Presidential Advisor: “I Directly Handled UFO Material” (Ft. Harald Malmgren)

It's not not for any of us to understand the world and how the world works it just is [Music] It's October of 1962 the heart of the Cold War images from an American U2 revealed that the Soviet Union had secretly begun building missile bases in Cuba just 90 m off the coast of Florida strategic Air Command was placed in Defcon 2 the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States kruev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood we are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of

the Security Council be convoked without delay curtis Lameé head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets amidst this tense backdrop Secretary of Defense Robert McNamera called one of his top aids a 27-year-old whiz kid named Harold Malgrren into the situation room don't tell them what you think should happen ask them a lot of questions your job is to slow them down reduce the heat in the room and give us time to work something out miraculously the Hail Mary worked harold the youngest man in the

situation room ran circles around one of the most aggressive fourstar generals in American history and if I remember Correctly you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say "What would be your prime target first?" Yeah i said "It's madness if you hit Moscow there's no one to talk to." And then that's at that point right Lame storms out yeah no he he literally got up and slammed his papers down i can't I'm not going I'm I I refuse to run with this malgrim went on to become a top presidential adviser for JFK

LBJ Nixon and Ford and the fact that He neutralized Lame and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him you've been dropping bombs on the internet saying some amazing things jfk fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president harold had been tweeting things that if taken at all seriously alongside his credentials and background would wholesale overturn your worldview no he said Hamlet these are things that have Come down so you're looking at like material anomalous material debris yeah this interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the

same for you in it Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Islands nuclear test this is world history it's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever admitted to handling UFO material directly what did it feel like it felt weird enough because it didn't Feel anything [Music] he discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by deputy director of plans for the CIA and chief architect of Area 51 Richard Bissell malmgrim tells me that Bissell confirmed to him the existence of the magenta UFO crash of 1933

in Italy recently reported on by UFO whistleblower David Grush he did yes richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 magenta crash yes that's amazing if That's not enough Malgrim also implies that he was being tracked by the majestic 12 from a young age your name written in all the important books of talent keeps not only CI but you know all the majestic all these guardians they they also themselves to protect the world the Majestic 12 is an elite group of military science and government advisers governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the 80s

And '90s but this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name you have uncovered collaboration between Nola Tesla and Thomas Towns and Brown what source did you get it from intelligence we get into the Chinese science fiction novel The Threebody Problem which Harold believes may be the best model we have for the UFO story it's not just the atomic connection they're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech Development at the heart of it Harold's daughter Pippa would know that she was special assistant to President Bush

and on his national economic council it's now public knowledge through Hal Putoff that George W bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his national security adviser Steven Hadley as Pippa relayed to me a lot of these high-level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book a Chinese science Fiction novel called The Threebody Problem which became mandatory reading among many highlevel national security advisers in the United States then to fast forward spending time with my own father yes and discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days finally we discuss secret science going on at sensitive department

of energy sites across the country alan Dulles the director of the CIA the Italian mob Secret societies the JFK assassination and how all of these might relate to UFOs the relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father Angleton and the Knights of Bal wow do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death do I think so yes i think it was probably the number one issue in many ways Malmgrren was sort of a Forest Gump of global elite politics be Looked for me found me in the crowd brought me over and

he introduced me to Putin now I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting it became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratched the surface on you are now part of a network of people it will be known that you've been blessed if I had a choice I would have spent weeks with Harold going deep on his vast Knowledge of UFOs deep politics and global power structures unfortunately a day after our interview we had to rush him

to the hospital that hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks culminating in his tragic passing [Music] but when I was back in Austin Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone to follow up his vitals on the cusp of failure Just 3 days before his death he revealed even more to me things that will make you further question your reality if you ask me did I have a purpose yes in this final courageous interview Harold Malmgrren transcends his earthly oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to

humanity one that may end up being just as consequential as saving the Earth from nuclear catastrophe without further Ado please welcome this week's American Alchemist may he rest in peace presidential adviser and international peacekeeper the Honorable Harold Malmgrren [Music] different parts of the brain have different activities but you know that don't you [Music] maybe you should interview me [Music] Hello Harold it's Jesse oh hi Jesse how are you good man and I'm how are you is the more important question you scared me last week i'm having to explain step by step who I am how

I happen to be here and each person says "Oh I didn't know that." [Music] Well I I'm flanked by greatness and and and just honored to be here uh I'm here with Dr harold Malgrim who was a Presidential adviser to four different presidents uh JFK LBJ Nixon and Ford among various other amazing accolades you helped stop uh a couple of global crises and we're going to get into that um but I think for the purposes of this conversation you've been uh dropping bombs on the internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the

nature of reality non-human intelligence UFOs or as they're commonly referred to now UAPs and informal briefs that you've Gotten on the subject and so I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all of this and we also have Dr from Pipla Malgrim who is equally amazing and she uh was a special assistant to George W bush on his national economic council she's written a few great books i recommend you you all check them out and uh she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well so I'm honored to be

here with both of you guys thank you so much for having Us absolutely well I'm I'm honored because I've watched your work um with several people and you you've done an amazing job the the most one stuck in my mind is your interview with Matthew Pines well that that means so much matthew Pines makes it easy he's one of the smartest people I've met and has a really interdisciplinary understanding he can go from physics I'm not a practicing physicist it's not my job but I'm trying To like familiarize myself with Garrett Les stuff with Sabina's

stuff Wolfrram and Jonathan Gard but he can also understand the minutia of Washington and how it works yeah that's why I like him yeah he's unusual he is very unusual um so you ended up uh known as one of Robert McNamera's whiz kids quote unquote and uh just this kind of child prodigy but you grew up on the other side of the tracks and so uh I'd love to hear just a little bit about your Childhood well I was born up born in the middle of the Great Depression and um my mother and father were

immigrants from Sweden we lived right by now at Bay just off the Atlantic when I was just turning seven my mother said "Well this is the day you have to start working." So when you come home from school I get down to the water and bring home dinner cuz we've got rationing at that time meat rationing so I learned to use a boat Learn to fish learn to get crab traps i even had lobster traps dig up shellfish so every day brought home something it became second nature sometimes I had to stop and pick up

an ice big piece of ice because we didn't have refrigerators heavy i was still little anyway when I was 13 going on 14 was before my 14th birthday my father was had found work as a restoration specialist and we restored Old mansions in Newport around Boston particularly near Cambridge we were working on this big house he said "Can you help me it's the summer." And so I was working with steel wool and and some kind of solution to clear walnut panels and this big gentleman came in the room and said "Hello young man what are

you doing?" Yeah I'm helping my my dad he said "Sit down and talk to me and that was a little bit unusual why why does he want to talk to me anyway we talked somebody at school what you're learning about two hours later my father and said "I want to take this boy out of your school i want him to come in September and metriculate in MIT." And um we'll give him a full scholarship all four years i'm not sure he needs the full four years we give him All the years he needs we give

him internship you don't have to worry about summers and if all goes well we'll take him all the way to graduate school i said "Wait a minute i'm not ready to leave home." And he said listen to me i'm really offering you a whole new life he said "Yeah but I like my life." But Paul come to he said he was President of MIT and I didn't know then the whole history of the large role he played in the Second World War i think he was in charge of the war production board at some point

so this was Carl Compton who was the sitting president of MIT which allowed him uh he had the power to offer you a full ride the power to do that so we ended up friendly but he said you talked about things at The very frontier of physics and you at at 13 or 14 yeah he said you stunned me because you brought up what is a photon why don't we understand it why Why haven't we had a picture of it uhhuh we have a picture of everything else no proton i said I thought about it

and thought about it i didn't know Einstein's dilemma i just So I said it's something that operates in interaction with something else probably another photon and probably it's in Pulses and probably there doesn't matter how far apart it's just that interaction but you can't get a picture of it because those pulses are so too fast and besides just two different things probably it's more than two probably as many and that's the problem that you're trying to get at something specific when it's not specific i said nobody thought that so you don't understand you you Have

an inventive mind you see beyond what the biggest minds I said yes but I'm not ready to go home and leave home malm Grim displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to not only because he was too young to know these concepts but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally yet entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics meaning that even when separated by Large distances they instantly affect each other's states essentially acting as a single unit they also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another this is now

commonplace knowledge but Malgrim was saying this at the age of 14 in 1950 and while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in 1935 the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the 60s and 70s with Bell's inequality theorem And with the measurements of physicist John Clauser so how did young Malgrim understand this concept at 14 as a poor painter's son there's a bit of a backstory and part of my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my

father's extraordinary career but the key was before you met Carl Compton you'd written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on nuclear Physics so you'd at that age already read an immense amount can we show some of that correspondent do we have the This is amazing this here the the control of atomic energy so this is what they sent back yeah not only that to genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki see that's really interesting they were they were really interested in the the genetic stuff and you have deet Bronc is written

about here you know Deta Bronc Was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation but he was also president of John's Hopkins who's rumored to be on this quote unquote majestic 12 and do autopsies on non-human intelligence bodies and so and then you had all these studies going on at the time like the um uh Cambridge Labs where you had the Polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation and Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area 51 where They were doing a lot of you know human genetic experimentation visav

radiation as well and again some of these photographs are quite extraordinary and when I came across them in dad's old files I'm like what the heck are these wow and they're from the Atomic Energy Commission and they're are photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki these are geer counters is that right you were telling me last night this is Hiroshima credit US Air Force wow This is amazing so that's why he knew a lot at that age and Carl Compton starts to register the president of MIT that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paint bucket

for his dad and he knows a lot about photons uh and so I think that's where this began he was identified at a very early age yes as someone with a very particular proclivity yeah and then fast forward because you know I looked at my dad's career I look back and I'm like How the heck did you end up at age 27 being the joint liaison between the joint chiefs and the president of the United States National Security Council under Bob McNamera and JFK just as the Cuban missile crisis are beginning mhm and you know

dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made and he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe that's so amazing which is a story I Think he should tell yeah i can't wait to hear but clearly you had been tracked at a young age i mean this is a letter that you're receiving from Oakidge National Labs and it's atomic bomb engineering so that it's clear that they are like "Okay here's this whiz kid let's give him a limited information

set see what he can do with it and maybe have some sort of initiation path." How you almost you know serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's House holding a paint bucket i don't quite know i don't can't explain [Music] that who is this Carl Compton well he served as the president of MIT from 1930 to 1948 during that time he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Vanavar Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion of American military supremacy at MIT Compton was heavily involved in

The famous RAD lab and its development of American radar his top technical aid was John Trump if you recognize that name it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting president Donald Trump and John Trump was charged with investigating Tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States one of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas Towns and Brown's Philadelphia experiment but I was particularly looking for something which would uh dis be evidence of a secret weapon

which was a matter of concern to the United States but I digress for the purposes of this conversation with Harold Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice first you have Robert Sarbacher former head of Washington National Labs also one of America's premier nuclear scientists sarbacher is famously on record saying That UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb but Sarbacher also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Freriedman that none other than MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at Wright Airfield in 1950 but there are more UFO

touch points for Compton another researcher in California named William Steinman had been corresponding with Fred Darwin the former executive director of the guided Missile committee for the DoD's R&D board from 1949 to 1954 darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying saucers at the highest level dr vanavar Bush Dr lloyd Burkner Dr robert F reinhardt Dr eric A walker Dr john von Noman and one Dr carl T compton finally when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve Compton's records he received a Reply back in April

of 2014 quote unquote records which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed August 30th 2006 why would the FBI destroy a file on an innocent university professor and why would they have a file on him in the first place those are good questions and how did little Harold Malgrim somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's house a couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program that might be an even better question well and he had gone on to

work with Tom Shelling who was father of game theory yes application to conflict resolution across many different things but nuclear um and working with many Nobel Prize winners including Sir John Hicks at Oxford um and so I think when Kennedy came in he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners and he asked them "Who's your Brightest kid?" And dad's name just kept showing up on the list it's fascinating so then okay what what happens so you're recognized by Carl Compton you have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy Commission how do you end up from that

situation to the situation room during the Cuban missile crisis as you know the youngest person in the room yeah I'm still trying to reconstruct how that happened i was still a good athlete and A really top student i was ranked as first along with another person who later became chief justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court i had moved from physics to economics because I thought I have my parents need help and I get older i need to do something makes money economics sounds like money so I got a grant from Yale to go to

go somewhere and I wanted to go to Oxford as a dream and um I went there really fell in love With it um I didn't really study anything specific i went to everything mhm and um and then I met a lady there who was American and those things happened um got pretty attached then I came back from after my one year grant to Harvard and um after I was partly way through the first term M George Bundy who was then dean had me and he said "We hear you taking you to leave again to go

back to Oxford But we want to offer you something special we'll give you three years all expenses including summer and all you have to do is write a book you don't have to attend any classes if you write the book we'll almost certainly publish it and that will be your PhD and this is at Harvard yeah so that's a great deal yeah he said it was a great he said it a great deal and I said yeah But my brain was somewhat clouded by this girl but um also Oxford offered me they said just come

here but we'll take care of you you can do your PhD here and um so I did that married that girl was mother and um you know there's always an element of frailty um in unexpected ways in particularly among males but at Oxford Sir John Hooks decided well he And his wife invited me to dinner and she explained she was a public finance expert so she decided to explain to me her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come along once every 25 30 40 years she said at Yale you you

