#ABtalks with Robert Greene | Chapter 239 | مع روبرت غرين

What does seduction mean to you? Cuz you wrote a book about I hope my mom wasn't hearing this. You've worked more than 50 jobs. >> I was like taking people and letting the law find them. I just felt really ugly about myself and that's [music] why I wrote the 48 laws of power. >> You said never outshine the master. Why? >> I outshone the master and got fired twice. You also said crush your enemy Totally. I'm sorry to tell you it is how the world operates. Don't be so naive. Did you end up writing [music]

the book that a young Robert needed? Well, you [music] still have this hunger, Robert. So why why do you do all of this? You know, I never felt like I was respected [music] or loved enough. It was my ambition that actually drove me to feeling depressed and suicidal. >> Hi everyone, I'm with Mr. Robert Green. Um, we had one of his most boring Interviews. [laughter] Uh, I personally loved it and I hope it was a nice balance between your personal life and the knowledge that you have. I hope we danced well. >> We we danced

very well. We'd be we would be a good partner, good team. I wasn't bored at all. Okay. I just sometimes hearing the sound of my own voice gets a little bit annoying, you know, but I had a great time. Your questions were really interesting. You know, I've done Probably thousands of podcasts, maybe close to >> always the same questions and I go, "Oh." [sighs] But you ask questions I've never been asked before. That that is that is a real compliment. And that's thanks to also to the girls sitting there or standing there. Farah. >> Oh,

really? >> Yeah. We work together to make good questions. >> I did not know that. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. >> You did a great job. >> Thank you. >> So, for all all of you who are tuning in, uh always subscribe, support, and our job is to get you the right guests and the right minds. And if you uh already follow Robert Green, unfollow and follow again just so he knows that you follow him like that. but support uh push his content, push his knowledge. Read these books and um benefit your

loved ones. There's a lot of knowledge there and I'm sure Robert would appreciate your love. Uh like what was that cool word that you No, I don't want to spoil it. Watch watch watch the interview. It's that word that I asked you that would be on the tombstone, but I want to keep it. No, no, don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say it. [laughter] Okay. Lovely. That looks easy. [music] >> [music] [music] [screaming] >> Hi, Robert. >> Hello. Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for being here with us and giving us uh

your time. >> You're very welcome. >> Um I've read your books, a few of them. a while back. Um, and then I noticed that on social media now you become very Popular with certain clips here and there and it's inspiring a lot of people which is quite nice to see. >> Mh. >> But in my show I always try to blend more the human behind the title. So I want to get to know you and of course I still want to get to know your knowledge. That helps everybody. So I'll dance between both. >> Okay.

I don't know if you'll like what you get to know about me but go ahead. >> We'll try. >> Okay. Um, my first question is a simple uh question I always like to start with, which is, "Robert, how are you really doing?" >> I'm fine. I'm I'm I'm very kind of worn out. I'm working on my new book, which will be finished hopefully by the end of the year or beginning of next year. >> And um when I'm getting near the end of a chapter, which I am now, >> I'm just working so hard and

I just my Whole I just feel so drained. M >> and last night I was working very late and then I got up early this morning and I'm working cuz I have a deadline and so normally I'm I'm full of energy. I'm a little bit drained right now because of I I really really want to finish this book. I've been working on it for six years now. >> Oh, I know. >> What is the topic? The topic is what I call the sublime. H So, um something I've been wanting to work on since I think

around 2005. Uh and then I got derailed by the 50 Cent project and then Mastery and then and then um I had my stroke >> which I nearly died. I came this close to dying. It's actually right near here, two blocks from here where I had my stroke. So, I live in this neighborhood and the sublime is kind of about things that take you out of your normal life and expose you to something strange and Wonderful beyond the usual limits that we live in. And a near-death experience, which is what I had, is kind of

the ultimate sublime experience. You know, you're coming close to the border between life and death. >> You're experiencing sensations that most people never get to experience. you know, I was unconscious, but I was having strange visions. And um when I was on the ambulance on the way home from the hospital after I'd been there For a week, I'm thinking, okay, somebody was sending me a signal that this is now the time to write the sublime book because this was sort of the ultimate kind of sublime experience. So that's the I could talk to you more

about what the book is about, but that's >> that's the general theme. And I'm on the 11th chapter now and the 12 chapters >> and the 12th chapter is about our relationship to mortality and death. So I'm getting very near to that edge. >> Interesting. >> Okay, back to you. Um, who are you when no one's around? Well, um I'm somebody who's like always thinking, >> so I live in my head a lot and um so I'm kind of always like thinking of ideas and thinking about life and thinking about people and thinking about the

world and devising all sorts of new ideas and strategies. So I'm in my head a lot. Um, but I also realize that I'm a Physical being. So to get out of my head, I exercise. I do things. I meditate every morning. But I lead a very very very boring life. If you saw what my life was like, you might you go, "My god, that's how how do you how do you put up with that? I just wake up in the morning. I meditate. I interact with my cats and my wife. Have breakfast. and then it's

into work, you know, and then it's lunch and then it's into work and then at night maybe we watch a movie. I Don't really go out. I don't do very much. It's just work because I love my work. So that's >> unfortunately who I am. I live a very plain and modest and kind of boring life. >> But spiritually and intellectually it's very rich. >> Yeah. I feel, you know, the word boring, Robert, is um undervalued and underrated. >> Mhm. >> Because today we've reached the opposite of boring. >> Oh wow. >> You're always distracted,

entertained with your phones, with your social media. And I I tell my kids and I'm like, you need to be bored because when you're bored, you become creative. >> No creativity without boredom. >> That is exactly what I've been writing about this morning. >> Really? Um, I was just writing about Boredom and boredom is a signal, it used to be a signal that you need to become creative, that you need to use your mind to to find ways to amuse yourself. So, when you're a child >> like when I was and you're bored, you have

to create invent a game. You have to find ways to entertain yourself. >> So, you develop an imagination. You develop creativity. But if you're fed everything, if everything is given to you with your phone, with your toys and Things, you never develop your imagination, you never develop anything inside of you in order to relieve that boredom, right? You don't know how to be patient. You don't know how to slow down. >> And so I agree with you completely that the ability to feel bored is actually a strength. It's actually very strong. You know, it reveals

something good about you. And so >> when I'm bored, what do I do? I I get a Book and I start thinking and I read or I or I you know I do something >> to create kind of excitement within myself not somebody giving it to me. >> So I when I say that my life is boring I don't mean to to say I I'm complaining because I'm very happy with a boring life. >> That's a nice title for a book. I'm very happy with my boring life. I think is very underrated especially in this

kind of world you know h um if we Have actually on the idea of uh there was something that crossed my mind and not crossed away and ran away from me if it comes back. >> It happens to me all the time. >> Yeah. Until >> you get older and that happens to you like every day. >> Um your childhood in three words. Um it was uh let's see three words. Can you give me three words? >> Um alone and uh and full of play. Well playful. >> So you want me to explain? >> No.

One more. Playful alone and alone. playful and uh and um rich >> h which one would you like to elaborate on? >> Well, alone first. Um I had parents who Were who who were good parents. I'm not criticizing them, but I was left alone, you know, and so that's where I developed my creative energy, if I have any, in my imagination. I mean, they did they allowed things that I don't think any parent now would ever allow their children. So, I'm 11 years old and I ride my bicycle. We lived in the west side of

Los Angeles. I rode my bicycle all the way into Santa Monica by myself going to shops and doing all sorts of Things when I'm 11, you know, and and you know, I had complete freedom. My friends and I, we would climb up into the hills. We lived in the in these hilly area and we do all sorts of crazy things. So, they left me alone. And sometimes you could say that you're being neglected. But I I think it was the best thing that could ever happen to me because it made me develop myself and it

gave me space to kind of create my own identity. >> If parents are too in your face, >> you're never really able to sort of create who you are as separate from them. So they're kind of, you know, I I have this philosophy which is called amorati. >> In Latin it means love of fate. M >> it's the belief that everything that happens is for the best. Now you might say, well that's sort of ridiculous, but no, it's a way of thinking. So being neglected, you could say, "Oh, that's Terrible. You're so alone. You're not

getting the love." But on the other hand, you're getting to learn to love yourself. You're getting to learn to develop yourself. So even the stroke that nearly killed me is a blessing, is a beautiful thing. It's a positive thing. if that's how you look at life. So my childhood was full of things like that that normally you might say that's that's kind of negative but actually it was very it was very wonderful thing. I Had a very wonderful childhood. >> I I I miss it very deeply. Yeah. Um because you know I was always inventing

games and um and it just you know it just I felt so alive and you know connected to nature because we lived in these this beautiful part of town and stuff and um I have a chapter in my new book about childhood >> and h and how um sublime your childhood mind was and the need to kind of go back To your spirit and your mind and who you were when you're five, six, eight years old and recapture that. >> Because we think of children as being these kind of silly little pieces of nature that

don't have any really intelligence yet, but actually children are more connected to life than we are when we get older. They have more kind of philosophy than we have as we get older. You know, >> Socrates once said that dogs are the Most philosophical creature on the planet. But I believe children are in some ways. So I'm very connected to my childhood experiences and I think about them a lot and they're they're very important to me to hold on to. I remembered what I wanted to ask you. >> Maybe maybe you have some insight on

this. >> Okay. >> You know when we were young, Robert, we we you could give me like just these two Chess pawns and I could literally stay playing and imagining. >> Yeah. I wonder why I remember not exactly the moment but the kind of phase when I couldn't anymore play with two toys like a GI Joe cuz I when I at certain ages I could you just give me two GI Joes I'm good >> I kind of remember when I couldn't anymore >> you had a GI Joe >> yeah I did >> so did I

