O QUE NINGUÉM TE CONTOU SOBRE O BURNOUT- Convidado: Dr. Marcos Mendanha

Fuck my [Music] Brain it's time to give your mind a boom, an explosive episode of F my Brain is starting here, everything that bothers your mind is a topic that we bring up, if it takes away your sleep, it's a topic that we bring up deep down We are dealing with mental health Look how interesting you want to know today's topic today's topic is what no one told you about Burnout fuck my Brain and who is going to talk about this topic well he released a book with the same name Dr Marcos Mendanha He is

a doctor, lawyer, director and professor at Crap College, where he has carried out and coordinated studies, courses and events on Psychiatry and Workers' mental health for over 15 years. He is the author of the book What Nobody Told You About Burnout, as well as other works. He is a professor guest of postgraduate studies at USP and Hospital Albert Einstein Dr Marcos very much, very very very much, thank you for coming here, dear, thank you very much, an immense pleasure, I've been wanting to be with you for a long time, and I glanced at feed on

We My Brain's Instagram and I was delighted with the casting of speakers that you already brought here as guests and I feel extremely honored to participate in this, thank you, we can handle it, that Goiano accent stays with us until the end, I loved it, well Look who Tríade is also here, excited to talk about this content that is going to be explosive, let me start with me, I'm Marina Machado, from now on I can say that I'm a specialist in communication and leadership, I'm an astronaut, people, that's it, I already I recently changed career

Now the person here in front of me is Luciana Quiesa who is an expert in business management and customer service and then Lu Hello Hi everyone, how are you, Dr Marcos? What an honor to have you here with us, let's talk, right? all the time that FM Brain was born to bring content to the world, right, we really provoke and bring issues that are so important today that make a difference in the lives of people's society and nothing more than Burnout and I think nothing more It's important to have the right people Speaking of which,

a topic that has now become very common but often times people Were able to apply it the way it works, so we're here for that today, thank you very much Our history, Luciana winning 10 at the opening, well deserved, well deserved, huh, Natália master who specializes in branding and strategy for brands and people Hello, I just want to see if I win Lu, my friends, I won't win against Luciana Hi to everyone who listens and watches us Hi Dr Marcos, welcome, I don't have the slightest chance of beating Luciana in this opening I'm not even

going to try, I'm dying to know what no one told me about Burnout Let's talk guys, I was going to bring some eggs for us to put up front because it's a topic that's walking on eggshells, it should be called oh let's change right, to walk on eggshells about bern told about oal, let's reflect But anyway, and just before starting this walking on eggshells Look at whoever named the podcast like this, you already made the omelet a long time ago, you need to worry for a few years that we are treading on 10 also today

it's easy to step for a long time, right, but before we start breaking eggs here, please, right from the beginning, grab your little finger, sign now and, eh, click and follow us, please, Because this helps the algorithm, in fact, you know. what is wonderful when you comment so many people commenting we respond we like it it is very nice to know how you relate to this content whether on our video channels like YouTube or on our audio channels Remembering that we are in all places on planet earth and beyond because you just need to access

the channels let's go YouTube @canal fmy brain on Spotify @fm Brain we are on diesel Google podcast Amazon music and we are also on our Instagram right next to you Attention girls @fm ponin don't forget Pontinho on Instagram and there's the subscription club I talk talk talk people think it's super cool we want you there with us because you could have sent a question to Dr Marcos Mendanha he would answer And then it's an exclusive answer for our subscription channel and you compete to win one Nati tchã Very wonderful mug D isn't it beautiful wow

I'm delighted so see you don't want it you don't want it and it comes with the NAD lipstick brand we're going to make a limited edition of this just me and Xuxa we have products with the license lipstick brand, that being said, the pork crackling became chuc ground, my Jesus, that's it, And the theory. The idea is to talk about something very serious, but please, lightly, I started talking about walking on eggshells because when we talk about Burnout, we're everywhere, thank God, we started talking about mental health, perhaps much more seriously because of Burnout, yes,

but it has become something where we seem to take it lightly, too, which is in fact a Bernal painting, so to begin with, I wanted to say two things one na and Luciana had the let's talk about this and one day I was at an event presenting an event just focused on mental health which was the vittude event and a very nice guy came on stage who I hadn't met until then, a population of people going crazy with this guy Marcos mendan family is big fam Goiânia comes in force Goia V peso and then I

looked and said damn who is this person and then he started talking and he started bringing the numbers and we are going to do that exactly here with you and with what we're going to bring to you and I said I started Like how but it's not but and and the data and the basis and the logic I said man you're going to have to go there you're going to have to go there I'm going to tie this man up I'm going to take it as far as I can and that's why Dr Marcos is

here with us but I'm asking for caution because everything you hear about Burnout Let's think a little more with a little more groundedness and it's That's why we need our attention from beginning to end, don't abandon us halfway through Ok drout Marcos eh According to the WHO, Bernault is a syndrome, a disease, both or neither, here I am reading it because the title is in the no. his book what differentiates Burnout from depression and other mental disorders Burnout has a connection with work the company is always to blame there is parental conjugal Burnout how the

diagnosis of Burnout is made the diagnosis must be made exclusively by doctors psychiatrist can attest to Burnout without getting to know the place and the organization of the work, there's more to come, people, I'll tell you that we started [Laughs] dout Why did you decide to write a book called and we're going to put it here on the screen for those who are watching on YouTube what no one told you about Burnout it even has two editions and two different covers but why don't we already know enough about Bernal Dr Marcos Oxe Marina this question

