"Beginning of End" For Zionism - Israeli Historian w/. Ilan Pappé

Now Ilan Pape the celebrated Israeli historian has been long one of the most important voices that we have when it comes to docking about Israel and Palestine and since the current genocide began um of course his voice has become even more important than than ever um Elan it's such an honor to be able to speak to you belatedly I should have done this a long time ago um so I'm glad we're finally communicating on video and I know my audience would be delighted uh great to speak to you how you doing I'm fine thank you

and thank you so much for having me yes we we already planned that long time ago I'm glad it unfolded eventually it's finally it's finally happened um so look let's just actually begin you know we're coming to the end now of 2024 and already I remember thinking back to the end of 2023 and thinking about the horror being Unleashed against the people of Gaza and I have to say if I knew maybe I wouldn't be shocked but knew a year later we'd be discussing still the Apparently Limitless amount of depravity being released against the people

of Gaza I think i' I'd been pretty chilled by that to be honest and here we are what what have you I want to ask you as a you know this you're a historian of Israel and palestin you know historical context is always on your mind what have You learned since October 2023 has anything changed in the way you look at this yes I think in in two in two ways something I think two aspects became a bit clear uh compared to our all of ours more immediate reactions and and you know immediate reactions are

sometimes a bit uh a Miss because it makes sense you don't have a perspective and and you you don't really know how things develop but I think now we have a better sense so so One thing that is is clear to me although I already felt this was true even few months after the 7eventh of October that contrary to what some people say we are not at the beginning of the worst chapter in the history of Palestine and the Palestinians in general and that of Gaza of course in particular I think we are in the

end of that chapter so I think I think that this kind of chapter in history that began in in the nakba in 1948 some People rightly would say maybe even earlier but definitely with the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and the Palestinian call this whole historical chapter the ongoing in Arabic this this is now reached an aex undoubtedly of of brutality of ruthlessness ethnic cleansing has turned in into genocide all this is true but I don't think it's an indication that now a long chapter of uh destruction is continue I really think that this is Going

to be uh uh the beginning of the end of of the Zionist colonialist project in Palestine exactly because it is so ruthless and because and and we may elaborate about it a bit later but that that's one one kind of analysis that I hesitant I hesitated to to to present at the very beginning of the events and now I'm much more confident about it the second one and this is still for me the greatest surprise if you want or bewilderment of what Happened I mean I was not surprised by the the level of violence the

Hamas performed on the 7th of October and I'm afraid to say that I was not surprised by the level of the brutality and inhumanity of of the Israeli reaction I was surprised by the total indifference of the West and in particular of the European West uh uh this is still something that I don't I I can provide some partial explanation for why this indifference to the most televised daily Genocide we've ever had since the the beginning of the end of the second world war but I'm still find it Beyond Comprehension uh and that is a

process that has to my mind impact beyond the question of Gaza or Palestine I think that impacts the whole issue of the international legal system the whole whole issue what are Universal values and the face of the global South in anything that the global North or Global West would put forward as Universal principles for running the world or or the order in the world so so I think that that's a huge crisis of confidence in in international institutions and laws that will have far-reaching impact on all of us wherever we are uh in years to

come I mean before I ask you about the first part which is very very challenging I think a lot of people listen to that particularly in the Here and Now would would definitely obviously want me to Ask you to expand on that so I will but before I do I mean that that second point you talk about the indifference because I think I mean one thing I've always said is never stop being shocked even if you understand the Dynamics it play you can understand the Dynamics it play but you should never be numb but it

is is is about that which is I wrote a piece um uh last month where I just the reason I was really struck by what you said is is is I tried to put that in Words um and I wrote about an apparently invisible Fortress the West's official Narrative of Israel's Onslaught against Gaza and and what I was trying to look at is it didn't matter how depraved the atrocity or how overwhelming the evidence or how confess to the crime because you know as razy gal the Israeli American associate professor of Holocaust and genocide study

puts it it's very rare for intent actually to be so explicit in these cases and we've Seen that from the very start but it doesn't matter the narrative always the official respectable narrative always survives when you and I talk about say genocide or even war crimes that almost puts a badge on us as outside of the official respectable narrative we're extreme we're radicals dangerous do you see what I mean and I'm interested in that no it's almost though there's no level of depravity or confession to depravity that narrative has remained Titanium protected nothing seems to

budget in respectable circles yeah well definitely first of all it's a fair analysis I I think very few people can argue with you that this is the situation now let's see if we can at least unpack it a bit and and see if we can explain it my maybe it's the historian in me but I do think there is an historical context for that kind of immunity that kind of exceptionalism uh this this kind of gap Between the reality uh the Stark reality on the ground and the false uh uh language and vocabulary used to

