Peter Korn - High Diversity Planting

[Applause] Yeah. Yeah. Really nice to be here and uh see you from down here.

Um little surprised they asked me after lunch. So I'm I wasn't really prepared but I will do the talk that I should have done on Saturday. So I have to do make a new talk for Saturday.

So that will be another one. you can stay. Yeah, I started gardening about 30 years ago and I think I'm doing the opposite to all the other speakers today.

I'm trying to create as bad conditions as possible, taking away all organic material and really make the plant suffer as much as I can. So, no nutrients, no water, just creating really harsh conditions. Uh my old garden was outside of Gutenberg.

Uh I lived there for about 12 years and that was a wet spruce forest from to start with and I created uh landscape for step plants and desert plants. Uh, and this is my favorite area going to the step in Kaukasus, Central Asia, Western America, hot, dry places where it's not raining on me. And I love all the plants from these conditions.

And to be able to grow them in in the wet climate in Sweden, you really have to create similar conditions as how they grow in the wild. So all these plant, they just hate compost and pete most of all. So that's a very good reason to also stop using pets because that's really the worst material for plants.

So if you want to make it really bad in your garden, use pets. But um otherwise that's yeah just stop using it just for the plants and for the environment. So going to cowas in Ghani there's like plants meeting from Russia and Iran and Turkey.

So it's very concentrated. The Armenia is the same size as Belgium, but they have double the amount of plants that in Scandinavia. So they have about three and a half thousand species there.

And we have 1,800 in Scandinavia. And just exploring this area, just walking around here. It's 40°, really nice weather, and just looking where do the plants grow.

Do they grow on the slope or the bottom or the squeeze? just trying to understand why they occupy these different places or the the Pontic Alps in northern Turkey was a very interesting area. It's like walking around in the garden and many of our garden plants they come from this area and then we think they are difficult when we plant them in the wet soil with a lot of compost and we think oh they are difficult but of course if you plant a cacti in the pond it will be difficult.

So this is this is what I really need. So trying to create this kind of conditions in a garden. This was a spruce forest when I started and I was digging there for 10 years.

I was reshaping the whole garden. Uh in the deepest part I had to dig away 3 m of soil and all the soil I moved to the other side. So it was like moving the valley 15 meter to create this really south facing hot dry place to be able to grow plants from California and Turkey and in a wet climate in Sweden.

And I also added I think four or five thousand ton of sand to create this really well drained poor conditions. Uh and there I could grow plants from all over the world. On the wet north facing slope that was primolas from the Himalayas.

2 meter away there was cacti from Utah. So in a very small spot you can create all these small niches to be able to grow very wide range of plants. And it was all done by hand.

I was it's a spade and a wheelbarrow. has to create these microhabitats and trying to to plant the plant as they will grow in the wild. The cushions up on the crest, the sedums on the rocks, all these microhabitats that you will find in the wild.

And I also like to build a garden as nature. You have to explore it. You're walking around and finding all these small groups of plants.

And and I had about 12,000 different species in the garden. We're also mixing plants from all all over the world to get a really long flowering season. So mixing the step with natives and North American species, but they all come from similar conditions in the wild.

And I didn't water it. I water them once when I plant them and then never more. Never fertilized.

In the end, the last five year I had a garden. I lived in the south. So I had a week a year to maintain two hectars and I thought in nature reserve you often do it by burning.

So I did that. So every spring I went there with a gas burner and just burnt down the whole garden. And that's the most fun and effective way to clean the garden for spring.

And it was really interesting to follow it when I didn't have time to weed it or maintain it, how it behaved. And most of the weeds, they disappeared by themselves. By not weeding them, you don't disturb the soil and then they don't germinate again because they're all depending of this disturbance.

So by not weeding, you don't get the weeds. And then we move moved to Clint. Uh I met Julia.

She lived in Malma. So I had to move there. Uh and then uh yeah, and then we bought Clinta.