I didn't imagine you would start with it and I thank you for the opportunity rating 10 for me rating 10 for you more than fair So first of all I think it's important to take advantage of your saying that we're going to walk on eggshells because here sometimes we're going to raise some concepts that are nonsense, which aren't exactly what the mainstream media says and when we criticize some of the current concepts about Bernal, under no circumstances are we ever belittling or diminishing people's suffering Okay, so it's important that this is made clear in a

separate department . It's constructive to talk about a topic that's on people's lips, right? And your initial question is really very timely for me because I've never said this publicly, no one has ever really asked me this. of mine's as soon as I left college I always studied Occupational Medicine, a postgraduate course. I've been a partner in a clinic in Goiânia for over 20 years and I really like what I do For myself, it's too seductive to give myself to work sometimes much more than he demands and in 2013 I went through a complicated moment

where I realized that my performance decreased and where I realized that my mood changed where I noticed a series of differences in my day to day life and then I'm used to Occupational Medicine and I said this is barn, I'm working a lot, this certainly has to do with this excess of work which I imposed on myself and Barnaut was so easy to put myself in that condition because I've been working with this topic for a long time, although not in an in-depth way, also within common sense, so for me it was very comfortable, the

press said, Oops, this is medicine at work, it has to do with me, I'm going through this, so I autod diagnose like this and time passed and the symptoms didn't go away on the contrary I started to lose weight I started not sleeping I started looking at the window of my apartment with different affection I looked down there this all happened in 2013 until 8 months later I looked for a psychiatrist friend, Dr. Alexandre Paim, who is now a psychiatrist in the United States, and we Were having a coffee like this and I said, Alexandre,

tell me what I need to do to solve this issue of mine because look, man, I was depressed, I lost weight, I I'm not sleeping I have some strange ideas how do I solve this problem of mine, he said, friend, sorry, but that was never the case, what are you calling Bernal, I see it as moderately severe depression, so we need to treat this exactly as the depression protocol recommends and with 2 months of treatment I was 90% better Wow, so look what misinformation does to people in the medical field, to people who live with

the topic, a wrong diagnosis generates wrong treatment and is perpetual suffering is what we are talking about at the end of the day much more than saying oh he is against the worker or for him that is not what this issue is about it is also important we live in a democratic country and the struggles for rights of workers they need to increase more and more in my opinion but let's not confuse this social appreciation in defending a cause for what actually affects people's health as it affected mine From that day onwards I said no,

I need to understand what this Burnout is about so that I can guide people to have a correct diagnosis because let's face it, even the Worldwide research is much more seductive from a social point of view if you say I have Burnout than I have depression according to Schaufel, one of the great scholars on bern he says that some people use I had barn as if it were a badge of honor ah, in other words, what happened was not my fault they did this to me in the performance society assuming vulnerability has a very high

price when I say I had depression in others words I'm saying to you, look, there's a vulnerability in me that was touched, yes, and that's bad, you lose it. It's wonderful, right ? You already understand, right ? If it's barnaut, let's treat it like barnaut, we'll even discuss what are the treatments for barn, but if it's something more serious, we'll treat it as something more serious because the suffering goes away sooner, so it's less harm to the person, it's less harm to companies, it's less damage to the country so that's what we're talking about Wow,

very interesting, my God, it hurts Hello, this is back, these girls are making me too used to it, oh, this is back from the United States, I know, Hello, this is it, I ate something strange at lunch, no, at lunch It's not early in the morning, it was Gisele's recipe . Saying that you have depression , I think it affects you to the point where you find affection in suffering, yes, you are looking for affection, you are trying to find comfort, right, in suffering when you relate to Burnout, which has this approval, right? something they

didn't do to me depression You Clearly don't think you're to blame, do you? The Search for a resolution is different, in Burnout, even as much as it's always said, it's usually the environment that leads you to that situation that's to blame, and depression comes with other components on top of that. That's why I wanted you to bring us some examples of how I can identify or why we can make this differentiation between depression and symptoms of depression and symptoms of Burnout, how can we put this Spark in the people who are here? seeing and hearing

us May she identifying that her path is a little different from what she was thinking, Luciana, excellent question, and so, just to highlight that Burnout is less stigmatizing than depression, that's not just my head, it's not empirical from my experience, that's it. International data shauf has already talked about this Renzo Bian, who is a Swiss franc, writes a lot about this so this in the world literature is already something quite abundant, okay, when you propose that I make this difference between depression and Burnout, I wanted to go back a step earlier and ask you What

Bernal are you talking about, this is a question that I invite all readers of the book to ask, you know why Because there are several burnouts in the square, many, so I'm going to talk about at least four here, they're not the only ones, okay, let's talk about four first is the Bernal of common sense, this is the person you meet in the elevator on a Friday and the person says wow, I worked for [ __ ] this week, barn means any tiredness is synonymous with Bernal, okay, this is common sense, the second which is

more from an academic point of view, opening another parenthesis, the word Bernal has been around since 1599 in a poem attributed to Shakespeare Wow, you didn't know, so it's been a long time, right? A word that comes from the verb Burn to burn in English, right? A lot of people say Burno as if he were French, but it's not Shakespeare, so in one of his poems attributed to him, the girl cheats on the boy and the boy wants her to burn in the fire of his own love, Burnout that you burn yourself there, so there

was no bias related to work, something of this nature, from then on, the term has been used in lay literature several times in the 60s, in the United States, there was a great bestseller Called abnal Case, which was translated to Brazil in a very different way, but anyway, there he already said this term became very popular in the United States, especially among drug users, people reached that pre-overdose phase and said Oops Burnout, I can't take it anymore, it's precisely in a drug user clinic that Herbert Freudenberger, who is considered the founding father of the concept

of Bernal syndrome he worked during the day as a psychoanalyst and at night he worked in these clinics taking care of drug users with ists marginalized people and he admits that he got the term barn from these people after a year of working hard he had a trip scheduled with his family He didn't wake up for this trip and said I'm exhausted, I'm suffering from Burnout, it's Burnout syndrome, a term that the drug users I care for, I get that term from there, I get that term from there and then he says that exhaustion of

tiredness and for freudenberger who is considered the father of the term there was no barnaut only of work there was a barnaut of marriage which was the marital one there was a barnaut not taking care of the children parental there was a barnaut Of resources on the planet of ethics in public life of everything you can think of Still in the 70s, the third barn appeared, which I'm going to say is Cristina Maslac's, yes, if we could talk about why Bernal is so tied to his work because of Cristina Maslac's work, she was tied and

