Bob "Ninja" Poras - CIA / Delta Force Operator | SRS #045 (Part 1)

Hey everybody we got a two-part series for you coming this one this is the first one ever this one's about my friend call sign ninja he was a former Delta operator did an entire career over at the US Army most of which was in Special Operations and then he did another career at CIA where I met ninja ninja was my boss over there second part of this series is something like you all have never Seen before and will probably never get the opportunity to witness again it's an inside look at some of the events that

went on at CIA when myself and ninja were both working over there it's a conversation between two former operators on some very serious significant events that happen during our time there I think you guys are really going to appreciate and get a lot out of that it's probably never going to happen again on any other Channel getting it right here and I just want to say thank you thank you for being here this whole time we've done a lot of different interviews you guys have stuck around no matter how much I change it up and

I just want to say I love you and I appreciate you guys for that if you like this Channel please like comment and subscribe and if you're Feeling extra generous sign up for the Sean Ryan Show newsletter it's in the link and go over to iTunes and Spotify and leave us a review love you all enjoy the show see you next week [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] Ninja welcome to the show man thank you thanks for having me we've been trying to get this one going for a minute yeah and uh finally got

your retirement out of the agency congratulations thank you how's it feel being a dirty civilian great yeah [Laughter] [ __ ] amazing yeah absolutely yeah but um so retired from army primarily Special Forces Special Operations all The way up to the tier one unit transitioned over to Contracting then another full career over at CIA freshly retired congratulations now you're getting into the training game and uh and you have a new affiliation with Glock right yep that's uh that's Penn interview coming up in another month or so and October time frame we'll see how that works

out but that's looking great right now yeah that's I love Glock man yeah you know all these Other companies they spend all this money and they buy all the influencers and and [ __ ] Glock they just don't need it yeah their [ __ ] just works it just works yeah all the time not as reliable as it can get right yeah that's that's the claim to fame and that's what they're sticking to stick with the basics right yeah that's cool man I I love that company yeah I'm glad he found a way to weasel

here you're not Alone with that company because there's a lot of Glocks on the street yeah that's very true so getting into the training game what do you have anything specific that you're wanting to train people and there's so many different aspects of the training World there is um so everything from uh you know law enforcement military tactics those kind of things as well but Also for the uh the rest of the population that has guns just knows wants to know how to how to use it more effectively uh uh going to the market just

shopping just living their lives with the gun how do you do that without being conspicuous or uh you know those kind of things just concealed carry stuff but being comfortable with it and what exactly how do you do it uh on body carry off body carry in handbags for women uh in Backpacks what what well however they want to do it uh women with kids who are youngins who have other bags right uh those kind of things how do I do this if that's what they want to do if that's their situation tailor that training

to however their situation is uh one with the child in a diaper bag what do you do right if that person wants to carry a gun uh for the for uh self-defense Um what do you do for carrying groceries going to the grocery store in a mall or any number of places how do you do that effectively so a lot of a lot of situational yep type stuff like real situational stuff so everybody not in the world where we came from it's all tactical and you're Tech geared out from head to toe and it's a

direct action kind of thing but now everyday life and I think that's uh you know they need some education as Well um and then confidence in using their their their weapons whatever they plan on bringing yeah I mean I think you're the perfect guy for that especially coming from CIA you know with a lot of that job you know that we did is not full-long assault kick it indoors doing DA's a lot of it is permissive environments blending in having a head on a swivel that kind of stuff Do you have like a certain client

that do you have like a picture perfect client that you're trying to hit or whoever no yeah not really I it so uh you know that's that's probably uh you know one of the things on marketing kind of stuff right who do I who would I Target but really it's how do you appeal to anyone who wants to use their weapon effectively uh pistol size different whatever they have Um how to carry it effective how to be more efficient with whatever it is they have which gives them more confidence to do whatever it is they're

doing just to live their daily lives yeah um because that is a transition for some folks um cumbersome they don't have to wear special clothing you know so it's that's what I want to do like dispel a lot of the myths that everybody has and that might have them reluctant to carry Right now um they have a gun but they don't want to carry it because they have to get different they think they have to get different clothing or anything like that um maybe maybe not so that's that's kind of whoever wants to do that

uh the younger folks the older folks if they want to carry a gun and be effective with it for their personal self-defense um how to do that um women with kids you know uh baby one And a toddler on another hand you know what are they going to do and if that's their situation and that person wants to carry a gun for for self-defense um all those other folks uh not all no camouflage no you know multi-cam stuff no helmets with nods none of that stuff yeah but also you know some of that too um

because I know all about that as well but now for the everyday citizen who carries uh firearm how to how can it be done more effectively yeah what do you Think the biggest demand is on the training Market you think it's Le nods helmets well there is always that or do you think it's everyday people with because I mean crime is it's skyrocketing yeah and that's what I think um that's where I think a market is but uh they don't re they don't tend to reach out because they're seeing all the stuff When they start

looking at things on websites it's all tactical gear it's all law enforcement military uh no open enrollment courses unless it's a basic uh NRA course or a basic Firearms course or something like that um and I get it there's a lot of safety concerns with you know pulling a gun from a purse pulling a gun from a handbag pulling the gun from undergarments and all that kind of stuff but that's that's the trick right set up An environment where it's going to be safe for them to do that so it's not a big bulk it's

not everybody online you know shooting a drill at a unidirectional range um but the best set them up for Success right this is the environment you're going to be in so set them up for that environment they're going to be in um and it's going to be safe for them it's going to be safe for everybody else on the Range so it's not a lot of people Might be a smaller even an individual that wants to know how to do that more effectively um and then open up the to the best that you can or

the best that I can a 360 degree scenario for them so they can do it effectively efficiently at 360 degree threat you know situational awareness and then present them you know a threat Target in their in their particular environment um something they could do it safely so And so that build confidence in their ability to do that um just like any other firearms training and a lot of things it's it's repetitions get the Reps in practice practice um and the more you do it the better you get and the more you do it the less

you want to do it right yeah um it's a it's a firearm is a last resort thing so what are the things also leading up to that point that's that's The other thing yeah you know that conversation we had down downstairs earlier where you were talking about you went to I don't want to mention any names or locations but you went to a major metropolitan area you had a private client and you were talking about mindset training that brought them into a rough neighborhood we'll just call it a rough neighborhood and uh do you want

to talk I mean I don't know anybody That's doing that and that's probably the single I mean most informative reality check that you can give somebody is to put them in a situation like that and be like what are you gonna do yeah so uh very fortunate that this this person had access to a home that was similar to theirs so they were in a real estate business and they had a vacant home that we could use for training and it was with real Guns no ammo uh dry fire but it was how how to

walk around their house what are the what are the dead spots in their house uh what what should I be concerned about how how can I effectively and it had Furniture in it um how can I move around my own house uh efficiently and effectively so and I went through the whole thing about your house and a lot of people don't know their house to the extent that they think they know uh lights are out and It's dark and now walk around your house with the lights out um then what do you have as a

fire if it's a firearm then what do you have on your your firearm to be able to use the sights iron sights illuminate sights uh Red Dot sights whatever it is um and I had several for them to to look at in their scenario how to effectively move toward a threat inside of a confined space like a home Um a lot of the things that I I was able to uh convey and display for this uh this client was it's not always you know a straight line from point A to point B it's the best

way to go it's like you know a circumvented route to open up the their View and stay away from the threat as much as possible yeah you don't have to always close a threat that was that was the main theme that person Thought is that have to close the threat with that person it's like well you have a sidearm it's plenty distance that side armor can reach that distance so that's the distance you're working with and that's what I was able to convey to that person which then kept them a little bit more calm because

um I was a little bit of anxiety to think about I got to close the threat or close the distance with the threat that Somebody's in my house I don't know who it is and now I have to close a distance with that person so that was another thing uh they initially thought and I gave them another Avenue to stay away keep distance and still um move through the house and clear it you know make sure it was safe can we can we paint a scenario to that real quick because I don't think a lot

of people listening are going to understand What you're saying so let's let's bring it into like a hallway scenario where maybe you're peering out of a broom and I'll let you explain it but you don't all when it comes to closing the distance you you don't always have to do that and I'd like you to explain a little bit more on on why yeah um so the this person had a two-story home um all the live of the bedrooms were Upstairs and this scenario was late at night everybody's in bed asleep and this person uh

they have a house a home invasion situation he wanted to know one should he carry a gun what what are the processes he needs to go through so initially it was planning uh planning and describing to his family members he had three children I believe um and his wife and he just telling them so I uh how to convey to them that if this happens if somebody comes to the House at night and it's not one of us and this is what we're faced with this is what I want you to do uh whether it's

stay in a room he had a room that was because he was Consolidated two of the kids were in one room one kid goes the older kid was gonna go with the the other two kids hunker down there wife is going to go over there and then get accountability so that was the first thing right tell tell the family what to do Um and that was free in his mind of okay now I got to deal with the threat my family knows what to do they've rehearsed it they've gone through it over and over um

and that was that that was the first step and then uh what he so if they're on the second floor does he even have to go downstairs um and what should he do first right well 9-1-1 he's in the states so that's the first thing you do 9-1-1 and then he Said well that that ties up my hand with the phone now I said well just turn it on just call make the call put it on speaker and if you have a pocket put it in a pocket and just leave it there leave your phone

on and uh talk through the speaker or don't even worry about the speaker if it's too much just leave it on they can hear you and they can and somebody's rolling that was the big thing get somebody rolling uh law enforcement to your to your location And then speak openly like you're speaking into the phone you don't have to have it up to your head or have earbuds in or anything like that just speak normal language or speak softly into it if you don't want to conceal your or disclose your location um but accountability of

your folks you know 9-1-1 accountability of your family they're okay and now what so I went from uh top of the stairway this could be your limit of Advance this is going to Be as far as you go and you make the decision whether you need to go downstairs or not um what are what are the things that you need to be concerned about if you're if you want to go downstairs or not you can stay there and defend your second floor because they have to come up if there's a threat they have to come

up and if that's what they want to do you're there to meet them right and take care of the threat But why go downstairs to begin with yeah so that was the first that was like one one major decision point and because he originally thought I got to go down there and address the threat it's like no they're down there and you're you already know your family's safe then what else do you need to do the cops are coming whenever they come and this particular place it was a it was a fairly lengthy response time

because of Where they were at and the police department in the area and all that stuff um and then all the other things that are going on now um so what's the priority you don't know their priority on the call out on who they're sending when they're sending them but you made the call somebody's coming so you could just hold your ground right there um then we went through okay now he's if He has to go downstairs how would he move downstairs so uh so best case hold your ground right there the police are coming

my family's safe that's all I need to do let whoever it is downstairs do whatever they're doing and leave if that's the case um your family safe that's all you're concerned about stuff is stuff and if you're concerned about something downstairs if somebody's downstairs one Of your family members or you have guests that are in a guest bedroom downstairs what she had um then okay that's the reason to go check on your guests but also knowing their sleep habits do they get up in the middle of the night and go get a drink of water

or have to go to the bathroom at night you know no if you have guests in your home know that you know their sleep habits um because that could be all it is Um and if it's my decision if their decision was to go downstairs then how do you go downstairs at night when the lights are out without turning all the lights on or turn the lights on you know that's another decision they have to make um you know it's it's really Common Sense stuff but unless you go through it you know step by step

and then have them ask questions Um and I posed all the questions that he asked back on him right I was like oh yeah well what would you do you're in the situation right now with that situation you just described to me what would you logically do you don't have to be difficult you don't have to refer to any movies that you've seen what would you do uh you know what makes sense to you um and then just just act on it uh trust Your instincts all those things um you could be he could be

scared you know there could be a little fear going on all right well that's normal yeah that was one thing I told him I was like well that's going to be normal um your kid might be yelling you know how how are you know they bet they're going to be concerned about your safety so consider that uh maybe you're still within eyesight of your family and your concerned family members for you Um and if you disappear downstairs then now they're more concerned now you have other issues to worry about so it's not always go to

guns and direct action you know Commando raid your house yeah and clear it um maybe probably not um if you have this the the house to enable those kind of things um accountability of your people um and then that's it wait for the police to arrive but you're saying that A lot of people a lot of a lot of trainers don't talk about that enough I don't think and um but yeah probably not and I haven't heard a whole lot of that um because it's usually on a flat range and they're discussing these things without

being in an actual facility that makes sense to people um a real kitchen counter that they have to walk around that creates dead space for them you know or it's on a range Where they create these false uh floor plans right it's not their floor plan but um and that's really it most of the stuff I was describing to this guy is know your house make your house negotiable in the dark and then do it have your kids do it have your in case you have to run out even in emergencies um and that's the

one thing I describe to him it's not always a like a physical threat or a home invasion kind of thing but this applies to uh natural disaster Stuff um fires if they're in Hurricane places Tornado Alley or any of these other places if your family has to get out maneuver around your house know your house so you could do that without the lights um and that so that was another thing that kind of calmed him down to like the scenario that he was describing it was a threat scenario that I have to get My sidearm

and maybe use it um but I said well this this scenario this plan can go across the board for any emergency um so you don't have to tell your kids in case somebody comes in here with a gun and there's gunfire then this is what we're going to do it's if you have a fire hurricane tornado natural disaster floods this is what we're gonna do um and it's not I've heard from folks It's like it's uh they don't want to live in fear and go through these contingencies with fear in mind like I'm afraid of

something and I'm gonna have a contingency for that but it's it's just preparedness yeah um and that was another thing he was uh I think his wife mentioned that like I don't want to live my life in fear waiting for this happen I was like well it's preparedness if you did this enough Times repetition practice and practice and practice it's going to come to you in any emergency that happens it's not always a fire fight yeah I thought it was a gun fight I thought it was a bad guy with a gun it's all these

other things and then that made sense to them um calm down okay and then it came then then it was uh easier for them to like uh you know take it all in and say okay this means something more than just that one incident this damn scenario Um that was great I had a great time doing it they had a great response afterwards um let's talk about what you did in the city with them because that that kind of training is extremely unique nobody's doing that yeah that was a situational awareness thing so from operational

activity you know in either The agency or my previous life in the military it's situational awareness how to become aware without being paranoid and afraid of things but just being aware of uh things that happen in the area um read the news articles listen to the crime reports and all that stuff and be aware of those things first of all that's your homework that's just living in anywhere um it's getting it's worse in some Places than others um but be aware of those whether it's a home invasion or on the street crime pickpocket or whatever

it is um there's a lot of that stuff going on now so they just have to do their homework and then not deny that it's happening that's the mindset thing yeah be aware that it is happening and another thing is well it'll never happen to me right so then changing their minds Like okay well just put yourself in a mindset of okay well what if it does then what would you do um Common Sense things um so that's regular situation where it's look looking in uh like storefront glass to look behind you so you don't

make make it weird for themselves or you to look around like you're paranoid like is somebody following me yeah um but just to do those simple little things look in a Storefront window and use the glass as a mirror behind you to see if anybody's following you and has picked you out as a Target um and it's good it's those kind of things walk into a store see who comes into the store with you uh if they look like they're in they need to be in that store then um then fine but if they look

like they don't need to be in the store that you're in uh that doesn't look like They're kind of uh storefront that they're usually frequent then okay maybe that's something you need to be concerned about yeah um you know kids with babies go into a a small kids store you know with infant toddler clothing and baby clothes and if a person that looks like they don't need to be they don't belong there those those should be you know indicators of Maybe they're up to something uh no good [Music] um yeah it's all those things um

uh people want wanting the car thefts and they're smart they wait for you to go to your car and open the car for them right so before you go to your car you know what do you look at in a parking lot when you're walking to your car where do you have your car keys all that kind of stuff before you leave an Establishment to go to your car what do you what do you have in your hands um your car keys uh flashlight if it's dark if there's something on your keychain that you can

have a light with um noise makers whistles whatever it is uh and be aware of your environment um where's your phone uh did you just for the folks that carry purses and Handbags is it just thrown in in there and you got to dig for it or is it somewhere where you know stick your hand In it pull it out and there's your phone 911. um all those things basic stuff but basic Common Sense stuff but often overlooked and uh unfortunately there's bad guys out there waiting for those people who are not paying attention yeah

to take your stuff to take your cars to take you know all that stuff what do you think the biggest mistake is that civilians make when it comes to mindset Or situational awareness think it can't happen to them yeah yeah and uh and story after story after Story and that's some homework even folks can can do on their their own um and that's exactly what they say uh afterwards somewhere in their narratives afterwards when they're telling their story they'll say I just never thought it could happen to me damn it's it's a Pretty common theme

when they tell the story after the fact whether that's um anything a physical confrontation something was stolen from them or a car theft or something like that so they never prepared for it um and it could be just like here you go yeah yeah goodbye you know I don't need to fight you right now go ahead and take my stuff uh give me my phone give me my gun and take the rest of it right um or whatever it is whatever they come Up with as a plan but they're prepared for it and that's what

happens yeah well we'll link all your uh all your websites Social Media stuff on the bottom so anybody that wants to get trained up can contact you sure and let's get into your backstory now but first oh God yep everybody gets a gift what are we talking gummies holy [ __ ] you you made gummies be the only one to ever guess because I've seen your show And yes that's right gummies legal in all 50 states made here in the USA nice if you want the other kind you're gonna have to get them somewhere else

thank you sir you're welcome now it's official now it's official getting into the the meat and potatoes of everything but um so phenomenal career in the military phenomenal career at CIA retired from both I don't know if you know this you know but I mean we worked at the same Department over at CIA and you are probably actually without a doubt I would say the most well-respected individual in that department so it's just a real honor to have you on this show and um I still remember the first time we we were at the same

location and and the rumors flying around about you and and uh all positive moving into some of those later but but I just wanted to say That I I don't know if anybody's ever told you that but yes you're definitely one of them but thank you I appreciate it you're welcome I was just doing my job yeah well you did a damn good job so I was proud to work with you I know everybody else was too but um so let's let's start with childhood where'd you grow up yeah uh born and raised in Southern

California so born in Palm Springs area And then um most of my life in the Los Angeles area the San Fernando Valley specifically um went to school there uh and then ultimately all my childhood until I left to the Army was in the San Fernando Valley in LA parents still together no so my mother died when I was young she died of cancer when I was 10. um so my dad was a single parent Uh before that became a cool thing to do um so he raised me and my five sisters uh for most of

our lives so I was 10 I have two sisters older than me uh two sisters younger than me um he had a lot of help so uh all my family out there a big Mexican family they're all in Los Angeles most of them um so Aunts Uncles uh cousins they all helped out when they could um yeah so it was uh It was fun it was a good challenge I thought I had a great childhood um I do not remember any bad times uh except for that obviously losing my mom at a young age I

was um so before that there was an uncle of mine who died probably three years before that so initial you know how do you deal with loss right as a 10 year old and then with my uncle it's younger than that but really as a seven-year-old Kid you don't really Clue Into what's going on uh tan fully aware that my mom had died of cancer um so that was a it was a huge hurdle for a lot of us um uh and then my dad of course uh more traditional uh you know Mexican background family

history um and now he's a single dad uh so that was that was a bit much plus he's still working and all these other things so Dealt with a lot of those things did you probably hear more commonly uh you know recently but uh back then nobody that I knew had a single single parent family uh none of the not the kids none of the neighbors none of the kids I hung around with school damn talk about a different time period yeah you know yeah [ __ ] that's everywhere today I know right and then

it was you know that's why I say before it was cool uh he is doing it and he did it yeah did a Good job um I thought he was great uh all the things all the motivations you know how to be a man you know uh he did it step by step never pushed me into the military um he was you know very loving caring whatever whatever all of us did me or my sisters did um very supportive uh if whatever it is we wanted to do and he supported whatever it is that was

