The Wise, the Foolish and the Evil (Dr Henry Cloud)

in my work which is is mostly you spent with CEOs and executive teams talking about all the things of leadership and you know always go into thing and this is great we're gonna talk about vision casting and being a change agent aligning behaviors and cultures and all this sort of stuff and I swear it happens every time it is just not that long into the conversation before the topic turns to that guy I got this guy or this woman I don't know what to do with the CEOs will say or the leader will say and

I say well what's the deal and we'll go into a process that they think and and you know innocently so is so unique that they've got this person and and these are people that lead sometimes very significant things you know CEOs of big public companies Ken's of billions of revenues and tens of thousands of people a lot of experience and all the way down to two smaller firms in churches leaders with experience but they think it's unique but it's not and once you understand that this guy that they're having problems with is not that unique

and you got the formula I promise you and you'll get your five cents back if this isn't true what's your if you can implement what we talked about here today you can literally save years of time but more than that I'm gonna start with kind of the end in mind here more than that is this wherever you are God has called you to be a steward over a vision a steward over a vision for the specific reason of changing something in a community or a world or family or a nation and here's the big leadership

question for this moment are you going to allow this guy to stop your vision or this woman that may report to you or be on a team or somewhere and the topic today is what do you do with that kind of person that maybe as we will see very very gifted maybe the smartest cookie at the table may get great results but there's some issue that is not changing with them that robs you of your joy keeps you up at night and also sometimes has the power to stop an entire organization to stop an entire

mission through either non performance or their divisive Nisour just what they infect the system with or whatever the issue is so in this session we're going to talk about a simple tool to begin to figure this out now I'm going to give you the orienting question and basically we could find a lot of words for this but it's this what does a person do when the truth comes to them that's the diagnostic question as you evaluate your people what does a person do when reality comes to them all systems of leadership will tell you that

one of the biggest first tasks of the leader is to figure out what reality is and then to make that reality engage Abul and workable within what you're leading but what do you do if you've got people that you're trying to give reality to and they're allergic to that reality that's our question for today now I'm not going to act like feedback is easy to receive how many of you just love to get feedback right I mean sometimes it's hard I I've been on the road a lot and that's getting fat again you know I

lose my routine I'll lose my structure and so I read one of my stupid books and it says there it drives me crazy the same principle all the way through where your where your maturity is not strong enough to do something add external structure I go okay so I hire a trainer I go alright I'm not getting this done on my own so I get a trainer so I go to the gym I hire this woman and she is tough and she's working on me but I'm actually kind of proud of myself because I am

doing I'm doing all the workouts you know she's beating me up every day and I'm in there and you know it's all going well and I've been in it for a little while at this point and one morning she's just beaten me to death and I and it dawned on me and I looked up and I said oh no I stopped she said what I said we forgot to take the before pictures this is an awful waste she looks at me and she says oh we still can [Applause] feedback is not that easy to hear

sometimes is what it is but you know sometimes our feedback is not that great either I remember one time when I was in graduate school I had two German Shepherds and I lived in a small duplex and the houses were closed and I was I was watching TV one afternoon in a golf tournament there was a knock at the door I go outside and there's a police officer at my door and I said yes and he said well I got to talk to you we got a complaint I said what's the complaint he says cruelty

to animals I say cruelty to animals he said yeah do you have two large dogs and I said yeah he said well we got a complaint you're cruel to them and so these are the most pampered dogs in Southern California I mean I'd take them out to lunch it restaurants I travel I put him in the dog hotel they got cable I mean come on he says well it's what it says you know I said well specifically what is it saying he says well you don't feed your dogs and you don't scoop their poop that's

it officer you're gonna have to pick one of those he's looking at this thing I said if I ain't feeding them there no food because it's kind of stupid isn't it okay so some feedback it's our fault but I'm gonna assume for this session that you're giving good feedback there's all sorts of guides on that in in necessary endings I've got a guide on that you can find stuff out there I'm gonna assume you're good at it but here's the problem you make an assumption as a leader as well and I know you do cuz

