Coming up in this episode on follow him he has this dream one night where he's accompanied by a guide in his dream and he's in this Barren Wasteland he's walking he has this conversation with his guide where in essence the guide says this represents the world and the fact that the fullness of the truths of the Gospel are not found currently on the Earth but continue walking and you'll find a large log where there will Be a box hello everyone welcome to another episode of follow him my name is Hank Smith and I am your
host I am here with my co-host John by the way John I'm going to describe you this way you are a disturber and an annoyer of Satan's kingdom wow I know I Disturbed and annoyed my mother's laundry room back in the day but this is a bit bigger that's from Jilla Smith history 1 verse 20 Jilla Smith says I think Satan is aware That I annoy him and I disturb him John this week we have a good friend with us Dr mlan Huard mlan welcome to follow him I'm so happy to be here we should
say welcome back mlan was with us a couple years ago as we talked a couple of sections of the doctrine covenants John this is a huge lesson this is a critical lesson lesson tell me when you think of the first Vision John and then mlan wats ask you what comes to mind first I just wonder especially from A theological point of view what are some of the most important events that have happened on the planet this is got to be on the list this is why are we sitting here we can trace it back to
this and I love the fact we can trace it back to a teenage boy that's pretty impressive too mlan I know you've spent a lot of time studying this even before of course I asked you to come on the show as you look ahead to today what are you hoping Happens I hope that we can see some larger narratives that begin in this moment but then carry us into today I hope that we can learn how to accurately and honestly utilize this narrative to strengthen us but then also some false assumptions that we have maybe
unknowingly absorbed through this story more than anything just like Joseph I hope that God can speak to each of us individually as we have this dialogue The First Vision is this moment where Joseph becomes converted to a God who is involved in his life I'm hoping that all of us have that same experience where as we think carefully we can feel a god Who's involved right now with us doing doing what we're doing trying to raise kids trying to raise ourselves trying to become disciples Covenant Keepers children of God like he would want us to
be oh I love it I just imagine that Morning where he thinks I'm GNA go out and say a prayer and maybe something spiritual will happen right maybe I'll get an answer to my prayer and ushers in a new dispens this journey has started years before years before how many moments did he have where he hoped that what he was doing would call down the powers of Heaven the answer didn't come and then as he walks into the Grove it makes me wonder where he's like well I've tried So many things I've talked to my
ministers I've gone to the Bible I've gone to all these different spaces now I'm going into the woods where I've been so many times I guess maybe I'll pray vocally try that out me I got nothing to lose our friend Steve Harper who I'm sure will quote a couple of times today yeah he's a teenage boy feeling convicted of his sins he said that's me I've been there we've all been a teenager feeling convicted of our sins What do I do I'm going to read from the come follow me manual we love the come follow
me Emanuel here at follow him and then mlan John and I are excited to learn from you here's what what it says the lesson is called I saw a pillar of light you might say the Doctrine and Covenants is a book of answers to prayers many of the Sacred revelations in this book came in response to questions the question that began at all the one that sparked the Latter-Day Outpouring of Revelation was asked by a 14-year-old boy a war of words and a tumults of opinions had left Joseph Smith confused about religion and his relationship
with God perhaps you can relate to that we find many conflicting ideas and persuasive voices in our day when we want to sort through these messages and find truth we can do what Joseph did we can ask questions study the scriptures Ponder and ultimately ask God in response to Joseph's prayer a Pillar of light descended from Heaven God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared and answered his questions Joseph's testimony of that miraculous experience boldly declares that anyone who lacks wisdom might ask of God and obtain we can all receive if not a heavenly vision at
least a clearer vision illuminated by Heavenly light wow wow that'll spark your excitement to dive into this story so with that mlan where do you want to take us our listeners are excited to Learn from you with that introduction it seems like we really ought to talk about this revelatory moment a lot of what we have used the first vision for in our day has been how do we learn from God what truths do we learn from God that's a really fruitful field to spend a little bit of time in and I think we can
highlight a few things that really help emphasize some of the elements that lead to answers from God one of the things that I think is really powerful is time He spends potentially years the 18 32 account mentions that he's 12 when he starts this investigation this could be years of him asking this one particular question and then in the account in our own scriptures we know that he's going to the Bible and it gets to the point where he actually loses some confidence in the Bible verse 11 while I was laboring that's a really powerful
word you want answers to questions from God laboring Might be what happens while I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contest of these parties of religionist I was one day reading the Epistle of James 1 chapter and fifth verse if any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God we know that he has attended different meetings different Church meetings he's talked to ministers he's gotten advice from individuals he also seems to be receptive to the experiences of his Family then he's left with this idea that how to act I did not
know some of those elements here are really really powerful just thinking what helps me to get Revelation what helps me to connect with Heaven if we were to list some of those outside individuals helping scripture God's words to previous prophets personal wrestling now we know that this is the first time he prayed vocally but this Does not say that this is the first time he prayed on this subject so you get all of these different things that he's engaged in to help bring about answers then I also think that there's a really interesting element here
too of what questions is God most excited to answer is we want answers to specific questions perhaps one of the questions that we can ask is Father in Heaven guide the question that I'm seeking answers to Section 46 the doctrine covenants seems to indicate that when we pray by the spirit our prayers are answered because we're praying by the spirit we can actually be directed in our prayer during our prayer how to pray and in that way prayer becomes Revelation and revelatory because we're being Guided by the spirit so you get this powerful question of