Um never had the military in mind so have a pretty so he was a former Marine uh have several of this for my family uh so at Southern California that's the thing to do either Navy or Marines oh good um makes sense yeah um a lot of my cousins a lot of my uncles uh Marines or navy I don't recall anybody that joined the army except for my oldest sister she Joined the army before I did uh she's probably five years older than I was um never had a clue about the army or the military

other than I knew relatives were in um played Army as a kid ran around with all the you know the neighborhood kids playing army and stuff like that but I wasn't thinking this is what I want to do for the rest of my life um So I grew up a younger childhood so in the 60s so in late 60s we're talking you know the Vietnam War area uh era uh a neighbor across the street and so that's I'm not watching the news and TV's not a big thing you know that was also back when um

came home from school do your homework and you got you went outside to play you didn't sit in and watch TV he didn't play video games or anything like that so go outside and play a lot of Things was either you know riding bikes you know making jumps on bikes and skateboards and all those you know kid stuff and then play an army right um there was a guy across the street uh he was uh he's a Vietnam vet and I didn't know anything about that but I guess in his attempt to get rid of

that out of his life he was always throwing away his uniforms his helmets and stuff like that we thought it was cool we'd go rummage through the trash and grab his His camo his camo uniforms and his helmets and stuff like that running around the neighborhood and you know he threw away everything I wish I would have kept it because all of his medals all that stuff at one point yeah he was flushed his whole life full of that stuff um because I do remember him before he went so he was probably 18 19 like

all of them were at The time when he went to Vietnam I remember him before that or I don't I never saw him after he came back other than his thrown away his stuff um and we took his stuff and you know ran around the neighborhood like we were army guys yeah um yeah that was just fun stuff we haven't dug tunnels in my backyard because we heard there was tunnels in Vietnam right Uh dug in the ground uh you know wasn't a big favorite of my dads and the neighbors that we were digging tunnels

in the backyard but we did it you know um yeah it was all just for fun just kids having fun that's awesome yeah so what what got you interested in in the army other than digging tunnels in the backyard well yeah and digging through the trash so and I saw the movie so it Was the nothing motivating me like the like that's what I want to do like so whenever 1969 or whatever I was still a kid uh whenever the movie The Green Beret comes out I watched all the John Wayne West westerns the green

movie The Green Beret I thought it was the coolest stuff ever but never thought yeah that's what I want to do I just thought it was yeah that's cool somebody's gonna you know that's good those guys are badass Um that would be cool uh but never thought I was ever gonna do that um and then it was just uh graduate high school didn't have the grades to go to college because it was a whole thing about you know what am I going to do even in high school it's like okay I'll play football I'll do

that it's like everybody else that's the thing to do yeah so I can't play football but it wasn't really so Into it that I got so into it that I really got good at it enough to like this is what I want to do in my life um so I did all that stuff uh in high school it wasn't really a significant thing it wasn't wasn't a bad student but I really wasn't also motivated to be a great student to go on to college and do things with that um got out uh graduated um well

I did no normal work during the Summers during High School uh summer summer jobs and stuff like that so I'm now able to have uh you know summer jobs and actually contribute to the uh you know helping raise my smallest uh sister um provide some stuff buy some groceries and stuff like that not that I had to uh my dad was doing just fine but uh those were some of the things that he taught me to do it's like you know be responsible and do those kind of things And don't spend all your money on

you know kids stuff and so yeah I helped out doing that so it was like you know buying groceries or buying uh my sister clothes or something like that you know shoes for you know before she goes back to school again you know all those kind of things started all that stuff so it was kind of you know being responsible early right and I wasn't ever forced to do it I wasn't ever told to do it it was just like Kind of instilled in me this is what you do as you know uh this is

this is manhood um sounds good I was that was a great example my dad was really good at that um discipline um and it wasn't like a heavy-handed discipline thing you know if you screwed up you were accountable for it he held you accountable for things that you did wrong and right right uh reward you did good things and then uh a pickleball Punishment or just taking things away it really is all they did um if you did things bad so you know kind of be responsible be responsible for yourself and for me it was

be responsible for um my younger sisters but um it was also since I had two older sisters and I had one that was old enough to be in the same middle school and Senior High School at the same time and so his thing was you Know you don't ever let anything happen to your sisters right so that for me okay it's easy for my little sisters my younger sisters because I'm bigger than all the her yeah the boys that are harassing them but for the boys that were older than me uh you know I got

so they're huge you know and they're jocks so they're they're they're bigger than me and they're two or three years older than me and so it was one of those Things like you know I'm standing standing up to these big guys like don't mess with my sister I'm looking up at him like yeah tough guy giving him the stink eye right and there's this this guy's like oh he's stuck that's so cute but I was like that's what my dad told me to do right I'm responsible for him so bow up on these big guys

right I never had to do anything because that was enough you know they got it um and my sister older sisters were Always like uh you know build me up like uh don't make me get my brother right and I'm a little guy right yeah I'm a freshman in high school and talking to these seniors right and uh they're like okay yeah whatever bring your brother on here Here Comes little Bobby blown up on him oh my God you know um yeah they were all that was all cool I never had to do anything you

know with that just that was enough for them to you know get the respect like okay good For you man you're doing the right thing um and I even saw the kids and they were talking about uh the military I saw the kids in Roxy right I didn't that didn't excite me either saw the guys and I thought the Marines that were there in their Blues obviously it's like those are some cool uniforms but I never thought that's what I'm gonna do uh did you have any idea what you wanted to do nope nope just

lost yeah so uh I I got out Went to went to work for a a toy uh store um and it was a good thing uh so they put me in the manager training uh program and so this toy store it's a pretty big one it's not so much anymore but um you had to work all all the departments so as a as a young kid at high school they put me in the doll section to cut my teeth as a manager I know nothing About dolls but that was the point right uh put me

in my you know or take me out of my comfort zone and put me in the doll section and see how see how I work out um so I got to know everything about dolls doll houses and Susie Bake Oven things and all these things that I have no idea worked out for me because my little sister liked this stuff so I got to take it home and you know free samples I get to take everything home And she loved it um but no it was that didn't seem like so looking at the managers that

were there and that was like the point to get to that that point in this toy store be a senior manager a general manager and all these other things sales manager and all these other things and I saw the guys that were mentoring me I was like I don't know if that's what I want to do For the rest of my life so I started looking around and that's when I first entertained the idea of joining the military um everybody does the Marine Corps and navy so that's obviously where I went first and talked to

the Marine Recruiters the Navy recruiters and one thing my dad said was uh if that's what you want to do son I support you wholeheartedly just when you talk to these people Make sure you get something out of it when you get out that'll be applicable in the back in the civilian community and so he mentioned and he was a working at drove trucks for construction sites uh big big stuff big Earth moving stuff he's like see if you can do that because that's that's pretty good money in Southern California and there's always that going

on and so I asked her that uh so when I went to the marine recruiter and asked in that I want to be uh bulldozers and front-end loaders and big earth-moving stuff and those things and the Marine Corps has engineers and the Navy has the Seabees and I knew that and I said this is what I want to do and they said well this is what the Marines right this is what we'll do for you we'll make your Marine if and then I got to got the feeling of well if this is a if this

is what we want you to do then You'll go be an engineer right and so I was just thinking ah he's not saying exactly what I need to hear so I'm gonna go talk to the Navy because I know they have these CB guys that do engineering work and uh because guess where I saw that on the movie The Green Berets right and the Seabees Drive bulldozers and all this stuff let me go see what they have to say and they weren't giving me a very you know warm and fuzzy about doing that Exactly and

they you know take the ASVAB and all these other things first and see where I score well or score on these things and and we'll see where you go from there and then and then I had this wasn't real comfortable on committing to either one of those so I go to the Air Force and see what they have um and they didn't have anything they do have that but uh something about the Air Force too this just wasn't wasn't tripping my trigger and connecting now yeah and so let's go look at the Army and uh

go talk to the army guy talk to the engineering stuff and he's like he's like absolutely because we have the engineers and he's getting this video and back then VHS videos yeah he's like he gets this video he's he's gonna let me watch it in this room and I'm looking around the walls and I see all these Um it's Green Beret back in back then they had this recruiting publisher for special forces and it was a it was a guy waist deep in the swamp with a rucksack and a 120 rope on his you know

on his shoulders and Green Beret and he's sure it looks cool going through the swamp and I was like what's that I was like I want to do that I was like that's that Green Beret stuff like from the movie yeah it's like that sounds cool and then I saw you know these paratrooper uh Recruiting posters you know um Eight Second Airborne stuff and they're jumping out of planes and it's like how about that I'd say that looks cool that's like that's what I want to do and these dudes in this tank I was like

I want to shoot tanks too I want to drive tanks right he's like well go your jets I'll give you some videos to watch and see what you see what interests you best um and we'll take I'll set you up for The take test the aspap and all this other stuff and see where you where you fall and a bunch of infantry stuff posters um and it was BL you can be was the slogan at the time I remember that yeah and one of the commercials the only commercial I ever remember seeing about that well

there's two of them one was the 82nd Airborne they're on a drop zone and they have a cup of coffee and it's good morning first art right and uh and I saw that one and then um there's a ranger who's coming off a plane on leave he's got his dress Greens on and his Black Beret because that was the only people wearing blackberries at the time and he's getting off the the plane and he's just happy to be home he meets his what looks like his parents and all that stuff like that that's cool I

want to do that so there was all these things that I wanted to do in the Army He's like this is it this is gonna be for me and then I said about this engineer stuff he gives me that I was like that's exactly what my dad's talking about surviving Earth moving equipment and in the in the Army you do uh roads and airfields and stuff like that um and that's what I had in mind and they said well we'll take a test and and see Where you fall it's like yeah but if I could

do that and all this stuff too Drive tanks jump out of planes screen bright stuff Ranger this that all this all that do you guys have a sampler platter all right yeah and So eventually I go take the test and he's like well forget all this like all the stuff that I thought was cool forget all this um because the engineering uh you needed you know Of all of those I think other than and you couldn't just join SF back then off the street you had to join the Army first and then your second tour

you could join Special Forces and all that stuff um they weren't like you have today like Ranger contracts were off the street you can go to Battalion you went in the Infantry and then from Fort Benning you were offered opportunities to go in those directions I didn't know all that Stuff um so it's like one of the things that you you'll be you'll be a grunt new year new you except not much has changed right you have a ton of energy you're all about getting healthy and getting more energy but a lot of you are

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you get that new you you're dreaming of visit hvmn.com and use promo code Sean at checkout to save 20 these statements and products have not been evaluated by the FDA this product are not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease or condition and then at one point the I'm not aware of you'll get opportunities to do those kind of things so that wasn't that wasn't what it is Today you get a specific contract to go to specific places um you just sign a contract generally speaking and then you get offered opportunities in this

mystical magical 4187 this DA form 4187 to apply for other things that doesn't hardly ever work come to find out I come to find that out when I join um but I scored high enough uh to form a recruiting perspective apparently to Don't you don't want to go infantry you don't want to jump out of planes you don't want to do the tank stuff and you can't join SF until you get in the military get in the army first um but you scored high enough and this engineering thing you mentioned is all about you it's

like we can do that so that's what I did I was like and then he says as a recruiter usually would you could do all that other stuff later on once you get In yeah but get get all your engineer stuff done uh you know your dad wants you to do this you got a job blocked on when you get out um and then once you get in a year or two when you get to your first Duty station that's what he said put in this form 4187 to do any of these other things that

you want to do if that never worked out but I got my engineering thing so I actually like that job um what year is this what year did you Join this is 81. 81 yep um I I loved it uh my first Duty station I didn't know anything about the army army life um other than what my sister told me um and she was uh somewhere in the medical field she was a medic or something like that she's in Germany she loved it and that was her advice she's like whatever you do get to Europe

you're gonna love it Um and my first Studio station was at Fort Meade Maryland not not on the wrong side of the pond in Europe yeah um I didn't know I just signed up things and started hacking off signatures and uh initials on things and I ended up at Fort Meade Maryland um but learned the whole engineering stuff all the Earth moving equipment I did all that stuff there we were on it was a It was like a it's different from the Army in the sense that it's almost like a it's you're going to work

like a construction site so you have typical stuff like morning formations for PT and more information for accountability but then you went to work um we had a road crew Fort Meade snows every once in a while so Road clearing teams uh stuff like that and it was it Was like just a regular job um not so much a traditional structured military thing other than the you know formations and stuff like that but um everything else was just like going to work you put on overalls you got in your equipment you did your job push

dirt around you know uh spread asphalt and just like going to work and I thought that was perfect and I I liked it Um then I started to get in the itch to do more all these other things I wanted to do and that was the other thing my dad mentioned he said whatever you do don't get out because apparently he had some regrets that he didn't do all that he thought or all that he wanted to do before he got out of the Marine Corps so that's what he told me to do he said

um good do it it'd be great for you uh it's uh very respectful for our country I Mean yeah do your job you know do it do you know do your time for your country um I was like all right cool but uh when you get out don't get out with still wanting to do something don't leave something undone right get it done while you're there otherwise you're going to regret the rest of your life not haven't done it um and that's eventually how I end up doing spending a career in the Army I never

attended on a career Every four years it was like well what else do I want to do well I wanted to jump out of planes let me put in let me see if I can get jumping out of planes so I ended up at Fort Bragg ended up at Fort Benning go to jump school end up Fort Brag I'm in the 82nd and all that kind of stuff um you know and then that time and and it's like what do you do well once you're at Fort Bragg you get exposed to a lot of Other

things right because then you see Green Berets running around with their Green Berets and all this other stuff and then you get that exposure so then I get that itch to do all these other things hold on what did you do in the 82nd I was still an engineer okay so um this this uh this this itch I had so my first duty at Duty station Fort Meade that unit gets sent Up to Fort Drum which is now going to go do before 10th mountain gets activated and they get deployed or assigned there and it's

active um we're going there as Engineers to clear the ground make ranges clear the the the forest really clear the Trees of the construction sites that are going to be the barracks and ultimately the 10th Mountain division so this is early 80s um And I get this itch as I'm s and this goes forward well my time at Brag in 82nd and I I'm trying to get to First ranger battalion at Hunter Army Airfield down in Georgia right I'm on staff duty I'm I'm a runner I'm like private something and I'm just the guy sitting

at a desk all night I don't have nothing to do so I'm looking through this phone book and um at the time all the gung-ho magazines and all the Soldier of Fortune magazines Those are that's what you have in your your rooms and the staff duties and all your duty areas so I'm reading all these things and I was like dang I got to do this this Ranger stuff and this is before it was a regimen it's just the two battalions first Battalion in Georgia and second time in Washington State and I go down the

Army phone book at at the staff duty desk and I look up uh first 75th uh headquarters down at Hunter Army Airfield and look up the the office numbers and I called down there almost a PFC maybe at E3 um your answer a phone and it's another guy like me a PFC that's sitting at the phone at a desk doing nothing answers the phone this is this is in the middle of the night and I just said hey I want to be a ranger how do I do that and this guy another PFC he puts

me in touch with The NCO that's there and he said uh well where are you at I'm at and I was a camp drum at the time it was not even a fort yet um and he didn't know where that was I said well I'm in this unit I'm at Camp drum um and I want to know how to how to be a ranger and that's when it started he said call back in the morning and talk to the sergeant major And for all the folks again I watched this they know who sergeant major Carpenter

is he's a legend in first ranger battalion and regiment really and I talked to him in the morning and uh he took the call yes so it was a staff starting first talked to E7 and I'm not sure that they actually knew what to do with me on the phone and eventually talked to Sergeant Major Carpenter and He said well this is what you need to do he's uh go to jump School uh you've got to change your MOS because you don't have your MLS your military occupational especially Engineers we don't have engineers in in

the range of Battalion um so you have to do 11 Bravo somewhere some and he's describing how to do all this stuff but first thing first step first go to Drum school you can do that from any unit in the army um and then from there uh talk to the uh the ranger battalion uh recruiter who's going to be he gives me a building number and all the stuff near Rangers uh near Airborne School and do all that stuff um ultimately that doesn't work out so I go to jump school and where did they send

me to brag and I've been asked To me at the time there's an engineer company that's there that's in 82nd and I get there right after Grenada so Grenada happens um and a couple of the guys from the unit that I ended up going to were the ones that jumped in with the Rangers on the Airfield to to um to to get their head uh bulldozers and and construction equipment on the Airfield to block it from anybody Landing right so they jumped in Uh to get on the equipment to get it off the Airfield so

then the airline folks can come in and start you know that using the airstrip um so initially I thought that was kind of cool I was like well you got this is like you guys they just I got there when uh everybody was still gone from leave after Grenada so it was a ghost town uh when I got there and then I find out that uh two or three of the guys that were in The company that I was in were the ones that were that jumped in with the Airfield seizure team uh with the

ranger battalion to go clear the Airfield um and for them go to the bulldozers and all the construction equipment and get it off the Airfield so the airplanes can land um so I thought that was kind of cool but that's where I made the transition I worked with uh the 325th Infantry uh regiment uh They're at an 82nd to get cross-train so you can OJT for different Moses at the time my I wanted to get because sir major Carpenter said uh you have to get year 11 Bravo you have to be an 11 Bravo to

be here um so I cross-trained to do that um then the Army had different things in mind and they got rid of the OJT for MOS program and then I had to go To Benning to get my 11 Bravo Infantry designator and I was at E4 I think at the time and uh that was interesting so there is no break like the difference between basic training and advanced individual training AIT for grunts there's no real break you just go straight through the whole thing so where do you where do you start is my first thing

I already know how to March I don't know how to be a Soldier I'm already a a Corporal in the 82nd Airborne Division I already know how to do a lot of things so but where do you that was their dilemma where do we put these guys out there with another uh E4 from the 82nd he was a 11 Hotel uh a toe Gunner and he had to get a Lem Bravo because he's trying to do the same thing he's trying to get the range of retired um Well they eventually just let us get into

one of the one of the the groups that's going to their endocycle um infantry test out phase so last three or four weeks of their Advanced individual training and that worked out and uh somewhere along the lines I get I get my Infantry designator and the Army has bigger plans for me than what I wanted to do because I'm trying to get to Savannah Georgia But meanwhile there's a Third Battalion now that's at Benning it's a reg regiment all this thing has already happened and all this process of mine and uh I'm aware of this

so at the end of this when as soon as I get my 11 Bravo I thought I was going back to Fort Bragg first um check you know out process there and then go into one of the range of battalions Um volunteer for that and then make my way in the range Battalion that was what I had written down early on yeah in Midnight one o'clock in the morning whatever that was uh and then served major Carpenters telling me all these things to do um and I'm going step by step well at the end of

this infantry designator I get orders to uh Fort Ord California I don't even exactly where the hell is that exactly that's what I said and I said I'm thinking to myself that that I don't even know what that is who's who's there but I'm trying to get to Savannah Georgia and uh they started this whole seven uh seventh infantry division is reactivated huge history which ends up pretty decent uh a decent assignment for me but um It's like it's this new cohort thing um and as an as a new uh E4 promotable they needed all

the younger infantry guys to go staff this new division there that's being reactivated in photocell it's in Monterey California never knew that before then wow yeah and it's uh I guess the only other thing that's out there is the defense languages shoot in Monterey well Fort Worth's there it's been there forever since it's got a World War II History and all this other stuff that's a training base back then and I never heard of it until then um and there is a whole [ __ ] show of things that happens after that because that's not

where I wanted to go so I literally walked across base and signed into the radio regiment headquarters um Which is a is interesting um interesting in the fact that so it was in the old it's not where it was it is now so when that when it the initial regiment headquarters um it was old Barracks uh three-story you know Barracks had a fence around it with the green screen you know around it and then there was a little buzzer at the gate if you rang the buzzer then whoever's sitting on duty at the desk will

uh ask who's there what do you want What's your business and all this other stuff and I ring this buzzer did the same thing that I did a couple years ago on the phone um ring the buzzer they come back and say uh what are your business and I said I want to be a ranger then I hear the short pause and then I hear the Electric magnetic Things release and I open the gate and come in and a specialist comes out And they're still wearing the black braids at the time so he comes out

puts his Black Beret on and uh he halts me at the bottom so there's steps to go up to the the building he helps me at the bottom of the steps and I I come to stop and go to parade rest and he's like what did you say you wanted I said I want to be a ranger uh I just came from this training company over here they got me orders to go here and But this is where I want to be and he said hold on a minute he goes back in and he gets

the staff starting to come out and staff start comes out and as he's fixing his Beret um he said what is it you want I said I want to be a ranger and I'm at parade rest yeah and uh he's like I wanna I said I want to be a ranger he's like you sure about that you sure you're in The right place I said Roger that start and he immediately told me to do push-ups and then I was doing the wrong push-ups because my feet weren't on the stairs or I wasn't elevated push-ups so

I was willing to do anything at that point so get my feet up on the steps I'm doing elevated push-ups I'm getting starting my smoke session and um he disappears I hear the doors closed Behind them out comes the starting first class and E7 comes out and he said uh get up here so I'm in the front Lane and rest facing down these steps doing push-ups and I'm already smoked I'm starting the shakes already he says get up here and so I start to stand up and get up here he's like no stand Lane and

rest and you walk up here on your hands and feet so I'm walking it's like so this is like this Apparently I asked for it this is what I'm getting I was just like super motivated I start walking up backwards I'm smoked and I finally get up to the top of the steps and um he said who who have you talked to and I and I mentioned sorry major Carpenter who had since moved on to I think um the second Infantry Division and another starting major capacity in Schofield Barracks in Hawaii So he was in

in the regiment anymore he left to do more bigger division star major stuff for or I'm not sure if his position probably division at second Infantry Division um but Arenas our major Carpenter and he's and he's the so he's got this E7 he's smoking me he's like you talked to Sergeant Major Carpenter and this is what he told you to do I said Roger that sorry and as I'm just still smoked him into front leader rest I take her he gives me a break I'm in the Diane cockroach position and I was talking to him

my legs and arms are shaking um the dying cockroach yeah yeah I haven't heard that one in a minute yeah and that was me for a minute longer than a minute um and it's just a smoke session um he goes to talk to you I don't remember now the names of this our major he talked to Uh uh everybody'll know the names are it's our major Guerrero he was there I'm pretty sure that's who he talked to I ran into him eventually um but they're just having me uh low crawling in the barracks up and

down the hallways and doing just ungodly you know just torture tests muscle failure anything um pull-up bar was already done I couldn't do any more pull-ups I couldn't do any More push-ups dying cockroach my legs since arms were already smoked but I was just doing anything and everything I'm low crawling everywhere um and people are walking around the other you know Rangers are walking around me stepping over me as I'm local and always because they know the deal um yeah they've been there done it and they eventually all right they eventually uh signed in so

