Thomas Frank Masterclass: The Secret To Brentford's Success & What's Next

the brenford story is remarkable in many many ways belief is everything I go into every game but if we can win we need to believe that we could do well in the first season of the Premier League we need to believe that we can go to the edad and beat City because if you're too realistic you think we can't win here C when we beat them last meeting before the game I said to the players of course we're going here to try to win because when we beat them I want to beat them with all

the best players and I think the thing people we'll talk about often with brenford is data there's a few narratives about brenford and yes data is important but culture beats everything the myth that brenford is built on data has just been busted is there a part of you that would love to test yourself at the very highest level in the Champions League that that that's a good question this episode is supported by huel so many people look at Bren from the outside and seem to have an opinion about how you've done what you've done and

how you've had the success you've had what are we not seeing that you see that you think has really made the difference here there's a few narratives about brenford most of them are positive and there's a lot about the the numbers games and and and all the the marginal gains which is also part of it but I think a really secret Source or what you call it is the is the people um in the club um and we know it's people that create the culture and the culture uh you know eat strategy for breakfast so

culture beats everything um and that culture we have built together over years is in my opinion quite um incredible um we have a lot of good people staff directors players U that are working to say together in the same direction I I don't think I'm okay I'm okay good at something but I think what are best is to have good people around me um and um then I learn I think I'm okay good to learn good at learning so um I'm reading and speaking to people all that so from the All Blacks I stole that

one lineer no tickets and that's definitely a a big thing for me uh because it completely fitted with my way of seeing culture or top performance culture so I'll go that far say we have we have no dickets and to be fair I think it's also very rare we find people like this I think General people the core in people are good if not then you are close to be a psychopath sorry to say they are good so if you find them and you reach them and you you you get to know them most people

are good and if they come into environment is good A lot of people are going to be swayed to to that culture and that culture um is built on what what I will call the the path to to success so I call it like passion attitude togetherness hard work and we all know we need passion to achieve our goals or to maximize performances or maximize whatever we want to do do or have in life attitude um is another one light I sto uh stolen I think is brilliant is confident but humble so you need to

be confident if you don't believe in yourself it it's impossible to achieve anything but on the flip side if you're not humble you forget uh uh that you need to put the hard work in which is the H of course in the end um and you can only do it together uh with people because if you want to go quick go alone if you want to go far go together so I think that path to success um is um is a big thing of of why uh we're good um and I think I would say

that we have a nice um performance culture so of course when people come into the club it's very open um which I'm very pleased with so they feel it straight away that you know smiling faces uh everyone says hello um we have an open canteen but everyone is eating together um if people want to come in I always open the training ground of course there's a little bit limitation but no secrets uh people can come into meetings you know all that [Music] um um but when we cross the white line of course we compete and

of course the the think the players think that we are the referee or other coaches bad decision whatever it is and there's brutal tackles but when they walk off the pitch uh you know there's that fantastic bond between the players and and everyone so um I like that phrase a nice performance um environment and a lot of other things yeah love it so a journey starts with the first step so how do you go about creating this nice performance culture uh the foundation in any culture we need to work hard so if they if they

don't uh work hard and I do this the way I treat my players or our players the way we treat each other is little bit the same like I like I treat my my children in terms of how you raise them so of course there need to be um demands consequence and love um so there need to be demands in terms of their hard work and if they don't work hard enough there will be a consequence ultimately they will not play and they would like to play um and then of course they need to have

a lot of love or believe or carrying and all that um so you need to have that Foundation of hard work and put everything into it uh but the nice I guess it's it's it's how you are as a person I think I'm privileged I'm a positive open guy um and then we have other good people around me that is also calm um and the way of course we have the mans and all that but I think we we do it in a I don't know if it's the right way but in um in a

a direct but C we and people love to put managers and football clubs in a certain category right um and I think the thing people talk about often with brenford is data because it's kind of the story of brenford I wonder though whether actually you you agree with that I because I think every football club now is using so much data I I'd be amazed if if there are clubs not using a similar level of data to brenford maybe some even more you know uh yes we use data and we are good at using it

but everyone is using it uh to today and uh I think also it's important to use it in terms especially I think especially in the beginning was because how we recruited players but everyone used that today still need to use in the right way to help us um but this is a high performance uh podcast and yes data is important but I think all the all the indicators of high performance is something about culture people togetherness teamwork and this the the the person in the in the middle and I think actually that's that's the that's

