you guys Jehovah's Witnesses all right you guys cold it's cold outside yeah it's a little chilly um I'm Jeff hi Jeff nice to meet you guys why why are you guys Jehovah's Witnesses why'd you make that decision well sorry I'm gonna get safe under here sorry yeah all because we go by the Bible and we know that it's accurate and true and we know you know you know a lot of people um discredited the Bible taking God's name out of it and so on I mean there's there's many reasons but yeah definitely the Bible is
the key okay pretty much the same my parents started studying the Bible when I was about three so um pretty much raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses but that didn't mean I couldn't believe um but yeah just the the Bible truth and that it's the right way to go okay right on so how long have you been so pretty much since you were little same yeah here in Utah I grew up in Southern California okay all right I grew up in Washington Washington State okay all right how about you I'm from all over my dad
was military so I'm all over all over the world DC before he before I actually live in Arizona so we're just visiting right now um came at the wrong time to visit it's gold so um I I one thing I really respect about my friends who have been Jehovah's Witnesses is the the passion about the Bible and we believe the Bible and those sorts of things but what I just I'm curious because I would love to talk to you guys and see what you guys believe about this what would you guys say about sort of
the new world translations different translation uh than almost every single translation out there in terms of coming from the Hebrew or the Greek translation into English right the Watchtower is very very different so why why do you accept as Jehovah's Witnesses who I know are passionate and zealous why do you accept the new world translations translation when it IT disagrees so much with every other English translation yeah does it position the reason we used to know is a new world is because surprise me where and like the King James Elise the Old King James they
used to put in there where it's Capital Lord or Capital right that's where Jehovah's name should be um and so when it you know when you talk about truth and translations that's one of the biggest things and as far as any other differences they're really there there might be some but quite honestly the New World Translation has gone back to the oldest manuscripts that they can find and what it says in the original language and being translated into English Okay is fine another reason too is like with the King James there's a lot of the
bees thighs vows very old English no yeah yeah it's very it's a good translation but it's so foreign to us today and different and we refer to the American Bible the um oh what are some of the animals yeah there's many bibles that we will refer to if it you know like in a a public talk or something if you're going to get the point across a little bit more where it's even more simplified words right than the New World Translation so we have no objection to the viable period okay I'm glad to hear that
I'm glad to hear that it's very different than I think a lot of Jehovah's Witness friends have said in the past there seems to be sort of a shift in terms of more of a comfort level today with some of the more Modern English translations and maybe even in the 90s so I guess my main question would be I'm a Christian and so my question is we really disagree on who Jesus is and what the gospel is so Charlie I'm sure you know the history of your organization Charles Hayes Russell judge Rutherford you know when
they they came out and they started talking about Jesus they they gave a different story about who Jesus is they called Jesus the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God they really went back to what was an old heresy that was responded to in the 4th century and that was arianism the idea that Jesus was created by the father you guys do believe that correct yeah and I think that would be one of the main points and I just I'm sharing this with you because I care about you I love your community when we talk
about translations the New World Translation actually changes passages specifically about Jesus that he's the creator of all things uncreated there's a couple places Colossians chapter one do you have that in the New World yeah I just give you an example so something you can think about and just I would encourage you just to go just to go investigate sure in Colossians chapter one there's a good example [Music] well you can start in verse 15 and just you can take a look at some there's some um uh Greek Interlinear translations you could look at in the
in online where you can the Greek is alongside the English you don't need to know Greek to to basically work through it but it'll show you the Greek text behind the English text and so I'll read this okay and this is a kind of a standard English translation from the Greek text and you can follow along so you can see it says in verse 15. he that's Jesus is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation and the word they're first born and you can look this up as protonticas in the Greek
it doesn't mean first in order of creation it's a it's a term of he's the heir Israel was called God's firstborn David is called God's firstborn so when Jesus is called the firstborn it doesn't mean first in order of creation it means like David like Israel God's the air of all things but anyway for by him all things were created in heaven and on Earth visible and invisible whether Thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things were created through him and for him what does the new world say starting at 15 it's he is
the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation um because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on Earth the things visible and the things invisible whether they are Thrones or Lordships or governments or authorities all other things have been created through him and for him did you notice that so all other things so I'm assuming that you are trinitarian oh yeah yeah so you know [Music] um yeah I wish I can remember it it is in Corinthians Paul talked about um you know Jesus sure um um