>> so when you couldn't do what >> couldn't you know when you couldn't imagine the same power >> and so I wonder what happens in our psyche that we lose that and why do we lose this huge vast imagination well you know we we we get we accumulate knowledge and ideas and we go and we get educated and we think that that's kind of silly and childish and unimportant Who wants to play anymore that's not what an adults do but creative people and I don't just mean like artists. I also mean like inventors and even

people in the sciences or entrepreneurs who m maintain that closeness to their childhood. They keep that spirit and they keep playing with their G.I. Joe's but on a different level. >> Right? So if you're an artist, if you write fiction or you're a film director, you're not literally with your G.I. Joe And imagining games, but you're putting it onto film. You're putting it in a book >> and it's a beautiful thing. But yeah, I you know I think like you enter college, university and you start thinking of yourself as being more and more important and

big >> and the kind of small things like just playing with simple stuff >> you you think you've grown out of it but you need to have you need to go back to It. I I so agree and I I used to tell some students in the universities and lectures that something so similar to what you said that in if you want to stay creative in your field, you have to be as curious or close to as curious as you were when you were were kids. Because you watch a child Robert, they they touch the

floor and they taste it and they're like, "No." Then they open drawers. They have no shame or fear That, oh, I'm being judged. >> Yeah. >> They want to dance. They literally start to bounce as if nobody's there. They want to try something. They want to eat something. They're so pure and open. >> Yeah. >> And then, like you said, the judgment and society and knowledge makes you think, "No, no, like you're not supposed to do that." And then suddenly you're boxed into like a certain behavior. And it's sad. >> It it is sad. But

like um so the reason children are like that is they're seeing the world for the first time. They're everything is new. They're looking at the sky and it wow I've never really seen anything like that. You know, I can remember I was five years old and my parents we were on a trip >> and we're driving into the city of San Francisco, which is a beautiful probably the most Beautiful city in America and I see all the lights across and the Golden Gate Bridge and all the beautiful and the water and everything. And I was

like, my god, this is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. I've never forgotten that memory. But now if I drive there, I don't see any of that. It's the first time. And so I have the special bicycle that I ride up here in these in the hills around here because obviously with my leg I can't really ride a normal Bicycle. >> And I'm going as I'm riding and I'm going what if I were looking at all of these things for the first time. I keep I ride on this several, you know, hundreds of times.

But now imagine, Robert, that you're seeing these particular trees, these particular coyotes that are kind of crawling past you or running past you. Imagine it's the first time that you're seeing that >> and how wonderful that is. >> It's never going to be the same as when you were a child. But you can recapture [clears throat] some of that through how you think and the book that I'm writing is all just about recapturing that kind of spirit. And I have a lot of exercises in there for how you can do that kind of thing. >>

That's nice. Robert, how were you as a teenager? >> I had hair down to here. >> Okay. >> I was a hippie. >> Uhhuh. I dressed like a hippie. I wore secondhand clothes. My parents hated it. I was into, you know, rock and uh drugs. I took drugs. >> And but I also was very interested in classical music and literature, but I was a rebel. >> I was I was really not, you know, my my parents I hope my mom isn't going to be watching this, but my Mom's still alive. My parents were very kind

of bourgeoa. I don't mean to judge that because there's something good about very middle class, but I was kind of not wanting that world. So, I wanted something else and I kind of went far in the other direction, >> you know, and so >> I was very rebellious >> and very much wanting to be myself and find my own way in life. >> So, they wanted me to like go to law School or become a doctor. You know, >> my parents are Jewish. which was a very Jewish kind of thing. I had wanted not nothing

to do with that. I was into literature. I was going to be an English major. I ended up studying classics, ancient Greek and Latin. The least practical subject you could ever study in university. There is nothing more impractical than ancient languages, which is the last thing that they wanted me to do with my education. >> So, I was very rebellious. I wanted to go my own way. uh earlier like 10 minutes ago you said something he said um everything what is the word amorati >> amorati that it's also Islamic in Islam we have this idea

that you know whatever is happening is for the best as god's will or >> sure of course >> and it's it's so true when you said it's A mindset because you you could be playing with the same marbles or variables and say I'm a victim >> or you make it work for for you not against you. So that's the main mindset is somebody gets who gets into uh unfortunately gets raped could protect a thousand women maybe after or somebody can really unfortunately follow I mean fall in this very dark place >> and I'm not judging

I'm saying certain people I think Maya Angelou mentioned it Oprah Winfrey mentioned it and they made one of these traumatic experiences and these are extreme examples work for them. >> Yeah. >> Rather than against them. >> Yeah. >> So, it is a mindset. >> It is. It's exactly what I'm writing about right now. It's this chapter that I'm writing about. I call it the dynamical sublime. And what I mean is Life involves resistance. It involves pressure. You're constant. You can't get anything that you want in life. There are things that are always causing you, stopping

you, impeding your progress. It could be other people. It could be forces going on in the world. It can be a pandemic. It can be your own mortality. So there these resistant factors in life. And you can either crawl inside yourself and go into a shell and complain and whine and feel Like a victim and say, "Oh, life is so much against me." Or you can embrace that and you can use the pressure and resistance to make to develop yourself inwardly. So I talk in this in this chapter about people like Nelson Mandela who's thrown

into a prison in South Africa, some of the worst conditions you can imagine, right? And he uses that experience, it took him years of a lot of work, but he used that experience to kind of find a way to not let it affect Him and not let him dominate him and control him. And he developed kind of an inner freedom. And he developed out of that experience this message of love and forgiveness. he could forgive even his oppressors, right? So instead of using that moment to feel all defensive and feeling like you're a victim, that

the world is against you, to go out into the world, to go outward instead of inward and project something positive. >> And that's what pressure and that's what Pain and suffering should be like. I I say in this chapter, it's going to be hard for me to understand because I have to I it's an elaborate idea, but pain and suffering are actually sacred. They're actually a blessing in disguise >> because they take you out of your normal day-to-day routines and they show you what life is really like. Life life is harsh. It's difficult. There's death

is waiting you. But you're living in this kind of floating world where you're Completely, you know, outside of that. you think everything's just fine, but when you're suffering, you're you're directly confronting the reality of life, right? The fact that all animals, all living things have to go through this. It kind of connects you to the suffering of all creatures and it's a sacred experience because it's lifting you out of your life and it's giving you the possibility to transform yourself >> psychologically, intellectually >> and spiritually. >> Does that make any sense to you? makes a

lot of sense. He reminded me of a country that I always get wrong, so I'm not going to mention the country, but it's somewhere in Asia and it's they they claim that they're one of the happiest people because they get reminded of death around five times a day. >> Uh-huh. >> And people might think that's weird or Eerie, but I understand it's similar to what you said. Reminding oneself of death makes you enjoy and savor moments and appreciate things way more. Like you said, you walk, you're on your bike and you see a tree you've

always seen. But when you know that it's finite time on earth, >> you're like, you know, I really love this tree. >> So makes and that's I understand why they might be the happiest. >> I I I actually have a tree that I literally do that with. >> Okay. Every time I take my ride, I stop and I just watch that tree and I watch the the light playing off of it and I I'm actually literally in love with that tree. Mhm. >> But um yeah, I mean after I had my stroke and as I

said, I was driving my car right near here when I had it and my wife forced me to get off the road and cuz I was about to get Into some horrible accident and she called the ambulance and I went into a coma. If it had been one minute later, I'd either be brain dead or I'd be completely dead. Right? So, I emerge from that and I come home and it's it's gotten a little bit less sharp than it was originally, but now I look out the window and I see things and I go, you

know, I might not be seeing this right now. And it just has a different intensity to it when you know That your time is short. When you know that everything is impermanent, >> makes you appreciate the people around you. Makes you appreciate the life that you have. So you know I was you know speaking to my therapist about this point and I think there is um a split on how a person can benefit from such circumstances. I had I don't want to call it a near-death experience but recently we had a a near huge accident

experience where my car Caught fire but it was minutes before I got into it like it complet so a lot of people and then I was talking to my therapist about it and he said have you like sat down and realized how fortunate because you were supposed to be in that car if I tell you how things panned out I was fortunate that I was in a shoot like this it just got delayed So it delayed me from getting >> You mean your car just exploded? >> Not not like the movies, but the it Literally

caught fire while it was parked. My my driver was waiting for me. So he literally stepped out to get a coffee or something to eat >> and it just went to smoke and then bof like it was on fire. >> Not exploded cuz cars that's quite a myth. It usually doesn't, but it caught fire. That is very strong. So now, of course, if you're in the car, you can get get locked in if it's an electric uh button car and then you're screwed. Or If you're driving on the highway and it catches fire, you could

get in a very bad accident. >> Sure. >> So, um me and the doctor, we were talking and he said, "Anless have you comprehended the situation?" I'm like, "Yeah, but you know, I'm keep it seems like you're keeping busy." I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "I think I would recommend that you really take a moment. It could be two seconds just to be really grateful >> that you weren't in this car. So why am I saying this? What you went through, you could get overly addicted to writing books or doing seminars and talks and distract

yourself from really truly looking at this tree. >> Mhm. >> Or you can say, you know what, Robert, appreciate this life cuz you just were close. >> Mhm. >> And you got a second chance. >> Mhm. >> You see two different people. >> Yeah. >> How they respond. So, well, most people um I'm reading a lot now about near-death experiences um because it's quite a phenomenon since the 60s and really people never even talked about it until the 1960s >> and there are tons of books about it and It's really like what I'm going to

be doing talking about in the last chapter. >> But most people who have near-death experiences kind of react the way I did, >> right? Sometimes it can be a very hellish experience, but the sensation you're almost outside of your own body, right? And when when oxygen is not going to your brain and strange things start happening. You see, this is something that I'm going to be writing about. We don't realize it, but the human brain Creates the world that we perceive, >> right? Literally, >> you don't you think you're seeing the world as it is,

but that's not true. It's the brain creating it. It creates colors. It takes images that are all sharp and I mean all hazy and it creates sharpness. It creates objects. It creates borders around things. That's not how things actually are. An eagle or a dog or a cat, they don't see the same world that you see. It's something that Our brains create. Our brains create a world for us. And when your brain breaks down as in a near-death experience and oxygen is cut off from reaching the brain, suddenly you're actually experiencing the world as it

as it is, >> not as the brain filters it. >> And it's an ecstatic experience. It's complete ecstasy because you realize that the we see like an a subject separated from an object. Like I'm Different from you. I have my own world, you have your world. But when things break down, you see that that's actually an illusion that everything is really one. >> Now, it's that's a cliche and I'm just putting words to it because it's a feeling. It's not it's not things that go into words. >> But when you come close to death, it

is an ecstatic experience. >> And I'm reading a book right now called Near-Death Experiences in the Ancient World. >> It talks about ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, India. And it's the idea is all of our concepts of heaven and hell and the afterlife really came from people who had near-death experiences. Now, it sounds a little bit ridiculous, and he argues it very well, >> but there's a definite connection between people's concept of an afterlife or what happens to us after we're dead To people who have near-death experiences. >> And mostly, it's a very positive experience. H >>