It's it was old uh nursery. There was a big greenhouse and all the buildings we needed. So we took a walk in the garden and looked at the greenhouse and then we said we buy it.

And the owner asked, "Do you want to see inside the house, too? And this was all a totally flat lawn there. It was 10,000 square meter grass with hedges and like no variation.

It was all flattened out. Um and I bought it together with Julia. She's a landscape engineer teaching at university in Alnap plant knowledge and planting design.

And that's always difficult when you buy a garden together with another gardener. So we we decided directly we have to have our own areas. So so we divided and it was very easy.

Julia, she likes clay and compost and all of that. And as you probably know, I like the step and the dry places. Yeah.

And the garden is like in the middle of the garden there's a line and half the garden is clay and half is sand. So So it was very easy to just divide it. I have the dry side and Julia have the wet side and all organic material from my side we just moved to her side and and we it's a small company is Clint and we're working all over Sweden and we did a project in London this year and Denmark and Norway and Moscow once and uh it's just me and Julia and then we have Yunatan sitting there and Emily is full-time and then Alfreda who works So, one day a week during the season and then we have a lot of nice volunteers and students coming the whole season helping us.

So, it's always a lot of fun. And we want to stay small because then we can do all the different steps. We don't want to be a big company because then you're just ending up in the office and that's not my favorite place.

Everybody who tried to send me emails that that's not my favorite place to be. So, try again. And in the garden we this is in a quite flat landscape.

We can't build this dramatic landscape as I could in my old garden. So now we it's more small amount but still creating like habitats that are similar to nature and planting the plants where they should occur. If you go to Turkey you will see the the tulips on the south side and they're not everywhere.

They have very small niches and if you plant them in a similar niche in the garden, they will be longived. But if I put it on the north side instead, it will be too cold and they will disappear. If I put them one m further down, it will be too wet and they will not come back.

But in this little stretch, that's where they would grow in the wild too. And then they will live for many years. Yeah.

So this is how it looks when I try to do the soil as poor as possible. Uh so it's sandy soil to start with. So I took away all the top soil to get rid of all the rich nutrients and and then I mounted it and added more sand to get better drainage and then I added another layer of sand on top of that to get it really poor and then I planted a lot of things from the step that come from similar condition conditions in the wild.

Water them once and then they just grow. See the problem is to stop them growing. It's really difficult to get it bad enough to slow it down.

And then every winter we cut down everything, clean the bed as much as possible, not leaving any organic material. And all this we just use in the Ulia side in the woodland area where we want the thick layer of compost. So it's all moved around inside the garden.

and then in the spring it's just full of bulbs and then it's it's just new layers every month. So doing this variation just a small just digging down 20 cm and raising up 20 cm you have this you get the south side and you get the north side and it's very different conditions down in the bottom a little more moisture up on the top a little drier. So by creating a landscape, you also have a lot of opportunities to grow plants in their right niches.

If it was just flat and top soil on everything, there's no variation and you could only grow a very small pallets of plants. And in the beginning, I only did it for the plants. Uh I didn't think at all about insects.

They were more annoying. Uh but then in the end you you start building all these habitats for plants and there is a lot of interesting things coming in and yeah strange people coming there with looking at them and telling it's this is good. So um I started more and more adding biodiversity to the plantings and now it's getting a quite big part of what we're doing.

So I just putting a mound of sand on the lawn. The neighbor took down some trees. We just place them on the soil and fill up.

And the for the plants, we use a quite coarse sand, but that's not perfect for the insects. So then we're adding these mounds of finer sand and sometimes adding some clay to them for the insect to dig in. And a lot of dead wood.

And this was done in the spring and the same planting in the summer. And it's nice with insects because they are coming in really quick. If you do something in the spring, you will see the result in the summer.

So you don't have to wait 10 years or something. They they find it really quick. Also, the only maintenance here is to cut it down in the winter and take away the organic material and we use that on the on the vegetables.

