to a slightly less degrees and you don't get the sulfur build up which obviously your body can't really get rid of so I I suppose since we were talking about NE steps is something like that like a safe version of probably going to Be what does I just started seeing that yeah uh and I see it it seems to be bigger in the UK I haven't really seen it over here much uh but yeah it seems to be I just don't know enough

about it yet but it seems like it's one of the first things that seems like oh this could be exciting sure cuz like the other the other route then which obviously is very invogue right now would be like gp1 AG like the ability to go through your contest prep And not be hungry in theory like that is that going to end up being its ultimate end goal perhaps you know if if insurance companies aren't paying it out for people or whatever is happening right it probably will and I think and you're seeing like type in

uh oen or something like that and you're going to find a site that's not a pharmacy and not marketed to to obese people it's marketed to us uh but is that something you're seeing then already it's being Used recently well that there's there's two bodyb buildings I always say there's first bodybuilding and second bodybuilding and 99% of us only ever get to First bodybuilding first bodybuilding is you're not a mass monster you're not walking around 300 lbs with abs you're not a pro bodybuilder and so for you contest prep is basically starving you carry too

much fat in the offseason you don't have enough metabolism to eat like to eat a lot enough to build muscle Without gaining body fat and then contous prep you don't have enough muscle to burn fat easily so prep is basically starving for so for those people yeah it's definitely a boost but a guy like Samson Duda you know or Dereck Lunsford they're prep for them isn't starving prep is just being extreme cutting out all off plan meals being hyper precise with your measurements but second body build once you're once you're north of 260 on stage

For like an average you know or I mean Derek could be 260 on stage he's sh at that but like once you're that size once you're carrying 300 lbs with abs your metabolism is so high prep is is less about hunger and starving and more about like I need to get the right amount of cardio in I need to get the right diet I'm not hung I'm not starving for all my meals it's just Precision not but for first bodybuilding yeah it'll it's it's already cuz it at that point it is just Physiologically it's a

different two different and I I experienced it firstand cuz I only I spent like one show in second bodybuilding when I did the usas was the first time you know I was like 266 a week out and it was such a weird experience because up to then prep had been like suffer and misery and hunger and cardio and this I started you know I didn't really I was already lean I had like sted glutes at like 12 weeks out you know cuz I I mean just I trained Really hard I did cardio year round and

I ate really well so I was never out of shape so I didn't my weight really didn't change in prep it was was just ramp up the ramp up the gear you know and at that time like adding GH cuz it was still expensive and then be hyper precise with my meals where before I eat pretty good most of the time but my wife cooked something we went out to eat you and it was just changing that but I was never hungry I ate you know the same Amount of food as I did in the

offseason I just removed the junk added in cardio and increased the anabolics yeah okay um I had one last question on this kind of topic if you like with PDS um for like the lay person who doesn't compete has never competed and whatever they will look at someone on stage obviously there's favorable lighting which which is going to help although you could argue it doesn't help And that's why you need so much tan and so on and so forth but you know compared to maybe your bathroom mirror maybe is favorable when you see a bodybuilder

on stage like the the day of how much of and how much of what you're seeing is leanness as in like just their degree of body fat whether it's 5 6% and then how much of it what you're seeing is the end result of the the the the differing drug usages the sodium potassium water do you do you mean how I thought you were going To word it how much I thought you say how much of his like diuretics and no for the average person who like might look at that and go man being ripped

like I would love to be ripped but they won't understand the difference between stage ripped and all the things that go into that even like changing drugs so that the texture of your skin is different to like what they would look like if they were just taking test Primo in and GH and none of that are the you I Mean there's that's the thing and that's the hardest thing when you get into the sport is like what what when guys want to get ripped that's like gym ripped and that is a world difference from stage

RI because you go through if you're in contous PR you go through this phase you get like eight weeks out and in a tank top you know you still have fat in your glutes and hamstrings but your shoulders are veiny and RI and you're still full and everyone in the gym says you look Amazing your mom's like you know like oh my God I can't believe you look like that then you get to about 6 weeks out and everyone at the Gym's like God you're losing you're losing a lot of size you know are you

sure you're not doing something wrong you know and then you get to four weeks out and your mom's threatening to call you know the police on you and have you like or people asking if you're sick or stop training you know and you get like once you TR Once you're actually in cont of shape everyone at the gym tells you you look terrible dude you lost all what happened you used to re jacked you lost all you know because what looks big on stage is shredded that's what looks big on stage big looks fat on

stage big looks awesome in the gym you know like six eight% body fat with after a bunch of carbs you look like Ronnie you look like Mr Olympia in the gym you would look like a fat piece of [ __ ] on stage to look big on stage it It's it's even as a coach 20 years later it's hard because you'll see guys when you're peeking them it's like God I hope he's not too small you know like we dried him out hard and then I'll get on stage like [ __ ] we should have

dried him out harder he still looks F you know but like it's a weird thing so it is it's completely different cuz like what looks big on stage does not look big like I remember any if anyone's got their uh on their computer go Google Human eatting y n eatting turn pro is a light heavyweight you can like I think the well the 2020 usas he should have but he didn't I think he turned 2020 Nationals I think the next Pro qualifi Day turn pro he turn pro is like heavy 198 look at him he

looks insane on stage saw him walking around in a tracksuit he's my height at 190 lbs he looked you know like a 19 PB dude you know but on stage and I guarantee in the offseason at 240 with abs in the gym he looks Amazing that would look like garbage on stage and what what looked and if you look him up you'll be like there's no way that dude made 198 on stage that's what it looks like in close you see oh yeah he takes up the space of 198 pounder so it's just really it's

what ruins it's why most people never progress in bodybuilding is because you're never on stage and so you you have to get you have to like most people never get it at first they usually go Through that first contest and they get done they're like oh my God I was fat that was embarrassing and it might sink in and the next show they realize like no I'm not ready I have to get leaner I have to get leaner and they realize like when everyone's telling them they look like [ __ ] and they're going to

lose and they're too small that that's a good thing some people never get there but that's the hardest thing even as a coach it's hard because when guys especially When guys will send me their check-ins with good lighting I'm like don't don't use the kitchen lighting you know don't use the sun coming up with through the side window with the Shadows I want that kind of lighting right where you you look like garbage because the only way you're going to look there is to have zero body fat and then in the gym you're going to

look small because you don't have you have any body weight but that's what looks big on stage yeah so what We're saying is that going for the average lay person or just wants to be in good shape look good naked whatever they're probably better off actually never even going there anyway the vast majority of the time but also even though their body fat might be only 2% 3% different whatever it might be we all how hard that 2% is actually to lose there's also so many other things that play there that change that end result

that it's you know you can't even Compare yeah like you said with the skin like you're raising androgens you're even little things like because when you get on stage if you have low blood sodium like and your blood volume really decreases the you know like what happens when you go out in the cold in the winter your fingers get cold why cuz all your blood vessels constrict and they dilate in the Torso well that kind of same thing happens when your blood volume gets low you need to keep blood Flow of your organs so the

blood like your veins disintegrate and so at first it's a little microvascular under the skin and that's what when you get too depleted and too dehydrated too flat it gets that smooth like almost look glossy and fuzzy kind of that gritty grainy look is really not dehydration it is it's the right kind of dehydration it's you're dehydrated but your blood volume is still high enough it's a microvascular the small vess near the Surface small blood vessels are still full and that creates that kind of gritty dimpled look if you take someone who looks grainy and

you dry out a little more they'll suddenly look softer which is like how did that happen you should be harder it's like no there's a right amount of hardness so there's just so much at play with contest yeah and then the high anderen to your skin is kind of like leather like you know gry and grainy yeah course so I I wanted to Move on now if it's okay to like questions that are more specific to competing maybe people in the orence who are thinking about it or have or or planning to whatever yeah that's

great cuz almost everything the stuff you see online about competing it's a weird thing because because there's a the whole job that involves like what I do so no one gives so anyone who knows what these answers are doesn't usually give it away for free and anyone who gives it Away for free on the internet doesn't know because if they did it wouldn't be given away for free so you know when it when it comes to like let's say the peak week or the two weeks you what whatever time period it is during that window

where we start to manipulate things to achieve that on stage specific look you know we've got kind of there are kind of levels to it right you've got you know some might just do basic and water and carb manipulation quite simple then you Can kind of throw in sodium manipulation then you can throw in pottassium manipulation then there's obviously diuretics and stuff like that so like for people who are like stepping on stage maybe the first time maybe the second time winging it a little bit where on that Spectrum should they fall and when is

the time that maybe you should start looking up that ladder to try and push that cuz you know that it's almost inverse okay go you're going to Need more your first couple shows cuz and I like go like I hate keep bringing up Ronnie Coleman that dates me cuz he's been on of the sport forever but go watch The Unbelievable 2001 it's like five and a half weeks out of the Olympia he could he's ready he stays ready the dude is shredded strided glutes no fat on his body so that's almost six weeks out you

know like the top guys it's a like when you peek a pro guy you're not pounding diuretics CU they they're Shredded it's really like almost inverse the first like younger like the first comp novice guys first cou shows they they just can't get lean enough they don't have enough muscle and it's also the the fullness cuz it's not just body fatted but it's skin thickness so you like I always say you take a balloon you know take a blue balloon and and blow inflate it till it's about to burst put your hand on other side

you can see your hand straight through it it's skin is so Thin deflate it it's all wrinkled and thick you can't see through it well the big guys have so much muscle that just by filling them out it pulls that skin they because they're their change from Flat to full it's so much more dramatic that skin gets pulled so much thi that that creates like a diuretic effect during filling out guys at 6'1 175 don't have enough musle muscle to to do that you know so that you're the only way you're drying Out is by

drying out you're not drying out by filling out filling out just makes you look you know worse basically fatter so it's a it's almost like an inverse typically like it's like the amount of peak week changes I do goes like this your first show yeah your your pro show yeah and it's because by the time you get to the pro like uh like I worked with Joe Seaman for the New York Pro last year and God I don't remember if we Used the direct at all but we like he's he looks ready he's you know

he's 285 shredded so it's like let's put some carbs in you he fills up a little bit it's like well your Skin's pulled paper thin now so we don't got to do much you know but your a guy doing his first show he's never been lean before he's so deflated by the time he gets Le cuz he's probably lost 50 lbs he's like a deflated balloon his Skin's all loose and so we got to do like all kinds of Tricks and things to make to prve that physique up dude but that I have never heard

someone just say that outright before usually people would presume like you know if we look at it from a powerlifting perspective we'd say never do a weight cut for your first couple of meats or whatever and then you know when it gets more important then you worry about Stu and people might look at it in the same light like I don't want to risk messing with sodium and potassium it's Only a local show but you know what you're saying there is like you're actually the population that needs that stuff to have any chance of you

never want to like ideally you don't need to like like Dorian y you say you have a glass of white wine because Dorian was like at death level body fat 8 weeks out you know you you're not going to do you're not even going to get true contest shape your first show like you it's like one in a million that you Actually get lean enough your first show so no one is so you're going to have to do additional things and most people don't get ever but for several shows yeah so so if we're moving

forward with that presumption that the novice or the the the beginner intermediate has more to gain from those manipulations what are the things that you see most commonly done wrong and do you have any strategies for like fixing spills for example like you know you're one or two Days out and you're like oh man I'm way more watery than I should be you know whatever it might be are there is there like an emergency tool kit that you can kind of use in those scenarios yeah there's there's several things you can do you like like

laxatives and things you don't want to do but uh uh I guess the easiest way would be like to say what a perfect Peak would look like if On's like like Ronnie Coleman he's ready 6 weeks out all you're doing is you're Not depleting you know ideally you're ready somewhere between two and four weeks out and at that point you stop the harsh dieting and you start adding calories in and you won't be hypercaloric you'll still be hypocaloric so you still be burning fat but not so DEET so low that you're depleting and that already

starts bringing the physique back to life the muscle store a little bit of glycogen you kind of start to see what how the physique will look Like if you have wrinkles on your lower back they'll kind of get pulled tight and you can actually see okay what Fat's left what's water left and you can kind of tell like if you pinch an area you're not sure if it's fat or water if you pinch it and you feel the granules that's fat if you don't feel feel anything but thick like skin that's mostly water and so

you can kind of gauge that so you start adding calories and then I usually have guys do their Last like higher calorie day at s days hour and then from there we drop calories like if they're truly ready we don't do any more really low calorie days they just be kind of Baseline days and then about three days out we'll do like we'll do two real like higher carb days and kind and you can push the carbs pretty high you know cuz spilling is not really a bad thing spilling at the wrong time is a

