Watch the Moment This Muslim Woman Realizes Jesus Is God

I think this was a master class from a Christian showing a Muslim step by step God's true nature, the divinity of Jesus. And you actually see throughout the conversation that her heart is shifting, that her heart is changing, that her perspective is changing. And you actually see that she is getting kind of uncomfortable and kind of fearful Because the beginning work of her belief starting to shift is happening. And then you can see in real time how she chooses to shut that down, to ignore it. Very, very interesting conversation. very interesting conversation >> into it.

We left off in our first conversation. Actually, it was our second conversation, but was the first one that was um premiered. >> Yes. >> We left off at the Trinity. So, I would Like to get into the Trinity in greater detail and then allow you to ask the questions that you might have. >> Okay, let's do it. >> All right. So, I have my Bible here. I have the Quran as well. So, we'll be looking at the Bible obviously first since we're discussing the Trinity. But I wanted to just This is what I wanted to

ask you then. >> That Bible be getting red. That Bible be getting red. I just had to say that. And I wanted to gauge your thoughts because obviously you consider yourself a monotheist. I also consider myself a monotheist. And I would I would define loosely monotheism as the study of God's oneness, the nature of God, how God is one. >> And I think the difference between us is how we understand the word one. Would you say that that's essentially the crux of the issue? >> Uh yes. >> Yes. That's what I think. So I don't

want to put words in your mouth, but from my understanding, the doctrine of oneness in Islam is tahed. And it is a doctrine that espouses the idea that >> Allah is singular. There is no division in Allah. There is he has all of his attributes, his 99 names and it does it cannot belong to anyone else. >> No. >> Um so and and so as far as the trinity is concerned, we believe that God is one And that one is the issue here today that I want to break down before I even get into the

theology. >> Yeah. >> Would you agree that the word one is flexible? Do you think that the word one always has to refer to >> That's so funny you said that because um I want to read you something. Hold on. >> But uh as far as that with one I >> don't think about theology just like in everyday conversation. For example, if I Said this is a true story I and I wanted to use this example that day. So, I grew up >> Oh, here it is. >> And I played the clarinet when I was

younger and I would practice for recital in my bedroom. >> I would be one girl, one clarinet player in my room making one sound. Yes. >> But when I would get to the recital, there would be about six or seven other clarinet players and we would come Together and now we would be several girls making the same one sound. So, before we even get to theology, I just wanted us to have like a logical, I guess, consensus on whether or not the word one can be used in a unique way. And what I mean is

there are instances where we can refer to one and it be singular, the one girl making the one sound or one can also refer to something that's collective, composite, compound. It can it can refer to a group because The word one is flexible. Do you agree with that or do you disagree? >> I'll say this because it's so funny you mentioned that because I have notes according to that. So mono one single alone that's what I definitely believe and that's by definition just like a monologue that would be a speech given by a single person

monle single eyepiece um just like monotheism one supreme god which is actually one of Allah's uh attributes because we have the sup Supremely great um now for try no but before we get to theology because I'm going to I I am going to make my case and chief here >> and so I am probably going to be doing a lot of the talking and so I hope that doesn't bother anyone but I want I just want to lay a framework and a groundwork. >> Yeah. >> Before we get into the theology say one last thing

but I was just going to say >> only with try. >> You can't be mono and try at the same time. That's what we're discussing. So, so again, what I want to know is just without theology on the table, >> the word one, can it be used in a flexible way where the word one can say that's one band, one sound, and that's one girl making one sound? Is that >> by definition? One needs to be one. It's only one single just one. >> I don't think that. >> No. >> So, one band is not

a logical syllog. Like if I say this is one band, they're making one sound. You would say that's impossible. They're not making one sound. Is that your position? >> Now, I understand what you're saying, but if we're looking at >> cuz you're mixing I think you're mixing the the I think you're trying to get ahead and we're going to get >> Yeah, I am getting ahead. [laughter] >> Yeah. Just just a simple logical question. Can the word >> but I'm very The thing about me is that I'm very very very factual. >> Okay. >> And

I go by definition. >> Okay. And um when you look at just mono, >> mono just means one though. That's that's where we're at. Monotheism. So we're we're that means one. And then Theism it means it refers to God. We're not even talking about God yet. We're just talking about in everyday life. If am I crazy if I said that's one band, one sound? Is that a logical statement? Or would you push back and say no, that is not one band, one sound. That's multiple bands making multiple sounds. Would you understand it that way? Yes

or no? >> I understand. >> You would you would understand it as one Band, one sound? >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. >> So, since we can agree that the word one has the option or has the opportunity to be flexible at times, the next step in this dialogue, >> it has Yeah, it can be flexible at times at times depending on the situation. >> Right. Right. So the next step in this conversation or at least in my presentation would be to then look at The the theological understanding of God. So we we understand that one