I'm I'm signing into Ranger Regiment I was the happiest person I could ever be I was like yes I finally made it I get to go to uh the at the time it's the ranger indoctrination program that now regiments hosting and and doing there at headquarters at Benning um I'm an E4 I'm a Corporal so I have to go through the Rope rip and rope which uh range of rotation program Ranger indoctrination program one of them is For junior leaders okay going into ranger battalion the other one is for everybody's rippies that's what I call

rippies for introduction Price smoke session so I go through the whole smoke session um I go through the Rope course it's more of a junior leadership course uh not so much smoke sessions because everybody that's returning to range of baton also goes there um so ncos and officers that have gone To do their uh you know platoon time for certain times our major time Commander time you know whatever they had to do as an officer or enlisted guy um ncos and now they're coming back so they go through the road course get back into the

ranger program and mentality and all that stuff um Sops policies the whole thing so I go through both of those and probably the happiest I could have ever Been I made it right sorry major car that call that one midnight that's that's an I can't even believe it I was there I get then we're wearing jumbo fatigues at the time so starch jungle fatigues got my jungle boots on I got my Black Beret I was just I was happy I was just like this is this is what I wanted this whole time right um but

I can't go to town because I'm a corporal until I go to Ranger school so they start putting me as a standby Into Ranger school um and so they had the Morgan team at the time in Ranger school so that's like a week of just my obsession that's like you're just getting smoked for the whole week you know you do the whole Ranger Creed and anything that you fail at and there's a lot of that you get smoked there's a lot of running a lot of push-ups a lot of pull-ups uh the Darby Queen obstacle

course until you die Um if you ever heard the term kawalifying a little bit of that this is my favorite hazing story of all time Rangers are so [ __ ] creative but do you want to explain qualifying this is just hilarious grabbing the trunk of a tree upside down so hold on the old warmies the old army warmies were just like these group these Brown Brown what do you call them Barbie pants in a brown sweatshirt so you look like a little bear And uh I've somebody told me this and uh at the agency

who's a ranger and you're the first Ranger I've ever had on so but uh the way it was described to me is when they say go qualify you got to get down on all fours and run like a bear to the tree and climb in your in your little warmies and hang upside down on the tree until until they tell you that's enough good stuff man it's good stuff yes all that yeah it's yeah good times I Mean at the time it's just whatever it takes right you can't you can't smoke me you know this

because that's what you want to do right um and they make you growl you growl or even the Diane cockroach they tell you to say stupid things too like I'm a dying cockroach it's like whatever um yeah the duck walks oh yeah quack quack let me hear you all right crack whack Um yeah it's total smoke session um but so they do that I get into Ranger school finally um uh I mean this is this is this is a this is what I wanted this is exactly what I wanted there is nothing they could do

to me that would like dissuade me I can qualify it I can just okay you can't kill me and if I die then okay then I'm dead I won't know any difference Um so it was just what I wanted to do um there was nothing they could do I did everything they they wanted me to do and then some um you know never complained about it uh I went through so from the different phases then and Rangers score if you go to the you got Fort Benning for a while so you did the city week

well at the time he did The the Morgan team the harassment harassing week um then you did the city week and uh what's the city week it's less harassment but it's you're starting to get into the training so you're learning Communications uh patrolling small unit tactics and those kind of things a lot more the obstacle course um and then you go then at the time there was a desert phase a Florida phase and a mountain phase And each one is uh I don't I don't know what the I don't know about it but they're they're

TD wise uh so temporary duties right you have to be on TDY orders in order to be t y you have to have you have to be assigned somewhere so everybody that goes to Ranger school is assigned to the the ranger department and then you those are other tdys within a TDY right these are all the administrative things I have no idea About then and um but now I can't go TDY because I'm they're having difficulty with getting me TDY orders because I'm still on orders to go to the Fort Ord California right yeah and

but I'm assigned to regiment headquarters um I'm only assigned so that was the issue they were having I don't know any of this is going on I'm just waiting for another Ranger class so I go through morning team Uh City week I can't leave Benning class takes off and they go do a desert um so I wait for the next class to start uh the first time that happened I'm I'm waiting right there at Ranger school um I don't go back to regiment headquarters and hang out or anything I just wait for the next class

that's coming through and I'll just join them and then by the time we get to the uh the deployment to the desert I'll just Join them and jump in and drive in whatever uh with that class like at that point still don't have my orders so they pulled me aside and say we still can't we can't tdye the desert face onward um like okay so then they tell me to go wait at regiment headquarters wait for the next class we'll give you a call you don't have to do the PT test again you don't have

to we already know you're good Um uh you'll join the next class that comes through and that happened two or three more times um and I finally get to the point where I met a break now I was married two small kids and they're in Columbus Georgia in an apartment this whole time just waiting for me to get down with Ranger school which is getting prolonged yeah over time and what ended up happening Well ultimately what ends up happening I get assigned to head regiment headquarters which is fine um but my orders that were going

to Fort Ord California at the time were overriding everything that was the party of the army to to fill these the seventh infantry division with these slots right um so I was a no-show apparently I was I was a no-show and uh and what does that mean right I'm absent without leave Right I'm AWOL according to Fort Ord uh Personnel right [ __ ] I never signed in so from the time I graduated infantry School um I signed in fine you got did everything with regimen got smoked and everybody's fine with it regiment was fine

all all the folks that were there uh uh was he a first star under sergeant major Guerrero at the time who was there he was really fighting for me with Because that's infantry branch headquarters there at Fort Benning he was fighting for me he's like he wants to be here and we want him he's passed all the tests to be here and we're trying to get him a sign here permanently and scratch this other assignment and they couldn't do it so ultimately there's a three or four or five Ranger classes that get bumped and keep

going through the initial phases through and Um ultimately we get to a point where um I am almost oh as far as I know I'm ready to go I can go through the initial uh the first phase again and then to play with this class and start going to the desert go to Florida go to the mountains all that stuff other stuff it's been it's been hashed out at infantry headquarters um well I'll get to that point now there's a Christmas break now I get to The point where there's a Christmas break in Ranger school

so I go back I go home for the first time in a while um and then my wife at the time this says that they haven't had a paycheck in a while so I put in this thing [ __ ] I put in this thing for a pay inquiry and they're all fine with it Go regiment headquarters Personnel uh personal NCO he sets me up with everything he's like go get your go here ask given this form And you'll get your paycheck so I do that and um okay give me some money and uh I

go on my way right um Christmas break I go back before I go on Christmas break and there's not another direct deposit I was like well I'm getting ready to go sign back in the rain just go I'll finish Ranger school and I go back Personnel uh They give me the form again I go to the head I go to the the Finance in Fort Benning and I'm sitting at this pay cage just like I did before him this form and the Specialists sitting behind the counter said uh she looks at my stuff and she

uh looked at something and she said hold on a minute and she leaves goes back and there's this Captain comes out and looks at me I'm in starch jungle fatigues and I got Ranger scroll and my shaved head and you know spit shine jungle boots and um captains looks at me and looks at my name tag and looks down at some paperwork says uh uh Corporal porus is that how you say your name I think Roger that sir he's like hold on man sorry he goes to get a major and meanwhile while they're going to

get this major there's people in the finance building That are behind me and I recognize a lot of activity it's just a pay cage it's a finance section and it's Personnel I'll just go on there's MPS that come in and um oh and I noticed the MPS I was like okay I mean it makes sense it's a finance place and you know I guess they do Finance stuff you know whatever and they're standing behind me I was doing one of these things like what's that all about the major comes in and it comes Back to

the cage and said uh Corporal porus you're gonna have to go with these gentlemen um and I was like what just happened uh what happened and he explains to me as the MPS are behind me and one one of the guys grabs my like behind my arm right and he's like and one hand on my shoulder and you know he's getting custody of me and I was like I was like what's going on and uh major explains to me he's like well According to this um you're AWOL looked at him I looked at the MP

I was like do I look like an animal Soldier oh [ __ ] does this look like an a wall Soldier I was like he has and he looked at my you know shoulder and he's like so and he sees the regiment scroll and he's like and he said it's sarcastically smart ass he's like is that where is that where you you're Saying you're assigned it's like that's where I am aside oh all I need to do is get my money put it in the bank for my wife and kids to live on while I

go back to Ranger school and do my thing right and you know it's not it wasn't that simple apparently um MPS I go with the MPS to the MP station and um regiment headquarters uh starting Major two ncos that were with me and rip rope who know who I am and vouch for me they said nope he's got a no he's with us he's assigned to us he's not able he's assigned to us we have Monarch rolls and So eventually they get me out break me out of jail and but uh it was never resolved

so then I get into the admin um nightmare of uh trying to correct the admin paperwork Stuff and they couldn't uh regiment at the time didn't have the the poll to do that for me and probably wasn't worth doing it just for you know Corporal porous anyway so um they you know yeah that was that was I took that pretty hard because they said you have to go sign in at Fort Ord California holy [ __ ] after all that they still made you go over there yeah to get this like to Correct this um

go sign in we know your story just when you get there and sign in uh we'll take you back you're gonna have to do your time you know 18 months or whatever it is um but you know come back when you want to I'm just put in the paperwork um but we we can't we can't correct it um yeah oh that was disappointing um then go to Fort ordin sign in Start getting paychecks damn yeah no [ __ ] yeah oh that that really I mean I was part of the community for for a little

bit um but I think bad time so I was AWOL for I think over a year that's what they had me so all this whole time I'm doing Ranger stuff right I'm just living in the dream um I'm jumping into planes with everybody I'm going on these exercises That are out there I'm betting um yeah I was just it was I was having I was having a blast I was and it's like I made it right I got here right um and then and then that happened I was like pretty disappointed in like the Army

and everything at that point I was like wow that that was one of the times like oh this was it then if I can't do that then this is it yeah I can't even imagine Yeah that kind of sucked but it's minor setback I ended up you know taking troops um that was my thing I mean um you know E5 E6 I made while I was there I ended up going to Panama with the 7th Infantry Division in uh just cause um I was uh you know what were you guys doing down there uh well

uh seventh Infantry we did um we infilled for uh operation just cause into downtown Panama City so we shared the city with uh the 82nd Airborne and and normal petroleum direct action stuff raids and you know cool infantry stuff which is a lot of so as a leader in an infantry Squad as a well as a Corporal than a sergeant then a Staff Sergeant I have a squad Um I just love the lifestyle the Infantry grunt stuff and being a leader of grunts right um doing grunt stuff uh there you know puts my experience in

the 82nd at that point my experience with the ranger regiment at the time um so I just did the same thing right there which is not traditional because it's regular infantry stuff you don't Jump out of planes you're not sexy it's a straight leg infantry stuff um but I was always grabbing my guys you know hitting the woods get your rucksack let's go uh individual movement technique training you know smoke sessions with sandbags you should get Sam I learned that and uh and rip do do imts with sandbags you know pick up sandbags run one

two three I'm down you know I'm up they see me I'm down Um you know so everybody thought I was crazy for doing that but eventually um the you know of course they wind and complain you know we're going on why isn't anybody else out on a road march today and I was like well because they're not with they're not with me right they're no I'm not in Charge of them I'm in charge of you guys we're going marching um or we're doing imts or we're doing buddy carries you know down in the woods you

know up and down Hills this four door has Rolling Hills um so there's some pretty decent terrain to do all this kind of good stuff yeah and uh you know it I I was just you know as a as a Junior leader I loved that aspect Of it um having a team and then having a squad and then I had two guns gun teams attached to me for so at the time we had M60 machine guns and the infantry rifle squads and platoons um I just loved every minute of that um no one had a

maneuver you know my little element My Little Kingdom right in the Infantry world how to maneuver this in it and we got an opportunity to do that In Just Cause I just that was like a culmination exercise I couldn't ask for at a better time um and then all after that even in my Contracting days later on I kind of kind of resort to that on some of the things that um that's a lot to get you know if you're a leader to get troops you're you're troops to do things that they wouldn't naturally do

on their own you know under Stress Under Fire um and then they do it without question when you ask them to finally right and then so for me that was my my just cause experience right um I didn't have to coach him anymore I didn't have to say things twice I just barked out of command and they were moving and even in some cases they were doing it before I said anything because I knew that was coming Um so for me that was the best experience I could have had to to like validate a lot

of things that you know you don't ever know but when you're training to go to war or battle what are you really going to act and how your troops are really going to act um how many guys were you with or how many guys were you in charge of well typical infantry rifle platoon companies and stuff like that I had a Plus step Squad um and that was because well one reason for that when we went to just cause is because they they trusted me with that a maximum amount of troops so uh two fire

teams of uh four guys um plus two machine gun teams which is three guys per machine gun team um plus this up with any number of other Folks just on a on any in any particular raid to support uh that kind of stuff so the Battalion Commander at the time um great guy former SF guy he was doing his uh time in the Infantry uh ranks to do his arm major time uh allowed me asked for me specifically on a couple of things hey let let Armed Force do this because he's got his guys ready

to go and all this kind of so for me that was like It was huge I was like oh cool he's asked he's asked specifically that I do these things and not anybody else and I was like I don't know why but hell yeah let's do this thing yeah in a a neighbor of mine who was on a toe platoon they used to court on the areas that we'd go into for the raids and he was saying as as I'm marching you know they had Vehicles they had tow vehicles and they'd go cordon off this

area and here comes me and my guys marching into This area and I'd always say hi it's like hey man uh I want to say Jim what's his name um it's like hey Jim and he's he's a smoker he's and he's got his toe guys Cordon he's like he's like um I think when I call sign was Black Sheep at the time he's like Black Sheep why are you always the one he's you got here again it's like hell yeah man here we go again right just like the Infantry like running my you know song

It's like here we go again hey we're here might as well do this right yeah and then often the jungles we go into these little Shanty towns and disappear from his site but he's like man you were glutton for punishment I was like well you know as I'm walking past and I was like well so what it's all about man hell yeah dude well hey let's take a little break and then when we come back let's get into a little more specifics on what you were doing down in Panama Yeah sounds good I want to

give a big thank you out right now to all the vigilance Elite patrons out there that are watching the show right now just want to say thank you guys you are our top supporters and you're what makes this show actually happen if you're not on vigilance lead patreon I want to tell you a little bit about what's going on in there so we do a little bit of everything there's plenty of behind the Scenes content from the actual Sean Ryan Show on top of that basically what I do is I take a lot of the

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continue to watch the show that's fine too I appreciate it either way love you all let's get back to the show thank you This was totally different this was like I was dying but I didn't care about anything nothing I saw my head split into two I saw our waterfall several times I said okay I'm ready to do it again were you nervous again I was nervous again but I knew there was more and uh and it's not you don't know what else there is but you know that there's more Essentially what's happening is you're

entering this higher level of Consciousness that you've not experienced before and you don't want to come back and I just started yelling at the top of my lungs I was like go in there go in there get in and I knew what it was like to die [Music] all right so we're back from the break you're down in Panama operation just cause this is when we pulled Noriega out Correct yep so let's talk about some of the day-to-day operations you're doing down there yeah running grunts oh man that's awesome hey it's it's like the culmination

exercise live fire exercise you'd ever asked for right um with live Fire coming back and my first experience with that and as well my my guys um a lot of good stuff a lot of good Lessons Learned uh for me personally Um and now there's this uh it's just it was an incredible experience I thought um did you understand the mission that was going on down there before you went I did yeah so we were down there as an organization uh that summer prior to that okay so we were escorting the the convoys up and

down the canal uh doing a lot of stuff and this is as things are deteriorating down there um We're down there to when that's happening doing all the the Convoy Escorts up and down the Panama Canal um uh training with seventh SF group that was down there we're doing a lot of that stuff um and I actually left the that summer in May May and June to go to sfas to the uh SF selection course I left uh went to Bragg went to SF selection course loved every minute Because then I had another it was

one of my other wild hair moments hold on hold on so did you ever become a ranger no you never became a ranger no I got the regimen but never went to Ranger school I never was permanently assigned there no [ __ ] yep all right well [ __ ] I thought we had a ranger on here not yet yeah they um so I left went to sfas uh went to uh that I was supposed to go to Q course after that Um and that's when we actually came we spent the summer there as doing

all the escort stuff uh we come home actually uh about Thanksgiving time in 89 right um I think I'm getting those dates right and um we're off rotation so our sister elements brigades are going down there to assume the escorts and all that other stuff um the patrol missions and the training with seventh group and all that stuff um And then December 20th a month later uh panel just cause goes down and we get alerted fly out go back to Panama can you explain what that was all about for the listeners well so uh I

guess it was time to let Manuel Manuel Noriega who so who we empowered to do what he was doing down there uh to take back the power from him because he got a little overzealous with it um so somebody we put in power out of Control uh powers that be here in the states out of the White House at the time decide to uh I guess indict him for the his criminal Acts um one of which eventually uh unit has one of the rescues out there uh Kurt Muse they do that when they're down there

funny experience with the unit I'm not at the unit at the time I'm with ninth Uh ninth Infantry Regiment uh the seventh Infantry Division at the time but um doing great things on as a grunt Junior leader uh so one of those things I got this death Blossom story uh so talk about Communications and and getting getting grunts to do on a whim you don't have to talk or as soon as you say something they're on it right one of the things I used to say right before we went on a hit down there Was

because it's Get You know despite all the confusion and they were scared and it's like well what if this happens what if this happens like okay hey cool your jets man if you see me shooting at something find something to shoot at bottom line just do that all right so I didn't think about that at the time when I said it but uh we go on this raid and we're going to get this one dude who's Apparently one Of the the Battalion 2000 was the noriega's Army at the time the the Army down there that

went rogue um and now they're we were training them their friends now they're our enemies just like Noriega was um well first of all it's down this narrow like it used to be storage units just one row an alley way let's just call it an Alleyway it's Panama City so it's Just it's just a narrow Street and with these little uh storage units which they turned into homes so now they're occupied by people and one of these units was the guy we were after um and I have the traditional infantry guys with me the Infantry

tables of organization and Equipment right my 203 Gunner so as we're going down this narrow passageway I'm leading on the Left I have a 203 Gunner on my right side across the street and we're leading them both down both ends of the street and I told Smitty what's my two three Gunner I say hey when I stop you stop right so if we don't hear each other or you don't hear me when I stop you stop if I if I'm shooting something find something to shoot and he's got the old school Grenadier vest on and

they're stacked With all these he 40 Mike Mike rounds and a couple of smokes and it was a daytime raid and we offload the vehicles and we get to this last cupboard and concealed position and it's a Sprint to the door from there so down this it wasn't a long Sprint um and as we're going I'm crouched down and you know face to the front and I looked to my right and I see Smitty across the Way and literally from here to that wall is this the width of the street we're on and I see

him Crouch down and but his his legs when they come up they're kicking out from his vest the 40 mic on the bottom row of his vest and I was like well he's got plenty left other than his best when we get there and it's such a small place we're probably not going to use it I'm probably not going to ask him to use that anyway Um so I was okay with that it's just he's dropping some rounds we'll pick those up afterwards after the assault right salt goes down oh well let's get to this

assault so there's a little uh uh break in the on my side there's a break which we're going to go set up on this on this door um there's a break in the row of storage units homes um and it goes out to the Jungle right And that was just where the kids played and everything it was just the break in the the facility the the structure and that's where I was going to go set up right around the door so around the corner and there's the door so I set up and we were going

to tell him in Spanish I had one of my guys spoke fluent in Spanish we're going to tell him to come out you know kind of thing Something of that effect or we're coming in after you right you want to buy this that and the other thing and we're coming in after you if you don't come out so he said he has his wife and kid in there and we said okay we'll send them out so they don't get hurt and uh send them out we'll grab them up scooped them up took them off and

as soon as they went uh a couple of our supporting elements they came to pick up the wife and kid They take them out of the way as soon as they came uh as soon as they disappeared and they were safe I rounded the corner right doors I'm looking through the window and the door and I'm waiting for this guy to come out or do something and my my guys talking to him it's like come out now or we're coming in and he's and he wanted to put up a fight oh no [ __ ]

yeah so I I backed up a little bit so I'm on my I'm on a knee I'm looking inside the door and looking at this window and I have this support by fire position now I'm talking the width of this room is the width this Lane support my fire position had two machine guns there are M60 machine guns back to old school days they're that close to this building holy [ __ ] and uh I said come out or we're coming in and I wasn't planning on doing that just that I don't know it's like

the guns are going to Open up first and then we're going an efforts typical infantry raid right um support by fire opens up they do their job okay so he's fire on the guns and then we'll go in clean up the mess well uh he says he's not coming out so you know decision time for me I was like I didn't expect him to say that all right but he sent his family out family Safe now he's gonna fight so I backed up a little bit I'm just I'm on a knee so I just sit