the secret Source we have I think uh we put the person uh in the middle and we try to develop uh people as people or persons uh and players or or staff members depending on how we do that I think that's the key thing so to be crude then what would you allocate if you had to proportion how much of it of your success ESS is down to the people and the culture and how much of it is down to the data and the analytics 95% people in culture the myth that brenford is built on

data has just been busted maybe yeah this podcast is sponsored by hu h l the world's leading Complete Nutrition brand and hu have provided us with a high protein meal which is budget friendly and tastes great I love this one chocolate is my favorite flavor perfectly designed to provide your body with the nutrition it needs so you can take the guest work out of healthy eating get 15% off right now plus a free gift for new customers with the code HP hu.com unlock a healthier easier way to eat with hu nutritionally complete meals in minutes

so you can focus on what really matters I actually think that the what a big element of your secret source is down to two things just from this conversation and things I've read um innovation and bravery cuz I think you can't be an innovator unless you're brave right agree and I look at the things that you do and the way you do it and a really good example this season is the sort of the blitz cre on other teams within the first minute of the game and you know three successive games scoring in the first

minute and another game having to wait until the second minute to get your first goal I'd love to know the story behind how something like that happens because everyone in life is looking for Innovation right but it's having the it's having the path it's having the the system here so that it goes from an idea to being effective on the football field so would you mind telling us the story of how that all came about the the brenford story is remarkable in many many ways um and we're very proud of it and we are I'm

very privileged and humble to be in the middle of it uh with a lot of good people around me um but how can we make it a sustainable success story so you can sit here in 5 years time uh and still thinking how can you keep going uh because that's a real challenge so all now we've been in my opinion unbelievable successful um but how can we keep going that's that's the big thing for me when I'm when I'm working every single day how can we keep developing and keep being a an asset to the

Premier League uh because for us it's never been about surviving or staying because also think that is not Innovative and that is definitely not break uh and it's not optimistic I've talked about before uh so it's always been about that uh an asset or developing adding layers um in the Premier League and I think that's key because it's such a brutal League it's so so difficult to compete here we had a good squad compared to us because we've done some fantastic businesses uh in terms of players then we need to keeping Innovative we keep to

change things um and and I'm a little bit even we have been success I'm saying when are we are established Premier League team I don't know they say we are now maybe but I don't want to say it because I'm afraid that we are leaning back and think oh that's it easy and then we just know it'll go one way and there's so many stories about teams that that got up done fantastic and then uh got uh relegated like bonley is a club I admire at lot and we look their way Bournemouth the same I

know they are back but they had to go down um Southampton now um Leicester um there's probably Stoke uh there's a lot of clubs that you know how can we keep staying there that's that's the biggest challenge going forward and we need to be Innovative a little example of that is the is the kickoffs we we Tred to uh try to find areas where we can find the the smallest gain um and see if we can we can win something and it's something we've been working on before um and of course give credit to Keith

Andrews is his um his ideas but I think two things one clear strategy of what to do it we train it um and the mentality to try at which is linked with the style of play so when we get up there is not to okay now we just keep it 20 times 20 pass try to score no no no when we up there we try to relatively quick if we can create a breakthrough in these cases cross has been the most obvious weapon we've used and then scored um so there's a lot of things that's

been linked there I think it's and the biggest thing I think actually is the belief because I think to say to the your players right we're going to try and score in the first minute I think 99% of footballers would go that's not that's not how the game works but you're approaching the first minute like a lot of teams would approach the final minute if they were a goal down yeah and if you're going to do that to score a goal why not do it in in minute one right I yeah agree I think I

think belief is everything uh linked again to this optimistic approach we need to believe that we can score on minute one we need to believe that we could do well in the first season of the Premier League we need to believe that we can go to the edad and beat City like really believe um and of course because they on paper are better than us most of the time we lose that's just part of it but if we don't if we lose the belief you can never win that that that's for sure um so I