to describe it by people who definitely are not idiots and one cannot suspect that they are not educated or knowledgeable and yet they do it maybe even knowingly or maybe unconsciously I don't know but I do think it's especially in Europe let's put the the Americans aside for a moment that was a good idea um um the the Europeans I think still treat This whole issue of Israel and Palestine is something that they are part of uh and and their part in it is is is not a pleasant one it's almost like a complicity Zionism

in the end of the day was as a European solution for European problem the problem was the way Europe treated his Jews uh uh through racism and eventually through through genocide and and and Zionism whoever conceived it provided this easy way out uh by by saying we we'll build a European Jewish State at the heart of the Arab world at the heart of the Muslim World we'll impose it on the indigenous people of Palestine and by that we can forget about it uh but but it seems that it doesn't work and and and and therefore

in order I think in order not to fully uh appreciate and accept the the consequences of this impracticable immoral uh project that was sustained through force not through moral validity only through force uh uh I think this is Where there's still a hope that maybe with language they can kind of launderette the fact that uh the solution for this European problem was the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinians not only saving the Jews but actually destroying another people uh and and all these European you know Juggy saying it's a small Injustice to to rectify a

bigger one after the last year you cannot even say that sentence in any serious Manner And I think that that is really the issue here as long as the Israeli oppression was incremental here and there Justified or could be covered up as part of self-defense and part of an attempt to sustain a so-called peace process fine it worked but what Israel did in Gaza did not allow any any such maneuvering or manipulations and I think that's part it's a partial explanation I don't think it's the only one and our Marxist friends rightly would would add

some economic uh interest into that but I think that's a very important uh psychological infrastructure uh uh for that kind of uh incomprehensible uh uh indifference uh to the suffering of of of people uh which is daily screen on our phones and and televisions and and and so on yeah I mean with with that I mean you know it's the live streaming as you said I mean obviously the work of Palestinian Journalists he suffered the biggest thought of journalists in recorded history often alongside their family their their children um but the I mean that point

about intent about confession which i' I've tried to raise over and over again but but it's it's almost like it's compartmentalized in a parallel universe in that you'll get Israeli leaders and officials who say one thing to their local audiences um and then they have their Spokespeople who come on Western media Outlets to claim they're abiding by international law and not attacking civilians um which they don't say actually to the if you listen to what they say at home in Hebrew I mean it's I mean that's almost it's been that's what's happened is it's almost

you know I mean Western media coverage didn't frame itself around that intent I often give this hideous example to be honest right at the beginning Um and this was um the um Israeli general in charge of Kat which is for those who don't know these civilian Affairs and he said Hamas became Isis and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified Human animals are dealt with accordingly Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza no electricity no water just damage you wanted hell you will get hell that was in a tweet addressed to

both Hamas and the residents of Gaza so there's no Pretense there but that was almost not covered in any sing Western media Outlet do you see what I mean it just has it's a different universe that's how it has to you just you just have to just pretend it's not being said or done absolutely you know sometimes I think the Israelis treat Hebrew as a secret language and and therefore they allow themselves to say things that they think that afterwards nobody would hear and it's just for domestic consumption And then they're really surprised when it

turns out that some people who speak Hebrew are horrified by what they said and translated to other languages uh and if you look at the dossier that uh South Africa presented to the icj uh it's definitely I don't think all the people who were in this delegation knows Hebrew but they have enough people who help them to translate uh uh uh into English uh these clear manifestation of intent uh by senior politicians senior Military Officers and if you go even deeper into this to the uh orders that were issued by Brigade commanders on the eve

of the entry to Gaza uh you will find this language uh uh of an intentional genocide all over it uh uh including references to to biblical uh uh chapters of uh you know genociding the amales uh and so on I mean this is uh unfortunately it's a very easy case I would say for for anyone who takes the the most known definition of genocide in The United Nation Charter and checks whether this definition fits the case study of the Israeli intent right here as you say not only the manifestations or the application of of that

policy on the ground I I would go even further and and and this is something that really we have to we have to take into account because I do believe as I said in my first point that the Israelis are Facing uh uh really a moment of truth in the whole history of the state I'll come back to it in a minute I just want to say that because of that the only solution that the current Israeli politicians who run the country see I'm not saying they're not aware of it but they believe they have

a wind of opportunity to prevent it and the only way to prevent it is a total Destruction of the Palestinians not just as people but as an Idea as a concept this is why they're attacking Andra and this is why they're working now in Syria and other places to to kind of create a region an Arab world that has put the Palestine issue behind it and and uh I don't think they will succeed by the way but I do believe that they can you know wreak a lot of havoc and and and connage uh before

the failure would would become clear I mean that's what I'm to ask you about of course that that very challenging Argument that actually this this could be the beginning of the end for that d project and a lot of people will go I mean you know the Israeli State might just respond in a very Triumph way Gaza wipes off the face of the Earth the West Bank I mean they've got away with the pogram there essentially uh Palestinian existence there becoming ever more unbearable uh Southern Lebanon um reduced large parts of it to Rubble Hezbollah