bad thing but if you if you start spilling Thursday afternoon for a Saturday show that's almost perfect because it's like all right you're full let's back off cuz you're going to suck that water back up in two days you know and so that's perfect we then we we'll stop forcing it and then we'll go to Friday maybe taper water a little bit I don't want no if things are going perfectly no sodi change no pottassium change uh taper water a little bit and then keep the calories High the day before the show but reduce carbs

a Little bit and replace fats so you get the same calorie intake so you're not depleting glycogen but you're no cuz cuz glycogen requires water glycogen is four to four and a half times water for every every gram of glucose so you you don't want you don't want that you to store carbohydrates or to store glycogen you need water so if you're depleting water the day out you'll add fats instead keep calories high and that's it then you step on stage I usually have guys drink Some alcohol to help them sleep alcohol increases uh affects

anti-diuretic hormone so it's a really nice diuretic and that it it's a diuretic that doesn't operate through sodium really it just increases urine output and on top of that it's an alternative energy source now alcohol doesn't convert to sugar in the body like everyone says it doesn't it's a direct energy source instead of sugar so you don't have to burn off the glycogen so when we add alcohol whatever However full you are that stays that way cuz that alcohol will be our energy source while you sleep and that's ideal what happens for guys their first

show is not and and a little more you're going to probably increase androgens you know you you rock bottom estrogen at some point in the final weeks and then start taking like you know try to ramp up anderen some people will like load Hester some people load uh wind straw sometimes you even anad draw or nothing But basically your antigens keep increasing into the show your you know antib DHT deriva is and stuff will increase ostren will decrease and that's the ideal but guys their first show that's not what's going to happen what's going to

happen is you get as lean as you can you know and then like a week out you're still not ready so then you do like a couple really low carb days to try to deplete and get everything out of the body as possible then load without Spilling which is almost impossible you try to probably not going to get them full because they were super depleted and then they're not lean enough they still have fat on their body so you have to get rid of all the water so that whatever Fat's there looks like what the

guy was actually ready looks like without a diuretic and then you yeah so that's kind of how it works and then you a lot of guys uh you have to cut sodium or you can ramp up potassium I don't Like to play with electrolytes that much I used to play with sodium a lot more I used to I used to do lots of different things sometimes I would sometimes I would cut sodium a day out and to act as a diuretic and at smaller guys that works really really well but it starts like disintegrating as

far as quality the bigger guy gets so then I used to like deplete sodium maybe a little bit while we were carving up because you need gly or you need sodium to store Glycogen also so some of that sodium get used to that and then like the day before the show when they're like hypo uh nutric to low sodium will add sodium back in and that works bigger for the better for the bigger guys but it's it's kind of more risky because it's like it's like you go through this period where you're looking worse and

then we hope you look better at the end again that's good to he he you say though because it's really common that people Presume they have to do that stuff because they've read an article somewhere someone said something but at least from my limited experience in comparison to you all that sodium and potassium manipulation its success rate is very Hit or Miss oh it seems to go wrong more than it go so weird it's like you put so much work you you you vote every minute of your life for four months and then you lay

lay it's like it's like you're about to win The Masters in golf you know and it's like okay you got a third you know 30 yard chip all you got to do is land on the green it's like you know what drop it on there side that water I want to take a 5 240 yard see if I you know it's like that's what you're doing it's like if or it's like to win a basketball game it's like okay all we need one point we we're down by one a layup wins and you're like [

__ ] it I'm making a 3/4 I'm shootting from the other free throw I'm making a Half court shot if I make it it'll be amazing and we'll win by two but you only need a layup and do you do you think maybe sometimes that's coming from that real reality check that maybe these beginners intermediates you know they aren't going to be ready that is that is the very nature of the part of the sport they're in right now yeah but because they don't understand that there's no such thing as ready for you yet that

they're trying to Make up for that bad because everything you read on the Internet is that you need all those things and why because the PE because Derek Lunsford isn't telling you his Peak Week protocol because he's Mr Olympia the guy telling you his Peak Week protocol is the guy who took you know fourth out of four in in you know at whatever the East Tallahassee classic last you know and he's telling you what his coach told which you know his coach is just has a Protocol everyone gets the same so that's just the problem

is uh yeah diuretics are useful when they're useful but when they're not they can be they can like if you're if you're yeah they can ruin a physique just as easily as it's really hard because sometimes you have to add things but I always try to say like if you're adding something and you can't say you know what I can guarantee 100% this will only make me look better You have to understand that that there's that potential it's going to make you look worse and Murphy's Law means that that's what's going to happen yeah sure

another kind of common issue that people run into maybe this is more common at high level or beginning or whatever where you say you qu you you do a show it's a regional you know whatever the correct terminology might be there I'm sorry and that automatically qualifies you for a national show which is three Weeks away and people just have no idea how to bridge that Gap like how do I stay Peak do I keep my drugs the same do I do I go into a surplus for a week to recover so when you have

athletes who are going through those kind of close phases there where there are two competitions close together what kind of General guidelines do you do to keep them in good shape without kind of overshooting I guess uh one week between shows is tough but doable you're Probably going to have to dry it harder the second one it's going to be like more risky but it's doable two weeks between shows is almost perfect you can piig out after the first show and then just get back on the diet and that's it 3 weeks is hard not

because it's hard as a coach it's hard because you peaked you you're done you got you ate some food after the the show and then you got to go back on the diet and motivation mentally is very very hard 4 weeks is Brutal early on now if you're like if like we said like at the if you're second bodybuilding and you're a pro peak week you're just you're just tidying things up so that's not hard at all because you're not you're not going back on a diet you weren't especially hungry to begin with you just

go back it's like oh crap I just got to weigh everything really precisely again for stop eating Oreos again whatever yeah yeah so it really but like it I guess Like that's why the pros could do so many shows it's because their their Peak is different than a guy doing his first local show a guy doing his first local show who's got to use diuretics got to manipulate sodium is starving you know trying to fill out from a completely depleted State and and then so that they're going to rebound so hard they're going to eat

one they're going to eat chicken wings after the show and it's going to take two weeks just to clear That water and so they're their next Peak 3 weeks later is going to be really hard so it really depends on where you're at like physique wise if you're like if you if you turn pro those guys that's why like the guys that will turn pro and they'll do a pro show 3 weeks later they still look pretty good you know it's because they're at that level now you know but a guy that wins like wins

the Michigan and then tries to do junior Nationals like four weeks later Always looks terrible because to win the Michigan he's probably still in first bodybuilding and he had to do a lot of peak week stuff and it just happened to work out and he looked great but the likelihood that you're going to do all those things deal with the water rebound peek a gun perfectly you know four or six weeks later is very slim sure so like so like if two weeks is the sweets spot say you'd kind of just have a an easy

week and then it would basically be Peak week not easy week but back on diet yeah basically easier yeah yeah yeah yeah it depends like if you were TR if you want if you if you were truly in shape that first show then yeah you you're basically just isocaloric so that's easy but most people even if they win we still could have been leaner sure okay so when you um I'm going to presume that you've dealt with some clientele with this kind of goal um if you're dealing with individuals who have a need To stay

very lean all year round let's say we're talking like you know like a fitness model or maybe they're on TV or you know what whatever it might be like that my client Adrian's okay so how how how do you deal with how do you deal with that then because you know that's going to be a fine line where maybe at two weeks notice they always need to be not obviously not stage leaned we can't do that but you know what I suppose what I'm getting is how do we how do we Decide what is like

an acceptable level that is sustainable for that person and how do we maintain pay that without making them feel like crop all year round yeah that's it's it's a it's like a Razor's Edge cuz I had a twoe CLA when I was with optimal nutrition I they within photo shoot ready within but that's photo shoot ready photo shoot ready is Jim lean which is like eight or 10 weeks out that's not hard two weeks from that means you just don't get fat You know you just you have to eat like a bodybuilder year round that's

all that mean like the fitness guys who have to be like fitness shoot practically stage ready that's tough and you don't do that forever I always use David Dar if anyone remembers him I think in like ' 93 he retired from bodybuilding not by choice he decided cuz he always stayed in shape he decided he was going to do every Pro Show because I don't think he think he thought he couldn't find anyone who did Every single Pro Show in in a 12- Monon period in a calendar year and so he did every single Pro

show but he he real like as soon as he ate after that last show he he said it's like his body was destroyed he just could he never could get back in shape after that it was so hard on his body it ended his career basically and so you like it's like I don't know how like Mike oarn stays in such good shape but if you look he kind of stays Like gym shape you know like like pretty shredded to the average person but I guarantee glutes aren't stried you know so that it's that fine

line like you need to be gym photo shoot like are you wearing shorts in a tank top that's no problem we just you just don't get to eat junk yeah you need to be like shredded shredded hope they're paying you really well because you got two years yeah so if we're dealing with like maybe the situation you were in Nutrition where you had to be two weeks away from I just ate I I never ate cheat meals I just ate you know and I was so obsessed with the sport at that time it wasn't hard

so how did you deal with kind of actually trying to progress also cuz I assume at that point you were still trying to grow muscle and things like that so how do you how do you deal with that when you're all like oh [ __ ] well at that time I used to joke I always said like I would quit a job if They told me I couldn't eat at work and so that's how I progressed I I did my thing I naturally didn't get fat I stayed lean but I if they would have fired

me they would have fired me I wasn't going to hold back my progress sure yeah so but that that is a thing cuz you're probably optimal and I hate giving percentages because these this data came from before like when skin calipers were really all you used but all the data kind of suggest hormonally And as far as insulin and things like that your your testosterone as a man your testost natural testosterone production is optimized around like 8 to 12% body fat you know your sahoma binding globulin tend to be suppressed a little B around that

range your your aromatization aromatization to estrogen is lower in that body fat range your insulin sensitivity is highest to that range so if you can keep that person like if 8% is acceptable where they Might need to dip you know like drop a percent a week for two weeks when they need to do a shoot that's sustainable it's hard but that's sustainable and you can still progress cuz you're still at the very bottom of that optimal range cuz getting two fats just as bad if you get above about like 12% body fat your free testosterone

levels will start decreasing you whatever testosterone you're taking is going to be more likely aromatized to estrogen you're going to Have more aromatization your insulin sensitivity is going to decrease so all these things that neg negatively impact the ability to create hypertrophy and produce new muscle mass or decrease so being too fat is just as bad as being but it's kind of that and I hate giving those numbers because who knows what the true percentage is now that we have better data but that range so someone need like basically you can stay lean with abs

no stried glutes and in two Weeks be in really like 6% body fat good shape that's sustainable it's difficult cuz you don't get any any wiggle room but you can do that almost indefinitely you need to get leaner than that like I said I hope they're paying you a lot cuz yeah because then you're you're suffering for at that point okay but that's probably that's probably a lot leaner than most people would presume is sustainable if you know like8 8% most people probably think oh you know well I Think the reason for that is cu

when they see like a top competitor guest pose and they're all watery they think you know like I always I used to crack me up when guys were guest posing like this is worse on the message boards I don't read the comments on social media as much so I'm sure it's just as bad I just don't read as much but like like you know like a top Olympian would guess pose and all the Cs oh my God he's so fat it's like the dude's in a posing Suit and he's he's got abs he's got stri

you know he's got separation of quads I would be like go put on a posing suit right now and see how fat you are you would be blown away how disgust like you know those guys are actually very lean they're just their blood volume Skyhigh and they're watery you know but like color never guess posed it more than like eight% body fat really you know even Ronnie like they always say about how huge he got he's like yeah he's a Big bled mess but the dude always had ABS always had stri he always had glutes

even you know he was just 320 lbs water ball yeah okay so my next or like Derrick lford look like look at when him and like uh like the new is it the New York Pro that they all gu at in Pittsburgh yeah no that's in Pittsburgh yeah there's a couple shows but yeah a couple shows do it New York Pro usually has multiple ones and then Pittsburgh's one where Manion brings them all out they're all in shape they're Peak they're middle they're watery but if you look and and they'll guys will be like oh

it's so fat it's because they're on stage lights but it's like if anyone of you guys who thinks you're in shape right now got got on stage you'd realize you're way fatter than they are they're they're 8% year around another so another common um issue problem that comes up with female Competitors is obviously the the division it changes a bit Division and judging standards are always kind of fluctuating and stuff right but it's really common for female competitors to struggle to get their lower body to get as lean as they needed to without their upper

body becoming too lean for the judges to then CR so do you have any strategies that you use with your female competitors to help kind of navigate around that issue that seems to almost Be Universal and I'm sure this is like this is hard well you got to do things that they it sucks because you got to like do why do they hair more body fat on their who who has more body F on their lower half women what I guess what is a woman you know that's like the question now but but as far