I mean >> you can take and there movies have been made about people who are miserable who are the worst sons of who are unhappy discontented who hate everything. They have a near-death experience and it completely alters Them. >> That's so true. Sometimes that jolt can switch something. Um, who have been your best teachers? Well, um, probably one of the biggest influences on my in my life is my sister. >> I'm very close to my sister. I love her very much. She and I, she's four years older than me. She's almost raised me in some

ways. And we, she had a very big impact on me. And um it was with her that we invented all these games and had all this fun and we kind of created a separate world from my parents. So she played a very important role in my life. And um but then uh I had a teacher when I was in high school, man named Russell Smith. I went to Palisades High School here in Los Angeles. And uh he was an English teacher >> and I was maybe 15 years old, something like that, with my long hair.

And I thought I was the greatest writer in the world. I thought I was such hot you know. And I wrote this essay that he I forget what it was about. And I thought it was really, really good. I was going to get an A on it. And ended up getting a C. And there were all these red pencil marks over it. And the red pencil marks meant that you didn't do a very good job. Right? just seeing all That red made me go, "Oh, god damn." And he basically explained to me, he said, "Robert,

writing is a form of communication. It's not about you expressing yourself. It's about communicating to other people. >> If you're just inside your own world, you're just writing things that excite you, it doesn't have any meaning. It's not good writing. It's egotistical. You're writing for other people. You're communicating an idea to others. So you Have to like focus on that and not about how great you are and how you know just playing word games and such. >> And it changed forever the way I write. >> To this day when I write a book I'm not

thinking about my clever ideas and and and word games. I'm going deeply into the reader and how they're going to experience this and how this could maybe change their way of looking at the world. So, just that one little thing he taught Me when I was 15 years old has forever changed the course of my life and I I'll never forget it. >> I love that. Um, you've worked I read more than 50 jobs. >> Yeah. >> Which one was the best one? >> Well, I have to say I was 21 years old. I was

and I graduated college and I went to Paris. I was traveling all around Europe for like over a year, but I ended up in Paris And I got a job in a hotel, the hotel Santrez and um it's where all it's in this beautiful Latin Quarter. I was the receptionist at the hotel and it's where all the models stayed, the fashion models stayed. You know, I'm 21 years old and the most beautiful women in the world are passing through every day. They're staying at the hotel. They're visiting the hotel. It was like I was like

in a candy store or something. It Was it was it was it was wonderful. I'm sure, >> you know, and I was in Paris and I was learning the language and I was interacting with all these great people and I was young. That was probably the most exciting job I ever had. >> That is a good job. And what was the worst one? I knew you were going to ask. [laughter] >> Uh, I was here in LA. I was maybe 30 years old or so. I just moved back here >> and I got a job

in Pasadena, I believe, at a detective agency. [clears throat] >> And I was what you call a skip tracer. And a skip tracer is, let's say, somebody in Wisconsin jumped bail. M >> they they didn't pay, you know, they they had bail money and then they just left >> and they need to be found. >> The law needs to find them, right? >> So my job was using just the phone and never going out of the office, calling people, pretending to be somebody that I wasn't and finding out where they were, right? >> And I

was actually very good at it. Hm. So, you call like the mother, you go, you know, yeah, I'm I'm a buddy with Frank. We went to high school together. We were buddies. And you do some research and you know the places you can name places that he went to. >> You could pretend like you were actually a friend. And you say, "I'm trying to find out where he is." And she goes, and the mother will go, "Oh, I don't really know, but maybe this." Anyway, you go through this chain and you eventually find him. It

was the most depressing job I've ever had in my life. I came home every day and I almost wanted to cry. I was like taking people and letting the law find them and I was lying and I was good at it and I just felt really ugly About myself. I felt like this is not who I want to be. I had other jobs in Hollywood that were also very soul sucking jobs that I hated as well. I'd say 90% of my jobs were awful. And that's why I wrote the 48 laws of power. >> So

to pick which is the most awful is very difficult. >> I can easily pick the best one, but the most awful there's too much to choose from. And why do you do what you do? You know, You've done a lot and you're successful in how the world sees success. Um um you're not as young as the 21-year-old in Paris. >> So you can you can say you know what I want to chill and I want to sit in my garden but you still have this hunger Robert and the way even you're talking and you're working

hard on this book and >> you're putting part of your soul still still with an underline. So why why do you do all of this? >> It's a good question. Um, probably the answer isn't all positive. >> You know, sometimes what motivates you are kind of the demons that are inside of you and you don't realize that. You think they're angels, but they're actually demons. So, part of my problem was growing up was I never felt good about myself. I never felt like I was doing enough. I never felt like I was respected or loved

enough. So you take that with you through your whole life. You never leave that behind. And it makes you always want to do more and more and more to please people, to get attention, to get that validation and that love that you never had. So part of my compulsion to continually work has a slight negative origin. I I definitely believe. But on the other hand, my mind is so active that if I don't have something to put it onto, I get Depressed and I start chewing on myself, consuming myself. So I was in that ambulance

from the hospital going home. You know, I' had been a week in the in the home in in the hospital and I'm in the back seat there and my mind is going like this like this. I like five ideas for books were coming to me seven days after my stroke and I I just realized if I don't keep working, I'm going to die inside. My body has been wrecked. You know, you saw how I walk the left side of my body, but my mind is still active. If I don't write another book and I just

live with my body the way it is, I'd probably be dead by now. I probably would have committed suicide. I need a purpose. I need a reason. Writing a book is a is that purpose. Now, I can tell you this that once this book is finished, I'm not going to write another book like it. >> It was too draining. It took too long. I'm going to write something simpler and easier. This took six years. I'm going to write a book that'll take one year or two years. I can't >> I can't physically do it anymore.

>> You know, part of the problem is I can't type. So, how do you write a book when you can't type? I have to handwrite everything, right? And then I have to dictate it into the computer and then I have to edit it with one hand. It's very Laborious. It's very difficult. It's very draining. Normally, I take a walk to clear my mind. I can't take a walk. I can't go for a swim. I'm trapped. So, the process is very draining. And so, I think I need a break. I think I need I can't write

another book like that. I'm going to write a book about cats or about something very simple or easy. >> Boredom. We said, >> huh? >> We said boredom. >> I'll write a book about boredom. >> Yeah. >> Um, what is something that you do that you know is different than anyone else? How they do it? Like what is something that you do that you know is different? Well, I don't know if other I'm the only one who does this, but it might be slightly um OCD. You know what I mean by that? Okay. But like

I Make a ritual out of everything, [clears throat] >> right? So, I love rituals, >> so I have [laughter] this is going to sound ridiculous. I'm confessing terrible things here. So, I have like these shirts that I wear, right? And there's like 15 of them in the summer. >> I have they rotate exactly in a circle. So I know like this day, you know, like it changes each day. So I never wear the Same shirt. >> I do the same thing with my shampoo, with my toothpaste, with all with the my breakfast. Everything is kind

of rotated in these different rituals. >> And then some days I wake up and I go, "Wow, it's the day for this. How interesting." M >> I don't know what that says about me, but I don't know if many other people quite have that kind of level >> of obsessivecompulsive disorder. So, I'm Confessing of something a little bit naughty about myself. >> Thank you. It's nice to get some exclusive bits about you. [laughter] It's also it's interesting how you know even athletes sometimes they'll tie their shoe before a game in a certain way. >> Yeah.

>> Like it's something to do with our psychology. Maybe it's comforting. >> Yeah. >> That you don't have to think about something or you you feel this is my favorite socks or some people wear this favorite boxers because they won so many games in them. >> Yeah. >> It's interesting how you know we we attach oursel to these little rituals even though maybe sometimes deep deep down you know it's just like a thing but it makes you feel better. Well, also, uh, when you have a little bit of this OCD or whatever you might want

to call it, having too many choices is very paralyzing. >> So, knowing that this is the day I have to wear this, this is the day that I use this shampoo. I don't have to decide. I don't have to think about it. >> So, it gives life this kind of ease to it. >> It's not my decision. >> It's just the ritual. It's deciding what I do. Um, I read that you mentioned that you went through depression. >> Yeah. >> You had suicidal thoughts >> and you were yet ambitious. So, I don't know if they

all came at the same phase, but that's how I read it. And I'm like, how interesting. Like there is there's depression, there's suicidal thoughts, and there's ambition. Like, were they all coinciding and coexisting at the same time? >> Well, a lot of uh suicidal people were ambitious. M >> in fact because they were ambitious and they had no success they felt very suicidal. They had very low self-esteem. So that's not all people who who commit suicide but a very a lot of very famous writers and artists have ended up committing suicide because they never felt

like they were accomplishing what they wanted to. So, um, You know, I've always been very ambitious. I'm a very competitive person. I don't like losing even in games and such, right? So, um, so I'm in my 30s and I know that there's something inside of me that could be interesting for the world to express. I know it deep inside. this I've had these weird experiences, I have these weird thoughts >> that could amount to something interesting, >> but I haven't been able to figure out how to do it. >> I try journalism. I try writing