Bernal was she had tied it to marriage Maybe the Bernard we knew today Today would be exactly different So she tied it to work and she did a questionnaire called MBI musl Burnout inventory is named after her which for you to use, you even have to pay the copyright for it, it became the most used questionnaire in the world to make diagnoses of Bernal What is the big problem? There are some questions that are very non-specific, for example, do you feel exhausted when going to work, do you feel exhausted when you are at work, if

you give this questionnaire to a person who has depression she will also score very high and it's for barn ooo the questionnaire is for barn but depression has a part there that she Questions like this do you think you sensitize many people that you positively influence people A person with bipolar mood in the phase manía answers this very loudly too, so it is very non-specific, the fact is that this questionnaire, which is still the most used in the world, does not differentiate between depression, bipolar disorder, phobias, barnaut panic disorder, here comes the latest Burnout and

in Which I probably supported myself to answer all the other questions from here, which is why I needed to make this introduction a little long and I apologize for that here at the beginning, which is the end of CD 11, which came into force now in 2022 and What is S1's Burnout? That's what we're going to talk about. It has a tripod. This tripod also comes from the maslak base of exhaustion and emotional distancing from work, a kind of cold cynicism. A friend of mine, Pedro. chial, a great psychiatrist even likes to use an example

of cynicism, you have it For example, wide open when someone says Wow, that's great today we're going to the pizzeria after work there people think wow, I hope this pizzeria burns down, I don't want to see anyone like that this detachment and a feeling of ineffectiveness, then exhaustion, this cynicism, ineffectiveness must Be related to the work and only to it, the WHO makes a point of saying I'm talking about the UMS sidion, it makes a point of saying that Bernal cannot be related to other areas of the life then Theoretically, a person cannot get a

red light when they don't want to, they cannot stress with their children, they cannot stress with their husband, it has to be with work and, in addition, they have to exclude mental illnesses such as depression, such as panic disorder, this means that a person that having depression cannot be related to work, but it means that depression is something more serious, as if it were a subway line. Imagine with me tiredness, fatigue and mental illnesses, it's only for those who are just listening, the doctor is doing this as in Three different Points as if there were

three different subway stops three subway stops So you leave home normally after a day of work you get tired the tiredness resolves with one night sorry the tiredness resolves with a night 's sleep that's it but if the stress we don't lack today bad marriage financial problem illness problem work if this stress accumulates you will become fatigued fatigue is exhaustion is exhaustion Is ineffectiveness if it still continues to accumulate the most vulnerable will have physical and mental illnesses it is precisely when you are exhausted that is the trigger for example, gastritis, psoriasis and even depression,

mental illnesses, but what characterizes depression and what differentiates it from fatigue, depression, you have damage and intense suffering that is completely disproportionate, this stimulus is very long-lasting, so is the degree of suffering This is what draws the most attention, the WHO makes a point of including Burnout here, in terms of fatigue, it is the words used to define fatigue, they are the same as Bernal's, exhaustion, exhaustion and ineffectiveness, the difference is that fatigue can be caused by a bad marriage for any reason now o barn No, it is an exclusive fatigue related to work, it

is not a tiredness that resolves from one day to the next but it is also not a disease and why do we need to differentiate this because if we make the correct diagnosis we have treatment correct, there is a treatment for depression, there is a treatment for panic disorder, there is and what is the treatment for Burnout, there is no treatment, a guideline that says the treatment For Burnout is this because it is not even considered a disease, that is precisely why homes of psychiatry don't even touch on the subject of Still still and maybe

it doesn't, I don't know why Because we're talking about exhaustion and I would like to invite everyone again to open their minds and forget that no one is saying here that work does not make people sick, of course what we are saying is that Bernal is a state of exhaustion that is not an illness and what is the treatment for exhaustion, even common sense responds to effective rest, effective rest does not need medication, people with mild depression do not need medicine you treat with psychotherapy I'm talking about depression which is already a disease and when

you don't have a treatment protocol it becomes very iatrogenic and at the same time treats people badly So if you go to the square and look What are Bernal's treatments you will find the whatever you want, floral hypnosis to massive doses of antipsychotics and antidepressants There are a lot of people taking medication without needing it and a lot of people who needed it without taking it, that's what we're talking about right now I have immense respect for people That bring in the storytelling the fact that one day there was a barn because this whole story

that I'm telling was kind of reset in 2022. So what we had of Bernal before that, even if it's completely tells what I'm saying here that in the truth, it's not my invention, it's what the WHO says, everyone is forgiven, I think we need to update the concepts now and it seems very positive to me what the UMS did, especially differentiating Burnout from a disease because it gives people the possibility of being treated a better way now to answer your question lastly, it's even easier Bernal, it's a stage before depression, okay, and what differentiates the

degree of Suffering, when I'm talking about a depressed person, there are several different symptoms that are present there, anhedonia, which is the loss of pleasure in life and the things you used to do mood depresses changes sleep changes appetite suicidal ideation for at least two consecutive weeks So you have treatment protocols in both the Cid and the dsm5 which is an instrument from the American Psychiatric Association that makes this diagnosis when you compare this diagnosis, which is one, one, One, a whole page of symptoms with these three from Bernal that I mentioned, it's very clear

that one thing cannot be the same as another, now we're talking here about a change in Culture, Luciana , We're talking about a Bernal culture that dates back to the 70s, something that no one knows what is related to work, which can range from simple tiredness to something very close to depression. So I think that what the WHO did in 2022 is too recent for a change in culture to say, don't wait, people, Bernal, it exists, it's a syndrome, it's there, but let's leave the disease separate from that, then someone can say it, but not

like this, we're doing good for the employer, no, no one is saying that the disease cannot be caused by work, we have people who commit suicide at the work table, no one is saying that work doesn't make people sick, they get sick and our fight has to be so that they don't get sick, but Bernal isn't that, I'm sorry to inform you, but burnout isn't That's it and why are we having to differentiate this so that what happened to Marcos doesn't happen, for example, he remains under Bernal's diagnosis, prolonging the suffering without knowing How it

is treated, let's give people the opportunity to call things by name and Treating it properly, that's what it's all about, good, very good, but hey, Marcos, I was, you were pointing out some questions that we have to answer and so on . I find it difficult for these generations not to answer yes to many of the questions that are related to Burnout, let's suppose if I don't like the job I'm at, if I don't like the people I work with and if I'm stressed by 1 million things and Obviously, I take the view that it's

related to work, it 's not easy to say that I have Burnout, that's not how we're taking too much ownership of the use of the expression, that's very good, Natália, what Bernal are you talking about, I quickly realized you were talking about Cristina's Burnout but it is anchored in the questionnaire, yes, that's why when you use this questionnaire it is very interesting, you know, because the author of the instrument herself says that it doesn't involve division, there are more or less 150 questions, eh 150 Points are 22 questions from 0 to 7, so that gives

