To Us, They Serve Different Purposes: EAM Jaishankar on India’s BRICS & QUAD Diplomacy

one of the world's Premier conferences on geoeconomics and geopolitics IT addresses the most challenging issues facing the indopacific and the global order after the successful first Australian Rosena in Sydney last year we're back Boyd and delighted to be hosting an even bigger event here in the nation's capital thanks of course to the enthusiastic support of the indefatigable Samir sarin and his ORF team once again we are honored to be joined by Dr shenka who will help us open this year's dialogue I also thank India's Ministry of external Affairs and Australia's Department of Foreign Affairs and

trade for their support and my thanks and acknowledgement to Google Australia for its support uh I recognized that Google was of course with us last year for the inaugural Rosena in Australia and we're delighted that this year's dialogue Builds on the First with an expanded agenda that reflects the growing nature of the AAL Australia India relationship this really is a partnership for the future the agenda to borrow from foreign minister Wong's words sees the world as it is but seeks to shape it for the better not just for Australia and India but because it's in

the interests of the broader Indo Pacific we know that the indopacific is a dynamic region with enormous appetite for growth cooperation and Partnerships and part of that Regional dynamism is a diversity that brings together developed and developing economies Advanced industrial and technology- based economies and non-industrial economies this means there's no one-sized fits-all approach to the challenges and opportunities we Face from climate and cyber threats to capacity building and connectivity Rosena down under looks beyond the Australia India partnership to provide a pragmatic dialogue convened to discuss the Practical issues confronting the entire region we'll explore climate

action infrastructure development and cral critical minerals and Technologies doing so in each case with a persistent focus on collective security and prosperity we'll hear from senior ministers including of course external affairs minister ja shanka shortly and Australia's climate change and energy Minister Chris Bowen tonight along with Japan's Vice Minister for foreign affairs Masahiro Kamura tomorrow we'll hear from a range of foreign ministers uh Australia's foreign minister Penny Wong and New Zealand's Deputy Prime Minister and foreign minister Winston Peters we'll also hear from our resources Minister meline King on critical minerals and from Senator smon Birmingham

the shadow foreign minister and that's just the politicians we'll also have senior industry figures intelligence officials including o Andi head Andrew Sher and of course Civil Society thinkers so it really is a packed dialogue and with the US presidential election happening in the middle and all around the dialogue we also have the opportunity to reflect on the next steps that for the Partnerships that Define the Indo Pacific let me say once more how pleased I am to be here uh with you all uh and of course uh with uh my friend and friend of Australia

Samir sain uh and I very much look forward to a thought-provoking dialogue uh and I'm sure you'd all be looking forward to hearing from Samir quickly before we uh formally open the dialogue thanks very [Applause] much thank you Justin and thank you for uh welcoming us to Australia once again for Rina down under I was telling my colleagues in Delhi that when you when you hosted this for the first time this was a passion project but when you do it for the second time it's a commitment and I think Rina Down Under the second time

around is a commitment of ORF of the Rina platform to create a dialogue for the Indo Pacific which sees voices issues and outcomes that serve communities people and of course governments uh that are seeking to navigate interesting times I just want to make three points the first that this room is full of those who have changed the India Australia relationship over the last 10 years I can see so many of them and I don't want to list them but literally each one of you in this room has somehow change that bilateral and of course U

uh one of the principal architects of that change will be with us on the stage Dr ISJ Shankle let me acknowledge him he's joined us in the room at this stage but each one of you in some ways has changed that relationship and I think it has just begun the next decade offers us Bountiful opportunities and we will have to put our Collective Minds together to find ways of catalyzing and in fact in many ways capitalizing on what we have achieved over the past decade so that's the first thought that all of you who have

worked so hard to make this relationship happen have another decade of hard work ahead of you and I think that's the first point Rina platform seeks to bring all of you together in some ways to contribute to that the second times have changed when we started changing our relationship the world was very different at this stage it's a it's it's a new world out there of course we all looking forward to the election results tomorrow but irrespective of uh who is elected in Washington DC the message coming out of most capitals today is quite clear