as we're concerned it's estrogen you know that's the big thing so you have to cut their estrogen down and which is terrible they feel terrible They stop menstruating and you almost have to do that get them lean enough early and then kind of almost reverse the process and F like wellness is kind of weird because they're big and lean but they can't be dry but their legs have to be lean you almost have to suppress estrogen get them lean get them like stage ready with their upper body deflated and too lean and then feed them

and fatten them up into the show while estrogen's still low so they don't store The fat on there it's like a weird it's it's difficult and the judging criteria changes all the time because you know like physique physique used to be like figure well because first there was just bodybuilding and fitness and then Fitness turned if you weren't a gymnast in college you couldn't do physique so then they created or couldn't do Fitness so they created figure but then bodybuilders are too big and so they focus on physique but then like it's so Hard I

feel bad for them because it's bodybuilding is easy be bigger and more ripped with good shape and you win you know like how do you stop the progression so it's always going to naturally drift so then physique gets leaner and leaner and harder and figure gets harder and harder and more muscular you know like remember when bikini came out it bikini is not bikini anymore bikini is what figure was 10 years ago you know and then Wellness is now be Wellness is like impossible because you do like your local show your overall bikini winner is

often your overall Wellness winner if that girl goes and tries to do Wellness at Nationals competing against girls weighing 185 pounds you lean you know cuz at the at the pro level Wellness those girls are huge they're just not shredded and so but it's it's so it's really weird like a lot of times if if you took if you took a girl that like who who just won Uh usas and and any of the bikini classes and had her do a local show in that same look it's very likely she won't win you should get

do for being too hard true you know so it's yeah I mean that's a tangent but yeah it's it's so hard for the females because one you're like body B is easy it's like because it's just One Direction get as far as you can that way as big and lean and hard with the girls it's like get only to this level but then but when you Get there this part of your body is going to be here you know so we got to get that part here you know and then hope also that that's what

the judges are are rewarding this time but so it really comes down to managing estrogen because the reason I asked that I make it more complicated the reason I asked that specifically is because there is so much misinformation it'll be like well that's why you have to train your lower body Three days a week you have to do 50 to 100 rep set leg presses you know what I mean and all that all that other St that's why you have to do only your cardio on the stair climber do you know what I mean and

all this stuff yeah and like there's not a complete death truth to that I don't think you you don't you don't get you don't burn fat locally you burn fat systemically but that's related to blood flow if if blood isn't getting that fat that fat you know And so when you're doing something that like if you're walking and you've touch your glutes and they're cold probably not burning fat there there's no blood flow there but if you do the stepmill you touch your glutes they're they're you know warm so there's a lot of blood flow

there so fat gets burn from wherever but if there's a lot of blood flow in that area it's probably more likely that that fat will come from there than if that muscle wasn't being Worked at all the other thing that people don't realize is glycogen there there's two types of glycogen you control blood you stabilize your blood sugar with liver glycogen and that's why uh if you've ever worked with if you nutritionist you ever worked with an alcoholic a former alcoholic if they stop drinking you have to be really careful with hypoglycemia because their liver

is so damaged they can't stabilize their blood sugar levels and they no Longer have that constant extra energy source of alcohol well so but when you burn muscle glycogen you only burn muscle glycogen from the muscle being used and so if you're doing tons of intense muscle card like stepmill cardio your legs are going to be DEET of glycogen all the time it's going to change their look and they're going to look leaner and drier when they're not necessarily burn more fat they're just depleted in glycogen and that's a Frustrating thing because so many things

I see where people talk about like their upper body flattening out when they train legs it's like no that not how Works your legs are flattening out you just at the gym your legs were pumped which makes your upper body look flattened but the reality the only part that's getting flat is your legs so you mentioned there about the the blood flow thing so that that was another point I had down there um improving vascularity In athletes is there a way of achieving that cuz you know there's a big genetic component of like some people

can be high per body fat and have veins all over their shoulders right and some people are sub 10 and got nothing going on is there any way whether it's training methodologies incl you know that improve capillary networks or anything like that that athletes can try to try and improve vascularity yeah it's I mean it's really genetic but you can Try one thing you can do is you can restrict blood flow mhm uh one one of the side effects of of Synthol use is is varicose veins in that area if you see a guy with

tons of varicose veins in his biceps and his biceps also look funky there's a reason cuz that that blood cuz cuz you you pump blood through the arteries the arteries are deeper and that's really high pressure that's getting through no matter what but if I put a bunch of fluid right here I look Like a this is not simp though obviously not there's no muscle on the screen if I did there' be some actual muscle there but if you AR I uh here so uh if you if you put a bunch of mass in there

then the the blood's getting through the arteries but there's no pressurized system to pump blood back to the heart the veins aren't pressurized there's not like there's a heart here in my hand but so that works through a valve system when I squeeze these muscles the muscle Squeeze squish the veins and they shoot past the valve and they stay there till they shoot past the next valve the next valve till it gets back to my heart well if you put a mass here or even a restriction here I mean you can do that like if

I you know restrict that that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger well so if you do Synthol here all the time eventually blood's going to pull here and the blood's going to pull in the vein it's going to wiggle around And then it's going to leak to some of the smaller veins and so you can do that through through things like that increase blood volume dilating your blood vessels with like Calis really working on like blood volume training on pump in an area possibly like so when you sorry just sorry but when you

say blood volume training what does that look what does that entail like focusing more on a pump than just Str yeah and then also possibly Flow Restriction You're not going to get varicose veins from restricting blood flow for an hour but like you can see what happens like with Synthol you'll see guys like very you know and but that that you can but you're the likelihood that you're going to improve it to a aesthetically pleasing effect is pretty slim sure yeah which is why I don't I don't know anyone who's like got do for having

no vascularity who by their end of the career was like oh the guyy so vascular Sure and do you think a lot of the time people who say that may just aren't lean enough oh yeah yeah usually that's yeah and it's because like like you said like like I have veins I'm fat right now I have veins I've always have been really vascular some people just aren't and so like some people only get vascular when they're lean and some people are vascular all the time so like for some people the leanness doesn't really play that

big of a role some people it plays 100% of a role sure I mean unless you had anything about competing my my next questions were going to kind of segue from that into training related now so when you're training these these high level guys you know girls who already have Pro cards or whatever they might be obviously we're dealing with a structure or a person here that is at 98 99% perhaps of its physical capacity right so when you get someone like that let's say you inherit a competitor who's Already at that level but they

have a lagging a significantly lagging weak point right like you need to add a significant amount of muscle to hamstrings shoulders whatever might be how do you go about achieving on someone who's already so close to like their upper limit I'll try to answer this and cover some thoughts also I was uh I think I heard Tiger Woods hired a swing coach after he had won like 20 majors and I don't think he won a major After that and I always think like well why you're the best golfer ever Why without one why hire one

now you know and so I try not to mess with them too much you know I really cuz I my view is like training is more emotional you know like like like howow used to train wasn't my style training I like to lift heavy that might be the best training ever but if I don't like doing it I'm not excited to go to the gym it's not the best for me you know so There's such an emotional component I don't try to force someone to train away they hate because they're not going to make progress

you know a training program that's not 100% perfect but they're so excited to do it they can't sleep the night before is going to get better results than the perfect program they hate the diet's different you know like you either get protein carbs or you don't and the right amount is the right amount you know you don't get no Emotional dieting because if it wasn't we'd all be eating pizza you know or Burgers beer and other good things but uh but training is more emotional so I try not to mess with it too much but

as far as the weak points I try to look at the first thing people do is train it more frequently you say well why is this body part weak if if it's weak and it's in any way at all related to your training doing more of what's not working is not going to work you know Because there's two types of weak Parts there's weak genetic Parts some people just have gen like poor shape for their biceps they not much muscle mass on their triceps if you have a genetically weak body part then like you there

might not be much you can do for it but you you really are going to have to like try to figure out if there is something to do with the training but if it's weak because you might not be training it properly or Stimulating it good enough doing more of that is going to not not going not it's not working already doing more of what's not working not going to work but even worse you're spending less time working the other muscles so it's going to make your whole physique worse so really try to look at

it and typically what happens is there's some body parts uh you can improve like chest is one if you have a weak chest because this weird thing in bodybuilding where you go look at the Guys from the 70s everyone had a good chest M what was their main movement bench press flat stuff guys did tons of flat stuff there this weird thing I ha he going back to bodying we're talking about body parts so fair game it's just as relevant to anyone else yeah but so like everyone body decided at some point that we all

had to do incline mhm and that's great if incline works for you but if you're like shoulder dominant like me I spent Way too much time thinking like I work my upper chest and my chest didn't grow at all I didn't have a chest until I started powerlifting and I did all flat bench all the time and I was like all of a sudden I was like holy [ __ ] my chest is a good body part now what did I change well I stopped doing all this incline work that just made my shoulder sore

so we'll look at it that way like so like chest is something that a lot of guys just fall into this got to do Incline got to do incline that's great if you're someone who has a chest grows from it if it doesn't if you're shoulder dominant it's not going to work another one is triceps because what's what are the biggest what are the mass building for triceps close grip and dips you know yeah that's great if those work but what you like not everyone has like triceps that you know the biggest muscle of the

tricep and the biggest muscle of the whole arm is the long head of the tricep Those don't get worked hardly at all in either of those movements you know those get worked in like overhead movements or movements where you're you're humorous moves like this so I look at that it's like okay your triceps look have you been have you spent the last 5 years doing more close scrip and more dip some more push Downs because that's not helping so let's find out something you know let's find something that targets the long head and get as

much as we can Out of that another one I see all the time is quad sweep and I I hate to like everyone who's got poor quad sweep what do they do hack squats right how how have you ever seen anyone have po hot quad sweep turn into like Tom plat quad sweep because they started doing half quats all the time no they have poor quad sweep and now their knees hurt too you know hexs like if you have good legs hacks are great if you your time plats Hack squats are phenomenal if you're someone

who has difficulty carding the quads hack squats might work but I'm going to guess that the second your quad sweep wasn't good that's the first thing you jumped on and so if it hasn't worked in the last 10 years that's doing 10 more sets of it it's not going to work so look to look to other things you know like partial squats a lot which you know like everyone thinks they have to go as to Grass no if you have poor quad sweep A lot of times doing like slightly heel elevated and not going to

parallel is what's going to Target your legs or weird things like [ __ ] squats like old school [ __ ] squats like you put your knees over your toes um basically like or or playing with different leg presses different angles you know like Everyone likes to put the leg press the seat all the way up because you're really strong it's like well you already like you look like You're carrying a trailer behind you cuz your ass is so big and you got turnup quads it's fun being freakishly strong but obviously that's not working let's

put that seat all the way back you're going to be weak as hell but why are you weak as hell because that big dump truck's not working anymore now you got to work your quads and maybe that doesn't but you just have to go through and like not say okay this is what works you know I got weak outer quads so let Me do hack squads maybe that'll work but do you ever stop and analyze like got my quads growing by doing that so that's really we just kind of go there but there's there's like

if you have short biceps and flat biceps that's a genetic shape you can't change that yeah if you have weak B good shape and they're just small I'm going to say are you you're probably going too heavy on curls you're probably you're a lot of times you see Progressive overload guys guys who like To focus on strengths have weak arms and it's because uh I think like a way to describe would be like if if you're deadlifting 500 lb and next week you do 55 PBS you added 1% on the weight that's doable you can

do you can make that well if you're doing 30 lb dumbbell curls what's the next step up 35 lbs you know that we not do not in the week yeah yeah so the only way you're doing that is by working your biceps less because you're going to swing the weight more so we'll We'll we'll start will be like okay let's not do strength for arm workor let's just say Target the muscle don't even worry about the weight maybe we'll get smaller at first but let's learn to actually work that muscle so we can actually get

growth out of it rather than swinging up more weight so you know like yeah great your cheek curling 225 for sets of 10 but you got 18 in arms something's not not clicked so do you find that it is quite often like a mind Muscle connection issue at the root of it in that maybe they have dominant muscle groups that are just coming over the top of it and you know it's that but then compounded by the fact that your dominant muscles are fun to train yes you know like if you got weak hamstrings and

you're a great deadlifter you can bang and you're banging out 700 lb stiff legs that feels awesome right but you got weak hamstrings and so like stiff legs for You might be a glute exercise you know so you know like what I find a lot is like really good ass dud lifters that are freakishly strong on stiff leg if I have them do a Sumo stiff leg and Kai green does these they're really weird you'll realize how weak your hamstrings are and I I learned that myself because I would do you know Steph 495 585

and I went to do I saw Kai green doing these Sumo these you know there's they they're like Romanian sure you know real strong Archb ass way out knee slightly bent and I remember thinking I was going to do like 405 495 I got to 225 and I thought my tstrings were ripping off my legs I was so sore the next day because it was like probably the first time a stiff leg ever actually worked my hamstrings and not my glutes true so I I think also maybe a takeaway point from that is no exercise