more or less 150 Points in total for whoever answers all seven, right Uhum So she says that whoever answers all Seven, close to 150 Points, has a high grade of barn and whoever got zero there is no barn, there is a low degree, it does not exclude, in other words, everyone who responds will either have a high degree or a low degree and then you say but what do you mean if the majority of research is carried out with this instrument Why do some say that 30 % of certain workers T shouldn't be 100%, so

for everyone it's because each researcher attributes it in spite of what the owner of the instrument herself says, a cutoff point, some say it's 30, in my research I 'm going to use the instrument, but I'm going to say that is 30 the other will say it is 50 the other will say it is 100 then the percentage you want appears you will find it you will find it from 0 to 100% I have a study here that was published in the American Journal of the American Medical Association in 2018. Robust research was carried out

in 45 countries with more than 100,000 doctors over 27 years. They realized that of the 182 studies carried out, they found 142 Different definitions for what Burnout was, that is, each researcher set a cutoff point, giving 142 out of 182. In other words, the variation between doctors, meaning the same working population as Bernal, was from 0 to 80%, because no one used the literalness of what she recommends. because otherwise it would be 100% how do you trust an instrument like that, it doesn't work, so the WHO has in fact zeroed the game from now on,

the diagnosis of barnaut, you don't do it by handing out a questionnaire, just like in depression, I talk to the patient that you Yes, I have exhaustion, exhaustion and inefficiency and I'm feeling distant from work, okay, you filled out the symptoms, but tell me, it's related to work, not to the marriage, which is very bad, so sorry, but it's not Bernald, let's call it fatigue, okay, okay, no. It's work-related but let me evaluate Do you not have depression because if so, it's not Burnout anymore, it's depression It could even be work-related, okay, so now it's

no longer a questionnaire to make the diagnosis, so the game is zeroed in 2022 The game has been reset, all these statistics that we have we will need to review, they are no Longer valid because the WHO has reset the game and the fact that you like your work or not in this case does not influence the answer you will give. They are even talking a lot of nonsense about this, sorry to be emphatic, right? There are those who say that when you love your work you are much more predisposed to Burnout, this is not

true according to Schaufel When you love your work and you balance it well with your life Guys, you take better care of yourself, you take joy from work to your home and bring joy from home to work, what we're doing here is Romanticizing workaholism uhum, that's different, alcoholism is a personal characteristic, look, these people are making me feel bad Really used to it, it didn't come out, she just got up and she levitated, or she levitated along with what we're doing here is romanticizing alcoholism, a word coined in the 70s to allude to alcoholism. In

other words, when an alcoholic arrives here, we don't applaud, Of course. but if someone comes and says I'm a workaholic, applause for him because the culture values ​​this a lot so we have to call it by its name, he's a workaholic and any addiction doesn't end well. Research shows that workaholics, by concept, are people who give in to work more than the work demands, and when they don't do that, it's always their fault, a real obsession, so there, I ca n't, I can't, tequil, it hurts me too, it hurts me, that's the sin of those

who do it, you don't, right, that's one thing. extremely common but I wanted to understand so for example the UMS in 20 let me just tell you this story about alcoholism because I think this part is important and they dedicate themselves to work more than the work itself demands and when they don't do this they feel guilty so there in the Saturday afternoon, relaxing with the family, but here you are, you should be writing that report because I would be getting a lot more out of this time. This person, according to research, is not my

data. They have more problems with alcohol and drugs, they have more problems with separations with their wives. with a spouse there are more relationship problems with the child, that is, at the end of the day this is a loss for her and when you said it hurt, the first time I learned about this concept I said Wow, it's me because I like what I do, it's very seductive for me to give more to work than it Demands of me But I felt on my skin in 2013 the fruits of this imbalance here, including no one

is proposing a Mediocre life, no, you don't work 8 hours, you give yourself as much intensity as you can, but then desuga, deliver with intensity to the rest, to rest, to take care of the family, take care of the children, with futvolley, whatever it may be. And then you oxygenate one thing with the other, so when I heard about this for the first time and saw the catastrophic results of this, my life and in research I said I need to get out of this addiction let's start calling it by the name addiction So, you can

tell me how you solved it, how you cured yourself, I didn't cure myself today, I'm Clean tomorrow, I don't know, we're talking about an addiction, you know, and it's very seductive in the performance society to give yourself to work. more than he demands, sorry, no , but it was wonderful, Our Lady, I fell in love Oh, Marina Doctor, and it's good, UMS is coming in 2022, let's put it in this area, let's organize it, let's help ISO But up until then, you already have, uh, a crutch, a support so that the people and ask for

help because it's not just anything people are feeling fatigue They're feeling discouragement they're feeling things and they look at this Burnout publicity like puts Grill I have and it's a lot, Burnout is more interesting than depression, right? Let's make it clear that we have been pointing this out because depression has a negative nature of individual fragility and Burnout is something caused by work by a very dedicated person. In short, there is almost a choice of what I fit in and where I fit in. and now MS comes and says wait here we go I have

another look, my number one question is who diagnoses this because today in companies people have the possibility of filing a medical request that I don't know where it comes from and which seems to be very easy to get to realize that I have Burnout I have to take leave So I wanted to understand how the situation in companies is today and who actually has to give the approval that this is barn or not What type of doctor, the person has to look for it, okay, so I think it's improving, it's very, very slowly It's very

subtle But you observe, for example, the behavior of people whose Storytelling has always been anchored in Burnout, these same people are already starting to talk about other things and they really need to because there won't be any point in talking about Bernal as if it were a disease that's so serious against MS, soon she'll realize that it's a speech that won't stop standing, not that I love MS who agrees with everything that UMS says is not about that, but we are talking about the main health organization in the world, you keep going against this, it

won't work, right? talking about the right things, which is what work needs to reconcile productivity and people's mental health, that's it, that's not up for discussion. At least this movement is worth it, right? Bernal ended up drawing attention to mental health, very important, very important, who diagnoses it? cancel it because you deal with an issue that is often corporate, right, before talking about who diagnoses the barnaut I need to say which barnaut I'm talking about, I'm talking about the UMS bernau and the UMS bern he has a very emblematic phrase that doesn't Work gives the

possibility of double interpretation it places exclusions depression panic disorder mood disorder anxiety disorder in other words mental illnesses need to be excluded we live in a country that has a law which is the Medical Act Law The Medical Act Law says that the diagnosis of a disease, the doctor has to do it, so as long as barnaut is not a disease, Health Professionals could say the following Ah, since it is not a disease, then I, as a health professional, can make this diagnosis, it is not quite like that because there is a part of the