that it's a do-it-yourself world we will have to build smart coalitions smart plur lateral groups smart collectives fit for purpose agile Nimble responsive and purpose-driven communities of purpose will have to in many ways fill the void that effective multilateralism has left behind in its demise in some ways so that's the second question that we need to build communities of purpose and we need to bring voices from across the region this is not about India it's not about Australia it's about communities that that that depend on on stability prosperity and predictability in that region that must

participate in setting the agenda and the conversations that follow and we in the second edition have done precisely that from Tonga to Honolulu from Fiji to bhan we have voices of those who have stake in the future of this region sitting and and and telling us how they believe the world must look like in in years from now and I think that's a second message let's build communities let's look beyond our nose the third let's be happy you're all looking sad here this is this is a celebration I think this is not a somber occasion

this is an occasion to celebrate uh two very proud democracies meeting some very other proud Nations and discussing real issues through real conversations so I want all of you to be provocative in your interventions question them when they speak on the stage no free lunches please be please be tough on the speakers other than the last panel where I'm speaking but uh but but please do participate uh and we want it to be a dialogue and not necessarily A unidirectional conversation so I look forward to hearing from each one of you over the next uh

16 hours or 18 hours that we are together and and thank you so much for joining us now without further Ado let me introduce uh the headline session that opens up rinaa down under 2.0 uh in conversation with Dr SJ Shankar Dr J Shankar requires no introduction but uh for those who are new and those who are watching us online not only is he uh one of the most eminent and foremost uh foreign ministers in the world today he's also a career Diplomat who has served extensively uh in the in in his ministry as a

practitioner and has uh held various positions and posts um Dr J Shankar obviously also uh is is something else and I'm going to give you a private tidbit uh and I and I and I look forward to having that conversation with him tomorrow he's also a cricket fan he loves the cricket game and the a new zealanders have given us a thrashing and he's going to be on stage tomorrow I think that's a good conversation to have sir but he is a cricket fan as well but most importantly I think he has in some ways

taken foreign policy to the masses and to the streets in India in India today you have young people people from all sections of society and and and and different regions participate in foreign policy Indian foreign policy is more plural and more engaging than ever before so he's going to speak to us today the and and to to have that conversation with him let me introduce my colleague Justin Basi the head of ASP who's been the driving force behind this dialogue someone who served in government and now serves all of us outside of government so Justin

let me hand it to you thank [Music] [Applause] you back thank you thank you Samir uh for that uh Dr Jenka thank you for uh being back here in Australia and for uh re enlivening uh the resia dialogue down under as Samir said for uh for 2.0 uh and uh to your uh to your credit into um the team's credit uh you are absolutely uh living up to the Rosena uh being a dialogue uh and uh being involved in an in conversation uh allowing us to Canvas a full range uh of issues so uh welcome

uh it's an absolute pleasure U for us to be able to share this time with you thank you it's good to be back great um it's uh uh I would love to spend the entire time talking uh cricket with you but the substantive issues really I think um are incredibly important um covering a full range of issues uh I'd love to have some time uh towards the end uh opening up to some audience questions uh so if you have a few uh think of a few uh um very important questions and we'll try and C

as many as possible um but starting uh drenka uh with the Australia India bilateral uh relationship both uh initially as foreign secretary uh and now of course as foreign minister you have helped drive a remarkable strengthening of the bilateral relationship with greater collaboration across a wider range of issues than we have ever had before so what is it about Australia that means India has been Keen to deepen that cooperation uh across uh multiple issues uh from uh the uh the Diplomatic to the defense areas um well uh first of all Justin uh thank you for

not starting with Cricket uh it would have been a little painful uh but so let's talk about something a little more positive as the first question which is Australia uh till the cricket happens then then we'll have a different conversation um uh look uh you know uh some time ago uh I started actually reflecting on why the Cor has worked the way it has and my thesis which is part of a book uh was uh yes there's the obvious explanations you know changing geopolitics Global Goods deficit Etc but an important part of the explanation is