Smashed uh Iran hobbled um the obviously now Assad regime even though in practice it's um claims to be H you know actively support the Palestinian people we not I mean we can talk about elsewhere but you know think they're rable but nonetheless you can look at that and go well actually things have gone yeah sure if you don't like mass murder if you don't like war crimes boohoo whoo for you they might say but things are going pretty well for us we're smashing our own Enemies we're smashing our opponent and now we've got Donald Trump

in the White House and a load of pro Israel zealots things are looking pretty good for that project that's what they would say would you think yeah of course and there are two immediate points one can respond to one is there's a huge number of Israelis who don't fancy living in a country that this is its H future this is its Vision to be constantly using military force in order to exist and Military force that has to be more and more brutal and ruthless uh not only towards armies but also towards population we don't know

the exact number of Israelis who left after 7th of October some journalists in Israel put it around 700,000 other talk about half a million it's not only the numbers it is the the kind of characteristic of that group that has left and it shows you that what they understand and this is not out of any particular solidarity With the Palestinian suffering what they understand is that in order to survive in the state for them their children and their grandchildren Israel would always have to have this upper hand in in military in security means now for

a normal person they would like some you know stability in life some some peace in one's own normal life this is not the place to be in undoubtedly even if yes the last four weeks were successful from military point of view will the next Four weeks be successful uh would uh would it happen again and it will happen again of course that there will be another Palestinian Uprising there will be another seventh of October that's very clear uh and and uh things can change in the Arab world but that means your only future is all

the time in in making sure that your military budget is the most important element in your in your States bud you know even economically not to mention Psychologically and mentally so so that's one point the point that uh this is not a vision that is shared by a large number of Israelis I mean some of them would say there's no other choice unfortunately because they can't see any options but uh those who can afford it uh economically and because they have uh dual nationalities and so on and reignite their professions elsewhere uh are already leaving

so so there's something very Hollow here there's kind Of a social implosion from the inside there's a domestic price to be paid for this supposedly invinci the the re the the Resurgence of the idea of the invincibility of the Israeli Army which I'm still doubting I mean they defeated two Guerilla movements in the end of the day that's what they did Guerilla movements who had no Air Force had no tanks uh and so on so so to put it in perspective it's quite important uh as well but the second point is also ve ve Very

important uh this kind of um uh Vision uh from an economic point of view uh uh would need a very strong Global Alliance led by the United States that would not only support Israel diplomatically and politically but materially uh we already know the expenditure that this success has produced beyond anything Israel has ever spent on on on Military uh issues and and you think about even someone like Donald Trump uh and any other Isolationist politician that would come from the Republican party or the Democratic party I wonder whether in five six seven years they would

regard Israel as such an asset when they will have to pay for all of this because the Israelis don't have that many resources to pay for themselves so so there are there are these kinds of immediate responses but there's something more profound going on here unless you believe that the world Cannot change then yes maybe it's too too early to say it's a beginning of the end but if you have even you know a modum of belief that the political system we liveing whether it's in Britain or in Israel or in the United States or

uh in in tury it doesn't matter uh whether you but if you even have a modum of belief that the the current political situation or constellation is not forever you don't take a determinist view and you think About more positive alternatives to the existing political system any positive ex alternative even a slight move towards such an alternative model will bring the end of the zanis project closer uh uh because the way you can sustain Israel is only in a world that is ruled by populist leaders uh right-wing Neo fascist parties dict dictators in the Arab

world uh a democratic Arab world a more democratic and liberal even uh West and Global South uh would not tolerate the kind of state that Israel has become I mean I don't tell part about you know the illusion of every age is that it will last forever and I agree with you but I guess you know in the here and now one might look at the position Israel's in uh I mean you say you know for example the idea you know a 7th another October 7th Could Happen um but I mean You know some like

go well there was only one seventh of October that ever happened in the history of Israel and that was because the Israeli military you know they saw Gaza a sealed tomb from which nobody would ever emerge anyway um and they didn't have their military in place to prevent what happened including of course the killing of Israeli civilians but that that they wouldn't make that mistake ever again I mean what you say you know they can just Basically insulate Israel from anything um and you know if there's any attack on them they just wipe out Southern

