Challenging Mike Winger on Paul, Artemis, and Women in the Church

Hi I'm Mike BN I'm continuing my series responding to Mike Winger's case for complementarianism especially his reading of 1 Timothy 21-15 what I'm going to do is firstly engage Winger explanation his ex aesus of 1 Timothy 21-15 and then I'm going to offer my own alternative reading for what this text meant I think in the first century this is going to be a long video there's a lot to cover but if you Stay with me stay through to the end I think you'll find a fairly charitable and generous critique of Winger and hopefully I can

set before you an alternative view as to how we should understand 1 Timothy 21-15 and even if you don't agree with me at the end I hope I've at least challenged you or made you think about this text in a new way but if we sum up Winger's View in his mind Paul prohibits women from the office of Pastor and Elder you know teaching in corporate worship and leading a church outside of that context he's more generous as to what Ministries women can perform so he's not the most extreme complimentary in you'll come across but

he is Resolute that women cannot teach as pastors or Elders of the church now I've already done a previous video where I've kind of laid the groundwork for a study of one Timothy I've spoken about the letter the context what is the possible false Teaching that was going around Ephesus at the time but the real crucial issue is what does Paul prohibit in 1 Timothy 2:12 and why in Winger's mind Paul prohibits women from teaching Doctrine and holding the office of elder or Pastor now he butresses that claim with four main points the four pillars

of his argument and they are first one Timothy is set in the church context and it's about prohibiting women from exercising pastoral leadership in the church and The teaching Doctrine as an elder secondly the says there is Paul's appeal to the order of creation and the fall which means the prohibition is transcultural it's not based on the situation in Ephesus it's transcultural thirdly he says the prohibition Dove tales with Paul's alleged insistence on the headship of husbands in the home and fourth he says the reference to save through childbearing is too obscure to form the

Basis of any confident assertions about the meaning of the passage and its application so they are Winger's four main premises what he believes supports his particular complementarian reading of 1 Timothy 2: 11-15 let's break them down one at a time and let's test them let's see how they stand up so first of all let's look at that proposition that 1 Timothy 2 is said in the church context and is about prohibit prohibiting women from Exercising pastoral leadership in the church and from teaching Doctrine as an elder Winger believes that Paul prohibits women from in his

words the public teaching of Doctrine or to wield authority over men as an elder would or someone in pastoral office in addition he believes it's about women in general and not simply about wives in particular now most translations of 1 Timothy 2: 11-15 render the Greek word goona as woman you a woman should be learning Quietly in all submissiveness I do not perit a woman to teach but it's very possible here to translate gun not as woman but as wife in fact that is the translation opted for by the common English Bible the CB which

says this a wife should learn quietly with complete submission I don't don't allow a wife to teach or to control her husband instead she should be a quiet listener now I want to submit to you that that reading of the text makes a lot of sense first Of all we've got to consider the parallels with 1 Corinthians 11 2-16 and 1 Corinthians 1434 to35 uh that text those those two texts in one Corinthians are about Authority creation husbands wives and you know decorum in the church kind of similar to what we have in 1 Timothy

2 11-15 in fact if you look at the ESV the ESV translation committee they were persuaded to translate gune as wife rather than as woman because Archaeological evidence shows that only wives not all women only wives to wear head coverings see the ESV note on 1 Corinthians 11:5 I mean for most of the time of the translation of the English Bible 1 Corinthians 11 was normally translated as woman but now more recent translations including the ESV are rendering that as wife rather than woman also going back to 1 Timothy 2 consider this you know Paul

makes prohibitions on what women should not wear you know they Should not wear extravagant clothing you know they should do good deeds they should learn in quietness and submission but that's not just limited to corporate worship is it I mean good deeds are not just limited to what you do at church wearing too much bling or wearing too much extravagant clothing that's not just restricted to you know what you wear at church Paul's not saying hey when you come to church keep it plain Jane but for a night on the town you Know dress like

a goddess if you like I mean that's that's not what Paul's prohibiting it's can't not just restricted to corporate worship the other thing we can note is the shift in the plural for men and women in verses 8-9 of 1 Timothy 2 the transition to then the singular man and woman in verses 11 to4 I think that indicates a shift from the worship setting of the church in general to the house setting or maybe it it indicates a narrowing Down on a particular type of relationship you could also add that Adam and Eve are invoked

as the first husband and wife couple now Winger does make a legitimate point that Adam and Eve can also be seen as the representatives of men and women in general I think that's too but they're also the primordial or the Primeval married couple and finally uh Paul mentions childb birth at the end now I don't know what type of worship Services You go to but the ones I go to uh don't normally include someone giving birth or a woman giving birth uh during the worship service you've never heard the worship leader saying you know hey

choir that was a fantastic rendering of how great th Thou Art and now as is our custom uh I'm going to invite Becky to come up and give birth to a baby you know you that doesn't happen the child birth stuff doesn't happen in church and speaking of The child birth stuff in verse 15 it says she will be saved through child child birth if they continue on in love goodness and Holiness the shift from she to they may indicate the wife and husband relationship she will be saved through childbirth if that they husband and

wife if they continue in faith love and Holiness so I would say just as the IG Fe translate gun as wife in the right parts of 1 Corinthians 11 so too we Should follow the CB in translating gun as wife in 1 Timothy 2 and I think you find that household setting will be very sing very important when it comes to understanding the meaning of authent more on that later now I've argued for the meaning of wife rather than woman in 1 Timothy 2 cuz I think it does pertain to the husband wife relationship but

this is what I've got to acknowledge the husband wife relationship does interface with the church context you know very Similar to 1 Corinthians 14:33 to35 where wives are told not to be disruptive during the worship service I I I think that's very similar to what we have here you know wives you know with their husband should not call disturbances and public worship with their own bickering disputing or asking questions or anything like that uh remember as well uh if these uh Ephesian churches are house churches then they overlap somewhat with households don't They you know

household has the P familias the husband wife children slaves freed men relatives Wier retainers friends and wellwishers it's also a world where the boundaries between public and private life are a little bit more permeable and porous so while I think the main context here is the husband and the wife it still has relevance for the House Church context in the sense of you know not causing disturbances in commotion in the Gathered Worship in the house of a a patron or even in in your own house if the church is meeting in your own house and

you're the you're the head of that house in effect a wife should not harass or be Hoy with her husband over Christian teaching either in the home or in the midst of House Church worship and that's based on the idea that household and House Church are not the same thing but they do overlap that's the point I want people to take away you can't Simply think about the church as something that's segregated from people's home life because these things probably overlap to some degree but here's the other thing I want to say if you limit

the context of 1 Timothy 2 to pastoral Ministry and the functions of an elder in the sense that women are prohibited from a preaching pastor and having the authority of an elder if that's the case then that would mean women can have authority and they can Teach outside a church context so women can lead Nations governments companies Public Services schools seminaries and other par Church Ministries and in fact that's precisely what Mike Winger believes he believes that the wing that the sorry that the prohibition does not apply outside of a church context specifically corporate worship