is inherently working the muscle group it should do just because you're doing it exactly and that's the Most as a as a powerlifter you're training a movement you're trying to move by the whatever the rules are got a bench press you glutes have to touch the you know whatever the rules are as long as you meet those criteria all you're trying to do is find whatever you can to move the bar through the path and you want to combine as many muscles as possible you don't want to Target a muscle you want you want to

use no muscles if you can if you can find a way To bones do it you know even better but as a bodybuilder you're not doing a movement you're working a muscle you just we're limiting that we we have you know we're stuck with machines and equipment that like you know free weights gravity only pulls down machines you're usually locked into some position but you're not doing a movement you're working a muscle so don't worry about the movement find a movement that works that muscle you know for most people a Hack Squad is probably going

to be more quad dominant but if you have weak quads that's probably a reason and that's probably not going to be you're going to have to find alternative movement you know find just yeah just in general if you're trying to build work a muscle make sure you're working a muscle not doing a movement so you've already mentioned that like your style of training for example is pretty heavy quite intense you know in in my head I Kind of categorize hypertrophy training in like kind of effort or intensity based so like you know Dorian yat style

type of thing me or whatever see that that one always kind of bothered me cuz sorry uh because go watch blun guts you exercises D does on back day seven Dam it's like and there's warm-ups with each one too I'm like yeah I get it like you're only like doing one or two like but most of us are doing something like that I'm like but seven exercises That's a lot that's volume yeah that's fair okay but in in that's that's an extreme because always people I just say it because people always kind of called me

that way too because I didn't I my warm-ups were just warm up sure like if I'm doing if I'm going to try to do 4 five or 10 on bench I'm not doing 13 or 10 225 or 10 I'm doing all those but I might do 135 or 10 or 15 225 Maybe by rep eight I'm like that feels good 315 I might only do four you know so I'm not But if I did 10 I'm not really getting any hypertrophy because it's not failure so I always thought like if I'm using it as a

warm-up my only point is getting warm so I put all my effort on those but I Pro if you count every set that every time the bar moves through space I think I did as many sets as anybody yeah so if if we make the distinguishing change then we could call like intensity base where you focus using on a very low number of top sets let's say one or drop Set volume based would be multiple work sets for every exercise and then I would call like load load based or power building which you've kind do

you think all of those training methodologies have their place for hypertrophy based athletes or aesthetic based athletes and because you've already mentioned like being passionate about your training being important which I I wholeheartedly agree with but do you think there are maybe scenarios where those become more Or less appropriate so for example someone who's at the very high end maybe a power building approach becomes not really feasible anymore because the loads would be so high you get like trained by JP like I think he's even said like he's stronger than he's ever been right now

but he's not as big sure cuz he's he's focused on you know there gets to be a point where like you're like a James Hing or something the weight you're Moving is so heavy and so intense and so draining on the body that I think there's no way you can do that without losing some of the sarc plasmic benefits of a higher volume you know and 70% of the muscle is not contracti tissue so there is benefit to that yeah I um I think it's just such a load to question I I'll I'll say like

I think no one knows the best way to train because if there was way to what we'd all be doing and so I always try to start start from Like first principles and say okay if I if I do nothing for chest my chest isn't going to grow if I come in and do one set of a movement that's better than nothing you know if I do two sets I'm going to grow better than if I did one set set if I did three sets I'm going to go three allout sets better than two but

when can I stop guaranteeing you know like it's pretty early you know like by the time I can I guarantee that an eighth set for chess is always going to Produce more growth in a seventh set I don't know I like probably I can't like absolutely guarantee that so we're all probably doing whether we're high intensity load base volume we're all probably doing more sets than the minimum required to maximize growth and so after that I start thinking well what is growth well I think there's two types there's myofibrillar where you're actually making the contractile

tissue thicker and stronger adding new mus Protein structures to the muscle and then there's the alternative adaptations increase blood supply glycogen storage water in the muscle capillary density all the sarcoplasmic stuff and so I think probably at some point the data is going to start to show that the best overall approach is like some some amount of time spent actually trying to improve the contractile strength of the muscle which is misleading because I can get stronger on A squat without making my quads better so you you have to be specific that you're getting stronger by

the contraction being harder combined with some effort working on that psychop lasic stuff what that is and what the proportions and what I think and I think it's such a muddled mess and the emotion is involved in it that I don't know if that we'll ever find the best and it will probably be individual at best right but you know I think maybe which Approach is best for a person person may well change over their career and also perhaps you know to keep it bodybuilding specific also based where they are in the pr like you

don't you don't want to be doing a load-based training program at 80 85% 6 weeks out and even more so like you said like where you're at where you at like like uh geographically so if you don't have good training part like if you live if you live in this area like like you know like Columbus area Ohio is like the strength capital of the World Imagine Meadows had a hard time like pushing around you know like like if you have a really good training partner it's going to affect things too you know like cuz

like when I trained with Steve Kow my training was much heavier and more load-based like when he moved when he first moved to Texas and I didn't have a spot or I didn't have that secondary like youthful motivation I would like fall into a lot more volume Work because you i' go into the gym just not be as motivated not have a spotter so I think there's yeah there's a ton of stuff going on but do you think which of those backgrounds someone comes from can actually affect their onstage look cuz you'll you'll often hear

said things like those who have lifted heavier through their career will appear dener and things like that so do you think that is playing a meaningful role in some of the physiques that you see on Stage like for example people who' spent more time maybe with heavier loads more muscle damage more myof fibr Based training that denser look I think you can see like like James Hing had or JP I think they have a look you know Dusty hanshaw has a look and it's hard to pinpoint but it's like God he looks strong you know

where Phil Heath you look at it's like Jesus Christ was he made out of clouds like you know how that's insane but he doesn't look strong You know Ronnie Coleman looked strong uh you know Ducker Jackson looked amazing but I don't think you looked at Ducker Jackson like w I wonder what he can Squat and it's hard like when you put him side by side I don't think you can like isolate like that's why but there is a look to it you know but I think another interesting thing is it seems like a lot of

really good bodybuilders come from a pre-b bodybuilding career that was endurance-based okay a lot of People come from long crunchy longdistance running and I've always been curious if there's some kind of the sarcoplasmic adaptations that come from that obviously like the the different muscle fiber types are going to be detrimental you know that you're training the wrong fiber type basically but like uh like I think probably and it's it's a shame you never turned Pro but I think probably the most like exotically impressive physique ever was Like a a mid 9s Dave Palumbo he was

320 like in Inside Out stried glute shredded when at a time when like dor NES was 260 freaking everyone out like if you can't find many pictures cuz there's no internet no digital images but he like every once in a while you see one pop up and like that was 94 how how did a human look like that and he came from a long distance background it's interesting you say cuz I can't remember where I read this now it's going to it's in one of The like PD underground handbooks or whatever but um I'll remember

the name as soon as we stopped recording I guarantee it but and there was some research quoted in that saying that steroids most Peds preferentially improve hypertrophy in slow twitch fibers oh interesting right so you know that's if we take that as truth um then in theory coming from an endurance background or someone who is more slow twitch naturally you in theory have more To gain if that is true from taking Peds like your your your growth potential versus staying natural would be higher I used to have a list of cross Runners that I've totally

forgotten but like there's a I think Jordan janowitz was a CR but yeah it's every time like and they they seem to have like a a look like a uh oddly full for how lean and depleted they should be yeah I mean it it kind of stands to reason right Because if the fast twitch ones are the easy ones to hypertrophy maybe we can maximize them reasonably well naturally and then the ones that are really hard to get hypertrophy from if we have loads of those God yeah I wish we could I wish there was

a I'll think of the name and I'll message I'll message you when I think of it in very interesting that would that would make tall sense because I at one point I was kind of compiling a list Because everyone every like every time i' I think Dereck Lunsford might have came from uh running background too but it would be like but God seems like everyone who looks like insanely round and full and or just like freakish it was brri Chavez okay oh yeah someone else told me yeah he's got a couple cool things yeah he's

got a CP I think it was in his second book I can't remember what it's called anyway that's that's that out um last one on training then Forearms and calves mhm is there a way to make meaningful cuz if you ever put like a as a bit of a joke like if you could put one inch on any muscle group The the Gen P will generally usually come back with calves or forearms right if we take the joke answer out of there um but they seem to be well you can get forearms by trying to

make one of them but you know they do seem to be the most stubborn of all most genetically determined I would say They're I would say they're opposite of stubborn they're not stubborn they're on or off okay CU because your average 45y old fat dude is gonna like have have better CS than 90% of pro bodybuilders and anyone big forearms that I've ever met has never trained forearms I never trained forearms you know I think I think it's just an honor off and I don't know I mean I shouldn't say it completely because my C

sucked less than they started but I trained c i I think It's a dual thing I think problem with Cavs especially is that I see like eight week casts or people try this I'm going to wear these jump shoes or I'm going to do train casts every day it's like no one would say like I'm going to train chest every single day for eight weeks and expect to have a big chest yeah at all that just comes back to your four grams of protein a day analogy right and so like for me what it was

is cuz I because my CS always sucked and I would Do those things I would like try this weird program and be mad when two months later my CS weren't big and and so finally at one point I decided I was like you know what cuz I would train on leg day and I would do them at the end of legs and it was so easy to skip them and I was like one time I was like I I did like two sets I was like that's good I was like you know I would never

say two sets was enough for biceps or chest or back so I decided I was going to Start every leg workout with Cass and I wouldn't do anything until I did like a full calf workout and that that was when my cast started being like a a decent body part M yeah and did was there visual like so like from one show to the next no I mean from like one year like for over a 5year period there was visual yeah that was the thing which is the same as like you know like any other

body part you know like no over a 6 we six month period no over a 5e period Yeah they clearly grew they still weren't like an amazing body part but they they grew where what I was doing like hoping that 6 weeks was going to change them that never worked but I mean I guess that kind of feeds into what you were on about earlier like with the the dumbbell curl and the progression right like putting 1% on a deadlift every week is very possible adding an inch to a forearm that's 15 in versus adding

an inch to a chest that's 50 in exactly the The proportional growth that you're expecting there is is triple or or whatever it might be and so much of it as muscle shape like if you like you know I mean my forearms go all the way I don't know if you can see you know they just like go all the way to my like hat to my palm you know like there's and like if you have like someone just a forarm like down there yeah and then just all tend in here same with Cavs like

if you got like like those Runners Cavs where they're just a little C right of the knee like you see like an Eric frankow or someone with crazy Cavs the Cavs go down to their heel you know it's like you said like a 15th chest there's a lot of meat there yeah so I think just so much genetic you can always improve because you can have a lot of people have genetically shitty arms no one ever gives up on training biceps like a lot of guys have really high I got one now by torn bicep

but a lot of guys have Really high biceps they don't just not train biceps and be like yeah my genetics you know but they'll never look like Arnold Schwarzenegger's biceps but they'll be bigger version of shitty biceps if you train them consistently for a decade one of the things that went through my head when you were talking about training is when we peel it back and you're looking say beginners or intermediates and you're looking at volume and so if we got volume then we Got intensity like the weight what I've seen is you'll have say

the 30 lb dumbbell press guy right that's all they can do and they it's all volume so they're going to say 30 they're never going to get strong enough to be able to use hundreds right to where in my brain I would think if they can use 60s 70s 80s or hundreds for reps they're going to be bigger than if they can use the 40s for reps now over 15 years you know there's going to be Diminishing returns right to where 405 bench for 10 15 20 may not be necessary may not may not be

necessary for a pro level bodybuilder but I could probably argue and say being able to do 315 for sets of 10 is yes so then when you're looking at the debate of volume is really what we're talking about right high volume low volume it should be phasically structured in there to be able to build the strength to be able to use the weight that's going to Be able to build more muscle mass I've always said I would I think the next body I always said this but I've thought this I think like we talk about

steroids and the like the leap forwards and bodybuilding I think a potential Leap Forward and bodybuilding would be if powerlifters got really into bodybuilding because the way you guys design your training programs is so meticulous and thought out we're bodybuilders half the time it's like What are you training today chust what are you doing well you know and you decide why you're in the gym you know and I think like if if someone from a powering background it's just the timeline to get good at each thing is so long it's probably unlikely but someone who

reached a high level powerlifting but was still young enough to also have time to get reach high level in bodybuilding and took that same meticulous wellth thought out approach To training and applied it to hypertrophy I think we would potentially see another another boom cuz when I like when I was training like Ben poock like seeing the way he designed his workout I was like H this is like you know like I had back day you know and I thought like my back day was like I want to pull and then after that I'll just