about Jesus being the high priest that's right but and that was after he was here on Earth because he was tested in all things as a man yes as a man yeah so as a high priest and King it's still not saying that he's almighty God except that he called himself God he received worship then Apostles call him God the Old Testament calls him the Mighty God which is an exclusive title of Jehovah the Mighty God El Gabor and Jesus is called el Gabor the Mighty God but but that text there just as an example
because I was talking about the difference in Translation because I love your community so much and many many of you aren't aware examples like that were the Watchtower began teaching a different Jesus than scripture teaches in history had had given us actually Jesus himself said that he was the son of God right yes he's the Eternal son to be a son you're not equal well that's his position he did he did the text here actually says that he was equal with God and and I I mean I that maybe in that version of the Bible
but you can go to the Greek yourself and you can you can see it going back and I don't have the Interlinear on here well and then on John 3 16 2 only begotten yeah but the word uh begotten there is monogamous it means unique and one of a kind not created monogamous is the unique and one of a kind so why couldn't you've been created Jesus because attacks explicitly says he wasn't so I'll give an example so first of all there's an example of the Watchtower adding words to the text to make Jesus not
the creator of all things where the text actually says all things the Watchtower placed in the words all other things and no you'll you can look this up please do don't take my word for it I'm a stranger to you right now go look it up later and you'll see that the the other is an addition made by the Watchtower that's not in the Greek text you talked about going back to the originals we have thousands and thousands of copies of the Greek manuscript pieces and copies who have been translated to us on the earth
and he um he died yeah who resurrected him well the text actually says sorry I'll wait for this to pass by so you got to you asked a question about the Trinity right one being of God the Bible teaches there's only one God and yet the Bible teaches the father is God it teaches that Jesus is God it teaches the Holy Spirit as God and yet there are three persons one being of God right the Bible says that the father raises Jesus from the dead you agree with that right but Jesus when he was asked
a question or when he was challenged with the temple situation he says destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up again that's what Jesus said and then it says in the text he was speaking of the Temple of his body so he says to the Jews of his day destroy this temple in three days I will raise it up again so the Bible says the father raised Jesus from the dead the Bible says Jesus raised himself from the dead the Bible says the spirit raised Jesus from the dead the Bible just
says God raised Jesus from the dead that's that's an example of how you get trinitarian belief is that the Bible teaches try Unity One God one being about three Eternal persons um but and it teaches that Jesus is equal with the father that he shares the glory of the father you know the text in John 17 where he's praying his high Priestly prayer he says that he wants to go back to the father with the glory that he had before the world began he shared that Glory with the father can I commend you guys on
something what I love about Jehovah's Witnesses is just what you're doing right now it's commendable is that if we're having a conversation you're telling me I'm going to the text when I say hey John 17 says this you immediately start going to the text which is and I mean this sincerely it's commendable because Mormons exactly Mormons Latter-day Saints they don't have that commitment that you guys have right now as I say where where does it say that where does it say that as heck so an example of when you ask the question about the trinity
in John 17 he says father the hour has come glorify your son to the Sun May glorify you since you have given him authority over All Flesh to give eternal life to all whom you have given him and this is eternal life to that they know you the only true God in Jesus Christ whom you have sent I glorified you on Earth having accomplished the work that you gave me to do and now father glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed so if he's equal
to God yeah how is he being glorified I mean you know actually our Bibles is pretty much the same thing yeah yeah um so when when you're talking about Jesus saying God please glorify me what I mean it's a good question yeah if it's the same person same God not same person oh well Jesus isn't the father that's one thing Jehovah's Witnesses are often taught is that Christians teach that Jesus is the father okay the Bible doesn't teach you okay explain the Trinity and well I mean just the shell of the Trinity sure to me
because I know that I've talked to people who've said they believed in the Trinity and it's not what true proletarians believe so unfortunately unfortunately live in a culture where there's a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses who are ignorant about their own Theology and there's also a lot of Christians professing Christians who are also very ignorant about their own theology that they say they believe so the Bible says something that we would we would all agree on and that there's just only one God right right so before me there was no God form neither shall I be
after me Isaiah 43 10 44 6 44 8 Shema Israel their hero Israel the Lord Our God the Lord is one there is only one God now we would agree with that common ground on that right but we would also agree that the Bible calls the father God right right we that's that's a given right but the scripture also teaches that Jesus is God he took the Divine name of God upon himself the Jews knew exactly what he was saying when he did uh because they picked up stones to kill him as in John 8
where he says before Abraham was I go Amy I am yeah he takes the name of God uh from the famous scene of the burning bush and he calls himself the I am and they picked up stones to kill him because he he was taking the Divine name of God in John 10 two chapters later he says many good works have I shown you from the father for which of these do you Stone me they said for your good works we Stone you not but for blasphemy and that you being a man make yourself God