went deep into mathematical economics so I told my husband that you got to convince this young man to just dump all that mathematics in a storage shed and start working more fundamentally at Behavioral economics and um he did I remember the first paper I gave him was really a moment of insight i gave this paper nine pages roughly full of math and he said this looks very interesting that come back next week after I've read it came back next week he said "Don't sit here in the student reception room come into my inner chambers sit

down here by the fire." I Thought "Is this bad or good?" And I began to inflate he really thinks I'm good he said "But you know it took me an entire week to find it out how many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime are going to spend three or four days of your time of their time trying to understand you he said I think this is not the way to make progress so he said it's near the end of term i want you to go get a hold of a big Amount

of given decline and fall which is in several volumes and read everything you can before the vacation period is over decline and fall of realm yeah I give it so I came back he said what have you learned i said "But I only got to something chapter and whatever." And he said "That's not bad." The reason I wanted you to read that a dead run is because you have to know how it was written Given didn't do it brick by brick he wrote it at a dead run from his mind and said "You got to

learn to do that you have plenty to say you know how to say it so write it that way don't stop to see if you can fit it to some model and um so we had a marvelous experience and then soon afterwards he said they're people you Should meet so some of the best people at Cambridge came to see me famous names and then he said um Hayek Fier I persuaded him to come to Oxford and meet you so he came I spent time with him for me it was a big I knew who he

was it was very impressive um and then on another occasion there had been a big debate in the 19 20s going to the 30s between manus on behalf of the Austrian capitalism economist and communist central planners and the opposite was Oscar Langanger go a came to Oxford to have dinner with me we had a fight mhm centralization automatically degrades itself because you restrict everybody From innovation adaptation once you do that there's no change so you would be more on the Austrian school side yeah yes okay i I am too yeah well although I'm far inferior

economics I'm still at the same I'm totally convinced that China will collapse because of over centralization anyway um by the way in the 1980s I was in China for some kind of a SRI meeting Stanford Research Institute yeah And they invited me along and the senior Chinese very interesting this is years later said can we have dinner with you alone well okay why not so three of the most senior economic officials we had long we know about your work on centralization really how do you know about oh we had your thesis is translated and we

talked to Australia and some other people and we had an argument i said over Centralization will be will bring you destruction it's an impossible it's too big to manage anyway so going back to Oxford I finished up there and there was a bidding war like an NBA or national football league bidding graduates so MIT and Stanford and Harvard and some others Princeton offered me a post and Cornell said we'll trump the others we'll offer you a a new Chair just endowed now so you will you can bypass the normal process of several years from assistant

professor associate professor eventually you can start at the top so I okay I'll I accept and I came to Cornell with Pipper's mother Pippa was born in May of that year and Um we were living in the house of Nabacov the Russian author wow he was On leave that I leased from him in Ithaca New York wow yeah it was an adventure and he was something impressive i mean all these fortunate developments happened in my life by the way these also became clues for me later because I realized Nabokov was um said to be a

CIA asset really and was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda and you know there are lots of stories about the intelligence agencies using Dr jivago as a as a Medium for fermenting opposition within the Soviet Union and so I was kind of like how the heck do we end up in Nabacov's house oh wow and maybe the answer was that you know there was already at that time uh an intelligence world that you know in later years because of dad's work in nuclear negotiations that again maybe he'd been kind of identified

early on but I I would love for you dad to just dive into you are in the situation room you are Down to the last 3 hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear go button and can you just describe what was it like in that moment and how did you avert the nuclear crisis a strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment under shipment to Cuba is being initiated i was appointed leazison between McNamera and MC George Bundy and and JFK i mean pretty critical job mcnamera's secretary of defense at the Time and

um so all right I'm there and I'm wondering what I'm going to work on and suddenly the human missile crisis unfolds and I get a call um Bob wants you to work directly with a small group in the war room i said what's the war room it's where the generals meet and decide go no go because they have the weapons and the white house doesn't have them and um so This is Bob McNamera he wants you to meet he wanted me to be there in that room as his guy they would know I'm his guy

and um I said "Yeah they're not going to be eager to hear from this young sport." He said "Don't tell them what you think should happen ask them a lot of questions your job is to slow them down reduce the heat in the room give everybody more time and Um if you just keep asking questions and make them think you'll be surprised how far that goes and and it buys us time takes the pressure off from them because there are some people in in that group I didn't realize was Kurdish they were worried about who

wants to go ahead and punish Russia for even trying so so I get started in that and after a few days got used to the group they got used to me they didn't ask me to get the Coffee they treated me like "Okay belong there." And I didn't say anything that made them i didn't talk down to them i asked them "How's your wife today?" So and we got to the last hours roughly four hours when JFK told we we put a quarantine around Cuba if you if you one of your ships breaks through the

quarantine that will be an act of war And we will take action being specified and among the generals there were arguments what should we do do we take out the missiles that are in Cuba well we don't know whether some are armed or not do we know that that they have the ability to to do more than we see um might they start World War II in order to take get a step ahead this was a time of mutually assured destruction it was like Really terrifying in some sense and um so we ended final hours

waiting to see if they were going to stop or not and there was communication going on none of us were privy to between Kush and JFK and there was one additional element the history books have omitted the Russian ambassador um he arrived that year in Washington he was unique he wasn't a typical diplomat he Was a member of the central committee in Moscow they sent him to Washington as the highest ranking politician in Moscow and in that position he was able to himself talk with the top people in the central committee um anyway in the

in those final hours agitation level was High we all sat down after somebody had coffee break and one of the senior generals sent a signal i don't know we didn't have cell phones an aid came in said "I want you to call Mary my wife tell her to load the car get everything ready to go and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place and then let's resume now gentlemen." Yeah it's like literally Mary take the kids and get out of here right like We're about to be at the end oh

God and and this is the bit dad where it's so important that it's Curtis Lay who wants to drop a nuke so maybe Doctor Strange Love wasn't so It was based on him yeah let let me finish the story they um so in the group I said gentlemen every all the thinking of the last ever since the bomb was dropped in in Japan all the thinking is about mutually assured destruction if we go we both get Obliterated does this make any sense to any of us in this room there must be some degree of action

less than that and they all said "Yeah well we haven't explored that." I said "Yeah we don't have any calibration any idea of small steps um or ways to convince that we're serious but we I mean if we attack Russia what are we but but are we really ready for that No um now if we attack Cuba and Russia thinks it's the first step that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor well that would be bad we can't know what they're thinking but we have to kind of think about

that or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at us but a little bit makes us pissed off and then we decide to unload everything and of course Lame is in this group saying "My strategic bombers are Ready." Um he he normally had all these missiles but his nick his nickname is bombs away i had no I had no idea what a miserable mean arrogant guy this was i mean I just there was nothing written a lot about him other than he was um super aggressive but is he chief of staff

of the air force at this time uh subt and it's important that you mention how he says my guys we keep setting them up to the point of no return yeah that's What I wanted to say that the um he said in the room to all these other generals and admirals um you can't imagine the morale problem I have every day I send my boys out there they reach the point of no return where if they keep going they'll run out of fuel and he said "I have to order them back." He said "The morale

is really they're ready." He's playing with millions of People's lives to make sure that the morale of his you know units are are okay mr president I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must but I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed tops depending on the brakes that's he said that and everybody in the room looked down at their lap they didn't want to eyeball it you know like Yeah I didn't hear that yeah it's like if you have nothing nice to say say nothing at all i mean he's also for

the context for The audience he was in charge of the 509th atomic bomber squadron in Roswell New Mexico that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki yeah well and he was in charge of all the fire bombing in Germany i mean yeah his idea of enemy is obliterate them anyway I didn't know what I was up against but you know it might have scared me but it didn't so I I said "Well let's all the rest of us let's Contemplate the options." We slowly talked and then it turned out that we got word

the Russians stopped the the boats at the point of quarantine and I said "Can we agree that we should back off bango and K said "No way we've got to teach them a lesson that they messing with us they have to have something to Remember we need to s we need some surgical strikes on Russia it doesn't have to be population oriented but we need to make it painful." And um I said but that leads us back into will they think that this is just the beginning of Armageddon we we we simply haven't had a

discussion we have no communication channel to deal with that it doesn't make sense i It seems to me backing off for now and letting the Discussions continue how do we avoid this being the pref preference and all the generals agreed and the the one that had called his wife pushed the button his aid came in saying "Call Mary back tell her unload the car." But but you also made a a suggestion that if you hit Moscow there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with and further if you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't

hit Moscow maybe they wouldn't hit Washington and everybody in the room Just love that and if I remember correctly you kind of rhetorically back them into a corner where you say what would be your prime target first and then they say Moscow and then you say oh if it was if it's Moscow then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow there's nobody to negotiate with that's we went through that because I I said it's madness you If you're going to start something and you need to stop in that system there's only one point of decision

if you hit Moscow there's no one to talk to and then that's at that point right Lame storms out and gets all angry is that is that right or something yeah no he he literally got up you know slam his papers down i can't I'm not going I'm not I I refuse to run with this that man is a really maniac but I have to tell you I did not buckle no I know you didn't now he had by the way just before that Raised the warning level to defcon 2 and it was not approved

by the president really he did it unapproved he raised the worm level to have that power i mean we surprised but anyway he may have had that power interesting anyway I mean when I look back and saying Jesus you know I I stood in the way of this historic bigger bomb i mean he could have got stood up and tried to beat me up i mean that kind of person when he stormed out what a Relief to the whole group um but it was the first in a series of evident clashes between him and JFK

it it was personal somehow it all radiated this is not about Russians only something something was going on in his head we learned later about some of the other things but well and you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well which is this crucial kind of juncture where uh you know I think actually Eisenhower Kind of left his his second term slightly skeptical of Dulles i think initially he was willing to kind of go along with his plans and JFK didn't quite know what to think and after the Bay of Pigs it was

really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of you know quote unquote deep state and uh they had sort of their own plans and they re they really wanted to uh oust uh Castro and and Gavvara and then you had JFK and and he felt like This whole thing was just botched and they they send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution but it's kind of half done and the exiles are actually left kind of isolated doesn't quite work out and then you have this rift where you

have people like Curtis Lame and Allen Dulles in complete loggerheads with JFK jfk gets angry he says "I want to scatter the CIA to the winds." President saying he's going to bring the CIA into 1,000 pieces Is that roughly right yeah that's right so this this was the prelude this that period to what became a flash of how do we respond when we have an excuse and the main said at least let me send my bombers up to some strategic facilities of the Russians but how do you sort out for the Russians point of view

bombers coming at us we don't know their trajectory we can't study that it's not Like a missile you know once it's fired you know where it's going so high risk and I said this doesn't make sense so everybody agreed except and he blew up when he thought he was going to dominate well I mean I didn't know that this was a moment of history and that somehow my argument is one but on the Other hand I thought this is why Maximus sent me down here mhm well that seems it's such an act of genius to

him on his part to to call you in as a 27y old to stagnate these sort of more aggressive you know guys like Curtis Lame and you think of the way Robert McNamera is depicted in like you know Errol Morris's fog of war just as an example and he's seen as this sort of wararmonger and this you know cuts completely against that vimemer do you mean to say that Instead of killing 100,000 burning to that 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night we should have burned to death a lesser number or none and then had

our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands is that what you're proposing yeah yeah now his instruction he said these guys are coming in that room cuz some of them Have sidearms that are fully loaded with the safety off oh my god they're hot to go said your task is to lower the temperature yeah wow and see if you can't stretch it out give us time to work something out what foresight on his part johnston Island was the center of launch and experimental activity for the 1962 high alitude

weapon effects testing termed operation fishbowl [Music] running from April to October of 1962 Operation Dominic was a classified American program conducting 31 nuclear test explosions in the Marshall Islands these tests were designed to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes in space and near space one of these tests Starfish Prime created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over 1,400 km knocked out Street lights triggered burglar alarms and caused electrical surges in nearby Hawaii it also produced an artificial aurora visible from Hawaii to New Zealand and it even created a man-made radiation belt similar to

the Van Allen belt that destroyed multiple satellites the last few tests of this series were the Bluegill tests which involved a unique X-raybased missile defense system and Harold was put in charge of doing all of the cost assessments for this Test tell us about the the Bluegill triple prime test well I arrived in Washington summer of 62 in 61 there were two highlevel um tests of an incoming missile and a interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it those two tests failed summer of 62 I arrived and first I'm in the middle of

this missile crisis and then before it's barely over hell would you set up a small group And we'll give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti-missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future i said "Yeah that's something that DARPA should do with a bastard." They said "No no what we want is a concise top back of the envelope calculation what should be the elements of it what would it cost and how much would it cost for the enemy to offset it?" I said "Okay I'm taking on." And I Got

that assignment i'm thinking "Holy cow um this is huge." And they gave me these people in the joint chiefs of staff in the weapons evaluation group who am I talking to these guys missile defense was a major priority for the United States in the heart of the Cuban missile crisis while American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets the US still didn't have precise ways of defending against a nuclear attack but there were Some novel ideas in missile defense at the time in 1961 the Rand Corporation wrote a report called Some New Considerations Concerning