I go into every game but if we can win like literally away it's not there's not once of said we play for a point not once we go there to win a wait to C when we beat them two one up there um and you need to do a little bit motivational speech which I'm a little bit I'm believing in because you say it every week and you I get tired of listening to myself so anyway I don't know how much they chck in last meeting before the game uh I said to the players uh

of course we're going here to try to win um it's against the best team uh in the world uh the best players de bruyne gundan foden GES that time rodwick all of them and there's a little bit in doubt of holand for that game and I really really hope holand plays because when we beat them I want to beat them with all the best players and you said this to the players I said that to the players so of course it's a part of that motiv ation and belief and of course we we were privileged

and and and got things with us that day and and won the game that reminds us of when uh James Milner told us about the Barcelona game where Liverpool came back from 3-0 down and he found what was really helpful was klopp didn't shy away from the problem he addressed the fact that nobody believes we can do this these are some of the greatest players on the planet and then once he once he'd almost outlined the obstacle M he gave them the belief to understand they could overcome it so how important is it you know

when you're trying to win their hearts as well as their minds for them to believe that you can go on how do you deliver a great team talk that balances realism with the optimism that you can be victorious I I I think of course there need to be a part of a realism in it I think actually almost need to overdo it a little bit if I'm honest because if you're too real realistic about us going to to the edge yet you think we can't we can't win here it's one in 20 times we win

here and why should it be today so so I think you need to really believe that the next time is always that time that you will beat them and if you've done it you need to believe that you can do it again uh you you need you need to believe it also because I think one thing is 100% sure every footballer or every head chef every top podcast host are just human beings have good days and bad days and in the middle of a game on the middle of night you're going to have a a

down in your belief or physical capacity or whatever it is and the footballers they know that even that they played against the best team in the world with the best manager and they in the best shape they know they're also human being so there will be spells in that game where they will can't perform or where they lose a little bit uh believe or most likely they just dip a little bit in Focus because they're playing against the opposition against the team that they need to beat or should easily beat and and stuff like that

so I think that's a big thing you can play on as well so how do you decide what to say to the players to get them to be what they need to be at the right time so we're sitting in your dressing room and up on the wall it says Brave and aggressive so what was the what what game was that up for Bournemouth was that I think yeah Bournemouth yeah they are very competitive so it's just ingrained in them they since they were a kid they wanted to compete and wanted to win um and

they found out if you play football you need you need to to have a kind of uh aggression um in the 50-50 jewels in in the jewels uh and no one has really achieved anything if they don't are not aggressive unless you are the the best possible football in the world and there's only a few of them even them are quite aggressive uh uh and brave is a little bit linked to the confidence uh of being confident um if we're not brave it's you know it's it's it's difficult to achieve things I think you need

to be brave uh then then there's some that super confident and super Brave uh um so so it yeah it's that balance and if you're brave you're playing forward you're turning forward you want the ball uh in football terms uh or you want to press High um in in those situations and you're willing to say to take risk and always say if you don't take risk you also take risk so you need to say take a certain amount of risk if you want to achieve anything zero risk is the same as you you will Decline

and you'll go backwards I love that CU I think some people think by taking no risk they live a risk-free life but of course that's not the case no no no you need to if depends on what you want to achieve some of course is different with people but I think you need to if you don't put yourself out there how how do you get anything it's the same in life if you if you're going out and you want to meet a girl you need to take a move it's very rarely that you can sit

in the corner and they're coming to you uh you know at least I had to take a move if you're not uh you need to do something uh in life so one of the comments you made earlier Thomas was around doing this through people and one of the things that often intrigues us when we look at culture is a phrase from the Norwegian psychologist Willie Rao that spoke about having cultural Architects you need the leaders without necessarily those titles of leadership that role model the behaviors and the standards that you want how do you go

about identifying and then empowering your cultural Architects to set the standards here um I think uh I think a couple of things I think in general I trust people the first thing when I meet a person I trust uh him or her um and uh until I don't trust a more more of course but that's that's that's not that's that's very rare uh that's going to happen uh because uh normally people just want to um how can you say um do their best and uh and they want trust and if they feel the trust they

do a little bit more um and I see the best in people as my first instinct of course I can also see there flaws we all we all have that um so I think that trust is is Big um to the players and my staff because it's not only the players it's also some of the the staff that need to uh come with this open minded approach um demands um all that and they need to I can't be around 30 players and 50 staff members so I need others that is also building this uh this