Also triing using different recycled material. So the the bed to the left, it's just crushed concrete and the plants like it a little too much. I think it's too much minerals and it's too good for them.

Uh but it's a yeah very good material to use but I don't see many insects nesting in it. So I think a combination of recycled material and sand beds as John is doing is this variation in the soil and the landscape. That's the important part.

So in the concrete it just there's it's not just this small gray things from Kazak Kazakhstan that likes to grow it. It's like 2 m perennials and it's really big and lush. And I normally never use any ground covers because they're just taking up too much space.

I I like tap roots and the things then I can have 100 species in a square meter instead of one just taking up too much space. So skip the ground covers then you're wasting space. And I love this all this the steep pass from the step.

And even when you go to Turkey and this dry areas, they always grow on the driest part in the dry area. So up on the hills where it's always windy. So wind is very important for the plants.

So the first thing I did when I started on this side of the garden, I took away all the hedges. There was three hedges to stop the wind and there's wind power stations just outside of the garden. So, it's a very windy spot.

So, without the hedges, the the garden is much windier and the the plants like it much more. So, take away your hedges, especially on the west side to get more wind into the garden. And this deeper pulima from Turkey is a really beautiful grass.

It keeps the feather for about two months starting the end of June and last one falls in the middle of August. But it really needs these mounded dry conditions to be long lived and all these small strips of soil that is cities are full of them on the south side of a house where it's very dry is perfect for bulbs. Before there was just some grass that was just brown the whole summer.

So we took it out and it's just gravel under it. So then we planted a lot of bulbs. Uh, and when you want a lot of bulbs, you need a lot of bulbs.

It's not a one bag from the supermarket. So, here we plant about 1,500 bulbs per square meter, but then you get like a a bulb show for for 5 months. just solid bulbs for 5 months and then they all go dormant in the summer and then it's a perfect habitat for solitary bees and other insects that living in the sand in the autumn and then just starts all over again in the spring.

So add a few zeros to your orders next time. And then we started landscaping and uh it was really difficult to find plants with a good quality and also the the v varieties we want to have. Uh so we had to start our own nursery and this is the best having your own nursery without customers.

So, so all the plans is just for us and we hired Yuratan. So, he's responsible for the nursery and then Emily, she's coming with me on different project and and then we do everything together at home. So, the whole nursery is just uh frames with sand.

Put some myex in the bottom to stop the roots from growing down in the soil below. And then it's just 20 cm sand with a frame of wood around it. In the winter, we cut everything down, clean them as much as possible, and all the organic material from the nursery we use for the vegetables.

So they just moved a few meters away and then we plant everything bare rooted, water them once, and then uh just leave them until we need them. Uh the area is about 3,000 square meters. Last year we diged up about 200,000 plants there.

And the best thing they grow faster than we use them. So the nursery is still full. So now we have to reduce the beds cuz we have too many plants.

So it's extremely productive. Never fertilized, never watered. 2018 when people thought it was a dry summer, we didn't water anything.

And in August, people was angry when I came because everything was so green and lush and their garden was just brown. So sand is really a good alternative for the future or it could be concrete all of it. It would be perfect too.

So when I make a sand bed, I always put it on top of the soil. Uh if you dig a hole and fill it with sand, it will become a pond. That's where all the water will go in when it's raining.

So it always have to be on top of the soil. And the sand I normally use is from zero to 8 mm. So very well drained and there shouldn't be too much clay in it or no clay.

So the cake test is very good. If you can make a cake of it, then it's too fine and it will keep the moisture too much in winter and dry out too much in the summer. And then about 20 cm.

Uh and you can see it a little bit here. The top 10 cm will dry out very quick in the summer, but then it will always be moist in the winter. If you go to the beach in the summer and put down your toes, it's always cold and moist.

So sand is not dry. It's it's really good at keeping moisture. But it also very well drained.