plays. I try writing novels. I try writing screenplays. >> It doesn't click. It's not who I am. It's not working. >> But I know I can do something great. And that sense of disappointment in yourself, of frustration, of knowing that you have potential but you can't realize it was what made me feel deep Down very very depressed and very much like if I never find this, what is life worth? What is it? I my work and creating something is so important to me that if I can't do it, I don't want to live. And so

it was my ambition that actually drove me to feeling depressed and suicidal. >> And how you got out of it, I could assume is when you found the click or it's not as simple. >> Well, um, you know, uh, I' I've been With the same woman for many years. My wife, I love her very deeply. She's a filmmaker. She's >> in Czechoslovakia right now filming making a film. She's been with me. She She lived through all the years of my depression >> and and she knows about it and she knows that she can say the

moments where I went up and down and and sunk very deeply. And so it wasn't like I was always every morning suicidal. I was I Was young. I was doing things that I liked. I was excited. But it just kept sinking and sinking and sinking. And then you'd get up and then you'd sink again. And so, how do I get out of this? And then I I I I wrote, it was like 94 or so, I wrote some plays >> that we put on together here in Los Angeles. And that felt good. I felt like

expressing myself. They were very weird plays that nobody understood, >> but it felt good. >> That kind of lifted me a little bit. And then a year later, [snorts] I'm in Italy. an old friend from Berkeley where I went to college. He's he's Dutch and he's in Italy and he's like helping to develop a new univer a new media school started by Beneton and he wanted me to come over to help write the book that would launch this School. An absolutely ridiculous, >> you know, scheme like who writes a book to start a school, >>

right? already it was seemed really dubious, but Italy, I mean, who's going to turn down a chance to go to Italy? So, naturally said, "Sure." Yeah. And I go there and it's a total fiasco. It's a total scam. It's just a place where people can eat good pasta and have espresso and argue and argue and argue, but nothing Ever happens, right? So, on the one hand, it's fun. I'm eating good food. People are I'm not in LA anymore. It's exciting, right? But on the other hand, it's kind of depressing because nothing is happening. It's just

so political. It's so machavelian. And there's this other man there named Yost Alfers, a Dutchman who was a friend of my friend. And he and I are both disenchanted. He's this older man. He's he's brilliant. He's a brilliant Designer of books. And one day we're walking in Venice, Italy along the caves of Brazil in front of the patio San Marco, one of the most beautiful spots in the whole world. And he asked me out of the blue, Robert, do you have any idea for books? And suddenly that click that you mentioned clicks. and all of

my agony, all of my depression, all of my frustration, it just suddenly came out of me almost like I was vomiting. And I told him this story about power, how everybody in the world wants power, but nobody wants to talk about it. This whole school that we're in, everybody's trying to act like it's so liberal, but it's all about power. And I tell him a story about Louis the 14th and his finance minister and how he threw the finance minister in prison for corruption. But in fact it was because he outshone the master law number

one. And that shows you how people's egos rule the world. And he he goes, "Oh my god, that's fantastic, Robert. That's a book." and he said he would pay me to write while I I first I had to go home and write a treat and then if he sells the book he'll pay me to write it. >> Everything changed because I realized that all of my negative experiences that I had accumulated over 38 years can now serve as grist for the mill can now Become the 48 laws of power. I don't know if you can

understand that but all my misery had a purpose. had a purpose for writing the book that would reveal to the world the power games that people played, the power games that I had witnessed, the power games that I had been a victim of for so many years. And so it just turned around in one moment. It was it was the, you know, the greatest thing that ever happened to me. I wouldn't be Here talking to you if I didn't have that opportunity. Can I edit the sentence that you just said? You said it all happened

in one moment. It happened for from listening to it happened a million moments before that. Not in one. You went through so many moments, but it looks in the if you really zoom out, it looks like that moment, >> but there's a whole Thousands and millions of decisions and experiences you made for that moment to happen in Italy. >> Yeah. I mean I I what I often tell people is if that had happened to me when I was 25 >> and I had the same thing and he asked me for a book wouldn't have happened.

It wouldn't have mattered. Nothing would have ever come of it. >> I was ready. It was my moment. >> I had I had been so beaten down that I Was ready to do it and I was so motivated. You know we say get rich or die trying. This was my get rich or die trying. I was either gonna make this book work or that was the end of me. >> So the motivation was was very deep. But yeah, it was an accumulation of thousands of moments that that went into it. >> I read also something

about observations of masks. When was the first time you realized, Robert, that people wear Masks? >> Probably when I was about three or four years old. >> Oh, wow. [laughter] >> I can't remember. >> Like really young. Yeah. I mean, I don't know for sure, but look, >> parents, >> you know, so I'm growing up basically in the 1960s, well before you were even born, I imagine. >> Okay. >> 81. >> 81. Okay. There you're a kid. Um, so I'm growing up in the 1960s, right? A different era. >> And parents then come from a

different generation. They come from the the depression era and World War II, right? And so they cut, their whole world was out of the 1950s, which was lots of drinking and smoking and social events and having these parties and such. And I would be a child and I'd be looking at the world and I'd be going, they're all actors. They're all fake. They're all playing a game. You know, I can't say I intellectually thought that when I was five years old, but I know that was a deep part of my experience >> is observing people

and how fake they are and how they're always pretending and they're always laughing when they don't really feel it. And they're smiling, they don't feel it, and they're Telling stories to kind of get rid of their pain. They have a lot of people have a lot of pain inside of them, but they try and mask it with a smile, with a laugh. You know, I'm not judging it. That's a good thing in some ways. But they're actors. Everyone is an actor. And and looking at my parents and their parties revealed to me at a very

early age that people are just acting, you know. Yeah. And I remember one time, I hope my mom wasn't hearing this, I was at Berkeley going to college and we that's my drug days, right? and I had taken some uh I think it was LSD and I got on the plane to go home to see my parents >> and I arrive at their house and I'm still kind of tripping and they're having a party. >> I I'm like tripping ahead in my Brain and I have to socialize with all these people >> like I freaked

out. But then I became like really talkative and everyone said afterwards my mom told me go Robert you finally came out of your shell. Everyone was saying how wonderful you were. They never seen you like that. >> They thought I was just suddenly you know blossoming but it was really like the LSD. I was acting >> based because of this psychedelic drug that made people's faces look all weird and everything you know. So a lot of dissociative experiences where I see people not as they are but as the what they pretend to be. M [snorts]

you know I I experienced it not as early as you but in my later maybe teenage years or young adult years where I would if I'm in a nightclub or at a lounge or at a restaurant and they're you know dancing in front of the table and sparkles Everywhere. I I like to observe people. I find it very interesting. So I till today I'll sit down and I'm like you are really not enjoying yourself like you can tell because a lot of them are on their phones. >> You're saying that about other people or about

yourself? >> No I'm watching. I don't enjoy a lot of loud places, but whenever I am in one, especially these loud places where it's so distracting, it's a lot of drinking Or music and and you're looking at them, you're like, are you are you even like having fun? Cuz you're on your phone. >> Yeah. >> And you're taking videos of yourself to tell people that listen, I'm having fun, by the way. But if you're truly having fun, like really 10 out of 10, nine out of 10, you kind of forget to touch your phone and

they're like, "Oh, oh, maybe you'll catch it for a moment." But it's it's weird. Like I watch it and it's the Mask thing or the the act >> Yeah. >> of like, "Hey, we're having fun." Because we're supposed to be having fun of their sparkles out of this champagne. And you're like, you have the wrong definitions of joy. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> you know, >> are you a writer? >> No. You should be a writer. You have a Writer's mind. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> You'd probably write a very interesting book. You should

think. >> I am doing one with a ghost writer, but I I'm good at speaking. And they would type what I say, but to actually write, I've never tried. >> Well, you've got kind of a writer's mind. I can tell. You should think about it. >> It's the first time I hear that. >> Yeah. Well, maybe I'm wrong, but I think so. >> Only if we usually not wrong, but >> we try, we will know. >> Okay. >> I'm a tryer. >> Okay. Can I get the red? Yeah. Okay. I have some red card questions.

Red card questions I usually would get maybe hypothetical questions, faster questions, some quotes. Um, >> you want me to keep my answers shorter? >> No. >> Okay. >> No, I don't have that uh style in my my interviews. You just speak as you want to speak. >> Okay. >> So, the the guy you mentioned is Juiced Alfred, you said? >> Yoast. >> Yoast. Okay. >> Um Okay. So since you I had him here. So Since you already explained who he was, um you wrote some great books such as the 48 Laws of Power, Mastery, The

Laws of Human Nature, The Art of Seduction, and More. Why are some books banned in some US prisons? >> Well, the only book that's really banned, as far as I know, is The 48 Laws of Power. And I don't think it's banned in every single prison. Certain states have banned it. Um, and I get emails, um, not so much Anymore, but I used to get a lot of emails from prisoners who read the book, >> and they would tell me how much it helped them. >> So, there's two sides of the story. It's kind of

schizophrenic. >> From the prisoners point of view, >> you know, I've never been in prison, obviously, but I can put my mind because I'm a writer inside that world and it's a very vicious world. And I've known prisoners. When I did the book with 50 Cent, one of his assistants had spent 20 years in prison for like a marijuana charge in New York. They had these laws that if you broke laws three times, they threw the book at you. Really the nicest men. And he explained to me, but you but I read books about prisons

because I'm very interested in it. It's a brutal environment in the United States in particular. You know, there's nothing. It's the 48 laws of power in its purest form. All these psychological games, all This manipulation, all these games of domination that are going on among prisoners, with the wardens, with the people policing the prisons, >> it's an elaborate pure game of power and it's very brutal. It's very ruthless. >> Right? >> So, they would tell me, people who wrote me, because now I don't think they're allowed to write me, they would write and say, "It

calmed me down. I could see the games that were being Played. I understood it on a higher level. I wasn't getting involved in this that or the other. It gave me perspective. Your book, they would say, and I'm not bragging. This is true stuff. Your book saved my life in prison. I have accumulated hundreds of these emails, these stories of people who said it literally saved them. Okay. So from the prisoner's point of view, it's not being used to manipulate People. It's being used to kind of figure it out. >> Now, there probably were some