the Nuclear Test Ban which highlighted the susceptibility of the US ICBM re-entry vehicles to high energy X-rays to say this is a piece of steel and it's in outer space if you impinge high energy X-rays on this side so what that does is blows chunks off the inside at hypersonic speeds this novel insight Made its way into the Operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests here's where it gets interesting these X-ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs so I just got that going and test number three in that series in October was a success if I

remember the days it was while we were busy with Cuba yeah it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis actually the Bluegill Triple Prime so it was October of 1962 right so I get a Report because I'm in charge of this new project the same report that went to JFK now you can assume JFK it was read by Mc George Bundy that's his job and I knew if it it must have been read by Maxim and John McNorton the general counsel because they were all interactive and almost certainly LBJ because vice president anyway um lo and

behold they dashed down i said "Wait a minute i'm puzzled Here." In what the report you've given me you have a video videos of taking down this incoming missile with a specially enhanced X-ray projection system but when you did that you noticed that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen and joined and tagged along following the incoming missile down by the way can I just interject because for me and I'm I kind of got my dad a little up to speed on the whole why is Congress pursuing nonhuman intelligence why are

they passing whistleblower legislation um and so when we started to talk about this and so he says there's this orb around the missile and I'm like so didn't you think that was weird and I realized that actually I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't they knew it Wasn't Russian they knew it wasn't in those days it was never going to be Chinese they knew it wasn't a threat so dad said "Yeah we called it a tagalong." I'm like "A tagalong?" Like "Didn't you ask what it

was?" And and he's sort of replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked any questions at that time and they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions when I saw this object which I call a tag along that's What you would call them tag alongs wow what else so that it's so casual that you just call them tag along that's why I think they were so inured to seeing them they were like "Yeah tag along." The UFO nuclear connection was a complete open secret among top military brass in the 50s and 60s

in a 1952 Look magazine article titled The Hunt for the Flying Saucer chief UFO investigator for the Air Force Captain Edward J rupelt is quoted saying that many of the sightings Reported had originated at one atomic weapons related site or another all around the country in fact while the Operation Dominic tests were going on in 1962 an AVCO MarkV re-entry vehicle attached to an Atlas 8F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic Missile Range in September this is the footage that was taken from that [Music] Test at the 4 minute and 40

second mark in the video an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re-entry vehicle which is traveling at 20,000 ft per second or Mach 18 the official US Air Force NASA postflight report even states that the object's quote unquote origin or identification could not be determined the very next month after this atlas test at Cape Canaveral the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Bluegill triple Prime test in October of 1962 in the Marshall Islands the point is this was the backdrop for the bluegill tests one in which the military scientific and political elite in

America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons anyway when the when the incoming missile reacted to this blast of X-ray um at that moment the report said this appeared to knock down This device they called it i said the tag alarm and um so I got really I didn't react to it with shock i I s thought let's find out what that was and um was there a recovery yes the Navy had recovered but but fell tell me about it oh we can't do that you have need to know about the

incoming missile and the test but not about the T alarm why not and and just to be clear you've Got all the Q clearances right not some of them you got all the Q clearances including and they say "No you don't need to know why." Well I had a blanket besides top secret and all that stuff i had presidential experience for the highest level stuff that comes to the president i mean I had been given everything but especially that they gave me a blanket Q clearance Q was for anything new nuclear Weapons why was that

separate because that was managed by the Atomic Energy Commission there's that was in law separate but it's it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of uh bound up in atomic secrecy and the Atomic Energy Commission the guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to uh protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets and you don't even Have access to the UFO stuff with all of your queue clearances two KC 135 aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage

australian intelligence analyst Jeffrey Krookshank who's done the most in-depth analysis of this test calls these two pieces of footage kettle one and kettle 2 a bright fiery object tumbles out from within uh the nuclear fireball you believe that that is some kind of craft just like the one that was following uh The Atlas 8F test but this time it was a real warhead you can see clearly from the Kettle One footage of the nuclear blast an unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball the official report written about this test at the time was

written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson Air Force Base the report tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage quote unquote there is no evidence to Indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile if that's not weird enough these videos were declassified to the public in 1998 at the declassification review the Defense Special Weapons Agency led by Dr byron L wristvet applied a large white triangle to the footage sanitizing it right where you

can see the object tumbling out of the plume in the Kettle One footage there's well-known animosity between Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore Labs lawrence Liverour ran one aircraft Los Almos ran the other the reason why the Kettle One footage was declassified and Kettle 2 wasn't was simply a personal uh difference in what should remain classified and what shouldn't then on October 21st 2023 when Jeffrey Krookshank sent a mandatory declassification review request to the Department of Energy asking them to declassify this Kettle 2 footage which had been sanitized the Department of Energy responded saying that they

were unable to locate the footage they were literally saying they lost the footage of one of their most important highaltitude nuclear tests and maybe all you need to know is that Bluegill Triple Prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized And classified to this day sorry that's classified and tellingly look at what happened when a Freedom of Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration generally around these 1962 Operation Dominic tests the exact request was for all records that quote

unquote mention or relate to Starfish Prime and any of the following UFO AP UAV AAV any acronym used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects The National Nuclear Security Administration responded the letter back in June of 2022 reads "It was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required." First of all who are the subject matter experts on UFOs second of all this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act

Request that specifically ask for information on UFOs finally we have an eyewitness of the Bluegill Triple Prime test who is alive today a former Navy sailor named David Noble White Crow he's spoken to UFO investigator Richard Dolan and look at what he told Dolan the witness was a man named David he was part of what was called Operation Dominic he was aboard um a ship called the USS Finch 19 mi souths southwest of Johnson Island or Johnson at the date is October 26th 1962 at 9:59 a.m they launched this missile suddenly he hears on the

loudspeaker the voice of the ship's captain saying "Uh everyone below deck other than a few essential personnel." and they're preparing for damage control after 15 minutes an officer goes down in there and he selects about a dozen of these guys including David and they're they're ordered to look directly forward toward The horizon uh and they were not allowed to have any conversation so after uh some time I don't know how long the officer in charge orders them to look 10° off the starboard bow so at this point this is a direct quote from David i

wrote this entire thing down he said to me "Lo and behold what appeared in the sky what I saw was a huge cigar- shaped object coming toward us at 10° and about 15 to 20° off the horizon." And what about the most senior Official present at Operation Bluegill Triple Prime if you're a head honcho and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky surely you can't just engage in business as usual well the logs of a nearby Navy ship the USS Summit County on 26th October 1961 refer to a SOPA or a senior officer

present a float being on board the ship that officer was General Alfred Starboard the Joint Task Force 8 commander of Operation Dominic he was positioned around 15 nautical miles from Surface zero of bluegill triple prime which is the closest allowable distance by the range safety officer william Ogle the Los Alamos J division weapons design chief was General Starbird's deputy for Operation Dominic ogle writes that General Starbird left Johnston Island at 4:00 a.m the night of Operation Bluegill Triple Prime starboard went from the deck of the Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from

Johnston Island in under 4 hours there were still very Important tests to go but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately maybe because of this successful UFO tagalong shootown well what they said is that your project designation was this you know anti-bballistic missile but you we didn't anticipate this unidentified object but it's not part of your designation so I said that that's [ __ ] so I said I need to know what you learned now I'm sure in different words that's what came out of the White House to the people running the test who were under

the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission under Lawrence Keys who was in charge of all this stuff he was head of the Albuquerque division of Atomic Energy Commission but he was Running everything that he oversaw everything that had to do with Los Alamos and high level test and he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather through adoption amazing it explains a lot that Bos talks about in some of his earlier reminiscences to reporters he spent all his summers with his grandfather interesting really yes yes ah yes the grandfather had a farm ah so he I'm sure he

had several summers of Space and look what's out there and now he's got Blue Origin it's so f it's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it seems right so two things happened i pressed hard you know you you have to let me know what took place uh-huh so they said "Well for that you have to come down to Los Alam." You pressed hard with Lawrence G and he said "I want to know." I didn't know with him that I was talking to Okay with somebody at the Atomic Energy Commission i

said you know I need to know i'm going to decide what I need to know just just to back up so you go out to Los Alamos you get briefed you meet Lawrence Keys and like literally a couple of weeks later suddenly JFK LBJ and their teams are going to Los Alamos wow so I asked the question Dad how often does a president of the United States go to Los Alamos the answer is never so what was so extraordinary that They all suddenly rush out there and this is what I think have great insight into

it was about the the tag along that's what they wanted to know about they weren't all fascinated by the test they were by the tag along itself so what did you when you came out two weeks before them what did you find what did they tell you i met Lawrence Geese uhhuh he said "I have this letter saying that I can brief you." I said "Thank you because I really," he said "Well the Test details are controlled by naval intelligence." It was interesting he said they don't share everything with the Navy Department they are an

autonomous entity they are more secure than any other intelligence agency it's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s yeah they said just be be aware the mighty CIA is not on their fully approved list To circulate so I can talk about that on another occasion but um anyway so I said "Well what what am I here to find out?" He said "Well he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk the these are things that have come down i'm looking at sitting on his round rock you know." So you're looking at like

material anomalous material debris but but debris or images debris wow No handling wow oh that's amazing at Los put the stuff in your hands play with it see what it feels like what did it feel like it felt weird because it didn't feel anything we know what color was it the color of something in space what's the color of something in space depends on the light in the room or the light for the camera was it uh was it Heavy yeah the objects were like I mean pick them up they didn't I didn't put them

down they went through the heaven if you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved would you think that it was at all different than like random rocks or I didn't know how it was retrieved he was but he said no this Is some of he said I have it on my desk just you know as an examples I mean he didn't say for visitors but I mean whatever reason he had it there did it did it was it emitting alpha beta gamma radiation anything like that I don't know I don't know if he

he must have known it was safe I mean had all this instrumentation around anyway um so I you know I just what have we learned because it Does pertain to designing a missile system what kinds of things can interfere with it or might emulate we just need to know more who else is studying this um we need to know about knowledge in other in other quarters China where Russia we feared Russia science more than China at that time [Music] um anyway um he explained though that this is not The first case of other unidentified objects

or phenomena there's a history now he didn't go into the history with me he just said do your research i said "So you're telling me anyway but the Navy says I can't know." Yes he said "Yes but probably you saw the original." My bet is that That part of the test the video will have been scrubbed which was but and he repeated "That's Navy intelligence they or another they live in their own world sometimes they think they're even more powerful than we are but do they still live in their own world yes that's what everybody

says there are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harold Relayed to Pippa before he passed [Music] malgrim confirmed that the entire Bluegill shootown was an attempt to down a UFO malgrim explicitly told this to Pippa his daughter and Jeffrey Krookshank he also told this to Senate intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell who I interviewed what uh Mongrren reported that he'd been told directly by Bissell is that we downed a UFO that was Monitoring closely monitoring that test and it tumbled into the ocean and that the Navy picked it up so

the American military knew they could bait UFOs with nukes and destabilize their flight paths with EMPs see EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields it would even locally disrupt the magneettosphere of the Earth if you're flying at incredible speeds in a UFO you probably need to use some form of quantum sensing this would allow you to use the magneettosphere of the Earth In order to navigate birds even do this they use aven cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the Earth and navigate home this form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a

UFO so when you disrupt the local magnetic field you could cause a UFO to spin out lose control and drop out of the air also UFO propulsion likely requires megavolt range electricity and extremely strong electric field strength over long Periods of time which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries i think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source if the X-ray induced shock wave from the Bluegill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead it would also probably disrupt the power source of a UFO the second missing detail

here is that when Harold was holding the UFO pieces Lawrence G had given him they Seemed to telepathically communicate with him he heard words in his head when he felt the pieces this is a very common trope in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand mgrim forgot the exact words but he felt like they were important and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subconscious he also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence G had given him he wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to

the Pieces harold apparently passed once Harold passed Lawrence Gis's test and realized there was far more to this tagalong UFO phenomenon than Met the Eye Malgrim had clearly graduated from his role as the missile cost assessment guy he needed to get fully read in that's when he received a full briefing on otherworldly technologies by Richard Bissell who Who is Richard Bissell okay so a few months after this series Of episodes missile crisis Los Alamos Richard Bissell called me up and said "I'd like to spend some time talking to you maybe Friday afternoons after work would

be good." I said "Sure." I knew who he was i mean he was deputy director of CIA and he was in the news a lot because he he had been the one who Helps strength works develop the [Music] U2 and Area 51 at the time was an atomic testing site and he thought it'd be a good idea to test the U2 basically right next door yeah so Bissell I I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology stuff i didn't know at that time his ill portion was that he was in charge

of the invade Cuba Bay of Pigs operation too anyway You know I knew he was somebody considerable scope of knowledge and obviously strong enough to run a big part of the empire of CIA so I sat down brought a bottle of whiskey out and said we don't have to drink all of this he said "I talked to everyone around you you were one of the best kids but I was told you were the youngest because you came in a little bit after The others and also that most of them were four or five years older

um but you were the star in terms of agility and and ability to work with the top level people without friction in other words we're an obnoxious you know smartass so said you're almost certainly on a curve where you'll continue to be at that level so there are things you need to Know and then he went into quite a bit but it was not only about what we still were calling UFOs at that time but it was about CIA operations worldwide the complexity um to times when the president and CIA were not working in in

concert but it happens when you have a big system like that it develops a life of its own what did he say about UFOs and And other world technology and then what did he say about CIA's the global nature of their operation well it all went down simply to they were opposed to anything which threatened their control and these unidentified UFOs we didn't have the UA UAP word yet they presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control and they interfered perhaps with what CIA was Doing with private industry there was a lot of interaction

between Loheed Martin and CIA where they would show up around specific atomic testing or around specific technology development or many types of technology development i mean um do you So it's almost like the UFOs are more it's not just the atomic connection they're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech Development that's at the heart of it yeah which is if you read the threebody problem by you know this amazing you know uh Chinese science fiction trilogy uh I saw the movie yeah it seems like something like that is almost the

case according to Richard Bissell wow yep and so what does he say so he briefs you on quote unquote otherworld technologies that to me belies almost uh human knowledge of these technologies not just like these things are randomly Showing up when we're making advanced technology he said this is real these we don't know this phenomena also we don't know what the Russians and Chinese and any anyone else knows that itself is threatening now at that time China was not as threatening to us as Russia we always overrated Russia in my judgment and we Underrated the

