confronting the ceo who’s mad about reddit defamation

Welcome back to the void we're getting a little petty today because a CEO asked me to investigate him after he accused uh Reddit of defaming him and so I looked into it I don't remove Reddit posts but I did think they had some points so the CEO says okay great well let's have an interview I say fine we planned it for Monday then on Monday they dodged me and they tried to get me to sign this uh insane legal agreement That would have prevented me from asking hard questions now as a result I openly talked

about this on um Reddit where here's the agreement right here they would have set the title they would have set what I could say about them and if I had done it and if I had signed it they I wouldn't have been able to talk about them or they're called plutus for three years after our interview and it had to all be positive or neutral like I Couldn't ask hard questions so of course the the interview was dead I was about to report on it when the next day the update is that they go okay

wait wait wait no actually we are going to do the interview but now you have to do it on our terms you have to come on our platform on X they're going to do an X space I thought this was stupid I wanted to do an a live stream on YouTube they said no uh we have to do it on next for some reason I got up there whatever I'll Just ask my questions and so here's kind of how that went last thing before we start I mentioned this example of their own PL rewards calculator

um I went to go check and make sure this is all right I put in a 50,000 plue stack just to be accurate I say it's half a million actually they're promising 215,000 PL um after year five I think I was calculating to year 10 or something so I just wanted to make that correction When I say half a million it's actually 200,000 um they're still promising to Forex your money or Forex your plue stack in 5 years but I had to be I wanted to be accurate about that before we get into this CU

that's a a thing we talk about a lot doesn't change the unsustainability of this but I did want to be accurate there okay here it is how do you plan to make this sustainable this is my number one question how is this not a Ponzi scheme given that you Offer such such outrageous returns if I love the energy and the kind of you know concern that you raised um if you had followed me for a while or heard my previous amas this is one of the issues we've been trying to fix for the last I

mean since the D which was announced in 2022 right at the end of that year U when we built the tokenized system back in 2015 it was designed to be built for a very restrictive model which was only up to 3% however as time Went on WE faced competition and as a result of that we adjusted our to economics and created these reward levels levels and due to lack of tangible um um utilities and you having Redemption access over time we were aware that that is creating UNS unsustainability so we we were very open about

this I mean it's not it's not been a secret and we've been I've been you know I've written of white paper recently to to be able to fix this issue Because our goal is to create a Timeless system and I'm aware I've even said this before um you know with one of our cons Consultants shown it you know the way the system has been working up to now I mean over the last years is built on Sand you know I I'm not shying away from that which is why we went through the whole vote asked

the community to support that which 67% people did and we're now building that system I mean we want to create a system which is Timeless and what we have at the moment is not but we want to do it in a way where we can still offer up to 9 or 10% and make it Timeless and how we do that we I mean if you're in St Tech I think you'll be really pleased to pleased to know that we've created a very unique system because we have the um historical data where we know what the

transactions have been on chain so with the new tokenomics that are coming we're building a system called Fuel and fuel Collects transactions from wallet transfers onl um um between wallet a and wallet B on chain and transactions on Dex so so from the data that we have historically we know that up to 10 years 100% of the C which is what you checked is 100% self self sustainable and up to 50% of the rewards are self-funded as well and then and one more thing with this with the uh e report recently uh they've given a

a value of $7.90 £790 as a token emission value um At at which point there will be no new tokens need to be minted so all the rewards that we ever issue no matter how much it is no up to the 10% that we've created in the model will be all 100% self-sustainable now you can say oh that that is a lie but you know we have data and we have regulated third parties providing that validation so great great so I want to I want to address two points so you say your original system was

built on sand that's why that's a Brave admission and that's why you built the new white paper but the new white paper is where you introduce some of the the higher rewards you didn't pull back you said it's unsustainable but rather than pull back and offer less you actually offered more which is part of what your rewards calculator says it says look how much more you're going to get in our new system which doesn't make sense if you're building for sustainability secondly the eny report Is the most absurd thing I've seen finally I got a

full copy of it so I took a look at it and what I saw was that eny made the ab absurd assumption that nobody would sell swap or otherwise use the token as it is meant to be used so yes is it sustainable if no one ever uses PL tokens yeah any any reward system you could offer infinite rewards and it would in theory be a sustainable model because there's no actual economic use so the problem is is that when you Actually ask people what do they want to do with a cash back card or

a Rewards Card well go figure they want to use it for rewards you cannot generate 10% return cash back returns and 10% CR based on what a $20 a month subscription it doesn't make sense it's unsustainable regardless of what a consultant with bad assumptions would say no I think I think you're going on the bandwagon here so you said a few things here forgot to take notes but I I think your rant is Basically based on misconceptions of what you're reading online so it's there 10% CI doesn't come from a subscription fee it comes from

something called fuel when person a transfers flu that they've earned from wallet a to wallet B on chain there's a tax um up to 5% is charged on that transaction and that transaction allows us to be able to issue rewards without being able to create new tokens so I mean you can argue that in any way But those are the facts that we've built I know that doesn't mean it's guaranteed but that's the financial model that we've created and kind of gone through it for over months and validated by you know regulated third parties and

now that you mention I'm not getting it from online I'm not getting it from online sources I'm reading directly from your sources so I am I am reading your papers I am reading what you have released I've seen The 5% tax but that does not justify a CR where I'm going to get 5x of 10% on year five because what doesn't make sense because you I've earned half a million PL how does that make sense okay you can say that because you make an assumption and you haven't gone through the financial model I mean if

you're willing to sign in an NDA I can give you access to no I've used your fin I've used your financial model you have a reward Calculator on your page yeah but that but that's not a financial model that's a calculator or shows what way you can earn as a financial model is something different if you've got any um economics experience you will know the financial model kind of highlight creates a model of what a system will look like at scale over the course of 10 20 30 years and so on right which is what

we've created and it's very technical and it's very in depth I would love to show it to you Daniel you're hiding behind this use common sense with me for a second no no you are hiding behind it you're hiding behind Consultants with bad assumptions and you're hiding behind a model that have to sign an NDA to see do you understand how that's kind of a little silly wait look again you're very presumptuous here like I think you're more you you're actually the way you approach St I'm sorry to say no offense I mean intended you

approach is more Troll than journalistic so I'm happy to answer your questions so if you want access to that you don't have to sign an NDA to look at the report right so fincial model is something personal which is not public for public view if you want access to that if you're that concern in genely concerned I would love to give you access to that right now but I don't think you're genuinely concerned it's more to sign wait you don't know much about us Or you never heard about plers up to about few days ago

but you're making all these kind of assumptions based on the information that you know based on your data based on your data I'm looking at your I'm looking at your all right look it seems like you're a very argumentative kind of person I'm not going to do that let me say clearly the data is different from the calculat calculat it shows what you earn so right but we've got data to back that as well Which we've kind of clarified through regulated third parties and audit it in our report but if anyone wants deep access to

it for some someone like you happy to do so which you can verify and then we can also have another AMA I mean for those who have known me we don't hide behind you know tough questions welcome that but what is not fair is making presumptuous accusation and so on without even having the all the facts clear so I'm happy that you actually Joined so I can kind of give you all the insights so maybe by the end of it you can publicly apologize for you know for the recent actions what I don't understand what