figure it out you know where he was like you know everything down to you know rpe the rest periods and you know and you saw how Inc I mean he went from trying to make 181 for for the US Open and powerlifting to competing at 281 in like a year you know and you think to find the die cost to be really funny there because like power you know we're talking stereotypes obviously but like powerlifters will have the 16 we program to the nth degree with every RP RP 8.4 recurring and be like uh I'm

going to eat Wendy's cuz I feel hungry and the the bodybuilder like it's back day and just look around but They'll tell you how much protein they ate three weeks ago on Wednesday or whatever exctly well the the big commonality between those two before you get to the super high level is the fall off after the competition yeah right because they don't see they don't want the coach for the off seon which is where they actually need the coach they only that what you're trying to refine that should have been developed or enhanced during that

off season and That seems to be the same with both yes like meets over [ __ ] it I just I'm going to do bodybuilding which you know fluff and buff or whatever they're going to do yeah with no real emphasis or you know the bodybuilder on the same thing is well now I'm in offseason so they'll still train hard but they're not thinking about this is actually where you grow MH that's interesting you say that cuz like like like like prep is just P prettying up the work you did in The offseason but that's

what everyone signs on with you for prep and it's like I can't change all I can do is pretty up the work that's already been done you know the the the change happens outside of problem yeah for sure do you think though you know may you said about powerlifters getting into bodybuilding there do you think an intermediary between that might be a return of periods of heavier strength-based training in bodybuilding could maybe Kind of bridge that gap between programming the attention to detail go the attention to detail absolutely I think there's an interesting thing is

you won't find a mass monster in bodybuilding who's not strong like Jay Cutler didn't train heavy he trained volume but he could rep four5 on incline you know that's strong well at some point he was train like there's like I said there's a there's a point right and I think that's Where people that are aspiring to be like those people make the mistake they don't realize at that point they're not worried about getting that much stronger um God we could probably even make the case for top level powerlifters as well you know at a certain

point they're they're going people hate what I'm going to say they're not really worried about getting stronger per se they're worrying about coming into the next meet to be able to display the Strength they actually have better because the other thing like that is cuz it's hard you like when you get to the upper upper limits there you will it's every every big lift is an injury R you know and that's like that's the limit like guys burst on the scene how many of them stick around you know and if you do stick around it's

it's just like I always think with powerlifting like whenever I see like that lha is weightlifting but was he from uh Georgia The lha that like and he he beats his own records by a few percent every time and you can see he could do way more and I always think like we'll probably never know what he could do because you don't get an infinite number of those know you know yeah you know like you don't get like an infinite number of thousand pound benches or thousand PB squats you know everyone is a very nonzero

risk of injury and that's like it's at that level I guess we could look at that Offseason is just kind of being in maintenance mode yeah like don't get that much weaker don't get that much yeah you probably have more room cuz you probably have more room wherever your strength level is optimizing it for the meat you probably have more variants there than actually getting stronger yeah now before them right then we have that block of people that we're talking so where that probably should be phasic you know kind of leading into that and When

they look to those other people that's what gets lost yeah sure they're looking at people at a different point of the journey and you should be mirr you should be mirroring what they did five years ago you know yeah I mean as you said earlier if you have you know 280 pounds of lean muscle mass the dieting is going to be a different game you know the Chlor the calories are going to be higher you know as you and I think people mishar that cuz you hear People say like well don't look what they're doing

now look they did to get there and that doesn't mean that they're not trying to progress anymore you know like use color example it's just that again like yeah he can bench for Incline 405 for sets a ton but the risk factor SC higher you know the workload is higher the recovery is higher and it's not that he's not trying to get bigger you know it's just that you have like it's always some weird combination of Strength volume intensity workload you know and they're always trying to they're trying to navigate that but you don't you

don't increase all those without getting strong in the process and I think the bit that maybe gets loster you maybe it's more relevant in powerlifting but it's still relevant in bodybuilding cuz absolute loads will or should increase you know absolute stress will increase you know if you're a powerlifter doing 5x5 at 80% and your Max squat is8 is 800 versus 400 the 800 squat is done for a week you know and same in bodybuild if you've got a 20 work set chest and bicep workout and you're 30% stronger than LIF B the neurological fatigue The

Joint stress the ligaments and the tendon you know so again looking at them using as a role model it's like well you know maybe they would love to do one more set but maybe that one more set is the difference to being able to train tomorrow and not Yeah so over time it becomes less because the the workload is higher two things with that I remember I remember seeing like well I was always confused by volume because I would see guys saying they did like 40 sets for legs and I would picture like a set

you know like a like a 585 for 12 on squats and I'm like there's no way that's you know but and it's like different than what people describe but I think also I think me at Least I definitely like you realize how poor memory is when I would try to remember what my old workouts were and then like the archives I don't know if they're still up the old training log the archives I remember going back and looking and the actual volume I did in like 2007 2008 was so much lower than I thought you

know I was like I was shocked but like cuz the numbers were so high it's like my like one leg workout was like 605 for8 545 for 12 four five For 20 on squat you know and then I think I did leg leg extensions leg curl stiff leg and Cavs you know but and but I'm like I only did like six sets for quads you know yeah but then I was like well [ __ ] that's like 605 for8 545 yeah I mean I was probably like on the verge of a heart attack right there

but if you did volume load mhm reps times weight just from that squat alone yeah if well if you do workload work work is force times distance and the force is the Weight and so if you do the weight times the distance of the number of reps yeah that workload is really high so yeah I would no wonder you're kind especially 4 cuz this was a time when I was uh I just kind of like you know like you fall into volume or you just always think more is better and I remember like being so

beat up and like God how did I used to do my old workouts and then I went on the archives and I was like I remember one back work out was uh I think 495 for two Sets of like whatever my warmup was 495 for two sets of five on deadlift so it must not have been like like just not all out intensity and then I think it was like 365 uh for whatever on Ben over rose again not crazy and then it was like 275 and it said 90° so I must have been flat

and then pull Downs that was it I was like that's like three sets I was but they were I mean and that was when I was my absolute biggest I mean I don't know If I wrote everything down or but I was just just really when I remember looking back and being shocked cuz I was like man it seemed like I did way more but it was for most of them it was the the high the hard sets were just really really really hard and then it was almost like it looked like I was like

I went in exercise one I was a powerlifter and just Tred to get really really strong and then after that it was like just I think also maybe a bit there that Gets under yes the absolute load is higher but RP is great but your perception of RP does change over time and the more advanced experience you get your 10 does creep up so you you your your red lining a set is different to what your red lining ass set was years in the I always load changes that too I benefit that greatly like half

my coaching career is probably benefit of the fact that I'm an explosive lifter cuz I all like I would be at Absolute Failure because for me either the weight moves like this if it saws it just Plum it straight back down and so I would be like one more pound and I was failing that lift and I would be like oh man Throw Some Way in the bar you had eight more reps and it's like oh thank God I'm an explosive lifter cuz that was it for me and then something like Grinders are just is

a totally different thing you're the worst type of person to spot yeah cuz you're like it will go from Just it'll drop right on me that was terrible I call I call that like cuz pretty much everybody has that with a close grip bench press you're just not grinding through a close grip it's just it's coming up there's no it doesn't even like I had that when I was working at J with the guys who worked there was a basketball player he was like 6'6 and as explosive as a pro basketball player should be and

like spotting him on bat Squat you didn't know what was going on like every sing it could be rep one it could be rep 19 every single one you're like this could be it get die bombing down and you're like I have no idea what's going to happen that's like Shane Hammond like you find those old videos of him squatting it's like every even though I know he's going to get the lift I still think he's just crumbling under the weight yeah yeah as well if we don't mind if we move on to Nutrition I

know you always get asked everything on nutrition just just a couple if that's cool so the LIE of not eating enough to lose weight I put this in there purposely to wind you up elaborate on that a little bit so people know what you're talking about so the the you're saying it's a myth in your Instagram Pro and I'm not saying that to disagree with you that it's possible for someone to undereat to the degree where it inhibits their Ability to lose body weight yeah that's what we're talking about here like the thing that people

don't understand is a calorie is not a nutrition term the calorie is an energy term and like one of the absolute facts of the universe is energy is conserved it's not created or destroyed there's some amount of energy in the universe and that's it and so a calorie has nothing to do with nutrition calor is just a unit of energy so all calories inverse calories out is saying That it's the same as your car it's like if I put 20 gallons of gas in cuz gas you can measure BTU you can measure gas and calories

you put 20 gallons of gas in you get 20 gallons of energy out of it that's all it is so has nothing to do with nutrition it's it's it's so much it's so much a thing that uh like you don't like big oil you like you don't you know well if if you could eat less than you burn and somehow gain weight that means you created energy out of Thin air if that was possible even once go to you know go to Switzerland present your studies you'll you they'll hand you the no prize that day

but not only that you're the world's first trillionaire cuz we don't have to rely on electricity we don't have to rely on Big Oil we don't have to rely on nuclear we just have you walk in the room and just create energy it's like people don't understand what that means and it's misleading because what happens like if I have 100 if this thing's 100 calories the process that goes through in digestion varies but the fact is if if I however I burn it if I burn 90 calories and I eat 100 calories so or or

the opposite what they're saying if I like if I'm not eating enough if I if I eat 100 calories and burn 500 calories I lose that 500 calorie from stored energy of the body 100% that's the only way it works because if you can every physicist of The last 150 years has dreamt of just proving conservation of energy because time travel becomes possible you know we we can like Infinite Energy becomes possible everything becomes I mean the it basically breaks the universe the fundamental basis of reality and the way the universe works is that energy

is conserved in I mean in everything if energy isn't conserved then I could go run head first into a semi going 100 miles an hour and make the semi Smash Up And me just you know like I'm like all those things are conservation of momentum conservation of energy all of it the reason we go around the Sun is conservation energy we're not traveling around the Sun we're traveling this way the the the the sun has some amount of gravity that that basically acts like gravitational energy creates a potential gravitational potential energy that we follow into

but because we're traveling that way and there's it it travels a Little bit this way because there's no friction we're constantly drifting that way and it just turns everything everything the way the world the universe works is based on that there's no I mean you know like the reason a light bulb gets hot is because it releases heat energy and that's all a calorie is is a measure of energy so you that's not what happens at all it's it's it it just it's just not if you if you burn 2,000 calories and eat 1,000 Calories

you lose 1,000 calories of stored energy now after that it gets more complicated your car is easy because we only have one type of energy gasoline or diesel our body store eny three ways we have stored body fat um muscle proteins or proteins and carbs or glycogen and so like we can trick that system as far because people think like they think only body fat you know like we can trick the system I can like we did the high Days we can create a state where we eat more than we burn and don't gain body

fat we still store that energy we're just storing it as glycogen so there's some like minutia and some you know Nuance to it but no that's you don't like if that were true then people wouldn't be dying in Somalia you know they'd be all fat not eating enough so the the typical report here is from my headphones off again so the typical retort there from from coaches will be I've worked with clients where they're eating 600 calories a day their weight is stagnant I put them up to, 1500 calories a day lo and behold they

lose weight yeah how many what was your car expenditure yeah okay so that's one so in those scenarios when people are putting forward those cuz you know people will use that as the starvation well that's what they only look at one they calories it's calories in versus calories out if you it put more calories In but put even more calories out so if they were eating 600 Cal they weren't they weren't you put someone on 600 calories a day they're telling you they're eating 600 calories they're not they're they're munching and nibbling and little things

that probably don't you know I don't know that was one peanut that doesn't count you know but if that were true then they were somehow burning less than 600 calories and you can imagine if you're only eating 600 Calories you're not moving you're doing this 24 hours a day and try not to die so you put them on, 1500 calories now their step count doubles their workload in the gym doubles they're getting up they're not they're not wearing a diaper anymore they're actually walking to the restroom and their calorie so yeah that's that's definitely possible

you had them eat more and they lost weight because they burn more if they don't burn more that doesn't happen yeah so so That's that's why I was trying I was trying to ruffle your feathers really like it does it doesn't really like it it's I mean cuz it's it's not it it doesn't it bother it doesn't bother me that people don't understand it bothers me that like people use it coaches are experts that yeah that don't understand that they don't know what they're talking about yeah there there are lots of cases where you can

add if you not lots of cases every single case if you Add calories to someone's diet and they burn even more calories as a result they're going to lose weight but has nothing to do with the fact that like yeah it is calories in versus calories out but people forget and that's not that's not I hate even saying that cuz people think that's Up For Debate that's it's energy in versus energy out yeah which and which like and no other energy would you think that's different no one else thinks they don't if they don't pay