which church is true that I might join right move yeah yeah that's another Really important element here this is not information for information's sake but information motivated towards transformation which seems to be something that God really is excited about information leading towards transformation one of the questions obviously he wants to know which of all the churches is true that he might join but one of the questions that isn't as clear in the 1838 account is that one of the motivations of this Is a remission of his sins that's really really fascinating to me to think
in all the questions that he's seeking answers for in all the questions that we're seeking answers for can we also include a desire to be remissed of our sins Elder Scott T so clearly about Revelation on so many different occasions one of the things that he says is that You can increase your chances of receiving Revelation by purifying yourself which interestingly enough Hank that is one of the outcomes of my conversation with you when you're like hey come on the podcast I'm like okay yeah I love hanging out with with Hank and John but then
when you said come on the podcast for the first Vision come talk about First Vision I was like uh no no yeah no like no it's so big right it's it's so big it's so important it's So important and so the interesting thing that happened naturally was this self-reflection I found my heart as late as this morning as late as last night making different decisions because I was like I can't do anything that would get in the way of God speaking today in this topic we need God to speak it's been really interesting to me
to think okay well as I seek for God help me to know what we could talk about today I've felt motivated towards also And please could you cleanse me of my sins so that I'm ready that's really an important Dynamic here part of the pattern of being close to God having visions open to us of what God would have us do is this idea of being justified being cleanse pronounced clean from God and that facilitates the opening of The Vision another thing that was really interesting to me as I prepared is you know as I
was a wrestling with whether Or not I should agree our friendship was at stake right it was like how much do I like Hank and John like what what there so many people and that also added this element of seriousness to the the topic but the other thing that happened and I hope that this is helpful for listeners I started to think am I taking this more serious than I do any other experience with people because the abrahamic Covenant would make me Think that every time I interact with somebody there's as many as the Sands
of the sea behind them and if we can influence people then it's that same truth CS Lewis talks about everyone that you interact with is not just a mere mortal but then let's add a latterday St lens to that it's also true that everyone that you interact with is not a mere mortal but also there are countless not just mere mortals behind Them in generations to come those steps of Joseph really leading to anticipatory to the answer that comes are so important for us to recognize mle as you talked about the years that go by
it's interesting for us it's 26 verses we're reading you could probably do it in 5 to 10 minutes you could read this whole thing and think well that was a pretty quick process yet the time that's going by for him and then I noticed these words that You brought out in verse 11 laboring under extreme difficulty this wasn't what we might say is a 30 minute nice video of about the first Vision this is long and a difficult process for him which the wrestling is important it's worth the wrestle as Sherry do might say now
mlan for those of us who are pretty brand new to the church or to church history you've mentioned 1838 account you've mentioned 1832 account which one is the One right in front of me in my scriptures this is the 1838 account he begins the account in 183 8 but doesn't really finish until 1839 at some point this morning we need to talk about what this represents you know he begins this account very clearly describing what the account is and we need to be mindful of what this account represents because it may help us to apply
it effectively and appropriately in our life owing to the many reports which have been put in Circulation by evil disposed and designing person that's quite the opening line this account represents this element of I've been persecuted the church has been persecuted there's been lies told let me tell you the truth about the rise of the church so that's really really important to recognize interestingly enough in Doctrine Covenant section 20 this is called the Articles and Covenants of the Church of Christ this is a really powerful section according to section 18 This was meant to be
foundation of the church and of the gospel and of his Rock that's what the Lord reveals in section 18:4 this Revelation is going to be really foundational now section 20 actually ends up being a doctrinal a historical and a policy procedural foundation for the church the historical elements that are Included as the foundational historical elements of the Church of Jesus Christ of latterday saints includes the first Vision this is part of the historical foundation of the church it's really important that being said this account and the telling of this account it's a narrative given in
time and in space but the first vision is the thing that is the historical foundation and so you have the 38 telling of the story but then you have The 1832 telling of the story like we already mentioned this first line owing to the lies owing to the persecution let me give you the facts as I have them the 1832 account in contrast is a conversion narrative so in essence Joseph is saying let me tell you the story of of God pronouncing me clean and really of the beginnings of my relationship with God the Father
and Jesus Christ the son so that being said the first Vision Becomes Central to the historical realities of the church first vision and the Book of Mormon are really foundational to the historical footings of the church the tellings of those stories can be different based on the setting that Joseph is telling them in and even his reasons for example if you're feeling isolated and alone in your testimony and convictions of Jesus Christ if you're feeling like you're the only kid in your High school who believes in Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon this 1838
account might help give you strength and power in your solitary conviction you might feel persecuted people might say things to you that feel like they're cutting they're Jabs they're difficult this narrative might give you some direction on how to engage if you're the young person that feels like is God really there for me does Christ really have a portion of his Power and atonement that can bless my soul and lift me the 1832 account that might resonate with you a little bit more but if we're not careful we'll read the 1838 account over and over
and over again and unknowingly will'll incorporate a persecution narrative into our life situation let me give you an example that is close to home I just completed a master's degree at BYU in religious education it's kind of historical it's Kind of doctrinal and it's kind of educational and I decided I wanted to do a PhD so I applied to the University of Utah for their PHD in history and of course I got turned down why I'm Latter Day Saint and I got a master's degree at BYU and I was a seminary teacher at the time