on my foot and I look back behind me to my Rifleman but he's my speaker my linguist I said tell him we're coming in I took a frag out of my kit and I said tell him we're leading with this and coming in afterwards and so he told him you know come out or you know yada yada yada and we're coming in and uh he said something about Fragmentation so my Spanish wasn't so good at the time um and and he said he's not coming out uh Ramirez my guy he's like um hrp he's not

coming out so like Roger that did the whole little hey pulling my pin short everybody that was behind me and I threw in the door to give him booze right so as soon as I feed the grenade I backed up against the Wall so I'm crouched down I'm back up against the wall and waiting for the explosion right and um so they're all thatched roofs and and there's cinder block that are making these storage units and now they're homes and thatch stuff just starts flying there's debris everywhere and right above us fragmentation is coming through

the cinder block right and that's that's how I was sitting there thinking just Loud as hell man just douche everything explodes and I see everything flying and I look back at the wall of the frag holes I was like okay that wasn't such a good idea right and I'm looking down the line like okay everybody's still good we're still good so off we go I said you know let's go follow me or something to that effect around the corner and guns in and they have this little partition it's A small room this little partition where

it separated the room I yelled gun on the the coffee table ended up to be a toy gun I yelled gun as I'm going through the door and I see this partition and if somebody's hiding in there that's a good place to hide so I just stitched the wall right um so total Grant raid stuff right it's not like Surgical fires and you know Target ID and all this [ __ ] I just fragged this place so we're going in blazing right I go in a yellow gun on the table and start stitching this wall

and what did it tell my guys if you see me shooting find something to shoot so the two guys that were coming in with me there was four guys that were on the entry team one stayed at the door and and you know took outside security and the other two guys joined me as they're Right behind me and I'm just stitching this wall what does RP do what did he say last find something to shoot and they're just stitching walls I was like and I hear them shooting as loud as [ __ ] and it's

like okay okay I my side's clear and they're like I wait for the lowland fire and they're like clear that yelling clear clear and also the [ __ ] and I look back behind the kitchen little thing That I shot at and there's nothing there and there's a little bedroom uh or a little room which is their bedroom and a uh somewhat of a bathroom and that's where he was hiding underneath a bunch of furniture um we go in there and look around but this place has just been fragged there's still that thatch roof stuff

dust in the air and the frag and the cement cinder block debris everywhere we can't hear anything because we just fired three Guns at like in our ears and uh Ramirez is yelling at this dude like like uh come out you know are you hurt or all those other things and by then I'm thinking surely this dude's like near death yeah quite right and he's underneath this two mattresses and he pulled something it was like a some sort of a bookshelf or a shelf but over him and we took all that stuff off and got

him at gunpoint And uh he had his had his hands already up he's on his back and he says his hands up and um I look at him and he's clean as day right he only has on shorts so he doesn't have any other clothing on or anything it has on shorts and thongs or whatever his slippers or whatever the hell he on his feet and it's like how is this again how many holes in them and I had the Ramirez talk to him he's like are you okay you have anything hurt And I'm doing

like an initial assessment on the guy at the same time not a scrap scratch off holy [ __ ] the only thing he couldn't do or had a complaints about was his hearing he couldn't hear anything um so I flex tied him got him up headed him took him outside took him out got him out of the way and I was thinking the whole time that you know post assault procedure kind of stuff so we go in there and look around And do the SSC thing in his little as his little cabin whatever that is

um and then the people started coming out from their homes in their doorways and asking um you know they thought the 203 Gunner Smitty going in is dropping the 203s was mining the roadway going in so they used their landmines yeah they thought they were landmarks how many of those things did he drop like half a dozen And um I looked around I was like no no uh there's no landmines are they saying land mines like ask them specifically or like landmine land mines and uh Ramirez was like yep no wait a minute and I

looked down the street and I can see the the golden egg Trail right I was like oh is that what they're talking about and they said yes and I was like oh oh hey tell them we'll take them we're gonna pick them up on the way out get Some media on the radio hey come pick up your grenades um yeah and that was it that was the deaf Blossom story because we're back to back just shooting up this little little room um but it was like then I was thinking well okay maybe I need to

work on my communications a little bit with these guys you know not quite go just find something to shoot and they did exactly what I told them to Do yeah but a lot of things like that uh you know about raids you know right after right after raid um we're going after you know a lot it turned into a lot of um uh like territories uh like us one territory or one group is wanting us to go after their competition this sounds like Afghanistan yeah and so But we're just Grunts and we don't know any

better we're just passing the information on from the street the Intel uh let them do whatever this they need to do it goes through the system comes down from you know Battalion headquarters these are the missions and then we go on a raid um but it did it was that's all it was um everybody wanted us to go after their competitions and you know pass around The drugs and all that other stuff that was going on um but God I got got a little a lot of experience rating yeah how long were you how long

were you down there um through the holidays we ended up redeploying so probably two to three weeks on the street doing patrols and rails and stuff like that and then um because we redeployed probably I want to say by the end of January of 90 had been at least by then um yeah we have a Christmas raid so another thing I learned too um so this raid I I called Christmas raid and the up order uh it was on Christmas Day we were patrolling through we had to patrol the shanty town to get there and

the guys that I had leading Um so there's this little kid that we got the he's going to lead us to the house in the shanty town because it's a shiny town you can't make heads or tails of it nobody can tell you know go down this street because there's no street names um so we had this little kid that came out uh or one of the people that was in the village said we'll lead you to it well I'll send you somebody to lead you to the house so This little kid shows up it's

like 10 or 11 years old and that's who he had to lead us into this this this raid and that even got me a little nervous yeah um because some of the places he was walking through I mean I was like well this is where we're gonna get hit he said Somebody's setting us up for an ambush right and that that kind of was prevalent in the guys and I didn't say that to anybody uh But the guys the guy had leading he was uh he had stopped he held he held the patrol I came

up to see what's happening and the kid kept walking and disappeared into the shanty house and where we stopped wasn't a good place to stop because it was like everybody including myself was thinking like Woodline jungle can't see anything it's at night and then Shanny house Shantytown Um this is where we're gonna get hit so I was just like hey keep moving keep going keep going and he was literally Frozen he said I can't go any further he's like I saw him prayer I can't do it and I said can't do what he goes he

goes oh I can't go forward I can't I think I'm gonna lead everybody into an ambush I can't do this and I was like all right leadership decision going on right here in my head going what do I do Now we're already going to this target support elements are in position um so I said all right follow me let's go and then found this kid uh the kid you know is doing this whole thing I was like all right this little kid if he stirs in the wrong direction that's another thing I got going on

my head like what am I going to do with that kid right um but he led us through this house past The support positions and finally American faces in the shiny Village is like whoa who's that that's like a per position um finally get to this place ready to place uh all all the all the things you ever talk about in breaching like bad happen right Sledge through the door that goes through the door and gets stuck you know all these things and it's on a it it's a shanty Village and it's in a bad

part of It's Panama so yeah it's it's wet ground and so that's on the house is on stilts so this is raised I feel like out in the [ __ ] jungle yeah it's raised about waist level and so there's rickety steps that go in through the front door and they're just steps it's not like something you can stack on and all these other things right um and then it's just uh a plywood check and uh apply with a Plywood door and the door's locked I have a padlock on it so uh the guy had

up there first with the bolt cutters um he was gonna you know cut the lock and then open the door I said just just hit it with the sledgehammer that whole door and the wall is going to go down when you hit it with a sledgehammer and then then we're in position to cover everything by fire right so and so he it's it's elevated about race Level and so he has to swing this Sledge at this knob or the with the touching point it wasn't really a doorknob but he has to Sledge the hammer over

swing the hammer over his head so as he's swinging it over his head sticks in the door and gets stuck and then it's like oh God you know worst nightmare it's like and go right stuck oh my God everybody's bumping into each other Because getting ready we're getting ready to run into this place and and assault this building this room and um then it was just like you know stepping over our guys to get in because the the steps gave away they they under the weight of the first two guys that got on these wood

steps they're they're they're wet they're dilapidated they're rickety and to get into the front door stepping over our guys you know just to crawl into the the threshold of this Door and then you know from a kneeling laying position you know starting to clear this room it was just the worst thing imaginable um but it's like yeah never everything doesn't always work out perfectly yeah you get to go in you know all cool and sexy and [ __ ] did you get them yeah yeah rolled up the guy um he is actually he was rolled

up he he skirt squirted out the back uh which we Had guys back there and a support team that was watching the back they they wrapped them up out back when it came out um custom hundred of them took them back um you know detain them and all that good stuff and um he did have a bunch of stuff in there that uh I guess was used against him in his uh the drug wars down there okay yeah so that ended up to be a pretty good Despite the clown jackassery going on to get in

that's nice but it's like it was like always ingrained in my head like okay well it isn't always cool you know it doesn't always look sexy yeah but as long as you get the job done you know Mission success yeah and nobody got hurt either so well you know nine times out of ten you don't look as stupid as you think of you but uh So you guys were doing stuff like that just about every day down there yeah it was it was pretty busy there for a while um one of the first nights there

uh my potential well so unit guys are down there right um and my my task is a grunt on the ground the first night uh we get to this one position and it's a blocking position And um apparently the Battalion 2000 the group out of the city into the jungle and they're coming back on a counter assault the the night that we get there and so that's what they tell me we're going to plus you up with extra guns and all this other stuff and you like I'm gonna be the first one to hit run

into you oh all right all right good on me man uh you know be Careful what you ask for kind of stuff right um a lot of funny things happened that night uh Spanish that's my strong point um as we're waiting for this new counter offensive um there's somebody one of my guys on the perimeter and it's it's thick it's a neighborhood but on it's thick jungle still um here's a guy walking down the street he Has a gun and he's making his way down the street and I hear these whisperings going on and they're

calling for me and Sergeant p and they're calling me Sergeant P the whole time sorry piece RP it's like I finally get there [ __ ] little crawling into this position it's like uh he does the enemy that way he's like how do you say get down in English I was like or in Spanish I was like and my we had all done we've been there down all the whole summer we'd worked on our Spanish on all those terms and um total brain fart right it's like oh my God here's our time to shine right

um and I I couldn't think of it I was like and I jump out of the Bush out of the Jungle point my gun at him and I said get on the ground with a [ __ ] and he stops he drops his gun and gets On the ground and I was like that's how you say get on the ground in Spanish uh and then get him wrapped up and send him back and all this other stuff but then next morning um uh the we we have this corner my corner umtastic so all the well

before I get to the daylight that night we're putting up stuff blocking stuff anything we can find so we're taking apart walls they have these little cinder blocks That they make their uh decorative walls out of right so we're relocating all this stuff to make you know uh speed bumps hurdle something for Carson can't get through behind us on a residential street um I think we're carrying things from homes you know whatever we can put on the street to make some sort of obstacle and uh normal traditional like danger area crossing right we're going I'm

going Across uh setup uh support position I'm gonna go across set up support and they follow me over as I'm running across I hear this little you know noticeable noise overhead fire it's like the snapping I was like it's like oh [ __ ] I run back I was like [ __ ] I was like did anybody see that and they're like no we're looking we're looking I was like oh man now we don't know exactly where it came from Pitch Black outside and there's a street light At this intersection that we're trying to put

this uh some sort of obstacle in and we're just totally fabricating this whole thing whatever we can get trash cans anything uh to put in a street and anchor them down so nobody would go down that Street behind us because our position was facing the other direction and I was like all right we got to get this done all right get in get in position look if you hear anything light them up so I grab my Stuff put it on my shoulder start running across the street if I can snap snap snap I'm running it's

like and I don't hear any gunshots from my guys and I get to the far side and I get I was like what the [ __ ] you guys see anything it's like we didn't see anything I was like ah son of a [ __ ] because now I have to go back across right so I throw things on the street really quick just to throw It out there and I was like all right you guys ready it's like eyes up man guns up and on three I'm running back across and one two three I

start running back across then snap snap snap I was like that's son of a [ __ ] I was like why aren't you guys shooting let's go we can't see we can't see where it is I was like well what now right so I but two guys I was like hey I knew one of you guys come Across with me maybe you can see them from the other side and then there's a small hesitation there I was like come on you're going across with me and Smitty my favorite guy with the 203 guy he's like

uh oh it's a it's an under uh 203 right on his uh M16 yeah and um I say hey somebody stay here keep your eyes open we're going back across so we grab some more stuff to drag across the Road and um snap snap snap and nothing from Smitty and I can't remember who it was that was with me uh he's actually one of the guys that froze later on the Christmas raid but he's running across he looks shoot that [ __ ] somebody's like I can't see him I can't see him Um we dropped

some more stuff on the road and we're going back like this five or six times to build this barricade and at one point the last time I go across I was like okay one one more thing I'm gonna put out there we're gonna call it quits bear kids up we're done and screw this guy we'll find him later I was gonna I'm thinking I gotta go to the middle of the street make this final blockage in the road and expose myself And everything right yes dude now I'm gonna give this guy a momentary like I'm

gonna have to stop at one point right it's like well you guys [ __ ] guns up get this dude and I I'm not going to stay out there for long so if you see this dude take care of this guy so I run out there and as I'm running out there and I put the thing things down I stop like I hear a couple of snaps and I stop And I looked in the direction that I heard it coming from like like all right what [ __ ] give my guy something to shoot at

please yeah and and nothing nothing and I didn't hear any fire at all and then ran back off the road so momentary pause like and then ran back into the woods to my guys and I plopped down in the middle of them I was like nothing Like Mega Shark negative sorry we couldn't see anything and mostly because one of the guys were really scared I think but um they were like all right well barricades up we're good let's go back let's go get back in the fight um that morning um eventually where I end up

going you guys are coming into this van and they need To get to um uh the uh the church what did they called the track I can't remember what they called The Church Noriega went from uh to this uh the church the papal nuncia okay um I think that's what they called it um so he goes there for sanctuary and uh these unit guys that are coming down this road where the the counter assault's supposed to happen that night I hear Specter gunship just tearing somebody up down the road right they're just I mean they're

so close we can hear uh the the howitzers the 40 mic mics all the machine and stuff sounded cool [ __ ] and they're tearing somebody up and it's jungle so you can't see exactly what's down there there's you know I can see the plane and they're just firing up somebody I'm thinking okay they're taking care of business they're taking care of that a counter assault group Well from that direction comes these unit guys in a white panel van and I got this street locked out with my guys right and there's cars now starting to

try to get out of that part of the city they're backed up they're stopped they're not going anywhere which is good for me because it's bucking the whole Road um and uh Smitty my gosh Smitty he's down at the far end of this thing and he Calls on the radio say hey storm Force he's got to come down here there's some guys in a white panel van I think they're an army and they want to get through now this road is jumped up with cars that are wanting to leave right and plus our [ __

] that we have um in the road and um I was like all right hey I'll be there in a minute I go making my way down through this traffic of cars and get to this panel van Hispanic mail is in the Passenger seat up front it's a panel van you can't see in the back driver looks like man it could be a Panamanian Hispanic of some sort and I said who are you guys and they said Army um had an ID card and they're in regular clothes had a an ID card and I looked

at it and I was like looks legit but I'm not used to army guys dressed like this I was like you what do you got in the back you got anything in the back and he Said yes he's like or something that effect like uh Rod Stewart we have I have guys in the back and they have guns and we're trying to get to the papal nuns yet to where Noriega is being held or he's he went for a sanctuary and I was like well I'm gonna have to look in the back and um just

to be safe and he's like all right well give me a minute and he says something over Shoulder and so I tell Smitty all right typical clearing thing you get the handle I'll go guns up look in the bat clear it right actually grabs the handle he's got his gun up and he grabs the handles like uh on three one two slides up it's a slider panel van and there's these dudes in uh Woodland camouflage videos protects and car 15s and all [ __ ] one there's one guy Sitting in the door like this facing

right at me and he's got his uh his U.S flag red white and blue it's not and it's not subdued and I can see that another guy I can see has one on his chest and he's over his shoulder like this point at me and there's several all I can remember is like this this wall of guns looking at me yeah and I recognize the red white and blue in this camera like you know black protax the the darkness of all the other Colors the white background and the panel band because it was a white

panel van um red white and blue flags definitely stood out for me and and these dudes sitting there like this and I'm looking at this like oh Lord my gun it's like somebody close the door it's like sir you're good to go and I and He's like we need to get through here I was like no worries and I said part part the waters I said make room for this van it's coming through and my guys just started telling everybody to get away they went through I couldn't find out later on when I go to

selection just the next year it's it's the unit guys and it's uh it's the Squadron that I'm actually going to eventually too no [ __ ] yeah real quick for the viewers so unit guys are special forces operation Group Detachment Delta yep that's that's what you're talking about yeah and I heard about that when I went to selection uh so I go through twice um and they were like uh hey were you in Panama are you [ __ ] I was like yeah they don't talk to you until it's at the end so this happens

at the end and I was like I was like uh Roger and like huh and then they take off because Actually so I got the selection didn't make it the first time but I made it through enough to where I got some sort of I don't know uh respect is this selection for for the unit this is selection for adult yeah so this is the year after apparent holy [ __ ] so you didn't become a Green Beret either yes eventually yeah I went through the Q course yep okay we'll we'll get to that yep

Um so that was kind of I didn't know what was happening because I didn't make it but I went to the the not make it Shack so I go through this whole thing it is a comical things of things that I did that time that I knew was like there's no way I'm going to make this there's no way because there was just one mistake after another and you can't make mistakes because you're so pressed for time and you don't know the time um you're just running around and you Know West Virginia mountains you know

trying to get somewhere fast the rucksack on your back this doesn't happen fast um but you do the best you can right and I was just one wrong move one wrong you know Valley I'm right oh it's just a mess a lot of good stories out of that one too but uh funny stories I cracked my head on this rock I'm making my way up this power line that's got all these rocks Boulders and they're moss covered and on a map it looks like that's that's a clear spot I don't have to walk through the

woods and over all these Deadfall and everything else right it looks like a clear path up this mountain and it's not because it's Boulders it's just huge Boulders they're moss covered and I'm hopping for Boulder to Boulder I slip on a boulder because it's moss covered rucksack drive my head into a boulder I got this big old gash at my forehead and I was like okay that that hurt um but I'm still going I get in the woods and I'm continuing up I get this one uh Rendezvous point and they don't talk to you there

they're very uh stoic very in lines that they have to say and that's it um one of them is do you wish to seek medical attention and it's yes or no and I got to this point I see this Category member and he's he's just at a checkpoint making sure that I'm not violating any roads and trails and and doing what I'm not supposed to be doing right and he notices the blood dripping down my face and he looks at me and I see him looking here I was like oh yeah probably got a goose

egg there but I'm still good right I'm not quitting and uh he said do you uh color number because you're a color number oh you're not a person yet And he said that uh color number he said he looked at me looked at my forehead and I noticed him looking at my forehead I do wish to seek medical attention I said negative sorry he's like do you wish to seek medical attention I was like negative sorry and I was like why did he ask me twice it's like how bad does that look right and he

asked me one more time I said negative sort he's like all right have a good one and off I went and uh I was Just that I was stuck in my head the whole time like why did he ask me it's like how bad does this really look how [ __ ] up am I and I got to the end they do an inventory of what I have and weigh my rucksack and all these other things and uh while they're doing that look at my forehead and like do you wish to seek medical attention why

does everybody keep asking me that and I was like no don't pull me if I see the doc I'm getting pulled I was like no I don't want to see all right grab some stuff handy white stuff that I had in my back my rucksack and wiping my forehead and I can feel you know a little knot in my forehead I mean things like that were happening this whole time and I made it to the point where um I guess it was decently enough to where they actually came up to me later in the uh

the going home uh Shack because there's a Barracks for training and then There's a go home Barracks that you go to it's like I don't want to end up in those barracks ended up in those barracks and the the academy members is they're coming back through the camp um they made it a point to stop hey sharp horse and the first time they called me that hey good job you know unfortunately you didn't make it I hope you come back and rein Panama last year you got to be [ __ ] me yeah I was

like Rogers Aren't like and then took off and then I had that had three Cattery members come up to do that and uh remember them to this day and eventually I see them when I passed the second time and get to operator trading course in the unit and all that stuff and see them in the hallways and the same guys as are passing Hall as she you know it's one of those things they're they're already there right they're already made it into the Squadron so when you pass Them in the hallways you know it's like

you know don't talk to those guys because they're like the real guys right and I'm just uh I'm just the wannabe still and so you don't talk to them yet but every time they pass down the past me in the hallway there you're the Panama guy and I was like oh [ __ ] what we're all three of them in the back of the van uh two of them that I know were in the back of them one of the guys was up Front he's the guy with the ID okay yeah um they're asking me

the whole time and then they were also saying because the current Muse rescue they got shot down from ninth uh was it uh whoever the Infantry unit was down there they're the ones who shot the helicopter down so I was friendly fire that shot the helicopter down for them use um rescue um so they were saying that they're Just harassing me right being sarcastic about I was like you're the ones who shot us down I was like no no it wasn't me I was the one around the blocking position that let you guys go right