at church so he's a complementarian but in his own view he's not a patriarchal so he's happy for women to Have leadership and teaching responsibilities in other places I think Winger would be very happy to get uh pianoist from a very very talented piano teacher if he so wished one of the reasons that Winger justifies this though is quite interesting he justifies it with an appeal to Priscilla and Aquilla teaching a polis Christian doctrine in Acts 18 but he claims it was done privately but I just want to ask the question was it because if

you go to Acts 18: 26 it doesn't say it was necessarily done privately no I mean translations do give you that impression but that's not explicitly what is laid out into the Greek text it simply says that they received him you know the Greek word there is PR lambano they received him and explained the way of God to him or accurately but they received him into what did they take him to a side room in the synagogue did they take him into their shop did they take Him into their house into their house church we

don't know if it was public or private instruction and plus Wing wants to make a big distinction between church and non-church context between public and private spheres which in the ancient world were not neatly divided I think those divisions are just much looser in ancient Ephesus maybe part of apollis instruction was what we would call private and public worship maybe he learned from Priscilla an Aquilla Through some private coaching but also from attending their house church I mean it could it could refer to a wide sway of activities here not just being taught something privately

by a woman so that's my understanding of the context I think it's primarily orientated towards uh husbands and wives but you know it does overlap a bit with the wider House Church context and the phenomen of people gathering in houses to hold their worship service to have common meals and Meet together for for prayer for praise Proclamation that sort of a thing I think a Winger attempt to limit this just to a church context doesn't fit the reality of the ancient world and also doesn't account for the parallels with one Corinthians where even the House

Church problems have a lot to do with husband and wife relationships I mean you have to admit that you have to admit that if one Corinthians provides a parallel husband and wife relationships And house Church relationships these things do overlap but let's look at Winger's second point that is Paul's appeal to the order of creation and the four means the prohibition is transcultural which is to say the prohibition of women leading and teaching or or or the importance of male Authority that is true before the fall and it's true after the fall okay the idea

that men lead that's not just something that happened after the fall So Winger claims that the prohibition about women teaching and holding holding authority over a man is explained by being rooted in Adam's priority and Authority in creation and that is the holy spirit's interpretation of the Old Testament and that is established by uh God and that happens before the fall now I've got to admit for me when I was a complementarian this was the Clincher this was the thing I grabbed onto male Authority is rooted in the order of Creation it's about Adam's primogeniture

he was born first he was made first by God and he was invested with Divine Authority and the woman was simply there to be his helper the idea that men lead that's not a consequence of the Fall that's the consequence of the order of creation but appeals to Natural order and to the created order are more complicated than you might think and and often they reflect cultural Moray about what is natural and normal now this is Going to be a hard pill to swallow it's taken me a long time to Grapple with this and get

my head around it but this is this is the basic idea I've got even appeals to Nature and creation can be culturally contingent so let me give you examples and the best examples we have of this are actually from Paul himself in 1 Corinthians 11 Paul appeals to Nature to creation Genesis about head coverings and hair length for both men and women let's Let's go over and read what Paul actually says in this letter let's look at 1 Corinthians 11 he says for a man ought not to cover his head since he is the image

and glory of God but woman is the glory of man for man was not made from woman but woman from man neither was Man created for woman but woman for man that is why a wife or to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels and then also uh later in the Same chapter Paul says judge for yourselves is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head covered does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him but if

a woman has long hair it is to her glory for her hair is given to her for a covering if anyone is inclined to be so contentious we have no such practice nor do the Churches of God well let me ask a a question uh does Genesis one really teach that because Eve came From Adam's Body that therefore men ought not cover their heads and women should cover their heads when praying or prophesying does that leap out at you when you read Genesis 1 does nature really teach that long hair is a disgrace for a

man and women need long hair as a head covering is that something you you learn from nature in either case for men and women how long is this long hair you know down to the hips the arms the shoulders below The ears how long is the hair that women should have and men can't have uh you know are we talking kind of like you know Fabio length hair what about sha foot what about him you know that that great worship leader and political activists what about his haircut and and here's here's the point I want

to want to make what is natural often means what is normal and that can depend on the cultural situation what is considered natural is often based on how some People and some cultures experience the natural world and one thing I've learned about ethical reasoning whether you're debating stuff inside the church or outside the church everybody wants God the Bible and nature on their side so everyone says well my view is in accordance with nature you I've heard people say communism is natural which is true but I think only for ant colonies I've heard people say

matriarchy is natural well that is true especially for For goats and elephants you know once when I was in the Army we shot a herd of goats and we did it by taking down the nanny goat first so yeah nanny goats are matriarchal patriarchy is natural I've heard that too well yeah true for you know horses and deer I guess but you know everyone wants nature on their side everyone wants nature as uh someone they can appeal to no matter what they're arguing for and that was true in the ancient world as it is even

true in the Modern world but biblical scholar Stanley Stowers he notes this he says when ancients appealed to Nature they often meant that something was appropriate or inappropriate just as today we often use the term without implying a theory of natural law you know when I say as I often do that coffee is a crime against God and nature that's based on my own experience of the world where coffee tastes like satanic diarrhea you know at least to me in the In the world I in I inhabit coffee is something against nature it's so bitter

it's diabolical now now look I know that can be a hard pill to swallow because there's a lot of other passages in the New Testament in Paul's letters that talk about nature ethics and human behavior but appeals to Nature do appear to be culturally contingent because what is natural means what is normal and what is normal varies from culture to culture so in 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul is appealing to Genesis 1 at Adam's priority to provide a creational grounding to address the situation of wives trying to cool their husbands and causing disturbance in the home

or in house churches but just like head coverings and long hair and C Corinth the natural basis for male Authority and the social expression of it is conditioned by the cultural environment because you know there are different types of patriarchy in human societies And many of them look for a rationale in the natural order as they conceive of it now if you don't believe me on that okay then I suggest you take 1 Corinthians 11 a lot more literally and a lot more to heart that means all the men in your worship service need to

have a good Marine Core haircut it means men should not teach or discuss theology wearing baseball caps even doing theology podcasts especially when they're inside and there's no sun or rain which always Baffles me but American men seem to do it when talking theology it also means women should wear heads scares rather like Muslim women do and note what Paul says at the end of 1 Corinthians 11 or in verse 16 he says this to conclude his argument if anyone wants to argue about this we have no other custom nor do the Churches of God

so in the churches across the a that is in in Anatolia as much as in um Macedonia Corinth and those places there Was the one practice of men not having long hair and women wearing head coverings so in that broad helenistic environment what Paul says about head coverings at hair to them appealed simply self-evident it was natural and because it appeared that way Paul uses an argument based on a particular reading of Genesis okay and I think a similar thing is happening in 1 Timothy 2 he's making an appeal to Creation to try to Use