can sometimes refer to a singular thing. It can also sometimes refer to a collective or a composite thing. Now what I want to communicate to you is that anything that we know about God is essentially going to be found through revelation. Do you agree with that? >> Okay. So if we want to learn God's nature, we wouldn't just use common sense necessarily. That is a tool, but That's not the primary tool. We wouldn't just rely on logic. We wouldn't just rely on common sense. We wouldn't just rely on hearsay. The best way to understand God's

nature is go by what God has revealed about himself in scripture. Would you agree with that? >> I think that um faith is important. Revelation is important. Um >> so yes. >> Okay, good. So So we're so we're tracking. So with that in mind, I want Us to look at scripture. I want us to look at God's revelation. And of course, as a Christian, my understanding of God's revelation is the Bible, which is comprised of the Hebrew Bible and also the New Testament. I just refer to it as the Bible. But I want us to

now look at God's revelation and how one is used as it relates to God. Because we have agreed at the start of this conversation that one can be flexible. It depends on what it's describing. We've also agreed That revelation is the best the primary way for us to get an understanding on who God is and what his nature is. So with that in mind, I want us to start at the very beginning. And so we're going to go to Genesis chapter 1. >> Please do not judge my duct tape. Oh my gosh, I ain't going

to lie. This is so embarrassing cuz it was holding up a little bit better, but whatever. All right, got it. So Genesis 1. And I have the New King James Version. And I wanted To point out some of the notes that I have in scripture. Oh, first verse says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Now, usually I stop at that point and I point out that the word used in Hebrew is Elohim. And I think that is significant because as I've said before, the word L is a generic word for God.

And when you use Elohim, what you're doing at that point is you're introducing multi-personalness into God's name. Because Elohim means Loosely it means gods. Obviously, I do not believe that God is God's. I believe it's one God. But that word itself that's used for God there is Elohim. >> I don't know if if you're familiar with that. Okay. >> Um and so then it goes on to use singular pronouns to describe Elohim. So it says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without >> I think she is a lawyer

in real life, I Believe, if I'm not mistaken. form and void in darkness was on the face of the deep and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Uh so let me skip to verse two actually. So verse two says the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. I don't know about you but if I'm reading that that gives me a little bit of pause because I see that they mention God created. Why is it why is it necessary for the writer Moses to then say and

the Spirit of God? Wouldn't it just make sense to say and God was hovering over the face of the deep? The writer seems to be communicating some type of distinction. I would look at that and I would say that the writer seems to be communicating that God is one Elohim but then there's some multi-personal aspect to him since the writer highlighted the fact that the spirit of God was doing something independent hovering over the face of the deep. >> Then you follow me so far? Okay. So then I want us to look at Genesis 1

verse 26. Okay, it says, "Then God said, let us make man in our image according to our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and so on." What's interesting to me as a casual reader, even if I did not have a Christian background, which I do, I would I would pause there and I would have to be curious about the usage of The word us. And I know that it's a common understanding in in other belief systems that the word us and

our is referring to the royal we. But you would have to understand there's a few problems with that. Number one, royal wei is a later invention. It's a later linguistic device. The the royal we was not used in the Hebrew Bible anywhere else and it was not in use at the time that Moses would have pinned these scriptures. So that is what's called Like a uh is it an anthro uh an anacronism? >> Mhm. So it it wouldn't track that it's the royal weed. The other objection that I usually hear is that he's speaking to

the divine counsel. Basically, he's speaking to angels and he's saying, "Hey guys, let us go down to earth and make man in our image." And my common push back as to why that doesn't follow. >> I don't know if this is going to be a fair discussion. I don't know if it's going to be a fair discussion. She already came out and she already said, "I'm going to be talking most of this video. I apologize." like she already said that she going to be talking the and I I don't have any I don't have any

issue with that. I don't have any problem with that. But I just I I I don't know if if this woman opposite of her is going to be equipped to Combat the claims that are going to be made. I don't know. Let's see. I'm curious. >> Is because God is the creator and when God creates, he doesn't need help from anyone. He doesn't need assistance. So he created the angels without assistance. >> So let me ask you this. He doesn't need assistance, >> right? >> I know that I know you're saying like Jesus is an

assistance. But that again, we're making the case that Jesus is God. So it's not assistance if they're one. >> But well, why about all of his actions? >> They are the actions of God. That's the case that I'm making. So we're going to continue. We'll get there to the questions. I know you're going to I know you have your questions. And so I just I just want to try my best to make this as clear as possible. So again, God didn't need the angels to make the angels. So Then why would he need angels to

make creation? What it communicates more than likely is that God is speaking to someone that is equally God because I'm not created in the image of angels. Royal Wii is not a thing. It makes more sense to say that God is speaking to amongst the Godhead. Now, we haven't gotten there yet, but I'm just letting you know how I understand and how I see that. >> So, are we tracking so far? >> We got it. >> Okay, >> that's Genesis 1. I wanted us to then go to another one of my favorite passages. >> Okay.