Lebanon you know there were surprised when the first antifa broke out they were surprised when the second one broke out uh uh they Israel needs to employ I don't know if any other country maybe some like North Korea is a good example for that Israel needs to employ I think even North Korea is not as bad in that in that respect Israel needs to employ Hundreds of thousands of its own people to police the Palestinians so that the Palestinians would reconcile with living in mega prisons such as West Bank or in a ghetto like Gaza

or an aparted state which is experienced by the Palestinian citizens of Israel how long can they really do this I I mean how how much is it really a secure policy for the future if you have millions of people now reaching a number That is equal to your own citizens uh who are uh not willing to go away are resisting are resilient and are not going to give up not to mention the millions of the same people and Nation who are on Israel borders and and the fact that so many people in the Civil Society

in the Arab world and the Muslim World support them I mean you have to take into account this constellation uh yes admittedly I you Know to simplify it we can say there's a global Israel and Global Palestine so yes right now global Israel which is made of Israel supporters mostly populist uh leaders right-wing governments uh maybe even industrial military complexes and Multinational Corporation fine very very powerful Alliance I don't doubt it but there's a global Palestine the one that is supported by so many people in civil societies which The global South look at the position

of some of the Latin American countries look at the changes in some countries like like Estonia and so on this is an incremental process of isolating Israel of turning it into a rogue State I know people are very um unhappy in Palestine about the icj and the IC and I can see why because it was the their rulings have not translated yet into an effective action but I think is a very fundamental change in the way the world Re relates to Israel and Palestine the ICC and icj are not just an organic part of the

Civil Society that kind of the medium medium between the Civil Society and uh the corridors of power and and I think that that is very significant in the long run so you know we can add to this the the attitude of the young Jewish generation including in the United States so many Jews do not want to be associated with Israel now we we can all say that doesn't matter they Don't have brigades they don't have political power they don't have a clout clout in the Congress and so on but this is a still picture what

we're talking about we're not talking the video here the video is shows the changes very slow too slow for the people of Gaza and I'm afraid maybe even too slow for the people of the West Bank if we are right in our apprehension that Israel would move with the same model to the West Bank I fully agree but in the long run I See this as this ruthless Israel as burying its own home uh in terms of of international standing legitimacy uh and and they you can buy the Arab regimes but you cannot by the

Arab people and and and Israel is still a minority in the Arab world I mean Israel is not part of Europe it it wants to be maybe part of Europe but it is in the heart of the Arab world and the Muslim world that since the 20 2011 is undergoing its own Revolution There Is Now counter Revolution but this is not over and this whole project does not fit the aspiration of people in this part of the world and other parts of the world for a different world and and if you are in that situation

only force and more force would sustain you I wonder historical experience whether this is a long-term business well I suppose yeah with with that cap on the historical context Capon in terms of looking as you know a guide using that as the guide for The future because that point you made about I mean essentially Israel's position is the Palestinian population represent an existential problem and they work backwards from that um which is why you talk about an idea I mean that's why you often have cheerleaders for the Israeli State say there's no such thing as

the Palestinians I mean that's been a perennial claim because they their fear is this the very identity the sense of identity that Palestinians have posed as an existential threat to the Israeli project and as you know the attack on unra the um the refugee Agency for Palestinians is they hate that because it's this it sustains the idea that Palestinians are refugees who'd be kick from those but couldn't they just thought you know when when when smotrich um uh you know the Israeli Finance Minister talks about thinning out gaza's population by half in two Years under

Trump my point is could they just not do that they could just gradually people through death through um what they call voluntary migration you make guards are uninhabitable obviously which they have and then you just under humanitarian guards you just start EX exporting the population maybe do a deal with CC in Egypt of some description he's a western back dictator uh in the West Bank just gradually again exfix Palestinian existence so people Just leave do you see what I mean I mean couldn't they just get away with just getting rid of the Palestinian population from