scriptural language what's considered normal and normative to deal with a specific problem related to wives husbands and decorum in the church so that's the creational side what about the pa okay why does Paul focus on Eve being deceived and becoming a transgressor now good thing for Mike Winger he doesn't think women are by Nature gullible or eminently deceivable on account of being women okay he doesn't think women are Inherently gullible so you know good point to Mike Winger for that but Winger does say this he says both creation and the fall push for Paul's policy

on women and Ministry which he believes proves the point that Paul prohibition is transcultural and it's not rooted merely in a specific situation in Ephesus and his point then is that male Authority as a model for pastors exists before and after the fall and to that I've got to say well yeah to a degree I mean Genesis 3 when discussing Eve does point out that she was deceived by the serpent she transgressed the Commandment the Commandment that the Primeval couple had been given in the garden but we all know that's only half the story Adam

is equally culpable for his Disobedience and he is the exemplary transgressor himself and he's the one who's responsible for the fall because he represents all human beings in his own sin it's in Adam that we all die why There no mention of Adam's failure in 1 Timothy 2 well I think Paul is being deliberately selective in highlighting Eve putting the spotlight on her culpability the way she was deceived not because women are inherently gullible but because of the presenting situation in Ephesus the proof of that theory is that other times when Paul tells the story

of the fall and places such as Romans 5 he mentions Adam exclusively you know everyone dies in Adam and Everyone can be made alive in Christ he can he can view the story of the fourth through the prism of Adam as our represent resentative you know the one in whom we are all condemned now the instruction here I don't think it's transcultural because the appeal to Genesis 3 and Eve's error is made in a very specific way Paul's argument a m verse is crafted in a bespoke fashion because there is mention of Eve's deception but

no mention of Adam's Disobedience which means I think it's been tailored to a precise situation where wives I think were being dictator and disruptive and they're doing that in such a way or for such reasons that they themselves have been deceived now I mean if Paul did give an account of Adam and Eve and the fall stating who was responsible for what values that we were all dubed in Eve and we were all condemned in Adam then that might be transcultural but that's not what he Does he focuses on Eve because he wants to focus

on the problematic beh behavior of some women in Ephesus their own error perhaps they embibe some of the false teaching mentioned in various parts of the letter maybe some women are doing things in family and church that amount to what Paul warns about later in one Timothy you know where he says they will pay attention to spirits that deceive and to the teachings of demons or else maybe Eve's culpability Might correspond to certain women in Ephesus still carrying baggage from The aramus Cult and they're bringing that up with their husbands in church like why don't

we do it like we do it in the cult of emis why don't we do things the way we did them in the cult of Apollo maybe they're bringing all their religious baggage up from their time in paganism and they're not listening to the authority of their approved teachers as Eve was deceived so too then would the Ephesian women be deceived which is why they need to stop teaching stop badgering but instead they need to get learned up they need to be silent and sit down and hear from their teachers in which case Paul's highlighting

of Eve's error is expedient for the context but it's not Paul's definitive account of the fall and its meaning so if we take these two points together about creation and the fall what we see is the appeal to the order of creation and Eve's role In the fall does not mean that the prohibitions made a transcultural that is because all appeals to Nature and their application are conditioned by culture we can see that certainly in the case of head coverings and long hair in one Corinthians and Paul's highlighting of Eve's failure rather than Adams is

deliberately selective because of the situation he is addressing where Ephesian women are mistaken and need to be Taught that's the second point now what about the third Point Winger brings up that the prohibition of women teach teing men or having Authority doveet tales with Paul's alleged insistence on the headship of husbands in the home uh look on husbands having authority over wives look that's a separate topic it's too big it's too big to go into we'll have to leave that maybe for another day on my substack I've made a few notes on this on a

few Different blog posts on 1 Corinthians 11 otherwise I recommend Brian Ros and Roy champer one Corinthians commentary Lucy pepi's got a great book Brian Robinson got a good book as well I would say go have a look at them so let's let's go to the fourth point that Winger makes and I think this is a real key one and this is where the real center of gravity is in his claim because if he can prove this point then I think he wins but if we can disprove his fourth point I think he is Definitely

opened up to uh people will be opened up to a whole fresh way of reading 1 Timothy 2 uh Winger's view is the reference to being being saved through childbearing is too obscure to form the basis of any confident assertions about the meaning of the passage and its application Wing says that in verse 15 you know whatever it means it shouldn't determine or guide your interpretation of this passage because it's too obscure he says verse 15 you about wives being safe through childbearing has no straight forward meaning therefore he urges us that no interpretation of

this verse should guide or change your understanding of the obvious meaning of the rest of the passage now Winger stresses that this verse is too obscure and it doesn't matter for how you understand the rest of the passage but let me tell you something obscurity is a matter of context I remember once my wife was Having a conversation with some with some American friends and she said to them you know one of the best things about my new job is I've got really good superannuation and when she said superannuation my uh American interlocutors they were

a little bit mystified so I translated and said 401k or once I said to an American lady I said hey could you put the bicki in the bin and she said uh no I can't and I said why not because she said I have no Idea what you're saying and then I translated in American in my head I said ah rather than put the Bicky in the bin could you please put the cookie in the trash okay sometimes if you you've got to know the inside knowledge I mean I'll tell you a funny story I'm

from Queensland which is basically the Texas of Australia and I arrived in Melbourne which is effectively the Boston of Australia and I got to Ridley College you know my wonderful Anglican College I Love it loved it but when I arrived I got an email which said in case of fire call mfb now my name is Michael Frank bird my initials are mfb and I remember thinking to myself oh I guess I've been uh appointed to take care of fines if they come up so you know I replied back saying sure I can handle a fire

extinguisher okay uh I'm not really qualified to be a firefighter but hey I'll do the best I can uh to which uh The register of the college uh applied with no little bit of hilarity pointing out that mfb in this context doesn't mean Michael Frank bird it means the Melbourne fire brigade now again if you don't live in Melbourne um you wouldn't know that but if you live in Melbourne it's kind of obvious that mfb in the context of fire means Melbourne fire brigade so obscurity is a matter of proximity to the conversation you're reading

same thing like in 1 Corinthians 11 women should wear head coverings because of the Angels you know I've got a few suggestions on that but that that's kind of an inside knowledge conversation now I think that verse verse 15 is based on a Del and clear illusion to The Cult of emis which evacuates the argument that Paul's assertions here his prohibitions have nothing to do with the cult of Artemus Wingers attempt to play Down uh the relevance of Artemis is very much you Know pay pay pay no attention to the man behind the codon or

in this context pay no attention to the massive statue of the lady with the 20 booby things or strange BS now I won't deny that getting that inside knowledge getting that historical background right and trying to understand it can be difficult you know and as a result of the difficulty of identifying the right background to this verse there are a number of different uh Interpretive options for how we understand that and Winger to his to his Merit does a good job of canvasing the various options you know the options include maybe uh she will be