I'm the good guy but yeah that was that was funny you know in a whole War there's always something that happens weird and you know memorable that is not horrible you know so How did you find out about that selection I I thought you were talking about selection become a Green Beret no I went to so in 89 I went to SFS for Green Beret stuff and then in the interim um I'm at Fort Ord California and then get uh orders to go to Korea so I actually go to Korea but before I leave there's

a uh on the Armed Forces Network on the on The military installation Network they'll actually post the recruiting like uh the recruiters are going to be here for this unit at this time this day you know see your first sergeant and personal ncos do this if you and some people get cards they get cards in them that they've already been administratively checked and they get cards in through the the mail system to go to these meetings but it's also on the the Installation Network channel and a couple of guys that I knew were uh had

the car they got the cards mailed I saw it on the channel I was like no I'll go with you guys see what this is all about they had no intention to go they just wanted to go see what the briefing was all about and I had no idea so so that's never I mean she had no idea what you were walking into there was Something I ever said I didn't get a card but I want to know what this shit's about yeah okay it's like what just like joining the Army I had no idea

nobody [ __ ] invited me to this party I'm going oh I'm going anywhere right this is see what they're selling um I'd already gotten the sfas now I didn't get my qcore state for uh the green brace stuff because I went to Panama so that this is another similar situation That I have a regiment right I'm gonna go to range of Italian so I go to sfas I've got a cucker state the kick or state gets pushed back because now I'm in Panama just cost so I get back find out that my keycore State

uh is over the six-month window I got to go back to selection before I get another q Core State I was like okay whatever I kicked it in the ass once or kicked me and they asked once I can do it again Right I survived it once I could do it again I said yep I'll do that again sign up for another class but in the interim I'm moving from Florida California to Korea on those orders and I see it at Fort Ord and the guys that I know had cards they're going to this briefing

I was like hey man I'll come with you guys see what this is all about and um it was a cool ass video right it was Like and so any moment before that any moment for that you read it and like only you only read about it in gung-ho magazine and oh at the old Stockade they have those stories right on Fort Bragg they're in this their original location for Bragg um soja Fortune you know just stories that they're writing about the ranger battalions and the unit and all this Other stuff all this super secret

[ __ ] to do never it was always good reads always motivational but never a thought in my mind it's like well that's cool never thought that this is what I want to do I was always thinking that's pretty cool for those guys that do that [ __ ] that's badass right yeah never ever like this is what I want to do right it was super motivating to read about I always thought put them on this pedestal there Those are those dudes man that's awesome right yeah um never a clue that when I finally go

to this briefing I go to this briefing and I'm still thinking and so one of the things they do say at this briefing is your only failure is your failure to try I was like that's what got me I was like um you know cool videos all I mean it's all that it's all the cool stuff it's all The direct action stuff and helicopters and little birds flying everywhere and fast rap and it's all neat stuff guys and black stuff running through you know doing CQB [ __ ] I was like that's badass right yeah

like that'd be cool you know so if if that was something you know if I knew somebody yeah that's [ __ ] badass um and then that's the thing they said um a bunch of people ask questions how long do you deploy and all this other Stuff and they said well we can't you know disclose all this other stuff but you'll be gone this is your primary mission in life and also the stuff and there's a whole they don't hold anything back it's like you're gonna be deployed you have to uh if you're married yes

your spouse has to buy into this whole thing too unless you're not going to make it uh past all the selection stuff I mean this it's a it's a whole family thing or not at all If it's not right it's not right and they'd tell you up front um it's good for some people it's not for others it's not for everybody um if this is what you want to do and you're married have kids and all that stuff that's a discussion between you guys and you need to be 100 in you know so they let

everybody know that so those are the some things I was listening to I was like wow that's pretty cool and then the last thing it Says you know you know what's the harm in trying uh your only failure is your failure to try I was like it's badass yeah I was like I'm gonna do this how many people showed up to this meeting oh it's huge is that it was in a uh a post theater right so easily easily half of those seats were filled wow yeah and uh that's just one base yep and that

was just one briefing there were several briefings in this week that They were there right so they were going to have these briefings all week and then the PT test for those that were interested at the end of the week we're doing initial PT test the initial screen for those that haven't been screened yet and uh official application and then go from there and yeah it was just uh it was neat it was neat to see all that kind of stuff going on I was like wow that's I did I still didn't see myself There

like no [ __ ] this is this is me right I still didn't see me as doing this but that thing about your only failure is your failure to try I was like holy [ __ ] I was like this is this is I tried as hard as I could to get in a ranger regiment and the Army shut the door slammed the door on me I get an open door to go to the Q course I okay good thing I got I get Panama Just cause out of this thing get a lot of good

experience there and life's experience out of that stuff leadership stuff um and but then that delays my whole Q course thing and in my mind and a lot of people I think is pretty common to think that you should probably do some things before you get there right and I thought well I'm a grunt man I've marched 100 Mile Road marches 50 mile road marches with rucksacks I go on you know get to you know at the end of a 25 Road March we'll do it hit on a Target how hard can it be right

yeah oh my God totally underestimated my abilities overestimated my abilities underestimated what they were going to throw at me but my mentality was my whole mindset was um well I'm not going to quit I don't care What you throw at me I'm gonna do it the best I can and then when they during that thing during the briefing and when you get there in the initial briefings like just do the best you can we'll assess whether that's good enough or not right so all that all those things is what just super motivated me to do

that um so this was real a relatively new unit at the time 10 years yeah 10 years into thing which is which is a Interesting story I have at because you do a panel interview at the end right but when I when I finally go the first time um there's a lot of people that showed up there that weren't didn't have any intention to do anything they're trying to get out of deployments and all that other stuff and they're not there to to try they're just there for other reasons and of course they're going to

fail out but I get There I don't know anybody in the unit at the time I don't know anybody who's I do know two guys that tried back early in the 80s that left no so early in the 80s this is really new right uh so this is 8283. that unit is just brand new right I mean it doesn't you know the whole thing in the desert right that just happened years a couple years before that so I knew two ncos that left Duds triathletes the whole thing they go and they don't make it that

was another Thing that kind of always stuck in my mind for what 10 almost 10 years 7 10 years something like that that one guy came back with about two weeks I don't remember the time frame he came back and he's like well usually you come back from a uh any training and if you don't make your your [ __ ] bag right yeah he came back he's like that was the best thing I ever could have done in my life unfortunately I didn't make it uh I'm Not I'm not the person that they want

uh but he gave it everything he had he goes but so good on them because if they want more than what I was able to give that's [ __ ] badass he goes I gave him everything I had and it's not good enough and they told me that just like that I was like wow that's not normal either right yeah um I was like huh and he was fine saying that that says a lot about that person he didn't come back and say I'm a Failure I failed at this uh he came back and said

I'm not going back because I literally gave him everything that I had and I don't have any more to give so I guess I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing soldiering in the 82nd right the other dude comes back another week or two later so he makes it further down the process he comes back doesn't make it says the same thing I was like Well first of all these two studs I was like holy [ __ ] you know they didn't make it but they're not they're not complaining about anything they're appreciative of the

time they spent it's like well I guess I'm not what they're looking for because I gave them everything that I had and they told me it it wasn't enough you're not the person that we want all right why'd you do that because they that's the one best place About that like you you don't have to there's no false bravado stuff there's no it's upfront conversations either good enough or you're not you're putting out or you're not right and if you're not putting out whoa get your [ __ ] together right uh so honest such an

open environment to say you know even even in harsher terms right like you know get your [ __ ] together or you're you're [ __ ] hitting the hitting the bricks right yeah Um but you are never in any you're never on don't know where you stand right you're either good or you're not and if you're not you better get good or find another job I mean there's no there's no animosity there's no there there's no nothing to hold on anybody you know it's just a matter of fact there's no grudges yeah there's nothing I

don't care where you came from just do your Job that's all we're asking you to do do this job do the best that you can now we're asking you to do more right so when you eventually make it in it's like yeah you're expected to do your job and and much more to to the best and just get better just like be a professional Soldier and then be a professional like Commando this is what you you signed up to do so they asked everything of you And you put 110 into it and if you if

it's not if you're not doing that then it's okay what find somewhere else to work um so it's not there's no uh like you do your evaluation assessment operator training course and all that stuff official selection and then once you get there though it's like it's expected of you To do all that you can to be the best that you can every day you show up for work and if you don't show up for work or if you don't want to show up for work okay everybody gets burned out that's fine just find another place

to go work um otherwise if she'll work let's get it all right yeah let's do it um now I loved it that was the best time ever and there's some sacrifices if you're going to be a professional and The best at what you do with that there's some sacrifices that have to be made with family and free time and everything else and um yeah because if you're you're not deployed you're training to be deployed you're you're constantly training to do your job then you do your job then you're trying to do the next job then

you're you know uh it just it's constant and And I can't imagine what it was like over the last 20 years with these guys but I mean it's just Balls to the walls and it's it was the most enjoyable time though I mean the expectations of you and your expectations I was never uh all they wanted was the best out of you yeah the whole time there no matter what you did it could have been shooting Moving CQB could have been breaching that was my thing um it could have been anything could have been an

r d project do the best edit that you can um we want the best out of you whatever you do I mean whatever it is there was no need for a PT test or anything like that because that was part of your daily life yeah just the job itself uh you could take a PT test any time of the day any day of the week And it'd be nothing to you um the running an obstacle course in the pool right I mean that was like a daily thing hey let's let's let's do a uh at

the end of every week right somebody to come up hey let's go do some competition right it's going to involve running shooting moving swimming everything right and and uh every week uh Thursday right let's do it let's Let's earn our weekend and all week just training and training and training and running and getting and motorcycles ATVs whatever it is uh Mobility training what whatever um CQB let's hit and hit hit homes and just go over and over and over and then critique each other on everything every like Minor Details um very critical and the best

hot washes and after action you know uh reports After anything that's done right um do it hey what we what you know what were you doing wrong here you know hey where were you at during this time what were you doing um why did you do this and then you just have to be accountable for yourself right and then hold your teammates accountable it's like hey you know and it's sometimes a pretty harsh uh discussion to have say hey what the [ __ ] yeah right and they're like what do you Mean it's like what

happened during this and they're not taking it like hey man you know don't say that to me they're like why what'd you see right and then you tell them what you saw and like oh [ __ ] um yeah man and they explain it it's like all right well sorry about that man I thought you were you know we're out of it for a minute um even even uh like family problems family issues say hey dude you don't Seem like you're here today like 100 mentally you need to take care of something and then you

know let them go for the day hey go home take care of businessman um we'll see you tomorrow you know no no questions asked yeah um we need you here 100 if you're not here today then fine just go take care of business uh make sure everything's right and and we'll re-engage tomorrow and nothing I mean it was just the the Best environment to be like the best you can be yeah I mean you're there I mean the the fact that you're there like you know that doesn't fall short on anybody that's there it's like

uh and everybody is in that mindset so I mean All-Stars it's All-Stars competing against All-Stars yeah and it's not a angry competition it's uh it's like a sarcastic ah I got you this time right I was like I'll get you Next time [ __ ] oh it's just I always just you know that competitive environment is just breeds the best I mean you can't do anything but get better at what you're doing no matter what it is um let's talk about OTC when you got through selection what how was that broken up what was what

was maybe What was the toughest portion for you um I mean let's back up a second so you went to selection did you did you realize what you had gotten yourself into so here's the deal when that came to me right so I didn't make it the first time the dude the sergeant major is our major fry I'll say his name because he's since retired and all that stuff great dude Great guy he was talking to me the whole thing um and he's another one of the guys that I had talked to was operational now

in the training side of the house when he's talking bringing me on board um just very matter of fact-ish and he just kept saying well just do the best you can that's all we're asking um and don't worry about that you're Worried about you know you didn't say well you weren't about super [ __ ] small [ __ ] just he just kept saying don't don't focus on that just keep doing the best you can um and you'll be fine that whole mentality through the whole thing was just awesome but when I finally realized my

second time through that's why I even came back so I don't I made it pretty far I didn't know that how far I made it in the Process but I made it pretty decently I come after I made it and I find out oh [ __ ] that was the point where I I got cut the last time um again I get back and really very smooth um and I had attribute all that to just training I didn't over train I trained just good enough I didn't I did make some of the same mistakes I

did on Navigation but I made up for it I knew I had to make up for it apparently because I made it um and eventually you make it to the end of the this one spot the official selection phase and you're allowed to drink uh you're told to have a seat get on warm something warm and dry and um sit by the fire with whoever's there There was two people that were there other selectees that's it yeah and um so there's three of you out of that class um I think there was 12 total My

OTC class 12 people I think so yeah and you're they have this uh The Grog mix whatever that is food wine Um whatever they call that stuff um drink that it's horrible um put on some warm socks dry t-shirt and all that [ __ ] and then then you're told you officially made it past the official selection phase of of the process um it really didn't sink in I mean I was beat I was just ugh just like ready to pass out you're like what the [ __ ] are We trying out for who are

you guys and uh I've never heard of this place there's nothing cool about what just happened where's all the helicopters and their cool stuff right um and then there's the the board and when I realized the competition the composition of the board members they're all the senior commit the Squadron commanders unit commanders star majors And at the time so this is this is 90. um there all the plank owners they're all the guys that were in desert one right it's like they were the guys who were there who started the whole thing other than screw

marker School marker had gone on since then uh back with as long since being gone out of the unit um stuff by then um but all these guys were uh the Assaulters The Troop commanders The Troop sergeant majors and the assaulters and the snipers that were there for Desert one and so you're just like kind of like this right you're sitting in a seat in the middle of this like three or four rows it just seemed like a whole wall of faces at me the first row unit commanders are major School marker was the commander

of the time and Bobby little is a sort of major Keith Perdue eventually was my sermon major he's Sitting there and a couple of them it seemed like all of them had a cigar so that's all I remember because and they're they're sitting there you know like you know with their cigars and like I was like looking at him Starstruck like uh as I'm painting this crowd it's like and Starstruck is the only thing I can think of as a as a what I was thinking at the time And I remember uh sorry major fry

he's off on the side and he's the only recognizable face because he's been talking to me this whole time and the psych's there psychologists are there and all this other stuff and there's some questions there that they ask I don't remember all of them but the only thing I remember thinking I just kept looking around I'm doing my military scene and they kept saying relax I was like I am relaxed what are You talking about it's like I am sitting here getting questioned by like the original guys are totally Starstruck by the whole situation I

was like what the hell am I doing here with these guys right and it's like oh just a grunt right and uh that's one of the things they asked me it's like so we have guys that have done done a lot of things in their careers and they have a lot of experience and stuff like that that was One of the things they asked me is like what do you what do you bringing to the table and I'm looking at These Guys these desert Wendy it says like I'm thinking I got nothing I was like

um well so I'm an engineer I know explosives uh I just started just rattling off I was just nervously rattling off a bunch of stuff and um I'm willing to learn I just want to do this Not for only for myself but for my country and all this other stuff I'm just just randomly doing some other stuff I don't even remember what I was saying exactly and I'm just thinking what do I have to impress these guys with yeah I mean I was like oh my God uh and the other one question I do remember

them asking that one and then um you see you've been to uh I have to explain the whole regiment thing that I'm AWOL right they bring that up that's How I explain that away and um they say okay I see you've gone to uh special force selection um between the two this course and that one what do you think is what do you think was the most difficult between the two and I'm not thinking what is the right thing to say right [ __ ] I said because that two totally different night and day yeah

of course is right um because you're all on your own for That course you don't have anybody to pull you through you don't have anybody to pull through to motivate you it's all you in your head am I good enough and am I going fast enough and all this other stuff it and it that's a whole nother animal just that was that was tough um because you're the worst you're Your Own Worst Enemy right um and that's holds true there you get Totally psychological mind [ __ ] yourself into I'm not gonna make it it's

like son of a [ __ ] right um and then back to yes I am going to make it back to you I'll never make it like this I'm you know back and forth Just horrible thing to go through It's just tough and I said because selection SF selection you're with a group of guys the whole time so you always have somebody like us like a like a leader That I wasn't as a grunt I can always like like come on move your ass and get up here and guys are falling out and stuff like

that you can yell at them and that motivates yourself to do better right yeah um uh you're rotating you're doing a lot of Team stuff so there's always some somebody there to either you know motivate you or for you to motivate them and that's kind of what You do there uh it's kind of the whole Point behind that that whole course is uh teamwork and all that kind of stuff make [ __ ] happen uh do the Jeep polls and and just the heavy man that's this weird team stuff um but that's the point um

and so for that point I said um at that moment when they asked her that question I said because it's so hard to motivate people who are ready to quit like that right you can't you can't Just say uh well then quit then you know it's your job to motivate them to keep going so I said for that and that aspect in my head is where I was going from I said probably um a self-selection course and as soon as I said that I was looking around the crowd I was like what a dumbass what

a dumbass um but I didn't change my mind I stayed with it and they said and so I got this this hmm Why would you say that they're like we need to revamp this course why would you say that and I explained it and they understood it because most of them have been through it um at least the process and uh and then it was like the only other thing is like okay um go leave the room so we can talk about you and determine your future I was like oh my God so I'm getting

up From the chair thinking oh my God I just screwed everything up saying that um just back into my head again going oh my God he just screwed it up you did all this for nothing I go and it's our major fry gets me into this so in the mud room in these buildings in a in a regular storefront too they'll have an outer door and an inner door then there's always a vent to um like going in a restaurant that have that a lot to keep the the flies out and The weather out or

you know there's a little uh like a foyer between the two doors and so that's where they put you I swear they turned up the heat in that thing because it's called the sweat box is it yes and I go in there and I'm just beating myself up in my head going oh my God why did I say that why did I oh what did I what was I thinking these guys know better than that right I was like just all in my head and uh sorry to fry he comes out he's Like so how

do you think he did is that all right they're ready for you to come back in and say how do you think you did I was like and I screwed up starting my major I I not feeling good about this but thank you for allowing me to come back and try right and uh he's like don't worry about it um you know they'll they'll let you know what they decided and um yeah let's go in and see so I went in sat in the hot Chair in front of these guys again and I'm saying so

who are these guys my heroes in life like I've read about and all these books and and magazines gonna say about me and um uh totally hit my surprise so I'm standing there and they said we uh something did affect that um we've decided to take you on as apprentice which means you get to go to the Operator training course and and attend the operator training course I'm sitting there thinking oh my God oh my God what did I just do right now the fun begins right and I was like just sitting there it's like

thanks sir because it's Colonel Schumacher at the time it's like thank you sir Bobby little he's like congratulations and then they all start Saying congratulations we've decided to take you on as an apprentice and attend the operator training course and they're starting to say that and that uh they say a few things the psych uh I don't know if there's a mind game or something like that but they asked the psychologist like what do you think and you know all that stuff and um it's just a real brief thing for that moment um and I

said well congratulations we've Decided to take you on his apprentice and attend the next operator training course and I was like lost for words I was like you've got to be [ __ ] me I'm thinking oh my God I just made it damn and then I was looking at everybody and then they're like okay you can leave now [Laughter] I just got up I was like okay and so our major fry I'll let you know what what The next phase is and I go to the same Barracks I was in before but now it's

the successful passing guys that are there and it's already made fries well congratulations armed for us he's like you you know you won't have any regrets for this you did a great job and all good things to say about you and uh now it's on to the operator training course I'll see you when you get the brag the admin guys will get you hooked up with all your orders and all that stuff I had To go fly back to Korea out process there come back a couple months later um they actually said I was halfway

through my tour in Korea they said uh that was one of the questions they asked me what would you think if we asked you to go back and finish your tour in Korea and then come back after that I was like Roger that sir I mean that's what you're saying then that's what I'll do I'll go Back and do us do my Soldier stuff and come home back and um and it didn't they didn't uh they cut me my orders I went back and my orders were already waiting on me by the time I got

the flight back to Korea and started out processing and back to brag yeah it was uh when I got to the barracks after that the interview um first of all that's when you start feeling the pain Because you're relaxed you're showered and now there are all your joints hurt and all everything hurts um you start feeling all the pain that you put your body through the last you know several weeks and um that's all you I was just sitting there in this day room area kitchen area and the guys are starting to come back that

are coming through the interview and one guy Uh he says it out loud he's like we made it and I was just I was just ready to die I was just like oh my God it hurts so bad and uh he I hear him say that I was like I'm sitting up in my as a lounge chair and I sat up and was like holy [ __ ] dude we made it um and then another guy from I think he's a second range of Battalion guy he started saying the same thing he's like man we

made it and everybody just Started saying it I was like holy [ __ ] then I was like oh my God we made it what no and literally we don't know it really but literally I mean OTC and everything else that's like any just even life there it's like you're getting right now it starts getting ready to put out like every day you're alive you're putting out regardless um but it's all fun and it's not like it putting out Um and I've heard some some some guys say that too it's like you go to work

and hopefully you don't get fired that day right but I I never had that I was never around guys that thought that and I didn't think that either like I can go home today if I scrub today let's just go to work go to work and do the best do go all out that day until it's time to quit and when it's time to quit crack a beer at the bar and you know kind of make the transition Before you go home right yeah relax get [ __ ] showered shave change it change into your

cities and um sit at the bar have beer relax kind of change gears for a minute and then go home um it was just it was just awesome it was an incredible experience how was uh how was OTC how long was it it was good so from it uh six months six months yeah Um it's a very academic you know training um from tradecraft to hard skills to uh uh psychological testing to uh eyesight uh you know testing drills and uh you name it you went through the ringer from head to toe psychologically physically uh

tactically CQB it's like no matter where you came from This Is How We Do CQB right um and you have a lot of guys coming from Different experiences uh some out of the SF Community some out of the Range Community some out of the straight up infantry Community were you the only one out of the Infantry Community um well no um so there were some other guys too I want to say he was a what was he a crew chief helicopter crew chief uh he was in My OTC class um The majority of the guys