culture and I agree with the cultural Architects are very important I'm privileged I think is one of the reason why we also are good we have some some um good characters some some good actually cultural architects in the squad and quite a few actually and I think that's the reason why we work hard and we are constantly uh competing in the best league um um and it's about humans because money has an impact and of course we don't we have maybe the third third lowest budget in in the Premier League so so we we can't

buy all the best players so we need to buy good people hardworking people of course talented people of course very talented um but if you have the hardworking and the good people and they're working the same direction and they want to do a little bit more than the others and we have hopefully also a good plan then we can overachieve and and beat the rest and I also say to my players that me my coaching staff and the rest we can push the culture to or the high performance culture if you talk about this to

85 90% I think I can I can I can put the framework the context all the nice boss words and I can you're not running you're not all that but the last 10% the most crucial 10% it's like you are beating your running times okay and I guess you're both good Runners so you're probably running around 4:30 a k or 415 okay uh and if you want to go down to 4 minute perk last 15 seconds or just like 5 seconds it's unbelievable hard to get that demands so hard work I tried to compare that

to the last 10% is in within the group so I'm I'm saying to the players the last 10% is in the dressing room it's on you guys I can't do that that so can you give us an example then of how of how you see that demonstrated by your players yeah but then because I say to them and of course and I speak to the five six seven eight players I think got more in them um so I'm I'm like today I said to ma Yensen he was driving a little bit the the small position

drill um and I said after the the drill said keep doing that uh you doing for a while it is you who's driving that drill so he's doing that on the on the pitch of course I see that um or I'm saying to my captain or my Captain's group that you know is in the dressing room you guys need to boost the rest um in terms of what kind of Standards we will have or I got an eye because I know that maybe a three or four players are dropping or maybe there's something with them

is not working what is it so so I ask my players to find out uh not not we're not talking about going out or you just can just see they're not not happy is that is the family what is it can you get around them because they have a naturally they have a better connection with them um be same nationality um so that that's how I try to use the the players and at what point would you step in there let's say that your Captain's group comes to you and says this player has an issue

with this do you then decide there's a moment where hearing from the manager is what matters if yes uh and maybe also I step in before that and then after I ask the captain's group to help that they can be both uh scenarios um it can be that they maybe can't reach them or they think it's I think it's a problem you need to deal with Thomas or it's a personal thing so probably you need to have a a chat with him um yeah I think that's that's those situations so we've we've got all the

shirts around us here would you mind just picking out maybe three or four of the names on the back of these shirts and giving us a line or two on what that person brings to brenford that makes them a cultural architect um of course the natural one is is the captain Chris chrisan nard I think he is the he's a very natural leader um I don't think we have many of them in football uh in general or don't have enough um he is the he classic he's working hard yeah um no problem to uh to

say to the um to the young kid now you need to step up or to um briano uh there is the the top dog now you need to work harder or it's it's a bad pass or whatever so he is you know it's the same treats everyone the same and then I think he got the good emotional intelligence about how to interact with the different players I think he he's one that gives a lot um I think yon wher um is a is a player that is is of course very good for us but he's

a player that [Music] um you can just see he gets around the other players so he was running um so he's taking care of uh yamuk was a young Ukrainian boy with all he's dealing with with his parents and everyone in in Ukraine um so they have created a relationship and he's T is talking to him and he's he's speaking to him he's taking care of him um and wh is all also the player that is for example in games or training is also pushing uh and getting the team um uh in the right direction

uh I would say Vali yal um is also a player that is around a lot of players in the squad um high standards for training um also emotional intelligent um to um to push everyone and I think the last one I could mention a lot a lot more the last one I think actually mention Ben me um very experienced player that um even that he's not playing as much as he wants to now um is giving a lot to the group of course I speak to him and uh talk with him about that is important

the the the the the conversation he he has with with the younger players or or with a group uh means a lot so for example we trained um defensive set pieces uh before Everton in the weekend and um uh and Ben was on the Everton team if you can say it like that and then he was speaking to King L Potter that was going to Mark toosi which is one of the best uh headers in the league and twice the size of him um how he should uh Mark him no no you need to go