saved through child bearing is a reference to uh Mary as the antitype of Eve who saves all people through the birth of the Messiah you know that what that was is wi admits and points out a very popular view in the early church uh some people argue that save through childbearing Means a woman will be saved if she accepts her vocation as a mother and a homemaker and submits to the divinely instituted order of male Authority that's the patriarchal view which Winger I think rightly rejects but Winger doesn't think understanding verse 15 helps you understand

the prohibition in verse 12 now that I think is completely false because we know for certain not probably not speculatively we know for certain that emus was the goddess of Childbearing that is the Smoking Gun that Paul is appealing to a direct and specific situation in Ephesus that explains why he drops the statement in here about women being saved through childbearing it it's it's not random it's not just illustratively or illustrative of the fact that Mary's going to give birth to the Messiah it makes a lot of sense in Ephesus and in the vicinity of

the cult of Ephesus now for me what was so frustrating is Winger Seems to know this he lays out the evidence for Diana emus as the protector of birthing woman but then he strangely dismisses it his major objection is that the the verb Soo you know for saved it normally means full salvation not the pre preservation of one's life from danger and Poor's letters and while that's true the semantic range of Soo can mean Health healing rescue preservation of life and and it works in the context of a woman being preserved Through childbirth I mean

if you were talking about a woman being saved childbirth what other word would you use well you wouldn't okay so it makes perfect sense for this and this is this is how Sandra Sandra glan puts it and I think she's absolutely dead right she says Paul was assuring his Protege Timothy that believing Ephesian women did not need the goddess emus of Midwifery rather a woman who was converted from worshiping emus to Following Jesus would be saved you know delivered safely assuming that she lived for Christ now you've got to remember that many women probably had

a big anxiety if they abandon the worship of emis if they become a Christian who's going to look after them when they're going through child birth cuz child birth was very dangerous that was a fairly High mortality rate for giving birth so I think this would have Been a real issue for women in Ephesus if they abandon the culture of emus who's going to protect them when they go through the travails the ordeal of childbirth it makes sense that Paul is saying that Christ not emus is your protector your provider the one who C who

cares for you in life in as much as death now on that and this is a point that Winger does note the conditional Clause if can seem problematic if it perhaps implies that if a woman dies in Labor it was because she or her husband were not good or holy enough I I do think that is a genuine problem but it's the same problem when we deal with like the connections that's sometimes made in scripture between sin and sickness or between sin and death or when people says when Paul says people who gauge in fornication

jealousy rivalry anger and more will not enter the kingdom of God I don't think Paul is laying down an absolute law about you know the kind of You know if you do this then this will always happen and that kind of a thing I think he understands God's providential care and the realities of life and death are a bit more complex than that but this is an exhortation that would have been persuasive in Ephesus calling on wives and husbands to look to Jesus not emis to protect them in all aspects of life including childbirth and

calling them to live a Godly life well that in a nutshell is my response to Mike wing is Reading of 1 Timothy 2 11-15 I've tried to break down his four points and go through them and offer a bit of a reputation uh I haven't really done the point on wives and husbands and and that kind of a thing that's such a big topic I have to leave it for another day but the House Church context for 1 Timothy 2 I I think it's I think it overlaps with the husband and wife context the idea

that this is rooted in creation therefore it's always normative It's just more complex than that and when Paul tells the story of Eve I think he's deliberately selective he tells one part of the story with an emphasis on evees failure her deception because some women I think have being deceived into bringing dubious or dodgy things into the church and maybe being a bit dictatorial about them I've also tried to show that verse 15 is not the optional chips and dips it's not the garnish you get with the meal that Paul Serves up it's got a

key function in the argument that men and women should look to Jesus not emus now speaking of emus what does 1 Timothy 2 look like if we read it in Ephesus in the shadow of the adamian in light of this goddess this well-known goddess arimus of the Ephesians now recently just a couple of months ago I had the pleasure of going going to Turkey uh going to Ephesus and seeing you know all of the archaeological remains seeing the you Know ruins of various temples the great Amphitheater the library of kelsus it was amazing and obviously

what dominates much of Ephesus was the worship of the Goddess emis now I got myself a little statue in the gift shop there paid a uh an exuberant M amount of money I mean seriously the uh the wealth of of crous probably was needed to do this and you know and if you look at the Statue you can see all these s like bble objects on there and um Scholars debate what they Are you know are they breasts well I mean one of the earliest interpretations we get from talian suggests that they are but there's

no nipples or areolas maybe their eggs maybe their balls testicles uh maybe their gift bags maybe they magic bags you know there's all sorts of things and in terms of of what those B are uh well to quote Nate baratti impersonating George Washington nobody knows you know I feel like we should know and yet we do not anyway in Some ways emus was a mysterious goddess but what does Paul's argument he that he lays out in 1 Timothy 2 look like if you were living in first century emis where the religious landscape is polytheistic it's

Pagan but but it's dominated by The Cult of emis okay and here I need to give some props first of all to my own Dr V Rick strin who wrote the book Paul emus and the Ephesians that was you know my entree into this discussion about emis and her relevance to Paul's Ministry there's of course the book by Sandra glan nobody's mother which I love you should get that book it is brilliant uh it really it goes through the primary sources I really do recommend that book there's also Gary hoag's book wealth in ancient Ephesus

and the first letter to Timothy and Marge mosco's blog that's filled with great information as well and here's what I find on complementarian readings of 1 Timothy 2 they want to completely disengage it From the context in Ephesus or just make it so it applies to anywhere and everywhere in the Greco Roman world so it it doesn't have a a a a precise or a scandalous par particularity I mean it's just stuff that's generally true anywhere and everywhere it has a Timeless quality to it for instance Tom Shriner Tom the prince of exites Shriner I

mean Tom Shriner is so great they should build shrines to him at Southern Seminary and take relics of him there I Mean Tom shrin is great but Tom Tom says this he says there is no clear evidence in Paul's letters that the emis cult played a role Paul does not mention the cult nor is there any specific notion in the text that shows the influence of the cult and Mike Winger spends 19 minutes trying to explain why the arimus cult does not matter for understanding 1 Timothy 2 in fact he says it is demonstrably wrong

to read the aramus cult in 1 Timothy 2 that makes no sense To me for a for a variety of reasons first read Acts 19 you know that's about Paul's Ministry in Ephesus and the cult of emis was a big deal it affected the events of Paul's Ministry in Ephesus there was a mob in Ephesus that wanted to Lynch Paul because he was destroying the businesses of people who made Idols of the Goddess people who accused Paul of dishonoring the Great Goddess emus so yeah the emus cult did affect Paul's Ministry in Ephesus and even

Winger Admits that Ephesus was like the Vatican or Mecca of emus and he actually gives it a fairly good exposition of its significance for Ephesus but then he says it's got no significance or meaning or application for understanding one Timothy 2 that that that part of his argument just kind of baffles me uh second look you cannot interpret Paul's letters in a vacuum or flatten out the distinctives of the Ephesian context by saying look you know Ephesians was His letter to someone in Ephesus which just saying the sort of stuff you'd say anywhere in Greco