So it's never wet and it's never dry. So perfect conditions for plants just keeping this even moisture. And it's extremely poor, so they don't grow too much.

uh but then after a while you get a lot of microisa in the sand uh and that helps the plants to pick up nutrients and moisture and so that's why it work without all this compost and feeding and if you're feeding the sand beds then the plants take this easy feeding because they don't need to give anything away so by fertilizing it you destroy the the symbios with the microisas and the and the bacteria so just wait uh And normally it's a slow process. The first year the the plant are suffering, making roots, just establishing. The second year they start to grow.

And then the third year they are really going on. But it's it's a slow it's the opposite to a a normal planting where it looks great for the opening and then you have to rebuild it after 3 years. So it's a slow process as as it would be in nature.

Yeah, the sunbirds are slow, but the plants develop massive root system. I think this is the the second year. Um, and when we use them, we just pull them up, shake off the sand, put them in the bag, and bring them to the job.

And we do that any time of the year, unless it's frozen. So, it's fine to do it in the middle of the summer. If the client want a nice planting, they get the whole thing.

If they want a low budget, we divide it a lot. If if they want it really cheap, we we slaughter it. So, I think the the salvia could probably be at least 100 plants.

You just take the roots and cut them in 5 cm pieces and that's a nice plant. If you want more, you can cut it in the middle and you have even more. And or maybe if you are from Scotland, you can do it four of it.

So it's very easy to propagate plant. It's very easy to make too many. It's the hard thing is to get rid of them.

And this year we did a playground in in London in Covent Garden playground. We did the landscape. It was really compacted soil.

It was really stinking and there was like no life in it and but it had been like sinking down about 20 cm. We just filled up with sand. They was digging a little bit, but it was really smelling.

So, we just put the sand on top of the existing soil. And then in July, we brought 6,000 plants in in full flour, planted there, and water them once. It was a wet week, so we were lucky with that.

But, and also the transport. basic all the plants in full flower in July and then just pack them in the car planting them a week later watering them and then they just keep on growing. Uh and then normally is nice roots with little bit of foliage.

So there it's not this massive plants with small roots that you get from nurseries. The the good thing is it's underground. So the first year they're just establishing.

They will just sit there. But then we're adding annuals to it to get a nice display the first year. So if you go there now, it's probably full of California poppies and other things filling the gaps the first year and then they will slowly disappear and will be replaced with the perennials.

So after a few years it will look like this or similar. This is from Malma just by the coast. So very windy, salty and this is a extension out in the in the sea.

So, it's all just stone and gravel below it. So, there's no good soil anywhere. It's just gravel with a sand bed on top.

And this bed is uh I think six years now. And the only maintenance is to cut it down in the winter and take away organic material. The staff, they go there and uh weed it, but they're spending more time looking for weeds than pulling the weeds.

So, they really like it. And that's always a good start. If the maintenance people like it, then it will work.

Yes. When we do a planting, we we just bring all the plants and I place them out where where I want them and then yeah, people help me to plant them. This is a green roof we did at Clinttown.

We have a trial area with a testing different lowweight substrate and recycle material. So this was planted in November and I think this is three years later. And on the roof we we fertilize a little bit because it's it's leaking too much nutrients and there's no the microisa don't seem to work as good on the roofs.

Uh but it's very little fertilizing in in the spring and no watering. So they have to survive on it and no organic material. This is a permiss sand and bioshar mixed.

Yeah, it's great if you can buy bare wed plants and uh there is a know is here. He has good quality bareed plant that you can buy in the winter but then it's difficult to get them in the summer and it's not all varieties. So we do buy a lot of plants in pots and then normally we buy one box or sometimes just one pot and then you we wash away all the soil to get them totally clean and then before we plant them out in the nursery.

So many of the stock beds are just a single pot to start with. So we have spent maybe £3 on it to start with. So the the plants in the nursery are extremely cheap.

So that's why we can do this really low budget pro project and still earning quite a lot of money. Yeah. And after meeting John I started to build a lot of more things.