Gaza and the West Bank over a period of time they could get away in the short run but they cannot get away in the longrun uh you know I don't want to mention names but there were other regimes in history that two or three years after they came into Power the world seemed to be unable to stop them from any plans whether it was Occupying other nations whether it was genociding them and so on and it seemed like nobody would ever be able to stop them 5 six L years later they were stopped eventually so

yes I mean they could do all these things and unfortunately they want to do all these things and of course I'm not just an historian I'm also an activist so I I I'm not just an onlooker and and and an analyst I'm also part of of a movement that would do all they can to stop it But uh beyond that let's say that we unfortunately are not that powerful right now to stop it which is which is a unfortunate possibility nonetheless the success of that is to me from an historical perspective another uh uh factor

that would bring it down uh I I think that you have to look at the U more liberal forces that were part of this Global Israeli Alliance what they benefited from was the kind of double talk that you referred to before That the Israelis were were kind of conveying you know we are actually the only democracy in the Middle East we we are part of the Social Democratic World in fact even more than just the the Democratic world yes we have enemies we have problems but all in all uh this is our aspiration is for

peace and so on this discourse has disappeared from the Israeli political scene so um I think it would be more and more difficult uh for the politicians in the west that are not Populist that are not part of the fascist Neo right uh to continue and do it they still do it there's a strong Lobby there is still fear and timidity uh because politicians especially of this generation are thinking of the next election and not of any moral values but here and there we can see the signs that the lobby was successfully destroying but it

will be these signs will increase like someone like Corbin Someone Like Bernie sunders I mean these are not Going to be exceptions of the rule that are going disappear we won't hear about them again this are just you know Trail braises this is going to change and and um we therefore I'm I I'm looking I wish I had the formula uh how to narrow the gap between the very slow process that I think is positive as far as the Palestinians is concerned regionally and globally and the very quick process of Destruction on the ground and

and yeah And how to how to how to narrow the Gap is is our our biggest Mission this uh in this lifetime for sure because you're absolutely right in the way you analyze the Israeli intentions and possibilities under Trump in by way not only under Trump but don't just give it to course yeah yeah you're right there other other political forces in the globe that help it but the pans are not alone that is important these these Global forces are not only representing you know C lunch For Israel to do what he want they also

represent injustices in many other Fields including in their own countries so so there is there is a potential for much stronger alliance with pistan just epitomizes it but it's not alone because you alluded to that you know the the Israeli propaganda kind of presentation of the only democracy in the Middle East and you know I interviewed offer CIF uh who is a very courageous Jewish Israeli politician in Hadash of course I know you've you've been involved in you've stood um for election under the hadash banner they're the leftist Alliance of Jewish and Arab citiz Palestinian

citizens of of Israel but I mean I want to put F this point I mean in terms of where Israel is heading and see what you think about this because he was talking about fascism he just talked about you know fascism he fears for his life he says you know he talks about um the possibility of having To flee Israel that's what he talked about with me but I I wonder in terms of this kind of if this is almost what you're alluding to and see if this analogy works at all because in climate science

there's this idea of a hot House Effect where temperature rises get to a point where it becomes it becomes exponential um there's a theory that's what what happened to Venus Venus is this hot house where it's you know Impossibly hot the atmosphere is so thick now I'm wondering if that's the process the analogist process with with Israeli state that you get this process of radicalization where you know it gets more and more this the internal Dynamic with nothing to stop it radicalizes and radicalizes and radicalizes it until it consumes the whole project and that it

collapses and becomes completely and utterly unsustainable I mean is that What it is is there a Hot House effect of fascist radicalization happening in Israel at the moment yes and I and I I think it is and and uh uh you know like offer I also fear for my life but I'm I'm 70 years old so I'm I'm going to stay where I want to stay um but um I I would say that this is this is exactly what characterizes such a a fascist regime in making or maybe is already there is offer claims that

uh it everybody Becomes an enemy not just the Palestinians the secular Jews become the enemy uh the the reformed Jews become become the enemy I mean they're going to swallow and consume everyone apart from those who they think are totally uh uh uh supporting their Messianic Neo Zionist vision of a fascist Israel that is feared by its neighbors and has put has expunged the whole Palestinian issue out of history and out of geography uh and this is this is not going to work This is not going to work because there is a limit to how

far you can go especially with the origins of this project that uh at least its Founders believe that materially have material help is not enough that you need moral legitimacy uh uh uh for for its existence now this moral legitimacy has been seriously eroded these particular politicians and and and leaders do not think moral legitimacy International moral legitimacy is important anymore uh That is true and that's why they have no inhibitions in what they're going to do I'm not sure that this is the side Guist that we live in that really you can totally ignore

that kind of thing uh after all the are other Rogue states in the world and it's we we tend to forget that some of these Rogue states do suffer from sanctions do suffer from isolation uh and and uh we we are not sure that this is going to be something sustainable just because there is this Belief that you don't care about the moral illegitimacy or because there are as we talked before this kind of political movements and leaders in the world who who don't care about moral validity uh as well I I I do agree