exactly but that was the the Jews saying that he was making himself God it wasn't Jesus oh he didn't know he had just done it he just said I am with with I am I I I'm not all I can say about that is of course Jesus was with God long before Moses was ever on earth and so yes he's seen everything that Moses did he you know was there he called himself the I am though well I you know I I'd have I have to brush up I'm like that's okay no no no it's
okay don't feel good don't feel obligated you still live in Colorado where Trinity is huge so I couldn't well it has been for the whole history of the Christian church but when you think about what Jesus was really saying is yes he's the I am because he was created Jehovah God created him and he went through him to do everything else that he did so are they equal no scripture says scripture says that Paul says they were you and you guys believe the Bible in Philippians chapter 2 um in Philippians chapter 2 it actually says
explicitly that he was equal before the Incarnation which gets to your question in terms of how is he being glorified share with the glory that he shared before the world but was um and it's in Philippians chapter 2 and it starts in verse four it says lead each of you look not only to his own interest but also to the interests of others have this mind among yourselves which is yours in Christ Jesus we're talking about Jesus who though he was in the form of God the very form of God he did not consider equality
with God a thing to be grasped or held on to but he emptied himself and he took upon the form of a servant so there's the Incarnation there is that Jesus was equal with God and he took upon the form of a servant and he humbled himself and became obedient to death even to death on the cross so the question was equality Paul explicitly says Jesus was equal to the father so in Colossians 1 15 it says he is the image of the exact imprints of his nature okay so he shares the same nature as
the father that actually that verse proves the Christian's point so he's the image of the invisible God he shared the very nature of God okay um you have a son thank you and he is splitting image well kinda he looks a little different but yeah yeah I'll get you from me no I know I have five kids how many do you have I only have one okay um and she's a girl and she doesn't look nothing like that although some people say she does um but anyways he's a splitting image of you so is he
but that's that's the problem with that is we're using the English language there whereas if you look at that text and what he was getting at the image of the invisible God he's the exact imprint of the father's nature and so Jesus is the same nature as the father there's only one God by Nature shared by three Eternal persons Father Son and Holy Spirit that text in Philippians says that Jesus is equal to the father but he did not consider it something to be held on to but he emptied himself and became a servant there's
the Incarnation God becoming flesh and in John 1 you know the famous passage it's another example though of John chapter one in the beginning was the word heard of or read in the book truth in Translation yes a long time ago it is not put out by us it's by some theology in Arizona I believe in Phoenix anyway some college [Music] um he digs into several different Bibles and he goes into exactly what you're talking about as far as shelves Witnesses changing the Bible yeah to our um beliefs and it it you should read it
I I read it I've read it a long time ago that's an older older book that I'm aware of it's been around for a long time yeah yeah um but it just really he takes a lot of these doctrines these scriptures and really goes through them and why not I mean he finds fault in every every Bible but he did well no English translation is perfect for sure for sure but he did say that as far as of or religious organization changing the Bible to their beliefs Jehovah's Witnesses have not but they but they have
though because I give an example of Colossians chapter one where they actually added words that distort the meaning of the text in Colossians 1 add all other things correct just wanted to commend you and say thanks for your work okay it's really cool stuff and I understand where you're coming from as well this is a beautiful dialogue here the Bible the scriptures and you know how it's kind of like the truth of crafting out of the both of you and I think you guys can learn a lot from him and also just see his perspective
on things as well thanks for the blessing thanks for the blessing yeah um thank you very much sir uh in the beginning was the word and the Word was with God and the Word was God so in the Greek because you mentioned Christ and how far back he goes you can check me on this please look it up in the beginning is in the Greek and RK ain't halagos now that might not mean anything to you guys not right except an Arcane halogos means as far back as you go with no reference point to stopping
forever ago is what the Greek is saying the word the word was with the word was there so that's contrary to the the watchtower's doctrine on Jesus the Watchtower believes that Jesus was created right in the beginning was the word it means that Jesus was already there from all eternity and he was look at this he was with God the father and the Word was God everything God was the word was so God in there you have a capital G and in our translation it's a lower G on the last Point yes yes but how
many gods are there how many true gods are there there's only one true so the text says the the interesting thing is is when you talk about um God as as what you just talked about is disease is being referred to a god he your I agree with you he was referred to as a god however he was never referred to as almighty God but then you go back to the word Elohim um that word means god in all the way from almighty God all the way down to the Pharaoh the judges of Israel the
judges of Israel we were even called Elohim those there's a lot of what they called Gods except they're not talking about the almighty God but you can see where I I hear your point and you're you're on to something I think important but except that John makes it very clear that he is talking about the true God because the Texas right he is talking about the true God because it says he was in the beginning with God all things are made through him Jesus right and without him nothing was made that has been made I'm