Uh so this was a part of the nursery and now we are reducing the the growing areas and adding interesting structures to it instead. Uh and we're doing that more into our project too. just adding variation in the landscape.

But one of the best thing is just to dump a load of sand and leave it and it will just be occupied by insects really quick. And then having different fractions of the sand, you get different insects living in them. They don't have to be expensive fancy insect hotel.

Just a pile of sand is perfect and then a pile of wood beside it and then you have done a lot and also after John's party two years ago the the big thing on the party was the moth trap and and then we had a student that that summer and she had a moth trap that we put out like every night and when she left I had to buy my own. Uh, and this year I have put it out almost every night since January. I think I'm up in about 400 different species in the garden this year and quite a lot of red listed and rare species.

And this year I was really lucky. I got a diploma from the entom Swedish entomology society. So that was I think the the best price I could get.

It was just a diploma. no money or anything but has to be recognized with by that group of people that I I'm doing doing good things because it's there's a lot of experiment and and there's really good apps that you can figure out what it is. There was a small butterfly and the app was almost sure it was a European eel and and then I zoomed in and it was 100% sure it was anchovi.

So, so you you always have to be a little skeptic to the answer. Yeah. And at Clint, we is is our garden and the nursery and and when we bought it, I thought it's it's too small.

I need something more. So, I've been looking for a a small farm for some years. And two years ago, we found this.

And when I look on the Google uh pictures, there was like one bail on every meadow. So, this is really bad. This is a good farm.

We we need this. It was mainly moss and a few species. Really poor sandy soil.

Uh and there was a house. So, we have renovated the house for students so they can stay there. And then it's a six hectar playground uh where I want to create habitat for insect and triing different things.

So all the different meadows uh we're doing different thing on the top left we're doing uh we're cutting that in late autumn. Uh some areas where there is a lot of weeds we trim them down several times a year to have this bare soil and at the same time getting rid of the weeds after a while. All the wood we cut down, we just put them in piles building roads but only using the the soil from the site and also the maintenance will be different from the different areas.

Uh so on the south side we burn it in the spring. Some areas we cut with machines. Some we are siving and the ravine we dig down three meter and made this 5 m tall hills.

So it's all your existing soil and that the valley with the digger did in less than two days. So you can do quite a lot with a big digger. Yeah.

But it will be really interesting to follow this to see what's happening and how little maintenance you have to put into it to still get a a good result. Yeah. And having this like on the 2 m clay walls and a big variation making piles and playing around and observing what's happening.

Yeah, we have the students staying there and it's a hard work being at Clint. They're sitting here and playing with sand and and we also invite other companies that are doing good things. Darkening and they are doing lot of meadow restoration and sing courses and so we're working a lot together with other small interesting companies and Michael entomologist.

So, so, so people like this is so important for the future. He's coming there in he's doing a survey this first year to see what's there before we do too much. I think we really need people like him for the future.

all these experts in fungus and insects and whatever because most people in here we just we're good at some things but I always someone that is better and I can't do know everything about insects and exactly what I did but I can ask Mel because he knows most of them so I think the the future is for the nerds and the experts because they have the knowledge and we have to learn from Um we're also doing some quite big scale project. Uh this is a sound barrier uh in south of Malma and they had a a barrier already but it it was a it's gravel in the in the middle and then it was covered with soil and I wanted to make it higher. Uh, and they had another pile of sand or gravel.

So, we could scrape off all the good soil and just put that in the bottom of the the wall. And then we build up with gravel and then cover it with a layer of sand between 20 and 10 cm. But alo adding these islands of different material with fine sand and coarse sand and stones.

And then we planted about thousand woody plants and sewed 60 kilos of seeds in 17 different seed mixes because there's so much variation on the hill. Down in the bottom there is this wet ditches and you have this windy crest on the west side and the east side and if the plant will only grow in this coarse gravel on the south side, there's no point of sewing it on the north side. So then you're just waiting seized.