diagnosis which is precisely to exclude disease, who excludes it if not the one who confirms it? Of course, in an analogy, what is the exam that confirms someone's paternity other than the same exam that excludes someone's paternity? You understand, then there is a part of the diagnosis that seems to me to be essentially medical, which is the part about excluding mental illnesses in the face of a report from a doctor, any doctor can do that, unlike the psychiatrist who is much more connected to the topic in the face of a report Look, this is not

a mental illness and he is considered, for example, a psychologist there I Think everything is correct, the psychologist said that mental illnesses are excluded, so here I really am faced with Burnout, but there is another problem included in this diagnosis, the UMS classified Bernal as an occupational phenomenon, so we have a binomial, here it is a phenomenon where I see in the patient himself and in an occupational setting that I need to know if the company has psychosocial factors that make him sick because there are many companies that are trying to improve there are many

companies that make people sick the fact that I heard from someone that a company made him sick, that's me I need to check this other part, this other part is true even at this point the occupational doctor enjoys a greater prerogative because he ends up being within the company so when he analyzes the work and the person's symptoms he can say yes it is related to the work or not many will soon say but not the doctor work he is paid by the company itself how is he going to speak against it I was about

to say so I'm going to tell you something that I've never said this so publicly But there's a story very interesting that has Now emerged with the cfm I ​​need to talk about the numbers of the resolutions there is a resolution which is 2323 of the cfm which says the following the attending physician in the psychiatrist case he can ask the occupational physician for a report of the risks that exist there and From this report, yes, it can make a causal link when I say, for example, when I'm attesting to Burnout, I'm already making this

link because I'm saying that it's an occupational phenomenon, I'm saying that it's there, so based on In this document I can say, oh, there are risks in that company that actually support your diagnosis that your problem is there, so the psychiatrist doesn't necessarily need to visit the company, but he can ask the work doctor for this report, but the question remains. the occupational doctor says, will he say everything, this question remains why there is another instance, if this patient maintains that this is the case, the labor courts will appoint him, if he sues, the labor

courts will appoint an expert chosen by the judge who It has absolutely nothing to do with the company so that an analysis can be carried out there, so the story Doesn't end there, okay, it's not just handing over a piece of paper because the impression I have is that it's almost arriving with a written piece of paper, it's with Bernald you need to be away for two, three weeks, a month, if this hasn't become a practice of acceptance on the part of companies so as not to have pipino later, no, yes, the social security system

itself often receives the worker and doesn't give him time off, so this will be seen a lot if the case is not just a role, it's the patient, the resolution itself, the one I mentioned, 2323 says that it's up to the doctor's job to receive this patient, evaluate him and agree or not with a diagnosis that he eventually brings, sometimes he brings one one one one a certificate from a psychiatrist suggesting 30 days the doctor works can evaluate say don't wait I know your work I'll see you here you don't need 30 days sorry you

can go back to work or just stay away for 15 days in 15 days I'll see you again so it's not just handing over a piece of paper and that's it, that's why people are more aware of this today, good to know, Doctor, good to know, I think that living in the corporate world today, it's relationships, it's Work, they're very disposable, I say you live fast relationships just like the world and everything is very disposable eh The result is for yesterday the performance is for yesterday it's a demand on everyone, right result result performance Performance

in disposable relationships if you're not going to do it then I'll go to someone else if someone else won't do it, so I go to someone else all the time, you don't even have time and we talk about the importance of time for things to have a concrete result, a good result, this week I saw a sentence I even wrote it down to tell you because I I found it very, very strong. Emotional Intelligence is not about getting out of Chaos, it's about being in it and not leaving yourself when we talk about Burnout and

seeing this journey between the moment of Fatigue and until reaching the suffering of depression, we live chaos as society, I think that work relationships are increasingly complex, everything is much more difficult for you to orchestrate due to the immediacy, the toxicity of social networks, the results, so we experience this view much more and people, when you have a service company you depend on A relationship between people to obtain their work results, companies provide a service and you need this dialogue between the client and the service provider and often you can't, this client is paying the

company's bill, right? And how do you make sure that this client who is paying your company's bill doesn't affect his mental health so much, the mental health of your team and the people who are working with you, so it's very difficult today for you to lead teams that are suffering all the time. You know, living in this chaos and I tell my team a lot that it's not about not having this cause, I can't control what the client will say to you, I can only help you learn not to absorb it and see how you

live on top of it. on this front, right? But that doesn't mean that it doesn't generate fatigue and doesn't generate suffering in some way, it's going to be difficult but it can't hurt, right ? the time I say Oops, I 'm going You can save this question for a little while, let me take a look at what you Said because it's so beautiful [ __ ] hello, what you're saying is amazing, I have some trips here to do about it This is because we need to give a background on where we are when you were

published in Folha de São Paulo, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, that the rate of illness among children and adolescents already exceeds that of adults, the number of suicides among children and adolescents alone it increases, as in the elderly, also realize that we are talking about extreme ranges, people who are not even in the world of work or have even left it, this is the background of the world, there is no way, epidemiologically speaking, if we count on people with mental disorders in Street that companies reflect a reality very different from that we are a

bit like Brazil Germany we have to fight to not lose out of seven but in theory we are already losing people are getting sick right And then you mention some things that have reflections including wonderful philosophical order, everything is for yesterday, there is a lack of a project, a lack of meaning, the boys kill Themselves, right? What happens in companies reflects exactly what happens outside ? same way and And then I don't even condemn young people Maybe this is even a reaction mechanism, you noticed that companies change employees a lot, it doesn't pay off, go

away, so wait, let me get ahead of myself, how happens in relationships, people are with one but they are with plan B here on the side because this one doesn't work So this relationship is like this in the world everywhere and it's not just with generation z no this also impacts upwards I taught high school a lot time and in those 12 years that I had high school I realized how much this teenage generation impacts society as a whole, it's no wonder that great singers want to capture the teenage audience so that it never leaves

their heads, right? This is this movement Z of Fal of meaning of everything being for yesterday of not working out I'm going to change relationships that slip through my fingers As bman would say, right, so this is happening in companies and outside of it, right, this partly justifies, in my opinion, this lack Of meaning This increase in illness among young people and also people who have left the world of work and then we need to talk about work as a meaning of life for many people, right? According to the WHO, a 2006 study, work is