I'm guessing come from branch of Battalion ranger battalion or SF oh yeah yeah uh there's probably two or three of us in my teeth out of 12. I don't want to say 12. look at this a little lesser one or two more than that but that not many is this two two rows of us in our in our OTC photo that wasn't much so they actually do that that's that's at the unit somewhere where it shows your selection course It's like a whole like Battalion or company worth of platoons and formation and then OTC class

completion yeah it's pretty neat to see that I mean we didn't see that until we actually got there um we saw it going through there it's like how many guys showed up and you don't really see once once the actual into the selection process you don't see Everybody every day so you don't really get a good sense on who's there and who's not um because sometimes you won't run into people and then you run into them a day after and like oh [ __ ] I thought you were gone man um and then so the

whole time through you don't know where you where you stand and who's left um you can't talk to anybody you can't talk to each other about stuff like that If you run into each other you can't talk to anybody what you what you did that day even though they did the same thing but maybe shits they were not individualized training yep and if it was a uh through the selection process so in in OTC now you're able to do all this collaborative stuff so you're finally able to do that you're able to talk about everything

you do like what uh the best shooter in the class right You're pimping that guy out for what is he doing what's he been doing to get better at shooting um but you do a lot of shooting in ODC I mean you were dumping some rounds in OTC to get good with a pistol and a rifle um you do all the other stuff too um you know Gustav training heavy weapons training uh CQB all the cool stuff uh familiarity with the helicopter starting To fly in little birds and Blackhawks and all that stuff fast roping

um yeah um and then more uh so for me the difference from basic infantry stuff it just more specialized right because you as a grind you can do faster open you can do CQB you can do all those other things but you have like squads and platoons and maneuver elements and all these other things now you're doing more with less do you think The the course was more challenging for you coming from an interest uh excuse me infantry versus guys coming from SF and ranger battalion nope yeah the magical thing about this whole place is

all the people that end up in OTC class with some exception very few exceptions um there is no uh uh you're somehow on an evil even plane And nobody's there's no uh there's no egos uh you know to some extent there's always some of that but they're not bashing you from where you came from or where the other person came from or the the the aircraft crew chief right the mechanic right that makes it through it's like he doesn't get any treated any different from his teammates or the OTC Cadre which are form or Squadron

members um all the guys that that were our Cadre Our attack were uh uh their last thing was the Desert War so there's a couple of them were injured and recovered from injuries and stuff like that and that's the thing you see at the unit too when you're walking around just the defect there's people running around in crutches and wheelchairs it's like oh [ __ ] this is real these guys are in it yeah right and that's when that's when you really get a Sense of okay this is for Real I've been training all my

life for this stuff and there's no there's no time for like like oh my God that's the reality of the situation um there's and it's like one of those yep I signed up for it let's do this um people in back Praises um crutches one of our Cadre was shot I think in the ankle or something like that um OTC Cadre And he's like yeah he didn't think anything of it he's like well yeah the hazards of our chosen profession right yeah and that's the mentality it's like like oh my God I got shot I

can't do this anymore it's like no I'm gonna get healed and get back in it right um so that mentality is prevalent throughout the whole building and it's Just an incredible environment there's no like so there are like super massive egos but you're all on the same plane right this is like uh you know two Super Bowl teams going at it it's the best that they got going at it and you know winner take all yeah you know maybe next time we'll get you right and somebody's got to win somebody's got to lose yeah right

Um but oh my God it was just an incredible environment it's like there's no there's no animosity there's no you know false bravado stuff I mean because you'll get called out on stuff like that um and it'll show in your performance it's like it's like yeah whatever we don't have time for that you know if you perform you perform if you don't you don't we don't need to hear you yelling you know motivational stuff you know It's like that stuff's gone man you left that behind in the regular army when you came to this place

yeah um General uh Colonel Schumacher at the time when he gave the briefing the newcomer briefing he said um uh you guys should have talked about it if you're married for those of you who are married you should have talked about this before you got here if not you know We're going to ask everything of your husbands that are here um and this is their job this is the first this is them this is what they're gonna put first if you're okay with that then you'll be you'll be fine because we're going to ask everything

of your husband he's going to put in a lot of extra time here and we're going to be deployed and sometimes you won't even know when and where that happens Um because we were all on pages back then pager goes off see ya gotta go go in and it's either training Mission or real world mission you didn't know until you got there there were little codes that you send but um if it was just a pager check you know things like that but if you're okay with that that's what you that's what you're signed up

for just if you didn't didn't know it before now this is what you signed up for and uh We don't have time for drama and I'll say and he laid it out there he's like um we don't owe it's like we don't owe you anything that's right you guys are putting out for the this unit in our country right and if it's at any point too much no questions asked you can leave just say the word it no harm no fell it's not a failure thing it's just it happens so if it happens to you

then just say so Don't hide it because that'll show in performance um but yeah hell my sister died when I was there too and I was like I can't go on this Mission there's some issue coming up I was like I can't go on this side my head's not in the game right now and they're like oh Roger that um hey thanks for saying that um then they gave me something else to do while I was in the rear with the gear Right and I was fine with it and they were fine with it um

and that's exactly what everybody did um injuries too um even injuries you did to yourself you worked out too hard you you pulled a muscle or something like that you're like well now you can't now you're unemployable right you're not Deployable um so that was a very thing so even the Workout we had people that taught us how to work out without hurting ourselves like uh professionals to go in there to help us do those kind of things um and back then before CrossFit was the whole thing it was like Jim like train like a

gymnast right you're not trained in like a bodybuilder to do bodybuilding competition you're training to be a gymnast you know flexible agile do all these weird things you know Um because you're we're literally climbing buildings without your kid on um you know fast rope and climbing ropes climbing caving ladders all those things getting into small confined spaces you know so it's trained in like a gymnast um so we had all those people coming in and teaching us how to to train properly and not over train and be always Mission ready um because if you pull

the muscle sprain Something guess what now you're uh now you're a liability uh and now you're gonna have to set this one out sorry about that right and you get those talks though you get those talks I mean loved it it's like it's interesting you know I just interviewed this guy Kyle Morgan who was over there as well and um he had told me I didn't realize how small Delta is and he told me in his Interview that when he graduated OTC they gave him a number an operator number and his I believe his operator

number was 935. and this is I believe he got there mid-2000s yeah and I was when he said that I was like holy [ __ ] I mean this unit's what 50 years old ish yep less 1980. so 79.80 damn it's a current yep That's [ __ ] incredible yeah it's really [ __ ] incredible and I didn't know what my number was I didn't know there was a such a thing they actually came up with that later like we need to find out something because like being around a lot of fields over the years

right they always have a class date that they associate right what class were you in that's the validation right what class we're in yeah everybody knows and there's a way to find out I didn't know what class summer I was um or even uh uh that my number and I still can't remember at the top off the top of my head be honest with you um but it was like OTC 20 something 24 26 or something like that and that was 10 years into it um so there wasn't really a system uh until they found

out well you know it'd be Nice to have some sort of way of finding out you know checking or valid verifying you know um coin checking somebody like that right a little class right yeah right yeah I don't know what class is what OTC class I don't know who who is in your class with you you know then you can start mixing and matching names yeah um but that was it and until just recently I was actually deployed in Afghanistan with uh GRS and uh former unique I was there working in another division for the

agency and he's like hey did you get your knife I was like what what knife your unit knife was like I don't know we had a knife and uh yeah how's your OTC number and your your number in it your operator number I was like I didn't even know we had such a thing he's like yeah they had this thing and they gave everybody numbers and class dates and All this stuff and now there's a knife so the knife is pretty cool though it's a bob Horrigan knife um so uh uh I actually have when

I left when I retired he was making knives and he gave me one a knife that he made Bob Horgan for going away retirement gift and now they now he's obviously died in Iraq I think um died on a hit in Iraq uh Iraq or Afghanistan I'm not sure Um but um yeah most of the guys will know that story I don't know I wasn't there so I hear things and I just know that he he it was one of the casualties in one of the hits in in the G watt time frame um but

yeah yeah I mean a knife it wasn't and it was a homemade knife he is great knife and he wasn't that market hadn't really caught on yet he was just Making him and his brother his brother's still making them um and uh yeah I have the rich one of his original knives that he made and then that's the one they modeled after uh to be the unit knife and then has your OTC class number and then your operator number and all kinds of stuff and I I can't remember what mine is um I'd have to

look it up yeah Um but yeah um so yeah it's pretty cool I mean I didn't know about it then I know about it now um yeah because it's like one of one of the nobody talks about it a lot which is great um there's not a whole lot of stuff out there I mean you can still find out stuff on the internet and all that kind of stuff but you got to look for it yeah Um so I think I think it's a great thing let's take a quick break and then when we come

back we'll talk about some of the operations that we're going on [Music] these people would gut your sister you put them on the streets of America they would kill every American scary is the wrong word they're just [ __ ] evil they would do it they would there's not a doubt in my mind that you're directly responsible for the Deaths of several bad guys where a Hellfire missile you know ended the life of a really bad guy because it's not only responsible for killing two of our officers but he was plotting additional attacks I have

the phone number back in Fort Bragg of the Widow of one of these officers we should call her and we called her and we said we Avenged the death of your husband and she just said Thank you Since 2016 U.S government officials overseas and their families have reported sudden unexplained brain injuries these officials were injured by an unseen weapon quick look at in 2016 in Havana Cuba at the U.S embassy there there was a rash of these serious injuries in which U.S Intelligence Officers and diplomats as well as the Canadian embassy staff you know heard

this kind of high-pitched Sound but really suffered debilitating injuries all right so we got the road TC they're showing up at Delta let's get into some of the missions you guys are doing over there so we're talking um early 90s uh presidential changeover has happened so we have Clinton in the office White House Um so the no war president is a busy decade ahead um regardless of that fact so there was always still the residual from Iraq so the desert wars were still uh no-fly zones all that stuff that's established that's still there we're still

there uh we still have troops out there uh monitoring the no-fly zone in Iraq and those kind of things um scud haunts those are still those are Ongoing that's the biggest thing so as a new guy that's what I get rolled into um there's so many things going on so daily life there at the unit every morning Intel brief no update or the beginning of the week at least until uh updates what's the hottest thing uh going on in the world but what's the hottest thing on the ticket for us right and then the rest

of the week kind of just mirrors training towards those objectives Um call outs could happen at any time during that time for any one of those things or any other number of things so that's kind of kind of what we're getting ready for so when I show up early 90s um get to my Squadron uh get to the team and we have uh several things going on we have uh well so Bin Laden was always a thing that's been going on since the late What 80s he's been on the FBI Most Wanted list since then

right so that's that's almost not an issue anymore it's like whatever he's just still there on the most wanted list um of course the 80s and all the things that are coming out of the 80s uh all the attacks in New York and everything that's happening and those are all kind of things that have happened but nobody's tying those things Together interesting thing about that as we used to say we're in just a normal conversation and we're traveling around the world and saying well if the bad guys only knew how easy it would be to

get a play in a fight getting a plane to fly into unit who who knows where DC obviously those are the big targets like that and just because at the time um it's easy to get on a plane and go Anywhere especially if you're in Africa or in the Middle East somewhere there's none of the TSA stuff that you see nowadays or even in those countries now it's a little bit more stricter but then you can get on a plane anybody you have the money buy a ticket go wherever you want do you have a

Visa passport Almost Doesn't Matter sometimes so we all had that stuff but that was some of the things that we used to do is travel around the world and see how easy It is to get from point A to point B in these countries without any official paperwork and that's how we knew it was easy to get around anywhere and that's a kind of sidebar discussions about you know joking in the team room about you know the bad guys only knew how easy it was to get around and uh how easy it would have been

to get a plan to fight into when we didn't mention New York or anything but we thought you know DC and all those kind Of big things um 10 years later guess what happens yeah about early 90s um I'm a new guy so I'm getting into the team breaching thing I'm a team breacher uh iron assault team loved it um spent most of my time on the Range either shooting guns or blowing [ __ ] up And trying to figure out how to do that effectively both of them um becoming the best at whatever it

is I was doing right um and blew myself up a couple times in the in the process um it's like how close can you get to these things right yeah no yeah so we did have technical folks to help us with the the sensors and all that stuff but you know bonehead knuckle dragger Operator you know it's like well let me see if I can get closer and until you get slapped by a charge then okay that's close enough we'll back it up a couple inches um but yeah I got into that so Intel stuff

um uh IDs on the radar um we still have the things in our rack going on the Hans Blick thing in Iraq the inspection teams Um those are going on we're trying to get in bed into those teams so we can get access to stuff in Iraq what is that uh Hans but like he was a un inspector or he ran the unit Inspection Team for uh the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time okay so he had these teams and we were trying to get in bed into his teams to uh to

go to get access to underground facilities in Iraq so we still had the no-fly zone going on the post Gulf War stuff still you know Established with the no-fly zones um my Deeds on the radar he's in the Intel reports Pablo Escobar is being hunted in Colombia um what other things are going on well let's let's start with let's start with Iraq so you guys were embedding with these teams did you get in not me I was a new guy so most of the senior guys were able to you know a little bit more experience

to blend in Uh and they were you know in the unit long or so they were obviously given a lot more uh clout cover to do that kind of stuff more relaxed I was I was a new guy concentrating on getting good at basic stuff at that point okay I'm still not able to talk to anybody um that's like that's kind of a so you're you're allowed to talk I mean it's not like hey shut the [ __ ] up new guy but um but shut the [ __ ] up new guy what do you

Know around just listen and learn right those are the first you know year that you're there out of OTC um what do you think you know at all by then um and then it you just that's the beginning of it all really uh so um that's what's going on in Iraq we get people on those teams um what is the first operation that you personally went on with your unit Uh shoot um I trained for all of those but the so so it's a rotational thing right so the first ones were all those but in

the rotation that the squadrons are rotating through the operational side um those are the ones the first one that I was on that didn't go was the id'd hit was in Mogadishu that totally started different than what it ended up to be so if you think back during those times at Clinton and stuff like that um it was in 92 so I get to a squadron in 91 and 92 I'm still a new guy and you know it's the coolest thing ever that I've experienced and I'm just loving life at this point um just being

there and and being part of the team and all this stuff um The initial call out was was uh extremely low Biz so it was like The Dirty Dozen right 13 guys an assault troop uh or some assault team is going to go in uh in one night grab them and then get them out right um AirLand at mogadishi International Airport find them fix them grab them take them right and then if we had the flex then it was Flex that was all the rehearsals at that point that was that's How that was going down

um uh General Boykin then Colonel Boykin unit Commander at the time um we go through all the drills and we're practicing and rehearsing for vehicle interdiction which is a whole new animal with uh the minimal um like aircraft we were going to take so the whole thing was initially minimum signature 13 assaulters within the supporting Package Air Cruise I don't remember how many little birds were taking in Blackhawks but those are part of the package and then a support element to get everybody on on the ground and off uh there was other options to go

from a Seaborn platform off the coast we just that was discussed and then really we kind of focused on air landing and then offloading the little birds and the Blackhawks go to a Target and then chase Them until we found them if we had a dry hole on the first or second or whatever right that was all what the training was all about shut down brag for all that train it was the best time ever that never would I mean that's when you know you're in a place that has clout right yeah shut down Fort

Bragg training area um and we have free reign to do everything we needed to do vehicle interdiction uh Airborne interdiction From helos live fire all this stuff um I remember at the time the uh uh had the new desert boots at the time so we're just so we didn't have too much of a signature flying around in the Fort Bragg area everybody stayed in their Woodland camouflage bdus at the time and then because I wanted to break in my boots I didn't want to save my boots till deployment I wore my my boots the tan

Desert boots because we're going to go in and desert uh dcas um and so that kind of set the whole stage for everybody wearing desert boots to break any boots if you don't want to go you know on the mission and that's the first time you put your new boots on and break in your boots so that became like a the style yeah the time um but we flew around did all that stuff I mean and in in that kind of training uh Task Force pilots are trying to do things that they didn't do yet

it's like okay let's see how let's try to figure this out um you know uh pretty dangerous training right uh Blackhawks trying to get into tight spaces you know in the uh the mount site there at Fort Bragg um Trying to support the mission you know that kind of stuff uh Little Birds almost coming falling out of the sky just just because of the weight alone that we were putting on the birds you know and the lift capacity of the birds and all that stuff um I initially was the team I was on uh was

going to be uh so 13 assaulters that's it so but amongst the 13 assaulters uh I was on a Team that was supposed to be a blocking position around the target target area um so on a little bird there's three of us took away one pilot because there was we needed the weight to carry uh mag 48s the ammo to go with back 48s I had a saw with a backpack full of ammo fast ropes the Carl Gustav's the at-4s the Claymores a little bit of concertina wire and so with three guys at 200 plus

Pounds with all their kit right so and then it was a flex flexible thing so if you were a blocking position um literally was set up put clamors around basic you know back to basic infantry skills clamor's out and then as soon as you leave you know don't recover anything crack the Claymores and then get back on birds and go so that was going to be that's how it was rehearsed that's how it was going down the First mission planning went strictly that way um minimal signature I don't even know so c141 star lifters were

the airlift at the time I don't even think they're in use anymore before my time yeah yeah so it was three or four of those I don't remember how many of those to get aircraft and the assaulters and the support elements on the ground uh for that one night just one night on the Ground find them fix them place them up take them back um the best training ever uh and unfortunately we didn't get we didn't get to go during our time frame so um next Squadron gets it by the time it comes around to

deployment time and now the plan is to hide within this Whole assault Force the Army from Germany and the Marines on the ground and everything else we're gonna embed this you know hide amongst the noise with the Task Force Ranger that eventually went in which is another Squadron um and they were doing great things I mean the whole way through that whole thing and I'm only getting the the feedback because I'm I'm a breacher right so I'm Talking to uh the breachers on the ground the senior breacher that was on the ground he's saying hey

what works what doesn't work hey this charge doesn't work on this door and so I'm getting great stuff or he's he's sending back Target information and we're you know trying to figure out a charge that works best on this thing back in back at Bragg so that was kind of my whole interaction with that whole thing so another squadron's There I'm back in the rear with all the other breachers figuring out you know what's what's going to work best for them based off of the information they're sending back um and then we had um by

the time everything goes down and uh October uh um what the third and fourth um I was already in West Virginia we were on a support mission to to run selection at that point Um so that's where I was when that happened um which is you know car kind of hard to take one because we were on the front it evolved from the 13 guys to uh Task Force Ranger with you know a slice from third ranger battalion and we were we were when we had it first we were hinting or maybe suggesting maybe we

needed a platoon Or maybe a company or a couple platoons of Rangers to do the outer Cordon stuff and then maximize The Operators on the target um so it's got like teams like us wouldn't be on a blocking position somewhere we can be useful inside the target building we were talking platoon or two or maybe a company minus or something like that at the time when we left it and pushed it onto whoever took it next it might Have been another Squadron before the guys that left went then it ended up to be a whole