that they exist and they are probably uh preventing us from finishing this project sooner rather than than later but in the end of the world I I you know I I I do believe and and I feel Connected to so many movements of change in the world especially more the younger generation that I I refuse to accept that the current situation is is fatalistic that you know there's nothing we can do now if we believe that we can do something then we can do something about Palestine as well this this this is closely connected I

mean if you want a better Britain uh in terms of your Universal values your economic social cultural Values if you believe that it could be a more just Britain and so on if you think the labor part is not really representing these values as much as one hope hoped for then you should be also hopeful about Palestine the things are interconnected they're very interconnected sometimes it's more complex but on the other hand it shows you that even if you Palestinians understandably would feel totally alone and isolated they're much less alone and Isolated than maybe they

can realize in this terrible conditions in which they which they experience right now one thing I want I mean we will end on Hope by the way I promise um it's okay great so many of this conversation hate and with the spair that I know exactly that that has happened a lot but I even managed I getting L the other week I imaged him to say some hopeful things so maybe there is hope after that's that's Unique because he he's a he's exactly the pessimist obviously huge fan of his but it was it was it

was it was heartening to hear him talking hopeful terms before I do that I mean in terms of I I guess you know genocidal further I'm not quite short genocide Mania I've often described it I'm interested in this in a historical context and how many precedents there are for it there were Very many I mean there were c i I interviewed so many courageous Jewish Israeli figures on this channel and we'll keep doing so that you're courageous because you're at present isolated and the polling is Bleak if I'm honest I mean you know some polls

show about half you know there's a 50-50 split amongst Jewish is radies between those who think enough Firepower has been used in Gaza and the other half thinking not enough has been used um About 60% consistently opposing all humanitarian Aid being allowed into Gaza which would mean everybody dying in in brutal terms um what I'm interested in is I guess the ingredients here because I often think about Serb nationalism in Bosnia as one parallel because serbs were victims in the war they were they're victims of of genocide um the stachi the Croatian collaborators I mean

the Nazis thought they were do it extreme in some ways um and they also Suffered atrocities in the Bosnian war and they fused that sense of victimhood which had a basis it wasn't fictional with a sense of superiority as well that they were superior to the bosniacs for example now I I mean in this situation you have that you know because Jewish people have been for 2,000 years persecuted culminating within living memory of course with the shower the extermination of 6 million Jews 2ir of Europe's population in a very short Space of time um so

that victim is real um and then you have um uh the settler colonialism and the mentality settler colonialism generates in all different many different contexts um you have um uh as well you have um impunity I suppose which is an extra maybe a different the Bosnian serbs didn't have impunity did they actually they you know I mean there was there was military intervention is that what do you think I mean I'm just interested in how is are Those the kind of unique ingredients which have inspired uh to create the grounds for what are you know

because only 2% of any society of sociopath it's not like most people have this power of empathy which is eliminated by dehumanization and that dehumanization of the Palestinians is extremely widespread I'm wondering is it how unprecedented is that what we're looking at in Israel um and is it actually do you think it's impunity Added in to those different other ingredients which you have seen in other societies I think that the phenomenon itself of dehumanization in Israel is not unique no I mean it's an extreme example because it is kind of a double dose of dehumanization

it's a fusion of romantic nationalism which is always a a variet of nationalism that totally dehumanizes anyone who does not belong to the nation ever since this kind of brand of Nationalism emerg in Europe in the mid 19th century together with settler colonialism which of course dehumanizes from the very beginning of its encounter for with any indigenous native population the native population is part of its wish to displace and replace uh the local people so you have kind of a double dose here if you want of dehumanization I think what is unique is not so

much the dehumanization itself and which is reflected as you rightly Said in the polls of support for the war or even the uh wish to stop the war not because it is a deuman humanized War but because they believe it might lead to the release of the the hostages or they don't want to see many more soldiers killed or whatever but but the main motive is is not the suffering of of the Palestinians here I think what is unique and I cannot find an example and and actually it comes out in your attempt to to

compare it to Bosnia is the uh International exceptionalism that de humanization um you know you hear philosophers of morality especially in places like France the United States and Germany people who I've known for years and I really respected their writing their their contribution to articulating what is humanity what is morality and so on and they forget their own value system their own preachings when they talk about Israel it's quite remarkable it's like they become total Idiots when they talk about Israel in Palestine as if anything they themselves has WR have written about preached about is

not relevant to the case of of Israel as if they fear they fear to say the word Jewish racism for instance in this uh connection and and I think that kind of immunity uh for the dehumanization is unique it's very unique and of course it contributes to the dehumanization itself because if you are not them for you dehumanizing uh the Palestinians there's Very little incentive to stop it uh and I think that was a great shock for the Israelis what happened in the icj and the IC and still if you read the Israeli analysis of

