My decision I was quitting my job and I was doing this I met Jess on a shoot I was watching do brows we were just talking about like this product that needed to happen I was like I wonder if Jess wants to launch a business yeah I sent her an email like hey really random I know we were talking about this idea the other day do you want to start a business no worries if not And I was like well this is just disaster we launched a product and we rebranded the company in a pandemic
and it just blew up we couldn't even get the stock good morning I got announced I got like emails of all of our retailers we had about like half a million pounds of purchase orders canceled within two hours [Music] straight into it fine I feel like we're Yeah we're already going yeah um so thank you so much for joining me no thank you so much for having me um for people listening we've had a bit of a scheduling mix up this morning and Jenna has had to rush she was such a rush to get here
um and so we're going kind of straight into this um but I've been so excited for this podcast episode because I feel like we have a lot to talk about Um and you've just done absolutely incredibly it's been so great to watch um and I can't wait to kind of dive into it so for people who either don't know you or kind of haven't seen your entire career trajectory could you just give us like a little Whistle Stop tour of your career from the beginning to now definitely so I went to Manchester there studied international
fashion marketing on my placement year I went to New York worked at Hugo Boss in the marketing Department and came back from this uni went to London went down a product development route worked for Chris for rare burn a menswear designer in product development then went to Amelia wixted and unite production development kind of the whole bit there and then moved to Burberry Port developer and and then 2016 I quit to have a fun summer and That Was Then the Gypsy Shrine and then fast forward seven years we sound like we have some similarities yeah
Ends up starting a business yeah and then yeah did the gypsych 2016 rebranded 2019 to Shrine and then 2020 launch refi with Jess amazing God you are very concise you said you've got word format you've not got word formats at all that was the most concise thing I've ever heard in my life how did you actually practice that one you're like in the mirror this morning no I absolutely love that so let's go back to so at the beginning was your Dream to be in was it kind of the fashion side in particular yeah I
think so I mean it can yet thrawn into University so soon I mean I was youngest in the year so what 19 no not even like 16 when you choose what do you even choose 16 when you choose what you want to go and do or 17 yeah and I was like I had no idea just fashion you know what I mean and I thought oh God do that did that uni liked it now yeah I did want to go down the fashion route and I love That side of things and then I went to
like Pro development I was like oh this is cool like making stuff so I think that was kind of my call in like the product development side of things um I love being in fashion I loved I love being at the small businesses though I love playing Christmas I love being Emily wixted you feel you're so important and sort of needed within that company and then I went to a big business and of course you can't operate If there's a big business like that and I just didn't have the same passion we it's so funny
because we often have people joining tala and it's what people say when they've kind of come from those big businesses that have obviously originally I guess been part of their like dream jobs to get into those places coming to somewhere smaller where you not only like mean a lot and like all of that it's the amount of work you put in versus the reward you Get is really visibly seen which like a lot of people have kind of said within their first few weeks they're like oh it's crazy like I do something and then I
actually see it which actually obviously in a bigger company isn't necessarily always the case definitely and I don't get me wrong big p companies are definitely for some people and small companies are definitely for other people I think it just completely depends on what you like and completely Agree people come they're like this isn't the right place I mean I'm like yeah and you probably need to be at a big corporation that has got it all sorted because we're still scrambling we're still figuring it out and unless you're adapted to change and willing to get
you like stuck into it then then isn't the right place and that is fine yeah do you know what I mean I think people still worry about not leaving a job and that is like not every place is Going to be the right place for you I think also what we don't realize is like just how many jobs and types of companies there are out there like when you're at school you think there's like five possible jobs that you could be in and then actually getting into the workforce you're like oh my God there's so
much and so many different types of the exact same job that can kind of play to your strengths as well so from when you kind of first went into fashion from The time that you started Shrine how long was that about the four years three years and when you so that fun summer you'd taken time off was that just to be able to have a bit of a break go traveling and no that was to start the Gypsy Shrine and so it was all planned it was all ready to go but I didn't think it
would actually become right a business I was like I'm literally gonna do some festivals literally have some fun and Then I'll get a real job again in September that was like my plan and then it was just the year where Instagram was just starting it was like what's happening with Tick Tock now what's happening with Instagram back then it was just you're going viral people just you were waking up had like 20 30 000 likes on pictures and I was like oh what didn't like yeah we weren't even thinking about content content wasn't even a
thing you're just like taking a Picture and posting it and you're like oh people love this and then we started selling the jewels like I started designing all that all in one Jewel and that was really cool because that wasn't really out at the time and I'd found a factory and then started working with Brands because like selfridges Topshop pretty little thing all these Brands they wanted to stock the product and then just before we I knew it it was like it was like okay this is happening Like this could be something I remember because
I remember seeing it absolutely blow up and it was kind of in those early days it must have been like it was when I was just I guess starting out um and obviously was using Instagram as a main tool and I remember like me and all of my friends seeing it um just like completely blow up which is so so cool and what made you I guess at that point where do you think that entrepreneurial Drive kind of came from in terms of you know just thinking I'm gonna stop my current job start a new
job but start a new business and then get back into work and after the summer yeah I think two hours Looking Back Now I just nothing fierced me back then I literally and I still do it now I don't wander on if I have an idea I make it happen within a second yeah my partner would like to think about this I'm like no we're doing it let's do it yeah so I think I was Just like I made a decision I was quitting my job and I was doing this and if it didn't work
I'd get another job like and it was just I just didn't make it any bigger than that do you know what I mean I didn't even tell my mom I remember I rang my mum in Australia I was like by the way I've quit my job she was like it ruined your life I was like the extreme um but I probably haven't but I was like I can't just get another job she was Like you used to get free dinners you've ruined your life she was like to her that was like the ultimate I was
