a lot of people have sort of kept Faith with the president there's been a logic to a lot of what he has done and he's had a lot of support from his senators and his administration on his course of action trying to get people to the negotiating table I think that is starting to fragment uh because of the pause to assistance and particularly intelligence sharing he's had a lot of criticism from quite a number of Republican Senators this time last week you will remember that we had the shocking showdown between presidents Trump and zalinski in
the Oval Office that evident Rift between the leaders was widened on Monday night when Donald Trump paused the shipments of military equipment to Ukraine which was in turn followed up on Wednesday with confirmation that the US had paused intelligence sharing with keev yesterday Donald Trump's Ukraine Envoy General Keith Kellogg was asked to explain why they'd taken these measures the best way I can describe it is sort of like hitting a mule with a 2x4 across the nose you got their attention and it's very it is significant obviously because of the of the of the support
that we give okay but it's one way to to get your attention to do it but it's a pause it's not an end and it's then up to them to to do it and and I know that the Allied partners are that has anything to do with us support as well are kind of paused as well so any anytime as a military person anytime you displace assets primarily from the intelligence Community it's it's pretty significant well president zalinsky posted on X on Monday saying last week's meeting had been regrettable and in the last hour speaking
from the Oval Office Donald Trump said this when he was asked if Russia was taking advantage of the US pors and intelligence support for Ukraine I think he wants to get it stopped and settled and I think he's hitting them harder than than he's been hitting him and I think probably anybody in that position would be doing that right right now he wants to get it ended and I think Ukraine wants to get it ended but I don't see it's it's crazy they're they're taking tremendous punishment I don't quite get it but I suspect Michael
he probably wants to get it ended well officials from both sides are due to take part in talks in Saudi Arabia next week hard to know where to begin and Penny let me begin with you because we've had that we had that post on Truth social which Donald Trump was talking about sanctions on Russia he didn't really follow through on that in the overal office he started talking about how you know he trusted Putin wanted peace um he understood why Putin was doing what he was doing so it didn't he didn't really sort of follow
up on that as perhaps Ukraine might have wanted him to uh but where are we in the world order and in Trump's world order it's very brave of you Kathy to tune into the Oval Office uh since having had what happened last week look I think I was getting a bit of PTSD I don't know about you I um look I think a lot of people have sort of kept Faith with the president there's been a logic to a lot of what he has done and he's had a lot of support from his senators and
his administration on his course of action trying to get people to the negotiating table I think that is starting to fragment uh because of the pause to assistance and particularly intelligent sharing he's had a lot of criticism from quite a number of Republicans Senators including uh Lindsey Graham who was after last week's incident in the oal office extremely supportive and loyal of the president but even he has said uh that he has concerns around this and Russia are exploiting this I mean in the last 24 hours we've had a really an escalation of attacks on
Odessa port on energy infrastructure civilians have been killed including uh a number of children and it seems that unsurprisingly uh Putin is really exploiting uh this additional vulnerability that the ukrainians have the the onus now is on the president he has got everything he wants he's got everyone where he wants them he now has to come up with the goods and bring Russia to the negotiating table but we seemen a long way off a ceasefire or prisoners being returned or all those many many children who were abducted and taken into Russia being brought home so
it's a it's a depressing situation but the president now has really got to come up with the goods and and do you so do you think that opposition amongst some of his Republican colleagues might have informed what seemed to be a slight change of TAC today from Donald Trump well look he sent out that tweet the clip you've just shown from the Oval Office he was very keen to talk about domestic priorities he would when he was asked about Ukraine he would pivot back on to the domestic agenda and point to his successes there but
really Ukraine is is absolutely Central to what is on his desk now and uh Russia does not seem to be responding in the way that perhaps he would have hoped and if this continues if Russia continues to exploit this additional weakness that Ukraine has then uh he's got to take some kind of action because it is uh uh it's monstrous taking place George FS I think penny is a little more optimistic than I am uh uh president Trump uh changed his mind from one day to the next uh a week or so ago now he's
changing his mind within a day on tariffs uh they're on at the beginning of the day and off at the end of the day as far as uh Canada and Mexico is concerned and I thought uh he couldn't be uh trumped as it were you couldn't Trump trump without landish statements until J D Vance then spoke about some random country uh who uh haven't fought Wars for 20 or 30 years and meaning either France or the United Kingdom when we and all the other countries went to their aid under Section Five of the uh NATO