Their electrical bill be like yeah shut it off I don't care energy electricity in electricity out doesn't matter I pay I get less electricity I get more lights but I think the thing that gets lost there is that people forget that calories in and calories out mainly calories out obviously is a multifactoral equation obviously calories in is pretty unal we'd like to think but here we've got obviously you've got said already said Activity level exercise neat even hormonal Health you know if someone is down regula all those things affect Cal and then you know then

then we're also looking at weight as a barometer of you know energy which isn't necessarily true if that low calorie intake is causing water reten yeah weight at best is a 30% accurate approximation of calorie because you know roughly 70% of our body is noncaloric weight you know so so that's why I hate the scale I think like If no one invented a scale all a scale is is that someone realized if you coil any like metal or any system that that maintains Integrity or anything that you and you can compress it it it the

the amount it takes to compress it further and further is linear and so the the energy of a spring goes goes like negative KX where X is the distance and K is that spring constant so all your scale is is some spring and you step on it and the farther it compresses it Knows how much force it took to do that after equal Chao and like yeah and so that's so that someone figured that out like our committees or someone figured out 2,000 years ago some someone's like well then we can know how much our

body compresses a spring and now we decide that that that decides how much fat we have but you know like I said I could drink this and go step in the scale and gain two pounds I didn't gain two pounds of weight I gain two pounds of water I Could diet a thousand calorie deficit this is another this is another reason why people won't believe that so let's say that I do lower calories a th calor deficit a day which would be 2 pounds of fat a week and as a result I'm eating less carbs

less food that tastes good so I'm salting my meals heavier because I'm hungry I'm drinking more water and and so I drink this eat a bunch of sodium and I did lose two pounds this week but that weighs three pounds I step on the Scale I gained a pound I go see doesn't work I eat less I gain weight like well you did gain weight you just lost body fat yeah so in in in reality like all those kind of like with most things it it just comes from like a vast oversimplification of the process

when really what people don't want to say is actually it's a little bit more complicated than that cuz it involves x y and Zed but it's even yeah it's even worse it's like people argue against Calories in versus calories out by only arguing calories in or saying it's all hormones like it's all irrelevant as long as home like if you don't Spike insulin you can eat 10,000 a day or whatever that's another frustrating thing insul people say insulin uh I don't have them insulin will gain body fat it's actually you can be leaner with insulin

and I'll say why say you give any static caloric intake okay so I'm eating whatever I eat this Exact same diet and I eat this diet eat this diet eat this diet eat this diet and now I add a small amount of insulin to that diet what happens some of that those calories that might have otherwise been stored as fat some of those carbohydrate calories now have the potential to be stored as glycogen calories in versus calories out is still maintained ra but rather than staring those few carbohydrates that rather than going through the fatty

acid synthesis Pathway they get stores glycogen because the insulin's forcing that some of those amino acids that might otherwise go through glucon neogenesis and then the fatty acid synthesis pathway might now be stored as muscle proteins so calories in vers calories out is sustained but I'm actually leaner by using insulin and I mean that's the same with um cortisol right everyone's like oh cortisol the fat stor it's like well actually it's the polar opposite it's a it's a an Energy yeah tool to release energy go go become a yeah become a torture like a prisoner

for some like someone some sadas who loves to torture you you're going to have cortisol Sky High see how see how ripped you are after a while ask anyone with ask anyone with Addison's disease what it's like to have no cortisol like you got what Happ the problem is chronically elevated you know like anything you can't it's going to downgrade that system speaking of then If we're looking at from a nutrition standpoint obviously competition prep very high time you've already mentioned you know people getting 2 4 hours of sleep whatever how do you try to

mitigate the inevitable High quartis all levels and all the things that come with that for your athletes that are going through those preps I know there's only so much you can do you be surprised I don't okay I don't because like there's there's not much you can do I mean what You get uh I can't remember the name anymore CU you can't find it anymore what was that old cortisol product oh man you never you I haven't seen it in 20 years but there used to be something people took oh man mobile bazena was on

it when he died it just came to me and then it went away yeah same it's like right there uh what was it marketed as it wasn't for bodybuilding bodybuilders well no it never is but the best things Ever are H yeah hopefully Dave figures out but uh used to be that then there's the foso stering or saying that right but that you're not going to limit it and I from my view what I've realized is like you have to decide what's worth because you're not working with a robot yes with a robot there's a

level cortisol I can take this and lower it and it lowers with a human the cortisol comes from here yes and the more they're thinking about I just learned that Whenever I would like whenever I would worry about it and have people do all these things for cortisol they they would stress worse and so like it's almost like I hope they don't think about it you know if they bring it up I'll have a discussion I'll say yeah there's nothing you can do about it and I do this all the time I say at this

point the only thing that can make you look wor H you got it cyen yeah cyen yeah Yeah that used to be something you could take but it was like not I mean that was dangerous but like uh it's hard but I always say like picture your top bodybuilder and what are they they they look like like some pothead who can't be [ __ ] to care about anything you know I remember like remember when uh Ry Winkler used to haveo with them and she'd have to like tell him to eat you know be like

playing a video games you have to it's like or Ronnie Coleman why Does he look like you know that's why like I always say the only thing that's going to affect the way you look to the worst at a certain point in the at the end of a a diet is stress you now if you're someone who stresses then you you can't take a supplement to fix it you know and so almost like the idea of the dumb meat head I think came from that is that like the only people become successful in the sport

are the people who are like [ __ ] Whatever they can just switch off yeah just they're just not high stress people yeah and it's like there but so I always say like there's not much you can do about it you can here's the truth like if if you don't stress you're not going to look worse mhm so if you do stress you're going to look worse that's it you know I can't there's no product I can do that'll make you not I mean I can give you like THC or but that can make it

even worse if you know too much you get You know anxious but then you know like that's the fact of the matter and so that's it's just the the type of person who becomes a top bodybuilder is a calm relaxed [ __ ] whatever I think Christine I think was the person that said it to me once where he said that the the bodybuilder who misses his Peak is the bodybuilder that misses his Peak because he's worried about missing exactly 100% yeah those are the people that miss it J because they because they're worried About

missing it they do miss it and it's like a selfa self energizing and like you and you see it happen I've worked with so many incredibly gifted athletes over the years who have all the tools I mean you know like hyper responders grow from anything amazing appetite don't get fat no matter how much you feed them every gift you'd want you get them in in prep and they start getting you know closer to the show and the the stress and it's it's so it sucks To see it happen CU you even explain to them it's

like look dud you got to calm the only thing that can ruin anything now you there's no reason you're not a pro I know I know that's why it's so important I know I know I got everyone tell it's like no I'm tell you got to stop that that's you know that's it there's there's nothing I can do for that it's you're either you know like some people have ice in their veins and some don't you know like it always Cracks me up what's his name Graham benzinger or something do you remember when Chris Farley

used to do that skit where he interviewed people and he like one time he interviewed pal he like remember when you were with the Beatles that was that was awesome there's this guy gr Graham benington I think is his name I don't know how he got the position because that's how he interviews he's like Chris but he interviews all these amazing people and It's hilarious cuz he interviews all these incredible athletes like Lawrence Taylor Jo nameth you know and he's every single time he's or Dennis romman he's shocked when they tell him like oh yeah

yeah night before the Super Bowl so I'm banging this hooker and my wife's calling and and he's like H I thought you had the super he's like oh yeah yeah I had the Super Bowl but I was waiting for my Coke hit to come in and it's like you got the biggest game of your life And it's like no that these guys have ice in their veins they're animals that's why that's why Lawrence Taylor was Lawrence Taylor cuz none of that met faced him that's why D Dennis Robin could fly to Vegas in between games

not sleep come back those they're different people you know like they if you either have that or you don't but it's watch those those interviews they're hilarious CU every time he's interview like someone before the biggest game where Like someone like Graham would be like I need to go to bed by this time eat this meal these guys are like oh [ __ ] I got a game in three hours like how much blow you got I need this I'm put this in my pocket you know it's like cuz they're just they're animals you know

and they no stress no concern they're just hyper confident no worry like yeah and you either have that or you don't I say you can usually see the the guys who perform best on game day whatever game day is Like if you look at them in practice they just look like they just don't care because they're just like so laidback they're like horizontal was that uh wasn't Alan werson didn't practice we're talking about practice yeah they're just because they just have this infinite curve that they can go up in terms of arousal and stress and

just just so low down here frustrated like when they're like the type of person who's like you know like we used to call them like Thursday all Americans for football you know and like they get all me like I bust my ass and the you know it's like I get it but like that like to a point to to some level that's holding you back you know like yeah like for one you're either Lawrence Taylor or you're not you know and if you are like Lawrence Taylor getting eight hours of sleep doesn't become a different

athlete Lawrence Taylor's L Taylor and a large reason why he was is because he could not sleep not And go out doesn't matter for 60,000 people the whole world watching game on the line like game on the line you give Michael Michael Jordan the basketball why cuz he's going to make the shot where like a normal person like oh my God God the whole you know if I don't make this we lose the whole season's over you know where he's like give me the [ __ ] ball so we can win you know like if

you're wired like that choking just becomes a nonissue right and that's That's and it's even crazier cuz I watch this with my kids playing like the best athlete they like the like Kobe Bryant like Miss more shots than anyone you like they don't make more necessarily they're just not afraid to take the you know and that when it matters like that small they're not a better they're not that much of a better shooter you know there might be 50/50 but you're both 50-50 from the free throw line in practice when the game's on the line

He's still 50/50 you know you're you're 2080 CU you're nervous as [ __ ] and that's this is like yeah and you can't teach and the same with bodybuilding like like like the top guys look like they just got done smoking a joint when they're you know about to walk on stage that's why they're the top guys cuz it Doesn't them do you ever see like Trends in those that are like let's call it's the bodybuilding equivalent of choking I suppose right like and they maybe people That it's almost too important to them or maybe

they don't have enough going on outside of bodybuilding maybe it's almost always too important yeah you know what I mean like if bodybuilding is all you've got you haven't got a career you like or a family or whatever like this is your everything then almost there's too much writing on it yeah and body B is a perfect storm for it because it's so easy to lose your way why because conscious prep is so hard so Hard it's the hardest thing you'll do and so at some point it veers from like getting into shape getting into

shape peeking the hardest thing I've ever done they're very similar almost the whole way but at some point it no longer just becomes how hard can I work and it needs to be I got to do the right things to Peak properly and some people they don't they don't realize it's veered off and they they still they it stops being I need to look as good as possible on Stage to they turn in I need to work as hard and suffer as much as possible because for most a prep working as hard and suffering as

much as possible is what gives the best look on stage but they're not perfectly linear and they Veer at some point and the biggest thing is and it's the people put so much importance they latch onto that must work harder must suffer more must do more and it's their detriment sure do you find that also bleeds over into the Gym for a lot of them as well like they're always the ones that presume that the harder super crazy training workouts that leave them dead on the floor obviously are the most productive ones right and that's

how they should train yeah and and it's it's hard to convince people otherwise but like do any of us not want to grow if if doing a 100 sets like maybe not I'm older now but like it take me at age 27 and you told me training eight hours a day was What would make me you know 350 biggest humans ever existed the strongest human that I'd say all right what what kind of loan can I get to to not have to work for the next two years so I can do this I without you

know like none of us would yeah yeah so it goes back to that like pick a number of set where you can you can say I can guarantee that you know none of us can look at our workouts and say I can guarantee if I did one more set I would be bigger because we would Be doing that one more set already but do do you think in in those athletes saying we can probably apply this to powerlifters and every other kind of competitor like those ones that are always running that line of whatever is

the most grueling and hard and whatever must be the right path do you think sometimes actually for them the end goal isn't the end goal like being they might body but actually it's it's almost the suffering and the process that in it for It is 100% rather than whatever this is at the and to go back to powerlifting like I always hear so many times people get so mad be like that's so easy for him it's not fair get get all mad like he doesn't even care it's like no he does he's doing all the

right things he's just not he's doing all the right things you're doing all the right things plus a bunch of extra things that end up being the wrong things he does he's not he knows this one needs to be done and He's not worried about did I need to do more he's you know that this at some point either I or a coach or someone with a logical brain devised this program and we decided under logical thinking that this was the optimal approach and that's what I do and like that's what the top guys do

and then the guys who aren't the top guys who try to do more than that get all mad and they say just comes so easy it's not fair comes it doesn't matter what he does he You know it comes easy for him it's like he doesn't even care it's like no he does he cares enough to to do what's right not do what's more I would say he cares more right because it's it's it's that weird thing where if you use that I like to use that Allin principle you know people like to be Allin

on the things that they want to be Allin on but not the things that they actually need to be all in on and that you know the better somebody gets the More they realize those other things matter more M you know how they're able to handle stress say the last two weeks you know if somebody has an issue with all that wouldn't you think they'd be working on that all year round you know what things can they do to kind of mitigate their ability to be able to handle stress throughout the whole year so when

that comes around again they're a little better at it than they were the last time but they won't Because they don't perceive that as that struggle that you're talking about that's in the weight room lifting hard stuff yeah it's hard but it's a harder struggle way harder yeah yeah it's it's it's easy to obsess and think like I need to work hard in the gym and that's what's going to make me better than to think I need to finish my workout get a good night's rest you know I need to not fight with my wife

it's like you know those things don't that's the those are Really the things that are harder to do because they don't seem like you know it seems like spending more time in the gym doing more you know but really it's like when when the you do the job at the gym are you looking to boost recovery enhance your sex drive and improve performance in the gym do you think your hormones are out of whack and you're tired of getting the runaround from your doctor you know things like your hormones are just fine stop lifting Heavy