like but it just shows that free didn't doesn't always make you wasn't about your job so yeah some new factors but it's so it is such a bold move and I think that one of the the one of the kind of beautiful things about being young and also having not gone into entrepreneurship for I think a lot of entrepreneurs looking back to just Say like one of their biggest strengths was their naivety and just being like honestly if I knew about all of the obstacles after this point then I probably would have given it like
more thought but actually just being like why wouldn't I try like as in literally just as simple as that taking the fear away and just being like yeah I'm gonna try if not I'm gonna come back in a few months definitely and I think the unknown I actually listened to another Podcasting of the week and it's in the unknown is so powerful and it's so true it's like you are not knowing how to do things everything's you can do anything like everything is the limit like now I know quite a lot so I'm like that
takes six months that takes a year would be fine like we can make it happen tomorrow right and that is fine yeah like we could do a pop-up shop next week yeah let's figure it out now it's like okay like there's a big process you have to Do all this it's like now we know the process it strips the fun a little bit when you don't know you can just be like yeah we can get that celebrity you said oh DM her yeah and you're like you just you just make it happen like you don't
know you just the unknown is powerful so I think don't worry about knowing everything because the less you know is actually good because you just you're written naive and you need naivete I mean you need an ID to just be like I Can do it I'll figure it out yeah I couldn't agree more and that the original idea for Shrine or the Gypsy Shrine as it was at the time um what was that when you kind of thought I'm gonna go and do these festivals was it Supply and glitter was it doing the Artistry yeah
it was literally just painting people like I am I used to do body paint on the side and that was kind of my passion I went did like the world body painting Championships in Austria I didn't actually compete there but I was just there yeah I saw it on and I'm just being like I love this when I was in New York I used to work for an artist on the evening at this body painting place and I remember just thinking like this is how do I make this my life um and that was kind
of my goal but yeah there was no plan with the Gypsy Shrine there was no brand there was no purpose we had there was no plan there was Nothing it was just like I'm having fun yeah and that's it which is so so cool how great for that to turn into something um so you know incredible now and then it was a few years from that point is that right until it got up to the kind of pandemic point which is probably I assume quite terrifying he was a festival kind of supplier no definitely I
mean we hadn't launched a fire yet I was obviously we were in the process of Starting to look at launch and refi um but we hadn't launched it I had a team we were starting to hire people for the potential launch of refi six months down the line um and then I got a call I was looking and watching the news one day I actually think I had go of myself because off for a week and I was just so ill and I was watching the news and I was like texting the girls at work
like oh my God this is crazy they're like yeah I know it's not A big deal because like when you watch the news you absorbing it don't you and then we just the morning I got announced I got like emails of all of our retailers we had about like half half a million pounds of purchase orders canceled within two hours like we've had the stock there it was ready to go that was a money that was going to kind of ride us through the summer pay for all of our staff here for the business do
you know what I mean like wholesale for Us is was a big driver.com it's also a driver but like wholesale was massive and also just you guaranteed that money you know what you can do in terms of infrastructure and everything God I was like where I see you kid yeah absolutely like what do we do and I remember just like be like God I've got stuff here I need to protect I was like and you could only follow people if they'd be within the company six months half my staff have Only just probably started in
the last three months so and I was like I'm not letting anyone go I was like we'll figure this out together yeah we ended up reducing everyone's salaries um like flat 20 across the board I was like if I do this guys We're In It Together We All Get to stare and everyone was really supportive everyone went for it and luckily I mean incent two months a month after we launched drop it and I was like well this is just Disaster we launched a product in a and we rebranded the company in a pandemic and
it just blew up like because it was hair dye is that right it was like which is a place to be in was that already the plan before the pandemic came yeah but it was just going to be like another little product that we it probably I mean someone was looking out for you yeah that was my Annie up there definitely I was like yeah oh my God and yeah I mean when we first launched it The Pandey I think it was most in the first few weeks we sold like three pink two purple yeah
I was like oh yeah like this will just be a little back burner product and then like we was selling 500 Pig 1 000 purple it was just like what is happy like we couldn't even get the stock and it was just like it was just incredible like to think that we almost could I could have walked away from the business right and because the business would have been shut down if it wasn't Far drop it and then we just did a complete Rebrand we're like here's the Future Let's actually build a proper strategy let's
go for it that's wild and I feel like when you look back at those things it's kind of like huh like that really happened and we actually managed to kind of like get through that and to have something in your back pocket I guess that was you were just able to really lean into is just I mean it's insane I mean it's a huge amount of Credit to you as well for diversifying even before that point um but I can imagine I can imagine that moment where you started watching the news and kind of having
those purchase orders canceled that must have just been absolutely terrifying yeah I remember I think it's a picture I'm just I think I even put like a crypto health for my story like that didn't even tea is like what do I even do and then luckily one of the girls that I knew through a Pretty little thing she like must have seen her story and just was like we're not canceling it we're still gonna stick by you and I was like thank you yeah and so she really helped but it was just yeah just absolutely
insane that you can just we couldn't just shut down overnight like and that is the wrist you know that's a risk you're running whenever you've got a business like it could something could happen you could shut down overnight and it's like Petrified and it's all well and good everyone being like all Diversified Diversified but actually like with a product business you don't want to be diversifying too much like you don't want to diversify so that if any world thing happens you'd be fine because also then you don't have the amount of focus that you really
need as a business to be able to have you know your core Mission and your why and all of those things for like the reason people come to you Um but obviously having that nine that's obviously a product that makes sense with the business as well um is just I mean just so great like thank God you kind of had that and um from that point how did you manage to keep up with the demand of this sudden surge I guess through lockdown I assume it was people on Tick Tock and stuff using it um