treaty after 911 and for 457 British people were killed fighting to in Afghanistan in support of the Americans and it really outrageous uh the things that they are saying and doing and all that I am really uh grateful for is that we have a a really uh impressive prime minister at the moment with Kier starmer imagine if it had been Boris Johnson or Liz truss in charge the chaos that it would have been over the last last few weeks Penny do you agree that K is doing a good job so look I think on The
Talk softly carry a big stick test um on The Talk softly the prime minister is doing really well I think he's had some really good diplomatic triumphs and uh I think that the the summit at the weekend was was excellent in terms of moving Europe into the right place to step up on defense where I want to see more uh is on the big stick and he has announced some more defense spending but we have to do a lot more we we really do need an emergency defense preparation program George Robertson will shortly come forward
with his defense review I'm quite sure it will look at many of these issues but we have to realistically we have to find at least an extra 20 billion and that sounds a tall order we're carrying a lot of debt our public services are still recovering from the legacy of the pandemic but we have to find it because uh if we do not we will not be able to mount the kind of show of force that is going to deter Putin from future action but we are finding it and we're not finding it at the
moment out of taxpayers money we're finding it out of frozen Russian assets and the particularly on the uh interest on that well George I want to come on to that in just a bit because I I do want to sort of segue into um what's happening in Europe because this breakdown in relations across the Atlantic has made the efforts to find a European response all the more urgent so on Sunday K starma hosted a summit of European leaders in London where he announced plans to provide troops on the ground in Ukraine after the war ends
we will go further to develop a coalition of the willing to defend a deal in Ukraine and to guarantee the peace earlier in the week friederick MZ who's expected to become the next German Chancellor announced he'd do whatever it took to defend Europe lifting the constitutional debt break which has previously limited the federal deficit and European leaders met in Brussels yesterday agreeing to significantly increase defense spending um George were you encouraged by what you heard there or is it again an instance where they're talking big the EU and the UK indeed but the the action
isn't there to underpin it and won't be for several years it is there and I was really encouraged I mean it remarkable that this has United Europe in a way that I never expected and had really encouraging we've seen Norway agree to double the amount of money they're spending we've seen Turkey saying we want to get in on the ACT we want to be involved and all 27 countries of the European Union yesterday agreed including Hungary and Slovakia which surprised me that they came in on it and that was very very effective the other thing
is we were we're hearing now that the United States are withdrawing their uh uh intelligence help French intelligence are still helping them and also British intelligence I I I was on the intelligence and security committee for a number of years and it's my view the gchq is better than its American equivalent well it hasn't done much good over the last 24 hours though has it maybe not intelligent enough well it it is it it hasn't been able to do all the things that we might have done in terms of warning uh the ukrainians and we
need to get more mized to do that but of course that hasn't been the case unfortunately the Russians are pounding Ukraine which is really astonishing when you think about it I it's it's very worrying uh the the position of Donald Trump you know there are a lot of suggestions that he's an agent of the of the Russians uh with this code named krnov and uh there are a lot of evidence to uh a lot of Back stories to support that now I don't know it is the case well people people I mean very very worrying
people suggest he's he's an unofficial Russian asset and I don't think people are seriously thinking the Russians are running the US president well you know comprometedor there are stories I don't know the truth but there are stories about it all right Penny what do you think about what George was saying there about the EU talking big but actually underpinning it without action for the first time well look I I have been encouraged by a lot of what I've heard coming out of Europe um I was very struck by macron's comments regarding extending the nuclear deterrent
to protect other European nations that is highly significant and they are talking about now the the kinds of levels of money that are going to be required but also critically working together to spend it well um I mean I still hope that there is a root back into procurement for the US I think we are stronger together but if that is not the case then Europe has been very clear it will it will stand on its own um so that is good but we do need to keep this sustained action and Britain does need to
do our bit too um I mean I say to George I give full credit both to the Prime Minister and also to the defense secretary John Healey I think doing a very very good job but we've got to be frank about what we need to spend in the UK and it is that additional 20 billion um upwards that's what NATO says needs to be done and we've got to do it and the Chancellor's got a big challenge to do that but she's if she doesn't do it now the price we will have to pay in
a few years time will be unbearable and it will be I'm afraid in blood as well as treasure forgive me making a party political Point Penny but the last last time we were at 2.5% was with a labor government and it was the 14 years of the Tories that cut it and cut it and I'm glad you have to allow me Cassie to come George that the size of the black hole according to Rousy in the defense budget when we came in in 2010 was 71 billion so um I think try and get back to
the consensus that's required to help ukra