and I was not welcome at the University of Utah because they don't like people like me that was my first reaction when I opened the rejection letter funny enough My wife actually month later after I got the rejection letter she came to me and she's like I don't I don't know what to do with this and she she gave me this bag I opened it up and there was a University of Utah hoodie she' bought me a hoodie before she knew that I was going to get turned down and she's like I don't know what
to do with this I do wear it because it tells me that my wife Believes In Me even when the University of Utah Doesn't but anyway I had bought into this persecution narrative so strongly that I initially wasn't capable of seeing my own inadequacy wow right because it was like if you're a victim then it's the other person's problem it's the other person's fault it's their eyes that are wrong you're good you're fine you're where you should be but it's the other person's eyes that need to change I had to take a really deep look
at myself an honest Look at myself and say is this because I'm persecuted or is this because I'm just not a good candidate for that particular program if I'm really honest with myself and with you it's because I wasn't a good candidate I didn't have a history master's degree I didn't have a history undergrad the important part about that is that then when I take ownership and I recognize that oh actually this might be partly just because of what I've done in My past that's a position of power that helps me to change a few
weeks ago I got an email this happens occasionally it was a a young girl named Kate from a Catholic High School in Florida and she said hey I'm doing this project in high school about the the Mormons that's how she said it can you answer some questions about Mormons and I was like yeah I think I could probably do that so she gave me a Series of eight questions I got to type my response and I sent off my response and then I read over my response after I'd already sent it it cuz that's what
you do you send it and then you read over over it right so I read over my response and I realized persecution narrative influenced my responses I was combative in some ways she didn't realize that I was combative because I was sneaky about it but I realized that's not the Approach that I want to take I don't want to be combative especially automatically assume a defensive position this is what Elder Ballard said about this he said this is in 2009 Buu graduation actually recently I saw some research about how other people see members of the
church I've long been interested in this subject and then he mentions that he's part of missionary program of the church this particular Piece of research made an interesting observation it suggested that members of the church can sometimes appear very defensive to those who are not members of the church one respondent went as far as to say that when Mormons are explaining their beliefs their language is in terms that suggest they are expecting criticism and then Elder Ballard goes on to say I can understand the reason why we had an extermination order issued Right our first
prophet is murdered like there's reasons for this I was talking to a colleague just the other day there's potentially still reasons for this but then he says this yet this isn't 1830 and there aren't just six of us anymore could part of the defensiveness that others sometimes see in US suggest that we still expect to be treated as a disliked minority forced to flee to the West in our interactions with others are We expecting always to have to defend ourselves if so I think we need to make a course correction and then listen to what
he says he says if we want to be respected today for who we are then we need to act confidently secure in the knowledge of who we are and what we stand for and not as if we have to apologize for our beliefs that doesn't mean we should be arrogant or overbearing respect for others views should always be a basic Principle for us it's built right into the articles of Faith but when we act as if we are A persecuted minority or if we expect to be misunderstood or criticized people will sense it and respond
accordingly now let me give you an example that's a little bit more fluid give me a a topic or even a question that might be asked from somebody that is not a member of the church that we may have a defensive stance regarding What about that plural marriage here's how I think I would respond in a way that isn't as defensive as I have in the past yeah so for a Time the church practiced plural marriage can you imagine the type of faith that it would take it was so hard for these people but they
had so much faith and trust in God and in a prophet they were willing to do it and to be honest with you their personal accounts suggest that God really did support them in it can you Imagine how hard that would be it's really an example of Faith now typically wind the clock 5 or 10 years ago and somebody asked me about plural marriage that's not necessarily the perfect response but I would often say oh well not very many of us practiced that and it was a long time ago and let's not really talk about
it yeah and you're not defensive or angry or combative you're just yeah this is how I see it isn't that isn't that Beautiful Joseph actually shows this in the account too when he gives this history he's I understand if you don't believe me I wouldn't believe me if it weren't for me if it didn't happen to me I don't know if I would believe myself that's a powerful place for him to be and he's like this does require faith and I understand that and I acknowledge that but let's move forward with that perspective I really
like that mlan it's hey I get it this is a hard thing to Grasp I really like that I like that confidence I don't have to defend I don't have to automatically go into debate mode I can just say yeah yeah we have some pretty tall orders what would you call them tough requests or faithful people yeah that is faith that is religion Jesus Christ rose from the dead Jesus Christ appeared in a physical body to Joseph Smith that is also miraculous inherent in being a religious person I accept that there are things That I
cannot explain completely and that's okay for me that's beautiful because it provides a state of humility and humility is really important in my relationship to God which Joseph he exemplifies that I don't know where to go so I'm going to go to God that humility is necessary for what is going to happen in the first Vision thank you mlan I think of a Q&A these were different cues that brought These a one of the answers was the 18381 1839 account owing to the many reports and the 1832 account maybe came from a different question would
you notice that the word testimony begins with a test would you notice that the word question begins with a quest and a quest is a long arduous search you talk about Joseph Smith since he was 12 laboring under extreme difficulties that is a quest a question today we can ask Siri or Alexa or Google Question in a matter of seconds but a quest is a long arduous search we've come to expect Google speed answers to Golden questions that require laboring I also love what you said about his main in the 1832 account was forgiveness of