do you know or do you kind of know where that head eye boost kind of came From yeah I think it was just that trend of um the hairdresser shot we'll just do it all and figure it all out I mean I didn't even have merchandiser at the time so I mean we were just ordering stock and being like yeah okay thousand looks good sick then we'll be like oh there's no box left we need to order more it's so funny because I feel like you I at least look at so many businesses online and
I'm like God they Have it so together and every single founder or like CEO I ever talk to it's always like oh yeah we haven't quite figured that out or like there's like I've talked to people with you know billion dollar companies and they're like yeah we really haven't worked that one out yet and you're like huh everyone's business behind the scenes is just an absolute [ __ ] show but it's like the you know the different types of [ __ ] shows and everyone's pushing through it And actually I feel like entrepreneurship it always
has to be a kind of semi-shit show because you're evolving and moving that quickly that it needs to you know that's the way you kind of keep it afloat and keep making the right decisions definitely I mean you literally I mean you're probably in the same situation every day you just fixing a different problem like it's like today I'm fixing this problem then that will lead to another problem it's Like you just wanna leave it exactly it's like every day is different yeah I do um there was actually have you been watching the Kardashians on
Disney so I just sorry real like real tangent but I was watching that the other day um the like second episode and Kendall goes to get a brain scan and they're like oh you can see this is where you're like stressed and this is like all of this and I was like huh I'm imagining me getting this Frame scan and I'm like Apparently you can see the areas of your brain where it's like super stressed and the amount of like stress you have in your life and the amount like it kind of like goes up
and down and all of this and I was like I feel like that would not look very good for any business owner like just going in there because like as you say every single day it's another thing that pops up um and you're just like how do I deal with this one and every time you think It's gonna be less bad next time and then it happens you're like cool yeah it's not there's no handbook and everything is completely different as well like every everything yeah everything just changes it then evolves I mean how you
do something especially with Rafael now like oh my God like how we operate is not how we operate a year ago it's definitely not how we operated three years ago and it's like we're not supposed to offer in a year's time like We just constantly like okay we need to implement this process right we need to now do this okay we haven't thought of this right now and you think of this and it's like you could just kind of absolutely rub a hole with it and also you know good people come in and they have
great systems from previous places they've worked and all of that and I find each time you know each time someone comes in they go actually this is the way we do it and you're like how If we've been doing it any other way for all of this time but you just do and you evolve at the rate that you can evolve and I feel like that's one of the parts of it so when you decided to Rebrand Shrine what was the decision-making process behind that was that scary I can imagine having a business for a
good few years before that and then deciding to change that must have been a little terrifying yeah so I think again because when I started the Gypsy Shrine I I Didn't know what I was doing like yeah that's for real I had no clue I was just like figuring this out and had just I just had a lot of adrenaline and there was no plan there was nothing and then I knew it was Trend you know what I mean I knew that glitter on first Jules wasn't going to last forever and I also knew it
wasn't great for the planet and I think I didn't know that when I first started it but I started to realize that through like the customer being like hey do you Know this isn't good and I was like God actually I'm starting something that isn't that good though I was like I want to be better like we're all humans we learn as we go um so I was like okay movies I need to do if I'm gonna have this brand it shouldn't just be to make money it should actually to do something purpose so that's
when I went down the hair diary so it isn't just hair dye it's all about kind of eliminating worse than Hair Care like one of our drop bottles is the equivalent of like 10 to even 20 single-use plastic bottles on the Shelf from other brands so I was like right so I found the purpose and I think that's what really helped me understand brand understand purpose and understand how to actually do this and set this up properly and then that was like then it all just kind of made sense from there like the year before
don't get me wrong we tried to diversify we did fashion we Did clipping hair extensions we had harnesses we had random stuff and it just didn't work like our profits went down and it just didn't work yeah well I think that's what's really interesting because you look at a business at any time and you look at like you look at it at the end goal of the current time so if someone looked at refi now but or Shrine now you look at it and you think wow what a linear journey and you Actually forget all
of those things along the way that you would have tried I mean there's so many things that we tried with Tyler and shreddy as well that were just like that just didn't work the customer just didn't like and we learned and we moved on and we dealt with that um but it's and I feel like that's one of the most important things just like constant experimentation and testing and learning because it's always the ones Where you're like I remember there was this collection a few years ago where I was like yeah it's good but it's
not as good as what we need at the moment and it launched and everyone like absolutely loved it and I considered my superpower kind of like knowing what the customer will want and knowing what products are going to sell out etc etc and I just like got it completely wrong and I was just like huh this is literally why we keep experimenting because you never Know when you're going to strike gold definitely every collection we launch especially with refire recently and just exactly the same my old product um head of product kills us we both
have a mental breakdown before and we're like we just don't think we should do it we just don't think we should do it yeah I don't think it's right and it's like you're joking we do this for three years yeah you loved it until yesterday and you're about to launch tomorrow And then people love it yeah and on that topic how did the refi partnership come about yeah so if I was actually meant to be a small side business online right yeah never meant to be what it became um I met Jess on a shoot
I was watching two brows and I was like these look insane but what the hell is she doing she had like 10 products and I was like there's a lot going on and then we're Just talking about it and we were just talking about like this product that needed to happen and then we're just like all right see you later and then the next day I was in the studio and I was just like messing around I was like I found this brush and I was like this is the product we need and it needs