actually that uh India's different bilateral relationships with quad members have grown very substantially in this period uh now the other three quad members have a different history and a different closer relationship uh and the change in a way I would say from 2007 when quad was first attempted to 2017 when the quad was more successfully done the second time is actually the change in the bilaterals uh and I would say probably the bilateral which has changed the most is Australia uh and uh uh you know one metric of uh how a relationship is really uh

is uh okay so how often did the PMS meet and I think we had what about a 30e spell where our PMS never actually formally sat down compare that to today when we have agreed on the practice of an annual Summit uh and uh I I look uh you know at my own predecessors I mean this is my fifth visit to Australia in the last three years u i suspect if I looked at the last five visits of foreign ministers probably take many you know probably double digit years uh and if you go beyond that

you look at uh the quality of our defense cooperation today uh the the fact that we been able to do the first phase of a free trade uh agreement uh the fact that Australian universities were the first universities to come and say okay we are prepared to explore a new Indian policy regarding uh foreign educational uh presence uh I I look at the Indian diaspora numbers uh so I I I look at the trade volume uh which is I think $48 billion right now uh so uh it was it was a relationship whose potential to

me was waiting to be realized it needed an effort on you know somebody had to bail the cats uh and it's so happened in 2014 that there was a justos of circumstances that happened and I must say this to the credit of everybody thereafter you know people have have built on it uh layer by layer uh and uh uh when when I see uh I mean every conversation I have we actually come up with something new to do I mean even on this visit and I'm not yet done with my conversations in this town uh

I was in Brisbane uh two days ago uh and I visited the uh HR Warehouse uh that defat runs uh and uh you know uh it was a warehouse which helped us deliver uh relief material to P Papa New Guinea uh and when I look at it you know I mean this this is a platform which would be very helpful to us uh we could think of in fact how it could be helpful to quad as well uh so uh the more we do the more Poss possibilities open up uh I think somewhere we needed

uh we needed to there were some preconceptions on either side I mean let's be honest about it uh that we had some image of you and you probably had the same of us which somewhere held us back I think once we have overcome it we are today really the relationship is on a role uh on a role it is um and uh I think the bilateral relationship um which has gone from strength the strength then U goes into um the minilateral you mentioned the quad uh so let me ask you uh something you have canvased

before you've been asked about previously um that India's simultaneous active engagement of groups like The Quad uh along with groupings like bricks uh which are seemingly contradictory groupings uh your response has consistently been uh that India is able to walk and true gum at the same time and of course the the ability to understand uh All Nations and work with all parties is vital uh Australia has missions all over the world including places like Moscow and tyan of course so my my impression uh Minister has been that India sees value in being in all these

groupings but doesn't always necessarily see them as equal how how how do you as foreign minister uh and how does India navigate uh these these different relationships to still Ensure that countries around the world see India U as a large nation that prioritizes the protection of international rules um you know uh again uh we history uh political culture um to some extent a kind of a security thoughts all these feed into uh decisions you make uh in the case of Australia uh I mean you have uh a long uh you know uh very old treaty

relationship with the United States uh which is your primary uh security I mean it's the anchor relationship in a way uh that's not been our history uh our history has been really to kind of maximize space and options and gain more maneuvering ground and uh try and do more things uh you know Aon usly uh so that's where we are coming from now uh given that uh it's natural today uh when actually the world is uh much more uh fragmented uh when in in one sense clearly much more multipolar uh much more complicated uh that

you know it's uh it's not um it's not uh uh easy to to say today okay you know these countries are on that side and those countries are on that side there's a lot of cross Holdings uh in a way uh and uh given all that uh we do think that uh uh the ability uh uh to uh to in fact not just the ability the strategy uh to be uh to have you know a presence in different groupings and develop working combinations with different countries because each one of them has a logic of its

own you know and and I would not uh I would not set uh one uh against the other I mean to us we really honestly and you know I'm I'm not being uh clever here in my argument we honestly don't think being members of bricks uh excludes you from being members of quad because to us they serve very different uh purposes I would quad has a certain Indo Pacific context uh again the manner in which it grew the uh the building blocks of quad uh were very different uh in the case of bricks it was