Chinese obsession to focus in on something very specific which was the technology race um so but anyway um he just wanted me to know that there were all these conflicting p forces of power in play and that they had influence on leadership in many countries not just Washington and and it tends to run deep Into local politics depending on where the interests were now he didn't mention Arkansas but when I reflect back I probably was on his mind why am I not on the front page of the paper uh at Ryan Airport or any other

airport with a load of dope with a load of guns [Music] did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along that the Bluegill test was actually always intended to be a Directed energy-based UFO shootown well tellingly Harold told Pippa on his deathbed and off air that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being that survived the Roswell crash in 1947 this being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash harold even told Pippa that later in his career he saw the video

of this creature being Interviewed and there's a direct link between the Bluegill Triple Prime tests and Star Wars or the Strategic Defense Initiative that later took place in the8s you see the Bluegill triple prime test inspired Edward Teller's X-raybased Excalibur designs which formed the basis of Reagan's strategic defense initiative popularly known as Star Wars star Wars involved a massive network of directed energy weapons for missile defense it also involved satellite tracking an Immaculate constellation if you will for UFO shootowns and tracking this of course begs the question was Star Wars always dual use and intended

for shooting down and quarantining UAP and if these very concepts came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash it begs the very important question are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war ultimately one can only speculate but it is important to note that before he Briefed Malgrren Richard Bissell had to have known about all of this remember at the time he was deputy director of plans for the entire CIA and he would go on to become deputy director for the entire organization its number two so he was likely well aware

of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell bissell also founded Area 51 in 1955 and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada test site where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early 50s so he had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection bissell likely also understood the secret UFO related intentions of the bluegill tests all [Music] along but Harold goes deeper he implies that Bissell knows about this other layer of reality a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to be managed by elements of the US Government for decades do

you think Richard Bissell sort of uh knew that you were you were sort of an heir to him and sort of a more like spiritual sense or something i think he was very spiritual and he was looking for someone who was somehow connected connected to what whatever was happening with the worldly forces h Have you looked Have you looked for People like that yeah everything about them all the time yeah what else did Richard Bissell tell you he said this didn't start last week this has been going on he mentioned 1933 magenta he did yes

richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 magenta correct yes that's amazing exactly that is such corroboration cuz that is a highly conflicted you know account 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in uh Magenta Italy i fully trust David Grush but that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then he mentioned it wow italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944 1945 and you know the Pope Pius the 12th backchanneled that so the Vatican was involved yeah and told the Americans what the

Italians had and and we ended up scooping it so he said this Yeah he said this cannot begin and And the you have need to know the background how did it end up that Truman transferred that that object from Italy the steps getting there was arranged by Alan Dulles mhm but that went back to what mentioned and he said the steps that Allan Dulles helped with the crash retrieval and and remember Allan Dulles and so John Foster Dallas and Allen Dulles are twins And John Foster Dulles is running the OSS the precursor to US intelligence

out of Switzerland and then I asked I said Dad why was he running it out of Switzerland how the heck does that happen and he said well everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of us wow let me explain after all this all these events a few years back when I was still an official um in the office of the trade Representative well I was the um principal um I was invited by you know Switzerland doesn't have a president they the leader is revolves around the canton leaders

but whoever was the leader That year I visited um the government about several matters and they said would you like to see the office of Alan Delos when he lived here so I thought it'd be fascinating about Beautiful apartment overlooking the river and we got talking I said how do you explain why he chose to be here he said oh that simple he told us when he got permission to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in [Music] Switzerland no American law could reach him as to something he did that

was illegally moral or otherwise in the United States So he said he was here all the time and it was to allow him a free hand to to do the most terrible things if if needed okay that's understandable he was a creepy guy now going back to 1933 the relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father Angleton and the Knights of Malta wow Because the knights of Maltar had their long historical connection with the Vatican and indeed have this special diplomatic status you know you can be you can have an international passport for the I

forget how what's the it's a something it's a sovereign state for a handful of people yes but it's all connected with the Vatican according to multiple accounts including UFO whistleblower David Grush a Disc-like object measuring roughly 10 to 12 m in diameter came down near Magenta in Lombardi Italy in June of 1933 1933 was the first recovery in Europe under Bonito Mussolini's fascist regime a total media blackout was imposed throughout the Stefani news agency telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government-ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor despite the

censorship a special Investigative body known as Gabonetto or RS33 formed to study the craft with highlevel figures such as Mussolini Air Marshal Italo Balo and Nobel Laurate and radio pioneer Maronei believed to have been involved testimonies suggest that the downed craft and possibly two recovered bodies were taken to the SI Marchetti private aerospace hangers for intensive analysis this secret research group reportedly drew up a nine-step protocol to manage the Magenta crash and Any similar future incidents the instructions included immediate site containment arrests of all witnesses and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention sounds very

similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell maronei long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin some documents on later family confirmations indicate Maronei genuinely believed the craft could be non-human in the late 1930s Pope Pius I 12th became aware of the Magenta retrieval reportedly fearing that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands once Italy allied with Germany through discrete channels the Pope quietly informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location this back channel intelligence set the stage for the Office of

Strategic Services America's premier Wartime intelligence gathering program and the predecessor to the CIA in World War II to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end working under a secret project called McGregor OSS operatives targeted advanced access technology including the rumored crashed UFO by 1945 the Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study wright Patterson Air Force Base Dayton Ohio many of the top Nazi scientists as a part of Operation Paperclip that the Allies had exfiltrated also made their way to Wright Patterson to

work on the magenta craft malta as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy initially when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded in the UFO story I had no idea what to think it sounded like a plotline from a Dan Brown or Ombberto Echo novel secret society associated with the Vatican and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy go figure but not only were Hugh Angelleton and James Jesus Angleton Knights of Malta and remember James Jesus Angleton seemed to be responsible for a lot of

counter intelligence around UFOs that came out from the '50s to the 80s but the bizarre Knights of Malta UFO connection runs even deeper after further research Colonel Philip J corso later famous for his claims regarding reverse engineering alien materials at the Pentagon in his book the day after Roswell served as a high-ranking intelligence officer in Italy during the post-war period in fact he was the personal liaison to the future pope he was also a knight of Malta he was also a main figure in Operation Paperclip and helped create the quote unquote rat lines exfiltrating Nazi

scientists and technology in fact Many Nazi scientists specifically specializing in exotic propulsion made their way to Wright Patterson Air Force Base after World War II perhaps the most powerful general at the time General Douglas MacArthur and his whole intelligence staff Knights of Malta many of his staff displayed an unusual interest in the possibility of a quote unquote interplanetary war and they framed alien related esquetology in the exact same terms Corso did during a 1955 speech at West Point General MacArthur told assembled cadets "The next war will be an interplanetary war the nations of the Earth

must someday make a common front against the attack by people from other planets." Chief OSS member and another CIA founder Wild Bill Donovan who journalist Chris Sharp notes was likely not only involved in the Magenta crash retrieval but in setting up original protocols for UFO crash retrievals was also a Knight of Malta Atomic Energy Director turned CIA director John McCon later CIA director Bill Casey Knights of Malta remember that FDR was responsible for the communications with the Vatican about the crashed Magenta craft well President Roosevelt's Vatican envoy Myron Taylor also a knight of Malta maybe

religious studies professor Diana Walsh Basula who has visited the Vatican archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye About UFOs isn't so crazy after all maybe she's spot on and look at the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO crash retrievals today joc or the Joint Special Operations Command according to journalist Seymour Hirs one of the modern heads of JOCK General Stanley Mcristel and many of the members of Joc themselves are all Knights of Malta does the DOE currently work with JOCK we uh work with all of the

security entities around the federal government Do you guys work with JOC yes or no uh yes we do okay there are Templars at the Vatican it's the residue of of the truth or the myth whatever of nights of temp the Templars but there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well well what I'm saying is yeah they did because because there so for context for the audience James Jesus Angleton was sort Of one of the original founders of the CIA dulles was sort of a mentor to

him he was a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy and he's kind of this eccentric debonire interesting guy who was also really just good at conniving and lying and so Engleton's father Hugh was involved with the Knights of Maul he was a member he was a member and so and then so he's Wow so he's involved in the Vatican which makes it more likely that James Jesus Angleton Probably had something to do with the retrieval of that UFO the Magenta Crash which was kept at the Vatican yeah I'm speculating now but no

doubt in my mind about myself you're speculating but there's so many connections there's even a guy named John Warner IV who is the grandson of Paul Melon and the son of Senator John Warner and he tells this story where he's three martinis in to you know a dinner or whatever with Paul Melon and Paul Melon recalls the story Paul Melon is one of the founders of the CIA and he's with Allen Dulles doing tech retrieval in specifically he says I'm in Czechoslovakia and I'm standing on top of a saucer with Allen Dulles and my grandfather

said look you know we we were in a facility a hanger and we saw you know a German flying disc and I said you know oh is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines and he laughed and he said no Basically implying saying that it was like this anomalous object and right there in Czechoslovakia in modern day Poland is this thing called Commto where Hans Commer the most ruthless Nazi who was doing the most kind of black world technology projects was rumored to be working on flying saucers and had there's

this rumor of this thing called Delaka and so you have the Hugh Angelton connection but you also have Dulles and and Paul Melon standing on Top of this saucer and when the magenta object crashed supposedly there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like I don't really know what to do with this is this yours and then he said no it's not ours but we should work on it together we should collaborate so there's there there is there are actually a lot of data points around this you start to build this this

picture up so said that too that's amazing and the Italians even to this Day um are amongst the most innovative in defense technology in the world that's so interesting so maybe that there's some inherited technology or something let me say tell you one backtory that is not well known in America when we look at the world we say the second most important military force is the UK and there and especially the RAF but they have really dwindled in Importance and I didn't know this till recently but I'm somewhat rather actively connected with the military world

i have a book coming out with essays [Music] on geo security of the last 25 years that's coming up soon amazing and anyway no UAPs in that book um but but one of the people introducing the book was the chief of the Italian Air Force and I Said that's a little bit odd and the editor said "No in the in the Europe today the most important air force besides the US is the Italian air force." I had no idea really so they may they might be more advanced than meets the eye they're more advanced than

the rest of them in Europe interesting yeah this was news to me but you know I think of Italian I guess the cars as being fast but unreliable and then but but wow the air force Well Northern Italy has worldclass engineering true German level engineering and they have it in many fields um and I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War the Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffa had been such a threat and as a result the Germans specialized in drones and I got into drone technology

about not quite 10 years ago and the Germans are very strong in that and I Started to also realize how strong Italian engineering but I think this episode in history is un it's not well as well understood as it could be and I just wonder was this part of what drove the decision to create what we now call the axis that because the Italians assumed that this super high-tech thing must be German and that began their dialogue and as they aligned that became the Axis wow and then again back to George C marshall and the

team That is basically cleaning up after the end of World War II and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced technologies they must be brought to the United States and that operation paperclip and again who's already there it's all these cast of characters and where have they been based italy that's amazing that's so it's so fascinating again there's no proof in that but There's an interesting line of inquiry but there's so much cooper Richard Bissell to add to the the Dulles Paul Melon story to add to David Grush's recent testimony so we

are building up this you know important uh corroborative narrative i'm just mentioning in passing you know this walking stick I have it's from a an old shop it's an old It's the same car but I was told it was Paul Melon's washing stick no way that's so interest what do you How'd you end up With that oh they live in the same part of Virginia okay what well I knew I didn't know Paul Melon but I knew all the people around him yep including um um his wife how how oh and his his um personal

um I would call him ran the fox hunt for him and ran took care of the horses and you know he had raceh horses everything that guy became a close palibine so I heard all these stories about Paul Melon so I didn't meet Paul Melon but I know more about his life than you would imagine including all his girlfriends oh gosh well but I have his walking stick that's so interesting that's wild i kind of I feel like we should put it in the shot or something it was sent to me as part of my