prisoners who used it in the opposite way and they obviously aren't going to write me about it. So a little bit of this is that my perspective is a little bit slanted because the people who saved are the ones motivated to write me, >> but there are a lot of them. But from the authorities's point of view, their game is control. They're controlling These people, not physic, not just physically, but meant psychologically, right? They want them to feel helpless because if you have prisoners who don't feel helpless, well, you're in trouble, right? And so from

their point of view, this is a game that's teaching them how to survive well in prison. We don't want that. We want them to be terrified. We want them to be confused, right? So, we better ban this book. >> There's a a new trend in prisons, And it's a trend in the culture in general, I'm afraid to say, because as prisons go, so go the world. As DSTski wrote, you can judge a culture by how it treats by its prisons, right? So, it's not just isolated to prisons. But there's a whole trend in prison life

to curate what they can have intellectually, mentally, and creatively. So they can only see the most moronic TV shows, the ones that are like going to keep them in a state of Arrested development. They're not supposed to watch like political shows with analysis. And the books used to be the prison library for decades was the only place a prisoner could go for relief from this from the physical world because you could read a book, it could take you outside of the prison, right? That is how Nelson Mandela developed himself. That is how Malcolm X developed

himself. That's what Martin Luther King did for the few days he was in prison. The books, the library was their salvation, right? Well, now you can't just read any book. They curate the books for you. They give you their version of a Kindle of an ebook and you have a thousand books you can read, but none of them are challenging. None of them are intellectually developed. They're all mindless, you know, stuff, Harry Potter or whatever it is that they want to feed them. They're feeding them. They're Controlling their minds. That's how the world that we're

going to end up soon enough, at least in the United States, where they're going to be curating what we can read and what we can think. And so the 48 laws of power doesn't mix well with that kind of culture. >> You said never outshine the master. Why? Well, um, you know, you have to realize in the world, you have to learn this the hard Way because most young people don't learn it quickly enough or they never learn it. Everybody has an ego. Everybody you encounter has an ego. If you somehow trip on their ego,

if you somehow violate their ego, if you somehow make them feel insecure, you're going to pay a price. And if you go through life not realizing that, you're going to accumulate people with all kinds of resentments and at some point they're going to act against you, Right? So your boss who's above you, and everybody has a boss at some point, even you have a boss, somebody above you, right? Person financing your company or whatever. You like to think, "Wow, they're so powerful. They're not insecure, right? They're they're they must be the, you know, strongest person

because they're the boss, right? But they're the most insecure of all because they're always wondering, "Do people really like Me? Everybody smiles because I am the boss. They they like they're all yes to yes, you're wonderful. You're great." But deep down, do they really like me? Do they really respect me? >> Right? The bosses, the people who have power are the most insecure of all. They're always worried about whether people approve of them. They're always worried about who's after their job. If you somehow inadvertently make them feel insecure, You may make them feel like maybe

you are more popular than they are, you make them feel that maybe you are more intelligent than they are. If you make them feel like you are more good-looking than they are, you're going to trick that little insecure wire in their brain >> and you're going to pay for it. You're going to be in a lot of pain. They're going to fire you. They're going to make your life miserable. They're never going to admit it's because you made them feel Insecure. They'll say you did this, that, you're not performing well. You're not blah blah blah

blah, but they're going to f they're going to make your life miserable. So, you don't want to outshine the master. You want to realize everybody has an ego and you want to work with their egos and not work against them. But Robert, can we say that some masters are more controlled with their ego and they're open to having smarter people and all of That or am I not? >> Of course, it's it's it's a generalization >> and um and as all generalizations there there's a bit of uh falseeness to it. Yeah, there's there's gradations, but

even the most brilliant, humane, liberal, open-minded, wonderful, loving boss of them all has their insecurities. I'm sorry to say >> it's a law. Some are worse at it. Some have much bigger egos than others, >> but everybody has an ego. And so even if they accept having smart people around them and they're more open to being challenged and they say, "Come on everybody, I want you to tell me if my ideas are bad or stupid." And then you go ahead and you tell them that they might accept it, but they might not. >> So be

careful. >> Learn this law. It's very important law. And even in the most open liberal environment, it's a danger as well. It's Always a danger. And it's not just your boss. It's your colleagues as well. >> You also said crush your enemy totally. Why? >> All right. Well, this is a very misunderstood law. >> So, good. We can talk about it. >> You see, people nowadays are so impatient that they don't read books. They skim them. They get a little clip from it. They read the little paragraph. They see the title. go, "Oh my god,

crush your enemy totally." They don't goddamn read the chapter. And what I explain in the chapter is this is not about you as an individual facing your enemies and crushing them. It's like about businesses. It's about groups. It's about governments. It's about warfare. It's about politics, okay? It's about Republicans versus the Democrats. It's about Google versus Microsoft, right? >> It's about Russia versus Ukraine. The dynamic in these competitive environments is you either win and demoralize the other side or you're not going to win at all. You can't keep them around. Okay, so people, oh my

god, that's so cruel, Robert. You're so you're so violent. You're so immoral. All right, I'm sorry. It just drives me crazy. It makes me so angry. What do you think goes on in the tech world? What do you think the reason why Google and Amazon and FA and Meta and all the others are so powerful? They crushed every single enemy in their path completely. They obliterated them. >> I've given talks at Microsoft and I know people who Microsoft. This guy invited me over there years ago to give a talk. He had started up his own

startup in San Francisco. I don't know what it was about. >> What does Microsoft do their strategy? They buy the company. When they buy the Company, they've crushed them. They no longer have a competition. Gobble, gobble, gobble, gobble, eat up every single competitor. That's what made Amazon the beast that it is. So don't come to me with your kind of whining about crusher and tell how it's not the world, how it's evil. That is the law that governs the business world. I'm sorry to tell you, open your eyes. That is how the world operates. Don't

be so naive. Can we say that the jungle Operates the same way? >> The jungle, >> which jungle? >> Like a jungle with animals where a wild animal realizes there's another that's now disintegrating the power of the wolf pack or whatnot and then they're not going to have two two chefs in one kitchen. Does that make sense? Well, there's predatory animals and they're animals that are prey. >> Predatory animals are all about territory. M >> and marking off their territory and wolves if there is another wolf invading their territory they will kill it >> right

it's their territory so among predators definitely that law pervades yeah >> um you said pose as a friend work as a spy you're getting annoyed with the ones the quotes I'm bringing but I think these quotes are good because we get to Hear your side of them and a proper explanation rather than somebody just putting it on their Instagram story, you know. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. >> You want to know what that means? Well, >> your elaboration, of course. >> Well, you know, um, so sometimes, uh, people, friends >> aren't

necessarily who you think they are. Each law has two sides to it, right? >> There's the side of the aggressor who's using that law against you, right? amoral, whatever you want to call them, manipulative. >> And then there's you perhaps you the victim of their games. Right? So half the purpose of the laws is to reveal to you what other people might be doing to you. So another law in the book that People talk about as being evil, which might be on your list, >> no, >> is get other people to do the work, but

always take the credit. >> And in Hollywood, I was the victim of that. So, I'm not just telling you go out and take credit for other people's work. People are doing that to you. >> So, pose as a friend, work as a spy. If you're trying to gather information on people, on somebody that you don't like Or somebody is your competitor or your rival, if they know that you're a rival, they're going to be on their guard. They're going to be wary. They're going to be defensive. They're going to protect themselves. But if you lower

their resistance, the power game is about lowering people going around in the world. You're playing chess. You're lowering people's resistance so they don't defensive. So they don't know what you're up to. So They have no idea the game that you're playing. They think you're friendly. They think you're warm. They think you're a a really nice guy, but deep down you're playing this game, right? >> If they know you're playing the game, they're never going to fall for it. M >> so 90% of the game of power is disguising all that. So if you're trying to

gather information about power, about people and what they're up to and their intentions, you have to like lower their Resistance. You have to become their friend. You have to get on their side and then they won't suspect that you're actually secretly gathering information from them. >> And information, mind you, is not just spying. It's not just stealing things from their drawers, secrets, right? It's observing them. So, let's say I actually am your enemy right now, >> I really don't want the good in you. I want I want to get something out of you. Okay. Just

we're pretending. Okay. All right. So, I become your friend >> and we hang out. We're buddies and we go to these these restaurants in Dubai and everything. And then you start opening up and you start revealing to me some of your secrets, some of your weaknesses. I'm gathering information, information that I can now use against you. Right? >> So that's what it's about. It's Gathering information on people, but be wary of people who do that game to you. They might be playing that on you. Does that make sense? >> It makes sense. And just to

like summarize it to any listener, so your books are a huge form of awareness. >> Mhm. >> Not only that you should do what I'm telling you. I'm telling you it could be being done to you. So be aware. Don't be naive. Well, uh, listen, People who are truly amoral, who are true power players, they don't need my book. They know it. It's in their DNA. It's in their fingers. They know how to play the game. >> In fact, they don't read books usually. That's they're the type that doesn't need to read books, right? And

so the book is really for those who are naive like I was. I'm not a great power player in the world because I never had any power until I was 39 years old and wrote The books. I was pretty low down on the scale, right? So, I'm not writing it from the point of view of a Donald Trump or an Elon Musk. I'm writing it from the point of view of somebody very low down looking up. >> And so, you need people are too naive in this world. You know, your parents don't tell you what

the world is like. You enter the work world full of these ideals and these concepts and they're not real. You don't understand how the World operates. It could be kind of brutal out there. Not always, but it can be. You're too naive. You're too trusting of people sometimes. I'm not telling you to be paranoid. I'm telling you to be a little bit aware and to be on your guard sometimes. This will not make you an ugly person. It will spare you a lot of unnecessary drama. >> So, let's say you don't read Robert's book. You

don't care. You don't think About people's egos. You inadvertently offend your boss when you think you're not and now suddenly he or she is making your life hell and then they fire you >> and you're like this has happened to me before I wrote the books and you go home and you're miserable and you go what happened there? I was doing a good job and now I'm fired and it makes you confused and it makes you emotional and it makes you skittish and fearful of your next job. can ruin Your life. If you avoid that

and you don't outshine the master and this doesn't happen, you've spared yourself two years of internal turmoil and drama and doubts about yourself. >> Have you ever used the laws in your personal life? >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Of course. I wouldn't have written the book if I hadn't. >> When was the first time you felt Powerless? Well, I think a childhood, you know, um children are are are pretty helpless and me feeling somewhat neglected and feeling like I have to fend my way in this world. I felt pretty powerless and um and that's why