to look like this and then I just took it to Danielle and I was like can you make this do it you make this I need to do my Brows make me this product I don't know just see if you can make it um because I think something cool could happen I was like we definitely can't launch that with Shrine and it's I mean Jess have just been talking about and I was like I wonder if Jess wants to launch a business and I was like right I'm gonna put together this massive presentation I'm going
to pitch it into her and that's what I'm just going to email her yeah I sent her an email like Hey really random I know we're talking about this idea the other day I've actually um put it to my head of product and do you think she could do it do you want to start a business no worries if not yeah um and then she was like actually yeah I would like to I was like let's chat and it just kind of evolved and again the pandemic really helped us in that sense because we didn't
we had a bit of Brandon and it branding is one of those things that when you're starting a business until now when I realize how important it is it's something that you're like I'll do later I need to get this product and I need to set up a website and I need to do all this and you you actually you Brandon's what's going to blow you up and the mission the purpose everything why you're doing is the reason and we didn't have that we just had this brow Scope where we're like this is sick yeah
I mean we're gonna make some money this is sick um and then the pandemic happened and we're like we just looked at everything like what are we doing here like this actually could be we could make this big like we could turn this into a brand we could actually do something completely different to what other people are doing in the industry again very simple like what you've just said it was like There's all these incredible beauty brands but for a non-makeup artist I'm like eh what do I do oh yeah I mean animals like there's
nothing for the the girl the guy who just wants to do it look like they've had their makeup done but it they did it in like five seconds and it was like this morning I'm not saying my makeup looks brilliant I did it in three minutes yes I was in a rush but I could and I was like Everything's just so simple to use and it's like it's quick but it creates good effects I was like that's what we created here I I love that so much and I think we have a lot to talk
about within that I think first of all there's a really big lesson in there in terms of like listening to your gut when a product or like brand or thing is just like not quite there yet I feel like knowing as an entrepreneur that perfectionism is not possible like you Can't be a perfectionist as a business owner otherwise you'll literally never get anything out there but you can have really high standards and you need to have really high standards and every time there's been a gut feeling that I'm like I just don't like the packaging
or I just don't like the way you know the main sentence we're marketing it with or like any of those things anytime I've like not listened to that after it I've just been like like why did I not just Like sit down it would have been an uncomfortable meeting me being like surprised for going back to square one but like it's so important it usually takes less time than you think and I don't think there's ever a time I've like looked back and regretted kind of putting that extra effort in um but I also think
on top of that in terms of the brand mission of rafai as a whole I think anyone who's seen refine on social media which is probably Everyone who's listening to this I think can probably vouch for just how much Clarity there is around what you're doing and why you're doing it and I think it is so I mean I think it's so of the time in the way people consume social media as well like with the rise of video content and the rise of like authenticity and just wanting like solution based stuff I think it
really really really I mean it just really Works I mean you don't need to tell me to tell you that you can see from all the sales and all of the like hype on socials um but no I just think it's kind of been so exciting to watch um and I mean I'm sure you very much felt that as well right at the beginning what made you think that you until you were right but what made you believe that you could take on such a big task yeah I mean I definitely wouldn't have Done this
if it was my first business right that would have been a disaster the only reason I did take it on is because we literally had the processes without the people um and we we could do it you know what I mean I would not have taken on if I was like hey Jess you want to start a business but I've got we need to like get people we need to do everything and I've never actually done this before so I don't know what I'm doing Um I was like I kind of get now when I'm
doing a little bit so at least we've got something yeah um use your skills I use my skills we bring it together it's super cool could happen I just back ourselves yeah but I just think yeah we just there's things that like I would have changed doing it again but then I just think you just don't know what's going to happen like it might have been a flop yeah and it might have Been like okay that didn't work let's keep going let's try something else but it did just blow up overnight and we're a bit
like okay and I think my biggest regret is not hiring more people sooner right um but again you'll know when you first start how how can you because you wouldn't have known it could be a flash in the pantry I mean it could have been like great for all these people's mortgages relying on it exactly so you Just you just don't know you're learning you go and yeah you just figured out your Staffing yeah 100 I mean so obviously a huge task you take on I think that when we look at influencer businesses I think
there is very much this preconception that it's going to be really easy because the demand to a certain extent is going to be there and I think obviously I'll be the first person to say that like absolutely that contributes to it and that is a great Start but what that also means is you need to start the business seamlessly at a point where there are potentially tens of thousands of orders and being able to go from zero to tens of thousands without you can't have a trial run of 10 000 orders just to see if
they work you just need to you need to be able to start something as a well-oiled machine with no ability to test it Beyond a certain extent and like that is a huge undertaking not only not knowing how Much it would blow up but also just you know there are going to be an initial amount of people who believe in Jess and kind of believe in the creative and are like yeah cool I can especially with um such a good price point as well there are going to be people who kind of so for you
to be able to start that and have it operating so well um is such a I mean it's such a testament to your work yeah well I mean when you say so well it will always feel Like a [ __ ] but um but that's all that matters exactly but there's been times where we're literally everyone desks would be turned into packing stations we've let guys stop working whatever you're working on like we need to get these literally like right we've got to make we'll be compositions to ourselves and how fast we can make a
packing box do you know I mean I'm like the timer on yeah you would be like how many artists are gone It was just like but everyone that started with refried back in like in the early days were there for that and then yeah we've got beautiful officers now and it's only taken two years but they saw the small office they saw the packing the boxes and everything like it's yeah you you just figure it out don't you make it happen yeah no 100 and so you decide what was the timeline from you deciding to