So doing a special mix for every area and and then some plants is in every mix but you really need this mixture. So about 300 different species and the deal to start with was no maintenance and we did it uh six years ago and I haven't spent a minute on it. Yeah.

And most of the seeds we collect ourselves. Uh so we collect about 100 kilos of seeds every year from the garden and roadsides and yeah everywhere. So EKA's laundry baskets are perfect for seed collecting and then we can just collect them really quick in the summer and then we clean them in the winter when it's the weather is too bad to be outside.

Yeah. We sewed it in September and it was this perfect winter mild autumn. not too cold in winter.

I think almost everything germinated and survived. I also see the the number of species and plants in in just a very small area. It's more than was it 11 pots per square meter?

Uh we it's a lot more when you're sewing. And it was a public project and the public like color. Uh this is not nothing for insects.

It's very just a few species. Not very interesting species either, but it's colorful and nice and people like it. So all areas that was close to parkings and pathways, we added a lot of color to it for the people to like it.

And then we did more interesting areas for insects on other sides. So this is more what the insects want. This variation in the landscape with bare sand and a big variation in the plants and genus and and I think if it looked like this along the parking people would probably complain and thinking that the city is wasting money on this because this will occur anyway.

So give them color and they are happy the first year and the next year they will forget about it anyways. Then they have other things to focus on. And we go there every year with Michael to to study it and see how it develops.

So this is after six years with no maintenance. They haven't cut down anything. It's all left on the site, but it's a very dry and windy place in southwest Sweden.

So the the climate is good. It it slows everything down. If you did it in Scotland, it will yeah turn into grass much quicker.

So a dry climate is is very good. But you can really do this like almost no maintenance plantings if you just make them poor enough and the succession will be extremely slow. And there's a lot of rare insects moving in.

And if I did it again, I would add a lot more dead wood or me structures to it and get a more variation into it. But that's also quite easy to do afterwards. If you just have the landscape, you can just add things.

And by the bus station, we added some more garden plants to make it a little more gardenlike, but also nice edges and framing the wild so it don't look too messy. And then there's more people liking it. And here they do a little bit of maintenance.

They cut it down in the winter and take away Yeah, most of the organic material, but that's the only maintenance they they do. So, I would guess they are spending a few hours a year on a planting like this. It's just too dry for weeds and if there are any, they are just hidden with everything else.

And then in the late summer, there's a lot of nice seed heads and they stay over winter and then they cut it down in early spring. Yeah. And I'm always mixing plants from all over the world to get a much longer flowering season.

But sometimes uh the city only want natives and this is a planting with only natives and the ornamental value goes down quite quickly. Um, but this was in in a industrial site. Uh, and it didn't it wasn't that important that the public would like it.

Uh, and for the insect it's perfect. They like suffering plants then they can't resist them as much. And so for biodiversity this is good, but for ornamental value it's maybe not the best.

Also just a lot of hills on gravel. uh different material from fine sand to coarse sand. So you have to think we're doing if you do this in the city center I think there will be very few people liking it.

Maybe a few of you but um I think most people wouldn't. So you have to think where you do this wild plantings. It has to fit into the surroundings and the landscape.

But there is places for this too. And the project we did in her, it was a farmland and they going to build a new housing area and we had an extremely low budget. Uh, and I thought we spent all the money on the diggers because that's the most important.

Uh, we didn't have any drawings. There was a sketch just roughly what I wanted, but we never followed it. uh and all the soil we got from the the building projects.

So they were and instead of paying to get rid of it or driving it away to other places, they could just dump it here for us. So we get all the soil, all the stones for free. So it was just and they want to make a it should be a rain garden.

It should be an interesting landscape for people and beautiful and biodiversity and all of that and no budget. Uh it was just a ditch when we started and this is one week later. Uh every day the Anton from the city he came there and made a drawing while we were building.

So in the end of the week he he had a map how it what we had. So, this is what two diggers did in a week. And then we just added pathways and planted about 2,000 woody plants there and sewed it.