I retreated into my own world. I invented all of these games. A lot of them had to do with sports and warfare, which were my two passions as a child, right? I had armymen and I Invented these war games. >> And I loved baseball and football. I'm American. I can't help it. I invented these very elaborate games. When I entered these worlds, it was my world. Nobody else lived there. Nobody else could enter it. Nobody else could bother me. I had control. I had power and so I used my powerlessness to create my own worlds

>> where I was sort of in control. And what does power mean to you today? >> Power to me today is freedom. >> H it's the freedom for me. You're asking me personally? >> Yes. I don't have a boss. I don't have anybody censoring me. I don't have anybody telling me what kind of books I have to write. I can write what I want. My editor, you know, basically gives me card blanch. I have so much freedom. It's scary. And I appreciate it and I understand Because for those 38 years, I had no freedom. I

had no power. I know what it's like on the other side. >> So, I'm not callous. I understand that I'm very privileged, that I'm unusual that way, but damn it, man. I have I have so much freedom, you know? It's such a blessing. I can write this chapter now that I'm writing. I don't have to worry about what I say. I can be as brutal as I want to be about what's going on in the world. It's it's it's insane. And then I'm sorry it it's kind of hard for me to not be emotional about

it, but I have had a lot of impact on other people, right? That's probably the most satisfying thing in the world because I don't really write books for myself or for my ego. I know I'm sounding like I'm trying to promote myself, but it's true. I write it for other people. I write it with trying to help them, you know, seriously. Because I could have written Books in a year or two years that made a lot of money that had kind of a gimmick behind them and sold well, but they wouldn't have been good. They

wouldn't have really done what I wanted. I've taken a lot of time and I ruined myself physically to the point where I had a stroke because I really really truly want to help people in this world that's so could be so brutal. And so to get feedback from readers saying the books really really helped me Is a feeling of of the the most powerful feeling of all. Occasionally it's the opposite. Saying you ruined my life. You know my spouse, my partner, my boss read your book and they they screwed me. Not very often but mostly

it's like man you saved me so much. You helped me build my business. If it weren't for your book, this wouldn't below would have happened. So that's that's the kind of power I feel now and it's it's very satis I don't Take it for granted. Is it Did you end up writing the book that a young Robert needed? >> Yeah. Yeah. Very much so. Very much so. I mean, so put yourself in my shoes. I'm like 22 years old. I um I graduated college, you know, with a degree in classics, you know, my head's in

Homer and Thusidities and Shakespeare. Then I'm thrust after I came back from Paris into the world of New York. I live in New York, journalism, Esquire magazine, and all of a sudden I'm seeing all these people walking around. They're like actors. They've got these egos. They're all playing these power games. They're like courtiers in the court of Louis the 14th. all flattering these other writers, these the editors, etc. There's this game going on. I don't understand what's happening. I get very emotional. I get very confused. I get very upset. I Take it personally. The book

would have really might help me. Yeah, I think that's very much the case. Yeah. >> What does seduction mean to you? Because you wrote a book about seduction. Well, it's not a book. It's not a pickup artist book. Let's Let's make that clear. It's not a book for guys who want to go pick up women really quickly and easily because it's more elaborate than That. It's also a book that's for women seducing men because I make the point in the book that seduction is a form of power that women invented. It was the only form

of power that they had in the ancient world was the power of accordism, was the power of Cleopatra or Helen of Troy or whomever. Okay. So, um, seduction is not about getting quick sex or anything like that. It's a psychological process of making other people lower their Resistance, lower their walls, and open themselves up to you. And when they open themselves up to you, you can make them fall in love with you. You can make them do what you want. You can, yes, you can manipulate them. Or yes, you can start a relationship. You can

have love. Or yes, you can win a political campaign. Kennedy's campaign in 1960 against Nixon was a classic game of seduction, right? Or in your marketing campaigns, you're seducing the public. or as an artist Trying to win an audience as a as a like a 50 Cent or or a filmmaker, you're seducing the public. If you hit people directly in the face, if you're use the hard approach and hit them like people do in advertising like they used to do, people get defensive. >> But if you attack from the side, if you lower their resistance,

they open themselves up to your ideas. You can seduce them. So what interested me was the large psychological picture of Seduction. What ties together a political, a marketing, a social, and a sexual seduction? What is the psychological process that connects all of these forms together? And that's what I tried to describe in the book. >> Do you regret writing any of your books? >> Well, as Edith P once saying, which means I don't regret anything. >> What's what is the point of regret? >> It's quite >> Can you tell me what the point is? >>

I know that you know some people enjoy regret because their ego is attached to feeling sorry for themselves. >> Yeah. >> But it's quite a waste of time. >> The past is the past. >> If if you want to learn from the past, if you said, "I did something wrong. I hurt somebody >> or I won't do it again." Well, what what's the point of regretting it? Yeah, You're right. It's for their ego. So, um I've had a lot of tough things. I've made mistakes. I don't regret any of them. >> I outshone the master

and got fired twice. Painful experiences. But if it hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been able to write law number one of the 48 laws of power. >> I don't regret anything. And I'm serious about that >> or sincere about that. What does love Mean to you? >> Well, one of the chapters in the sublime book is about love. I call love sublime. >> Okay. >> And um now love, you know, I I I'm somebody who who loves animals. I've always had dogs and cats in my life. And I'm not putting her in second place behind

this. And I have a wife, a girlfriend and wife, right? And so to me the feeling is of losing yourself in This other being. So the t title of that particular chapter is escape the prison of the ego >> love sublime. So you're trapped inside of your ego. You're trapped inside of your own walls. You're defensive. You have your own experiences. You have your own world. And it get oppressive. It can feel like you're in a prison. >> The same thoughts over and over again. the same worries, the same concerns. It's boring. It's banal. Other

people draw you out of that world. And when you love someone, you're slowly slowly dissolving all of those ego barriers. You're entering their world and you have a sense of oneness with their other being, right? And you have that with you can have that with animals. You can have that with a man or a woman. You can have that, I guess, with a group. You can have that with the universe >> as a spiritual experience which is a Part of a lot of religions. >> But it's the feeling of losing all those hard barriers of

the ego. It's softening. In in Buddhism, in Zen, they call it ego attrition. The slowly dissolving smaller and smaller the ego becomes. And as it dissolves, you feel a a sense of unity with everything around you. >> Well, if it's with a person, >> it's a wonderful feeling. >> And somehow people think of like there's Like a a a scale, a hierarchy of love as if love between a man and a woman is degraded, but love with God is something higher. I'm saying no. Love between two people is the is the highest form of all.

It's the complete getting rid of outside of yourself. It is the highest form of love. It is the love that is behind all the spiritual experiences. >> So I wrote the chapter because I think people nowadays aren't capable of Loving. They're too they're too protective. They're too defensive. M >> they don't want to feel hurt because they don't want to be hurt. They don't want to give so much of themselves. They don't want to be generous with their spirit. They want to protect themselves. So at the slightest kind of conflict with with their partner, they

retreat and they get into their shell. >> As I was saying, it's just this Generation, but I think it's getting worse and worse and worse. People are more defensive. They're more locked inside themselves. They're more locked inside their phone. Right? So, I wrote the book because it seems like romantic love between a man and a woman is seen as something corny and sentimental and old-fashioned and like we've outgrown that here in the 21st century. Man, that is really sad and that is really Pathetic of you. And that is really actually to deprive yourself of what

some of the greatest emotions that a human could have. >> It's a nice answer to the love definition. What's your advice for people who are in love or falling in love? This is good because you just mentioned how it's become difficult. Well, um, so in the chapter I talk about the word Falling, which is very appropriate. So, you're falling. You're literally like you're on a mountain and you're falling, falling, falling, falling. Right? That could be a scary sensation. >> Like, what if I hit the ground? What if I'm crushed? What if I'm killed by it?

And then you become worried and you better I'm not going to fall. I'm going to catch myself halfway and I'm going to pull myself back up. I'm saying you want to keep falling. So [snorts] if you have a conflict with with the person that you love, which is inevitable, which we've all had and I have even to this day, right? It's not a moment for you to step back and protect yourself and get out of the relationship and go onto Tinder and find quickly find somebody else. It's the moment to work on it, >> right?