a protective factor against suicide, it is not a factor. of promotion As a rule, and precisely because of the social relationships that it provides, a person who leaves work finds himself an orphan, he loses the meaning of life, he loses relationships and this is very related to illness too, right, so just to emphasize exactly what do you say, I thought it was perfect and put some ingredients in my trip here, no, but not the trip, my question is for later, trip, no, I would be more functional, but I think I think philosophy is what makes

me actually nourishes, right? Because I think we have to be much more, right, the girls know, I'm in love with Vctor Frankel, right, and I study logotherapy, and for me, I think it's this existential void that's what we've always needed to connect with people. So I think we somehow need to help the new generations, right, And I say that I have a daughter and I tell her, daughter, if God gave me only you because I will help you to be a stronger human being, I will help you get ahead in a better way, but I'm

not saying it's going to be easy so we're going to persist we're going to insist we're not going to change So what I was going to talk about the functional part was about the moment of Fatigue And how can I manage it on my own because before I can ask for help I I need to have a snap from me, yes, it's because I think the Aid movement is already a second moment, I think sometimes it takes us a while to be able to ask for help because we can't reflect this perception, this awareness, we

need to ask for help if you work early, right? We, you talked about exhaustion, distancing, right, Inefficiency, but what are these factors that we can look at in the fatigue of this trilogy and here, putting it in occupational medicine, right, in this trilogy that I can anticipate, and realize this is consecutive fatigue. This is an element that, wait, I'm not getting what I can't solve, what I can't resolve, that will separate this wheat from the chaff, okay, so I think Identifying is the first thing we have to do within ourselves. and on the other side

, right ? Imagine you are also in a corporate environment, that's where I come from, so the earlier we carry out the intervention, the better the results, well how do we identify it? name, right, international classification of disease , it doesn't just define disease, so there's the poverty code, bad school results, things that make someone seek health services, even if it's not a disease, it's there, tiredness, it's there, and tiredness is defined as an alert diminished and a tendency to fall asleep I came home after a very tiring day and said now I'm going to

take a shower and get the best sleep and you lie down and sleep you're tired and the next day you're ready for another since the world It's been the world since we were there in the African Savannas . again, right, we don't just have Overload as a psychosocial risk. Oh, if you have, for example, enough rest time between one day and another, we can now say that there is no overload, it's related to work, but what does the what we do with this time, right? There are those who say that 1st 3rd of our lives

we spend at work, if that's true, the 2nd third has to be outside, what do we do with these 2/3rds, stay on WhatsApp answering work, it could also be there it means that there is not enough rest time, we need to take care of this so that there is a real disconnection, as many countries are already legislating about this, but I'm talking about calling ourselves responsible because I'm now going to talk about myself, okay? saying that people do this, I got home tired, I said today I deserve it and what is it like to rest,

take off your shoes, lay down on the sofa, pick up your cell phone and scroll, an hour goes by and I thought it was only 10 minutes, it flew by and then realizing at the end of that hour I'm more tired than when I entered at that time there's a phenomenon happening all over the world where people come back from vacation claiming to be more tired than When they left and one of the justifications for this is hyperconnectivity from the point of view evolutionary we are not prepared for so much information in a short space

of time this science many studies are calling it social media fatigue ISO is really happening so Renato Russo was right discipline is freedom even to rest we need to have discipline otherwise we won't will definitely rest so I couldn't rest due to factors related to work and others, I can get out of tiredness and arrive at the Other Station which is Fatigue Which which is the WHO definition exhaustion is exhaustion and ineffectiveness I start to realize that at this moment I start to have difficulty sleeping have you already been through that week of exams at

college that you studied on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday you arrived on Friday and said I promise that when I get home I will go to sleep when you got home you didn't make it your mind was racing you were already exhausted you had passed the tiredness stage you need more time to rest you start to not sleep well your efficiency decreases. that you used to do very Quickly you can no longer do it the memory fails you become more irritable more anxious so I would say it is a change in relation to your usual

state I am altered is there any I know myself better than anyone else I know that I am not in my normal state This should already attract attention. For a phase of exhaustion and fatigue in the company, the same thing, there are people who are very extroverted, you can immediately tell that something has changed. Wow, it seems that the mood has decreased. The report that I made one day is now taking five started to be absent drew attention to the exhaustion, it could be at work or we won't talk, right? Now she's the most introverted

people, these are sometimes more difficult, you start to notice more ineffectiveness, even some weaknesses in efficiency, which before for her was three toothpicks. easy now it starts to slip so it's time to call for active listening without judgment and forwarding to someone who can actually solve it, right? And here I said, well, I think I got lost, it was in the first part of the question, there's a second part, right? It wasn't, it was, it was. everything Marcos, the bad one even scored, right? I think I'm going to bring a little bit of experience here

From what happened to me and I'm like that, a lot of what you said connected here, well, I was diagnosed with depression when I was 18. 18 years old, when I had just started college, I had depression, diagnosed depression, which was the classic type of I don't want to go anywhere, I don't want to take a shower, I don't want to wash my head, I don't want to live, I had a few panic attacks, so it was, it was fine. very complex, I underwent the treatment, as you clearly pointed out, I come from a family

of doctors, and the warning sign quickly went off because I'm very extroverted, so it was very easy to notice the person suddenly becoming like this, and I underwent the treatment, which was really about getting the medicine right. dosage you start to feel really good, well, that's good, journalism school, and I had a life in journalism, so I worked in large publishing houses in 2016, I left journalism to open my own company, then I opened my agency, and that was my experience of I had a work-related illness, I really wanted my agency to succeed and I

started working like that a lot and then symptoms started which I pretended I wasn't seeing. So I Really started not sleeping, that's what started to catch my attention, it hung up I started to develop a syndrome that was related to WhatsApp every time a WhatsApp message popped up I trembled I was sure it was a work problem uhum so I started to have this and that started to increase in your own business in my own business That's why I want to tell you this precisely to get to where I want to get to in my

business. In other words, you're the one who sends this, which is sad, when I tell you, I say man, no one sent me and so, I imposed an insane work rate on myself and in people today I am fully aware that it was very complicated to live with myself as a boss with the work rhythm that I imposed and I started and I went on like this for months and suddenly my eyelid also trembled And then there was pain here pain there intestine bowel syndrome baa baa baa until one day I actually went to a