>> And it's Genesis 192. Where am I going? Okay. All righty. Okay. 19 24. All right. Yes. So, for context, I'm sure you're familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah was a lawless city and in this scene of Scripture it's going to be destroyed and this is a conversation that is taking place with Abraham. So Abraham is the central character >> and Genesis 18 the scripture before is also a good chapter to look at in regards to the multi-personal aspect of God. >> Uh you see a visitor that approaches Abraham and this visitor is

is talking here as well. So let's kind of see who this essentially who this visitor is. So Verse 24 says, "Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah from the Lord out of heaven." >> Does that sound mysterious to you in any way? Does anything in that verse give you pause? >> H >> I'm sorry. I was reading kind of reflecting on the verse. What was your question? Does anything So when you read that, it says, "Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah From the Lord out of the

heavens." Does that Does that strike your interest in any way? The phrasing of that verse? >> Yes, it does. >> What stands out to you? >> From the Lord. >> From the Lord. That's that's interesting to me. And I wanted to point out this before we even go any further. I know the trinitarian belief is supposedly invented at the Council of Nika, and that's literally not true. The Council Of Nika didn't even discuss the validity of the Trinity. What they discussed is whether or not Jesus was God because that was the reigning heresy at the

time. >> But what's interesting is that this the multi-personal nature of God is not a Christian invention. Jewish readers at this time would read this and come away with the belief that God was multiple. fact there was a doctrine and you're more than welcome to look this up and it Was called benitarianism because they can at least wrap their head around the fact kind of like you from the Lord that there was at least two Yahweh somehow I don't know how but you see then the Lord rain down brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah

from the Lord out of heaven so a Jewish reader a careful Jewish reader like man there is something about this and in case that's not clear some people might say it's just emphasis oh there it's just repetitive is the Lord Is doing something from the Lord and that's just the way that Jewish speakers would speak with added emphasis. But here's the catch. Amos 4:1 and I I I I have my Bible tab, so I'm not a pro. I'll tell you that >> it is towards the end. >> Amos. >> Oh, Amos Oadiah, Jonah. So, it's

kind of towards the end of the Old Testament. If you get to the New Testament, you've gone too far. >> Yeah. >> It's after Hosea. It's after Let me It's a really small book. Okay, here it is. easy to miss. So Amos 4:1, okay? Because like I said, we just looked at Genesis 19 verse 24 and it says, "Then the Lord rained down fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." And a lot of the push back that I'll see online is, "Oh, that's just repetition." But no, it's not because Amos 4:11 tells us

Exactly what it is. So Amos 4:11 it says, "I overthrew some of you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." And if you go down to the very next verse, it tells you who's speaking. It says, "Says the Lord." So the Lord is talking to Amos. This is about the impending um I think Babylonian exile that's coming up that is going to come on Israel. And he's warning them and he's saying, "I overthrew some of you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." So this is to me a very fascinating verse because you can't look at it

and just conclude that there's just a singular entity in heaven handling all the business. You see that one of these entities if you will. >> Yeah. It sounds like he's saying as God someone else is saying as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. >> But who's the someone else? Who the someone else says I overthrew some of you. So this person that's talking has The ability to overthrow anything that he has the ability to destroy. And I would say that's only a prerogative that God has. And then he compares himself to God. The reason I'm bringing

this up because it connects perfectly to Genesis 19:24. We just read Genesis 19:24 and you agreed that in reading that something stood out to you. God then the Lord rained down fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven. >> Mhm. >> That should not be taken in isolation. If you read Genesis 18 and 19, you'll see that there was a physical gen. In fact, Genesis 18:1, it starts off by saying, "Then the Lord visited Abraham, a physical manifestation." So much so that Abraham decides to bake him a cake in Genesis 18. The chapter continues

because at this point, God is saying, "Should we tell Abraham what we're about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah? Should we hide it from him?" Because his nephew Lot lived in Sodom and Gomorrah at the time. >> And so, in Genesis 19, the story continues and Sodom and Gomorrah is destroyed. Thankfully, Lot is saved. But you see a physical figure, the same physical figure that was introduced in Genesis 18 as the Lord standing there. And then you see the passage saying, "Then the Lord rained down fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." And

then I take you to Amos 4:11. And It's so obvious that the speaker is the Lord because it says it in verse verse 11 at the bottom. And the speaker says, "I overthrew some of you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." So we see Genesis 19 that was God. But here >> it seems to be two gods, if you will. >> Mhm. >> Okay. So, what are your thoughts so far? >> Two gods. >> That's just I'm using that very loosely. >> I'm not at all a believer in multiple Gods. I'm not a polytheist. I

am a monotheist. But I'm saying that a casual reader would look at this and say, "hm, is this two Yahwehs? Is this two gods?" >> Yeah. That's why I said it sounded like, you know, that's the first thing that I picked up. I have overthrown some of you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and yay were as a fire band plucked out of the burning yet have ye returned unto me saith the Lord. >> So how would you reconcile that? Like how would you reconcile reading the fact that we're looking at scripture in real time

where it seems to be some multi-personal nature to God. Who do you who do you think is the one that said I? Who do you think is the one that rained down the fire from the Lord out of heaven? like what are your thoughts so far? >> It actually um makes me uncomfortable. >> Okay. Why? >> Because of just the fact that it's um it's it's starting to multiply. It's just, you know, because we have different beliefs obviously and um >> Yeah. Yeah. In this paragraph, it sounds like it's literally two people speaking, >> right?