my sins you know what it reminded me of here's enus in the book of morm well let me tell you of the wrestle which I had before God before I obtained a remission of my sins that's how his one and only chapter starts Here's how I got a remission of my sins what more important topic individually is there for all of us one of Joseph's accounts begins more that way than like you said the footings the establishment of the church if I remember right Bruce araki said that if you have the same question that prompts
the Revelation speaking specifically in the doctrine covenants then you can treat the Revelation as a personal response from God to you That helps us to think well the questions that motivate these responses and narratives are really important and they can help us to apply those really beneficially mlan you talked about setting if I remember right you are the church history expert here how long You' been teaching mlan I started full-time as a seminary teacher in 2009 so I went on a mission 2003 to 2005 and then started teaching the MTC and then student taught in
the Seminary and then Started Seminary teaching and and now at BYU in church history and Doctrine wait a second did you ever get to the U did you go somewhere else what happened so I was turned down at the U and then I applied to Claremont Graduate University and ended up going there for a PhD so we lived in Southern California yeah for a year this sounds like a country song but God's greatest answers sometimes are no yeah say the title of the country song God's greatest gift is unanswered Prayers yeah brother Brooks of the
70 yeah we ended up going to Southern California um to Claremont and it was just a much better fit did you get a Claremont hoodie that's important to know too yes but Claremont is also red and black in color so kind of fit could ironed on something on the other red one yeah yeah exactly I wore my red shirt today because you went to clar good the reason I asked mlan is so far we've talked about two accounts 1832 and 1838 correct me if I'm wrong 1832 Joseph you talked about this conversion remission of sins
narrative 1832 he has some time alone someone had broken their leg I think it's uh new K Whitney had broken his leg and Joseph was waiting with him and then in the 1838 1839 account I know that 1838 and 1839 are the worst years of Joseph Smith's life liberty jail yeah yeah are those settings going to make a difference on what I get let Me tell you this is from Stephen Harper's book he starts this account two weeks after Oliver cowry sends his resignation letter leaving the church can you imagine speaking of foundational events he's
one of the earliest people and Joseph has just received his resignation letter and then 1838 goes from bad to worse you start off in Kirtland where there's so much apostasy if I remember right Ron esin says that this could be as much as 30% 40% of the leadership of the church is having problems with Joseph this time so you go from Kirtland and then you move to Missouri and it goes from bad to worse and then there's violence and there's killing of Latter-day Saints pillage and everything else and led an extermination order and then you're
in prison and then you get out of prison and you make it to NAU what will become navu it's just a swamp at that point the burdens of the last year the Persecution dramatically altered your life that's going to come out in your writing yeah so I actually just called Steve this morning and asked him a few quick questions like hey help me not say anything wrong here he did not promise that I I I was going to not make any mistakes but one of things that is really interesting in this account persecution becomes a
real central theme in our pearl of great Price account he talks about in verse 21 where just a few days after he's with this Methodist minister he tells him of the account and just listen to what he says I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had I was greatly surprised at his behavior he treated my communication not only lightly but with great contempt saying it was all of the devil that there were no such things as Visions or revelations in these days That all such things had ceased with
the apostles and that there would never be any more of them and then this is an interesting transition here I soon found however that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among the professors of religion and was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase talking to Steve a little bit about this I said you know it's interesting one of the things that he brings up in his book Is that we don't have any historical record that Joseph tells anybody but this Minister about the first Vision account in
the first decade the first mention of the first Vision we have in any written form after it happened is actually Doctrine Covenant section 20 that briefly mentions that this took place but it doesn't really mention that it's the first vision of Jesus Christ and the Father so let me just read this verse to you this is what it says this is verse 5 Section 20 once again this is the historical Foundation of the church after it was truly manifest unto this first Elder that he had received a remission of his sins he was entangled again
in the vanities of the world if you're not really careful you'll miss that that's a reference to the first Vision what we've got here is after he Was truly forgiven of his sins received a remission of his sins that's the first vision and then it says he was a again entangled that's the time between the first vision and moroni's visitation and then verse six helps you to see that but after repenting and humbling himself sincerely through faith God ministered unto him by an Holy Angel whose countenance was as lightning and whose garments were pure and
white above all other whiteness think about this that Reference to the first vision is still very obscured is it possible that part of it being so obscur cured is because of the initial interaction with that Minister still after a decade he's feeling like uh maybe I shouldn't tell all the details here right it's a traumatic experience to share something so personal and so wonderful and have it rejected completely rejected not only took it lightly but got angry great Contempt especially as a young teenager I would be very reluctant to share again last time I talked
about this this happened I'm not doing that again yeah now remember when he has this visitation for Moroni he's visited three times that night we'll get into this next week but he sees Moroni three times that night and then he goes out and starts working and he can't do it he's too exhausted whether that's from staying up all night or from the visitation that really Drains his strength being the presence of yeah both as he's walking back to the farm he meets again Moroni right he passes out he meets Moroni again and Moroni is like
why didn't you tell your dad I used to think of this as like why didn't he trust his dad what does this tell us about his relationship with his dad The more I've studied it I don't think it has to do with his interaction with his dad I think it has to do with his interaction with that Minister he Says to I didn't know if my dad would believe me ronai says he will believe you now you get this angel having to say to Joseph trust your dad trust your dad here so he goes back