Task Force Ranger slice bunch of folks um doing great things for our country that was just awesome to hear what was going on over there um I was in a support role back at Bragg back in the rear with the gear um r d in charges then we went to West Virginia to do all of our other regular Missions uh training and training support and running a selection course so that's part of that's kind of neat I mean selection if you're on the Cadre side they're you're all coming out of the squadrons to do that

you're not uh you're not trainers that specifically do that they're all coming out of the squadrons to do that so you have some sort of impact on who's coming right you fill out Critique sheets every night on people that you see significant or non-significant what are they doing how they doing um so that was that was pretty good and then we left so interesting thing about when I went to selection I can't remember the call out some it might have been the the Desert Storm or something like that I when I first went to selection

at one point The young cats that were in pretty good shape uh left and a bunch of older dudes came in um still in shape and stuff like that but definitely older dudes were like what what just happened right well they got called out so they mobilized the squadrons and then other folks that were in the building former Squadron members would go do the selection sport same thing happened to us so we were there first in 93 to do the selection course And then October 3rd and fourth happens um we get called back we get

recalled and we get backfilled by other Squadron former Squadron members in the building to go finish so that was kind of um I knew when it happened to me I was like what just happened you know so that was another another moment that that that happened but um yeah it was good times that was on the initial thing Um on on only because I don't speak Spanish that well um the whole Columbia thing and the Pablo thing went away for me they wanted all as near best you know native speakers obviously if you can get

them but um at least if you knew some Spanish then you went down there to support that mission Um let's talk about that mission what was going on down there in Columbia yeah it's all training with the locals down there so it was always the intent uh hopefully for the local Colombians to to do the work right um but then train them to do the do the work the right way um with always a mind uh kind of a mindset towards well if we had to do it We have grass on the ground that no

the area know the ground know where the locations are you know all of his locations uh posture to do what to capture capture Mission if it came down Escobar yep yeah um so I was always always the intent to have the Colombians do it but if it ever came down to okay let's do it like Noriega and then all the other guys that Had been snatched up over the PIP works in the 90s and all those guys if it ever comes down to that then we have guys on the ground who've seen the ground who

know where he is who know what he looks like he knows what his security posture is and everything else so it'd be an easy easy transition um it's like almost like a pseudo at like an ad Bond we have guys there already that know everything about what's happening and you were one Of those guys I got the Panama to train some of the folks and that's as close as I got to that and I was just training the locals how to how to shoot move CQB all that just do the work right their assault teams

how to do all that kind of stuff it's as close as I got to that one so that's that's kind of been the story of all these things right or I it's like I'm so close to all these things but I never Yeah never got there it's like oh so close with so far um I was too young really a junior really and when I say Young and the unit to get into the uh the inspection um the inspection teams for the underground facilities in Iraq stuff priority goes to senior guys and they get the

first Chop on things of course they're all going on all those things um what was the other ones Um Pablo I did uh a desert um what was it like when Pablo got when he got killed over there yeah uh well I think the one the one book that is I can't remember the name of the one it's pretty accurate um he comes out of the second story balcony gets on the rooftop and that's where some guys that were on outer Cordon and security actually end up shooting him and then the guys come out that

were chasing him um shoot him again and he's on the rooftop of his whatever Villa or complex or whatever that's called um pretty cut and dry so the guys that were being trained to do that did exactly what they were trying to do and it was an outer Cordon guy that Actually uh Colombian who got the guy he was a Colombian yep no [ __ ] yeah it was kind of like hey who's that right like his advisor right yeah who's that should somebody shoot that guy you know the advisor no no no now let's

add and it's probably Pablo is the book The tame of the book it's it's good it's got an orange cover on it's pretty pretty accurate Um like there's a de agent in there involved I think in the picture of the photo that they sent everywhere there's a de agent in there that's a de agent um yeah so they're they're able to take most of the credit for any of the stuff that's happening so you know good on them for all the stuff they were doing down there I mean they're running The cases and they're doing

all the hard work and the investigation stuff and all that kind of stuff um so yeah that was um interesting to be just a part of all those things right um not quite so much Hands-On and there on the spot but just uh even the guys that went in um Squadron went in in Mogadishu and eventually just doing incredible things over there um the Rangers and our guys out there just incredible things that we're doing and it's just like um I think it could have been a better story actually when it finally came out but

the original story that uh the historian wrote very good in the Philadelphian choir or something like that very good about you know telling that story um a lot of good stuff came out in the movie that needed to come out I think um of course they had to combine some characters and all that kind of stuff and the funny thing about the whole this is my safety story yeah right when you think about it Uh so I do know that story and an interview that person who was there to tell that story or to actually

do that but it it's actually not as they they got to tell the story in the movie right of that this is my safety right well the the eunic acid are there are training the Rangers just you know because that's what you do when you're not doing anything go to the range and shoot or CQB or whatever you're teaching them these things how to Be better at what they do um and then the concept is you know this the safety thing was this right your thought process that's the best safety that you got the joke

amongst the unit and the unit members at the time even at Bragg was you know this is my safety right so it's not like we had car 15s at the time right and so very safe weapons so this there was actually a discussion between me and and all the guys that were in the That I interacted with in my Squadron my team and all those things other squadrons and other guys I went through OTC with and their squadrons um like the big dilemma I've heard it now in training today even the question was like do

you do you go back on safe every time you come off of Target or you shoot and then go back on save or you know those kind of questions and I hear that even today and that was the question then it's like you know the Dynamic environment that you're in well you know why waste that Split Second of a time to go for the safety and safety back on just keep it on yeah because there's nothing bad guys nothing but bad guys to your front so why go on save all right okay well that makes

sense I mean if you're the lead guy then sure why not right or those kind of discussions were happening so that thing was like this is my safety yeah those are the jokes and The sarcastic stuff we were saying amongst each other and the banters like this is my safety right it's like um so when that happens so when you think about it car 15 AR platform straight across the board you clear it and the last thing you do and clear it safety Barrel if you got a safety Barrel something like that point a safe

Direction pull the trigger Hammer Falls it's cleared Chambers cleared magazines You know has been dropped and you your clear AR platform really uh press the trigger Hammer Falls forward it's safe well instead of putting that magazine anywhere else you put it back in the gun but it won't go back on safe because the trig the Hammers forward right and any Air Platform even today if you clear the gun and your last step is uh check the chamber remove the source of feed you know and then your Last step is to put in a safe Direction

pull the trigger it won't go back on safe unless it's some other modified AR platform right um and then instead of putting in your hip pocket put it in your kit put the magazine back in the magazine well now all you have to do it's on fire already it's charging handle back to the rear and you're you're hot right that's that's The mindset that's what we're doing with guns right instead of you know taping them to the butt stocks and doing all this weird stuff that's not what we did so it was like well uh

clear it Hammer forward it's gonna be on fire because the Hammer's forward and it's cleared and everything bolts forward put the magazine back in the magazine well and now all you have to do to go hot if something happened now if there's a local indage somebody who goes crazy Jack charger handle the rear go to work right um so that's how that weapon in that circumstance ends up with a magazine in the magazine well and it's on fire and that's how they portrayed in the movie like hey that's a hot web sorry it's like no

it's not it's cleared yeah right but that's how they kind of portrayed into that movie so there is discussion with The Rangers like this is this is your strongest safety this is your safety right here right your thought process once you make the process then process the information identify a threat yes I'm gonna shoot it you know then shoot it right that's the whole process of that going on um so that was those are just all the things combined and that's how they ended up portraying it in the movie so it's kind of Kind of

funny didn't happen exactly like it did in the movie but that's kind of how that whole even all those stories get lumped into there um yeah good news I'm in touch with most of those guys still uh the guys that I knew that were there I knew most of those are OTC guys that I went with or was in ROTC with guys that I just knew and the other squadrons um Uh Kyle all those guys uh yeah it's it was a you know even even could have been even a better story too but uh there's

another book out uh why do you say that why do you say it could have been a better story well in the book day of the Ranger right it's more of a perspective on the unit guys that were out there there's more feedback from them right okay so now oh well and and and I I mean nothing by It but and total just after action like on the movie and the book they did the best they could with and tell the story the best that way they could with the information they had right and the

storyline based off of the book from Mark bowden's you know writings um great stuff did did our guys well and uh you know but if you read the book day of the Ranger which just was released a couple Years ago it has more of a perspective on the unit guys which you have to see it you have to read it to really tell the difference between the two so it's either like yeah we got her blood our nose bloodied um and bad things happen and when guys died um you know none of that is good

but um this is what we do right and this is what happens so let's keep leaning into it and continue the Mission right house had different uh a different mindset for that and that was it I wanted to just pull everybody out at that point um but all the guys at the unit were like you know next squadron's in inbound right let's Charlie Mike and we're getting recalled from West Virginia to backfill the Squadron that just is flying out of brag right Um so that's kind of the behind the scenes like it's not over yeah

we took a we took a hard hit and got hit hard uh suffered some losses but um let's get some more guys in the fight and keep doing this thing right we don't have them yet um mission's not done yet so that was in the book day of the Ranger is more of the more the like the up the I guess the the tone of that book okay It's like you and it's from the guys who were there um they they had a he they have they're all in that book about telling their story like

yeah that was that night sucked right but mission's not done yeah let's get back in it um and then it just uh you know White House had different different uh Opinions about it what was from your perspective what was the morale back at the unit after that Black Hawk Down after that incident it happened you guys took losses had you taken any losses no no not not no that was that was the big one um but Morel was great and it was more of a Upset at the administration that they didn't let us complete our

they sent us in to do something and I say us collectively as the unit right send us in to do something and then pull this out before we got to finish it um and whatever pressures there were from the White House to to uh get results why don't you have a deed yet um It wasn't always perceived as a pressure to do that because all you're doing is doing your job I'm going on another hit this is where he this is where they say he is now right or a lieutenant and they're wrapping up uh

the guys over there wrapping up a bunch of dudes um uh and he was just good at this maneuvering around there's a network that he had that was informing him of all the activities hopping all over the Place and it's a hard guy to find especially after the they were there for so long that that's the unit but the whole operation I mean the Tank's rolling from Germany and all that stuff and all this other big all these big movements going on it wasn't a secret that things were going to happen the televised Beach Landings

and I mean it wasn't it wasn't hard to figure out on his end you know that he should stay hidden somewhere Yeah um and that was the thing um it was more of a upset frustrated um at not being able to finish right after being sent somewhere that was probably the the biggest overarching kind of I guess thoughts everybody had it's like And we're ready to keep going but can't do it and you can't you know it's like uh you know it's like a canine team don't release you once you release your dog that dog

has to bite something right yeah and you got the dog has to do its thing um same thing with the unit once you once you seek him on something you know they got to finish the job uh and that was kind of the frustration and the attitude Morel is great um yes it sucks always sucks to lose guys and stuff like that um and it's not like you sign up for that you never you never think of yourself or your buddies as as fodder like I'm here to die unless you're not here nobody says that

or if it's that you're here to die you're here to do a job and you never even think about um Dying or something bad happening like that when it does you deal with it right that's that's part of that whole like the training piece right um so you trained at those standards like okay we're not Invincible somebody might get hit one day and when it does I'm Gonna Be Ready to to help um and really that's all it was uh totally different talking about the Medical piece though so T Triple C comes as a result

of that right because we were packing out in our ifax we had our own um IV bags so we'd have IV bags because first thing you do uh stop the bleeding obviously but then start a line because that's going to help any other medication going in for uh a medical person that's that's coming next right but everybody had one Um or ifax weren't what they are today uh yeah life hacks today are much more stuff in them than we had then um but guys are you know your cargo Pockets has uh back then you know

an IV bag in it or if you had a bag to put it on somewhere a backpack or something like that that's where your IV bag was right everybody does the same thing so it's in the same spot for everybody Um curlex um curlex bandages uh a Corvette and um maybe one and now now you carry multiples of all this stuff but uh maybe one uh tourniquet um that's it yeah so well scissors scissors if you can get it the medical shears uh uh you know Very basic stuff like stuff uh uh nasal pharyngeal maybe

that was in there so you had a hyphen I don't know if they had the hyphens that we had the chest seals the nasal uh pherom deal things whatever those things are called um so you have the basic stuff Airway stop the bleeding getting Airway and start a line that was the biggest thing start a line well that ended up to be one of the huge learning points in there in the medical Side of things was well if you keep putting IV fluids in somebody then that's gonna It's Gonna Keep the wound open it's not

going to coagulate it's not going to do its normal things right and then seal itself maybe hopefully um but you're going to keep bleeding out and that's unfortunately happened in some cases um but then that all went away so no more IV fluids that's not your first state we were sticking that was part of Our daily training you know do something you know stick somebody with an IV fluid So In the Heat of the summer days in North Carolina though it was yeah stick me because I'm dehydrated right after a day of training um and

or drinking yeah or that and uh yeah so that used to be the thing then it's not what you're supposed to do at all these days yeah I mean that's the last thing you think about now Um so a lot of good things come out of that um uh and then like you said I mean like you're asking about the the morale after that it was more frustration over the administration not allowing things to you know allowing our guys to continue to fight uh continue the mission yeah I've uh I don't know the proper terminology

but Maybe fell victim to that several times and I know how [ __ ] frustrating that [ __ ] can be yep for me it was demoralizing it I was so upset about when that would happen but yeah but uh but that's me yeah and I and I felt it and I wasn't even on a Deployable Squadron so the two Squadron the one that was there when it happened and the one that deployed after that Um I'm sure they felt all of that um and I can't remember any of the interviews or books and anything

anybody that ever seen anything ever said anything about that afterwards but for the most part it was just the frustration of not being able to complete your mission like what uh but that was the that was also well it was the administration at the Time they didn't understand how to use special operations and when you use them how you know you can't do that you can't you know once you go all in you can't pull back right um you know uh commitment once you commit you're committed uh yeah I've been uh on all those things

that were called back like um get to get to places and um And then the mission gets canceled you know and for me personally almost unlike a lot of those or unfortunately I didn't get to go at all so like for my perspective in that one incident for uh Mogadishu it's like I did the best training I was like wow when we first got the 13 right I was part of that 13. um that I was the the this I was like this is this is exactly what I signed up for This is exactly what

everybody here comes here for this is this is the Black Ops of Black Ops right this is what movies and books were made of not that I was thinking of making one but I was like this is what you read about and I'm a part of it right um so for me that whole incident that I wasn't able to even deploy was kind of you know that was kind of a thing I always kind of you know say well I guess I guess it wasn't meant to be right I Guess I'll the people watching over

me decided I wasn't gonna go on this one right yeah so I kind of resolved myself to those kind of things every time I was you know on a mission then off a mission on a mission officials like well okay I guess I wasn't supposed to go on that one um so I guess the first one would be um uh the all the Bosnian stuff all the paperwork stuff interesting well what was going on then In Bosnia so the um we we're on the wrong side of that one at first from a country perspective um

because it was it seemed like a traditional Christian Muslim fight going on um so we were obviously with the Christian side of things um ended up flip-flopping because they're the ones who were doing all the The Killing and the atrocities out there and all the The horrible things out there um so the first one I was I think we were on uh I want to say we're on like a block leave a time of the year we were able to take some leave and I didn't I wasn't gone yet I was there for another week

there was only a handful of us there in this water and I was in to and one of the troop commanders uh he just there's only half a dozen of us And we're on we're not on Mission Cycle we're not on training cycle we're not nothing we're on leave cycle we're just not those of us there are just not gone yet so we're working out we're going to the range we're just relaxing and doing the things that we do every day um uh one of the troop commanders comes in and asks he's like hey we

got I just came out of this meeting we got to do this uh get a course of action on this One hit um so he tells us about the um uh whatever the dude's name is over there I always mess that one up uh main pipflick over there yeah um and he was on this compound it's super secure and he's got this Army around him and he always travels with the detail um his place is a fortress the the camp he is it's it's it's impossible to get At him and we got to figure out

a way to uh to get this guy because for the the take him to the hanging try them and all that stuff um I was part of that initial conversation and I was still kind of relatively new um and so it was like okay he goes to this place he travels here and he travels here and these are all like Super secure places and he's got armies an army at each one to to protect them so this is the ugliest of all situations so we gotta fight our way in and fight our way out against

the Army right so me and a couple other guys we're just operators you know Knuckleheads um just talking about well why don't we wait till he comes out if you say he travels then let's get him When he's traveling so and then he's just got his detail with him um and we got that vehicle and addiction stuff we'll get him when he comes out um at the time is this like the top guy is this the number one yep okay yep and uh we had trained with the Germans and what they had done so when

we trained with other forces right the Germans the Brits they all they're all allowed to operate in their own countries right so they do other things that we probably Would never would never do because we don't own the terrain that we're on one of the things we work with the Germans on um so we go over there uh we're with the gsg9 and they had this vehicle net that they stopped cars with um last minute it goes up net goes into it just like I've uh like an oversized volleyball net yeah so it's just like

a carrier net right so the planes don't fly off the end when they're stopped When they're walking out of the carry right it's up that's for vehicles and we didn't see collectively uh when we're training with the Germans that we'd ever be able to use it because we don't own the territory where we go it's all non-permissive environments and all this other stuff um and I and just for shits and grins uh I asked to get one of their training devices uh and then contact information For other stuff so we can use it if one

day we ever use it and and they gave us one they gave us two um let me take them I took them upstaged to the cage where I have all my breach and stuff I was like well you know this man might not be anything one day right well we get this call out to do this Mission planning for this guy and that was kind of in the back of my head it's like let's wait for him to go get Out and it's Bosnia so there's there's streets there's trees on the sides of the road

some stuff these are things you need to Anchor this net to um cars on the side of the road you can use a car to Anchor this thing um and we can park a car somewhere and do these kind of things with it uh Spike the tires put up the net and trap the Trap people in the car and then assault the car right um And I we threw that out there I mean this other guy were like well let's wait how about we wait for him to get out come out of the the thing

we'll hit the first car and let it go past and you know and then put up the net for the the limo the the car he's in um trap the other guys with you know fix them and fire on them if they if they shoot the follow car because that's that's the car with the guns Um we got those guys you know sniper OverWatch guys in support position support by fire positions all that stuff you know seal off the objective typical Ambush kind of stuff right basic infantry stuff but with vehicle Nets and um yeah

we ordered vehicle Nets and went after him that way no [ __ ] yeah yeah and it and we set up a bunch of different things too but that was one of the things that we took over there to to if the situation was right And we can do it then we'll put up the Nets and we actually um use that you did use it yeah yeah um I'm just curious because I I just have all these things going wrong in my head trying to catch a vehicle with a [ __ ] net how the

hell do you anchor a net yeah it's pretty well I mean because I would think the car hits the net maybe It slows it down and then the straps bust so the other aspect of this whole thing is the car he tribes in is the armored vehicle right and so we went through a bunch of how do you how do you break into an armored vehicle thing so we did a bunch of testing and all that stuff explosive not explosive manual breaching to get into the car itself um and it became a real easy thing

about uh so if you can use another car of Similar size and weight right on both ends of a street and then um the net lays on the ground and then uh you can so you can let other cars pass by and then when your car comes it's on a like a locking device like a one-way locking device right so you stretch it up net comes up and then um car just like it a plane on the aircraft carrier that doesn't get so it doesn't Fly off the end it gets caught drives into the net

and if the if your catch car weighs heavier than the two cars you got anchored to It's Gonna it's gonna work you know it's gonna collapse in right it's going to pull those cars in right so the net gets tighter around the doors of the vehicle oh okay so but there's no way that's going to be able to drag two other cars for very far and it's going to have some movement right so you have to plan all your your Assault force and you know particular spot because the car is going to keep moving for

a little bit so all this momentum you know comes to Halt and then uh Nets collapse around the car they can't get out and then so how do you get into an armored vehicle well there's a bunch of ways to get into it but what ended up happening was um shotgun CS rounds right into the air ducts and then just wait for them to Want to get out right so if I do CS CS you know shotgun shells into the air ducts and um they'll want to get out pretty quickly yeah I'll bet yeah and

not a shots fired at that point now if they want to shoot them shoot their way out of it then okay Roger that there's guys with guns wait for him you know to to answer that mail how do you so did you guys have an Intel on his specific route oh yeah Yeah there's um that was well known and then there's only so many places in Bosnia depending on where you go like if you were in a major metropolitan area there's there's different routes you can take but most of these were Country Roads you know

you pick your target pick your Amber site um channel has them into an area wait till he gets on a single Road access there's A obstacle on one side could be a creek or a river on one side so they can't avoid to the left and there's a mountain or a slope on the right so they're pretty much stuck right to go down this road Park a couple cars if there's no cars on it and you can use guard rails for anchors too or trees and that place was perfect for all that stuff so we

picked uh you know specific places and times you know typical basic infantry Ambush 101 stuff it wasn't that Difficult that's like one of those things that's like you know mastering the basics kind of stuff right and so it doesn't it's an ambush I mean it sounds at first it sounds simple to me now I'm thinking about all the [ __ ] that can go wrong and it sounds extremely [ __ ] complicated with only I think what did you say 13 operators well for this um that's probably about the same yeah plus sniper support Um

because I mean if he takes a wrong turn then then that's worthless if he's late then you're hanging your ass out in the middle of the road with a [ __ ] net out there and I'm sure that's cool that's attracting attention why there's a big net in the middle of the road with the locals and then you guys got to be hidden yeah if you're in the country there's I mean what do you guys gillied up and There nope uh we're in Civics and they're the uh so uh the dress over there for it

was either western or um or uh you know traditional Muslim or western western wear so dark jeans not light jeans but dark jeans very European uh uh leather coats leather jackets or some something to that effect so it wasn't too hard to blend in no okay yeah that's pretty easy for a lot of guys over there to operate like that Um I ended up uh I was in uh uh Squadron hops through this whole thing I ended up in Squadron Ops and so I'm now one of the drivers to infill teams to their Ambush sites

so I was actually dressed like that with our other operations guys um to help infill all the all the assault teams all the the Ambush teams um so that was that was interesting just Driving around you know doing whatever we wanted to do yeah there is a couple of hairy moments doing that kind of stuff but we got out of them fine um what kind of hairy moments one specific we're coming off of a Target we went in it was nothing happened that night so we infill these guys in the assault team um we stay

on target the whole night Nothing's happening um [Music] nothing happens all night it's it's starting to get late end of the window all right rolling things up everybody gets so I I mean it's uh like a bread truck cargo van kind of thing it's pretty big like a moving van um and we're driving back so I gotta I Gotta drive to a spot park it and you know so that's like a cover stop that I have I'm gonna stop lift the hood check my engine this is all at night um you know kick the tires