Right. >> In lordship. >> Absolutely. That and that's the Perspective that Jew that was the Jewish perspective. Yeah. >> That is why again I hope you look this up. The Jewish belief that there were two powers in heaven. It's called the two powers in heaven doctrine or something like that. >> It predates Christianity. It came from reading scriptures like this. And there's two more that I want to take you to before I kind of wrap up my discussion. But it came from reading Scriptures like this. And I feel like an honest reader is going to

look at that and they're going to come away with these questions. They're not going to come away and just say, "Oh, you know what? This is polytheism. Anything that has multi-personalness and and is in relation to God is condemned." Because that's not the ancient Jewish perspective. That's not the older Jewish perspective and it's not the Christian perspective. And so, >> I will say I didn't think that you were going to come from this perspective. This was a nice perspective for you to come from. >> Okay. I appreciate that. And so there's two more that I

want to take you to and then I will I I'll yield my time over to you. I'll give a little summary and then yield my time over to you >> uh for your own questions. But it's going to be Isaiah and that is literally like I'm not good. I have these tabs so Don't think I'm an expert. It's about this much in distance in front of it. >> In front of it. Yeah. >> Okay. In front of Amos, you said. >> Yeah. So you're going to go the other way. >> Okay. >> Yeah. That way.

That way. Keep going. Let me Okay. Right before that book there. Yeah. Yeah. Isaiah 48. Mhm. >> I open right to it. >> Oh, see verse one >> 12-6. >> Okay. >> All right. So, this is one of my favorite verses. It's actually referred to as the silver bullets for um I guess conversations like this. It's the silver bullet for the Trinity. It's kind of just like the top gun, I guess you can say. So, I'm going to start off by reading from verse 12. Um it's kind of long, but it says, "Listen to me,

O Jacob, and Israel my Cause. I am he. I am the first. I am also the last. Who would you say would be the first and the last? >> Well, I mean for the first and the last of my perspective would be God alone. >> Okay. So, it's God. >> The first and the last. >> I agree with that. Yes. Then it goes on. It says, "Indeed, my hand has laid the foundation of the earth and my right hand has stretched out the heavens." Who's talking still? Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the

earth. That's God for sure. >> Period. I agree with you. And then it goes on, my right hand has stretched out the heavens. I call this his spiritual resume. So God is giving his spiritual res. It says, "And my right hand has stretched out the heavens. When I call to them, they stand up together. All of you assemble yourselves and hear. Who among them has declared these things? The Lord loves him." So this is a little Interesting. It's talking about King Cyrus who is going to come and bring destruction on Israel for their rebellion. So,

this is a prophecy about him, but I want to kind of skip. We can read that, but I don't want to get lost in that. >> Yes. >> Verse 15, it goes down. It says, "I even I have spoken. Yes, I have called him." Talking about Cyrus. I have >> Now, that even sounds plural. That even Sounds like an additional person. I even I >> Right. Okay. Let's Let's keep going. It says, "I even I have spoken. Yes, I have called him. I have brought him and his way will prosper. And then this is this

is the most interesting part of it. Come near to me. Hear this. I have not spoken in secret from the beginning. Who speaks from the beginning? >> God. >> Okay. It says from the time that it was I was there and now the Lord God but this person speaking is God. We both agreed to that. But then he's saying and now the Lord God and his spirit have sent me. The reason this is called the silver bullet is because this is the clearest passage in the Old Testament, at least from a Christian perspective, where you

can see all members of the Godhead present. That's what we would say. And people can disagree with that, but we have just agreed and we walked Through it together and we saw that the speaker is clearly God. Some people say the speaker is Isaiah, but Isaiah has no authority to say that he has been there from the beginning. Isaiah is not the first and the last throughout this whole >> the Old Testament. >> Yes, ma'am. >> Okay. Okay. Can you show me something like that in the New Testament? >> Sure. Matthew 28:19. But we can

we can get to that, but I just kind of wanted To get your thoughts here. So, what do you think so far? So, you >> I think she's kind of feeling a little bit uncomfortable because it's making sense. And I don't know if this is true or not. You let me know. I don't know if there's any Muslims in the chat, any Muslims watching this video. I had heard from somebody within that community that even if you have doubt in whether or not Like um Islam is true then that is considered a sin. So even

that doubt is considered a sin. And I think somebody said that that doubt could even be considered like could have like eternal consequences. I don't know. I don't know. But she definitely seems a little bit uncomfortable because it seems like it's making sense. I think it's really dope. And I think this is a heart posture that we all should strive to have is To be willing to sit down and be open to an investigation of the scriptures. And she's a perfect person. And Chinasa is a perfect person to lay out the case in this way

and allow the dots to be connected in this way. But you can clearly see that there is a shift happening. And I'm interested and I'm very curious to see if this changes her strategy when she actually has the time to speak for herself. I'm very curious To see, you know, what shift happens. agree that the speaker is God. And then the very last verse, verse 16 says, "From the time that it was I was there, and now the Lord God and his spirit, remember we started off in Genesis 1, I said that you see that