or pitching it to Jess to launch and then actually getting to Kind of the launch published two years wow yeah it's a long time yeah definitely I mean the brow sculpt development it was like I mean in the beauty industry a lot of people you can Benchmark so like that's how a lot of that's why people rip people off because they'll be like hey make this product and then they just Benchmark it we were benchmarking off nothing generally we were building a formula and that's what we do with all of our Products we start from
like a concept and we never Benchmark and it just takes so long because you're like this is not what I wanted but you're not a scientist so it's like you try and tell someone how to do it and you're like oh no start again yeah so we had about 100 samples on the brow sculpt and at one point I was like this isn't going to work yeah like and then one Dead's got a stamp on my desk and I was like this is it it's always the way it works though Isn't it I remember like
some of my first samples and like I was just trying to ask the factory to make a [ __ ] t-shirt like a t-shirt and they're about 10 samples and like they were coming back and it would be like a fitted body and then like oversized t-shirt arms and I was like something's gone like terribly wrong here but also like I I have no experience in fashion I I'm not a designer I'm not a garment Tech I'm not Like any so I'd kind of go back and I'd be like find a t-shirt in your cupboard
just like a normal sized t-shirt this is what we want like it's the frustration of going back and forth with Factories at the beginning when you have nothing to Benchmark off of and you're really trying to make like a it's so I mean I couldn't imagine it so many times it would have been so tempting to just be like right just just make some quote Unquote normal makeup yeah exactly like it oh we could this would be so much easier if we were just trying to be like here's some products which one do you want
but I'll give them three fine like yeah happy days but we try and do stuff that doesn't exist and then it's yeah so you reap the rewards as well yeah because um okay you can tell that it's very much this the idea that I've got from refy through like consuming the content and seeing it online and Everything is very much this solutions based um you know these Solutions based products so selling the end use rather than like selling a product in itself which I feel like works so well on social media at the moment just
kind of being able to be like the the brow is what it sells you rather than like the individual product and saying kind of like use it how you want of course everyone's going to use it how They want but just being able to be like this is the blueprint adapt as you want um which is really really really clever from the success of the brow sculpt originally how had you already got your next product in the works kind of but not kind of and we had ideas but again we didn't know if this was
going to be anything right so we're like we had I mean we'd been working on the Summer Skin collection alongside the Brows for the two years But then after that we were like oh okay right this is actually going to happen right we need it we need we need to buy you a plan yeah yeah now we've got product for the next five years it's mad but um yeah we didn't have it right and that's why we didn't launch anything from June when we launched Summer Skin to our lips because we just couldn't get lips
right it took us two and a half years of lip stuff because it just wasn't working we were like when was Lips launched it launched the February so we almost went about 10 months without a launch right and again to a brand that's like what are you doing but for us it's like we're not chasing the cash and I think that's why we're fired successful we don't chase cash which is random purpose like we'd rather deliver a product that people like okay even if it's just one product a year yeah and that's kind of what
we do and I think that's why it works where I think on Trying that year when I went just wild and was like we need to make this work we don't know what we do and I was just bringing Out product life right and center and nothing was selling it's like I think you think you have to bring out product all the time to like grow and scale and it's like you actually don't if that's not what you wanted to do so I think yeah less is definitely more for us yeah no 100 but I
can imagine also when you'd got to that point where you'd Had brow sculpt and Summer Skin in quite quick succession I can imagine it probably got quite terrifying being like when's our next product um and if we're all in on this lips and it's not quite working yet how do we get to that stage yeah definitely I mean we had no backup plan so like now we've always got a bit of a backup plan yeah you can pull another product before yeah but we had we were literally like well what should we do we're like
I don't Know the incredible product team and Danielle and the guys did and like they got it right but it just took so long and yeah I just think you just never know how long a product is gonna take because like you said you think you've sent off the break you've got it right then you get it back and you're like what is this this is just completely off yeah it's nowhere near it's like start again so you're starting again over and over and Over again and even just like the factories take four weeks for
a formula so it could be even Wrong by the time it touches and you've lost four weeks so it's just a ongoing battle I think with product to kind of get it to a level you're happy with and how did the first ever launch go comparative to what you expected yeah um it did really well um I think what the craziest launch for us was was when everyone got the product And was like oh she's really good um and then we sold out completely it was our relaunch where we were like what just happened like
what just happened we're out of stock for like two months we put the product back in stock and it was just like whoa whoa whoa whoa what is going like people went crazy for it and I was just like yeah we were not prepared for that yeah but that's also a testament to how Much of a not just quote unquote influence a business based on people buying because Jess is saying this is great it's people you know maybe being aware of the product first of all at least at the beginning stages I would say you
know there's a huge I see referee everywhere whether it's with Jess or not now um but in terms of kind of being able to go from you know an initial amount purchasing Something which would be the early adopters the you know the fans the people who see the amazing marketing all of this and being able to try the product and then come back and be like I need 10 more or like I've told all of my friends and now they're all coming to purchase just shows how different it is creating a influencer business or something
that started as an influencer business that isn't just about the influencer I think With all of this rise of Celebrity Skin Care lines all of these different kind of beauty lines that every single celebrity seems to have the ones you can tell are going to do really well is it's like almost a coincidence that it happens to be an influencer line it's a great brand and product regardless and I think when when it's kind of obviously not when it's one of those things that's like you know if Ever sent that they're following bought it great
but like are they going to repeat in the same way have we made the same investment into like brand and actual efficacy of the product and all of these things and you can really tell with refi that you've spent so much time like whether no matter how people found out about it it's clearly an incredible product um and brand and there's something they can buy into and that kind of dependent Like no matter what which is obviously always the aim when kind of starting from that standpoint definitely and I feel like Jess as well and