year-end presentation on a client's report, it was December, I'll never forget it because we were on a Thursday, Friday, we were going to have the company's Fest celebration. company and I was already in a Vibe like that, wow, people's lack of will when someone called me I no longer wanted to talk, like when the customer called me I no longer wanted to look at their face or people who worked with me I no longer wanted to see and they were my team and one of them was my husband, at the time I also no longer

wanted to talk about work and then one day I went to this presentation and I just blacked out, I'm presenting I'm going It goes away, people start disappearing, everything goes black, I start to feel sick and so on and I black out And then it's obvious, right? It was a shock, imagine when I came back, I still wonder to this day how it happened, I know fragments of that day and then I went to therapy total , right? And then we started some kind of treatment and I said PR, she said, Look, I don't know

why I only work, she asked, what do you like, I didn't know how to answer anymore, I was so far away from myself that I couldn't but knowing what I liked, which wasn't working and in the end I didn't even know but if I liked working because I was also fed up with everyone the question is was it my fault? here 10 is Here guilty I am because it was just me but Wait a little bit let me do you want to blame yourself No I want to know what I had, not me I want

to know about Marcos so I should have done differently like everything in the first fear of WhatsApp you should have already stopped, ok, no, because I swear, you have to be careful because otherwise you'll soon be blaming yourself and ok, it's not because you're not going to go back, you're not going to solve it back there now, but wanting because I can repeat it I know that I have a sane tendency Alert uhum you know when he talked about the orc holic it played here ah play it right I'm the person that the person asks

me for x I deliver three x if it's not four I'm guilty you know so therapy touched me, but I'm here to defend you from yourself this wonderful question because it brings up many difficult reflections, for example, when you are going to do a search for mental health and work, you 90% of searches are related to mental health in a corporate environment, who concerns about the mental health of the self-employed, who are already 60% of that of the working population, according to del lanet magazine, in the world there is no need to worry Is It

just because there is no one to blame Is it because when we bring self-responsibility we lose the IBOPE The cool thing is precisely that you have someone to sue later, right? What you bring is really cool because it is a deaf ABS contingent of people who now depend solely and exclusively on their self-knowledge to take care of them and your role here is emblematic and literate. people more than leaders people most of the contingent of people and this will be increasing there will be no boss yes So what is the limit that I will set

for myself, right ? I think this goes through self-knowledge and self-care, one thing, okay? closely related to the other, so I think it was worth coming here to testify again that holism is bad, yes, let's call it workaholism, let's call it something that is bad for people, right, oh, but and the outside world, then I I remember a really cool concept called psychological flexibility that has nothing to do with psychological security, which is a subject that you've probably already dealt with a lot here, which is a collective thing. Psychological flexibility Has to do with ourselves,

right? adjusting the many demands that we have, this is bad, where does this rule of having to deliver 3x come from, right? So, we need to look at ourselves to remember our principles and values. time health and money when you are little you have health you have time but no money when you are an adult you often no longer have time you even have some money and you still have health and in the end you will no longer have health There's time and money, that is, we can't have everything C either we're going to enjoy

ourselves on the way or there's no point in talking on purpose, the journey is every day and it's precisely in these spaces that I need to find time with a friend to take care of my daughter to travel with the staff and go back to work again, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's throwing a lot of different things up and trying to catch up with life at the same time and this isn't going to have a place to get to, we're doing it, building day by day, right? Eh, and this one This concept of

psychological flexibility is precisely what is of value to you. When you think about when you look at a person that you admire a lot, what that person has? Can't I first? It's already a big sign that this is of value to you. you too Maybe you're just neglecting this to fit in somewhere, but there is I like this so why don't we start living this even if it costs not producing 3x but producing x because when we anchor ourselves in values ​​and principles with peace of mind we begin to have what we call self-knowledge of

values ​​and principles, this allows us to be more flexible in the face of an external environment, there is a song by Legião Urbana that says: I always needed a little attention, I think I don't know who I'm just I know what I don't like I think I don't know who I am maybe I don't know myself that's why I need so much attention so when we get to know each other better we can very well produce 2x anyway, right, so let's enjoy the path here, taking it the way we can and having a life that's

a little lighter because there's already too much weight, so if you're the one who has to take care of yourself, the limit Is you who has to impose yourself because you're not going to having someone to handle the responsibility is yours, at first it can be very bad, but in the second it can be liberating in terms of self-knowledge, yes, our incredible, for those who are just listening, I'm here raising the 10 with great fury, I'm impressed with every time I, everything comes back, right, back in the body like this, you know, I and back,

we are, we are workaholics, let's make an air about it, we won one more, no, we have to take, I don't know, games so that we don't talk, you can put your hand here, we we can't lose sight of it rationally, from the time we wake up until the time we sleep, this is bad, we can't want it, it's bad, man, it's really bad, it's not good, no, my God, finish it, see, now she doesn't want to do it o don't want to finish the program I want to talk more but there's an hour and

we need it time an hour passed I didn't even see here I said PR damn Vit it's time for Boom fuck my Brain and it's time for Boom because I wanted to say no one here I wanted to arrive at the time of the Boom Although it is an important finishing touch to raise awareness, but beloved Jesus, we Need it and there is that feeling of wanting more, without a doubt, right, come on, we can do the Boom, so we can do the Boom after I report My experience, my body is still there feeling Burnout

again but this was group therapy from the first question, my friend, take yourself to that wonderful moment, delicious for your body and to another place, it's true, let's get better, let's get better here, eh, I will So I think I'm going to try what no one told you about Burnout, right, which is the title of this program from the doctor's wonderful book. I'm going to put here for myself what no one told me about Burnout is that it's about us and me I'm doing this again I think it's worth what Marcos said, right in no

way are we saying that companies don't get sick that work doesn't get sick but my Burnout as someone who had him as the owner of their business in the self-employed of the entrepreneur it's a lot about what I neglected in myself it's a lot about what I didn't listen to myself it's a lot about the limits I didn't set and it's a lot about the lack of value of other things besides work that I stopped noticing It's like If I had disconnected From myself, Burnout for me is a It's a feeling of disconnection completely from