what's the response of his dad he weeps that's beautiful let's think about this from our perspective here when your child comes to you with a spiritually sensitive topic we should recognize that our reaction can dramatically impact that Child for a long time so we've talked about how this is revealing patterns if you want to know answers to some of your questions from God first of all be willing to adjust your questions go to appropriate reliable sources what I think we can't do we can't do with the first vision is we can't say the answer will
come in this way yeah look like this it it doesn't necessarily look like this now I remember being a young Scout you Remember when we used to do scouting go way back way back way back when and I was on a scout camp out summer camp and our leaders great great leaders I had phenomenal leaders but they said sometime this week I want you to go into the woods like Joseph did and just kneel down this is a a beautiful moment for the god of Heaven to touch your heart I was probably 13 14 I
was probably the same age as Joseph I still remember in my mind walking up this Hillside and being a really really intelligent and and gifted human you know there's this nice treed area and I ended up kneeling down right in a pile of rocks I remember being very uncomfortable kneel in the soft leaves or the Rocks I'm kneeling there and I'm praying I remember thinking you know I'm not Joseph I'm probably not going to see God and Jesus Christ but the probably was part of my story right probably not probably not and I'm Probably not
going to see Moroni because he's kind of like first tier Angel but am I important enough to pull a second tier Angel get the B Team could I get tanum to come like could he show up and answer my prayer I walked down off that hill and I felt like I didn't receive an answer which was for me a problem it was a spiritual problem I was thinking in my mind I'm going to have to go home from Scout camp and tell my parents that I found out that the Church is not true how do
I have that conversation that's a lot for a 13-year-old here yeah yeah so later that same camp out our stake president and my nextdoor neighbor his name is President Wayne Watson he came up he's my best friend's dad I knew him really well we had a campfire program you know the end of this story he starts off by talking about the church a little bit and talks about testimony it talks about God's truth and then he bore Witness in my little boy moment I this is my first moment where I felt like Jesus Christ and
Father in Heaven are real they seem to know me now I've just told you a narrative story about coming to know some truth and if we're not careful this first Vision has led me to an intense emotional experience well what if I have a student or a child in my family who the language that God uses to teach them truth is not intense Emotional experience one more quick story later in life we have children now at this point and my six-year-old I think he was about six our oldest son he's contemplative he's the typical oldest
he's a great great great boy this was 10 years ago now he said to me dad I don't know if I believe in God and I remember thinking in my mind how do I answer this six-year-old like he's so young and I Remember thinking to myself I can tell him some principles that go into his quest for his answer but I don't think I can tell him about the outcomes as I was talking to him I was like you might pH you might experience if we're not careful we'll speak and talk about testimony and even
the first Vision in ways that make our Students and our listeners think intense emotional experience that is the way that God speaks to us but let's just be careful Doctrine covant Section 8 I will tell you in your mind and your heart but yet culturally we never say I thought the Spirit today we don't say that but those are just two ways a Third Way Elma 32 talks about the fruit of the spirit right the outcomes take a seed plant it let it grow a tree pick the fruit eat the fruit And when you know
it's good then you know that that seed was good this is years of a process we bought a peach tree from the greenhouse that was already years old and then they told us don't expect to have peaches for another probably two or three maybe four years s years seven years so now you think about Joseph we go back to his account Hank you said it takes five minutes to read this well if it only takes five minutes to read it then Surely God can answer my question in an additional 10 minutes no it took Joseph
two years it took Brigham Young 2 years two years how many of us are that patient to really think carefully Joseph takes years for this answer to come the answer might be well after two or four or six or seven years of living my covenants I can now look back and say I appreciate the man that I'm becoming as I live this Covenant Oriented life that might be your answer from the spirit and it might not be emotional that's I think a really important topic to discuss one of my the assignments that I give my
students at BYU is I want you to do research on the spiritual method of coming to know truth and then I want you to write personally after you've done this research how does this look individually for me and what I'm trying to cultivate in the student is this idea of here's what prophets and Apostles have said about this investigative process this Quest that I'm going on but here's how it's Unique to me here's how God is treating my relationship with him as an individual relationship between me and him we need to actually provide a lot
of room for students a lot of room to say it might be this it might be that it could be it could could be a combination and Moroni even brings this up listen to what he Says Moroni 7: 23 and 24 God also declared unto prophets by his own mouth that Christ should come Doctrine Covenant section 46 says that some people are given the gift to know by the spirit the next gift listed is that some people have to believe on their words does that mean that they don't have the spiritual feelings that we might
maybe but then look at this next verse verse 24 and behold there were diverse ways that he did manifest things Unto the children of men which were good and all things which are good cometh of Christ there's all these different ways and thinking about this with Joseph Smith's family is there a reason that God could speak to Joseph through visions as a historian I say yes absolutely Lucy mmith and Joseph Smith Senor both had dreams and Visions both of them if Joseph would have grown up the son of The minister that he told the fish
fishing to would God have been able to speak to him through dreams and visions doesn't sound like it he wouldn't have been taught that way yeah yeah it would not have been a language that God could have used because God speaks to us according to our language we might need to be a little bit more conscious and say there's a lot of different ways that God can speak to you so my brother's a Pediatric psychiatrist which I can't even spell those words in the prear life he got an extra portion I think that when God