Roman society you know Ephesus Corinth ases Athens Asos um Athens it's all the same it's all the same uh no it's not well there's some things that might be true everywhere nowhere is like everywhere each place has its own atmosphere and complexities I know this cuz I've been to America I mean people like to generalize about Americans like you know all Americans We all know what all American Christians are like you know all all people in America basically the same well they're not I mean the religious Ambience of Massachusetts you know Massachusetts is Heaven for

people who don't believe in heaven uh is very different from the religious atmosphere of Texas where Jesus has his own line of AR-15s at Walmart you know that kind of that kind of a thing you know nowhere is like everywhere okay so Ephesus can have its Own special things its own themes its own motives its own specific ambients and atmosphere I would also point out that Michael imor has written a whole thesis on the emis cult as the background to the letter to the Ephesians his book is called Ephesus and emis the cult of the

Great Goddess and Ephesus as the Epistles context now imor finds a massive amount of similar Ares in the language of Paul's letter to the Ephesians and inscriptions and coins in Ephesus about emus he also notes the relationship of emis to Mysteries and Magic again very relevant for understanding Ephesians and imor thinks Ephesians may have been written for converts from the aramus cult if im Andorra is even partially right then why not think that arimus provides the background not only to Ephesians but to one Timothy which is addressed to Timothy in Ephesus okay and and let

me say too and This is important situating this passage in relation to the emis cult is not the attempt to undo what Paul plainly says it's not the case of you know Paul says I do not permit a woman to teach or hold Authority and then I go I'm playing my emis call card which kind of nullifies everything you said it's not like you know game of Uno where you lay down that card and then you kind of reverse the order or it's not like I'm saying the power of artamus compels you or or Something

absurd like that I'm I'm not claiming that appealing to the emis cult is a way of negating the fact that Paul is making a Prohibition about women teaching and having Authority I mean this this this reference this need to get into the background it's not as Winger says a secret nosis about um historical knowledge of the past neither is it a fabricated history as he alleges that's his words by the way the connection to Artemis does not change The fact that Paul does make a Prohibition about a woman teaching a man however we understand that

whether that's Universal or it's more General whether it's husbands or wives a real prohibition about women teaching something and having some kind of authority is mailed a real restriction is made on these women with argumentation to back it up rooted in Genesis and talking about things that are powerful and meaningful and this Prohibition was urgent at the important I'm not denying that rather the egalitarian point is that correctly grasping the socio religious context of Ephesus dominated as it was by the emus cult explains the prohibition about a woman teaching in its price precise context it

also accounts for the Department much of this from the rest of Paul's letters Paul nowhere else makes this uh prohibition and it ensures that we do not apply the prohibition in ways For which it was not intended which is to say that the where and the why is important for understanding how we apply it today okay I'm not trying to use historical background to get around the prohibition that Paul says I'm trying to understand the prohibition of these women teaching and holding Authority in the way it was intended for the purposes it was intended so

we can apply it properly today now against Winger and friends I want to defend the relevance Of the emus cult for understanding 1 Timothy 2 but this is where I do have to make an opening admission against many egalitarians many galarian scholars the emis C was not a hyper feminist cult it was not a fertility religion emus was not a Divine mother it was not a cult run by females only it had men involved in it they were called the cetes and Winger talks a lot about them my doct V Rick strell and he says

this The Cult of Artemis was fundamentally a cult of the Female for both male and female in fact wing it does a pretty good job of showing how inexact sloppy and sometimes careless egalitarian Scholars can be in making gross generalizations and mischaracterizations about Artemis and it's it's worse cuz some of them are my good friends uh people have made assumptions recycled the same footnotes without checking them without going back to the primary Sources that said women did play a prominent part in the emis cult and emis was particularly popular with women because was the goddess

of Midwifery childbirth and virginity Yan bremma very important scholar in the in the uh the study of ancient religion the Greco Roman World bremma observes that in the first and 2 centuries ad there is more epigraphical testimonies regarding artemis' priestesses than her priests it seems likely that in the course of time Most male Aristocrats shifted their interest to the Imperial priesthoods even though aramis's priesthood must must have long remained prestigious due to its venerable age and wealth so who is emis when she's not busy being a goddess or the subject of exegetical debates between Mike

Bird and Mike Winger let me give you a brief bio of the emis cult the C Cult of emis existed since at least the 4th Century BC to the 3r century ad all the way through to the Persian Greek and Roman periods in the Artemis myth emis was the virgin da of Zeus and Leto after seeing her mother Leto go through a painful 9 days of labor for her brother Apollo she asked Zeus for permission to remain an eternal virgin and to roam about helping women in childbirth that is why adamus is associated with child

bird as well as Midwifery and women may have prayed something along the lines as you know goddess give me a good birth or a quick Death the city of Ephesus was the temple Warden of the goddess emis uh but over 50 cities in Asia Minor put images of emis on their coins there were statues built uh to emus During the helenistic period She was known as emus the savior in particular she was identified with the Roman Goddess Diana and the Egyptian goddess Isis leading to kind of hybrid uh narratives and eclectic rights of Devotion to

her in various parts of the Eastern Mediterranean the arisian the Massive Temple complex was to Ephesus perhaps what Disneyland was to an in La the aramian was one of the largest buildings in the Mediterranean world even bigger than the Athenian panon it was one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World the Artesian was also the center of religious social economic and political life in Ephesus adamus provided the sacred reality in which residents of the city lived as the goddess was the patron and protector of The city which is why it's very easy to whip

a mob who could chant for two as great as emis of the Ephesians there was normally a bi-weekly ceremonial procession from the temple into Ephesus aramis's birthday was celebrated on the 6th of May every year to um celebrate the goddess's birth and it was an act not just of piety but also of patriotism in Ephesus by the first century the Roman Imperial officials had done everything they could to restore their Revenues and rights to emus even as they regulated worship of the goddess in integrated it into the official Pantheon of religions including the Imperial cult

so the idea was there to make sure that the worship of adomus was in sync with the religious policies of the white empire particularly when Augustus took over as the uh leading man of the Empire and that's why you can find something like a basilica in Ephesus dedicated to emus Augustus and tiberious in the first Century so what does this mean for the Christians in Ephesus will again to quote strin in the first century Christians me a deity aramus whose beneficent and protective power was experienced and appreciated by many in Ephesus and whose temple in

its sheer Beauty and Grandeur symbolized her presence but how does the emus cult help us make sense of 1 Timothy 28-15 well that's what I'm going to explain now well if you look at verse 9 With its prohibition about women wearing elaborate hairstyle gold pearls or expensive clothes you'll see it's quite relevant now there are exhortations against women wearing outlandish displays of wealth apparel and cosmetics in many biblical passages I think you know certain places in Proverbs speak a lot about it uh also there were the New Roman women who were allegedly dressed more extravagantly