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well I really can't believe it so I'm sure they're going to tell you all the details down below or the side or somewhere but this thing is absolutely amazing 73 lbs guys 73 lb all right guys you like the podcast but maybe you're a little tired of all the interruptions we set up a YouTube membership you'll get extra content and it's all ad free join today and then the who can shut it off and well one Involves aggression and the other one involves being passive yeah you know where the aggression one is going to scratch

a certain itch that we all [ __ ] love and have where the passion one may go against you know somebody's pure biology that I wake up every morning wanting to kill people and I have to spend the rest of the day not trying to kill people right so that I mean and that's just the psychology of the whole thing you know to be able to Figure out that balance and that's where a lot of people just screw all up they don't think it's fair and they think the other person doesn't care unless we were

to lay everything out and that would be an interesting case study right to take that you know here's a person that you think doesn't care let's lay everything out yeah all the things that can all of them all the things that impact your performance to to beneficially which ones are you doing Which ones he do now let's lay yours out oh wait a minute maybe this person who doesn't care yeah actually cares way more yep that's exactly it and yeah I mean and yeah 100% and whether it's like comes across as ice in their veins

or the weird yeah like the weird thing is cuz it comes across as like you can't it can't be doesn't care it can't be bothered to care but it's the exact opposite mhm sure so one other thing I wanted to mention with nutrition CU Again it's one that gets debated a lot but again you mentioned on your Instagram recently so to cover it which was the idea that a person should solidify or be stable at a weight for a while before dieting down or perhaps even dieting down and stabilizing there before regaining so you were

suggesting in your post that that was something that has some Merit to I want I want to clarify I don't I don't have a I don't have a stance either way okay on the Merit I was merely saying what I think is probably happening okay so I was saying when someone solidify what like I was trying to say if that's a thing if that actually does happen what what could potentially be happening and then from that is there a benefit to it so yeah so I don't I'm not saying that I necessarily believe that but

I was saying it's very likely that early adaptations are more psychop which is and the the like the thinking behind That was like if you do a bodybuilding contest prep I don't know why I'm putting that way but if you do a bodying contest prep you can get like your biggest growth rate ever is that six week period after the show uh you're not adding tissue at that the at the you know you might be adding 40 pounds you're not adding contracto tissues obviously much of it is sarcoplasmic growth and I think probably I think

it's safe to make an argument that it's like That if you jump right back into a diet a lot of those SAR citations will go away if however if you solidify which I I don't even I'm not saying that's a term I'm saying no I get you but we know what it means when we say it what's probably happening is all those sarcoplasmic adaptations now allow for more myof fibr growth the rest of the air and so your size and your body mass doesn't seem to change that much but the gains are solidifying meaning that

those Early sarcoplasmic adaptations are kind of coming back to Baseline a little bit but that those allowed the M fibral adaptations to happen in the end result looks like not much progress as far as size but it actually is because now those Gams are more permanent cuz the myof FiOS stuff doesn't fall off really quick the psychop plasmic does big time and you can really see the difference like like well look at d NES now and like age 60 still jacked you know but Then look like like fluff and buff bodybuilders like pure pump cuz

you know uh cuz D train heavy and hard and that sticks around and you and you look a lot of all powerlifters I mean Bill Casmir is still [ __ ] huge you know he's he's old you know and I think so I think that the M stuff is what sticks around you know I think that's probably what what's happening not that I like I'm not stating in a an argument for or against Either I'm just saying assuming there is solidifying that's probably what it is but I mean if we go back to again your

your perspective on hypertrophy and how long it actually takes to build any real amount of tissue that kind of all flows into it right because let's say you put on those 40 lbs in 6 to 8 weeks how much tissue have you grown like less than a pound yeah so if you then diet back down I mean it's you might lose some contractile tissue on your diet who Knows right but you you're going to end up the same or worse or you know so you know even if saying solidifying at a weight is the wrong

term getting people to stop rushing between the phases absolutely is probably a better approach that needs to be talked about but you know whether it's someone who's coming down maybe not in a competition prep but someone who's been overweight for a long time and needs to you know I I hate the term set point but everyone's going to Know what I mean when I say that right like learning what it takes to have a the the habits and behaviors that actually maintain that body weight as opposed to just ballooning back up or in this scenario

like someone who's put on a lot of psychop plasmic hypertrophy but actually needs to build structure now so that when they D it down they have something to actually unveil like all of that plays into having that longer term approach and viewpoint on both phases of The the diet you know as opposed to just this yoyo quick cut I think we could probably yeah like we could find a better term for it I think if you viewed it as you when you diet down you come out of a diet with high appetite High motivation High

storage rates of O nutrients and so for there's a period of time where you kind of create these adaptations that if you utilize properly allow you for a better off season if you viewed them more that way then you Wouldn't view that all that cuz what happens is and I can understand it because you di it you you didn't do as good as your show as you wanted and you make all this progress and you think let's die it again now I've added all this muscle that doesn't work but if you view it as I

didn't add all this muscle I added all this kind of fake muscle that's going to allow me to add muscle the rest of the year then it'll make more sense why you shouldn't rush things Sure so it's almost like a like a foundation or like a pre-build like that postow bounceback is like laying the foundations for a successful longer term add a bonus room to the house and you got all the all the you know the the framing up and stuff but it's not a you know not finished room yet for sure and do you

find like with with people who maybe have taken that approach this kind of goes back maybe a little bit to having shows close together but you know When you've had people who have maybe been stuck in that cycle of competing too often and going through that cycle repeatedly do you find that over time there becomes some form of resistance to getting down to those kind of body fat levels I don't think so or do you find it the opposite like it gets easier more the opposite but I think uh there's additional things I think all

things being equal it gets it's the opposite it gets easier but I think what happens is Is by never yeah I don't know what what's that a rain oh okay I think I think it like going back to the David dirt thing I think it's the the frequent harshness on the body sure it it becomes I think T typically like the more you die the like it's almost like your body remembers yeah but if you do things too often too frequently sure yeah the body just starts breaking down so there's kind of a sweet spot

there where you think doing it frequently enough keeps That ability to drop to that zone kind of yeah and I think that's that's I think that can almost make things even worse for everyone because because I've used the argument like guys will compete you know at Nationals every year and they're the same weight class same body weight eight years in a row then they turn pro and they compete three times in a year and they make a ton of progress and so that'll start looking like well geez I should compete more it's like no There's

they're probably right on that cuz if you compete three times a year what what happens that first show is probably piggy backed off and they turn pro so that's really like the same prep so they really competed twice that year and if you look at it that way they get a huge rebound cuz they did a long diet plus an extended Diet before they did that first pro show they got a huge rebound then they basically have a full off seon then they do another diet then Maybe a shorter offseason you know another diet so

technically it's like three shows in a year but it was really like two shows it was like that first one was really should have been included on the year previously but I think probably for some some period of time not forever but a like a couple year period I I would argue you could probably accelerate growth by competing more than once a year but not much more than that so why what's the mechanism Behind that is it just the the diminished returns of being in a gaining phase for too long yeah I think and it

goes like I think you get your growth kind of goes like this you di it down you get all that sarcoplasmic growth and you get like 75% of your growth in like that six week period and then it Trails off and what's probably happened is that sarcoplasmic adaptations are turning into M fi but that you know that goes ASM totically to zero to where by the End of the offseason you're not really making any progress so if you can cut it off you know here you you have like a 3mon period where there's almost no

gains if you cut if you can time it perfectly you know you time it perfectly and then from there you've kind of Hit the point where your progress slowed off that you've solidified the gains you know then start the next prep and you can kind of get the but I I think it's a fine line and if you if you cut it too Close it it's you know if you do it you know like three shows a year you're probably cutting into harming things so it's it's it's not something you want to toy with and

you probably only get a few years of it but I think you can look at body builders you know like historically they do the Olympia contest season the Olympia season and the Arnold season and they tend to make good progress for a period of time and then either they start fading out and looking worn or They they get to where they can be a you know a once a year competitor like a top guy who only has to do the Arnold or you know only has to do the Olympia now hold on because you may

have covered this but I had to step out real quick if it's if it's a non-competitive but somebody just wants to get big and jacked how deep would they have to go in that diet prep to be able to CU what you're talking about is a phasic structure to be able to lead to more growth right so if They're 20% and they go to 15% and then back to 20% is that going to be deep enough to be able to do what you're talking about probably probably a few percent below 8% but not more now

it's misleading because the like and Paul Barnett like built a whole career on this like I I actually because I worked with him for his first show and we over dieted him and his metabolism went insane where he was losing like three and four lounds a day and like we Couldn't save it and so after his show I was like hey man I was like look I'm not someone who like you know I I admit when I don't think I did well I think I you know I wish I could have that those last two

weeks back I said if you know if you if you go with another coach totally understand it I said but what was your detriment here is going to be your benefit because you're about to have the biggest Rebound in history and he did but it's misleading because much of that Rebound was gaining back tissue where we should so that's like it's if like if you want if if you want amazing before and afters for Instagram the the more depleted you can get the better but but all you do is for much of that period after

you're regaining what you didn't need to lose I think that that where you don't need to lose anymore that's probably a few percentage below like 8% so pretty ripped you know but but not like stage Ripped sure no it's that's that was kind of going to be my next question like for the average person how far do they need to go to get that kind of rebound benefit yeah I mean like all data the data seems to suggest and I hate to use percentage because most of this is older Data before hydrostatic before like really

accurate de but you know like like probably you know di it to like 8% a little below that so you can get a little sling and kind of that anything Below 8% you can almost create like a slingshot to shoot you back up to 8% and then slow to 12% and then back down so for most what you're talking about there is probably going to be V very visible apps yeah for sure yeah yeah and then right when you lose them is when and I say like the end point should be you know when you're

dieting and you're lean and you wake up and some days you're dry and some like when you wake up and you're dry like yeah and then when You're water you're like what the hell but you can tell when you're watering when you're dry when you get so fat that you can't tell that and everyone's been like that level where like my water I don't even know anymore it's all water yeah at that point that body Fat's too high if you can't if you don't wake up some morning be like wow I look pretty lean other

morning like je what you know then and that's probably around 12% for most people maybe a little higher 14 15 % for some people and I mean actually probably is more like 14 15% true body fat percentage but which would measure out like 12% on calipers M the only the only last question I had on nutrition was just obviously you you mentioned your carb cycling approach which is obviously something you um use to to great effect and you extremely knowledgeable and I was just curious obviously since we've mentioned those High days with the use of

insulin and Things like that how does your carb cycling approach then differ if you're dealing with individuals who aren't using any performance enhancing drugs any insulin like that I assume there has to be some kind of tailoring down because you can't obviously create as much you don't have as much tools so you know you don't build as much of a house I guess so the extremes are diff it's not extreme so you're like guys using insulin and PS they're high days might Be over 1,000 gr the guy using neither might be 550 so you know

you know like like let's say someone utilizing everything and they might you know their low days might be 300 gram carbs 250 grams carbs higher higher protein medium days might be 4 450 carbs and then High days might be even 1,200 sometimes where a guy with a similar metabolic rate you know maybe he's just big tall natural Guy high lean body mass because he's tall but he's not on PDS or insulin it Might be like low day probably pretty similar Med medium day maybe a little lower but pretty similar and high day is probably going

to be quite a bit lower sure probably you know like 60% of the carbs sure so that's you know the high days not being as high makes perfect sense but the low days and medium days less low in probably because we because you don't have the protective effect of the and we're not we're not we don't we're not trying to create such a deep Death we're not overloading on the high days cuz with someone's you're taking 1,200 grams of carbs you need to be depleted at some point in the week so the low days we're

going to have to push a little more if you're not especially if you're natural we need to keep fats a little higher we don't we know we don't have as much wiggle room as far as suppressing things so the yeah basically me days medium days probably pretty similar low days uh if if you're natural Or not on P you know probably slightly higher but not a lot and then highay is probably quite a bit lower sure but obviously not withstanding the obvious benefits of insulin PDS that that approach you believe still has pretty firm benefits

for individuals training for hypertrophy regardless ABS absolutely and I say like some people will say like oh that stuff only works if you're pounding no it absolutely it actually does work how Much more cuz you again when I work if if you're a robot and and everything can be perfect absolutely it'll work but people aren't robots and so you take Joe you know Joe sixpack you know just getting them to eat you know healthy foods like lean meat you right A lot of times that's you know all you yeah that's all you can do and

so you know like if someone's going to follow it perfectly yes but that's you know that's usually the cut off is that cuz I'm at That State right now I don't like carb cycle I just don't care enough you know so I I basically eat the same thing every day like I like o of meat with like 50 gr of carbs and sometimes I add fat and then if you know like I might add carbs around my workout if I'm training but I don't I just focus on eating like you know meat rise repeat sure

but the actual system itself like regardless of whether you're willing to adhere to or not like I said because There is that misconception that like this carb cycling premise comes from those who are using insulin and PDS and then it's not for those who are not yeah know it's for everyone it's just that you could say maybe it's 1% better yeah well so someone who's actually going to follow it and get that 1% every week for 10 years that adds up to a big difference if someone's not going to follow that precise that 1% means

nothing you got to focus on the 99% you Know and for most people that is I'll still do it because especially the high day at least because the way I do high days it feels somewhat as a cheat day because I allow sugary carbs for up to so they can have fruit some candies like you know like Twizzlers or skitt you know like it's an ideal but and so like a lot of got times with like the Joe 6 pack is the high day is less about like the to him it's less about the reason