mission but you know I still don't know my purpose thanks Pippa um and so what what do you think the Knights of Malta play some sort of role yes in UFOs and what do you Think their role is ah now you're getting to the heart of the residue of that organization that still exists what form does it take now i have no idea but they still have the sovereign state identity do you think it goes back to the original Templars i don't know okay but how did they get the sovereign state the Vatican must have

organized it they seem to have kind of a lot of top level business leaders And politicians involved in the Knights of Malta that's right so something Yes i mean it's a it's a secret of society i mean there are all these secret societies um so many things over the years have been attributed to the Council on Foreign Relations yes i was member of the council for I don't know 50 years i I dropped out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them Large amounts of money i thought yeah you know I've done my I

paid my dues but when you get back to the Council for Relations and you dig deeper well wait a minute it wasn't really them it was some of them select group um through Brown brothers Haramman that set up CIA you know the different groups did different things and some of The great financial figures were involved with some but not others um it's not very different from the WF in in Switzerland different group but there's a Council for Foreign Relations Knights of Malta connection um I I would say there's some overlap membership but no no connection

anyway the council foreign relations has been diluted and changed since the days of Second World War and the Cold War It's now um much more diverse and much more defensive of who who's ever in power in the White House i don't know what they're going to do with Trump um but they have been they've been sort of swept along with progressive Democrats right so this is you just brought this in this is Paul Melon's walking stick that you ended up with i can't verify but that's what I was told these are the rumors what um

does it represent anything it looks very Unique well he had a lot of power so that was bestowed upon you um what else what else did uh did Richard Bissell tell you well I mean I think I've explained in essence there are multiplicity of powers in play at any moment and around presidents they have certain powers but they are constrained by these other powers and among them the intelligence community is very Powerful because it has found ways to fund itself and to multiply itself so you can't look at the budget and say that's what it

is it's it operates businesses legitimate and illegitim right so it's sort of this gangly octopus it's impossible to really capture and so the Russians do this too and they even do it in overt ways they did with the um this group that the leader was Assassinated the Posian Wagner wagner group oh Wagner group yeah pog yeah yeah i mean they do that's over they do it not over the Chinese are everywhere doing all kinds of stuff even in Manhattan yeah yeah so when when you weigh actions you have to take into account what you see

and what you don't see the unseen enemies the I should have been aware of that when I blurted out some of these Comments on UAPs and I stumbled into controversy i have no intention of Have Have you gotten any backlash because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter or I usually get it so dad drops something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full like full with people saying you know your dad is breaking the internet but that seems positive it's mostly positive yeah oh yeah yeah yeah she she Calls me from some far

away place wakes me up in the morning you see different hours and then you just blew up the internet i actually I said I leave you alone for five minutes breaking the internet i love it i carefully crafted some backing up language that I was not directly um involved with UAP research you said read my words carefully right now if you if you read them carefully I was not I Was saying I was not directed to look at that it was um but I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it and I knew that

eventually this stuff would come out and say "Yeah I knew about that." But I I used the words to make it look like I was backing away speculation but I didn't do that the words didn't suggest I was speculating i think this is an issue sometimes with uh people who are high up in government who Want to disclose certain things but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have or oaths they've sworn or clearances they have where you'll hear David Grush or something spec he'll say this is open source this is a personal

story and he'll have to caveat constantly with that and so if you're an average person you just immediately your skeptical trigger goes off but in fact he's trying to do you a service and saying Look at this this is Open source i just don't want to end up you know uh uh uh under the gun here because I don't want to I don't want to you know end up in jail you're giving your enemies fodder the thing to to keep in mind and as in the research I've done too is what you find is a

lot of this cast of characters including James Jesus Angleton who went on to become the key person at the CIA they all seem to have been part of General George C marshall's team at the end of the Second World War They're all involved with the Marshall Plan somehow or another including Kennedy and Foresttoff for a period are part of that and so difficult to prove but strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject well Forestall's uh was supposedly on this majestic 12 who knows how much of the Majestic 12 is true but

this sort of you know elite uh military and intelligence uh advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower and then George Marshall also There's this thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in 1942 where a UFO shows up and like flies down the coast and George Marshall was briefed to that and so that very interesting okay so you have and then the the other connections I think that are important to make with the Marshall plan is that was kind of immediately after these tech retrieval programs in Europe so the Nazis had all this advanced technology and you

had TACOM and ASOS one was you know signals Intelligence the other was you know atomic intelligence and it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology and if there was anything you know involving UFOs there that would sort of be bound up in it one of my closest friends when I came to Washington was an attorney named Tom Farmer and Tom and I played tennis together you know but turned out Tom had been general counsel of CIA Um and he'd been at again at with the guys doing the Marshall Plan wow i was going to

say it turned out he was involved in in the project called Paper Flip uhhuh were picking Germans and the reason why was he he was born in Berlin of a father who was a US diplomat but he spoke German fluently so now I mean when I when he was my friend and start asking you about paperclip but I learned later he knew everything he Was he was one of the people saying yes for him no for him you know [Music] do you believe that advanced technology has benefited from retrieved uh unidentified aerial objects so this

would be like the Philip Corso day after Roswell narrative the answer I would have to give is yes in two ways in one way we have learned that some types of propulsion for example exist that we did never never Envisioned never conceived um the second way is that they have revealed a higher level of knowledge than anything we have on earth and we don't control it now we only recently even where is it coming from you know we have this new telescope looking out where are they but then we have one revelation by The oceanographer

last few days who says they are not China they are not US they are not extraterrestrial meaning they're either here already under the water or subterranean that's where they are yes and then David Grush he says talks about is it interdimensional yes there's suddenly and one sort of wonders like is this semantics like if you ask officially are there extraterrestrials The answer is no because extraterrestrial means offplanet but it doesn't include if it's interdimensional if it's oceanbased if it's a Are we actually all talking at cross purposes well it's the reason the all domain anomalous

you know research office which is headed up by Kirkpatrick who has all these sort of you know and we should get into the the atomic ties to the UFO question he has all you know this whole history and you know atomic research he Was at Oakidge and he always rests on we have no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life but of course you know you have these anomalous things you haven't done an proper analysis on them you don't know what they are you haven't classified them and so you just you use that's like this straw manning

way of you know explaining the thing away and for an average person who's not really into the topic you go oh this official is saying that there's no Extraterrestrial Yeah but it's it's always extraterrestrial so So is there was there anything else that Richard Bissell told you I I hate to you know harp on that one interaction but it just it's so fast you have this guy who's number two at the CIA he set up Area 51 he's briefing you on other world technologies does he say anything else well he he didn't admit to or

talk about bad things that had happened he Didn't want to get into a discussion about the Bay of Pigs and he didn't raise incidents where we have overturned governments he somehow he avoided that stuff but um I think most of it was about if you work at the leadership level whether you're a lever leader or a guide to a leader you've got to keep it in play in their minds the conflicting forces and a lot of these forces are not On any legal boxes of who has authority over what um you can't do a a

diagram that is meaningful for the entire US government because a lot of it is other power networks well this Michael Turner who's been I mean he was a lynch pin for three companies at least and had you know he blocked everything suddenly he's that's very unusual someone with that much power Usually you have to buy them off you give them something else more important you promote them um yeah someone asked me once what's the most effective way to get rid of a major enemy I said you promote them right give them something more visible where

the ego can be pacified I did it more their wounds you don't want the That's funny you don't want them people yeah yeah yeah yeah you don't want them licking their wounds you'd rather have them Happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on i've never been publicly paggious but there were times well I think had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time he told me "Dad I have breakfast with him and I asked him how is it dad has so much power but he has no enemies people in power have

so many enemies and he said the only thing he would say is the rumor is none survived." So whether that's true or not I cultivated that rumor i told everybody that's the rumor don't ask me very very but I think the key here is it's not so much what do Richard Bissell say directly to dad although that has immense value it's important to capture this for posterity but it's also an invitation you are now part of a network of people it will be known that you've been blessed Um it will be known not just in

our government it will be known and other governments it will be known by the Russians and that network operates for the whole of your life there are different sources of information about how communication between JFK and Kush was established now to the average human in the world we in which we live we say why they pick up the phone mhm but number One represented central committee if you were really going to communicate with the central committee you would use the ambassador who had a direct line so he would know so if he if he didn't

serve I think he may have served us but we don't know he didn't disclose but I know I can tell you about that later but I mean he came to know me that but Um but American ambassador was that Walter Staceil or who who was that didn't matter the only thing that matter was number one power um in communication with Moscow but but that's was the official channels but there seems that there were also unofficial channels well there had to be and one of them was it seems uh Norman Cousins yeah who was against nuclear

Weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Krisv i'm trying to think back i haven't talked about this before my first encounter with Door Brinan as I said he arrived in ' 62 a phenomenon unusual a member of the central committee and I was attending some months after This in ' 63 um went to one of these Washington gayers you know the White House pressur one of those we have those events and when you're invited you get a seat with a name card you don't sit where you want you sit

where your name card is i sat down this distinguished looking gentleman sat next to me and said "Hi I'm Hal Mun." He said "Yes I know You i am Ambassador Doin." So all my alarms went off that's not accidental he chose to sit there I'm sure so I'll have to be careful and he just chatted friendly way um your name is well known in Russia long before you're in at these heady levels of decision making i said why is that he Said you're you are named after your uncle whose name is identical to mine he

said he was really famous as a chess player especially among all the security people who were nuts about and KGB and others about chess who was the chess champion in them so and he played many Russians um oh I said so he said you identified as the progeny of that herald Minion which in our way of thinking as weird bloodlines Um and so we chatted about that and how coming to Washington was surprised for me he said "Well you've landed at the center of everything." I said "Yeah I'm surprised." He said "Yeah." He said "I

gather you were in there with the generals." I said "How would you know that?" He said "Our system is far more thorough you should be aware of that and you might imagine i said yeah he didn't ask me about what Took place except to say you emerged as someone who was able to talk down the most belligerent American military official of all time or of our time anyway and so he said made you of interest how how did you do that um well it's like a good chess player how did you win and um So

later we had these encounters I don't know once a year or something unplanned he was bound me let's have a check and um he did ask I have never talked about this he did ask him one time um why is everyone so excited about these unidentified flying objects really he just innocently he wasn't trying to Pump uhhu intelligence out of me about anything specific he was very careful i said because it's something we don't control it's very simple whatever it is we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control um

he said "Nations are never in total control there are always unexpected challenges." I said "Yeah but tell that to somebody in Washington would do i mean they are Not students of history in Washington you know the emergence of of new threats it's not something we easily absorb it's not our culture we're either triumphant or not and winning the second world war made us feel really superior um so he he said there's something there remember he said that is um dividing your Country but maybe could unifying other two countries that's the way he said it and

this is about the UFO subject so extraordinary wow that's he proved it i think he was looking for me to say something but I was not privy to those letters between JFK and there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this and use the UFO thing as Kind of a unifying you know rallying cry or something but he would p number one reason let's not be misguided by these events that think to think it might be us versus them that this is not Russia or the US so

we we we need an early warning system those things that you see are not ours all right that makes sense how it extended beyond there to the other Idea maybe we should work together let's drop put the swords down and let's come up with a way to develop our futures without being mortal enemies now that switch my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind and so did did I see any no no i didn't but some people did the fact that he wanted He expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share

our knowledge of UFOs with Russia caused alarm among some officials in Washington now curious definitely but that was one of many things that JFK and he were fighting about so um but it seemed to alone people at CIA Or some people CIA is a big organization there is this letter that was foyed and used the Freedom of Information Act to to you know to to get out of the government in 2005 and it's of controversial provenence so we should caveat that to the audience but it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John McCone

after he had fired Dulles and he's basically saying "We need to coordinate i need all the data on quote unquote unknowns in uh in in sensitive Airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression." And that he's basically saying I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in you know some uh uh horrible you know uh uh bombout scenario due to the UFOs how do we deconlict how do we decon how

do we create a regime for deconliction so that we don't inadvertently fire and it's not The Russians or vice versa and in the 1971 salt treaty it's written into it it's that sort of same language is written into it it's in there and so so do do we think that this letter might be real this 2005 for letter or very amazing do do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death this is pure speculation until we see but do I think so yes i think it was probably the number one issue

why do you think that Because from what I have read not what I know because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFK to but what I have read is that he wanted to talk openly about the UAP phenomenon and the basis for why we stop fighting with each other and join forces with and make peace and he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both Sides yes and that was also a threat and challenge to Yeah part of the community yeah and Dela specifically hated that visav China because it was

like if we didn't have nukes they would outman us yeah it was really about numbers so you so so you think maybe in some of th that correspondence it was let's work together on the the non-human intelligence or alien issue it's it's funny uh Douglas Caddy who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt howard Hunt's this you Know known CIA longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of you know he's like the the janitor in Watergate or whatever it's incredible and um and he Douglas Caddyy says you know I kept asking Howard Hunt you know

what was the JFK murder actually about and he kept giving these kind of deflection answers and then finally he says it was about the alien presence yeah I think it was that's fascinating i think JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he Became president what gives you conviction in that because he was in naval intelligence for a while he learned most of it from Foresttol he was in in the intelligence and and Forestall was secretary of the Navy before becoming secretary of defense yeah and Forest fully briefed him and talked about it and he

talked about you'll have to do the history but he he was fully briefed by Forestall how do we know Forest Stalt knew about UFOs because there tons of rumors he you know managed Admiral Bird who engaged in Operation High Jump you know bringing probably like 70 or so ships uh and 33 I think you know airplanes and almost 5,000 men down the coast of of Argentina and towards Antarctica and they reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers but other than that do we have any real you know evidence that