God is present in that scene." But then it says, "And his spirit was hovering over the deep." There's a distinction in his in his spirit's activity. And then here there is the ability for the spirit and the Lord God to send the first and the last. Does that communicate to you in any way that there could be a multi-personal aspect to God according to Hebrew scriptures? So, okay. So, I'm following you. So, I see that you are trying to say that um this is where the father, son, and the holy spirit come in. >> Right.

This is this is what I >> This is how your belief is cultivated Based on >> this is one of the litany of verses that that we've been discussing and that there are many more but this is one of them. Yes. >> Okay. Now um can you explain to me one more time like your Trinity belief system if it was if it were to someone that um >> has no religious background. Sure. So uh Exactly. So this is a perfect time for that. So, as I stated, a Christian is a Monotheist. And we agreed at

the start of this conversation that monotheism is the study of God's oneness. We also agreed that the word one is flexible depending on the context. So, one can refer to one girl playing one sound as a clarinet player, i.e. me when I was a little girl, or it can refer to one group of girls who are playing that same one sound. So the point of that analogy is that there can be distinction within one thing. Just like I used I think in Our previous conversation. I think I was just kind of rattling off verses and

I didn't like that. But I talked about Genesis 2 verse 24 and it says and the two shall become one flesh. >> So we see the word one right there is being used to describe >> a couple where there is a distinction. They're not literally one flesh >> but they come together in God's eyes to become one. >> Wow. And so the reason that I'm bringing That up is because the word one is flexible. The only way we're going to know if one is truly singular or if it's it could be a composite is by

looking at scripture. And so if you do not understand the trinity, I would say that >> the Lord is one. But then we have to go into scripture to see how does God describe his oneness. And that and that is why I wanted to go through scripture to see that there is a multi-personal aspect associated with God's oneness. When I when the best way I can break it down is if you say what >> do you believe that although okay so you believe that all three are one correct? >> They are all I believe that

all three are co-eternal co-equal and they're all God. >> So where does the son of god come in? Do >> you mean the title the name? Yeah. Jesus. Because some Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God. Some believe he's God. So >> he is the son of God and he is God. >> Okay. So you believe he's the son of God and God. >> Yes. >> Okay. So explain that how that coincides. >> I'll take you to I'll let the verses do the talking. >> Okay. >> So this happens to be a verse

that I was going to show you anyway. Um >> which one is it? >> It's Daniel. So >> can you can you go to the New Testament? >> Something in the New Testament. >> Okay. Um, >> sure. Yeah, I can do that. >> That's a very interesting request. All right, John 10. Why is she asking for the New Testament? >> John 10. >> Something clicking. Something adding up here. >> Yes. John 10. >> You want me to make uh a point while you're looking? >> Yes, please. >> You said she's asking for Jesus. Bro, that's

what I'm saying. Something's adding up here. Okay. So, a question that I had was, okay, so if Jesus is fully God, okay, how can the father know something that the son doesn't? And that's in Mark 13:32. So, it says that no one knows the day or hour, not the son, only the Father. >> Okay, that's a great question. And what I would say to that is in understanding some of the controversial things in scripture, it's important for us to understand God's uh Jesus's nature while he was here on earth. We just finished discussing which is

a little bit off topic, but I don't want us to be too too limited in what we discuss here. We discussed like God's nature as a whole. How I believe that God's nature is in Line with the Trinity as it relates to scripture. One of the members of the Godhead, that's the collective term that we use to refer to all three persons of the Trinity. One of the members of the Godhead is Jesus. He is the son of God. He is eternal. However, he is the only member of the Godhead who came to this earth

and took on flesh. That's for a reason. That is to redeem us. But one thing that we also have to keep >> and you also said earlier that God doesn't need help from anyone when you mentioned the angels. >> Yes, absolutely. And I don't that's not a contradiction. I think we have to start off by understanding that God's oneness includes the father, the son, and the spirit as we just saw in Isaiah 48:12-16. So, it's not help. It's not help because they're one. And so, when we're looking, so that's the perspective. I know you May

not understand it or agree with that, but it it wouldn't be equal to God getting help of an angel because an angel is not one uniquely one united. He's not the same substance and the same essence. So the way I would describe it is um before we get into this passage in John, if I say um what are you? What would you say? >> What am I? I'm Muslim. >> Oh, well that's too broad. I should have said this. So I guess the answer like if You asked me what I was, I would say I'm