And this whole project costed about uh £15,000, including pathways and diggers and plants and seeds and all of it. You wouldn't even get a a paper from a architect for that money. Uh and it will be a mess.

We're just using all this uh soil from the farmland. It's just full of every weed. Uh so we sewed in a mixture of annuals but also these long live perennials.

The first year it looks quite okay. There's quite a lot of flowers with the weeds. I think the second year it will be mostly weeds.

People will not like it. But they haven't built the house yet. So it doesn't matter because and then it will be full of shrubs.

So then after five years we will go in and decide what we want to keep. We planted much more trees than we want there. And then we can just decide will shall we keep the oak or the birch or hazel or shall it be open and that's a decision decision you can do five years later and and then in after 30 years you might get or 50 you will have a oak forest or what you decide to do with it.

So, it's a really long time process, but with the landscape, you have a lot of opportunities to do things what you want later, but you could spend all the money on benches and a few big trees and pathways and then you still just have a flat landscape and no variation and no opportunities. Just put the money on the landscape and then you can fix it later or just leave it. Uh, we tried to keep all the the sandy soil for the south side.

So we did some quite tall hills. I think about six me tall and up on them we just sew the these dryland species. And this looks really promising the first year.

If it looked like a failure then you know it's good. If it's green then you you then you failed because this will be a really slow process. Five years later it will still be a lot of flowers but all the green areas that will just be grass.

So try to create as bad conditions as possible and it will be a very slow process and then you can decide what you do and maybe only put all the maintenance on these dry areas to keep them open and colorful and then let the other area be a forest and yeah so the project is start down here and to the oaks in the background. The total is uh 3,000 not about three hectars and it costed uh 155 no 550 55,000 for the whole landscape. So you can do a lot with a very little money.

And we had a volunteer this summer and he said that the industry should be a shame that not everybody work like this. And I totally agree. we're wasting far too much money and then you're designing something that you have to import for from China or when you have material that you could use.

But you can't you can't draw this in beforehand because you don't know what you find until you start digging. So it's more having a vision. This is the kind of landscape we want to have and then you start digging and oh we find out this and then we might do this instead or that.

So be very open just having an idea and then you're working with the things you have and suddenly you get thousand lorries with sand or something because someone want to get rid of it and then oh we make another hill or we do that instead just be open and don't so skip your egos and work with the site instead and the maintenance is a and a disturbance. It would be great if the cities was full of cows, but it's a little difficult, but we can do the same things. Instead of buffaloos, just invite Metallica and 30,000 headbangers.

They are exactly like a buffalo herd or just a bicycle track or volleyball field and all the insect would love to live on the edges. And so you have to find a using people instead of cattle or there's always other ways to do it and stop doing this. You have this perfect limestone grally soil that really poor and then adding pete on it and to reduce the weeds they put a carpet over it and then they make holes and plant in it.

So they're just destroying the site and they will have a maintenance problem for the next 50 years instead of just using the landscape and it's nice shapes and it could be beautiful meadows and is even worse. They have this perfect pile of gravel limestone and then they're doing these raised beds with with Pete and then they're planting draw tolerant plant that hate Pete and the plants that would like Pete that hate this dry conditions. So they're just taking away all opportunities to grow something here and the maintenance is massive and the watering and they have to fill up with new Pete every year because it's just disappearing.

So, use the use the gravel. It's perfect. And go out of your office.

This is where the magic happens. Uh David uh he has a small digger and when we make a drawing is is something like that. It's in Swedish, but I think you get it.

Yes. I show this to him. Can you build this?

And he knows exactly how to put a row of stones much better than I do. So, he don't need more than that. And if there is any questions, you can just ask me.

And and Gustav is a project leader from a city and he's always out on the sides every day and talking with landscapers and changing things all the time. And when the landscape is ready, I I go there and see what I have done and then I decide what plant I think is suitable for the area. I think my time is out, but yeah.

Oh, thank you so much.