I would publicly apologize for what you guys have done is not answer the basic questions I'm asking which is let me repeat it let me just repeat it I let you talk so let me let me just get my point out my point out is if I use your calculator and I'm just A a pluge a guy using PL let me just analogize this to rewards because your closest similarity is like a credit card rewards program okay if I look at a credit card their business model makes sense what is their business model they they

give me about one to 3% cash back and they generate that revenue from some real economic activity what does that mean they have transaction fees of about 3% and then they charge interest as well on un on unpaid back balances and then They also have subscription fees okay when we look at plutus it is a debit card it doesn't have those High transaction fees it also doesn't charge interest high levels of interest on people's remaining balances the only thing you're similar in is you have a subscription model but you claim to be offering over three

times the rewards of these credit cards so what I'm when I'm looking at credit cards I understand their financial model I understand how They make money right I understand how the transactions can generate the kind of cash back they're doing when I look at your model which offers 10% in rewards back I'm looking at this and I'm going where is the real economic activity that is being generated to not make this a Ponzi scheme right to allow people to withdraw properly and it doesn't make sense it and you're saying oh you got to look at

this financial mod no no just explain it I can explain a Credit card model in 5 seconds explain your model model of how you make money back for this that doesn't include you just selling the same tokens you're giving to people I love the passion and great question um see what you bring with credit cards is different it's a credit card they earn their revenue based on the interest they charge and they give that back and recycle that back as a commission or as a cash back right our system isn't a cash back so if

You really understood it and compared to credit card and all the cash back you realize it is unique and a groundbreaking system that we've built why let me explain so it doesn't cost First it doesn't cost us anything to issue rewards we create these tokens um through erc20 or whatever the network we we will decide to go on to next so we created these tokens in order to and it belongs to us plutus so we use that to issue rewards to customers now we have To provide them with tangible use cases for them to use

those tokens within the app so now in the past we've kind of handled all the transaction fees and for it cost us up to 5 million I be honest so it wasn't very sustainable because in the past when we did that when you offer these high rates you know we ended up in a situation where it had to ended up costing us a lot of money and so we learned from that mistake and we decided to really build this in a proper way so This is which is why there's been no decks for over a

year we wanted to release that a lot earlier but we decided no it's not the right time because you know we have to do things right so let it be slow people will get upset but let's build the right thing so now we the way we make money is first we earn revenue from sub subscriptions which although there there's a lot of kind of you know discontent in the social media But numbers haven't changed we have had no churn you know so that guys kind of goes to show that nobody wants to kind of leave

the platform because it is amazing it is lucrative and one of a kind and we also have Visa transaction fees which is another way of earning money and then when it comes to perks so most of the perks don't cost us of not the perks the utilities that we offering doesn't really cost us it earns us Revenue because it allows stops to Happen and we have a margin on every stop with the provider for example air miles or gift card card providers can you explain how you make money from Perks I'd love to hear about

that not the perks I mean um I mean the utilities but some of the perks we do make money from how for example curve is one of our partners right so we have a Revenue sharing deal with them that is you know spans for multiple years and it goes up to six or seven figures um you know in a Year depending on volume so you know we have Partnerships like that that earns us Revenue so we don't depend on the token token has never been our business you know otherwise we would have had a lot

of tokens and we wouldn't be in a situation where you know I mean for example I mean you know very well so most of the people who are doing anything wrong with in within this industry go up really fast we've been here for the last 10 years and as Founders personally me and my co-founder we are broke why because the idea is to build something unique and be remembered in in Legacy you know do the right things which is why I was kind of reluctant in the end to come on your YouTube channel because the

team was concerned that you know you know nobody wants to be put in the same basket as Logan Paul and Andrew take man you know that's not good for reputations which is why I wanted to kind of speak to you First to kind of understand your approach cuz I do want to have constructive chat and answer all the tough questions but I also don't want to be you know put put myself or the company in a situation where you know the damages you know can't be fixed so I hope you understand that um anyway I'm

sure you have more questions yeah I do so you said um the tokens don't cost money but ultimately if you're promising people some kind of Economic value because there is ultimately a promise at the end of the day if these if people thought these tokens w weren't worth anything number one they wouldn't be in the program and number two you couldn't even calculate a rewards back you're calculating based on price so at the end of the day they actually do cost money you can kind of say oh we're minting tokens But ultimately there has to

be a value to these things you're in fact promising Value of these things with Miles different gift cards stuff like that so my question remains unanswered you said okay I have subscriptions great that's not going to cover it you say I have some Visa card fees that's fine but it doesn't cover it you yourself said you guys in the hole and the old system wasn't working but if you look at your new new system like I said it's not actually less promising less it's not actually a more sustainable system at All it's actually promising more

which puts you even more in a hole which brings us to The increased strict withdrawal limits and questions around that I think the question is if you guys weren't in deep trouble which I suspect you are why are you limiting withdrawals so heavily you can talk about abuse you can talk about this you can talk about that but the reality is what do people want to do with a cash back card or a rewards card they want to use it for Rewards that's it and if that kind of behavior is going to be labeled as

abusive that's obviously a big problem so I still haven't seen where the revenue is coming from you've you've said Okay a few things that maybe could get me to like one or two% cash back but as you know that doesn't equal this outrageous 10% that you're promising so I once again have to ask look you're limiting withdrawal if if you guys weren't limiting withdrawals if you guys Weren't doing stuff like that we wouldn't be having this conversation the reality is anytime someone who promises economic value and then limits withdrawals that's where you hear me get

brought up it's a tale as old as time okay well you're very passionate man like I respect that and and I appreciate this because I you know without you coming getting involved and kind of highlighting all the concerns that have usually been raised by um kind of Personal types that don't read through our content which is fine I am happy to answer that so limiting withdrawals we haven't really limited anybody's withdrawal as such the whole system is still operating as we've always done if you request a withdrawal at the moment I mean a payout request

of the Blue rewards that you've earned it's within 24 hours at this point right so if you look at the blockchain data there's pay hours going through daily which I've Sent to you in the PDF which I shared with you so the only limitation is on a very small number of users keep in mind around 800 or so users which are the real cause of the issue they're the ones who being restricted it's not everyone I mean we'll open the floor now to our customers I'm sure many will vouch for this you know the idea

is not to penalize or or kind of avoid that you know sign of being trouble I think that's just very presumptuous otherwise We wouldn't be here for 10 years going through three 3B markets right and still being self-funded and still creating Futures I mean the kind of achievements that we've had in comparison to companies who whove raised 10 times more you know I think it's all also evident so the part of limiting withdrawals is untrue that's still happening and when you when you say about how do we provide the the value the value comes from

the amount even in the 2015 white paper it Said there's an emission value comes from whatever the whatever the people demand um value the token as right so that's the intrinsic value of the token so intrinsic value of the token is very different from extrinsic value which is controlled by narrative and demand and as you see even though PL itself is one of the very unique tokens with a day-to-day use case is being affected by narrative so that you know controls the extrinsic value so for me you know you Can have claim anything but we

know that how the system is built a it doesn't cost us to create the tokens B we earn a revenue from issuing rewards through our utility redemptions right so this is not a a bold claim but you can you know you cannot understand that and try to accuse me of whatever you want for views but you know it' be worth for you to no I'm no I'm not trying to accuse you for views I'm genuinely not understanding how you're earning revenue From Redeeming the utility of people's Cash Back Rewards it's like an Airline rewards card

saying we earn money when we pay out rewards great question I cool I got it so for example with air miles we get it for a certain value and then we offer it to customers for a certain Redemption value and the plue that we will get from that we would give that to a liquidity provider with a very low premium because it doesn't cost us anything for the service and then we Whatever is left from that that's a revenue that we've made as part it goes into our Treasury and that you know let let's let's

use the tangible value because because we're kind of like abstract right now so let's say let's say I have I have one PL token how how many pounds is that worth for an airline Redemption I think you said 10 pounds right um one one PL is pound worth of value yes so okay okay great so let so let's use that example right so one PL Equals 10 pounds currently I can buy and we'll just stick with this very concrete example and if you can answer it I will be very impressed one PL token equals 10