a human being. >> Okay, that that is the essence of of what I am. But then if you say who are you, I would say I'm Chinasa. >> If you asked God what are you, the answer would be God. That's his essence. That's kind of like a generic term. But then if you ask specifically who are you, as crazy as it would sound to you, the answer would be the father, the son, and the spirit. >> So, okay. [snorts] So, back, oh, okay. So, that's why this question is so important. Um, back to that. I'm

going to repeat it one more time. So, and then you can answer it or, you know, scripture. So, if Jesus is fully God, how can the father know something the son does not? In Mark 13:32, it says, "No one knows the day or hour, not even the Son, only the Father." Right? I appreciate that question. And what I would say to that is when Jesus was here On this earth, he was fully God. He was fully man. In order to be man, there were certain things that God, as Jesus here on this earth, would limit.

God would limit um I guess he would limit himself in a capacity for him to come. >> But they're already together. They're already one. >> I understand that they're >> you see where where the loss is in this to make me confused. >> No, I understand that. But I would say That the intricacy >> because at this part, you know, at this at this state in the game, just based off off of your um elaborations and you explaining things, it's like it makes me think like, shouldn't they just be able to read each other's minds?

Like what is the praying for? What is the um you know, it just it's starting to get right. Right. I understand that. So again, so Jesus coming to this earth made a choice to take on flesh. The Verse that I was referring to when we had our first conver conversation was Philippians 2. There's a there's multitude of reasons why Jesus decided to come to take on flesh. The primary reason is to reconcile us back to the father. Another reason is to be an example to us. >> When he prayed, he showed us how to pray.

He showed us the correct way to pray. Now that's all that's I have something for that too because initially This the disciples asked Jesus what should we do how should we pray >> Jesus gave them the Lord's prayer >> right >> he was not attached to that at all >> but in the same book >> so where does that come from and where does in Jesus' name come from >> it comes from John 14 >> but what about the Lord's prayer because that's what the disciples that's what he gave the disciples >> right and So

ultimately what I would say is that the Lord's prayer does not negate Jesus being God. >> Him >> because they're one, >> right? So him teaching us as an example to pray, our father who is in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy [clears throat] kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It doesn't take away from the fact that Jesus is still God. As I said, when he Came to this earth, >> sorry, >> his ministry was multifaceted. The primary reason for his ministry, did he ever tell them to worship

him? his disciples when he was alive, >> they worshiped him naturally and he didn't reject it. So, what are your thoughts on that? >> Where can you show me that in the Bible? >> Yes. Let's see. Off the top of my head, I'm getting real, but um let us Okay. Uh here's an example. I'm glad I take notes in my scripture. Okay, it's Matthew 8. It says >> Matthew 8. Hold on. Let me get it. Okay. Matthew 8. >> Yes. So it says, "When he had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. And

behold, a leper came and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean." Then Jesus put out his hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing. Be cleansed. Immediately his leprosy was cleansed." The first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods before me." Mhm. >> If Jesus, fully aware of the commandments because he was a Jew, accepted worship and wasn't God, he would have been condemned and he wouldn't have he would have been delegitimized in that moment. But not only did he embrace the worship, he didn't reject the worship, he

healed the leper immediately. And there's a there's A there's a multitude of scriptures like this where he receives worship all throughout scripture. I'm sure you're familiar with um >> so basically he he taught his disciples to worship him and he told did he ever tell them that he was God because it's so many instances where he's saying to worship the father alone. So that's where the perplexities come in. >> I would say he did make it clear that he was God to his disciples. >> Mhm. >> I don't think so because it says so many

times to worship God alone. >> What about John 20? Let's look at John 20. >> Okay. Oh, here it is. Okay. So, John 20 verse 28. So, this is after he had just resurrected. He appears to them and verse 28 is he's speaking to his one of his disciples who's known as doubting Thomas. Okay. >> And it says, "And Thomas answered and said to him, well actually I'll fast I'll rewind a little bit to to 27." Um, no actually 26. So it says and after 8 days his disciples were again inside and Thomas with them.

Jesus came the doors being shut and stood in the midst and said peace to you. Then he said to Thomas reach your fingers here. >> A he said peace to you. That's what we say as Muslims. >> Yeah. And look at my hands and reach your hand here and put it into my side. Do not be unbelieving but believing. And Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God." >> Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed." Wait a minute. Where are you? Cuz I lost track. I'm sorry.