the icj and the IC they say this is nothing new this is part of this anti- new anti-Semitism which luckily we have powerful friends uh from the United states to Britain and other places that would make sure that this is an insignificant uh uh uh development and Of course when the United States threatens the IC in particular after it issued the arrest warrant for Netanyahu they feel you know that this is validated in in in their approach so the dehumanization itself was there uh may be hidden because of this International exceptionalism uh but those of

of us who who were born here like myself who were part of the educational system here uh we always aware of it that this is the way uh you know every generation of Israeli graduates from the low from the mainstream school system can only have this kind of perspective on Palestinians totally dehumanization and and and and when it goes when these young people go through the Army it is it increases even because you have you have the power to translate dehumanization into actual killing uh and elimination actual elimination and that's what we have seen not

only in Gaza we keep forgetting how many young People and children and women were killed by the Israelis in the West Bank how many of them were killed during the NBA and so on so it has been there for 76 years uh uh it just became more extreme and yet again the most important part of it is the uh Western attitude towards it rather than the essence of it let's talk about Hope and you you you talked before actually about what we could almost describe is a great Divergence going on In the global Jewish Community

because there are as many Jewish people in the United States or around as there are in Israel I mean they've got almost the same Jewish population obviously it's it's just it's not concentrated way in the is already but but what I mean um and you you alluded to this in the polling uh the polling six months ago found 30% of Jewish Americans think is genocide and it found 40% of Jewish Americans under the age of 45 thought That Israel was committing genocide and the even you know polling with even younger Jewish Americans also finds even

more damning results we've seen Jewish Americans at the Forefront of solidarity movements with Palestine I mean do you think that's I mean it's interesting isn't it because what's happened I mean traditionally Jewish Americans have always been a very relatively Progressive demographic I'm not saying the Democrats are obviously leftwing Party but they've consistently rejected the Republicans uh in every election um after World War II there was the uh leftist candidate they were the most likely then again to support that particular candidate so there's always been this Jewish Progressive tradition in the United States which has always

existed but do you think this is significant in that you know because obviously amongst younger younger Jewish Americans they're having a different Perspective because often old America Jewish Americans kind of had this Progressive view of the of Israel don't they they they still hark back to that idea do I mean is that do you think that's a potential existential threat because I think Gideon Levy for example when I speak to him the hope he often thinks is that something's got to give American public opinion shifting but notably Jewish American public opinion is Shifting and that's

what matters yeah I think it's you know I look at this whole uh process of what I call the beginning beginning of the end as a process that has uh as discrete processes that some of them have not not much in Comon but one day I think we'll fuse into a very powerful transformative event and I I talk about these processes like cracks extensive cracks in the foundation of a building uh and and one of these extensive cracks is what you have just describe about the Jewish Community it's not the only one I don't think

you can bring down uh a set iial project but just one of these processes these processes have to to to meet together in one historical has happened in South Africa uh in one historical moment that some of the circumstances of that moment have nothing to do with your activism sometimes things happen that seemed unrelated and happen so that's just in general but yeah more focused indeed it is very important and I would Say something to these uh PS and statistics I think sometimes there hides an important fact not not by intention but because the nature

of this profession when you have these high numbers you have to understand that this is not just 40% and 30% most people who are American Jews do not deal with political issues the public domain it means that if you had an ability to find out what is the percentage among Jews who are willing not just to take care of Their own life who really think that there is some bigger causes than their own life for which they're willing to be a a part of are willing even to to sacrifice a career uh uh connection with

the family in the community want to be active in it I think the percentage is far higher I mean if you take it who whoever is willing to be an activist under the age of 45 among the American Jews I you know 50 definitely 30 years ago the vast majority would do it on Behalf of Israel today the vast majority of them would do it on behalf of Palestine and that's a fundamental change and some of these people might be the Senators and their representatives or the mainstream journalist of the future we don't know we

don't know what happens to them when they come when they enjoy the corridors of power uh but but there is a big potential here but but but as I said by itself this is not enough I think the The isolation in the in the community the internal explosion of Israel from within economically and socially I'm still not convinced about the invincibility of the Israeli armies everybody is now and I have I'm I'm not sure that we have seen the end of the Revolutionary forces in the Arab world and all of that together with a possibility

of a new generation of Palestinians who would lead a the Palestinian Liberation movement in a More unified a more representative a more Dem ratic way which is a very there's a good possibility for that happening as well if you look at the younger generation all this together I think means that this dark moment Palestinians may find it difficult to believe but I think they are as I said in the beginning of our conversation they are at the end of the worst chapter in their history that began in 1948 and I think we are reaching the