10 pounds of redemption but I can buy it on the open market for like 130 or 1 80 right now so let's say I buy 50,00 PL tokens let's say total 100,000 all in as I said according to your rewards calculator in 5 years that would be now 588,000 PL that's according to your website I'm using all of your numbers so I have turned so now let's see how much it would cost for you guys to cash that out so how much do you redeem Airline rewards for so it you're saying it's worth1 pound but

how much does it cost you well I'm very happy that you put your credibility in the line and going up this I mean on this Goose CH but let me explain the no no give me a value though give me a let's just complete the analogy real quick because it's important what what how much does it Cost you guys because probably not 10 pounds right no it's lower but I would explain if you once you've done with your question well I need okay I'm just gonna assume let's just assume for a second that it it

costs you a fifth of the amount which I think is too low but that's fine so from inputting 100 ,000 100,000 pounds into the system I have earned $1 million in reward tokens that have it's cost you a million Dollars in order to redeem that that doesn't make sense it does not pass the sniff test does that make sense to you does that make sense where where where I'm coming from it's a very simple example makes sense and I appreciate your concern but let me explain after which is the part that you missed early on

as I said you know the way it's going to be built we you first first of all you cannot use tokens that you've got externally you cannot go to like for Example third party exchange or whatever buy a bunch of clue and come and redeem it on on the platform especially with their utilities because it was only designed for rewards earned within the app and even the rewards that you earn within the app let's say you're you know on a 10% level and you earn 10,000 over the course of the year or two years even

then there will be limitations only in terms of deification for example you cannot just go and you know convert get 10,000 ounds worth of gift verges in one go we won't allow that so there will be of um progression Progressive fee structure in place to to make sure that you know the whole system remains sustainable while also being fair to customers to be able to redeem for normal use right so normal use will be cost effective but if you're trying to gain the system like what you're trying to inserate that won't be able to you

won't be able to do that because it will Be just too costly for you to do that and if you did do that we benefit from that so wa wait wa wait hold hold on I'm a little confused as to how you're Ben benefiting from it and I'm also confused as to how somebody buying tokens staking them for five years and then wanting their money out of the system is gamifying the system I mean I I would assume that the the rewards are meant to be used in the end of the day right so why

would you offer rewards that would Produce in 5 years of holding a quote gamified thing is that how is that gamified I I don't know what you're saying because what you just mentioned has nothing to do with how we work I mean first of all we don't offer staking staking is something very centralized we are done custodial so you me if you do if no no stack stacking is what you guys call it I mean I misspoke stacking okay yes sorry sorry to interrupt guys can you please let each other talk not Follow not fall

into each other's words would be really appreciated and C the way I appreciate you is a little bit more calm a calm conversational talk would be really appreciated thank you very much okay well I came here to speak passionately the way uh I think a lot of people have been wanting someone to talk to Daniel not the way that you know a Ambassador or a moderator wants to speak right I'm asking hard questions Daniel Knew that I was going to be asking hard questions I think this is what he was expecting uh go ahead Daniel

I I I welcome that and to be honest I mean you're you're the right person to have this conversation with because you know I don't think anyone's ever volunteered to come and speak to you like the way I have and there's a reason for that because when you know when you haven't done anything wrong and you trying to do the right things there's no questions That you can be worried about right so my concern was only that you know we presented in a fair way and this is why I you know wanted to kind of

hold this over X but man like carry on please um what was your last question again ah so my so my question again Ju Ju Just to just to finish the example um by the way the the the calculation I was assuming with like the it cost you guys a million dollars that does not include the initial PL so your whole point is Well taken about okay we're not going to let you use your initial that doesn't matter that's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about just rewards in five years me putting $100,000 into

your system is going to give me a million dollars with zero spending on my part that is with y'all's cost if we actually calculate the actual value of of the airlines putting a $100,000 in would actually give me $5 million of airline reward cards in 5 years that does not Pass the sniff test that's what I'm telling you guys and that is not some gamified thing that's not some crazy scenario those are the rewards that you guys have on your white paper with your calculator it doesn't make sense okay look you're not wrong with your

concern because I understand where you're coming from right so I've been talking against um all the apys offered by from tether and binance all the block fine all that kind of stuff for many years from since 2018 was my first kind of post rais about tether right so which is where how I heard about you the first time um in your 2021 post about tether so how they offer their C apy is always built on free money minted by Paulo and send over to exchanges or block five whoever the partners were I mean that's not

a conspiracy anymore it's now public knowledge we want we understand that apy the whole system feature is very lucrative but it has to be done in the Right way so this is why we work through the white paper and build a system called fuel now I know it's very hard to kind of fathom that oh these numbers are very high will there be enough volume but yes I mean the online onchain transactions over the last two years were over 350 million 5% of that is substantial enough rewards to be able to sustain what we currently

emit for a year or two years now I'm not making that up I I'm only saying this out of Confidence because of the data that we've built again I can only say that I can give you access to kind of make you if you really are genuinely concerned I can really guide you through it and I mean we can even do this publicly I mean I can go through the compliance but you know yeah I'm with you on this concern I understand where you're coming from is the what what you trying to inate is exactly

what we try not create and build And you know if Bec a situation where our um predictions or you know were kind of too high that we could have collect enough fuel to sustain that um amount of emissions we will adjust but we will adjust we've always adjusted with up to nosis three months six months over a year up front I mean we went through a a I mean we are for-profit we don't have but we act more like a dow we just recently went through a whole voicing and a mpal community aage we don't

have To do that but we did because why we want to continue building a relationship with our customers but it doesn't mean you know the reason we even here this point because what you don't understand it's multiple past concessions that we've made which is why you know it's created that um entitled mentality which is now what we trying to fix I mean look it's I have responsibility to protect our customers who've been with us for a long time and who've kind of suffered From What's happen over the last year and my team's hard work I

mean most of the team members we have today have been with us for five or six years I mean there's a reason for that uh you know so I'm actually very glad that you've kind of you know giving us exposure because you know we don't have that kind of marketing budget or we don't we not on the same kind of uh we don't go to influencers and pay thousands of dollars To get promotion promoted right so if we ever had influencers work with us in the past it was more to do with because they were

part of our customer base as well um okay I I I really really quickly want to address um I I can't help myself at the end there you said you guys don't pay influencers I talked to a former employee who said he was on the team that was paying influencers so I I don't know about that but I do I I really quickly want to address something which Is the fuel the fuel thing real quick um and then I'll let and then I'll let you respond so so you said okay oh this is self-funded through

fuel I know it's kind of crazy apy but it's all self-funded through fuel using historical data with this 5% tax my problem with that is y'all have implemented new features that are going to make onchain transactions a lot less likely what I mean by that is you guys are severely limiting or penalizing People who withdraw to different ex uh to to two external wallets to sell so that in previous uh times the reason you saw High historical data for why people are moving onchain transactions is number one there wasn't attack and number two they could

do that to then sell their tokens now that you've limited that relying on the same historical data doesn't make any since because you've actually said okay no no no don't do that anymore guys use our Internal swap which isn't going to create any fuel right you're going to have fees and stuff like that but it's not actually going to like create this fuel you're talking about so that actually doesn't make sense because if you had used the same assumptions and you hadn't changed anything I sure I could get on board like you could apply some

5% tax based on some historic things but number one the tax itself will change people user behavior and Number two you have changed the rules to change you uh user Behavior so again back to my question the 10% CR does not make sense it's not sustainable the eny report in makes the assumption that people can't swap or sell that doesn't make sense I look if you guys seriously think that this is sustainable it see me as the bearer of bad news it's not you're headed for trouble and you need need to slash these rewards if

you're going to get to anything close to Sustainable I mean it doesn't make sense credit cards only offer 1 to three % how could it possibly be true that you guys charging way less money are able to give people 10% I mean that's the amazing part of what we've created right so that's I said earlier once we get kind of get to understand let me kind of explain and you you I mean once you become a part of P customer one day which when we do come to us and you will you will get to