really a coming together of uh some large countries who whose common uh feature in many ways was that they were non-western uh so by joining quad now I don't become Western I mean I still remain nonwestern I'm not anti-western but I'm not Western so uh so I I think uh in fact uh in many ways I would argue that this uh uh multiplicity of memberships uh and being able to navigate them uh are are natural I would even go a step further and say uh actually there's a service we can do by this you know

at a at a time when uh you know the world is very polarized and countries often don't communicate with each other uh uh I I look at the world today uh and let's take the two big conflicts which are underway Ukraine and uh the Middle East there are not too many countries and too many leaders who can go to Moscow and go to KV and go to tan and go to uh to Tel Aviv uh so uh yeah no there aren't uh that's that's for sure uh and I think that the the the world uh

does uh look to you uh look to India in many ways to uh to play uh a uh a balancing role in many of these uh these areas uh and perhaps uh from from Australia's perspective to keep an eye on um some other other countries as well can I can I raise um uh the the the recent bricks uh and um some of the language in uh the Kazan declaration uh that um interests me and I think it interests many people uh in Australia and the region uh that goes to show I suppose how challenging

you talk about it being fragmented and complicated the world how how challenging it is um to manage all these groups the the the language in the Declaration um indicated that the sanctions for example against Russia um for its invasion of Ukraine were unlawful coercive U measures and it also described Israel's pager operation against um Hezbollah as a premeditated terrorist act so is that just is that part of the navigation that India needs to go through to make sure that is part of these groups uh and and can play um the important role the large Nation

India is or uh is it becoming more difficult uh when perhaps uh suppose in my view some of those bricks countries are imposing on others in a way that maybe the quad Democratic countries aren't imposing in in their field well you know negoti or negotiations you know whether uh it's once you are inside a room everybody tries to get their point of view reflected uh to the best uh so it's not like one particular group has very heated negotiations and the other ones uh giving all members a free pass it doesn't happen that way uh

what really you know the reality of uh uh my job is uh in each each of these groupings and any other grouping you go to you enter the room with some key objectives you know others do the same uh often they could be uh uh they could differ uh sometimes in Nuance or emphasis sometimes much more fundamentally uh and then um you try at the end of an outcome document to uh to get the best you can so I don't you know if you look at any Gathering and you ask uh a country saying did

you you know is this the perfect document did it reflect everything you which is your National position I think anybody truthful will say no it did not because every every Gathering every outcome document is some kind of compromise to some degree so often therefore when you uh you know present me with this kind of situation I would say well you know that was our position in the bricks that does not mean it would necessarily be our position somewhere else I mean life is a degree of maneuverability and uh adaptation and some give and take and

uh uh some willing and dealing yeah no makes sense so so uh standing by principles but adapting to particular audience uh that makes sense the uh you you refer minister to the importance of negotiations um I I think a lot of countries including Australia looked to your relationship with China um that uh and the negotiations across a range of issues that uh that India is has dealt with and of course recently the two countries announced a Way Forward on issues concerning the the disputed border border area uh that does seem to validate um the the

idea of negotiation uh and uh give and take and that di that diplomacy remains vital uh in resolving these disputes um we of course have been there before uh when it comes to China and making agreements and then breaking agreements uh so Keen to hear your thoughts on where you see the India China uh relationship having now made that seeming breakthrough where do you see that relationship going the next few years given that it's not just important for India and China but the the relationship is really vital for the region itself yeah uh well uh

uh just let me split that into three parts what did we just negotiate what still lies ahead of us uh and uh uh in a sense what's our uh medium longterm view of uh the particular relationship what we negotiated just now uh on October 21st was the last set of what we call disengagement agreements which essentially means that after the summer of 2020 uh Chinese and Indian troops uh have been deployed have been forward deployed you can say uh along the line of actual control uh in uh distances which were extremely concerning uh and uh