To move past it to get outside of yourself to see their perspective. You know, You find if you there's something I wrote in the laws of human nature, which is a basic thing of psychology. Human interactions are back and forth. It's never one side doing one thing. So, if the other person is suddenly acting prickly and defensive and unpleasant around you, it very well might be coming from you. It might be because you are the one kind of feeling that way. You're infecting them with that emotion. You're projecting it onto them and you're Imagining it's

all coming from them. They're the one at fault. But actually, it's a it's a game of tennis. It's going back and forth. You're part of it as well, >> right? So, if there are problems, a lot of it could be stemming from yourself. So, look inward. And the more that you give of yourself, the more that you stop being so defensive, it infects the other person and they open up to you as well. So am I Answering your question? >> Okay. >> Because if we apply it to people are falling in love, you're kind of

telling them give more of yourself because it's contagious. >> Yeah. >> And keep falling. >> Yeah. Fall all the way until you hit the ground. a splatter >> or land on your feet? >> Yeah. >> Um, do you believe all people are born good? >> All people do I believe all people are born good. >> Well, it's I don't think it's, you know, sometimes it's good to admit that you're ignorant that you don't know the answer to a question. I don't really know the answer to that question. >> It's something that how do you answer

that? I mean there's a concept of the Bad seed. So there's a very good movie that was made I think in the late 50s early 60s called the bad seed >> and it's about uh this woman um her husband's away in the army and she has a daughter this cute little blonde girl seven eight years old and she's actually incredibly evil. She's like killing people to get their their little prize that they won in in some ceremony, right? She's killing she's Killed like three people in the course of the movie but she's so sweet and

angelic and the movie is called the bad seed and in the course of the movie you learn that probably her parents or grandparents were also killers. So there's a question of are some people genetically >> born that way. I don't know. It's a good question and there's evidence for possibly that. M >> so there's a famous psychoanalyst from the 40s named Melanie Klene a Freudian psychologist psychoanalyst >> her specialty was studying babies and infants and she wrote brilliant books about how infants think and what their world is like which is a fascinating subject >> and

she spent her whole life studying them. She had this concept that there are greedy babies. And what she determined was a greedy baby is sucking on the mother's breast almost violently and wants more milk, more milk, more milk, more milk from the mother. They're already greedy and they're going to grow up being people that need and want more and more of the world. They're going to push others around. They're going to be aggressive. She speculated that it was genetic, that there was like a genetic component to them being born this way, but she was Speculating.

>> So, you know, most people are born innocent, their children, and if they're corrupted, they're corrupted by their parents and by the world. But there could be some 2% 1% of people who are literally born bad seeds >> who will become serial killers because there's something genetically wrong with them. I can't really answer that question, but it's a fascinating question. Thank you. Um, for you, Robert, what's an unforgivable action? Well, you know, um I don't really know if I have one single action that's like that, but um I do know, and here I'm going to

get slightly political, I suppose. There are things going on in my country right now that are really deeply disturbing me because I'm American. And I was born in America, raised here, educated here, and have a kind of instinctual love of my country. And there are things going on for me that are unforgivable, that make me embarrassed, that make me ashamed, that make me very, very angry. And so I like to treat um I've always been somebody who loves other cultures, right? So I love America. I love our literature. I love our music, but there isn't

a culture in The world that I'm not interested in because they're fascinating. Everybody, you know, in Los Angeles, we grew up with a Latino culture that's very strong even in the 60s, right? And I always loved it. I always thought my parents would take me to this part of LA called Ala Street. Um, I was just mesmerized by the different colors, the different food. I love other cultures. And so the sense of nationalism, of America first, of white people first, of This first, it disgusts me. It's it's unforgivable because the truth is, I'm going to

get criticized a lot for this, but the truth is we all come from the same mother hundreds of thousands of years ago. We're all related, right? You know, it's very sad to me what's going on obviously in Israel. As someone who's Jewish, I have deep empathy for what the Palestinians are suffering right now. I've known Palestinians. I've Talked to them and it's horrifying. It really is horrifying. I'm I'm conflicted about it because I am Jewish, but it's horrifying. They're the same people. They come to the same Seemetic origins. They come from the same land. at

least at least some of them, you know, because there's Spharic and there's Ashkanazi Jews. We're all related. We're all come from the same seeds. It's and so it's unforgivable to be Dividing people culturally and ethnically and nationally that way. And I don't know, I'm not really answering your question, but that's to me something that gets me very angry and very unforgivable. It's a it's a form of stupidity. It's a form of not thinking and not understanding and being very limited in how you view the world. It's unforgivable. No, I think you answered that very well

and you you you zoomed it out much more Than just a personal disliking to one characteristic trait. >> Mhm. >> What's the biggest mystery for you in life? >> My biggest mistake. >> Mystery. What's your biggest mis What's the biggest mystery for you? Mystery in life. Yeah. >> Well, I mean obviously uh what happens after death is is the biggest mystery that we all face, you know. Um We can be so sophisticated with all our algorithms and all our knowledge and all our technology and all our science. We can explore the roots of consciousness. We

can explore where our ancient ancestors came from, how the brain works, but we'll never ever ever know what happens after death. >> And it's bedeled us forever. And so this story I'm reading about now from my last chapter of a man who fell into the most intense Near-death experience ever recorded. And he was a neurologist for seven days. He was completely brain dead, right? Which means his brain is literally not functioning. It's dead. He still has some life functions. The hospital had given him up for being dead, but he was still being kept alive, but

his brain wasn't functioning. And yet he had all of these visions and going on in his head. And he goes, he poses the question, if my brain is dead, If it's not functioning, if it's not able to create images, >> what what's happening? And so the mystery is, is the mind and the brain the same thing? Right? Because we assume that the mind comes from the brain, but the brain is dead and the mind is still functioning, still going on. What does that mean? >> He speculated, and he's a scientist, that it means that there

is something Else to consciousness, that something happens after you're dead, and that he speculated that there is an afterlife. I'm not going to go there, but the idea that the mind and the brain are not the same thing. And we have lots of evidence for that in other areas >> is the biggest mystery and the most fascinating thing of all. It's like the topic of soul, you know, what is it? Is it something actually that leaves you? It's not your brain. And there's a verse In the Quran that says um because soul in Arabic is

and in this verse it says which means for the matters of the soul that's matter for God like we will never comprehend it. >> It's interesting. >> Yeah. >> You know like you said some things that are beyond us. >> Um this question I would love to ask you. It's if you could teach every child In the world one lesson, what would you teach? Well, um the lesson is so what makes children so different, we started off talking about that and so unique >> is the sense that they feel ignorant. And because they feel ignorant,

they're curious, right? I don't know what's going on in the world. I don't know why this is happening here. I better read about it. I better learn about it. I'm Curious because I don't know why things are the way they are. >> Okay? And then you get older and you think you know everything. You know, I don't need to think about that. It's so obvious. I read in a book. Science has told us this. You know, uh I read on Amazon. I read on a podcast. Robert Green said this, "I understand what the world's like."

Right? So, you want to tell the child to keep that sense of ignorance, to keep that sense of you Don't know what the world is about and that you're curious. Do not lose that. >> The great proponent of that in history was Socrates who believed that there's no knowledge without ignorance. That you always begin from the proposition that you do not understand. And from that sense of I do not understand. You're open. You're open to different explanations to different possibilities. >> Do not lose that. Do not lose that. That is a skill. That is what

makes an Albert Einstein who he is because he retained that childlike wonder. That is what makes a great artist, you know, who who thinks about things deeply and and and originally. they retain that sense that they do not understand and they want to learn. So learning is is is the most exciting thing in the world for me at least. I don't know for other people >> when I feel like there's something I don't know and I learn about it. It's as good as sex almost I can say you Know it's just exciting. It's almost like

a mental orgasm. I'm learning something >> right? But you can't learn things if you think you already understand the answers. Right? So I want to tell that child to retain that curiosity. And they have a phrase in Spanish that the pain Goya used even when he was in his 70s and it's ao which means I'm still learning. >> So you always want to keep that. You Always want to arendo. You're always learning things. There was a I I enjoy listening because if I speak a lot, I'm just recycling what I already know. >> Mhm. >>

But if I listen, I might learn something new. >> Yeah. But I'm doing all the speaking. >> Just in this case, you but but you you also learn because you're a curious human and that's how you're you said six Years now on the current book. That's a learning. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um if you could have once Are you tired by the way or are you okay? I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna reach my wall soon, but I'm okay. >> I think we don't have too many. >> Okay. >> Um, if you could

have one superpower, what would it be? >> Well, you know, I just want my body back. I don't know if I'm asking too much, but before my stroke, my greatest pleasures in life were swimming. I would swim long distances. My mind would go to these other places. I would take these long hikes. >> I would get on my mountain bike. I'd go out in the world. I just want that back. I don't care. That would be the superpower I'd want. >> Just to have my 30, 40, 50y old body back with all the powers that

I had. I don't ask for anything else. I don't ask to live forever. I don't ask for eternal youth. I don't ask for a billion dollars. I just want my body back and being able to do the things that I used to love. >> If you could um have a dinner table with three guests, dead or alive, who would you invite with you? >> If it's you and three, >> I would invite Buddha, Jesus Christ, and Makaveli. >> Interesting. That's a We need cameras on that table. >> [laughter] [clears throat] >> I mean, um, I

I watch movies a lot at night and, um, there's a movie, there's a famous Italian director named Pasolini, Pierre Pasolini, >> from the 50s and 60s. >> He did a version of the gospel according to St. Matthew, I believe, and he literally um went and and shot exactly what's written in the New Testament. And he does it as as if you're actually there. And the actor who was plays Christ is not a professional actor. He was it's the only thing he ever played in his life. >> And it makes you so interested. I'm Jewish, obviously.

I'm not raised Christian. But it makes you so interested in the person. Not in all the myths, not in all the history, not in the actual religion that came, but the actual person. >> It's a fascinating figure, you know, and I really would and maybe I should have invited Muhammad on that as well. He'd be the fourth person. >> Um, what is a piece of advice you've never forgotten? Well, It was a negative advice. I've told the story before, but I was living in New York. >> Probably about 25 years old. I was writing for

a magazine. >> Uh it was a magazine for Italian Americans, a glossy magazine called a tension. And um I written an article about traveling in Italy, which I thought was a very good article. Then the editor of the magazine has me out for lunch >> and he's kind of this older guy who ends up as kind of an alcoholic and he's having his like second martini during lunch and he says he starts laying it to me. He goes, "Robert, you know, I was looking at your article and I want to give you some advice and

my advice is you're not a writer. Give it up. you you don't have the right mentality, right? You're not disciplined. You're writing all over the place. You're not controlled. You're not you're not really Communicating the way you think you're communicating. It's not >> the right kind of what we need for our magazine. If I were you in this kind of harsh world, I would go to business school because it's going to be very hard for you to earn a living as a writer. Whoa. Okay. Kind of reeling from that for several days. And then I'm

thinking because inwardly I'm a pretty tough person. I'm going well, you know, maybe there's some truth to what he's saying. >> And the truth is I'm never going to be good at journalism. I don't like journalism. The reason I don't like journalism is you write something that's for immediate for like something that happened for the last three days. >> People read it and then it's gone. Nobody ever reads it again. You're Always locked in the present moment. And I'm somebody who thinks in terms of thousands of years, not in three days or four day increments.