just talking about two people two persons two yes very good yes that's that's what the Bible teaches okay so what we believe is Jehovah God yeah his son Jesus yes or the word because he was the word yep and so it's two different people you believe in two beings you believe in two beings two persons right you and your son are two beings two persons right the scriptures teach there's only one being of God but it teaches that Jesus is the Mighty God that's what scripture teaches and he's the creator of all things we do
different there well the text says and this is yeah I think you'll really appreciate this because the it's it's a name explicitly reserved for Jehovah and Isaiah 9 6 for to us a child is born to us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder it's prophecy of Jesus it says his name Shall be Called wonderful counselor those are names titles of Jehovah only Mighty God the word there is El Gabor now one chapter later same book one chapter later Jehovah is called The Mighty God Al Gabor and I'll show you
that here sorry this is a new Bible and the pages are all sticking together um forgive me there you go if you look in your you can look in your translation as well if you want to feel more comfortable Isaiah 10 starting in verse 20 it says but we'll lean on Jehovah the Holy One of Israel in truth a Remnant will return the remnant of Jacob two the Mighty God El Gabor that's that's the name of Jehovah but it says that the son who's coming is the Mighty God well he what he is a mighty
God but he's not all there's only one God though which is Jehovah God right and then yeah Jehovah is is El Gabor right he's the Mighty God yeah right what it says it says in Isaiah 9 that Jesus is the Mighty God it's a mighty God no you're adding those words though you know what what you could do if you're interested interested is you could take one of our invitations and I actually have one of these oh yeah I live in Phoenix okay I have one of these well we really encourage you to attend and
maybe that will give you a little bit of a different perspective no I appreciate you guys I and I I want to say that I I admire I admire very much the passion you guys have but I want to just say something this goes for me too in second Corinthians 11 the Apostle Paul says that he's worried about the early Church in Corinth he says because they have other jesuses and other gospels and he says you might even put up with these people who preach a different Jesus in the very first century of the church
Paul was warning the church against false christs false versions of Jesus that can't save you and you guys believe Jesus as the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God the Mormons believe that Jesus is Lucifer's brother one of elohim's spirit Offspring with his polygamous wives and the pre-existence the Bible teaches you know more than I do the Bible teaches and the the early the church has always believed that the there was only one God eternally existed in three persons that's a different Jesus but Jesus you did refer to John 17 3 yeah it says come
to know the only true God right of his son Jesus Christ that's how Jesus as the God man speaks about the father and the very next verse he says that he is going to receive the same Glory the glory of Jehovah that he shared with Jehovah before the world was there's only one God he doesn't share his glory he says with anybody else but Jesus shares That Glory Jehovah says he doesn't share his glory with anybody else and Jesus said he shared it so he is he is Jehovah two different things persons not beings one
being of God two persons your one being your one being I'm one being but you're one being and one person one being and one person we're all separate beings and one person the Bible teaches there's only one God we agree with that one being of God who eternally exists as father Son and Holy Spirit Jesus is the Eternal God and the key issue here is if you and I come to a Christ that doesn't exist you come into a Christ that can't save you because there's only one Jesus we absolutely believe that he exists and
it's only but which one the son the one the the Eternal son or the created the created first Offspring of of of Jehovah because the Bible teaches Jesus existed from all eternity we could probably disagree I'll say you absolutely know your Bible and that's that's commendable because so many people jokes yeah and so we do I appreciate them I appreciate that blessing and I want you guys know that I care for you I I truly do love you as image bearers of God and and you believe that I'm lost and I believe that you're lost
and you believe that I'm believing in a false god with the Trinity and you and I believe you're believing in a false Christ the key issue here is though is this is that who Jesus is matters the most because he's the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by him this there's also a public talk yeah um on the second Sunday yeah I actually have attention I've attended one of those in Phoenix so actually it's two times I've gone to those just to create relationships and and talk and have
a dialogue I appreciate your community so much because you truly do believe what you say you believe and you sacrifice for it you stand out here in the freezing cold to do this so I want you to know we're doing a shift change right here I want you to know as as much as we disagree I honor you and your passion but I believe that you're passionately deceived and wrong and you believe that about me so we're okay um I want you to know the true Christ and and just consider one thing go investigate this
because the information is out there for you to look at the Bible teaches in Deuteronomy 18 that the way you know a prophet is a false prophet or a real one is if they have false prophecies even one if Jesus had a single false prophecy we are commanded by God to reject him as a false prophet a single false prophecy that goes that's the rule Deuteronomy 18. if you have a single false prophecy God says that's how you know they're not the prophet of God and you guys I'm sure are aware of the incessant false
prophecies of the Watchtower from um from the very beginning from Rutherford to Charles Tays Russell I mean your organization lost a number of of Witnesses in the 70s because of false prophecy so you're so if well well actually that wasn't prophecy you can look into it hot people thought it was prop people because you're doing a shift change yeah but just I want to encourage you that's the test it applies to all prophets go look into it if there's a single false prophecy you're a false prophet so look and test those profits guys thank you
for talking to me God bless you