Forestall knew about UFOs you have to do more research i my research which tends to be scattered and until recently I haven't tried to organize it but I found several references to Paris for him going to Paris with questions and getting answers interesting well you know JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel who was this famous UFO debunker but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the Deepest you know clearances across the board CIA NSA and Navy and so maybe there's some sort of connection there

um but did did did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly no no my interaction with JFK and Bobby was very limited but I was somehow part of the clan because Sriber the brother-in-law was the go he talked to me all the time sriber proposed me for I don't know Several different jobs and I declined each one um but I was unaccepted in a circle of person but Bobby and Teddy they were like consumed with events that seem to be coming at them faster and faster if I look back at top management I would

have to say they were operating without an adequate buffer system so my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way of neither one of them when you're a senator you Have a small staff but you know you don't you're operating on your own you don't know how to run apparatus someone like LBJ came in he he ran the whole damn Senate um you know some multitude of people at lower levels but um JFK came in with small limited naval experience but seemed to be busy with Forest Doll and um do you

think Forest Stall's Death had anything to do with UFOs so Forestall was sort of pushed out of uh his position at Secretary of Defense yeah and he was he was sort of betting on George Dwey against Truman and then he ends up in this Navy hospital Bethesda Maryland and he sort of you know gets killed by gravity quote unquote it's he's like midwriting some Sophocles poem i think his brother his brother Harry Forestall had met with him the day before said he was totally of Same sound mind through a window didn't seem to be openable

that's right that was the other thing yeah and it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the I The whole thing made no sense so do you think that had anything to do with an interest in UFO subject probably wow but I I'm not going to speculate yeah and so but so after JFK and all these guys George McBy all all of his top aids are they go to Los Alamos they're presumably given the same Sort of briefing that you got do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all yes

and what makes you think that i I think JFK somehow saw this moment to make world peace we weren't worried about China at that moment but why don't we and the Soviets just stop fighting join forces explain what we know together and deal with this force that we don't understand Yeah and their own and somehow in that exchange during the crisis itself there were communications with we don't know every word maybe some of it is recorded some of it may have been through doin who may have used his lines to I mean he had his

method of communication that was theoretically couldn't impregnate problem i seem to establish a Working discussion between two two guys and that's that's a thread that recurs occasionally uh actually Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose yeah and Charlie is saying you know she's talking about you know talk talk to me about your correspondence with Reagan and Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects and he says well one time we're sitting there you know Reagan turns to him and he Whispers he says "If the United States were attacked by someone from outer space

would you help us?" I said "No doubt about it." He said "We do." So that's interesting right now in modern times we are clearly shooting at these things the week of the Chinese balloon there were three other unidentified objects that the Military said they shot down and so here's just a very profound question if this represents higher intelligence or even just intelligence let alone higher intelligence is shooting at it the right way to open the conversation number one number two generally speaking you're not supposed to shoot at stuff if you don't know what it is

and and so are we locked into a kind of 1950s thinking about this thing because it's so secret it's so compartmentalized It's so dangerous to national security that no one can even really discuss this and are we missing something quite profound because we won't even ask the question why are we shooting at something that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind maybe they're sort of waiting you know there's one of my favorite quotes Eden Philpots it's like the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to get Sharper totally

and there's something about this birectional you know if we ascend to a certain level maybe we can have communion with these things but it doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to us until then again regardless of whether it is real since we can't identify it what I find again interesting to observe is the level of fear that exists and particularly in that official circles in amongst militaries because of the lack of Control that it must be dangerous it must be a threat and you will often hear the discussion of there's this thing

in our airspace i'm like what if we're in its airspace yeah right that's just a a creative way of thinking what's the definition of airspace in a world where we have a James Webb telescope that is literally millions of miles away we're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we can't even identify so It's just again given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we humanity are capable of we are sending drones millions of miles away why are we surprised if we have something here as well and so it's the way you begin

the thought process on this i fear we're stuck in this mental lockdown that made sense in 1950 but it doesn't make sense in 2025 it it really doesn't doesn't even make sense from a national security standpoint which Especially not from the primary lens through which we see this but it is an important lens and it doesn't make sense yeah exactly if you have this overcompartmentalization and cold war secrecy where you have these aerospace prime contractors that were sent to do this so you couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act or you wouldn't have civilian oversight

or whatever plausible deniability plausible deniability and then you have constant Compartmentalization the left hand's not talking to the right you're you're not getting the proper coordination on on the most advanced and exciting and interesting R&D on the I would go a bit further and again Dad and I have talked a lot about this there's another layer of this problem and that is China Russia India they never had what we would call a cartisian revolution meaning in the west the United States and Europe after Renee Deart the philosopher basically split apart the scientific from the mystical

the mysterious the religious the belief systems and we continue to this day to have this split and so therefore you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable it's not subject to scientific analyses because that's all about repeatability repeatability but the rest of the world didn't have this split and they still Think holistically and you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings and that is not contradictory in China in Russia in India in across Africa so the question today is is China maybe in collaboration with Russia making more progress because they don't have this

mental hangup if you wanted to study certain kinds of things related to what's called ESP in the United States you had to hide it very carefully Because you were crazy and then government didn't want you people to think they're supporting crazy stuff but if you wanted to do the work in Russia go right ahead fine here's your money because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible that's an interesting question that we can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition and if China can is it possible that they will

announce this first and that's part of Why I think a lot of this is progressing there's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure and that China says we have the fastest supercomputers and quantum computers we have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence we got to the moon before you guys in this round which looks like it's a real possibility and we have found something and if that is announced we in the west will go well Prove it but the whole rest of the world in that moment the danger is all the agilation

admiration of Los Alamos of NASA all eyes turned to Beijing and then we can say well but this is not scientific and you can't prove it but the whole rest of the world is still in awe and wonder and that is another reason why is not in our control here in the United States there's a real possibility that our competitors are racing ahead because they haven't got These mental constraints i think that's very well said yeah and I and I hope uh policy makers and whoever's listening to this listens to that and and and we

make real changes accordingly [Music] we're going to do explain that tweet series with you oh god the ones that had me going "Dad what the heck?" I called Curtis Lame and I said "General uh I know we have a room at Wright Patterson where you put all this secret stuff can I go in there?" I've never heard him get mad but he got mad in hell at me cussed me out said "Don't ever ask me that question." You said on X that you thought Curtis Lame had some knowledge of the UAP topic why do you

think that i never heard him say something about that but the research that he was into included the you know nuclear powered airplane for The better Project Orion the better bombers but he was I have to think about it i have a reason somewhere in the back of my head it may we're going to have a break soon i'll have to think yeah he started the Rand Corporation and was was interested in towns and Browns work as well right right so and Rand did write on this subject at the beginning they did and um you

know who ended up running Rand was the president of Rand for over two or three decades it was Michael Rich Who's Ben Rich's son ben Rich is obviously you know the the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution small group of people that are all interconnected yes absolutely you also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nicola Tesla and Thomas Towns and Brown yeah but I said to you informally I did not get that from Any US source what source did you get it from foreign

intelligence do you think it is a good source do you think it's real no reason why would somebody tell me that do you know the nature of that collaboration yeah the um Yeah because nobody had associated them now as I say I have a network whereby it's not a network of secrets it's a network of trusted people i mean during a lot of these recent Years I had friends the chief the national security chief for the Japanese prime minister was some my buddy years I actually Dad we we should say that after you served Kennedy

Johnson Nixon Ford you were also an adviser to many heads of government for many European countries you advised every single Japanese prime minister since Takadaka in 1971 so I mean the breadth of the network that he has is it's exceptional i've never seen Anything like it yeah well when Nixon went down Jerry Ford entered the White House the first full day I got summoned he was there with Bill Seedman bill Seedman was you know in later years the head of resolution trust and the FDIC and all that bill Seed was a brilliant anyway he said

"Hal we we've got something you want to do." I said "You know I'm probably going to leave the Government soon." Well don't don't hurry we have a lot of things we have want you to do but first of all we want you to arrange with the NSA a new intelligence system where what is reported of interest to Jerry Ford um is what he wants and not what the CIA thinks he ought to want so I did that the next morning at 6 a.m living in Georgetown at The time somebody knocking on my door I'm sent

by the director say we give you a morning brief and every day I had you know I prefer to get up just a hair later um but anyway and I said well J for doesn't need to know about who the new mistress for the French prime minister it's not really up his alley what we do need to know is important things Like Russian bookings from ships that might contain might have capacity to move a lot of hours range because we're worried about inflation um so I went through a list of such things oh this is

wonderful a few weeks after that the head of NSA you know some general I don't remember his name now told me "Can you have lunch over here?" Okay and um he said "You're the best Client NSA has ever had you're telling us what you need." Yeah we have huge resources but we never know what the client wants ah so we feed them all kinds of stuff and we give it to CIA and then they decide what might be of interest to him and they emphasize the love life of most important people that sounds like a

CIA thing to do or just just go for the comprom or something you know keeps the attention but I'm told that your your Reconfiguration of the intelligence that went that goes into the presidential daily briefing remains wow and that the NSA continues to have that input which they did not have before that time wow i can't prove that myself but that's my what I'm led to believe after I after I left government um well real quick Harold I do want to stick on the the Towns and Brown Tesla collaboration so do you do you know

anything about the nature of that Collaboration um about anti-gravity motion wow and so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well because they were both working with high voltage electricity yeah and I I think I I see I would I really would like to read Saska's workbooks but they're all in the hands of you can't have access you know who was tasked with retrieving Tesla's files John Trump who was an MIT professor the world's or the country's leading radar expert at the time and Donald Trump's uncle yeah but he passed them over didn't even enable intelligence

isn't that right i don't know that's interesting and that goes towards your theories around this stuff and I'm pretty sure Towns and Browns stuff was classified by the Navy yes so yeah it had to be because he was working on submarines he was yeah and he was part Of the Navy up until 1942 when Skunk Works started and then he joined Martin Vega Corporation but maybe he was still working for the Navy cuz he he showed up two weeks after leaving the Navy and he sort of left you know they said that they dismissed him

but like he had an amazing record and there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert so there's something around that story that's very interesting it is Fascinating too that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK files but still no talk of the Tesla papers yeah nobody talks about And so what's in there that's of such great importance well Tesla's another guy he said he spoke he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs and people just I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work

or whatever they assume that that's ridiculous or whatever but he would he said that in Call you know so and then and then Towns and Brown would constantly talk about uh you know space brothers and communication with aliens he would sleep next to what he called a shortwave radio he claimed that that was how he communicated with them well it's quite possible that there was communication improvised different ways of is there a way to communicate a short wave radio would be one not so hard to do harder is to get in Somebody's head telepathically especially

because we don't grow up thinking that way yeah so and yet the US government spent a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years yeah well to the extent that they learned anything between that and LSD we'll never know but they they have some knowledge yeah because there this is an interesting kind of question because Stargate this psychic spy program started by Hal Putoff and Russell Tar originally most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services of the CIA and it was people like Sydney Gotautle

and a lot of his comrades who were working on this stuff and then posturch commission that kind of changed but yeah how how far do you think we we went when it came to kind of mind control and you know It's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view draw up Russian nuclear bases find Hostages all sorts of things like that um even Jimmy Carter is on record saying "The craziest thing of my presidency from 1976 to 1980 was actually this woman Rosemary Smith finding a downed TU22 Russian cargo plane and she

was given all of Africa as a target and she circled three square miles in Zire and they found the plane and the next time one of our space satellites went over that area we located the plane where she said it was So that's clear but do you think we've gone farther in their sort of mind control techniques that we have well very likely but we don't know do we yeah um personally when I think about always being at some critical point all these interconnectivities for man I keep looking from where's the direction coming from I

mean I don't feel any Direct sensing on the other hand when I grew up my mother was a powerful personality brain i mean she could read my mind mhm she said "Why do you do that?" I don't remember doing that yes you do let me see it was 3rd of January 1942 or something you know and I how she do that so she could do it but I couldn't do that with her but on the other hand I sometimes feel that there's this hand over me that's lean a little left or Lean a little right

um that's the closest I have to it and now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into a lot of this you know towns and brown and UFOs i feel guided and why did I hear about that because I I showed a deep interest i I sent a tweet saying why is it I can't see Tesla's work why what's so important is it make now to be honest as a semi-scientist let's call that and I Respect the work of Albert Einstein but his his work are conceptual and theoretic strong in math teslam was very much

hands-on but he's learned about electricity its application in everything the movement of electrons that far transcends powering lights in your room um which led him into physical movement Transposition whatever term you want to use but all that is buried but he was way way out there i mean in my mind he was equal to or even stronger than Einstein i agree with that i mean well Einstein was never an experimentalist tesla was doing real experiments he was if I say he was cerebral you know it was all mental conceptual to me it's almost like Einstein