Beginning of a better chapter but uh we are not there yet undoubtedly we're not there yet but and we are all not on Lookers on that we can each individually and collectively contribute to to that new chapter beginning sooner rather than later my final question actually it's linked to that and it's it could be hopeful or despairing I suppose depending how you look at it is that for me you know you know it was actually said by um the US service Personnel who Um self imil early early this year oh yes um Aaron um bushel

and he said many of us like to ask ourselves what would I do if I was alive during slavery or the gym Pro south or apartheid what would I do if my country was commit genocide the answer is you're doing it right now and you know for me part of me thinks well look this crime is so obscene so depraved just you know so confessed to so evidenced that you know I've never lived through something Talking about the complicity of the West because obviously lots of other crimes have happened in my life but they've been

accepted as crimes you know I mean you know Rwanda is accepted as you know it's not the same but to go through where Western fingerprints are all over it it's so obvious to me that surely this has to go down in history is just a great one of the great crimes of our age um and I'm you know but then I think well that's either either we're going to Have that and if we don't it's because we're you know the the future of the West is fascist barbarism and in which we got bigger things as

well I'm afraid to worry about and I'm just wondering what you think about that you know because part of me thinks you know this could just be a foreshadow actually I mean some people worry about that you know and that's why the far right look at Israel actually is as something to his spy they see it as the front line of Western Civilization against the uh you know the Muslim hordes and barbarians you see the exporting of Technology by the way elsewhere and the rise of very rightwing authorit movies I just what you think about

that in terms of where we're heading because you know it seems so obvious that this I mean from a historical perspective you kind of think well obviously history has to record it for what it is but what what what's your sense of what you know that's an Open-ended question interpret As You Wish yeah yeah I I think there are two aspects like I can kind of respond to one would think think about Bushell and and and people like himself I think what was very characteristic of of him was that he did not get his information

what was going on in Palestine from the the main American Media that he he uh needed the alternative media uh as a source of information that helped him to form the very uh desperate but courageous moral Position which which is is an important aspect to think about it the the role of the alternative media and the lack of confidence and you have just written a brilliant article on this on the BBC uh there is a a a a great crisis of confidence in the mainstream media uh in the west which I think we still not

appreciating how it will play out in the future but it will play out in the future when people would say we don't trust them on Palestine then we don't Trust them also on other issues and and and that is something very important that of course can be can can play a very positive role in it as for the the the right-wing part of what I call the global Israel Alliance or the alliance of of maintaining the political systems as they are today I don't know from an historical perspective the right was always strong when the

left was unable to unite the right by itself I don't think is that strong as people put it uh Uh it is always strong when the left is uh not talking in a clear voice uh forgets its own Universal values and it and tends to be purist and forget the about pragmatism in order to create powerful alliances look CA Harris was an example of the first one not very clear what is the alternative and so on she had no chance against a populist leader I think Bernie suers would have done much better than CA Harris

in in in America uh secondly look At the second round of the French elections what happened when when uh you know the left have put a aside uh unfortunately for not too long but I put aside its descent and defeated the the extreme right in France I think this is the lesson for us all that uh when we are dealing with existential issues and and the issue in Palestine is existential and as I say I don't think it's just existential for the Palestinians existential for many other People we need to be able to create the

alliances that by the way I so in the demonstration in London when I joined another 1 million people you have the Muslim Community you had the left you had the Liberals all United under this one issue and of course they have they have their own disagreements on some uh issues which I don't underrate and don't uh regard as unimportant but they knew the demonstration was a manifestation of what is important and what is less Important right now and and I think that that kind of alliances that work so well in the solidarity movement in the

streets should now be part of the action uh in politics from above as well in order to be able to to deal with this because with these kinds of Alliance you will find out and that's my assessment that populism Fascism and right extreme right-wing politics are not as attractive as we believe it is because they they just enter a void that Someone else can still F so I think there's a lot of thinking to be done about how do we deal with the essence of politics and what is the new role of the left in

turning the struggle against the essence of politics into a more effective struggle that would have also of course implication for the situation in Palestine have say surprisingly heartening I was expecting that and but also full of nuance full of wisdom Obviously your encyclopedic knowledge of this whole area shines through as ever and and it's been such a such an honor I know you know I I can anticipate the responses we get people will be sort of appreciative of what you have to say and provocative in the best possible way as well uh so for those

who are watching please do share this video press like press subscribe leave your comments good for the algorithm more people watch and engage and listen which is the point of Course and bit honestly such an honor and thanks thanks as ever for your incredibly thank you I I really enjoyed this conversation thank you very much for having me