just like I have a reason to be outside of my truck and the guys are jumping into the back at the same time shutting the door and then I just go back there and lock it up make sure that they're uh concealed in the back of the truck and the Uh my 18 Delta uh our unit dock he's drive the truck in my truck and there's two other operators on in Squadron Ops that are driving the front truck and another person there's three people in the front track and we passed this checkpoint and there's two

two delivery trucks and I'm in the second delivery truck and it's mountainous Road and uh first truck goes by and they do the whole wave hey how's it going we're Just delivering food and water whatever they're just waving and smiling and they could drive by and so I have just typical with our GRS moves too I have a my car 15 I got you know from the window seal down I have all my tactical stuff and up here I just have my regular shirt and so we were driving past the we're coming up to the

checkpoint and we're doing this you know hello how's it going hey guys nothing to see here right Now and um something happened to where it just alerted them to maybe they were just gonna say let's go stop him anyway just whatever they got whatever it is they were going through at the checkpoint we both were all through there and it's a mountain pass road and um I I'm looking in the rear view or side view mirror uh the driver's side view mirror and I see that the car Started rolling and it disappears because it's a

windy road and then it appears reappears and disappears I was like oh [ __ ] he's coming so um the guys in the back have been up all night right so they're a typical operator stuff right they get in the back and the back all the get your gears off and they're just crashing out late all over the place right so Um the car comes in and then I see it turn on it's I said maybe it's just under the car that was on the road behind us and they're just back there well then I

see the blue lights come on I was like oh [ __ ] that was the checkpoint so I get on the radio and I said hey there's a there's a car behind us that's coming up quick it's got his lights on maybe going to somewhere in front of us who knows but get on the radio and say That and I knock on the back and I said hey guys wake up you know get your [ __ ] on there's a car coming we might have an incident um and and so it when I say loose

follow we weren't following like nut to butt on the other truck but it was enough within Small Arms range to cover them by fire if we had to and they zip past us and I said I get on the radio and it's like uh vehicle's all clear it's still coming to you on the Front vehicle so you know make some room because I think it's going to keep on going well they duck in behind that truck which has got part of the assault team on it too and uh they pulled over and I was like

ah [ __ ] here we go I was like Hey We're stopped uh continue to see whatever it was you know lead vehicle stopped there's two people uh one's on the left side of the truck one's on the right side of the Truck um don't come out yet and so I had our uh our medic I said well it's like we don't have to deploy this whole force behind us you know we can we can take care of this I was like hey I got the guy on the right so I put my car 15

in the v in the v in the on my side of the car I was like I got this guy and then open mic in the vehicle in front of us so we can hear what's going on And the uh one of the gals we had up there spoke the language so she's talking to him and server creation and all this other stuff um and I told the medic I say get the guy on the driver's side if he does anything it's like take care of business on your side as soon as if you go

back to the like if you hear me shoot you shoot right yeah um and I'll do the same right and so it's dark and they can't see anything Because our headlights are blinding them if they're looking back at us plus their cars in front of us their police car with the blue lights going on um and I hear them they're like uh you know they said all the same things what are you doing who are you working for and they give them their their story um and what's in the back and I need to see

in the back so they had to talk them out of not checking the back we got to Get some place it's getting late we're late all this other stuff uh and then they finally ended up uh believing it or taking them for their word they go back to their car and we get all buttoned up and um I yell at the or I knock on the back to the assault guy assaulters on the back of the my truck I was like hey man it's all clear cops get in the car they turn around and head

back to their checkpoint and I was like well that would have been interesting yeah no [ __ ] yeah they've gone a little sideways all right uh because the guy is on the driver's side he came out uh pretty aggressively he came out with his sidearm with his pistol and he was for a while he was aiming it at the cab of the truck and um that that's when I said hey man you got that guy on the left I got the Guy on the right um if I hear you shoot I'm I'm taking my

guy and if you hear me shoot you take your guy don't don't wait because he's got a gun already on on the cab of the truck um but ended up working out we got the guys to the safe house unloaded everything hot washed everything and damn eat some breakfast and call it a day nice nice did you guys get the number One no a bunch of other guys um but uh what did I can't remember how one is even caught it was later on years later it was your he got caught somewhere else I think

in another country somewhere oh [ __ ] yeah you guys wind up using the Nets yeah you did yep yep we stopped a couple of cars um uh it's a Pickwick so it was all it was All divided the whole country is divided up into areas so the U.S sector is the only places we were allowed to operate in which is kind of problematic in the whole scheme of things because if we were actually tracking these guys but they then they go into the British section or the French section and then we're like we're hands

off we've got to hand over you know to this to the other guys right to their Forces on the ground so that was a little problematic in that sense but other than that the Brits did a lot of good stuff too um you know I can't remember how uh the number one was actually caught I want to say he was Germany or France or somewhere yeah um yeah I can't remember that one Um looked that one up online and find out how he's actually captured and taken to the Hague right on um but yeah that

was good that was that was good stuff and so most of the 90s we're going back and forth in in uh to Bosnia rotations all the squadrons are rotating through there um you had mentioned at the beginning of this that we were on the wrong side if I heard you correctly yep can you explain that well we were Supporting the um the Christian side the serbos croatians right the Christians um because at the time early on they're saying uh uh you know things that are I guess um so they're painting a bad picture of the

Muslim side of things turns out to be they're the ones doing all the uh like slaughtering they were the ones doing all the atrocities the Christians Huh yep there were Dylan's uh like uh trevoniza it's a popular one murdered the whole town almost um all the men line them up Mass Graves all that kind of crap um so then that that's when it finally turned the tide now we were out there supporting the embassy Mission at the time um so at the time early on in that whole thing when you're hearing the news Reports of

the trenches people have to dig trenches to walk on the streets because they came on the streets because you have the snipers there right and they're just shracking anybody on the street um tunneling through the through uh buildings so they knock down walls so they can don't have to walk on the street so it's like rap mazes all through all the major towns in uh Bosnia at the time damn Sarajevo all that stuff Um yeah it was it was a it was an interesting environment so to think that like in this one and like all

the upwarders and stuff like that we're getting like where's a safe place to run if we have to run like a safe house or a safe haven safe place to go things go sideways and I'm on foot I gotta get somewhere well it's a mosque right that wouldn't be your normal thing anywhere else in any other conflict that we've Been in right but those are the people that were helping us um and those are the people were I guess supporting fighting with they're fighting for right that's why we're grabbing all the pith wicks for all

the war crimes against all the people over there um yeah and that and at one point I don't remember when that happened we actually so when we're doing the un uh at the U.N Mission the embassy Mission we're supporting the embassy Mission just augmenting their security forces right this is when we're we're on the wrong side we're on uh volatic whatever his name is on that side and the Christian side um and then come to find out he's the one doing all the um Exterminating damn yeah and then at one point early on we switched

got on the right side and then um yeah oh All worked out damn I didn't know that I did not know that what do you I'm just curious you know what do you this is opinion I think we have a long history of sticking our nose where it doesn't [ __ ] belong As Americans and uh what do you did you think about that at the time do you think we should have been there I think about that in a lot of places me too me too I think about it a lot more Now than

I did at the time when we were you know when we were operating or yeah and uh because you're doing what you want to do you know that's what you're trying to do that's what you want to do you're doing it it's like it's like it's weird but it's like heaven you know you're like this is it this is what the [ __ ] I'm on this Earth to do I'm on this Earth to operate in a [ __ ] war zone Yeah and then you leave it and you're like what the [ __ ]

were we doing there yep no I so the first time that happened was when I decided to retire at the military and I was at the unit at the time um and uh so when I started saying that to myself like well what have we even doing it's like how hard is that right somebody tells me that's a bad guy go get him Roger that get on the helicopter let's go let's go let's go get this dude uh you know then it becomes a like okay why why what what what what what's the end state

right you're gonna go take the kill take the head off the steak right that's popular term right well somebody's gonna take over so that was another thing in my head it's like well somebody else is somehow the Knucklehead's gonna take over and we're going to be right back in square one right because they're not going to stop all the um ideology stuff is still there and somebody else is going to step up which you know which is what we would do too right yeah uh somebody else step in the shoes and take over right um

so that was going through my head too and I decided to retire it's like well You know I can keep doing this like hey go get that guy all right Roger that and then let's go get that guy um but then it became you know well I'm in the right I'm not in the right mindset I'm not I'm not 100 in it anymore um so let me find something else to do right um I was like well maybe maybe it's time To retire maybe this is what it's like when it's time to retire like um

whether it was burned out from op Tempo whether it was just done right I'm thinking of other things that I shouldn't be thinking about because otherwise it's like um uh this is this is a bad guy we're gonna go get him and do whatever like and then it became what was it kill capture I don't know it Doesn't tell me which one it is let's go do it it becomes it almost is nothing anymore right yeah it's like all right whatever you know um and that's when I said well maybe maybe this is when it's

this is what it feels like when it's time to retire because I always heard that you'll know when it's time to retire you'll know when it's time to quit and they told us that the unit the whole time was when I was there that Hey whenever you don't Feel like I'm going to work think about what you're doing and either don't that's fine just tell us and we'll help you find another place to go work I mean it's not a big deal but you got to be there 110 every day that you show up and

when it got to the point where um I wasn't I was like all right well maybe it's time to do other things no let's try this college life which didn't work out [Applause] did you did you leave the unit at all just that when I retired that's it so you got in I was there for 10 years yes so you weren't a Green Beret either yeah so when I was there I actually went to the Q course when I was at the unit you went to the why did you do that I'm curious well I

was headed that direction and I already done sfas and that's where I wanted to go do and I got to a point so I had already maxed out so I was a 11 Bravo grunt I had already done all the schools that I could have done in the Army for a grunt um so what was uh so it was like it's like wow I need a break right got to that point it's probably probably mid 90s um got to the point was like you know what I need a break it was right after My uh

sister died and I was like okay I need a break and I was actually thinking of leaving at that time because I was like I'm not in it anymore leadership at the time like hey take a break I mean find schools find something to do we'll put you on leave we'll put you go to some schools that you need to go to if you want to just to get out of the way just get get your mind somewhere else get out of this place for a little bit take a break Um and I so I

was looking and I was like I've already I've done all the schools I'm supposed to do unless I leave all together and go do the first starting course and then uh go to another unit and do first sergeant time in my infantry days right um and they would help me go do that right uh get me in the course get me a first art slot somewhere on brag uh which would have been the 82nd right Um I was like well I don't know that that's what I want to do but um let me how about

how about the Q course right it's like that's a long course that'll give me a big break rather give me a break for this whole this the unit and he took a break to go yeah that was your break yeah and I was initially going to Go to the Como course when I was going that's the fast and then get a q course day I was going to the common course um my alternate was uh the 18 uh echo of course the medic course right so or Delta and echo or my two primary alternates because

you get a primary and then an alternate um I tested out great for all those they gave me those so I was like okay you could do that and then I ended up going to selection for the unit go to the unit So but those courses were too long so uh to be away from the unit that long they can justify that because the medic course alone is however long that is yeah a year long or whatever um and so I ended up going to the Bravo course the weapon Sergeant course and uh loved every

minute of it and it was a break it was a it's you know from the environment that I was in it was it was a it was a nice break Yeah actually I met uh Tombstone there I went to the Q course with no Ray Davis yeah I would love to get him on the show yeah I would love to get him on this is great maybe when he's done dealing with whatever he's doing he'll yeah yeah he so I I keep running into him later on too so went through the Q course with him

he's uh him and his um his ranger buddy in the Q course uh just get funny dudes they're young and you Know I was probably what I don't know 32 or three or something when I went through the Q course um yeah they were good dudes I loved ever been to the Q course it was amazing had a fun time it was the training it was like you know back in the Infantry days again um had some pretty funny experiences going through the Q course do learning all that stuff Uh and no I didn't go

to active uh Group after that because I went right back to the unit but if I was gonna leave then I gave me an opportunity to go to a group instead of back to the Infantry stuff so it changed my career management uh MOS and then I would then go to another group somewhere which is probably more amenable to me to go do something after the unit you know kind of stuff um but I never left I just needed a break that was an opportunity to go to The Q course I went to the Q

course had a great time and then um went back back in Action Man back in back in the fight that was that was good that was a good that was a good break yeah um nice training environment for me it was no stress because it was a training environment and I'd already been through other stuff so it wasn't wasn't difficult yeah it was Different it was it difficult for you to hang up your career over a Delta um yeah so it was so so this happens in July so do I uh two months before the

planes fall out of the sky you retired in July 2001 yep [ __ ] yep um that's a tough one and to to for me to retire Um I was thinking you know my head's not in the game anymore to the extent that I need it to be or the the teams need it my my teammates need me to be in so maybe this is the right thing to do I'll finally get out because uh I was frustrated with all the deployments with uh Bosnia I was enrolling in college courses and then I had to

cancel on because we're getting deployed and then go back into college courses while we're back at Brag and then I have to cancel It and it's like oh my God I got to finish this degree for promotion stuff in the military right and um I was like well uh let me just get out I'll go back to school full time and knock that out and uh go straight I only had a few guns at the time I sold those I'm not going to do any no more gunning no more running nothing I'm gonna sell my

guns I'm gonna go to School I'm gonna get a real job that didn't work out so well but that was where I was hat in my head at the time how old are you at this point in time 38. you're 38 years old you get out you leave Delta you think it's a good idea to go to [ __ ] College yeah nice yeah I have a feeling I know how this turns out that was horrible I couldn't cope with regular civilian life in general but then to be at a University setting what school did

you go to University of Maryland nice yeah and just to be around the students and some of them were adult students as well um but some of the younger cats did you did you join a fraternity no I'm just kidding yeah you missed Rush week here's here's one thing I thought was interesting that so the the professors there and most of them are very well Renowned and known in the community at large this one guy is a history class and it was a history of terrorism I was like sign me up for that one interesting

right yeah I was like that was part of my history you know it was going to count for all my history you know credits and um perfect right that's like I know all about this stuff this I'm gonna Ace this one Well we get to this place in the textbook about where it says you know these These are the terrorists in the around the globe and we're identifying all these you know terrorist groups um and talking about them where they originate all this other stuff other history their current place in their the their activity levels

and all that stuff and this guy was working for uh there wasn't Homeland Security yet Because that's post 911 stuff but it was somewhere in the defense department for for something like that right and great guy talking about the the history of all these terrorist organizations I was like perfect this is it was a book I can't remember that I had plus that was my job right I knew all about these people you know over the course of the my unit time um and he then we get to this part where He's like this this

is what this is what America has to counter terrorism these are the the groups the entities the all the stuff that that America has to counter terrorism and it actually says in the book the units in this book as part of the response force and then they describe to some extent there's a a tiered system um the Navy group and then the unit guys you know those are like the premier CT Forces he and then he he describes Special Forces Rangers uh SEAL Teams everybody else that's doing all these you know Socom in general um

and he says something to the effect that um for the for the Navy side yeah those guys exist everybody knows they exist and all this other stuff I was like I don't know if you're talking about the same guys that I'm thinking you're they're talking about in the book but Okay maybe he's working maybe he's trying to maintain their anonymity to some extent right because he's he's he knows this stuff right I feel good about this dude too his history and everything I read about him his bio and all that stuff does he know who

you are no okay and then he got to the unit part and he I said these guys don't believe a word of this I'm gonna I'm working to get this changed in this text Um because they don't exist and uh and I'm okay I'm writing notes I look up I was like well maybe he's trying to maintain the anonymity of the unit I'm like okay all right so I give him a better for the doubt I was like you know I'm thinking okay thank you I'm grateful thank you you know that's I'm with you on

that right and I and I approach him after class though and I said Um I happen to have some first-hand experience I just retired out of the military I had special operations and I said thank you for not mentioning you know the unit and all their activity and stuff like that because there are they are they have you know desert one and all those the more publicized things in there and um he's a uh he's shuffling papers on his desk and he's standing but he's Suffering papers under this he looks up he said yeah he

goes he goes what I said thank you for not you know elaborating on that organization and he's he's like um yeah he's down he goes don't believe that crap he goes that's something they're feeding this guy's into DOD somewhere as a as a a fellow somebody right and he as he start as he keeps talking he's serious about what he said in the class And I was like wow this and then I told them about what I where I just came from and he said no you didn't let the [ __ ] out of this

so that was one thing to me which led me down this whole little this is the college experience right and this is a professor teaching this group of mostly kids and some adults about history of terrorism and then none of this exists which okay great I mean if it was his Intent to maintain an anonymity of the unit then great but it wasn't and he just was serious and I was like okay this is clown show 101 stuff going on right now so in the study groups for that class I told everybody in my study

group um I was like just so you know you know secrecy secrecy secrecy but it's in the book so I read just what was in the book over what was in the in our text And I told him about it I said this is where I just came from so uh and I have no way to prove that to you right so I could be just talking out of my ass too right and I didn't want to say I could bring in my DD214 to show you you know all that stuff but um yeah I

told them about it and they were like oh yeah so and they were very good about it I mean they don't know anything about the military or so they're this is What only they learn in the the class and like oh thank God like thank God there's actually you know we have some sort of response for all these bad things going on I was like yes we do and you know and it was all good it was all good with the students and they didn't put up a fight one of the one of the gals

that was in in my study group she mentioned that the next day about something else and she said well why can't you just send in You know those guys take care of this stuff why aren't they doing this kind of stuff and he's like because they don't exist what did I say yesterday and she looked at me like I was like don't don't push the issue it is what it is yeah take your credits and and move on to the next course cooperate to graduate damn that was the beginning of my frustration of just dealing

with you Know University life did you finish college no no I didn't either yeah so there was so uh I had this thing so I did have like a like so July I retire planes fall out of the sky 9 11. um I did kind of have this uh like I should go back I need to go back yeah It's like all of a sudden your head's in the game yeah this is this is what I should be should have waited around for it but who would have thought yeah right um and at the time

uh the gal I was dating at the time too I was like nope I need and so that's another thing too I was I was Mr anger man at the time too I was like I was bad yeah Um and but I need you know I had I I thought I had a good grasp of that like you know because you have you have to you have to channel that stuff right and to be to do what you got to do right I thought I was good at that I'm managing it and then but and

when I think back I was like wow God bless that woman because she put up with a lot of [ __ ] [Music] It's horrible just just stuff but not something that I thought like as a good boyfriend I should be doing right uh just angry uh so that caused me to do some things I probably wouldn't have done otherwise just just disrespectful things uh you know normal man stuff right not holding the door open long enough or something like that or you know or get a door for her at a car or Something like

that but she stuck with me through that whole thing I was you know totally angry man but then even through the College Years she went back to school to get another master's degree at the same time I was going to undergrad stuff um and then I get this wild hair again to get back in the game and it's already going on so we're talking two years into it right so Afghanistan's gone down torbor has gone down operation anaconda's gone down and now we're starting to go back now we're switching focus into Iraq that's when I

go to a unit function and I find out they're starting a team or a company triple canopy and are you if you're interested we're gonna get starting it and we're going to do protection and all this other stuff and that's when I decided to get back in the game that way Um and then went went back with triple canopy in the Baghdad and started the Contracting game no [ __ ] and one of the bad things I did about that one was part of my personal relationship was concerned I didn't even I didn't even confer

with the scale I was dating at the time didn't talk to her about it I said hey man um going to Chicago which is where we were based at the time and then um we're Heading into Iraq through this protection stuff and she was just like so uh I gotta go I'll see you in six months yeah yeah I was like oh my God and I think about it later I thought you know I don't know what I was thinking at the time but after I got to thinking about that I was like what a

dick I mean I wasn't thinking about anybody But myself right yeah um and I thought I was doing good things that make me feel better to get back in the game at least contribute right to the to the whole G watch stuff um well yeah went back over there it was it was it was good for me um to do the stuff and then early days of Iraq you know 04 um running the gauntlet down a route Irish from Baghdad to at the airport right yeah um yeah just got really lucky running that that Gauntlet

every day so route Irish for the viewers and the listeners was the most dangerous road in all of Iraq for couple years at least yeah um so before we get into the Contracting days in the early part of Iraq let's uh let's take a quick break sound good [Music] next on the Sean Ryan Show to maintain or build rapport for a person who's been manipulating you and canceling not acting right come up with excuse after excuse to not meet you then I'm going to meet you then cancel and then all these other things he'll send

you a video sends a video for you to jump on really quick salivate over and um you know all these flags all these red flags went off and disregarding all Those things the meet and greet is going to happen with Darion Labonte and the Jordanian officer Intel officer unbeknownst to them there's like let's go out and performance mean a great line of [Music] then you did 16 years at CIA and you don't think any of that [ __ ] had anything oh yeah yep yep yep all that is accumulated accumulative effects to get to this

point [Music] hey everybody I'm Sean Ryan click here to subscribe to the Sean Ryan Show YouTube channel for the hottest and most compelling interviews that you will not see anywhere else I've also made a playlist of all the previous SRS episodes so they're easy to find you can find that right here