put a governor on our physical progress in reality and actually I I Agree with that he he made physics go that way yes whereas Tesla was trying to pull physics that way yes and the experimentalists make the most progress and often they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper frameworks to really understand what they're doing but they're I mean I think in the case of Tesla Towns Brown and a bunch of other cases they're sort of uh uh really at the operating at the boundaries of human knowledge and often It's with high energy

physics or you know particle accelerators things like that where we're doing things in the physical world that are uh kind of breaking breaking prior limits and sometimes it's in micros microscopy and just getting you know to to to lower levels of granularity but I think that begets so much more progress than guys you know with chalkboards just like writing equations so this comes up against another issue and and you and I Were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this which is did we create a kind of invisible glass or perspects wall and many

technologies particularly in the nuclear space were placed on the other side and so you could only study them or get involved with them if you had a classified status and you joined a government lab or an approved academic lab but if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage you were going to be Arrested and people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things well that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the don't touch arena and now because of incredible advancements in computational power in the kind of devices that

gather data basically you can't lock it away the way you used to people are able to uncover it and maybe that is part of also what is causing this UAP issue to Bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it now you can classify the Tesla papers but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out and today you know there's been talk of for example Andreston and Horowitz who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today who have recently been discussing the previous administration's

attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager coming up with an Artificial intelligence that would have wider ranging consequences so they started to think we could lock that down you know one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White House on AI policy was you know look there are going to be there are going to be issues that come from AI but let's they should be regulated the regulation should happen at the application level not at the technology level and he argued with me when I said that well so yes so

so so Ben basically said look it doesn't make sense because to regulate AI at the technology level you're regulating math and of course we're not going to do that like that doesn't make any sense and you'll recall that what they said was no actually we can classify math we can classify math and literally this was this is verb this is verbatim this is this is we we did we we cl we classified whole entire areas of physics uh with in the nuclear era and and made made them State secrets like of the of the like

theoretical physics science of physics and they're like wait what they're like what yeah like physics supposed to be open source and so you start to wonder is Eric Weinstein right that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall yes and now the weight of new innovations is crushing that All well that brings uh you know another explain that tweet series so we have uh Harold you you wrote questions appearing Regarding successor to AEC aec is the atomic energy commission department of energy now oversees all national labs including nuke research and security national

labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats such as biotech all subject to do department of energy R&D classifications so are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring uh in the labs or hallways of MIT uh uh Harvard Stanford but in fact At these DOE research facilities yes i guess that's just a mic drop moment well let me give you an example i became really close friends with Howard Senator Howard Baker i mean man he would have made a great president but anyway um I worked with him talked to

him a lot we became friends he had me and my wife of that time down At his country house several times and um he said one day I went to Oak Ridge and spent some time with them and I said "Oh I didn't know you were attached with them i thought you were attached with Tennessee Valley." He said "Yeah but you know I live in Tennessee i'm nearby you can imagine that we are intimately interconnected i would like you to spend a few days talking to them about the Technologies they're working on that might be

made commercialized in some way or other because they don't have that in their work agenda they just develop and develop." But he said "I just have a feeling that it's none of that should be made public." So I did and they had really interesting stuff going on areas that you you'd never think of the most impressive one was when they said somebody said we know More about filters than anybody in the world i said filters i said like filters for the war supplies and filters of molecules filters of any moving elements of phys you know

our system and we don't have a purpose for all this but they're very important in developing refining nuclear weapons that's why we do it i said it's a great value in biotech and In management of the water supply is only one of many things but it should be well we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing and it's too much it's too much work to say let's dereulate so we just we we don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington So we just do what we're doing it stuck in

my mind and um why it stuck when AT&T was On the eve of being broken up at&t hired me as the final witness before Judge Harold Green and I got into the United States is not ready for a total breakup because number one Bell Labs is where all our really advanced science is they said "How do you know that?" Because I went to Bell Labs i spent a week there i'm telling you that's where All the brain power is and I said the second reason is our industry we don't we don't have Panasonic and all

these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices we have we're not ready so this if you're going to do this should be done stages the Department of Justice guy kept getting up i object to this testimony is not part of the case judge Green shut them down said He's the first man talking about anything relevant and of interest to me as a human being so just let him talk do you believe because we're talking about Bell Labs that's part of this narrative of this guy Philip J corso who was working

in the army on what he claims to be the foreign material exploitation desk he says that as part of that role basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry and mainly it was given to Bell Labs he says that Kevlar lasers and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology should be so you'd say possible but not you don't have any evidence for that no but it should be okay and let me interject something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of

PIPA look for the technologies where there's no onramp i go what do you mean onramp i mean you can't find the research history that led To it those are the interesting ones to pay attention to they're not saying it's definitely from this particular sort they come out of nowhere the ones that come out of nowhere those have interesting stories so fascinating and Harold do you believe because you're interested in Towns and Brown to begin with presumably this source gave you this information on Towns and Brown collaborating with Tesla Which if that's true that is remarkable

and needs to be known more broadly um do you think that Towns and Brown discovered anti-gravity i don't know but Somebody just posted on the internet the workbooks Thompson from Mhm and I downloaded the whole thing it turns out to be 500 pages mhm i got my telephone he's very excited about it that's amazing i'm going to go through this Um somewhere in there I'm going find something so I can't answer your question right now but um but I think Tesla anyway was on this track of the movement of electrons allowed repositioning of just about

every anything what is what exactly does that mean what's the term Trans remote transmutation transmutation yeah interesting of elements yeah so that's so interesting because when I go deep enough on the Towns and Brown stuff with certain scientists they'll say that it gets into that the transmutation of elements thing and that that's actually why this stuff was shut down because there are more dangerous uh implications around that than the anti-gravity stuff well look at today again i'm a bit involved in the world of Artificial intelligence we already are able to create what are called programmable

materials where you can specify the behavior of the material and use materials as a data transmission mechanism so suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters let's add to that that you know because of Google's new um sycamore uh supercomputer and their new willow chip they're already discovering Basically the recipes for creating new materials atom by atom by atom which is a revolution in human history because in the past you had to start with you know a tree to make a table out of wood or a boat Right but today you

can start with what is the requirement what are the characteristics that I need and then build that material atom by atom by atom so suddenly I mean we have I think they've said 380,000 new materials and two million new crystals that no one's Ever worked with before and this will only continue now so this these ideas that you can have materials that do strange things is no longer insane like we're building them what this allows you to do is to devise it in here and make it over there also yes so you can make it

anywhere once you have the concept it's a cookbook it's a cookbook yeah [Music] okay so we're you're it's the the JFK administration you're this young whiz Kid and you see this kind of rupture in the administration where uh JFK say he's going to scout the CIA to the winds dulles gets fired he's kind of licking his wounds at back at the Brown Brothers Heramman which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with and he is plotting possible revenge against JFK probably so we what do you what do you think happens from

there do you think Dulles had anything to do with JFK's assassination Well they they say they are going to release all those papers now that's right so we'll see but what does all those papers mean i mean like one version or all the versions what do you have you ever met a guy named Danny Shehan by any chance um Pippen knows him so do what do you think of Cuz you actually you tweeted this was the first time I I was so like I was like wow I'm on Herald's radar this is Amazing he tweeted

you know Jesse from American Alchemy just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Shehan and so I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Shehan narrative of what happened um Pippa knows him peppa knows him even better now i'm about to know him it seems nice do what do do you think so his narrative is that Nixon who is head of the 5412 committee under Eisenhower Along with being his VP he was working with Howard Hughes to create this quote unquote s force which was

this kind of elite uh kind of sleeper cell unit and they were going to take out uh Shaggavara and Castro and that ends up not happening the Bay of Pigs occurs and you know Eisenhower leaves and and and JFK comes in and they sort of you know move into the roll get rolled into these other special ops programs mongoose and Foxtrot and then once JFK fires Dulles Dulles is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers Haramman and he recommarized originally to take out Shavar and Castro but in fact this time around to take

out JFK do you think that there's any credence to this story there are quite a few stories when I was six years old my father moved us to first to Providence Rhode Island and then to a community a little further along Naragans Bay and um and suddenly I found myself in a community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian mafia in fact most of Rhode Island was interesting and the dominant mafia figure for Boston was the overseer was Providence and I grew up in this environment where in school if one kid one male got to

be a Bully out of nowhere around near closing time for school couple of guys would be guys would come in grab him take him out beat the [ __ ] out of him and then they told us next day he won't bully you anymore and so I later on began to ask the police "How does it work here?" I said "No disorganized no disorganized plan no breakins no bullying no wife beating no disorganized Crime." Organized crime definitely is protection and all those stories about mafia movies i mean I grew up in all that yeah this

is the way it works um and I met a lot of these people not my culture i wasn't even Catholic the Roman Catholics but I learned a lot about it now let me tell you it's very interesting to me the first time I met the prime minister of Italy in 1973 along with Pete Peterson who'd been sent over by Nixon to do a kind of tour of the world i sat down he said "Mr mal I've been looking forward to meeting you pete you won't understand this let me explain hal here knows all about the

Sicilian way he grew up in it he understands it i know that what he knows so let me explain before you start Some lecture [Music] on confusion of state and crime and Italy we had all these communist troublemakers red brigades all kinds of stuff the only way the church and the state could fight we had to use the mafia because they could do things we couldn't do Okay so yes there was a triumvirate that ran Italy for a long time and it was an alliance of the pope the Vatican the elected government and the Sicilian

market we'll let the audience interpret that analogy as an answer to the JFK question when I met Chris Herder had been governor of Massachusetts before he he'd been in Congress and Governor M before he became secretary of state so I asked him one day I said how Did you ever do that i said you're a straight student why did you ever take that job as governor of Massachusetts he said what do you mean i said "You can't run the state of Massachusetts without running Boston you can't run Boston without the mafia." He said "Oh you

asked you asked the same question my wife asked me." Why are you press are you doing this stupid thing why do you Want to take it on he said "I puzzled i thought I thought and I haven't i'm going to establish a principle and it worked for me." I said what was the principle i announced that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside government without members of the press president and he said no one from the mafia could come to talk to me without me inviting the press in so they had to

use Indirection and I could always wave them off saying I don't I'm not going to even say is that a threat I'm going to ignore you he said I just insulated myself totally and he was independently wealthy as well so he couldn't be bought he said they can't touch me i'm I'm really wealthy so I felt like asking how you you want to spare me little money but I think it's so interesting how did the prime minister of Italy know and the Answer must be that because you grew up in that community they knew they

knew you they knew your dad i never told anybody about it he knew all about it wow you know so that's a different network yeah and that same day he said "I want you to go across the river to the Vatican and meet um Archbishop Martin the head of the Vatican bank." Wow so Pete would you two please go over there Arrange the cars outside they'll drive you over you won't get stopped you're coming for me see the archbishop we go over there martin is former archbishop of Chicago big guy tall in his black robe

cowboy boots leaning back smoking a big fat Cuban cigar he started off the same way pet all about you glad to meet you and Mr mr hell i think he said uh here um he understands everything but so bear With me i will explain to you how will explain more if you have questions later and I and I looked up and he said we know about you from your boyhood with a lot of our associates in the mafia so then he proceeded to talk about the tripartite way of defending themselves against communism i remember coming

out that he said how the hell does he know all that i said search me I don't know but there was movement between Sicily and people Living in near where I was and I met a lot of these people they never said "Boy when you grow up you can be one of us." I I wasn't one of them i wasn't Catholic i wasn't so anyway but it was interesting well it sounds like the Italian government and the Vatican were tied into they had mob ties in the US totally and then and that that connectivity allowed

them to understand who you were yeah to begin with no question that's Amazing do you think there's like a deeper layer to politics that people are unaware of that you know I mean even outside of the talks of like a quote unquote deep state or or or you know unelected bureaucrats running the government like is there something even deeper at at play that's sort of transnational yeah the answer is yes i'm sitting here in this facility people don't realize if I push a button to call Putin My call right now this minute you could call

Putin right now this minute really you have you have a direct line to him right now yes because you know I told this story of writing a long essay about him and then writing a second version of that yep and they were trying to establish a Back channel and Obama shut down the back channel that Yeah we've probably never needed this back channel more than we do today harold understood Putin's psychology and with tensions between the US Russia and China running high Herald's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict

escalation expert Herman Khan would be eminently useful [Music] I I was identified early as the person whose name they were familiar with the chess player and it builds slowly in 1982 or something I was with Kissinger and George and a couple of other people in Moscow as an aid we were invited to watch the ballet and we came and we were going to be seated in the Zar's box and um Kissinger as usual marched Ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the zar and one of the KB people said "Henry not tonight not

tonight that seat is for Dr mal and he said "What it must be some misunderstanding." He said "No no we know him he is the shadow of his uncle you are not one of the world's great chess players you may think you are and he may not be yet but he comes from that Bloodline." And in honor of him he will sit in that chair tonight now it was intended humiliation of Kissinger yeah Kissinger must have not been very happy i think he melted down i was already at war with Kissinger on other issues he

really got pissed off um he tried not to show it but it was out of proportion um preposterous you know anyway yeah he didn't forget it i didn't forget but I never rubbed it in um as the Soviet system was collapsing the Russian Republic was falling together and Yelson became the the first president uh at that time 1992 I was invited to a meeting in St petersburg Russia and by the mayor of St petersburg and at that time the deputy mayor was Vladimir Putin and a number of Americans from business and diplomats and um and

and top Soviet officials outgoing incoming Russian officials heavily loaded with what they call the seal of particularly the security people who were looking for new careers and um so gathering I don't know 75 maybe up to 100 people in the hall as the meeting open before you know Bring up drinks and before you sit down and all that and somebody comes to grab me and I recognize him The Primacov Prima who was he he was officially national academic council or something it was an official body supervising research in all fields and he was in charge

of Asia from China to the Middle East but he had known KJ connections In fact many people thought he was a key official anyway he I had met him in earlier years and he grabbed me by the elbow and marched me over somebody you need to meet and he introduced me to Putin he said "This man is rising he will soon be very important to Russia you should know him now I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting look for me found me in the crowd brought brought me over it was