I'm not sure how you obviously heavily involved in yours as well it's like you can tell the brands where they're not involved like where it's a face yeah exactly and I think that's what makes rephys well so different it's like I thought I was a massive perfectionist and I met Jess I'm like good job like I'm like ready to Sign stuff she's like no when it changes and I'm like I don't even notice that yeah I was crazy I was like so she is like literally putting her stamp and standard which is so premium on
everything so like if she's not happy with it it's not going anywhere and I think people do follow Jess for that level of like her style and every think it's just it's lovely to see it and I think you know you're getting that standard and I think that's what you Have to do with your brand I think you can just tell when people are in it and making it to their standard yeah no 100 and it's one of those things where everyone can use certain amount of marketing but the actual like multiplier effect on the
demand of that marketing based on like how much concentration there's been on brand and product and you can really tell when it's you know people in a back room making something and then they're stamping it on their Page um it's so clearly not that and it's so you know the Synergy between Jess and the product and the product and the brand and all of these things has just been executed so so well um if you could do it all again from that initial stage what are the main things that you would do differently if anything
um what would I do differently I think the the people piece I think I'm massively overstretched that I mean this team is a lot of the stretch but we're fixing it and we're working hey more stuff but like back then I'd have like the creative trying to do customer service on social and just like yeah I mean I was doing the customer service I was waking up but we had like one time where people just gone really wild on our customer service and I was waking up at 5am to check the customer service on Instagram
in case people had started going crazy or something and it was just like okay we could have just hired more customer service people like you just almost think you don't need it and then you're like no this is crazy we we definitely need it so I think it's a bit better in infrastructure definitely um knowing that it was going to be this big which you you don't know but just yeah if like I I always think now if I'm about to stay under the company which I'm not and just because it's going to do I
would have my infrastructure not perfect but as good as it could be so that it's ready for when it scales and not trying to scramble and I think we're just getting to stage now where we we're getting it solid and it's too years where I'd love to have just been like maybe it's got Financial backing and being able to build a team so it's like we're ready we're ready to run type thing instead of we're running yeah jump On board but yeah at the same time it's always is kind of Grass Is Always Greener isn't
it and like hindsight is 2020 all of those types of things but like also if you'd given away Equity at the beginning to get like a little bit of financial backing like they would have had a piece of this pie That's like [ __ ] huge now and like you deserve like obviously that would have been still kind of deserving from an investment point of view but it's like You have done so well self-funded that even if you look back and go like I wish we just had a little bit more to like hire a
few more people I can also see why it's worked so well that you've done it how it is so it's really easy always I guess to look back and be like oh I should have done this but I guess yeah wouldn't have known it's so funny you're saying that about but like customer service thing I remember um probably similar thing you know that Like wake up in the middle of the night and be like you just have like this thought and you're like what if someone's like just like everyone's going mad about this and I
just remember this like when tala really started to blow up I remember any time I was like you know those times where you just like can't check your phone like if I was like stupid things like I was getting my lashes done or like I was in uh you know like meeting where I didn't have my Phone or like a doctor's appointment or like a massage like literally anything where you literally can't like can't use your phone always like halfway through I'd be like oh my God like Something's Gonna have happened so like something's gonna
have happened and I'm gonna come out of this like [ __ ] it's so funny when you look back at those times and you're like God it's like living completely on edge I mean we we had one time and I remember I was in Aldi car park and I was just having a breakdown because someone was just being so mean on customer service to me and I was like I think I hadn't slept we were just as we're launching I was just like I can't cope with this and yeah that was the bit that would
break me that yeah personal customer service I was like somebody doesn't want them I'm done that's so funny and yeah like looking back at all of those things it's like How I often look back on those things like how did I even like live through this point like it seems like very insane that I would have had to um you know that I kind of managed to make it through that um so so since that Inception point you've it's been three in a bit years is that right since since you launched a Phi yeah Norwood
Niche two years next week oh okay so yeah so two years next week and You are a team of 50 is that right yeah just under 50 yeah that is insane how have you known is that refine Shrine separately and that's together right about well most people kind of some people are split we are separating them out now so it's yeah about 40 50 yeah incredible and how did you know what the right hires were at the right time yeah I think this is a really um really good topic because I do feel like it's
a Question I get asked a lot like how you know what to hire in it I think what's really important is knowing the level of your business and what that business needs at that level right like when you're first starting out you don't need five seniors at a specialist you need one person who can graft and do it all yeah and just like literally throw the hands in be on customer service be organized in a contract with a massive retailer and just being like you're Sounding board too yeah you need that person that is willing
to just get the hands dirty then when you start getting bigger you're like okay we can't all run like this because then you've got five ten people are all a bit entrepreneurial and very generalist and everyone's to be like I'll get involved I'll do a bit of this and it works for a certain point but then you're like no we need some structure now so I think you should just understand the level you're At and then be like okay now we're at a level that we want to get to this level what do we need
for this and what we do is we build out kind of our structure depending on what our goal is so our goal is to be um a global Beauty brand that focus on destination retail but then obviously having a really strong online presence as well so it's like then we build our structure what do we need okay we need a specialist in retail we need a specialistson.com we need a Specialists and product we need a specialist in brand and we need a specialists in finance and operations and with Specialists and sales so it's like we