Understand why it is unique the way what we've built as I said earlier up to now we've had issues and I have been the one kind of highlighting highlighting that more than anyone else because I care about the system and I want Timeless system build so the first thing you mentioned let me go one point by Point uh influences as I said the the only few influences you would find are the ones that are part of our custom customer base and have reached out to us in order To kind of work with us and we've

kind of included them in our ambassador program and that's how we've operated we haven't gone Mass Market to ambassadors or influencers in the past we have we not we don't it's not part of our um you know um how we operate and external I mean if if it comes to a point where all the external volume is lower I mean that's a good thing because external volume is lower means more engagement is in app and if external Volume is lower we don't want customers to take the coins out out rewards out of the system and

go to third party platform we'd rather have them shop for card topups within the app which is what we have built currently for web 2 customers and the next version will be decks so the Decks that we building um in 2025 if you read the white paper you will know that it's designed for our web three users which most the customers that you you're highlighting the Advanced users who want low fees and they want easy access to they want to swap their rewards into you know tangible value they will be allowed to do that within

the app and so we not they don't really lose anything by not going to going you know leaving the platform we we created the reward system so we can decide what your rewards can be used for right so again it's not a cash back system it's not cash it's a tokenized loyalty reward System similar to FIFA Coin or um MX Aires or any of the other other reward systems right so this is what we have to differentiate so we want to ask users to use the system for how is meant to be used and how

it has been promoted so you know cash is what it's not so the perception that people say oh I've earned that and it's my it's m I have to go and you know do whatever the hell I want with it you know that's not true I mean we've created the system to be Designed to be used within the app and we building that um over the past year we haven't had that I am I agree with it I mean it's something that I've acknowledged many times and we did make a promise for it to be

released much earlier but it was delayed I mean we are a small funded you know startup things change and we didn't hide behind that I came on publicly and said look we have to do a transition and we can't release the decks but you know it doesn't mean That we will never do it because we are making progress right so it's good times ahead so I I just want to address one thing you said okay we're not a cash back card we're a tokenized loyalty reward program but at the end of the day you have

to agree that your token has to be at some point pinned to a purchase value because in order for you to give the equivalent of a rewards cash back but in your to in your native token you have to be relying on some external Value so if like people pay in pounds you have to convert that to you have to basically pin a price to PL that would generate the number of tokens you're talking about so when we talk about like oh it's not cash back it kind of is connected to cash back actually and

that is substantially what you're promising so I just want to make sure that that switch is clear look look Stephan you're you're not wrong I mean there's a there's a thing with tech technicalities There right so there there's a value to the Token the value is determined by external value of what customers you know deem what the value of the token is which is what the emission value is um based on right so this is how we base whatever the values externally or what are the value is what people consider to be is how we

is what they you know the ratio is how we emit the tokens to customers and you know but it doesn't change anything I mean We I mean well it does mean that you're ultimately giving people dollars and that has to be a sustainable thing because ultimately what you're promising is not some valueless token it's some token Peg to some economic thing and so you have to be generating Revenue to make that sustainable even when you were talking about like oh it doesn't matter if we have less external transactions well actually yes it does because it

Would mean you'd have less 5% taxes which would make your CR less sustainable but it also means that these card topups you're talking about giving people real pound value right that is actually what you're promising is real economic value and at some point in the chain you have to generate at least that much to make it sustainable so my concern is I see this company heading for the iceberg with these rewards and I see a lot of customers that are just Gruntled and I'm coming to and I'm just asking basic questions about where's the money

coming from how is this working and at least to me these are not satisfying answers that I'm getting because ultimately there's no clear expl explanation as to where the generative value is that would make your system sustainable for all the people who are withdrawing value from your system so again I mean I love the passion and the fact that you kind of been really Concerned about this but I would like to highlight that we don't do it from our own pocket I mean when we do provide the de the swaps we provide that for a

third party liquidity provider who we work with so we have to go through certain steps so we don't actually end up having to lose anything on that front right so because why the liquidity providers ask for that uh why they have a demand for that uh token because there's a lot of PE already out there in circulation and Because we've created a day-to-day I mean a a token that can actually be used on a day-to-day service unlike anything else out there even bit including Bitcoin has which has no utility so please is one of the

only tokens out there which in fact does have a utility not only with inapp features but also with tangible benefits so because of that demand that they you know they're willing to provide us that service which we have to pay a Premium for and we pass that on to customers you know in the past we took that on and which was not sustainable sustainable you're right which is why we turn that you know um closed down decks because we it it cost us and everyone knows this so we wanted to build a system where it

doesn't cost us which is what we have now and hence why the fees are so huge to 50% it won't be the case if if there was such a huge volatility if there was no volatility at the moment Right because the third party providers who give us a service their premium would be much lower and the same thing goes for utilities so uh you know for example Aires you know there's no cost to us in terms of how much we get it for and what we sell up what we will sell it for we everything

that we've created in terms of utility we we will always have a profit margin on each swap maybe maybe we break even on the first initial swop Just to make it fair for the customer and make it usable but we won't build anything in a way where we end up losing why because our goal is not to be self-funded forever we are going into VC rounds and we speaking to tier one venture capitalist to be able to kind of achieve that way to be able to achieve that we need to have a sustainable system built

which is why we went through the whole ey um you know modeling and everything because it's not Just for customers it for it has a much bigger objective so uh and the ey concern I mean you're not wrong with with that with their assumptions right and this is something they they even highlighted in their own um in their own report and I've even said that in our previous amas and in the fqs they made conservative assumptions based because they wanted to kind of simplify the model and they have said we still continue to Working with

them and there will be a second version of the model and a third version will be released in due course I can promise that because we are continue to work I mean the IDE that wasn't the that was the initial first version and we know that there will be still improvements need to be made and they've said that in the report you've read it right so the Improvement carries on nothing's changed well okay there are a couple things there I I just really Quickly want to highlight for those who don't know the ey report is

an urg young report which says oh this token's sustainable but we made the assumption that no one's going to swap it send it or otherwise sell it so that so any model would be sustainable if you assume that nobody actually uses the tokens for what they're intended for but I really quickly want to highlight I I'm worried we're going into like magic internet money thinking where we can imagine a World where you're giving people airline miles which everyone agrees has a value and that's not costing you money that's not costing the customer money so where's

the money coming from this is an economically valuable thing that you're telling me isn't costing you money it's definitely not costing the customer money so there's I'm not seeing where in the chain this is coming from I I just explained to you how 50,000 PL now gives me 5 million Airline um dollars in Airline miles in five years you're telling me that's not going to cost you a dollar how is that possible great question we as I said all the pl R redemptions that we get we we would have a liquidity provider who we have

a agreement with who would who would provide that all the redemptions that we've earned to that um our providers in order to give us the revenue um the liquidity that we need in order to kind of keep paying for the Services and ensure that the customers get their um utility I mean this is how we I mean I think this is pretty genius but who who's paying the the bill at the end of the day who's footing the bill the customer's not you're saying you're not so who's paying for my $5 million in Airlines wait

wait we we pay the bill for the service fee there's a basic admin fee of course we we to have to cover that but we don't it doesn't cost the redemptions in itself doesn't affect Sustainability because when somebody redeems plut tokens on the app we would receive that PL and we would give it to a liquidity liquidity provider for a fixed amount agreeable amount that we we have uh and then we would use that to pay for our services and there's always a margin of profit for in that because when we buy everything in bulk

for example when we have a contract with Miles and more you know we we are one of the brand Partners so if if the Redemption value for let's say for example one air mile is um you know $1 we would get that for almost less than 50% of the of the value of the Redemption value so we have enough margin to kind of play around and what we want to do with it the same thing goes for um um the gift cards I mean you know A10 pound Amazon gift card for example cost us around