uh the the priority has been to find ways of uh separating the troops which is why the word disengagement uh having them go back to their normal you know operating basis as far as possible uh and also resuming petrol uh in the way in which it used to be done uh in 20 uh 20 now uh this lot of the the last set of the last agreement you can say uh primarily related to uh two areas uh uh which had to do with petring uh where there were obstructions to the petring and those obstructions uh

were resolved uh and the expectation is that petring there would resume in fact it is happening as we speak it'll take a little while because it's it's so we did the initial verification petring then the actual petring takes place uh after that now that's the part which we have got done so you can say in a way the disengagement uh chapter is done its implementation will happen in the coming days to everybody's satisfaction uh and the part which now awaits us the immediate part which awaits us is what we call the deescalation which is the

buildup of forces along the line of actual control because both of us uh in our case it was a counter deployment in their case was the initial deployment uh we have many more forces with much greater uh weapon then existed along the line approximate to the line uh before 2020 so we have negotiations ahead of us uh during this period our relationship was also very profoundly affected because uh it has always been assumption on our side that peace and Tranquility in the Border areas is a prerequisite for the development of our ties and since peace

and Tranquility was Disturbed including one major incident of Bloodshed uh uh we you know our relationship with China has cut back in different ways uh so we also have to look at it now everything is not going to happen at once I mean there will obviously be discussions of various kinds but at the meeting uh with the the formal bilateral meeting between Prime Minister Modi and presidency which was actually happening after 5 years uh what was agreed was that the foreign minister and the uh National Security advisor we would meet our counterpart uh and so

would you know the relevant officials and find ways by which we will have to discuss you know how do we normalize the relationship uh and you know what would be the extent and the pace and the manner in which we would do that uh the third part is okay but how do we actually see that relationship uh you know it's it's really in a way um quite a challenge because you have two you know in know the two most populous countries in the world both of whom uh have been rising uh they are rising in

a broadly parel time frame uh physically next to each other uh in a manner in which I would argue there are very few historical examples uh and how do you uh establish an equilibrium uh equilibrium between yourselves at in the Border uh border areas which happens to be disputed as well uh as well as establish a working relationship uh uh in on other issues you know Regional issues multilateral issues uh how does how do your new expressions of uh influence and activities impact on the relationship you know where do they uh in a way uh

uh come into contact with each other I think these are really a very complex set of issues and uh uh do require a lot of uh thinking and management I think uh a lot of the regional countries can can learn from what you're doing and you mentioned equilibrium it's definitely a word that Australia's foreign minist uses uh a lot as well I'm I'm Keen to uh um uh give the the uh the audience out here a chance to to ask you a couple of questions as well I think we've got some some roving uh mics

if you uh if you see the roving mics and want to uh gesture towards them please please do so there's a hand over here thank you so much uh minister my name is l come from diplomatic Academia of Vietnam I have um two question for you um the first question is that um uh I know that you are the uh author of the book uh Indian way so I just would like to explore um in your op opinion what is um the Indian way um or what is the Indian strategic priority in the face of

uh more and more a stronger and stronger collaboration between China and Russia that is my first question and if I may um I do have the second questions um my second question is that um in your opinion how China um how India and the and and the global South um will will will do in um the Hightech and the crit critical Tech competitions um between the US and China and between the other power um in which um in which way that they can reduce the over dependence and increase autonomies thank you um well actually you

had three because you had India way you had Russia China you had iset uh so uh look the reason I wrote uh the first book was I was uh I just ended uh 41 years in the Foreign Service uh I felt I'd learned something in that period uh and uh felt this great urge to expressed that something uh impros uh and um uh part of it was also a few things which provoked me uh you know um there was there's this big debate exactly is there an Indian strategic uh School of thinking uh and uh

uh the the our own internal debate in India saying how much are we learning from our own history our tradition our experiences so the idea was uh to draw on our analogies on our history on our epics uh and uh create a a kind of a framework which would then uh be popularized into uh others sort of thinking along similar lines so that that frankly was was the uh Endeavor uh the Russia China issue uh look uh if if one uh looks at the Continental land mass uh I mean but I please do not take