Um, that was verse 28. >> Okay. And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God." >> Would you say that to Jesus? >> No. >> But Thomas did. And look at what Jesus [clears throat] responds. He says, "Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed." Is he rejecting his affirmation that he's God or is he accepting it? >> I guess he's accepting it. >> And it says, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." So Jesus is calling me blessed because I have not seen

the holes in his hands but I believe just like Thomas that he is my Lord and my God. So you so you okay so you believe that he taught as a man when he was alive for those human beings to worship him. >> Absolutely. Because we're seeing that in scripture. We're seeing Thomas. We're seeing Matthew 8 the woman with >> in the flesh. >> In the flesh. He was in the flesh. That's why he said, "Touch my hand." He literally says, I think, um, "Reach your Feet." >> Now, in your day and age, if a

man came here today and did miracles, I want you to use your logical mind. >> Mhm. >> In 2026, if there was a man that called himself a messiah, who did everything that we did, he was married, he had children, he used the bathroom, he ate, he did all these things. But he started cuz there's going To be a man that comes back like that. And he started um to perform miracles and he was almost like a m like a magician and he asked you to worship him and pray to him. You wouldn't feel weird

doing something like that. >> Well, that's >> just because he shows you that he can, >> you know, certain miracles. >> No, the answer is no. that because that's a very limited account of what Jesus did. If it's supposed to be an analogy, I would say that it's not analogous. Why? Because as we started this conversation, Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament. Jesus was Jesus. Okay, there's >> no I'm just trying to get you to see. >> No, this is my logic because I have evidence that Jesus isn't arbitrary because the Old Testament, we

didn't get to visit such passages of like Zechariah 9:9 and 9:10 that make it clear that There's a Messiah coming. We didn't visit Micah 5:2. It says that there is going to be a ruler that comes from everlasting. This means that this ruler does not have a beginning or an end. And then it says something interesting. He's going to be born in Bethlehem. So if there's if someone presents a case to me and says 2,000 years from now, >> then you would be okay with worshiping a man. >> No, but that's not the that's not

my Position. >> Okay? >> It's it's a cumulative case. So I want you to to follow everything that I'm saying. Prophecy is is important. >> Okay? Jesus was prophesied very clearly in scriptures that that were written thousands of years before he was born. And then when he showed up on the scene, he actually fulfilled those prophecies. He claimed to be God. He received worship and then he made it very Apparent to us his love for us on the on the cross by not only dying but predicting his death and then resurrecting three days later. If

someone approached me and had this resume, I would have to consider it because that is not a human. That's not an ordinary thing. So, do you think Christians need something more tangible like that to believe >> to have it in in your face like a human form? >> No. Because as I just read, blessed are those that do not see me like Thomas and believe. I don't have him in my face. What I have is an undeniable truth through scripture. I have a the clearest example of love, which I hate to say it like this,

but I don't believe Islam has I don't believe that Islam can be comforted by the God that they believe in. Whereas, not only can we be comforted, >> the most comforted that I've ever felt In my entire life. The peace that I feel and the relationship that I have with my Lord is I mean, I can't explain it. And that really has to do with, you know, cuz it's all about your relationship. And we'll delve into >> Right. Yeah. And I I hated to bring the the put the uh Tahiti on trial here cuz we're

talking about the Trinity. >> But I want to say one last thing because we're now as far as you bringing up Scripture and everything like that. I do believe that the Bible has been tampered with. I do believe there are an immense amount of contradictions. So that's where we're going to differ that I can't believe everything that you show me because of believing that the Bible has been tampered with. So I want to ask you a question. >> Can I ask you something on that really quickly? Yeah. >> Do you think that's a copout though?

Because it Let me This is why I asked that >> because when something makes for This is what I've gathered from conversations like this. When something makes someone uncomfortable, meaning that it flies in the face of their theology. >> No. Because I'm going to show you proof >> that Oh, you're going to show me proof that it's corrupted. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, at first I have a question. Does Your salvation come from faith or works? >> It comes from faith. >> Okay. So, Jesus linked eternal life to actions. As Muslims believe that our good deeds

must outweigh our bad deeds. >> Where did he link it to action? >> Let's look at Matthew 19:16 through >> Oh, please. Let's do it. >> 17. >> Okay. Y'all did y'all did call it. You did say the Bible is corrupt claim is is is on the way. You said something like that. You did call it. I was sitting here thinking like, okay, wait. I think we making some very good progress. I think we going somewhere, right? I think we going somewhere. I didn't think she gonna, but this was and this is what I said.