I've worked with you and here's the problem you are probably at this level of leadership you're kind and you're responsible and when you're a kind person a responsible person what happens when somebody comes and gives you feedback and they show you know that report you wrote or that talk you gave or that meeting it led you know it it kind of was not so here you ought to change this and what you probably do which is why you got to where you are today is you listen and you go oh really tell me how and

you take that feedback and you adjust and you're thankful for it and you get better now the problem with you because you're like that you lead like that and you think other people are like you well that would be nice if we lived on Mars but on planet earth and not everyone is like you and in fact the Bible teaches very specifically in all psychiatric research and all leadership research will also tell you that not everybody's the same and therefore you cannot deal with every person you lead the same and that's what nice responsible leaders

do and that's where they make their mistake you've got to diagnose who you're talking to and then deal with them appropriately so that you will not lose your mission or your joy so what we're gonna do is we're gonna give you three categories of people now I hate systems that put people into categories but this is just true I'm sorry actually I didn't make it up it you know it's right there in the pages of the Bible but it's also documented by a lot of other research which uses a little friendlier names but let's use

the ones the Bible uses it says that some people are wise some people are fools and some people are just plain old bad there's some bad people out there and you know what the larger your organization gets the more likely you're to gather these now sometimes if you begin something you don't have them in the beginning because you start with friends and people you know and all this within people hire people and all that and things just can get out of hand but you're gonna find these in the population okay now if you're not comfortable

with saying that there are groups of people like this which is kind of not true anyway because the reality is all of us have all of these parts it's just some people kind of make a career out of one of them now and we're gonna camp out there for a second okay but let's get the easy one out of the way first what is a wise person the definition or the description of a wise person is this when the light comes to them that person adjusts themselves to match the light when the truth comes to

them they change something themselves or something to match reality that's wisdom what does the Bible say correct a wise person and he will be wiser still so how do we get better we have a character that listens to the light so like the story I told yesterday at the breakfast I said you know there's a dog food company and sales are bad and dog food company owner says fire the marketing team get new packaging sales still say bad you know the next quarter fire them sales sales still are bad fire them he does this for

about a year finally a little guy on the back roads of Santa sister says yeah he says the dogs don't like it you know a wise person does at that point we tweak the formula but some people are so stuck we'll get to them in a minute but the Wiseman's tweak the formula we listen to the truth there's another quality of the wise person here and this is one that I really love is when you confront them this is what you see you get a smiley face they thank you thanks I appreciate that we can

still take the before pictures that's good marah's doing a retreat for a small group of pastors that go off once a year they're from all over the country and they lead big things and and the first tonight I got them together I said so tell us what you want from from this retreat in the first one says oh I'm an awful place I I built this ministry with my best friend we had been together since youth working days and said he just split the church and left and started in the church right at the end

of a building program he said I'm just I don't know what I'm gonna do turning the next one he said my wife hasn't spoken to me for six months I turned to the next and he said well it's obsolete for me things are growing and booming I'm kinda I don't know do it all the success and growth and I need help in dealing with that I turn to the next one and he was sort of a young kind of up-and-comer that they had included because they wanted to build into his life and I turned him

I said what's going on with you and he said man I already got what I need I said what do you mean he said these guys are my heroes I just found out they're screwed up Zion so I can go home now I said well tell us your story and he told us his story and after a little while one of the older wiser experienced pastors interrupts and he says you want some feedback and I'll never forget this that young pastor leaned forward and you know you see the physiology lean forward he opens his facial

muscles shrinks diagnose stuff like this and he says these words he says yeah man give me a gift see David said a righteous man will strike me and it will be a blessing and that's the description of the wise so they thank you so what do you do when you're leading a wise person what are the leadership strategies you talk to them talking helps somebody's listening so you coach them you give them feedback you resource them now these are the easy ones so I'm not going to spend a lot of time here but let me

give you the leadership kind of challenged with them with the wise person the challenge is this to make sure that they are a match for what you need you can have wise people that aren't gifted and they're not going to make it either in the things that you're wanting them to to do so they got to be a match Bill talked about that earlier they got to be in a place where if you haven't outgrown them okay and then you've got to give them good feedback in coaching and then the third one is you have