was diving out smarts the bottle slipped into his tank of preparation I was talking to him about this idea of section 46 talks about there's some that believe because of the power of the spirit teaching them and then some have to believe on their words and it was like I wonder if is this Saying that there are some people that maybe have a reduced capacity to fill the spirit and could that be just because of who they are could it also be because culture is moving away from emotions being a way to know something either
culturally or just personally an incapacity to F the spirit in those ways so I was always talking to about it he described this condition called I don't know if I'm going to say this right okay sorry sorry bro we're gonna let the Computer say it Alexa thyia Alexa thyia that guy Alexa thyia Alexa thyia is is an inability to identify and express or describe one's feelings wow wow it's an inability to express or feel or understand your emotions now this is the part that's crazy to me the estimates range between 10 and 15% of people
experience this think about this think about the reality of this if God can only speak to us through our emotions And 10 or 15% of people have a reduced capacity to understand or feel or comprehend or distinguish between emotions that's a problem we have to be able to talk about different ways that God speaks to his children because we're all different it reminds me of Jane clayon Johnson she wrote the book silent Souls weeping depression sharing stories finding hope she talks really clearly about how when you're in moments of depression it feels like you have
no Capacity to F or a reduced capacity to F imagine this in your worst hardest moments the heavens are blocked if you believe that that's the only way that God can speak to you through your feelings then if you're having a depression moment a mental health a brain health moment as Jane Johnson would say that reduces God's ability to speak to you if we reduce the languages that he speaks with only to emotion our good friend Robert Millet the dean of BYU religion and a stake president at the time went through a moment of brain
Health Challenge after his heart attack and he said that he didn't fill the spirit here's a stake president he's the dean of religion at BYU he should be filling the spirit like he had for decades before and in this moment of Mental Health Challenge he couldn't this I hope is in some ways a balm of Gilead for our listeners to think okay Joseph is going to give us a pattern for how to Receive answers for my prayers but not a pattern for how the answers are going to come he's called to be a prophet that's
going to be different than me but I can have a personal relationship with deity it's just going to look different it's going to be individual that's a beautiful positive a one by one Ministry Book of Mormon starts with Lehi who has a vision now we don't have lehi's backstory how did that long laborous process work for Lehi and then he tells Nephi Nephi gets an answer to a prayer that's pretty direct Nephi tells his brother Sam who believes on the words of his brother that spiritual gift you just mentioned Sam's just like yeah and believes
him which is great Sariah does Sarah say oh I'm crying I feel the spirit I have her burning in the bosom NOP she's telling Lehi I hate it when you kill the boys by sending him back to laan and all of the sudden the boys come Over the hill with the plates of brass and sah says now I know my husband hath been commanded to flee Into the Wilderness now I know because the Lord has protected my sons and maybe more about s we don't know for her it was this logical thing God spoke to
her look at all those different ways look at all those different ways even in the beginning of the Book of Mormon and I remember as a student at BYU going through the same thing how am I supposed To feel this some of the best decisions I ever made were sitting in the Marriot center and they weren't at basketball games they were at firesides I walked in fuzzy about priorities or school or whatever and I left going I need to stop doing this I need to start doing this and it dawned on me that's for me
how I feel God speaks to me is Clarity didn't make me cry didn't get a burning in the bosom nope I just was H I need to do this I need to stop doing this I'm so Grateful that God speaks to different people different I'm so glad you brought that up mlan because I think a lot of people will be going oh thank you as a teacher we're all put in in capacities as teachers in the church whether that's a ministering sister whether that's an Elders quum instructor whether that's a father whether that's a brother
or a sister or a mother we're all in these capacities to teach that needs to alter the way that we discuss and talk about Revelation and how we help people go through this process we want our faith to be passed down from generation to generation we want that so badly because it's such a beautiful faith in theology but if we're not careful then we will cause more problems than we want to so now I want you to think how would a a teacher teach a lesson recognize the spirits there but help to create space for
a diversity of experiences among their students our Assumption is that people feel things similar to us we might say things like can you feel that a student whose language at that particular time in their life needs to be the fruit of may be frustrated by saying I can't feel that I didn't feel a thing and it might turn them off for future feelings or in future settings where you might be teaching because they think oh this teacher is going to try but I can't do Like that's not the way that God speaks to me so
this is a caution not just for teachers but also for students be careful that you don't lock yourself into one way of knowing what if God wants to teach you through dreams and you've already said I just am not that kind of a person we have to allow God the Liberty to speak to us the way that he would like to speak to us and to be very blunt with you Dreams Are One Way Elder Scott taught in conference he Taught let me tell you about dreams and he told us a few ways that we
can know if our dream is revelation it's been really fun for me as a teacher to bring up this idea of dreams I'll say Joseph Smith Sor and Lucy Max Smith both had dreams it allowed for space to Joseph to have religious expression Beyond just what might have been the typical and then I'll say to my students I have to set the stage a little bit dreams are one Way that God teaches us and they're personal and they're private and they're sacred as you think about the dreams that you've had have you ever woken up
from a dream and just thought that was actually kind of spiritual that was interesting and maybe you didn't really think a lot about it but just like oh that was a different sort of thing God can speak through dreams and then I'll say just by the raise of hand how many of you have had an experience Similar to that where you woke up and you thought wow that was that was kind of cool in some classes it's as much much as 50% of the students will raise their hands listen to what Elder Scott said Revelation