around this way and you need to you know use your arms like this and you need you know take a step before him and stuff like that so things as invaluable that is is such a big thing helping to perform but also for the culture and you mentioned the no policy what is a a is um what you can say it's difficult to explain but definitely a person that don't want to that don't care about his teammates or staff members that I think is not respectful uh in general uh to everyone high and and Loan

treat people the same way I think that's the most difficult thing for me if I see especially people that got more uh money status everything and they treat people lower than themselves in a different way I can't stand it um I I yeah that's very very difficult for me and I I don't care who it is I'll just instantly okay lost him uh because I think that's very important you do that in life so what was interesting there was when you talk about someone that throws their weight around and their status and you say boom

gone M there will people watching this that operate in environments where they are the leader and there are that have somehow made it into the culture M what advice have you got for them on how you can deal with that I think U the easy ones get rid of them that's difficult but I also a big believer that you need to give people uh chances uh to improve uh and get better and you only get the chance to improve and get better if you if someone Tred to help you um and that's of course give

them guidelines of this behavior is is not good the way people sees you is maybe arrogant or you lose them on the during the way um all that and give them examples of of how they act um and then I think it's important that you act yourself in in in a good way you need to lead by example of course the classic one but you definitely need to approach them I think that's the bigest thing and give them a chance to to change it um and if they can't of course I need to leave payhawk

has changed everything I can control the company spend in just a few clicks all our day-to-day tasks are automated and I have more time to take part in strategic decision making I mean too easy but here's my secret I miss the old days collecting receipts [Music] worrying when a sales rep leaves with the company [Music] card getting surprised by the cash flow that's all in the past with payhawk [Music] I'd like to talk about other managers that you share the Premier League with I'm interested in the biggest lessons that you've learned from from other coaches

that you've you've spent time around um I think there's three areas where they need to score high or any head coach sorry any head coach in the world that need to be top they need to have three areas in my opinion where they need to score high but I think number one no no priorities ranking number one uh they need to be very good in the specific area they are either coaching or leading or what it is so from in my opinion in my case football um so we need to be good uh in terms

of uh you can see in the team clear identity you can train it you need to train it yourself uh coach it in my opinion um uh develop it um analyze it uh constantly improve it um so all the Tactical bits how can you train that uh and get a clear clear identity into your team uh two leadership and Leadership is of course many things it's communication um it's uh it's it's the strategy it's the plan it's it's how you communicate it's how you lead other players or people um and then man management um the

oneto one mainly with players but these days also staff and then there is too many people with too many egos or too bigger egos uh but um but anyway so these three areas you need to score high in all three in my opinion if um if you um if you want to yeah be top and I was thinking actually maybe you need to have one more because you need to keep developing uh being curious U to to go to the next level um so for a lot of football managers I mostly looked at because I

don't know exactly the leadership and the way they communicate the football so so that's the football and then there's other leaders where I've been in in the past was very interesting in um er coaching but you know not the coaching technique of answering asking questions I used a lot uh in the past to do that very interested found out it's very good but it doesn't work too much in football yeah in some meetings but there's also the including thing what I'm left thinking is who in the game and does this happen even do you pick

up the phone to an say I've got a bit of an issue here or when you have a glass of wine after a match with a manager what sort of things do you discuss and I'm interested in who who you feel you really learned something from that made a difference for you on what it was I I meet with a few Premier League managers sometimes where we uh discuss everything in a closed room uh and everything said there is is of course kept there sharing stories and experiences and yeah challenging even even without you know

betraying their confidences and sharing what you discussed with current Premier League managers is there a power for you in being able to talk about your challenges and your issues and the problems and the sort of landscape of the game yeah I think I think uh when we definitely because when we when we sit there we are you know uh completely naked in a way you know we we can sit there we can share all our our thoughts our our struggle we all struggle at one point um in a job or in a in in a

spell in the season or had issues was difficult so so um of course it's classic there's a lot you know how did you deal with players how do you deal with the big egos how did you uh deal with you didn't win five games game in a row um when you went into that club what was your learning so so all those stories are we sharing and do you mind telling us who because we've had a few I guess on on high performance uh yeah we you know we have um met um a few times

with um Roy Hudson very good David Moyes um Sean dice uh Grandpa at G sou gate of course um so yeah it's very good and there's a number of those um other managers that you've met with that come from a similar background to you in terms of not necessarily having a high level football playing career one of our favorite quotes is the arigo saki one that you don't have to have been a horse to be a jockey have you ever discussed that idea of how you how uh how you can command respect in a football