and they were somewhat in congruent in their social Etiquette and behavior which a lot of male Roman writers complain about but the problem of overly decorative clothing and apparel was particularly acute in Ephesus where participants of the cult habitually dressed in extravagant fashion what is interesting is that if you read an ancient romance novel called aasca set in Ephesus written by zenfan of Ephesus in the first century it describes in detail what A procession in the temple of emus Looks like now Winger actually mentions this book but he doesn't give the reading from the text

so let me give the reading for you okay this is one of the opening scenes of the book it says a local festival for emis was underway and from the city to her Shrine a distance of seven stades all the local girls had to March sumptuously adorned and then we're told heading the line of girls was anthia daughter of Megam medes and aipe locals ania's Beauty was marvelous and fast Sur past the other girls she was 14 her body was blooming with shapeliness and the adornment of her dress enhanced her grace her hair was blonde

mostly loose only little of it braided and moving as the breezes took it her eyes were vivacious bright like a Beauty's but forbidding like a Chase girl's her clothing was a belted purple tunic knee length and falling loose over the arms and over it a fawnn skin with a quiver Attached arrows javelins in hand dogs following behind often when seeing her at The Shrine the Ephesians worshiped her as emis so also at the sight of her on this occasion the crowd cheered the opinions of the spectators were various some in their astonishment declaring that she

was the goddess herself was or the go goddess was someone else or she was someone passioned by the goddess but all of them prayed bowed down and congratulated her parents and the Universal cry Among The Spectators was antheia the beautiful uh what this means is that Paul is not just calling for modest dress in verse 9 like you might find in the The Book of Proverbs uh what he's saying are words to the effect that women shouldn't show off their ostentatious bling their luscious extravagant clothing they should not dress like the priestesses and participants in

the emis cult I also Want to add another story I came across in the much later and apocryphal acts of Paul this is you know written in the 2 century and it's about Paul's Ministry and some of the things that happened to him uh in the acts of Paul Paul encounters an Ephesian woman named artam Miller you know iller I think that's you know symbolic for Artemus and Paul tells her set aside your jewelry finery your fine clothing do not trust in beauty or riches and instead put your hope in God Who gives freedom and

forgive sins now that story of Paul meeting an Ephesian woman called artam Miller and telling her effectively to repent of her love of Fine Jewelry and fashion and to find Hope in Christ you could call that you know perhaps a parable of the Christian response to women involved in the cult of Aram I think it's a very interesting story and it's very uh it's very illustrative of I think how important dress was for Women in the cult of emis and women would either even try to look like the goddess herself now Paul also says that

about the women they should make themselves attractive by doing good which is appropriate for women who claim to honor God in effect you honor God the Father not by fashion but by faithful action not by dress but by good deeds and again that sounds very relevant to the women living in Ephesus moving down to verse 11 a wife Or woman is to learn quietly with full submission hey look here I'm glad to see that most complimentarily acknowledge here that women need to be taught and they are worth teaching also many note that the silence is

not absolute it just pertains to the period of instruction you know and when you're being taught something it's never a good idea to make a fusser a lot of noise uh Bob yabra who's the you know the Ron Swanson of biblical Studies if you ask me Bob yra says Paul is not uh issuing men a cart blanch to demand woman's wordless compliance at least in church matters and perhaps in all of life it only pertains to the period of instruction where the silence is required apply to the local context of Ephesus a wife or a

woman readed on the emis cult or the poly IC context in general needs to be a good disciple and learn from her teachers and you got to remember that when a person converts From you know polytheism to Christianity uh they don't get the total package of theology all than one hit as if the nce in Creed or Westminster Confession was downloaded into their brain I mean new new converts often engage in initial enthusiasm some kind of transfer of allegiances and they know some of the basic theological facts of Christianity but they often start out with

a kind of default syncretism between their old way of life and their new way of life until They defrag their mind from paganism become more consistent and thoroughgoing in their Christian beliefs so these women immersed in the Theology and culture of the emus cult and Ephesian polytheism in general they needed to be taught they needed to submit to the instruction of their teachers now our egalitarian and more authoritarian culture doesn't like submission uh but you really should submit to your teachers if they're teaching you Important stuff like CPR or how to drive or how to

get saved or how to read the Bible better or how to grow in Holiness there's a time for you know causing bit of a Ruckus and there's a time where you should be silent learn and listen I like how tabilo and Ray put it they say the call then is not for total Silence from women but for them to exhibit a peaceful and gentle attitude in their learning or else is the NIV Readers version glosses it somewhat paraphasic I Ally it says When a woman is learning she should be quiet she should follow her leaders

in every way that brings us to verse 12 I don't allow a wife or woman to teach or to control her husband or to exercise authority over a man instead she should be a quiet listener well this is the main event this is what we've all been waiting for and I I love what Christopher Hudson says he says this verse is the Slender column that supports the entire stained Glass ceiling above which women are not allowed to rise in many churches uh but to begin with I have to start out by debunking a bad argument

that uh galarian sometimes make uh even some of the most learned of Scholars I think overread the present tense of epit trepo I allow or I permit as if Paul says I am not now or not currently permitting a woman to teach or to have a Authority but you know maybe I'll do it later on uh arguments based on tense Form are usually spurious and so is that one the vast majority of present imperative verbs are not temporary commands or prohibition it's a bad argument people should stop doing it but the question is what type

of authority is being exercised uh is holding Authority in teach one or two activities and why do the women have to be quiet uh in particular you have to ask what Authority is exercised and that comes down to the meaning of the word authent You know is the verb there to have authority to have bad Authority is is it a positive on neutral world or or is it negative for something like domineer and dictate and I got to tell you oh man the um the books the articles on this the technical studies of Greek language

this is this is deep epic Uber Greek bible nerd stuff I mean this is this is really deep stuff in fact if you go to Michael Winger's video the most replayed part of his video is the stuff he does on this Word authent and I'll be honest with you I'm not going to do 20 hours of analysis on lexs and semantic domains and go through every possible parallel but I'm I'm going to make some Salient points that I think will guide us come to a reasonable conclusion that makes sense and hopefully is coherent and compar

okay here's the first thing I want to say there are lies there are damnable lies and then there are word studies Word studies can often be filled with a flock of flying fallacies and I'm sure you've all heard the one about you know the Greek word dunamus I mean it means power that's where we get the word Dynamite so when Paul says dunamus he means Dynamite power mother of all fallacies uh no word has a singular meaning because words change over time words can have a range of notations lexicography is the uh science of of

studying words learning how a word Appears to function in a given context and mapping the various significations a word can have also the word orento is a hapax legoma this is the only place in the New Testament where it appears it's it's a rare word it's not used a lot um prior to the time of Paul and it's actually not used a lot outside of of of U people quoting the uh the text of one Timothy I mean it's it's there a bit but it's not you know rainning orento everywhere um the other thing I

have to Say is that if Paul wanted to use a more neutral or an easier term for Authority he could have simply used exusia as he does in 1 Corinthians 10 uh sorry 1 Corinthians 11:10 you know if if Paul wanted to use a simple word exusia he could have just you know used that as he does in 1 Corinthians 11:10 where he is talking about men women Authority head coverings Adam Eve Genesis you know if he just wanted a simple straightforward Word for Authority that everyone knew the meaning of he could have used exusia

but Paul uses a different word in 1 Timothy 2:12 because he wants to make a different point remember that Paul uses a different word CU I think he wants to make a different point and in context of one Timothy to 12 authent is the opposite of remain quiet now wing I think is wrong to contrast verse 12 with verse 11 you know he thinks that learn in submission is the opposite of uh have Authority and teach but the actual contrast is given within verse 12 it itself rather than you know teach and have Authority or

you know dispute and dominer whatever we mean by that rather than you know teach and have authority a woman is to remain quiet that's where the contrast comes from so a a wife or a woman is to remain quiet rather than to engage in this other activity rather than to engage in authent and and what's the opposite of Remain quiet maybe it's something like bossy and boisterous uh I also have to point out that if you look at some of the first English language translations of 1 Timothy 2 they are very interesting you know the