Intentional now Putin was staying there talking to Kissinger he did know Kessinger and um and Pop says "Excuse me Henry but Vladimir needs to know someone else." Ker looked at me said "How the hell did you get into that?" Anyway he drew me away from Kissinger kissinger believed he was the only channel and it was through Primacov but Drian may have done this with more than Me but I had a channel directly with the Russians at his choice and um but he introduced me to Pimacov when I went to Moscow primov wanted to get to

know me i was I was created not as partisan of anything but as someone who could be trusted to carry carry an idea explore it and get an answer back as something different i was very mindful of not Getting crosswise with our intelligence system kissinger thought he was the number one communication channel between Russia and America in the back channel there's a history of why he and I had conflict a very elaborate history um because of my assignments in his Fred election it was it all really related to the large role in US trade legislation

that had a restriction on Opening trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of immigrants of Jews from Russia to either to the US or to Israel and for a while I worked for the Senate and Senator Abe Riboff um was the senior Jewish political leader in the American system and as a told me Jake Davage is my partner he's number two And the chief executive of SGS in New York is the treasurer it's it's a it's a structure um we give guidance to Apac and other bodies but this we represent the Jewish community

and I I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants i said "Abe I'm not Jewish." He said "I know that i've been looking for someone like you for a long time it had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers Or cousins i didn't want family quarrels in the middle i wanted someone with clean hands you're the first person I met who as smart as us Jews oh gosh so I said "Well I think I should we laugh about that." And I did

act as the intermediary uhhuh in fact I was sent to Jerusalem and got briefed by Mosa by Beth Shinb and fully several days of fullfailed you Know explanation of what goes on between Israel and the US in the dark world of intelligence startled the CIA who the hell was I but you know I was operating at the request of the senior political figure in the Jewish community so nobody's going to mess with me anyway but the Russians were impressed by being being kicked out to do this out of all the different people that could so

all of this was in play in The background so somehow the old Soviet guard working through Yelson said Putin has to meet Harold we don't understand Harold but he's always pops up in the important places yeah you're like Zelig or something and and then you actually dine with him oneonone you converse with him talk about at length what you learned from that Relationship you can find I I wrote at the time of the the invasion of Ukraine um I wrote my impressions of Vladimir Putin you should look up um they in unheard I wrote two

essays about Putin you should feature them on just a little link to them because they're very important there's so much I It's like as I said I didn't meet Putin by accident they arranged for me to meet They did not ask me to write but I did i wrote what I thought he was up to what he was reasoning was i didn't criticize him praise him all I said was this is his state of mind um he liked the two essays that I wrote really how do I know cuz he read them i said "Erica

I'm now going to push a button and call the prime minister of Japan m I said Watch the second chief of the national security council in Tokyo wow wow so happy to talk with you is there something you believe our president should do and I said yes i've given him counel to improve his speech in English and he's made leaps and bounds so I would like you to tell him from Me to fly to New York give a address to the general assembly he called the Good Morning America and asked for seven or eight minutes

interview i said suddenly your president will become magically an entirely new figure in the eyes of Americans because instead of being some [Music] man robots to America America they see him young people journalists young staff members in Congress they all see his face and they'll hear his words and sure enough suddenly he was everybody's friend when I went to from DoD to Lyndon Johnson I arrived in October 64 i get called over by general counsel lbj wants you to go on a very secret mission to Tokyo to meet it's already arranged i had no but

it's already arranged you will meet the Japanese prime minister he will be accompanied by some Japanese named Mia Zawa whose English is perfect he's he's an official in the Cabinet miazawa recently was prime minister anyway so I said "Okay what do I do?" Said "You we arrange to take it you do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing you just take some days off." Chris Herder knows he approved it he said "You're just the right person." Who who knows chris Herder because Okay that was that was in his aid mhm but no one

else knows don't tell don't tell anyone your agency don't Tell don't visit the American embassy they don't know don't tell the State Department don't tell anyone you'll find the entry and exit will be handled swiftly you talk deliver this message and then get an answer write it down personally when you get back if you want to type it up it's helpful but don't address it to the president don't say on the envelope eyes only it'll be dead because then 30 People want to see it so and I said "How do I get it here's the

name of his personal secretary she will expect it she will tell them to give her the envelope if it comes you deliver it yourself they let you in the door you hand over the envelope that's it that's it no return address don't have your name on it date anything okay Well the origin of this was the Kennedy people were all over Johnson the minute he became president are you going to keep all the commitments of John Kennedy he said "What can I do?" They put pressure on this i said "Of course I will." But he

said "Some of those commitments involved something I don't agree with was cracking down on imports of foreign nations of Textiles we It's been a delicate subject between our administration we already have this elaborate system for import controls but I I think this is all you know just to favor a certain group of people so I want to guide the dialogue with Japan so I want to say I'm not going to argue with you about this we are not going to have legislation but I really would like your cooperation to ask the industry to slow the

pace of expansion For at least a year or two so that I don't have to address this well we had some other issues with Japan at the time so I I met met Sato and um so he was quite happy and said yes of course came back passed it on no one never knows I made that trip and this is the beginning of what we now know as voluntary export restraints and it was a means of keeping the peace between the US and Japan on this super Politically sensitive issue for LBJ and the point is

that this is often how presidents do things they don't always use official official system they have unofficial fact channels at the time I I asked the general counsel why can't use secure lines of communication he said yeah well sign has no system but a lot of people listen to it right said doesn't deny CIA Access and then since sign is part of the army most of the military knows whatever goes So you can't use that not to mention the Russians and everybody and anybody else well that's we got to that we have all these other

You said you say something it's just like if you ever send a message to the president saying eyes only the president it's an automatic imitation everybody knows Everybody will before the president sees it they'll have to see it and write a preparatory comment um I I'll give you an example i was given when Nixon came in it was a special commission on the transition bunch of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson nixon you know Nixon was coming in was felt he should see it and there was a bunch of papers with a letter from George

B to the president pleading with let's downsize this whole Vietnam thing before it blows up in your face with cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk here is George add it again trying to get in the way of what we must do i mean Jean was totally just dismissive of everything now interesting I was told later I know this by his daughter Linderberg that he really valued George Ball that he read every memo of George Ball he thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system that had his brains especially george

B was always opposed to heightening the war so I mean I knew the daughter because I dated a girl who was best friends with Linder Bird so I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards uhhuh so I I learned lots of stuff my own intelligence System i'm telling you well I'm a human male it was sometimes beneficial i have to say over over a lifetime more more not beneficial anyway um but that kind of process there was no secure way unless you send somebody and and they you can't do it in a way

that's visible well I love your your in My research your name always pops up next to Malmgrim Inc which I always found like uh hilariously nondescript and non-threatening and sort of you know just extremely generic yeah well I never advertised anything specific [Music] you seem to just keep getting having these interactions with people kind of on the inside mhm i mean now we're getting into trippier territory and who knows if this is Correct but it's almost like a sort of mental network or or a network of serendipity or something where you you look at your

interactions with Carl Compton as young as as as you were and then Richard Bissell saying it's almost like I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason and so there's something about that that I find fascinating and particularly on nuclear nuclear and I mean how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand how what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used which I think is is a story you should tell a little bit about because it all goes back to the 13-year-old requesting these

documents and somehow ends up now I've been told but dad won't confirm that he worked on preventing a nuclear crisis on more than one occasion but you only tell me about one and and people in the intelligence world are Like "Oh your dad is good." Like what what's going on so I I won't make you go there but you have met with the leader of Russia on nuclear matters after all of this that we now know wow this I think is related to this subject and it's important to discuss and today do we have a

system for deconlicting the US and Russia if these things show up and what is happening practically as we speak we have unidentified objects flying all over the United States yes Not just in New Jersey over nuclear facilities over weapons arsenals but it's happening globally and the speculation on the people deepest on the subject people like Robert Hastings who wrote an amazing book called UFOs and Nukes and all of his whistleblowers almost 170 who work they have Q clearances at these atomic sites their intuition you could just you could say a whole host of things as

far as why these UFOs show up you could say they're Offensive which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much that's offensive they've done really nothing we shoot at them but they don't shoot at us they don't shoot at us so so all of their first intuition as to why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because they're trying to show us that our ways are are are you know too brutal and we're going to blow ourselves up and to to kind of make us think about higher things and

so I don't know if you guys think that but No I think I think that's what it's all about plus if we get too serious with nuclear explosions we can do lasting damage to the to the shell of the earth you we're plumbing deeper and deeper in to the center i mean we don't know what happens if you if you start well there's there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to occur awesome because you have you know this kind of intersection between the Magneettosphere of the earth which actually dictates biological morphology on a pretty

fundamental way and UV radiation which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection differential selection and you are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill and the really interesting crazy part is you have you have a town in Japan uh in next to the Fukushima Prefecture called Leno and it's Dedicated to UFOs and like over 50% of the residents all believe in UFOs there's a museum dedicated to UFOs and and there during the spill they say the UFOs came down they helped clean up the spill this this this monk who

guards this temple in Japan and so it's just fascinating it's like they're the stewards of the earth they may well be um it begins with the opening question um as I said I felt all the way along these Unexpected interrelated events there was a there was a message of the madness somewhere and my mother telling me just keep doing what you're doing you have a purpose you have a purpose and you may not know it until the end but well because I may be approaching the end hold on my doctors say I will outlast my

mother she lived to 100 wow that's Yes yeah but my doctors say "No you have no Physiological problems no troubles with your knees and hips and all that stuff at at 89 to be clear you're you're already lasting longer than most of my interview subjects [Music] so Kennedy had appointed Christian former governor of Massachusetts so I you know I was familiar with New England the first Friday I came to the Office so I said why am I here i asked for [Music] it and I said but who had a record i said the day that

you met the person of MIT that day your name went in all the important books of talent that keeps that that that who keeps CIA wow they not only but you know all the Majestic all these guardians they also to protect the world so So you were you were chosen and when you were brought here I asked you to come to me and to worship me or you are on a track and it's not not for any of us to understand the world and how the world works it just is could Harold have been using

the Moniker majestic in its counterintelligence context absolutely but he used the word so secondhand so casually that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group in my opinion a group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events not just extraterrestrials these sorts of committees have gone by many names 5412 the 303 committee the committee of 40 And they probably involve subcommittees we'll never know the names of on our drive to the hospital with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could

not stop telling stories about his past there was so much he wanted to get off his chest we discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back channel with Harold in 2009 but that Obama shut that prospect down we talked about Harold helping Shoiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky we even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on Earth to break the 4-minute mile after Roger Banister apparently Harold could repeatedly break the 4-minute mile in his 20s right as we got to the hospital

we got into trippier territory harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsen Brown we discussed Brown's obsession with time travel because gravity is linked with time and general relativity we talked about how Towns and Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel i then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines a very talkative Harold Malgm went noticeably silent well Harold I I want you to take care of yourself man and I know we've been talking for an

hour now and uh um I I wish I could be with you in person um and uh I miss you man and uh I I want you to just get better uh you know I Yeah I really hope you uh you rest up and you have my number so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with anything and uh I'm out of here personally okay and my health is good good my wife [Music] under the pseudonym Chase Brandon a CIA Agent turned Hollywood liaison wrote a book in 2012 the book

discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients the object also relays critical information about future timelines a secret committee is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members the committee are an elite group of military and scientific Thinkers designated to deal with the issue of non-human intelligence the main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmer's who is plucked by the head honchos of the office of strategic services and then this special committee he helps the committee navigate the future of humanity

and manage complex timelines he is also taken in and out of a liinal timeless dominion where he is taught important things by other worldly Beings that go to determine his purpose in life the common trope in the book is that Chalmer's had a purpose it was a deeply installed driven purpose even if it was subconscious the first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon "Truth is so hard to tell it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible." When Harold called me again prior to his passing I thought I'd bring up time travel one last Time

harold do you think your life is connected with time travel in any way i've thought about this many many times and my answer is yes nothing else explains when I told that MIT professor I didn't have the slightest inhibition I was talking as if I knew something I don't know why I knew it I know it and in fact what I didn't say was Breaking through no knowledge at that time so if you ask me did I have a purpose yes now my mother was the most remarkable person she read books like there's no tomorrow

she read so many books and he kept saying to me you have to understand you cannot decide by yourself you were given Knowledge there was a purpose [Music] you have to pursue your purpose [Music] [Music]