environment having never been a footballer has that come up in these meetings um no actually but I think it's natural in beginning of my career it was something I was I was thinking about uh I think it has changed more these days um I think it's it's it still means something if you are um a former player and played at the highest level uh you you have a natural respect when you step in because you you got a name uh and you know oh he was a good player you know just natural instant is just

uh respect but if they found out that they you know whatever I'm not saying they can't but the leadership or the coaching or whatever it is is not to a good level then that will die after weeks or months um uh and and they got something I never have you know I've never been out there uh yeah but on a very very low level okay uh playing uh the highest level game if they're very good of communication that and and use the experience there is something they will gain from that um of course I just

just knew that I had to upskill myself in other areas so others must just that of course but of course being able to coach on the pitch is something I've done 10 thousand of hours of um analyzing game I've seen I don't know how many games so I hope those two areas are do okay um and then I think the the leadership and the man management it's something we all learn either you are I don't know say naturally talented because I don't think maybe you we all have a potential but maybe you have a good

personality that makes it a little bit easier but if you don't learn and we make so many mistakes along the way and learn from them and get better then then it doesn't matter so in the beginning of course it was a little bit a a thought uh from me but now of course I don't is is not a problem uh of course I'm uh doing very well here in brenford and everyone knows me and I'm uh King of the castle and blah blah blah of course I'm not but you know what I mean I'm I'm

top of everything um but if I walk into a new club I need to perform and prove myself again but I will never think I was not a player I'm now need to no no I just need to know to go in um and and and trust myself and know what I've done is good and hopefully I can do it again what advice could you pass on to anybody about being willing to stand out and put themselves out there definitely if you want to achieve anything of any Ambitions you need to be brave enough to

stand out there and be either criticized or the fear of failure don't fear those things because if you you don't do take the step there's no chance you you're going to to fulfill your dreams or your Ambitions so I think it's it's very important to uh yeah to trust yourself um throughout also in the bad days and with the setbacks and uh how much impact do you think a manager can have in in the very short halftime in a game I mean I've looked at a few of your games this season I thought the most

fun one from us from our perspective was your game against IP switch which was just like sort of a crazy game of football in those games where you're really up against it at halftime how do you think you can make a real difference to the second half um I think think you can but it's not like at least I'm not good enough to do that uh maybe the other others are I don't know I don't think there is a Formula that you can go in there and then you can completely change the team every single

halftime but there is times where you can either do good stops and that's a feeling that you can't okay this game no that's a feeling from your experience what you see um the mo motivational or the little go you need to have at them yeah um so I would say there some halftime I was thinking okay there I made the difference but there is a lot where I hopefully did my job but it made a big difference would you give us an example of when you feel like you really did make a difference um I

think there was toam away uh in our second season in the Premier League there was a clear one uh where I remember uh we were one down and I was angry and irritated because I felt that we didn't performed to the level or we didn't you like believed or we didn't uh had the the physical presence or went into the 50/50s and um because normally I'm calm composed analytic and and try to have that uh bit and it's difficult for me to just okay now I need to pull that uh hair dryer classic focus on

which I'm not that good at uh but I know I I have enough temper that if they hit me on the wrong day I will snap um and um I think that was either the wrong day or the good day uh because just felt it so I didn't speak to the coach just went straight into the to the players and and you know in terms of and more there a few things I said okay this is this me to better account press or build you know Shar but the most important is that I can't replicate

it but you know I need to win 50/50s so need to press and then you know you know a few players if you I think that was Vali actually want to show that you should play that now you need to step up and win more 50/50s and if you then not all 10 but one or two or three that I know uh hopefully can can take it I I dropped a line to one of your coaches to inquire about your leadership style and one of the responses I got back was that you you're very good

at using logic and strategy and rarely if ever let emotion affect your decision making is that conscious um yeah yeah I think so um I I am a very logical person and I'm also think I'm very calm I also do my very best to uh control my temper uh because I don't I I I don't think is beneficial I really believe that I really really believe that the of course you can perform on fear or or or pressure uh or what you hold you you need no mainly fear um of course you can but I