Old King James which is you know non- egalitarian uh it renders this this text as a woman should not assur authority over the man which is clearly a negative meaning for orento and if you go back even earlier why Cliff's Translation is that a woman should uh is to neither have lordship on the husband and for wickliff um lordship is always negative okay so some of our earliest English translations uh made on the theme of a negative meaning of this text now if you also go through some of the major lexans like bag brag Luan

neita the Dell Scott Jones you can find them all on logos or in other places they tend to think that this word has some sort of meaning of absolute Authority or abusive Authority and I also have to tell you that a lot of lexans point out that the nominal cognate like the noun version authent can also be used in relation to murder now just just imagine this for a second imagine you're at the office and a guy says um hey everyone I just got off the phone with corporate they're sending in a guy called uh

Steve he's going to be our new let me just check notes our new authent and when he gets Here he's going to authent um the whole um the whole office so someone said what does that mean and then the guy says well it could mean that he's been appointed to take charge and he will manage the office in a responsible and even-handed fashion or it could mean he's going to murder everyone in the building you know I guess we'll just have to see what what happens when he gets here but the important thing is we

make sure that Steve has a nice warm welcome when he arrives in SC um the fact that word can mean something akin to murder means it's probably a negative word okay it's probably a negative word now context will always be king but I think this this word you're on the front foot that this word is negative uh Cynthia long Westfall offers this conclusion I think this this is right in the Greek Corpus the verb authent Tara refers to a range of actions that are not restricted to Murder or violence however the people who are targets

of these actions are harmed forced against their will compelled or at least their self-interest is being overridden because the actions involve an imposition of the subjects will ranging from dishonor to lethal Force now people look for parallels in all sorts of places from astrology to zoology but the best parallels are the ones which seems to have a similar usage In a similar context like a household or a house Church uh there there is a passage in John cram's commentaries on uh Colossians or his homes on Colossians where he says husbands do not be despotic or

domineer orente the wife which which I think is is very relevant because it's a house context similar to 1 Timothy 2 but what I think is the closest analog for Paul's usage of authent Teran 1 Timothy 2 is something we find in pseudo hippo's fragments okay Let let me let me read the fragment to you and I I found this very interesting I thought now this this is not the key that unlocks it but this is the closest like for like I think I've been able to find okay looking at a kind of a household

or a house Church context this is this is this is how hippol litis thinks it's going to go down in the last days wherefore all shall walk after their own will and the children will lay hands on their parents the wife will Give up her own husband to death and the husband will bring his own wife to judgment like a criminal Masters will Lord it over their slaves savagely and that's where uses a a um the future tense of orent and in Latin that's the the word inuman it says slaves will assume an unruly demeanor

towards their masters now pseudo hippolytus is warning that in the last days Masters will authent their slaves very severely and the Latin textt Probably a translation of the Greek says Masters will be inhumane to their slaves I think that's that's that's a good parallel okay it's again it's not a magical key that unlocks the meaning of one Timothy 2 but it's a good analog so much like one Timothy 2 and similar to the New Testament household codes the hippol lighten text here assumes a household context where this authent is going down and it's very bad

for slaves now like I Said we can all go out and get our favorite parallels turn them into snowballs and throw them at each other but I'm pretty convinced that authent Tero and cognates are negative for the most part even if there's going to be the odd exception so here's my conclusion about orento orento is not just to have authority but an intensified sense of authority to have absolute authority to assur authority to domineer dominate with authority and to Even abuse authority now the Artesian cult was also a context where Civic rivalries were played out

as women sought positions of status and honor in the cultivat this is where I'm going to try to apply how authent might even have a further uh relevance how it might even been magnified in the Ephesian context in the Artesian cult that that's the place where religion was an instrument in the pursuit of civil power I mean to have rank in the Artemis cult was to Have social status in the city of Ephesus women could compete to become the pranis which is a lurgical and Civic appointment that was similar Clint says to becoming mayor of

a city and this office holder presided over the Town Council it's possible that uh people including the women there especially the women try to authent their way to the ascendancy in the emis cult and other local Cults as well there are inscriptions about women celebrating the Fact that they became the pranis of the city so so imagine something like a TV show called you know the Artesian version of succession or the real priestesses of Ephesus where women are fighting to become the number one Priestess or the pranis in Ephesus okay yeah we know it's not

a feminist cult it's not a womenonly cult men are involved and people can be involved in more than one cult at the same time but if that same Spirit of rivalry in the Anmian and then that same habit of bossing about inferiors is played out in a home or in the church how might Paul correct it probably the way he does in 1 Timothy 21-15 okay the next thing we've got to talk about is is holding Authority exercising Authority in teaching one and the same possible then that orento and dasco are a hen aay two

words combined into a single idea or else that sering Authority is extended into the type of Teaching performed or the the way the teaching is being done maybe it's a single domineering d D actic activity and look I know normally teach refers to Apostolic instructions or handing on Traditions but given the negative sense of authent and its pairing with dasco plus the emphasis on false teachings across one Timothy I take the Clause as meaning that a wife should not attempt to dominate her husband with jubia teaching the closest analogy we have Comes from Revelation 220

where John the sea admonishes the Church of thyra because they allow the false prophetess Jezebel to teach and to mislead my servants clearly two negative things brought together otherwise what a wife should do is the opposite of domineering her husband with horrible heresy or dubious doctrines instead she should listen and learn I think that means she should detox from emis and polytheism learn to discern good and bad teachings And get wisely discipled let's go down to verse 13 for Adam was formed first then Eve and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and

transgressed now I've already noted the complications and appealing to the nature uh or the creational order for an alleged transcultural command and I've said Paul selectively focuses on Eve's deception because the women in Ephesus themselves were deceived and had not decluttered Their minds from the emus C or from the UN wholesome religious influences in polytheistic Ephesus I mean one thing I should note this is something of a sidebar uh but emus did have a bit of a rivalry with her brother Apollo and emus was technically the first born now I'll be honest I don't think

we should make too much of that but in the Artesian um cult emus was born first therefore she she may have had or deserve more preeminence than Apollo but I think Michael Wing is right on this it's not an alternative creation story it does not mean the Artemis cult was about the superiority of women over men plus there was no problem worshiping both emus and Apollo I mean they they they were not mutually exclusive Cults but maybe the the reference to Adam's priority is done because it maybe mirrors artemis's priority over Apollo that maybe that's

why Paul uses the argument of primogeniture because it's an argument That had currency in Ephesus because everyone knew that emus was born before uh Apollo but even then I fully admit when Paul talks about Eve he's doing it more in in the sense of a type of typology that her deception mirrors the deception of some of the women in Ephesus and finally that brings us down to verse 15 but she a wife will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith love and Holiness with good sense aramus was often celebrated with titles Like first