to keep them challenged appropriately so I'm not going to spend more time on the wise ones because they're the ones that are easy now let's get to the group we know and love the fool what's the description of the fool a fool basically maybe the smartest cookie at the table they may be the brightest and they may be the most gifted and oftentimes I'll tell you this they are and that's how they've gotten as far as they've gotten with this other character problem they have because they are so gifted and because of the results they

can get and their charisma and they really do produce a lot of times but here's the problem with the wise person when the light comes they adjust themselves to the light with the fool when the light shows up you know what they try to do they adjust the light it hurts our eyes they're allergic to it and they try to dim it and they try to adjust the truth see this person changes themselves they the fool will try to change the truth there's a number of ways to do that to excuse it minimize it well

it wasn't that big of a problem or it's not that big of a deal or no you're overestimating that or they shoot the messenger that would be you well if you would just give me more responsibility you ever heard that one if you would just resource me more if you if you if you and whenever you hear feedback going to somebody and the first reflexive move is external let that be a warning sign because they're squinting at that point and what they're doing I'll give you a list of them here they deny that it's reality

they minimize they external eyes it they shoot the messenger and see this smiley face here not what you get they're not happy to hear this and a lot of times they get angry and they'll go have the meeting after the meeting and find somebody and and kind of merge with them and a triangulation and now you're the problem and that's how splits begin to happen many many times it's how companies are divided teams are divided and sometimes churches as well so you've got this behavior are you guys recognizing some people here okay now if you

brought that person with you you might have one have a little chat right now are not yet I haven't give you their tools yet okay I'm Aaron was in a meeting with the CEO and one of its VPS and they had a big big big big big product launch and it didn't go well and part of it was because the advertising buy had not been done well at all and it was because the marketing guy had not really gotten it all done well timely and all that and so the CEO was given a review and

he instantly says well you know it's because the networks had had promised us this time and they had sold and the CEO says well you know dealing with the networks that's under your watch he said yeah but by the time and then he goes into you know the production group that was that delayed and they said now their CEO is going yeah but you're in charge of the and he kept saying this and saying this and saying this and so finally I interrupted I said to the CEO what are you feeling right now that's sort

of a straight thing to do right I try not to do that business settings often but I could see it his face and I thought it would leave a lead to something and it did and this is what it led to one of the most important feelings that you can have as a leader hopelessness I turned to the leader to the CEO I said what are you feeling right now he goes I don't know man I'm kind of hopeless I said exactly you know why because problems are not in the room it's very hard to

solve a problem that's not in the room because every time you talk to a person like this they do not own it and the reality is right there but they can't make themselves part of the problem and own it and take it in and when you get hopeless about that that's one of the best things that you can ever do as a leader because you know what a nice responsible leader does a nice responsible leaders has has a nice responsible leader has hope that a fool is gonna one day start listening of course you've had

this conversation 63 times but today's the day and you've talked about this problem you know over here if you talk about problems you talk about problem a and it goes away and then B and it goes away over here it's like a I can send you to a a after all this right and see that's the deal you've got to get hopeless you know the definition of insanity continuing do the same thing expecting different results so here's what the Bible says and here's what all research would validate with the wise person you talk to them

why talking helps confront rebuke correct a wise person and they will love you for it and they will thank you for it and they will get better so talk to them but then the Bible changes its tone or its advice and it says do not confront or correct a fool it gets even better it says lest you incur insults upon yourself that's the shoot the messenger do not confront a mocker lest they hate you and if you look through these verses it's incredible it describes reality like you've never seen it before and it basically says

here's your strategy stop talking stop it you know why they have stopped your vision they stopped the plan you're no longer in charge of your mission their allergy to reality has now gotten in charge and it's your job as the leader to take stewardship over this and stop the insanity so we stop talking and we have a different kind of a conversation and we called them in and you say you know what Joe you know we've talked about a and a and a a a turn about problems and all these issues you know what I

don't want to talk about problems anymore I'm kind of done talking about promise I want to talk about a new problem I want to talk about the problem they're talking about problems with you doesn't help I want to have that conversation and you begin to get out of the weeds and you take it up to the pattern that I don't know how to give you feedback in a way that that it changes anything I'm hopeless so let me tell you what I do when I'm hopeless I've got I've got to protect our vision I've got