don't think it's sustainable at all so believe in confidence uh belief uh clear messages calm massively believe in that but as a coming back to the the kids uh raising kids you know demands consequence and love um and I think that's that's the big thing so how do you control your temper then what are the strates since I was young I think I guess I've been R relatively aware of I don't think it helps uh and also if I lose it it always after I'm thinking what are you doing uh and I don't think it

really help now because I know in this world you also need to show a little bit of a you need to have some personality and presence which I don't and again that's maybe part of you need to have some sort of presence when you're standing in front of players um whatever media what you need to have something over you um so when I lose it very few times not lose it but you know really I think that's important uh I think it's important to show it so I'm not I I think it's more good because

in general I think again others must must adjust that I think I'm a I'm quite a good guy uh so I think it's good to just show that side of me a few times I also think when you don't shout a lot when you do shout people listen right um look we're all adults here and we all know how football works and we all know that either a team has already come wanting to hire Thomas Frank and take him from brenford or one day a team will want to come and hire you and take you

from brenford and before we started recording you know we discussed that you were listening to the Grand Potter episode and it's a very similar career trajectory you know it's been a stable constant Improvement and then he makes the decision to make a big leap and take the job at Chelsea and everything changes one day you will be in that position if you haven't been already what are the questions that you would ask before joining a new club to make sure that you can replicate your success here because we got the impression talking to Graham that

that that was the big learning for him I think couple of things one again I said a million times I'm very very very happy here if I ever should go to another club um I think it's difficult sometimes to be in position to ask the right questions you definitely need to do do do dilion yourself um and isn't it Ferguson who saying and he said that reminded me this morning when I was running when you know you one of you said that that you need to pick your chairman yeah um that can be difficult because

uh it's not that often that uh you got the possibility to choose between three clubs there's maybe two or three managers in the world that can do that so more normal uh managers that grma and I if that club comes that we think is interesting enough uh then it's maybe not an option for us to choose the chairman if we want that challenge if we want that challenge uh but uh I think it's this is a general thing I will say now it's not for me I think for any football head coach or manager of

course the ownership slash chairman is important I think the club you're going into can you instant Improvement is there low hanging fruits uh or is it uh is it difficult to to raise the bar uh and is the finances uh finances Good and four can you get the players in and out you want to I think that's the key and again you know talking as adults understanding the way the world works you know this isn't you saying you want to leave brenford let's be very clear about that but you've you've had this amazing career of

teaching and then going all the way through the youth setup in Denmark and then coming over here being an assistant becoming the manager I've loved you know this insight into the culture you've built and the your constant quest for information you know you're exploring all the time the I won't say there must be I'll ask you is there a part of you that would love to test yourself at the very highest level in the Champions League I think there's a part of me that that things that think that one day maybe maybe I need to

try something different is that a bigger Club Champions League different challenge I don't know the flip side of me thinking because I I I think I'm a little bit different I don't know of course I don't know all my colleagues their family life and social life but I'm I'm a very social person and I love that part of life as well being together with friends and family and and then being able to travel and all that and I'm working working very hard at brenford but also got uh uh I'm a club where everything is working

everything are being part of building is you know all the processes and then we know last year we I'm not saying we're fighting relegation it was not going completely the way we we thought so okay then then it's a little bit tougher um but there's a lot of things in this club where it's easier natural in if then you're going into another club where there's just you need to build the culture you need to build everything you need to all that so that's probably the two questions I need to ask myself and plus brenford maybe

there is extra layers I don't know who knows what will happen in the future when we can do even more I think that's the probably the two questions I'm asking myself so now I'm just thinking what is it I want in life uh is that constant chasing uh which I already do a little bit with our ambition to want to do better and better and better that's yeah so if i' have asked you that 10 years ago do you think the answer would have been different yeah what would you have said then I need a

big Club I need to yeah but I but the thing is I always just thought about the next step yeah I never 10 years ago I was a Bru I thought that stage you just ask me there or was just think okay I need to get this right because I was there three years and we did fine but there was a lot of things we need to do um but yeah definitely now I'm thinking H it's it's it's fantastic privilege to be in football yeah but it's also a hamster wheel and we've spoken to so