Throne Queen of the cosmos Lord and Savior savior in the sense that she would answer the prayers of petitioners especially women in labor either for a painless birth or a quick death and I think Paul is saying look emus is not your savior Jesus is Christian women have Jesus not emus as their protector and their Patron deity in childbirth um as sandre glan puts out this would have been very important for women converting to Christianity who Would have wondered who now is going to protect me in child birth if they've abandoned Artemis who's going to

look after them and Paul is saying Jesus is with you in life and death what is more the they you know they if they continue in love Holiness and good sense I think that they is not the women in the Ephesian church it's more likely husbands and wives together they will experience this this Deliverance this rescue if they engage in what the Ancients called UIA which is piety uh the virtues of Christian Living listed here is Faith love and Holiness so that is my reading of 1 Timothy 2 where I've tried to go through the

very various aspects the various verses and how it would have been understood by its original recipients what does it mean to read 1 Timothy 2 in Ephesus and as I've said you can't extracted from its local context you can't turn it into a Timeless treaties About men and women when this text like all texts is historically situated now I haven't tried to use the Cult of emis as a kind of magical Talisman to get around Paul's prohibition Paul does make a Prohibition he does tell his women he doesn't want them teaching domineering pushing any dubious

ideas he doesn't want them to have authority over their husbands for the reasons I've laid out okay but I've tried to say that is related to a particular context which is Why we don't find a similar prohibition anywhere else in Paul's letters and why it has some unusual specificities like using the word authent why he appeals to you know women being able to be saved through childbirth why he makes such an energetic remarks about women not wearing too much bling or extravagant apparel I think it is rooted in the ancient context of Ephesus and that's

not to get around what Paul says it's to understand what Paul says and how we can Apply it but look some people will say look you know even if arus is in the background I mean you can find versions of aremis anywhere there's goddesses there's polytheistic religion everywhere in the Empire so Paul is just saying to the Ephesians what he'd say to women anywhere where there are temples or religious associations anywhere where women want to participate and Lead now that might be a little bit true given the parallels say between 1 Corinthians 11 and 1

Timothy 2 both are about husbands wives Authority and decorum in the house churches but there's a degree of specificity as I've laid out in 1 Timothy 2 that I think is simply hard to dismiss so I want you to do an exercise with me I want you to imagine okay imagine I Mike Bird the Apostle of Evangelical feminism to the churches of America imagine if I wrote a letter to an American Church saying this saying hey ladies when it's game time that your Husband enjoy the contest don't interrupt him with your plans to redo the

kitchen I do not permit wives to be a Commander instead remember your husband is your commander when the kickoff starts now if I wrote that letter to a church in Washington DC where they have a local team called the Washington commanders you can see the illusion I'm making I'm not saying that men are literally the commanders in all sports for all time and women can never Lead in sports either as fans or players I'm making I'm making a play on words that possesses a particular resonance with a particular audience now someone you know might read

that letter and say but Sports and football are played everywhere so Apostle Mike meant that men are commanders over all women in all sports and the women cannot be the captain of any sporting team where men are present you know so you can't play you know mixed tennis where the woman is The team captain or something like that well that would be an interpretation of what I said that's not what I meant I was making a play the word Commander because I'm you know writing to a church in Washington now look I know all the

analogies break down but but I think at the points a good one if you miss the local illusion you can go wrong and infer too much from what is said otherwise go commanders uh okay look now I know why Mike Winger spent 11 hours uh On this this this chapter you know it's a there's a lot to do here I don't know we'll be up to one or two hours uh this hasn't been a word by word reputation but I've tried to address his views the right and the wrong and I've tried to offer an

alternative interpretation that respects the authority of the biblical text but makes sense of how this text would have been understood in Ephesus again don't think of 1 Timothy 2 in light of the Council of biblical manhood And Womanhood think of 1 Timothy 2 in light of Acts 19 think of 1 Timothy 2 in light of Paul's letter to the Ephesians think of 1 Timothy 2 in light of you know that novel I read about the ephas you know think of it in in that context in that world put our modern culture wars and debates about

gender and this and that aside what does it mean to read one Timothy on the ground in Ephesus and I I've tried to do this in such a way is that we get inside the text pay Attention to the various details and its nuances and see how it's applicable for us today so let me ask you who are you convinced by now maybe you've watched Mike Winger's videos and now you're watching this one so let me ask you are you on team Winger or you're on team bird or do you have some questions or are

you at least AR aroused in your curiosity let us know in the questions below but let me try to finish on a note of agreement okay something where I Think Mike Winger and I will agree on about advancing the the women uh the ministry of women uh I have a former student uh who's a young woman who's been doing University Ministry for several years she's led a team of students mostly on her own uh she's a fantastic teacher preacher a great mentor of students but now a male University worker has arrived you know has been

sent out to where she is and although he is less experienced in University Ministry than her she has to relinquish all leadership and teaching responsibility to him because a male is now on the scene to take control of things now I'll be honest with you that really irks me uh a lot because I know this Christian woman is incredibly gifted and godly but she now has to take a back seat uh in teaching and leading because a male is on the scene now I don't know what your views are of Christian marriage or one Timothy

2 but I don't think that benching this woman from her fruitful Ministry is what Paul would have wanted if he was here and in fact quite the opposite I think Paul would be very proud of her and encourage her to fulfill her Ministry in the Lord and on this topic I'm pretty sure Mike Winger would agree with me that women should not be prohibited from engaging in in University Ministry you know you know teaching preaching mentoring students and maybe we just need to focus More on encouraging and celebrating women in Ministry rather than focusing on

the things we think women should be prohibited from doing now that's something you've got to focus on in the precincts of your own conscience your own denomination but the emphasis should always be how do we Empower women to Ministry the focus should not be on what are all the things women can't do and the focus should not be on men having power over women I think renewal will Come in the churches when instead of seeking power over women men want to empower women for the Ministries to which the Holy Spirit has called them and there

my friends endeth the lesson uh all I can say is uh if you're still with me after that I'd love to love to hear what you think you can find some similar videos around around the channel so let me finish off with the Australian benediction um wherever you go May the Kangaroo roam free and the VIN might be fresh so go in peace to love and serve the Lord take care until next time hope to see you somewhere around the channel