£6 you know you're getting $10 it's not really Wait wait you're you're getting $10 Amazon gift cards for $6 but it's still costing you $6 so where does that economic value come from you just told me you sell the tokens I KN I knew I understand where you're going with this again as I said you cannot just go onto an exchange whatever buy tens of thousands are worth of blue token and comes to the platform and redeem it for that because of course that's not sustainable right that's not how we're Going to build it so

it's for regular use so if you're on the platform so if the token value externally what we get for is lower than what the Redemption value is for example if it I mean if the token value is $2 and the Redemption it cost us $6 for that you know we we will there will be a fee structure there to prevent gamification and make sure that we never ends up losing you know so even with the fee Structure we'll make sure that everything's you know fair for the customer and it's worth their while to be able

to use the service and maybe in the early stages in the V1 it won't be as cost effective but you know we've had a lot of issues we fixing it right so we still here so idea is to continue improving it might not happen overnight but those who have been here for many years they can see that you know we are resilient you know we accept our Mistakes and we keep improving which is why I kind of appreciate that you wanted to kind of come on and you know and give us more exposure so so

I think I got to a an important Point here which is that the way you're actually paying for these things is by selling the tokens that you are given you are selling the tokens for economic value then it comes and begs the question as you pay out more of these rewards more things are getting sold you need to then sell those tokens For that economic value the price is going to crash and the price is going to continue to crash because if you're relying on the token itself for generating all this stuff it's not going

to sustain it yeah but that's the thing like you have um um like see similar in a way where we sent you CLA right so we act we are very cautious with how we do things so even with the partners we know that you know there's certain terms in order to protect how they would engage Within the ecosystem right so it's it's kind of benefits everyone so we have those kind of security measures in place I don't know if I mean I don't want to say something that where gets my compliance team annoyed but but

to be transparent there's certain um Clauses are in there to kind of make sure that what you insinuating doesn't happen that the price doesn't fall well like like what what do what do you mean oh oh that people don't withdraw a lot Of PL tokens see for us it's better that to kind of engage if we have to kind of get a value liquid liquidity for PL that we've kind of earned through redemptions if we have to get a real value for that it's better for us to work with third party liquidity providers who we

have Clauses with where they cannot uh hurt the ecosystem or behave in a way which um kind of creates speculative or kind of volatility that kind of impacts everyone so we have those Clauses in Place so whoever we work with it it is done in a way where it protects everyone I mean are you saying they're not selling on actual exchanges they're it's like an OTC deal yeah yeah okay so they're just but but then if you do that they're going to charge you a huge fee in order to cover their risk side well that's

why there's exactly why the pl of softes are so high and we we trying to fix that right so I Mean I I'm the one keep getting blamed for it but it's like I'm the one who's actually trying fix that because once we get the uh once we get everyone to kind of follow the terms and kind of understand what we buil and appreciate it this whole fees system will change you know the fees will be as low as one or 2% which is the goal because we want this to scale right we haven't built

this to kind of uh stop users from using it I mean the the reason the web two Version of the Pluto stop is for for the mouses it's not for you and I who understand web 3 it's for our parents and grandmothers who are just getting used to emojis that's why it we've made it so easy but with the 50% fees we can't get to our goal and I know that more than anyone else and to get those fees lowered we need to create a better Trend within the app and you know everyone align with

the same goals I mean the kind of customers that who've Got your attention and highlighting this you know it's my message to them is you know we're not going to get anywhere if we continue to behave in such a way we haven't been you know we haven't really done anything wrong here we can we want to continue providing this service all we ask us for try the new features that we've created right so try it you don't like it you don't have to stay with us the service is optional but it doesn't justify you know

organizing mobs to go And leave negative reviews all that kind of stuff which is what I mean there's a lot of people's hard work involved there I mean just for you know few dollars worth of perks or you know a payout I I think it's kind of morally very wrong to go in the aggression that some of the people have however that doesn't matter we still want to retain them and I hope we can kind of change everything yeah I mean I would I would say arguing with with customers who are Trying to use your

service as described is is never going to be a winning strategy anytime a CEO finds himself at the TA at the tail end of a bunch of negative feedback from their customers kicking back against those customers is sort of the worst idea the reality is if you find customer Behavior based on your system objection objectionable rather than penalizing those users or getting frustrated with those users you should rather change the system so that that Kind of behavior is no longer possible so for example if you're offering 10% returns and then I give you a for

instance of using your exact terms your exact calculator and you tell me oh that would be abusive that shouldn't be possible that doesn't even make sense you should not be able to engage with your app in a way that you would see as objectionable right and of course I'm caveat like money launderers or something like that I'm just saying People I just gave you a for instance of someone buying tokens stacking their plue or whatever and getting $5 million in rewards and you're telling me Oh we would find a way to prevent you from doing

that or tack on a bunch of fees or whatever whatever just lower the redemptions just lower the rewards it doesn't make sense offering 10% it's exists nowhere else in the industry there's no one else who sustainably offered these kinds of rewards and that Is for a reason you haven't in reinvented money you haven't changed change the whole system you need to get in line with what is actually possible and then just see who will stick around and maybe at that point you can ease up on withdrawals you'll find less people are what you term as

abusive because these are rewards that are realistic and you can actually pay out instead of fairy tale land where we have 10% CR and 10% rewards it doesn't make sense it Doesn't pass the sniff test I'm sorry to tell you yeah well thank you for your opinion um however let me explain something 10% C is not everyone so in the past what's happened is why we've actually ended up in this situation pretty much anyone could come on the platform and get to 7 8 9% it was very easy and very lucrative and as a result

of that we created a free candy problem which was kind of very hard to get out of and this is why we here right I think I've shared that in the PDF um with you with resources of kind of dat and explaining that but you know again that's one of those things because I know you haven't had a chance to go through everything and you're just reading off stuff and you're thinking oh [ __ ] you know you know I've seen that with block fire and all these other Celsius and whatnot it's not sustainable and

I agree and if you knew me very well from how some of our other customers Know it's exactly what I've been talking about for many years and uh you know the the aim is to build something unique and lucrative but while it being completely self-sustainable if we don't have the model completely perfect yet I agree you know even ey have said that in their report we've said that in our ifqs but we are going to continue improving and from those who know about us they know that we are very Community Focus and we will continue

doing that because you Know I I you know people get called out and you know I love facing the community in that way so you can you know I love the passion for again the concern you're raising but if you really are genuinely concerned then let's try to go through together to all the bits and understand how the product works well i' I've seen your eny report I've used your company's own calculator I've looked at your white paper extensively and what I'm telling you is What anyone would tell you which is that if you want

sustainable and you want lucrative you're going to have a bad time you have to pick one you have to pick a A system that you generate enough actual economic value to pay out the returns right now I'm sorry to tell you I know you don't want to hear it you you guys are offering way too much money the system doesn't make sense and you're headed towards a crash with or without me you may think it's the fault of your Haters and the your customers and everybody else that's doing this to you no it is your

system which is not sustainable and if you continue down this route it's going to collapse and it's not going to be my fault it's not going to be your customer's fault you guys are going to fail and I'm going to be the one to tell you that right now not wrong you're absolutely not wrong and I've kind of been saying that for over the last year while working on the White paper while making all the updates like the system currently as the way it was and have been running for the last one year or two

it's not ideal because we did try to compete with um you know with the likes of CDC and so on even though their system was built on you know they can print whatever they like and issue to customers we try to compete with with our 2015 toomics which was only limited up to 3% and as a result of it I acknowledged that that Was kind of a mistake because it's although it created a huge demand in the beginning you know it did get to us the point where it's created unsustainable and I've acknowledged that and