many high performers who are not happy I think if you can be a high performer and be happy that is rare Air at that point yeah it doesn't happen often no and I'm I'm quite happy we're about to move on to our quick far questions to wrap up this interview one thing that I've been thinking about sitting here listening is that you seem so comfortable in your own skin I wonder whether you've kind of you've actually reached that moment in your life where you know you're never going to know everything but you also know that

the stuff you do know is pretty valuable and you've seen enough and heard enough of good and bad things to realize that there's actually there's more to life than football M and um and I just get the sense that you seem comfortable really comfortable thank you um I think I am uh I think I think I think I've been working not no I know I've probably working 60 70 hours since I was 20 years old not not with the ambition to be a premier league head coach one day that's um little bit of coincidence hopefully

hard work hopefully some skillful so hopefully good people help me along the way um and you know just small aims goals and now I'm privileged to sit here but I always try to get the balance okay right with family family and friends and I always knew that that was probably more important to me and of course this stages in your career of course when I was in brur uh I walked out myself after three years I probably knew there was probably not that good to be sacked after two years of course here didn't want to

be sacked but now no matter if I go no matter where I go in the future or if I stay in in brenford I'll never be afraid of getting sacked never never ever ever and I could just go home to be a teacher in Denmark I know I will miss the football a bit don't get me wrong I'll still my ego will be hurt and all that but the biggest thing in life no it's much more important family and um and friends love that ready for some quick far questions yes the first one is the

three non-negotiable behaviors that you think are most important for you and the people around you uh hard work respect Beyond Time very good what advice would you give to a teenage Thomas just starting um even even that as say I'm comfortable still that belief I think everything will be be fine um if you keep it's it's funny because when I try to look back at my life I'm thinking it seems like just one thing took the other of course there was a lot of sit packs um definitely believe in yourself and I am a optimistic

guy and maybe used it even more when I was younger um and of course through hard work that will that will come opportunities what does high performance look like to you uh high performance is for me the ability to perform at a high level over long long periods of spells I don't know years more than you know 10 years more more than that um and performance there is high performance is that you are probably not only achieving because in football we can only be you know for example uh some teams C have done fantastic but

there are also some teams that haven't won enough because it was inside the post outside the post so is that that consistent performance over time of course uh but where you are um how can you say performing to a higher level than you thought was possible either as a person or a team and if you want to have that opportunity to perform over time high perform over time you need attitude where you're confident but humble you need to be confident and believe in yourself and your ideas and your dream and all that but humble enough

to do the hard work and to have the discipline to do the hard work what's your biggest strength and your greatest weakness I think my biggest strength is I am positive energetic open that's also the weakness because it's often that the strength is the weakness so I don't know if you can be too optimistic but I think because I believe so much in the guys and the team so we go to anfield I believe we can win there and I get so not frustrated but down if we lose even that I know the chances for

losing is Big so that's a downside to it and me having energy and in that also another thing being um a strength is that I want to do everything which is good that's because that's give me ability or whatever or determination to achieve something also learned that I can't do everything all the time I need breaks I need to rest uh uh with with yeah with um with everything yeah what's the hidden cost of your journey to high performance I think what they don't see for me um I think it's in that Journey there's a

lot of things you need to say no to so that's that's you know uh family birthdays uh kids birthday uh seeing friends uh going out uh holidays um all that I think that's the the biggest cost I would say [Music] um and then in football I think it's brutal because they it's uh 10% joy and 90% suffering so uh I think that must be the the hidden cost as well the final question for people who are listening to this and people often listen to this as listeners like you are they're on their own Journey their

own search for high performance what would you say to them is a golden rule for for living a high performance life your final message I guess to people who've listened to this [Music] conversation then don't just say that that that that attitude where you are confident but humble yeah because if you're confident that's where you believe in yourself and you need to believe in yourself you don't believe in yourself you can achieve nothing nothing nothing uh and doesn't matter what people says to you keep believing yourself of course learn uh and and learn from your

mistakes and don't make a lots of mistakes but not the same twice and all that I think so confident and then humble enough to to put that hard work in because it's it's Relentless um out there but also quite fun brilliant Thomas thank you so much welcome thank you lovely appreciate thank you I don't think you can be high performance by yourself I don't think it exists [Music] I'm interested in what kind of lessons you could pass on to our listeners that is the most interesting question I've ever been asked in my life [Music] this

is high performance available to you your people and your business right now