need these Specialists and then we bring them in and then they then build up their team so I used to get so involved in all the details someone be hiring a black do you think they should do this do you think I should do that and now I've got you know it yeah you know what you need in your team I've Learned now and I think having a child's really helped to just get less out of the little bits because I mean even this one just on a call with the team and talking about social
and I try and not be signed the day on that anymore he seems like he's saying oh I've got an idea myself I'm like just get away and just stick to what you're doing and it's so easy to just like get so involved but you've got to as you evolve get out of It get out of it and just trust people to just do it yeah I'm really trying to so hot it's like when it's your baby and you're just like yeah but you know I feel like there you know which things you do need
to say something on and which things you're like yeah that'll like lead people to do their lead people to do their thing they know what's best Etc what are the biggest hiring mistakes you've made Um not describing our culture well enough right looking at a CV verse a personality trait um explaining how I work because I mean I've hired people I'm like I can't work with you you can't work with me like you've come from corporate I'm I'm crackers to work with do not mean I'm I'm a bit all over a bit massively all over
the shop I know where I'm going yeah like I'm not like I have to be laughing I can't take things too Seriously when people come in the very series of very corporate they're like what is this and it's it goes both ways as well it's like they're not going to enjoy annual it's not just for the company I feel like this is one of the things I feel like when kind of very similar but like yeah one I'd say with the biggest hiring mistakes I've made is always that like culture Fit versus experience level but
also on top of that it's like I used to really Try and make the company sound as amazing as possible in any of those things because it's like please come and join us that we think you know and it's someone from this huge company and you're like no no please like it's gonna be amazing and you think like wow they're gonna take us to that level and actually just being like I would much rather everyone know all of the really good things and all of the really bad things because chances are if you like Miss
sell something or you just like really over egg it because you're so passionate about it and someone comes in it's work I'd rather not have that person take the job than them leave in three months like it kills both you and it costs so much to hire and so much time and so much resource and the team gets overstretched but I feel like I wish I'd known that I wish I'd known not to just like hiring is the biggest thing that if someone wants to write a book on It please do because I will buy
it like you just you either get it right and you get it really right yeah or you just get it really really wrong there's no in between I also kind of feel like you have to make a certain amount of the wrong ones to really understand it because I feel like I tried to listen to like every single podcast about hiring every single audio book like all of these things and they said all of these things they said like hire Fast Fire Fast they said higher for culture Fitness and like attitude not experience and like
all of these things and I was like yeah yeah cool like writing down the notes and every single time I do the thing that you naturally do which is hire the person with the bigger names who like feels like really serious and you need a bit more structure in your company and all of those things and I kind of feel like you need to be able to go through them because otherwise you Don't really understand why it was a bad idea definitely definitely and I think Panic hiring as well the amount of times of panic
takes I'm like I'm overstretched I need that person and I just I'm blindsighted and literally I can see all the negatives in it but I'm like I'm desperate yeah and then you straight away you're like they're not right yeah and I feel yeah there's been so we've been kind kind of scaling this past year and like for the past six Months of you know I think yeah I think pretty much double Ted count but within that time there's been so many jobs that have taken like four or five months to hire and like it's so
tempting when I'm doing like a final stage interview to just be like it could work like it could like chances are it's not going to blow up in Flames so I'm like like and it's so close all the time and it's like you know you know it's not Gonna work or you know there's like a big attitude thing that's like very different from the way the company works and I feel like with startups as well you have to have people who take pleasure in mucking in and just like getting stuck in sorting things out when
there are issues helping like who believe that a rising tide lifts all boats who really want to kind of like you know they'll see something go wrong and they're like okay how can I help all Of these things and if you have like a part of the organization that doesn't do that and the rest of people do then it all falls onto the people who do and then they get more overstretched and I feel like just not knowing that that was actually part of the company rather than like a part of some of the people
in there I feel like it's so important definitely and I think there's yeah your people the the hardest thing in business you know I mean because Getting it right and especially when you're scaling you've just got to get it right and I think the interview process is so important and like your essentially being so transparent like are you willing to pack boxes if you're not not the right company yeah like we're extreme now it's like are you willing to stay till midnight no one else is there to midnight I ask these questions right because I
want to make sure that I feel like oh no it's like Well you're not if you're not willing to ask that say yes in an interview you're definitely not willing to pass the box for five minutes because it goes both ways both ways as well but it's like a there's Rose tinted glasses on both sides because people want new jobs and you want new hires so it's like they're looking at it being like if they think it's you know maybe not the right thing they'll look at it with rose tinted glasses and then within like
six months We'll probably be like actually no it's not for me I always very much do try especially with those roles we find found like really hard to place I'm like I never want to hire for this person again and therefore like I will tell you all of the worst parts of this job on the spot it's like an anti-interview I remember um interviewing for my iea a few years ago and I just kept like I it was such a hard role to hire from before because it Was like a cross between like an EA
and a PA there was like the business staff but also the personal stuff and the influencer stuff and all of this like it was all over the place so like a corporate or like legal EA maybe not exactly the right thing but also like a personal PA probably also not the right thing because I might need you to prepare a deck or whatever it might be so I was just finding it so hard to hire for and it took so long and I got to the Stage where I was like you know what I'm just
not gonna have one I'm not gonna have one I can't hire for this anymore I can't interview a single new person like I'm just not gonna do it um and then this like recruitment was um calling me up and be like please interview this person I was like I'm not doing it I'm not doing it I'm done I'm not I have no interest in this and then I um they were like look she's done the task so I don't know about you but I Always set tasks like that are going to be like part of