can also be given in a dream when there is an almost imperceptible transition from sleep to wakefulness if you strive to capture the content immediately you can record great detail but otherwise it fades rapidly inspired communication in the night is Generally accompanied by a sacred feeling for the entire experience the Lord uses individuals for whom we have great respect to teach us truths in a dream because we trust them and will listen to their counsel it is the Lord doing the teaching through the Holy Ghost however he may in a dream make it both easier
to understand and more likely to touch Our Hearts by teaching us through someone we love and respect that's Richard G Scott how to Obtain Revelation and inspiration for your life April conference 2012 I was talking to my kids about this around the dinner table it was really a fun conversation to be honest in fact I even told them one of the dreams that Joseph Smith Sor had he's not really connected to any specific religious denomination but he's a God-fearing man he's a good man and he believes in God's truth and he has this dream one
night where he's accompanied by a guide in his Dream and he's in this Barren Wasteland he's walking he has this conversation with with his guide where in essence the guide says this represents the world and the fact that the fullness of the truth the gospel are not found currently on the Earth but continue walking and you'll find a large log where there will be a box and in that box will have contents and those contents will be the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ continues walking and he gets to the log And he finds
the box and he opens up the box and he partakes of this of the gospel and it it fills it's beautiful it's powerful it's peaceful just as you would expect and then immediately these wild animals gather around him in the most threatening of way and he has to run for his life and he wakes up feeling peace but also very aware very alert then you start thinking well how does that Influence Joseph and how does that dream lead to Joseph Smith senior's reaction to Joseph of weeping the dream that I love that Lucy shares she's
inclined towards methodism first she wants to go to the Methodist Church but at this time in America heart churches and head churches don't like each other if you're in a church that really is emotional you look down on the head Churches because they're so logical they don't even know from God that what they're doing is true they just it's all brain but then the brain churches look down and the Heart churches like there's no reason behind the stuff that you're doing we have to have both anyway Joseph Smith senior's father has heard that they're attending
some Methodist meetings that's not really a great look for the Smith family they reason they don't like this so they actually go to The Smith family home and the account in Lucy Max Smith history says that her father-in-law throws Thomas Payne's book Age of Reason into the house and bade them read it until they believed it this idea of this is too emotional of a religion this hurts her Joseph Smith Senior comes to her and says I don't think that you should attend Methodist meetings in fact let me just read this line to you because
I think it's so powerful how he says this to her and her Reaction to it he says accordingly his father and his brother Jesse come to the house they throw the book into the home they also told him Joseph missr that he ought not to let me go to the meetings and it would be far better for him to stop going accordingly my husband requested me not to go as he considered it hardly worth our while to attend any longer and it would prove of but little advantage to us and it gave our friends such
disagreeable Feelings so the reason why Lucy is going to these different churches is because she's gotten sick a few years previous she think she might die she's told the Lord if you will save my life I will find the True Church of Jesus Christ she's saved so she becomes this Seeker now imagine being Lucy Max Smith and your husband says to you it gives our our neighbors disagreeable feelings for you to attend the Methodist Church please stop there's This moment of angst I don't know how that would go over with your wife's if you said
that but my wife is both a literal and a spiritual red head that would not have worked out well for us then she goes into the woods Lucy maith goes into the woods in this moment of difficulty and praise she does not get an answer and that night she has a dream where she sees two trees one is inflexible and one is is flexible the flexible tree has a golden belt around It and the tree seems to bend and move in the wind it's Animated she says if it had been an intelligent creature it could
not have conveyed by the power of language the idea of joy and gratitude so perfectly as it did and even the stream that rolled beneath it shared apparently every sensation felt by the tree for as the branches danced over the stream it would swell gently then recede again with a the motion as soft as the breathing of an infant but as Lively as The dancing of a Sunbeam she talks about this beautiful dream the other tree stands stiff and obstinate and will not move to the wind no matter how hard the wind blows she's given
the interpretation of this dream that Joseph Smith sior is this flexible tree and Jesse Smith her brother-in-law is the unbending tree and while Joseph Smith Senor will accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ when it's preached to him Jesse Smith Will always reject it this moment of personal Discord is answered through a personal private prayer in the woods followed by a dream now you think about how God is using the Smith family to prepare Joseph to have a diverse answer to his prayer I think it's really really powerful and beautiful and it gives
us a model to follow as parents and teachers and leaders to expand the way that God can communicate with his children and Not to reduce it and simplify it John de remember just a couple of weeks ago when Dr SWAT was here and we're reading moroni's promise and he gets to verse five by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things and so often as a teacher that's where we stop oh what does the Holy Ghost feel like oh it's like this and then he said but just turn the
page which of course I felt like I had not been a good teacher for the last 15 Years Turn the Page and here are all the gifts of the Spirit the different way the Holy Ghost can manifest often we stop at verse five in maron's promise and say okay this is what the Holy Ghost is going to feel like when if we just turn the page there are diverse diverse ways we have people that try to undermine the reality of the first Vision account they speak critically of Joseph he didn't really have this experience One
of the most common critiques is that if Joseph would have had this experience it would have showed up in a newspaper in a journal someone else's journal in some other place it would have showed up that's an assumption that a a boy that's thoughtful that hasn't had a a significant education that doesn't have a lot of financial capacity would have gone out and bought some paper and written it down that's an assumption About a lot of different things that would have happened if the first Vision were to take place and I don't subscribe to that