to protect the next quarterly as a result quarterly results I've got to protect the culture of this team or whatever the problem is and we're gonna stop talking about the issues and we're gonna talk about this issue that talking doesn't help and we're gonna do something different I'm gonna have some limits here because I can't I'm gonna limit my exposure to this problem and if that means that I can't have you be in charge of this project I need to limit my exposure because I cannot lose another product launch or I cannot lose another ministry

launch or I cannot continue to have meetings with people that you've gone in and blown up at and they come crying into my office I'm gonna limit my exposure to that what I want from you is I want to know how I can talk to you where what I talk about makes a difference can you please tell me how to do that I really want to do it and this is where you get soft and you get loving because it may be that they're foolish for shame reasons or fear reasons that they give excuses and

this that and the other because I own something makes them so bad and if you can get to you know why is it hard for you what do you feel when I when I correct you and some of them will get honest and say I just feel so bad I was in a meeting not too long ago and saw a high-level leader actually start to tear up he said I don't know I just feel like I've let everybody down and that's when the team rallied around him and they connected for the first time and you

can hear it and so if you ask them what is it about this that's so hard and if they say well because you and it's true then fine I want to do it like that anymore how do you want it people want feedback in different ways let me send flowers when I give it to you what do you need let's find a way that it works but then you go to a second question okay I'm gonna do that job but what I want to know this what will we do if I do it and then

it doesn't happen I want to plan so we know if we have this conversation again and I do what you want and nothing changes what are we gonna do then and there you get specific about what the consequences are gonna be now they might say well can you show me that I'm doing it again and see now you got a listener but if they don't you got to have consequences it may mean that they get moved out of the position or it may be in some cases you give them a chance to go be successful

somewhere else there are extreme consequences there are minor consequences but here is the principle fools do not change with truth coming to them that they can get rid of fools change when truth comes to them that they must camp out in and feel and when the pain of not changing becomes greater than the pain of changing you know what I love about fools besides being a recovering fool there's great hope for fools Jesus died for fools all of us are foolish to some degree and if we can lead them right instead of thinking they're listening

and realizing they're not listening and lead them with consequences in structure then fools can change and you can redeem a career in a position and a giftedness if you do what leadership requires but that takes guts and sometimes these are the hardest cause ever made so what have we seen you got the strategy changing and the leadership change here or the leadership challenge here I said earlier it was to match remember to match the giftedness and then to give the good feedback and then challenge them well with the fool the leadership challenge is you've got

to limit your exposure you've got to make it clear about the consequences you've got to give them a choice and then you've got to follow through and I say it like this I usually have have leaders say to these people you know what what I need in that chair that you sit in in that position I need somebody that can hear what we need and can hear reality and that's what I'm gonna have in that position I hope that's you I want you to be in that chair but that's what that chair is gonna require

and you get to make the choice it's what you're gonna do and then lastly I wish I didn't have to do this talk about this category once been a lot of time on it but if the strategy here is to resource people because wise people you know I've told you about them evil people need a different strategy you know why because they have destruction in their hearts they want to inflict pain and I've seen this and you've got to believe it if you're an optimistic loving person it's so hard to get you to believe that

there Trulli are bad people in the world and sometimes when you try to give them truth and I've seen it in board meetings I've seen it at high levels of leadership I have seen people stand up in a boardroom and turn and point their finger and say I will bring this place down destruction is in their heart and that's why the Bible says where Paul writes to pastors reject reject a divisive person after a second warning have nothing to do with them and there are people and there are people in churches sometimes that you can't

talk to because they're evil you can't fix them by giving them feedback so we have a different strategy and over here it's lawyers guns and money lawyers guns and money we go into protection mode and you say I'll only talk to you through my attorney and you get ready because they're going to sue you and you give funds to that and sometimes you have to call the police and I've seen it happen that's just a little piece of advice for you leaders who are so loving that you cannot believe that anybody would be like that

they very well could be sitting at one of your pews and the Bible promises that they are so I'll leave you with this God has called you to lead people and sometimes it's not about the plan there could be five good plans it's about getting the people to be able to work the plan and that's what leadership often comes down to and in your army out there you're gonna have Wise Ones fools and evil ones take the leadership challenge to not let somebody's character problem stop your mission that God has called you to god bless

you you