this is why I've been working hard for the last year in order to fix that now I'm not claiming that the model is 100% perfect I've never done so but it does need to be continued improving but one thing I do want to clarify that we don't we're not giving value here out of thin air There's a system built which allows customers to earn something that we that we that we own and created and issu it to them as a reward and then they can redeem it within the app for certain features the Redemption will

have a fee included so it make sure that we don't end up losing as a business because in the past we have so now it's all about kind of increasing the revenue which is what we need in order to get to our you know VC rounds uh and to be honest this Conversation actually really helps because anyone who will listen into this chat they will understand that that what we try to do here is to build something really valuable and I mean and I'm refuting your concerns cuz they are valid right so otherwise I mean

based on the similar feedback is why we've created why we've why we built the White paper in the first place now as I said if you if you have doubts and suggest improvements you cons you're really Concerned then happy to include you into our kind of working group and make suggestions but I would appreciate that you know less of the accusations please you know well I I'm I am trying to provide uh suggestions right here right now which is to lower your rewards it doesn't make sense you said you're going to make up some of

it with fees so let me ask you a a new question which is that let you're saying on your app okay Let's say I have 50,000 PL stacked them in the highest tier I'm making 10% rewards cash back or reward back whatever you want to call it so let's say I spend $10,000 I get ,000 worth of PL back okay or pounds how much of that is go like after the tax is after all of that how much actual value am I going to realize cuz you're saying like no no no no we're not actually

giving that because we're going to have All these fees all these things that makes this sustainable so what I'm trying to ask you is after everything is included after everything's said and done how much is my 10% rewards back actually back in percentage wise is it 5% is it 7% is it 3% what is the actual reward back after the fees I think you're muted yeah so I think what you mean is by once you've earned the rewards when you go to redeem it how if you earn 10% What it will cost uh what will

you end up having still 10% or less well I can't guarantee that and we never have because the system has been built in a way where it doesn't guarantee um a fixed extrinsic value but with the tangible utilities that we created for example the uh the air miles and gift cards we do have a fixed in intrinsic value so for example one PL will be able to be able to convert it for10 pound worth of gift Cards right um but there's there will be limits to it in sense that um there will be fees increasing

as the more you kind of increase your volume so we protect ourselves from being gamified so I mean so what so what is my ,000 in rewards turns into when I finally cash it out so I so I earned $1,000 of PL rewards what is it actually going to be when I cash it out well it depends on the utility you're using for example with aars when you earn those you can sometimes use a Th000 or 10,000 miles for a business class flight or sometimes it's it's you know the same value is worth something else

on a different feature it just depends same way we have to you know we decide all based on the economic principles what what works best for the system and everyone else so each you know each system will have his of different values attached to it but at the moment if you see let's talk about a top up let's say I'm going to just add Dollars or Pounds to my account because at the moment if you've seen the white paper the the tangible value that we do have attached that be they you be able to swap

your for example one blue for is up to 10 pound worth of Air Miles GI gift cards and up to 150 pounds worth of um um discounts on air miles so that's the intrinsic value that we are trying to build I again I I think um my my question maybe I I'll try to reward it a Certain way which which is this what amount of air miles do I have to redeem before it's deemed as abusive by you guys um or gamifying I mean look I don't have the details exactly on that because the features

and been all the rules haven't be fully scoped out I how about a swap how about a swap yeah but but the swap there's no limits I mean you can swap you can swap Pro for C top top offs as much as you like there's no limits at The moment but there is a fee included uh with it'll be the same kind of similar structure with Miles and gift cards because as I said earlier if I include a if you include a limit on how much you can swap it it loses it's intrinsic value that's

how it works so for intrinsic value to be valid it needs to have depth of conversion so we want to provide users with depth so you can convert you can earn swap your plid into as many miles as you want but the more Mods you convert the higher the fs will get the fees will get to make sure that you know you've done it you know it's fair for but there's no limit on the swap is what you're telling me yeah yeah of course not okay well again and I you're going to hate this because

I'm going to go back to my old example and maybe we'll just close on this which is this if you take a very simple example where I buy $50,000 PL for $100,000 okay I'm not going to use these in the Rewards according to your calculator by the end of it I'm going to have half a million PL generated from your CR right so I have 500 half a million PL in rewards I go to your Swap and I exchange that for the same for let's just assume for the sake of argument ples at the same

price at the end of five years which it won't be but let's just make that assumption and you take 50% I put in a $100,000 into your system I'm getting out half a million that is Unsustainable that does not make sense wait wait I I mean look at the moment I don't understand what calculations you're looking at so I'm looking at your calculator you put wait we want an xama you're just throwing out numbers and it's like but look whatever you can go on your website and see it okay okay fine but look everything you've

kind of raised has an answer to it so whatever you're saying right now can be answered as well but The mathematics that you're looking at there's a reason for why that has been provided in that way because it's based on financial model now again there's no guaranteed of that that value will always be sustained in that way we haven't promised that you know that's never been part of our [ __ ] promotion and to to Hell the fact that everyone's be kind of insinuating that is what kind of irritates us because you know there's a

responsibility for us to Protect everyone especially the customers who have been supporting us so when you know when someone like um like yourself who's making these you know assumptions especially when on an online Forum like you have the exposure right it's kind of harmful because you have to first remain factual so what you're saying is incorrect where do you think I have not been factual can you tell me well you're trying to assume that you know earning certain amount of PL that can you know trying to insulate that that PL will continue to hold value

which is not what we've promised you said no I think it's going to collapse in value to be clear I'm trying to prove that to you yes so we've said that that value is what the emission this is the amount of clue that you will earn as a result of stacking for example for one or two 3 five years but that plue is not guaranteed to have a certain value however what we do guarantee which I Have done in the white paper that plue that you earn will be tangible in term for example any PL

any amount of PL that you have within the app let's say you have 100,000 PL and then you want to swop that for utilities that we offer and the in the initial stages this what we offer will be very low you of course you cannot go and swop you know $100,000 worth of plue that you've earned into air mes because we have to to scale up slowly so but what we have will have That we promis in the white paper A10 tangible value for each one PL and that can only be proven once we've achieved

that right so we can you can sit and argue and you know claim all the things that you want based on like you know not understanding Etc but you know it doesn't change the facts wait you're wait wait you're saying that I am G giving wrong information you haven't said what wrong information I'm using your numbers and I Did that intentionally because I wanted to have you you face your promises which is ultimately what I think is unsustainable I don't think your promises are sustainable so you're telling me Oh well who even promised that the

the value of PLU would stay the same well actually in you like just like you said you are actually promising that there's some redeemable value of this PL at the end of the day so whether we want to use swaps which I I just kind of ran You through those numbers or you want to use airline miles where we talked about getting $5 million worth of airline miles at the end of five years which doesn't make sense you say there's increasing fees but you haven't given me what those fees are so so what I'm trying

to say is you guys are headed for a nightmare you're headed for trouble I'm not your problem your problem is your white paper your new tokenomics and your Plan you're definitely not the problem you're I mean you're you're just somebody who has kind of helping us get the exposure and I'm very happy of of from you know from the from the time you've taken to give us the interest that you have but um I mean again you everything that you've said now is very presumptuous you're not saying anything valid the system that we've built again

the calculator that you see doesn't promise you any kind of redemption value It it shows you what from making an action a this is what you will earn as a result of it right so when you earn those rewards in the app also those C there's a there's a there's um certain terms for example you cannot just earn in um kind of you know be speculative on the daily basis it has certain stacking period like for example a 12- Monon Clause built in so what that does it creates a a system where everyone's aligned towards

a long-term value Earning long-term value instead of thinking okay I need to go to the third party for payoffs so that is what we trying to achieve so when that happens even if it's a small amount of numbers of users who are doing that or um a larger user base either way it benefits everyone so and in terms of what the value of tangible value will be we have promised that it will be 1010 pound for one gift one blue versus one gift card you cannot buy PL from exchanges and Come on the platform and