It's a bad fit. I'm not made for journalism. You are a writer, Robert. Do not get discouraged. It just means that this guy's an alcoholic. He's got problems. He's projected them on to you. You still you still can write. It's just that you're not meant to write journalism. So, it always stuck in my mind. >> Hearing people tell me I can't do something always kind of motivates me to do it. >> It's my great fantasy. There was this physical therapist who said, "Robert, you're never going to be able to ride a bicycle again." And as

I told this other therapist, "My great fantasy is in a couple years to get on a bicycle to ride by her house and to give her the finger." You know, anyway, >> do you know her address? >> I'll find it. [laughter] And you know, it kind of pisses me off when especially doctors act like gods and they go tell one of your family members, I think you have two and a half months. I'm like, >> where do you get these forecasts? Cuz 90% of the time they're so inaccurate. Like even my grandma, I think one

doctor told her, I'll make up a number like two months and she was 2 years and like how Annoying. Not even annoying is a understatement to go to a patient and tell them something. How demotivate how do you feel that patient leaves? If you just say your condition is really tough, >> I would really urge you to have quality time. That's fine. You don't need to tell them you have two months. >> Well, I don't know. Or you can I don't know. I just find it like it's very it's a failed forecast many of the

times. Well, there's Something called the the placebo effect, but there's also another word I it's eluding me right now, >> but the phenomenal effect. So, they've discovered I read about this in human nature that if a teacher in a classroom simply thinks that her students are all going to go to college, that they're all very intelligent, >> they will end up having higher scores. So how you treat people and how you talk to them even non-verbally communicates To them. So if you give them hope, their willpower is engaged and they're going to want they your

willpower can make you live longer than ever, right? >> So you never want to tell you never want to like make people feel like they can't do something. >> You want to do the opposite because maybe that motivates them to do it. >> Horrible. I hate doctors. Okay, I'm going to This is No, this is >> This looks forbidding. Forboding. >> We'll just do one. >> This is a card game I'm going to give you so you can enjoy it with your partner, with your friends. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. Tell me with this. >>

Tell me which one I should choose for you. >> This one. Okay, let's see what faith what fate holds for you. When were you So, when I'm going to ask you, you throw this on the floor and It's the way to answer. When were you the most disappointed in yourself? Oh my god. Even yesterday we got a flip. Flip means both of us. Like flip usually the other so I have to answer. But since it's a it's an episode with you, we'll both answer. When were you the most disappointed in yourself? Um well um I

don't know if if this is quite the right answer but um because there might Have been something else. So one of let's say >> yeah I can think of two but um one of them was I was to write a book with 50 Cent uh which I ended up doing and um I interviewed him for hours and hours and hours. I compiled all this information and then I wrote started writing the book and I was showing it to people and normally everybody loves what I write And nobody was like huh they weren't they weren't excited

about it >> and then um and then the publisher cancelled the project. They backed out. They they wanted their money back. They thought they said it was because it was taking too long, but perhaps I think it was because they weren't excited by the what I was writing. I was very disappointed in myself. >> And um somebody took me aside, I don't Remember who it was, and they said, "Robert, this book needs more of you and less of 50." In other words, you have to bring more of yourself. You can't just write a book just

about 50. There has to be something in you >> that is going on. And I realized that I'm always trying to please other people. And I realized I was trying to please him too much and it wasn't making it a Good book. >> And it made me upset with myself because that is my weakness. I don't I I'm too trying too hard to please someone and I don't realize that the best thing sometimes is to is just go your own way and do what you want to do and not think about them. >> And so

we found so the story has a happy ending. I was very disappointed in myself because nothing I never failed at anything before >> since I had done the 48 laws part. was a failure, a true failure because if the book's canceled and 50s done all this work with me, you know, I'm going to be crushed. We found a new publisher editor for in a different publishing company. And he said, "Robert, this is how you have to write." This might have been the person who told me what to do. And he said, "That's the good news.

You can redo the book. The bad news is you have only eight months." Sh, I can't write a Whole book like that in eight months. But I did. Hm. >> I rose to the occasion. I got all my energy together and I wrote the book and I think it came out a lot better than what I had thought I was doing. But for a while I was very disappointed with my people pleasing tendencies. I was being too survile to 50. Instead of thinking of it as an equal thing, >> me and 50 are equal. Me

as a writer, he is a rapper. >> I was deferring to him too much. Last few questions. >> Yeah. What are you afraid of? [snorts] >> I'm afraid of losing my mind. I'm afraid of like Alzheimer's or dementia. I'm so attached to thinking and always like you know connecting to a phenomena in the world that madness or being thrust so deep inside of yourself that you can't get out would be my worst nightmare of all. So my stroke as I said Amor fati it was on blood clot here which goes to the right side of

my brain right which stops oxygen so damage here in the right side of my brain which causes the left side of my body to have no strength. If the blood clot had been on this side and it hit the left side of my brain, you lose language skill. You lose cognitive powers. You become almost brain dead or you can that I'm so blessed that it happened on The right and not the left side. I mean, I lost my body, but I kept my mind. Losing my mind would be my thing I'm afraid of most. Robert,

who's someone that you lost and every time you remember them, your heart aches. Well, there are two people. There's my father who died um in 19 in 2000 and um he saw my first book, The 48 Laws of Power. He's a very calming person and I miss him terribly. But then uh I had An old friend from junior high school named David Robach who became a pretty well-known rock musician. He had a band called Maisy Star. >> He was pretty well known. He was very excellent musician. I didn't hang out with him a lot, but

we had a deep deep connection intellectually from when I was very young. We both played the clarinet in junior high school band. And then he was like a year Younger than me, but we had the same interests and every time we saw each other there was like this intense bonding. And then I lost total touch with him. He moved to London. He lived in London. Then he was living in Norway with his with his Finnish wife. And out of the blue after not hearing from him for 15 years, he wrote me saying he loved the

48 laws of power. It helped him immensely dealing with the music world. We reconnected. I hung out with Him in Norway. I hung out again a few more times and then he passed away about four years ago and I feel so sad because um I just you know I love the con I miss it deeply you know and it's like a part of my childhood and my youth it's gone. There'll be nobody else who can replace that. Nobody else that I had these experiences with. But I have no one to share it with. I have

no one to talk to about. It's just all inside of me. And I I loved him very much. He was a really great soul and um I miss him terribly. So those are the two people I would mention. Also my cat, but I'm not going to get into that. >> If you could write your friend a letter today and he would read it, what would you write to him? I would tell him how I I listen to his music. So to comm community to to feel him his presence again I listened to his Music. He

had several bands in the he had a band in the Los Angeles in the 80s and then he had a really great band in the 90s and then he had this Massie Star. I listen to his music and um that I think about him all the time and that I'm going to mention him in the in my new book in the acknowledgements. I'm going to thank him for the talks that we had when I was 19 years old and I I visited him in when he was in college in in Minnesota when I was in

Wisconsin. I Was going to mention how much he enriched me and so I would write a letter telling him how his spirit is inside the new book. Um, what would you like hopefully after a long and healthy life, what would you like to be carved on your tombstone under your name? Well, [sighs and gasps] uh I know my my legacy will be from my books and so that's not going to be Carved on my tombstone, but um I do meditation every morning and it's a form of of Zen meditation. And in Zen meditation, they have

what are called co-ands, >> which are little kind of sentences that you read. They're called like barriers to enlightenment. >> They're called the gateless barrier because there's no physical gate, but it's a barrier and it's all in your Mind. In fact, it's all about getting past your mind, cutting off the mind, entering enlightenment. And the first coan that everybody studies and that I'm currently working on is called m and that goes Joshu. Somebody asks the the great Zen monk Joshu or priest does a dog have Buddha nature? Because the question in in Buddhism is who

has what is Buddha nature and who Has it? >> And of course obviously all living things have Buddha nature. But the person asking the question, it's like a trick question. And Josh Shu answers m which he was Chinese, but in Japanese m means no. Doesn't have it. Nothing. He's answering kind of no, but it's not no. It's something else. It's saying there is no answer. Yes and no are meaningless. Words are meaningless. What the reality Is everything is one. You can't even ask a question like that, right? Okay. You're supposed to go deeply, deeply, deeply

into m. You repeat it. You It becomes a mantra. You become that word. >> That would be the word on my tombstone because it means nothing. >> It's like the It's like the um contra the paradox. It's like the opposite of trying to say something. It says nothing. It is meaningless. I think it's >> it is it is a paradox. >> I feel it says nothing in everything. >> Well, it does like if you say one, right? You said it's all one. >> Yeah. >> That's why we can't separate them. So when you say m

it's nothing but it's everything. >> Yeah, that's a good answer. >> But I would have it in the Japanese characters cuz they're beautiful. >> Yeah. Nice last question. Oh, >> okay. Uh, Robert in one word. >> Kind of relentless. >> Relentless. >> Why do you say that? >> Cuz I I just don't stop. I don't I don't relax. I don't sit down and just mellow out and do nothing. I just add it, add it, add it, add it, add it, add it. Probably to an unhealthy degree. M but uh you know like uh my sister

has the same thing. We don't like stopping. >> We want to keep moving. So if we're in a car and somebody goes, "Oh, let's stop over here and look at something." No, no, no. Just keep going. Just keep going. Move, move, move. So I I don't like stopping. I like keep moving. I'm kind of relentless that way. And if you put a mountain in front of me, I'll climb it and I'll keep climbing it. They say sharks don't stop moving. You know that that if they stop they like die. >> Wow. No, I never knew

that. >> I think we can chat GPD it that even when they sleep they have to keep moving. >> Wow. I guess I'm a shark then. >> Yes. [laughter] >> Well, you know sharks can live to like 300 years. >> So there there must be some wisdom to that. [laughter] >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate the Second [music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. N. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. N. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music]