the role um like we're gonna send them through to you if you have a free second just look through them and I look through them all right yeah fine they're good like but I'm still not interviewing for it and I'm too like stressed at the moment because I have no assistant like all of this and so I was like I'm not doing it and then um and then they were like please just interview her and I was like Okay fine I'll interview her um and it turns out she'd been having the other side too because
she wasn't looking for a job so they had also be made like you're perfect for this please do this and like we've kind of been on both sides and then we um we had this interview and I sat down and I was like these are the 10 worst parts of the job I was like there's this there's this there's this there's this and she was like And then like I opened another job a week later and she like accepted she was like great she's like it sounded perfect I love I love this type of work
and we've been working together ever since and it's like one of those things where it's like had I sat there and been like It's So Glamorous you'll get to come on trips with me like all of these things it's like yeah that's part of it but there'll also be times where we're having a freak out at [ __ ] 5 a.m and Like something's falling through and you need to travel across London to like get it done and like we're all running around like absolute you know you're coordinating between Tyler and Freddie and like the
you know the personal business and like all of those various different things um but I feel like there's such a tendency to um to like oversell on hiring and it's like that I think that's all yeah it's Definitely so important just to be like because as well I think people get so disheartened if they come into a run it's not the right fit but I I see companies as like your partners in like your friends in life I have my friends and you have ex late night showing 10 Max people have 10 Max Properties people
might have more apparently you probably have one we might have more but that's about 11 people they're gonna be businesses there in the world not every Business you're going is going to be the perfect fit and I think it's all clear to be like God that wasn't for me I think people it crushes them when they're going like can't do the job it's like no it's just probably not the right place for you and that is absolutely fine like we're finding a connection within business as well as you find a connection within your friends and
if you see it that way you're actually a bit like okay that's exactly like there Have been you know when you see people when friends for example have applied for a job and not got the role but the way they described it in the thing you could tell that they were like saying oh no but this is really great about it and you're like you would hate that like you would hate that but it's always so disheartening to not get a job and you always see it in the best way possible because also usually companies
will sell it in the best way possible but actually Just being able to see it as like a two-way street and like someone's not going to hire you if you're not the right fit for it and that goes both ways that you don't want to be in something for it's the most draining and like toughest thing on your mental health being in a job that's like not a good fit for you so like kind of going both ways so before we close off I know that you have a newborn um and while I want to
really ask about How that's been with running a business I also very much see the difficulty with like how many men have sat down and being like how is it having a newborn with a business obviously assuming that the mother is kind of the primary carer but obviously having a newborn regardless is very difficult I can imagine um how have you found the experience of having a newborn in a business um yeah I know I love it I mean I Absolutely love it and she is a very good baby she slept from two months Jeremy
sleeps from Seven until seven so like if she wasn't sleeping I find this a lot difficult because I need my sleep yeah and she's very chill I can put her down to play she can play with herself for an hour she's a good baby so that is like my disclair but this is not like I've not got a crazy child and I'm doing all this on top so I've got I've got a good baby Um and then I've got support so she has a nanny and she only does like two days a week the nanny
sometimes a bit more my mum and dad come down to help a lot as well so like I've got support I definitely couldn't do this without the support because it would be very hard and but no I love it and I think it I went back a bit too soon which was probably the biggest thing I I would do going forward but you have to plan if you want to leave like yeah I plan for Two months and I planned that perfectly of leaving for two months but then I'd only plan to win so I
had to come back after two months and I wasn't back full time don't get me wrong um but when you back you back as a family yeah I mean like yeah yeah my head anywhere um but yeah I think the fourth month when she was about four months I think I went back a bit too intensely and I was like and I just was like oh my God this Is so hard why am I doing this to myself and I said I'm gonna just breathe you're the one that's putting this pressure on yourself yeah no
one's asking you to do stuff you're just literally creating more and more work for everyone like what are you actually doing and I was like also you can do this you're just telling yourself it's hard like I'm a big believer in like you are what you think and I think I could sit here and be like oh my God that's the most Stressful thing in the world or I could just try and rationalize with my head and be like what works do that and I think I'm I try not to overthink it because some weeks
are hard and I am a bit like and then some weeks I'm like no I can't do this but that is life I'm just doing what works and I think having that attitude is like what's helping where I think and I was like I want to go to all mummy and baby classes I've been the one Yeah and I'll probably never have time to go back again I could sit and cry about that I'll just this is life I chose yeah I've got to accept it like you've got to have that acceptance and I think
I've accepted that having a business you'll never have a real matte leave it doesn't work but you want this life you've got to accept that and yeah that's how make it okay in my head yeah no absolutely love that and it's and it's been I mean I follow Instagram it's Been such a joy to see um your kind of journey through it all in like the business just going from strength to strength um what is the big end goal with Shrine and rafai um it's a shrine we're about to diverse find really delve into the
hair world and go down a very much not super equal but just reducing waste within hair care and that's a really exciting project I'm working on and then Verify it's just absolute global domination and just yeah but just brand first just being that brand that is just yes and then just staying like at the top of Brandon and that's kind of where we want to push our boundaries now just do things where people are like God have you seen what they just did yeah that's where I want to be and is there anything that you
haven't ticked off yet that you're oh definitely like we're not even Scratching the surface like yeah not even scratching surface I'm proud of where it's got to but I'm like this is just like the Millie steps of where it's about to become oh well amazing well thank you so much for joining me that's been incredibly interesting and I know people find it very inspiring so thank you for sharing well thank you so much for having me on foreign [Music]