abuser system for gift cards of course that won't be sustainable and I agree with your concern and we know we haven't offer that only the plue that you earn in app so now if it comes to a point where you have 100,000 Plus worth of glue I mean although we will not have limits but there will be fees that won't make it very profitable for you to be able to stop that and and if you did we will earn from that and you won't hurt the System so either way you know we will we will

win or we will protect the ecosystem however it's not a guarantee the value has never been a guarantee of what the extrinsic value will be what what I've always as I said explained what how the system will work what our intent are and things can change but the Redemption value of what we've offered what the goal is will remain the same yeah you you say that you don't promise an in uh extrinsic value but you Actually are promising an intrinsic value so you're at the end of the day you are promising to redeem these tokens

at a certain value absolutely yes 100% that doesn't that doesn't make sense that how does it not make sense I mean I mean if you go if if you when you earn AAS they offer you a value even though they do it on based on different business model where they earn a cash earn a profit from you know the percentage they earn but they still Offer that value to you within the app we are offering it within the app we don't guarantee outside external we this is why we encourage encourage everyone to stay within the

app and users who haven't done so over the last year or so I mean we know majority haven't done so but we haven't penalized everyone because we can look at the data and look at customer Behavior right so is this normal use or by mistakes or so on but we can also see there's a small group of Users who are you know it's the whole minification of mindset you know everyone's here for the quick win and move on you know not us we're not going to allow that and we reserve the right to do so

so you know people could go and a ride as much as they want and try to go on the Witch Hunt but hey man like we're not phased by that otherwise we won't be here having this conversation yeah nobody's trying to go on a Witch Hunt we're we're just trying To get to the bottom of what what you guys are promising you guys are promising too much and then when people try to take you up on it you know it gets to be difficult and withdrawals are hard to get you know some people are labeled

abusive and and and things like that I mean look the reason the reason your your analogy about airline miles are are not correct is an airline mile is um related to the actual value of the dollar right whereas what you guys are Offering cash back on is based on the value of PL token which fluctuates and then you're guaranteeing to deem it at a certain value this is a disaster let me tell you why so let's say the value of a PL on an an exchange is a dollar right so that means that if I

earn $10 worth of reward backs you have to give me 10 PL but then so I've only earned $10 worth of reward backs so to speak but then I can go back to you and I go okay give me a 100 pounds worth Of airline miles for this $10 of of PL this 10 PL that doesn't make sense you're arbitraging against yourself well I think what you don't understand there's something called the network effect right so if we have if we are able to provide a real tangible value for Serv service a guarantee which is

what we're doing it if the extremes value becomes like you know nobody nobody will care about that anymore and because that's always going to be linked To what we do as a where you get as a product as a as a service for example the reason we can buy air miles from um from our partners is because we know it has a intrinsic value and we need to redeem it for sudden sudden um um you know benefits for example to get merchandise it's up to 50 cents or slightly higher to get a first class um

you know um first class ticket is is I think it's about 18 cents or 20 cents or so Something around that kind of um Range so they have different variations of um EXT extrinsic value that they offer but that's part of the whole system and promotion model that they built so that's them taking that as a cost for us we we don't have to take cost for providing certain services for example we don't have to build something in unique like AAR or you know different structure we can just connect third party services and provide customers

With commonly commonly used services that people love and use and which is what we've done I know you're on this kind of mindset of um investigative journalism which is I totally appreciate and I think it's really good um you know I think by the end of it I believe that we'll end up coming out coming out stronger so but at the same time we have to keep in consideration that um you know If let's don't make presum assumptions based without even knowing the facts fully I know you said that you've gone through everything but you

know you've only known about us in in 48 hours or so so I believe that's not enough time to understand everything that we have been doing over the last 10 years I didn't say I understand everything you've been doing in the last 10 years I'm saying I've looked over your tokenomics I've looked over the ey Report I've looked over how these economics are supposed to be working you know I find it ironic you said you enjoyed my uh tether report and you said you you know you think tether's up to something sketchy which as we

all know what they're doing is trying to Peg a digital C uh currency to some actual asset and there's questions of well do they have the backing for that well what you just told me is that when you do this a token thing the price is just Going to be $10 cuz that's what you're redeeming it for so you're as you're basically saying like oh we're going to make a stable coin out of like airline reward cards and my question and and suspicion would be the same for you which is that how do you continue

that when people go ask for redemptions and at some point somebody's got to pay for all this stuff so I'm yeah you're right I think I lost my point that was trying to make earlier but once you create a System where you have a Tang tangible value for example you know you can get um one blue you can get up to $10 worth of air miles or gift cards for example the whole Trend that people want to speculate externally changes over time you know that's what we trying to achieve here and it's not something that

it's it's new I've been saying that in our last am and so on we get aware that this there's no guarantees of it happening but we have to make an effort In order to get there right so this is what we kind of this is what our attempt is you know of course things can change but the idea is to make sure that we can you know once we provide that service the network effect kind of changes the whole perspective where people go away from the whole mindset of oh let's earn this and kind of

get rid of this as soon as possible to go and trade on mcoins to let's you know this is really worth it Because it gives us all these kind of features that we can use within the app and it gives us more value when I kind of interact with the system in app that's the goal and again if there might be some flaws with the financial modeling but even that's even been highlighted by ourselves and our fq and uh ey themselves which I can promise you it is currently being improved and there will be a

second or third versions of you know our updates on what we trying To achieve here well there's no way you're going to be able to offer what you're currently offering the 10% uh CR the 10% rewards back and a stable value for airline tokens are not going to work so if you this is your new plan for sustainability you're doomed well look in the white in my technical white paper I've already said this if in the event that there's not not enough um fuel being generated then those uh those rewards won't be emitted you know

we Would not create new tokens in order to give those kind of um lucrative rewards and that's how we want to build it so anyone on those kind of levels and if we don't because everything's on chain right so we don't have to hide behind internal data so people can see what kind of fuel collection there is so it that has been covered so if it doesn't if it comes to a point where we are not collecting enough fuel we won't be issuing those kind of Rewards and everything will adjust automatically so there's something called

the difficulty adjustment um not the one that we did last year but there's another a different version of it which be kind of included in the white paper so I mean if you need a reference to it I can point you to it but that has been covered wait wait I we we need to address this whole like everything's on chain everything is not on chain there's A bunch of plue in your internal uh system which is not actually on chain you guys have it in internal ledgers and then later people can in theory withdraw

it but you know there been some people who've been banned and their internal account balances have never gotten to them as well as the fact internally that that shows nowhere up on the blockchain So when you say like everything's on chain it's all verifiable actually it's not is it okay Great I mean you're connecting two different things when I say onchain it's I'm relating it to fuel which is trans onchain transactions made between different wallets and the fuel that is collected as a result of it so that will be always be on chain we can't

have that internal because that's going to be built on in within the tokenomics and cod it into the new token Network that we migrate to ear next here so that's going to be completely different the Plue that is an internal balance yes I mean that's no secret there's we've we've been releasing data in relation to that over the last few years plus uh every time we do a Recon every 3 months it has to be give access to all our data to a regulated third party called hagers and crter they're the ones who have to

go through all the pl transactions and they approve the amount of plue that we can take out from the rewards pool and issues to customers and they do take the Responsibility for it so we it's not we don't have a process where like CG or F FBS whatever go and you know have access to whatever we want we have certain procedures in place to be completely transparent and build trust um these are I mean Recon blogs you can see the all the PDFs everything is public we've been doing this for several years now it happens