Natália, you know, it's when almost nothing is funny anymore because there's only fun that isn't even funny What's sad about performing, delivering, staying, you know, in this thirst for delivery in this thirst for performance So what no one told me about Burnout for me is it's about self-love it's about self-knowledge it's about being generous with yourself being kind to yourself being understanding with you and having the courage to really look and see yourself as bigger than the work, you know, so for me, that's it, I know it's exciting, even because it touches me, it's not

technical like his, but it's mine, you know, for me, what it's like to talk a little about you coming back to love yourself, that you lose yourself in this process C Where the business lifts you now just to give weight to this rating rating 10 damn Ox and almost crying for a change almost crying the BS our our our lady Luciana good luck I like that Marina is sot have you noticed I got it guys I'm easy so she's in love with the accent I think we have to tell you right What no one told

you about Burnout is that it is very difficult to choose yourself in a society where you are made for Others, you have to perform for others, you have to do it for your child, for your home, for your family, I can't let you to give in because I can't allow myself, I can't allow myself to make mistakes because I have to support a family, I can't allow myself not to do that because otherwise I'll be discarded, I have to go further because there's another person arriving and I'm not there anymore I'm going to be considered

old So I think you feel guilty all the time about not allowing yourself and that takes you and builds a giant ball of emotions that lead you to Burnout so I have a lot of difficulty saying no to others because I don't like natural conflict, it's a characteristic of mine, I don't like displeasing others, I'm displeasing myself and I can't give myself that much, so I think that for me, who has already been through a process of depression, a process that has been going on since I was little, for several moments that I have been

evolving, I say this is my journey, right, of understanding my mental health and mental disorders from a very early age, since I was 8 years old, when there was no literacy for either of mine. parents who did what They could with what they had, you know, information, but today it's difficult. Even if I say no to my partners, it's to say that I'm not going to be here, I need to disconnect, I need to do this for myself, do this for others So I think for me what they don't tell you about Bernal is that

if you don't do it for yourself today it's not selfishness it's care it's affection you need to be affectionate with yourself so wonderful there's a little joke that changed my life and it has everything to do with What are you talking about, boy, he was reading the newspaper and his wife came to him and said, Our secretary is pregnant, he didn't even look at his wife, he said, "It's her problem, the wife said, but what do you mean, she says the child is yours, and he said, my problem, but wait a minute, you're my husband's

your problem, so let's each one solve their own problems, we don't need to be rude to each other when we tell each other that it's not, it's not up to us, but we have to set limits right and everything you say I identify with a lot, I have difficulty saying not me too because sometimes we come to speak in a place like this with so much exposure And notoriety and the people who are listening are mistakenly led to think that We are at a higher level of Wisdom, no headbanging all day with Orcar holism, difficulty

speaking, no, and what we do, we try to improve every day, it's the only thing left for us, nothing else, I love hearing this, I love hearing this, it's I, my boom side, will be more in the sense of, uh, put my feet on the ground a little because as a very fragile society, very much still trying to find itself at a moment in our history as a human being with so many stimuli, with so many organizational changes, with so many people in the world with so much news about the planet's ills, in short, there

are so many things that affect us, we are at a very sensitive moment in the history of humanity and psychologically this has a cost But instead of looking for a self -portrait, self-knowledge, self-care there is a risk of us stopping ourselves and in categories of how to name a disease as a shield for that and it worries me a lot to hear and understand because it makes a huge logic that the person would prefer a name of Burnout than depression If it were a depression Because depression has a much more negative nature than if it

were Burnout, which makes it a person oppressed by the employer society, so what are we doing with ourselves? I want to understand what I have to do to take care of myself and get better. I don't want to be framed in something to be seen in one way and have a behavior that won't lead to my health, right, we have to treat the disease the way it is, the disease that it is Yes, otherwise I won't be effective in the treatment, so it's very, very important to understand what I have to treat correctly, it's not

because one thing seems more interesting than the other, it's difficult and it's blunt what we're saying here because it goes against common sense goes against common sense, it's up to us to reflect because we're not here to behave like a herd, we're here to think together, each one But we also want to know your opinion, what do you think if it's just to curse? the time because but it is a reflection it has coherence Finally sharing it may be contrary to what we are saying there is no problem with education we always Thank you and

with these words Dr Med thank you very much see let me just make a compliment please of course you did of a very rich material, what Natália said, we ended up playing a little for the self-employed worker, right Natália, but we need to return the balance to the middle, work, and people need to walk in a balanced way, so for those in the corporate world, we know that Harassment, according to del Lan magazine, increases the possibility of depression at work almost three times, so there are truly sickening jobs and companies that are facing this head

on are increasing productivity, so it's a really cool match for capitalism that you can improve people's mental health and increase productivity , there are several studies already in the personal field, the same thing if we balance ourselves better we even produce more deliveries, sometimes even four and not just three, right? Eh, and about what you said, sometimes a lot of people will think like this right, the guy said all this about Burnout Because only those who have had Burnout know, it's something I hear a lot on social media, our experiences Are unique Only those who

hit their pinky on the foot of the bed know what it is now, it's not because It happened to me that I'm going to value the severity of this, it's not me who values ​​it, those who value this are instruments already recognized worldwide, such as the WHO, so I'm sorry for the appreciation that some have for Burnout, but according to the WHO, this is not as serious as a disease. mental illness that can be caused by work, no one is saying no, so sometimes I see a lot of people say wow, but mine in my

Burnout, I had depression, I thought about committing suicide, I lost weight, I'm sorry, but this level of severity has been beyond Burnout for a long time, and if You're in this mess Sometimes you're being treated badly, let's treat them by the correct name because the result is better, that's what we hope for people, that's our role in promoting mental health in companies and also outside of it Marina Wow, I was going to do it That's it now, I'm afraid, thank you for the opportunity, it was an immense pleasure, always count on me, thank you, when

you have the bands in São Paulo, give us that touch so we can resume this conversation very well, Dr Maros, Thank you from the bottom of my heart, thank you, you who stayed with us until The end of this conversation remembering to please continue following our work, if you liked it, please click here, subscribe, press the bell so you don't miss any content on YouTube @canal fmy Brain we are also on several audio platforms including Spotify @fm Brain we are on Google podcast on Deer on Amazon music you can't miss it and on our Instagram

Attention girls @fm pbin remembering the subscription club but I already mentioned it at the beginning you probably got it thank you all so much for participating, we'll take care of ourselves Let's take care of ourselves let's take care of people Let's take care Mental Health is the basis for everything bye [Music] bye fuck my brain