I'm using it to him It's more like oh I get to have you know fruit with every meal I get to have you know some candy I get to have a Rice Krispy treat so it feels like a day off so it's almost like an adance tool there to make the diet less and a lot of it because I do I do cheat meals at the end of a high day which is completely counterintuitive and my reasoning for that is I found over the years I used to not give cheat meals or I used to

not give nearly as many but like I found Especially with like lay people whether you give them or not they're happening you know and sometimes they're not telling you and so and some people turn them into 12-hour cheat and that's it so what I found was that a lot what you typically what happened is they happen on a low day cuz they're hungry yeah and it's the and they they go with buddies for lunch and lunch is the cheat meal well it's it's real hard to go back to a low day of like chicken and

broccoli After so then the whole day Trans in cheat meal I was like okay High day is already a storage day we're already accepting that yeah they're going to cheat at some point let me say that it's okay for them to cheat at a time when their appetite is going to be lowest meaning they ate food a lot of food all day and they're time constrained da Dave Dave's is the reason for that well it's when the other thing when you just kind of touched on that when it's the last Meal of a high day

you kind of don't even want it either cu the high day you can't turn into a six-hour binge no I mean the high dayss to people who haven't been through all this sound very very very cool until your mouth and they are really really cool until your mouth is [ __ ] bleeding you know after yeah cuz cereal is a sugary C guys good to have and you so you put down a box of cereal and yeah you you learn you'll learn how most of your mouth is not Teeth y I mean I think my

high days with you were like 1050 oh man your metabolism is and I was like 230 at the time he was like you've just got [ __ ] tape poal I don't know I seriously want you studied yeah your metab is wild yeah if you I'm eating four sometimes five meals a day of 50 g cars 50 gram protein right now at like 250 or whatever that was you you you've never had a low day that low with me or never never had one I really didn't it's remarkable the Because most people you know like

you know like kind like the bell curve you know like like most people have an IQ of 85 to 115 almost everyone and the same thing with metabolism almost everyone has about the same metabolism but the outliers it's amazing because you get two standard deviations and they happen they're what is two standard deviations like one in 10,000 or something so they're not that rare but that's you get someone like him like three standard Deviations like one and a couple million 10 million it's like it's not even like the it's like you're a different creature it's

it it did make me feel better about my struggles I'm not going to lie even you were like I have no idea what's going on here and that's a big genetic thing like cuz I could be I like I could be 300 lb on eating less than you ate on your low day and so so like I had a good appetite but I didn't even need one it was you know and you like People don't realize like the guys with really good genetics there's two factors there's they don't need to eat much and they don't

get fat no matter what they eat and so it just makes things so easy like well do you have a good appetite yeah I'm usually pretty good all right well we'll just feed you whatever and you'll get huge and never get fat it's perfect there you go oh that's my uh question were there any topics you want to go over that we didn't bring up no we Did the protein one that cuz that 4 G or 10 G thing people get CU every time I do that people like oh yeah you you tell you tell

me to eat four grams of protein or 10 gram yeah good luck with that it's like no I'm not saying that at all I'm saying that if you gain 10 pounds of muscle if you divide that by 365 days that's how much you gain each day and then if you actually looked at if I eat 100 gram of protein how much I ingest how much gets go goes to maintaining my Organs my skin my hair it's probably well and I remember this from college specifically cuz I had a an an endurance run an endurance athlete

Professor who I think hated bodybuilders cuz every time talk about protein he would spend half the lecture explaining how bodybuilders don't know anything they don't need as much protein which is probably true but he said like uh he said that data on marathon runners showed that there on a day of marathon runner men Marathon There's a breakdown of about 75 grams of protein protein turnover so so if you look at that way it's like well [ __ ] I don't I'm not running a marathon so I'm probably only 50 to 75 gam of normal protein

turnover you know so really if you were 100% perfect you could make the argument that 80 gr could cover you for I would never make that argument but I mean I overshoot it too I'm I'm not a low protein guy I give my guys lots of protein I'm just saying like if you Actually do the numbers because if you're eating 500 grams of protein a day that's 1.1 pounds of amino acids a day so if you were using all of that to build new muscle you'd be gaining 1.1 pounds a day anything less than 1.1

pounds a day is essentially You could argue is wasted protein it's I don't think that's true but I'm saying I'm saying more that rather than just add more protein because we're already obviously eating Way more we're not gaining a pound a day why don't we is there ways we can maximize the potential that the protein we do eat it synthesizes new muscle which is insulin carbohydrates fats yeah timing of nutrients yeah and really carbohydrates I mean you give someone uh you give someone 500 gram say give someone 600 grams of protein 200 grams of carbs

and 100 grams of fat and have them eat that versus someone and have them do half the protein lower the fats A little bit and replace all those calories with carbs and add insulin into the mix I I would guarantee that over a 10year period that person is going to add more muscle mass it's not going to be obvious over a one day period or one month period but yeah for sure I mean and well is that because it's just opening up more for the protein to be muscle growth because it's not going to be

broke down for energy exactly because both cases we we know we're only getting Like 10 grams of like five grams of muscle protein synthesis or four grams even yeah it's 1 Point 1.9 gam well add up about 5 pounds of muscle a year 1.9 gram of synthesis a day so we're only getting like five grams a day max so anything more than 5 grams you know like it's not building muscle so we need more because there's more muscle protein turn over you know the organ to repair tissue you smash your arm against the table and

get a Bruise it needs to repair that you work out needs to repair it but that's much less than 500 gram so I would say we know even 300 gam is more than we'll ever synthesize so rather than do 500 gam drop it to 300 G and take that 200 g and apply it to something that can you know increase the potential of that 300 G sure and then you've got the fact that like carbohydrates stimulate igf1 mour all all that good stuff on top of that so yeah I get and also I suppose that

The logic I and even you know 300 like you said is probably very conservative right but if you're going to overeat anything it may as well be that well that's the thing too that when people hear that it's not I'm not saying low protein I'm still telling you eat a [ __ ] ton of protein I'm just saying don't eat metric [ __ ] on a protein for sure yeah like car carnivore where 90% of your car uh calories as protein is not beneficial because your protein is higher you know Whatever there's yeah and I'm

not even saying that's not yeah there's like for the lay person there's potentially a lot of a lot of benefit mostly because you're so limited with food choices it's hard to make bad food choices well that's where most success from those type of diets come from right it's just they K all the crap I I just remember a guy on professional muscle years ago was doing a protein only diet with insulin and he was so sure he was going to be The biggest human ever cuz he was eating 900 to 1,000 gr of protein almost

all from protein powders and using protein powders yeah and using insulin throughout the day and he thought that was like magic and I was like well the only way you're not dying from the insulin is because a lot of that protein is getting converted to glucose you're just eating a shitty carb Source you know like an expensive one too yeah it's like you know like that's just like like That should be obvious yes you can do it but in what case that you know like you can make a car run on vegetable oil you're not

going to win you know like L man's running out of vegetable you know like a Formula 1 car is optimized you know you can f you got people running on like their diesel cars on vegetable you can run a diesel on transmission fluid but you you know like no one's going to try to run a 9sec quarter mile on transmission fluid because it's not just Because you can do something that's like it's so weird how like know this whole sport is like well I can do this it's like yeah you can do you can do

a lot of you can eat [ __ ] most of the time and not die doesn't mean it's optimal sure yeah like you could just walk from New York to LA if you wanted to it's probably not the best way to get there there better ways to get there just because you can do it it's like no look you can do see guys you can you can you Don't even need carbs with insulin I'm eating a thousand kind of protein today no carbs and I'm using insulin yeah you can you can so what are the

things you're working on now yeah so uh this is going to be called at TP uh this is a energy product and it's uh so that's why our things are red it's an F vesa tablet just drop it in it's like Alka helzer uh I can't see the ingredient but it's it's badass it's why I'm I'm all Sweaty but uh it's got uh caffeine tea cream and a novel compound that's won't be legal forever uh hopefully stays legal for a while anyways but it's this really cool product they were looking at it for as a

neutr uh like a stimulatory neut IC it's got kind of like it's got a stimulatory structure uh like like kind of a damine structure uh and but in the studies they were looking at just for brain health Alzheimer's things like that and like 90% of participants Reported like an improved sense of well-being like high high motivation level energetic totally not intended they just wanted to see like memory recall and things like that but everyone was like I feel great I feel just like really really good it's like uh you I see is uh Big Trouble

in Little China when they give him that pill in the elevator I feel I feel good it was like that and so we sourced it and I was like same thing I was like I feel good and so We looked up and it's like God it's not illegal it's not listed that's all matters yeah you know a lot of times they get like they're not scheduled but they get put in that not for human use chunk but this isn't in there either there's two versions of it we're working on a product with the other version

is more pure neut Tropic and we're working on that for like a stim free pre-workout but we went with this first cuz this has the most I mean you can feel it from From dose one uh we've given it like uh cuz I wondered like okay how much of it is just me wanting it to be good so I have a client his C John Evans he's like a 320 pound powerlifter who's actually going to do a bodybuilding show I'm like okay D is huge he's 320 really lean like really tall you know a typical

powering stimulate junkey I'm like uh we'll try it with him if he notices something we'll know have something good we gave it to him and he texted like an hour He's like he's like dude what the [ __ ] was that a duck you got any more so no it's I'm feeling it yeah so it's pretty yeah so I'm excited about it we 're obviously just we we're just finalized uh R&D it the problem is it's like a harsh chemical so getting the flavor right was hard but we finally nailed the flavoring uh and we're

starting production run so hopefully 6 weeks we'll have product fantastic yeah you called ATP which is the usable form of Energy in the body so what would be the best way for people to get a hold of you um or to follow you cuz there's your website right so your link on your link tree which I when I was checking it out earlier I didn't know you could have the little switch to be They just added that I think yeah so I need to change yeah you go to my in well I used to be

able to say search Justin Harris but then some [ __ ] named Justin Harris murdered his whole Family and I think he's still number one on Google I might be I might I didn't murder my family but you just going to have to go up stage that so yeah I try and that's hopefully this does yeah that'll do it this is better than murdering your family but uh search Justin Harris or trapon nutrition if you go to trapon nutrition on Instagram my link tree everything's on there but typically if you Google Justin Harris Justin Harris

carb cycling Justin Harris Nutrition Justin Harris giant penis all of those will point you to my website we're only fans only fans all right well I want to thank you again for coming I hope enough people search that cuz if enough people search that it'll start showing up oh yeah that way it autofill to the point if you put in just Jay that's the thing that yeah okay any any final thoughts and we'll close this down no I mean it's my fifth time here I love it thank I mean every time I love it Here

I I brought my daughter here for the first time I was like you said because it's people who have never been here don't understand you walk in and it's an office building and you go into the bathroom and in the bathroom on the on the other end there's a door and you peek through that door boom it's like the greatest gym on Earth it's awesome it's like going through narn it is yeah through the ward you need to put a wardrobe yeah all right thank you and We're done all right guys thanks for watching the

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