philosophy even in his account Joe Smith history verse 21 it says I soon found myself persecuted the hard part about how soon did he find himself persecuted because of telling this that's the part that is difficult and that's the part where these antagonists of the church would Say Well it must have been within a year it must have been within a few months it must have been within but the reality is that this begins a part of his narrative that is contemplative we have the fact a factual recall of information is I told a minister
and he shot me down that's a kind of a factual thing but then he trans he starts talking about it felt as though I was persecuted from a very early Age well now we have to put this contemplative moment for Joseph into his setting when he's writing the account as much as when he's experiencing the account putting that in its context in 1838 this is a time of intense persecution it feels as though Joseph Smith is saying it feels like from the earliest time of my life I have experienced persecution over and over again and
how Can I explain this well from a very early age it feels like Satan thought I would be a disturber and annoyer of his kingdom I love what you're saying here in verse 21 the Methodist preacher he told it to treated it not only lightly and I love what you've told us about what when our kids tell us things treating it lightly means what being very dismissive and then with great contempt I mean how would you feel in that moment here he's sharing something Pretty personal only lightly with great contempt and then verse 21 I
soon found however my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion I like the word profess this is what we profess and was the cause of great persecution which continued to increase and here's what I was thinking though I was an obscure boy boy only between 14 and 15 years of age and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the World yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me and create a bitter persecution
and this was common among all the sex all United to persecute me oh interesting like you said people were saying it's not in the paper or whatever well he's an obscure boy he's a kid of no concept quence he can't make sense of it why would they go after me these are men of high standing and I'm just a kid and it's coming out Of 1838 as well where seems like everybody in the world is after you in Missouri mlan you mentioned sometimes doing faulty research here's one thing I've noticed that people do I'd love
for your thoughts on this someone might read this story and then say something like well if this had happened to me I would do Fillin the blank I would have immediately gone home and told my family about it Joseph Smith doesn't do it so obviously he didn't Have that experience cuz he didn't do what I would do in that situation and for some strange reason we call that research I've really thought through this so have you noticed that when people will criticize Joseph it sometimes he didn't do what I would do that's one of the
fun things to do as a teacher is to put your students in situations that make them think deeper than just a gut response I try and let the people most intimately impacted by The Experience talk more than me that's what I want to have happen and the thing that's interesting is their voices are so powerful Jane Manning James I don't want to reduce her life to ease it was not easy she's an African-American member of the church she lives through a number of different prophets Joseph Smith briam young John Taylor Wilford wood I don't know
if it Was every single one but she would write the prophet and say is it is it now time for me to receive my endowment and she's told every time no your gut response could be well if I were her I would leave the church if I were her I would and we want to speak for these people in her final testimony that's recorded she lists the very prophetic leaders who deny her access to the endowment and then she encourages the Latter-Day Saints to be better listeners and followers of these good and great men wow
one of the things that happens with this generation the the younger generation is they want to stand in solidarity with persecuted groups and minorities that's a beautiful thing if we're not careful we might stand on the wrong side of these persecuted groups now for sure it is true that there's been racism inside and outside of the church president Nelson and others have Spoken very clearly about that and if that happens I want to be the first one to stand up and say no more stop it don't let it happen it's not happening here and so
I don't want to simplify or reduce this narrative but I do want to say if there's persecuted groups of people that I want to speak in behalf of I want to stand next to them and let them do the speaking I understand the pain and I understand that even today individuals different racial groupings In the church may experience persecution but I'm going to choose to stand with Jane Manning James who stayed in the church Elijah Abel who was a priesthood holder who stayed in the church green flake who stayed in the church Isaac Thomas who's
a contemporary member of the church who's was the first individual sealed in the Salt Lake Temple of African descent and his testimony is not easy but man it's Powerful he'll say the church isn't perfect but I'm so grateful for it he says how do you feel today he says I feel Joy I'm going to stand with him and not presume to think that I can speak for him if anybody wants to go further with this with mlan you need not go far four years ago mlan joined us for Doctrine Covenant section 51-57 I've used this
so many times mlan talking about Edward Partridge getting in an argument with Joseph Smith Sydney Rigden gets offended because Edward Partridge talks to to Joseph Smith that way Ezra Booth gets offended that Joseph Smith would talk to Edward Partridge that way Edward Partridge and Joseph Smith work it out so the two parties who actually were in the argument they work it out and the other two who had nothing to do with it at all stay offended almost for the rest of their lives M I have used that over and over with the same type of
idea we can't be offended For other people on other people's behalf but we also can't assume that we know how they would react if Joseph would have experienced this then he would have and boy oh boy I don't think I would like to base my convictions on that type of an argument we have to allow Joseph to be Joseph and me and you to be me and you which is the same case with God I want to say to somebody you're going to fill the spirit with X Y and Z in order to be a
good member of the church you have to fill the Spirit you have to feel it strongly and powerfully well what if I don't feel I can't put my experience on other people and Joseph is not he's not trying to do that he's saying this is the foundation let me give you all the facts of the church and its growth and development as I have them in my possession this is how it happened and he's not saying this is how it's going to be for You I think we can learn some principles from his narrative from
his story but there's also limitations to those narratives coming up in part two of this episode I mentioned earlier that I had written this letter to this young Catholic Student that want to know about Mormonism one of the things that she asked is what is a misconception about your church that is prominent and that would be helpful to understand [Music]