it in any other way than I mean it there are three big there are three big countries uh north to south Russia China India there are other countries some of them big as well uh but these are the three largest countries now it's been uh almost I would say a kind of a strategy one on 101 for us that if there are three of three big players who are approximate to each other uh it's in our interest to make sure uh that remembering the uh basic geometry we learned in elementary school that two sides of

a triangle will be bigger than the Third never allow two sides to come to a point where the third is utterly disadvantaged uh so this is not something which has happened now uh it's been really for us almost like uh one of the first principles of our foreign policy or our national strategy in a way uh and it remains a concern uh and I would even argue going beyond that uh at a time when Russia's uh options uh Russia's relationship with the West uh is very badly damaged uh and Russia is turning more and more

towards Asia uh it's useful uh in Asia uh that we give Russia more options so that would be an advice I offer to Vietnam as well uh so I think uh the more um sort of broadly Russia is engaged by Asian countries uh frankly uh that will allow that much more diplomatic political flexibility for everybody concerned this is not to say it's not directed against any particular country I think this is the way the world should be run in our view everybody should get more space more options more more solutions uh and it makes for

a uh more you know let us say more exciting life uh and uh you know that's what we all want uh your your third question on iset uh uh you you know there are there are issues where sometimes being close to the middle and focusing on expanding your State uh space is a primary objective uh there are issues on which uh doing collaborations are your primary objective uh at that stage this is not one of those issues you look for balancing so much you actually look for practical outcomes you look at a choice of partners

and say Which choice of Partners is likely to be more advantageous to me uh uh certainly from an Indian perspective I would say uh for us uh you know uh by and large uh the Western World specifically the quad even more specifically the United States uh is uh a very crucial uh I said partner uh and uh you know that's really the direction you should be looking at where are concerned thank you I think because that was three questions we might have chance for maybe uh one more before uh uh moving on to our to

uh Minister Bowen session um with the Indian Community being the quickest uh growing community in Australia um with such a large diaspora as uh foreign minister what would you suggest that the Australian Community can do to encourage the diaspora here but also the relationship uh with India uh discuss more Cricket uh but uh no look uh seriously uh if I look at the big diaspora uh societies uh and and again you know um there are different kinds here some are more temporary some are very narrowly work Focus some are with families some are without families

but uh uh the the the kind of diaspora I see growing in Australia uh I I honestly think uh that it holds the key to the future of our ties it's not the only key but it's a very important key because the uh the model in a way the unconscious model uh which is shaping my thoughts is really the manner in which our relationship with the US transformed you know I I don't think it's a coincidence uh that um the change the uh change in India us relations can be almost completely correlated with the growth

of the diaspora in the United States so uh uh there's an obvious lesson there what can the uh Australian Society do in a way uh well it can obviously I I think make the best use of the diaspora make them more comfortable uh encourage them to maintain their uh identity and to serve as a living Bridge uh and I would say uh if the Comm you know uh look uh where India is concerned the diaspora is usually very comfortable with the Home Country uh and and some of it is in the nature of the diaspora

you know people leave for non-political reasons uh they tend to be family Centric they tend to maintain family bonds back home uh so there's a lot of travel uh and and contacts in a way between the diaspora and the country of origin so I would say the more the diaspora is made comfortable the more they are seen as equal Partners in Australia the more they are likely to serve actually as a as a almost as the ballast of the of the growing uh relationship uh thank you uh and uh you have been uh very kind

with your uh time uh I haven't left enough time for questions but uh the the good news is you are back with us tomorrow uh with a with a session with your counterparts ministers Wong and and Peters uh so there will be uh more opportunities uh but I I can't let you go without saying that obviously the dialogue is happening in the middle of the US election or the US election is happening in the middle of dialogue um who uh who do you think is going to win the the future president of the United States

good good uh and you'll work with whoever that may be uh great well Minister Jenka thank you for opening uh the resident dialogue in dialogue um you can't we're willing to canas a whole range of issues uh and I hope the rest of your trip is a successful one thanks very much thank you J [Applause]