every three months and you know when we do when we make this reconciliations we we every single Transaction is verified so I think we're good on that for yeah yeah I was I was just making the point that it's not actually on chain um and we can trust we can trust external yeah we can trust external uh Auditors if if you want but I'm just I'm just making the simple point that that not everything's on chain I mean my bigger concern obviously is the um the sustainability of this it's not sustainable you haven't made the

case For it being sustainable I'm concerned I'm concerned for your users I'm concerned for sort of everyone in the system let let me ask you something let's say you guys go bust what happens to people's debit card balances do you guys have access to those funds do you guys touch those funds do you not have access what's going on there I mean look I for us we we we we want to always build a platform in a way where we have less exas of customer funds as possible Which is what we achieved I used to

run an exchange before I started pues started in 2013 to all the way up to 2015 called lazy coins ran there for 2 years and then exited because running exchange is the most difficult thing in the world why because you're always in there targeted by you know every single day you have to ensure security and you're in the middle of and you have responsibility of like handling customer funds so once I exited from lazy coins The idea was to build something that you know you never have to control customer funds you're just the you're just

the one that provides all the cool features and earns Revenue as a result of it so we did that I mean we a um PL that you earn in app is um non I mean is centralized but we promote people to know request payouts and stack in their personal connected wallets I mean that's been our USP since you know a decade when before even D5 was a thing I mean You can verify that for my my Reddit post from 2015 so now I'm concerned about Fiat I'm concerned about Fiat so when people when people yeah

but Fiat look we don't when somebody deposits Fiat in our let's say account ples account it doesn't we don't hold L fund we don't have no control over that that goes to um our banking Partners modeler provided accounts who are regulated and also uh the funds are stored in a segregated segregated ins Shorted Accounts at um a bank of England and similar institutions in Europe so and it's outside of any limitations of ples which is I completely ideal for us because we don't want that responsibility right so just to be clear should anything happen to

you guys and your sustainable system people's funds are separated they would not be in any way impacted yes absolutely that's okay that that's been built that way intentionally I mean if if we if we look If we had ACC to customer funds we would also have um Stadium sponsorships and you know you would have known about us many years ago okay great those are my questions thank you okay so that's the interview I hope you enjoyed it um what is so crazy to me is they brought this all on themselves if this guy hadn't accused

Reddit of defaming him I never would have heard about these guys and um now I think they have very serious Problems and I don't think they're being adequately addressed but I wanted to go over their responses to me just in the interest of transparency I asked them can you address accusations of censorious practices including claims that Daniel sought out user emails to enforce bans uh this is from an ex employee they told me that uh they say you know our Discord channel is accessible to all customers however we recently implemented a verification Process for disruptive

participants to verify if they are in fact Pluto's customers over 95% of users received a caution for violation of community guidelines which that's if 95% of your users are in violation of your community guidelines it's a problem while a handful identified as high-risk by compliance were either offboard or Pro asked to provide a source of income which some didn't so the accusation was they didn't like what people were saying On their Discord they made those people hand over their emails because they couldn't identify who they were and when they did they said oh surprise we

have to compliance wants you to submit a source of funds or whatever and they would get banned so here's my another uh second question can you speak to recent changes and withdrawal policies which users feel with restrict Cashing Out rewards in the cash back card so they say plutus is uh Defined as an inapp loyalty reward token our Legacy team specify its intended use is for inapp features okay they haven't had much inapp features and self storage in self- custody wallets uh sort of again like it does it doesn't make sense you're having a cash

back card a cash back reward program that punishes you if you take it to maintain the Integrity of our platform we conduct um audits for card refund fraud or using rewards to uh move Rewards to third party platforms to gamble on Meme coins and so this is their thing they say if you're transacting you're sending it to a third party maybe you're just gambling on Meme coins how do you respond to claims that plutus operates as a Ponzi scheme with unsustainable rewards and limited withdrawal options a Ponzi scheme involves taking money from one user to

pay another plutus in contrast provides a Loyalty Rewards redeemable for real Benefits or inapp features and generates Revenue through uh Partnerships with establish providers like Visa curve and miles and more additionally we blah blah blah um we launched a current crypto to Fiat deck claims of a Ponzi and similar labels come from disruptive users who exploit the system frequently funneling rewards to fund personally gambling on exchanges so uh if you say things bad about plutus they think you're they think you're frequently funneling Rewards to personal gambling um for better understanding see our guide on productive

versus nonproductive use please explain how plutus 10% cash back and 10% CR uh rates are sustained given that they far exy typical credit card rewards we talked this about this a lot in the AMA but they bring up that oh we have validated reports by E Ern ernston young uh with features like fuel all CR um emissions are 100% self-sustainable I've given Been gone over over and over why I don't think that's true um okay for a deeper understanding I strongly recommend reviewing the technical white paper and eny Report how much runway does plutus have

left till bankruptcy recent changes suggest a company in distress plutus developed multiple Diversified revenue streams blah blah blah are they going to answer the question um no they just say we've been bootstrapped for a decade there are Disruptive accounts okay it's starting to repeat itself a little bit um plut claims to be self- custody yet PL rewards are sto stored in internal Ledger how can users trust this PL won't uh be seized or exceed the total Supply again we covered this in the AMA I'm not going to go over it too much here uh they

basically say hey look we don't mind when people withdraw their money uh but those withdrawals are subject to Delays according to their users why did ernston Young assume users can't withdraw sell swap their plue tokens and instead stack indefinitely that would seem to obviously uh shoot their conclusion in the face and they say eron young made uh conservative assumptions for simplification as noted in their report similar to loyalty programs assuming all users will indefinitely defer uh rewards redemptions okay I don't understand why that's a fair Assumption however this does not impact the financial model for

sustainability yes it does which is extrapolated from historical onchain data and has been technically audited by third party we talked about that we are still working with Ian to improve certain aspects of the model further it's been clarified in amas um fill out this form to have the report sent over trust pilot shows plutus Flags negative reviews 75 uh 72% of the time and claims plutus asks paid Ambassadors to uh leave positive reviews can you address this okay so for quick context trust pilot is like a review platform and they have a transparency page where

you can see how many times a platform flagged a review as not real they're to do that but then the user can go back and say no I am a real user so you have this rate of false flagging by the company and usually it's seen as abusive if that rate is very high so obviously in this case the rate was 72% That's extremely high they say we solicit genuine reviews from ambassadors to share their lived experience okay ambassadors um you know that's another way of saying they're paid in some way or they're compensated in

some way or some way affiliated with the program so that's strange additionally we uh attach to zip file showing evidence of coordinated targeting of reviews a matter currently addressed uh by our legal team in direct communication with Trust pilot so that's just where they show that there are disgruntled users behind the scenes in like telegram groups or something uh just talking amongst themselves about trust pilot please see attached screenshots for ambassador's channel regarding the trust pilot and other reviews um they say we appreciate all ambassadors who leave a genuine review on their respective app stores

please consider this a welcome but voluntary task um um and then last Question do you acknowledge the psh Ambassador role is purely voluntary okay so that so that's the responses I just wanted to include those for the sake of transparency um so that they can't claim that I'm taking them out of context or anything like that obviously we've played their interview in full so uh yeah that's basically it I think this is this platform is headed for trouble I don't think what they're doing is sustainable I don't think they have any Economic activity that equals

the amount they're promising out and I think what's clear is that the founder Daniel um or the CEO excuse me doesn't want to lower these rates because he knows okay this is why users are here for these higher rewards but there doesn't seem to be an acknowledgement that like at some point you have to pay for this stuff uh they kept saying like oh we don't pay for this stuff or some version of its magic money that doesn't have to be paid for At the end of the day I don't think they're generating enough Revenue

I would stay away from this thing um although if what they're saying about like we don't actually hold your money is true that would be good but again the question is how do we verify that do we actually believe that to be the case I don't personally know so uh that's it that's my investigation into uh plutus and my interview with their founder thanks for watching