I'm curious to see if she sticks with her original script or if she allows That stirring up in her heart that it looked like was happening. If she allows that to kind of reframe her conversation and her and her approach, but I guess not. Okay. 19 16- 17. Okay. And it reads, "And behold, one came and said unto him, good master, what good things shall I do, and I may have eternal life?" And he said unto him, "Unter commandments," which he just Said. Oh, am I reading the wrong one? I'm sorry. >> I think that

might be the right one. >> No. 16. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm reading the wrong one. My bad. Let me put my glasses on. Girl, I can't see. >> She do sound like Nicki Minaj. >> I'm just I didn't even see this. I love this is one of my favorite passages when it says, "And he said unto me, why Callst thou me good? There is none good but one that is God. Now Jesus is saying this and he's saying there is none good but one that is God. He doesn't sound like he's talking to himself or

about himself. How do you explain something like that if you believe that he's you get what I'm saying? >> No I understand your perspective. That's that is a challenging verse. I Personally don't think it delegitimizes Jesus's deity either >> because Jesus is still good and Jesus still sets out I I guess a case for his deity all throughout Matthew, all throughout Mark, Luke, and John. >> But you still can't. It's still there. It's still in your book. And it's that's a very very very prominent [snorts] verse right there because he's Speaking like what do you

say to that? But I still don't I honestly don't see it as him denying his deity. He said why do you call me good? No one is good but one that is God. But if you want to enter in into keep the commandments because I understand that Jesus is God. I don't see it as a denial of his goodness. Oh, okay. We got off we got off topic. Okay. So, what I was saying, you said that salvation comes from faith. Okay. So, I have in your book that Jesus linked eternal life to actions and Paul

taught that salvation is a free gift received from faith alone. Now, you can look at Romans 3:28. It says, "Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." >> And um >> I I do I I like that and we can talk about that offline, but I just kind of want to stay on the topic of the Trinity Because Paul tends to get smuggled into the conversations and I that's not relevant to what we're discussing. But if even and if we can continue to talk about Jesus, but I

just want >> I think the contradictions in the Bible though are are very important because this is the basis of the conversation. You're showing me scripture and I have to let you know that >> how am I supposed to agree with everything you're showing me when I have A stack full of contradictions in my hand? >> But I would Okay. So I think that the Bible has paradoxical statements. Are are you familiar? >> Yes. Right. Okay. So, when you inspect scripture honestly and sincerely, you see that there is no contra, >> you know, um, one

thing I want to say real quick. What verse was it? I do think it's interesting. Mark 10:18, I think this is what they were just looking at, right? Uh, the rich the rich young man. Uh, verse 17. And he was setting out on his journey. A man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Right? And then he goes on to say, you know the commandments. Do not

murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness. Do not defraud. Honor your father and mother. Right? I think it's interesting in how the rich young man addressed Jesus. He said, "Good teacher." Right? And Jesus is saying,"Wh do you call me good?" So it's almost as if he's rejecting That role of simply being a quote good teacher, right? Because nobody is good except for God alone, right? So it's not like he's not saying that he's not God, but he's saying, "Why do you call me good, right? Why do you assume that

I am good just based on the fact that I am a teacher?" which a lot of the assumption if you kind of think about it from the different religious like infrastructure and the Pharisees and stuff like that they were teachers Right were they good teachers they might have had knowledge but their heart was far from the heart of God right so I see that as like he's rejecting that title but he's not he's not therefore denouncing his deity but it's also like there's a there's a double component in the way that I see it in

terms of humanity. Humanity is is is not good. This flesh is not good. The only one that is good is God alone. And to to Chinasa's point, you go through the scripture and Jesus is in the Old Testament. Obviously, Jesus is in the New Testament as well. The case for Jesus being God is so evident, is so clear in so many different ways. So I don't believe that you can simply just isolate this verse and say that Jesus is telling us that he is not God just simply based on that verse. I don't think that

you can do that. So yeah, it does kind of seem like a copout in a similar manner to what Chinasa was saying. I wish she would have finished what she was saying in terms of like that copout reasoning >> contradiction. So, >> no, no, they're they're definitely contradictions. >> Okay, so let's look at the Paul thing then. If that's if that's your hang up, let's go ahead and look at it. >> What verses are you referring to? >> Okay, hold on. Let's see. All right, let's look at um we are justified by faith. Romans 3:20.

But I'm waiting on the part where she was saying that Jesus was promoting salvation through works, whereas Paul promotes salvation through faith. That's I she I don't think she presented the case where Jesus is promoting salvation by works. >> Romans 3:23, I believe, is >> unless she's getting to that. >> My favorites. >> Oh, no. I think it's 28. >> Romans 3:28. >> Mhm. [clears throat] By faith 28. Yeah. All right. So it says I'll read a little bit above that. Where is boasting then? It is exclus It is excluded by what law of works?

Not no but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the Deeds of the law. So a man is justified by faith apart. >> Now let's go to James 2:14. We are justified by works. >> Okay. All right. James 2:14. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works, can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says, "Depart in peace." Um, then it says, "Thus also by faith

Itself does not have works." 17 says, "Thus also faith by itself does not have works is dead." >> So, how do you explain that? >> So, I would explain it by looking at the context of James. James is talking about a illegitimate faith. How do I know that? Because in this very passage he says you believe there is one God. Good for you. Even the demons believe and tremble. The entire book of James at least this chapter is making a case that Belief is not the a headnowledge essentially because obviously demons believe there is God.

They acknowledge that he exists but their works are contrary to that belief because they're they do demonic things. They do wicked things. They harass and torment people. So James is making the case that you can't just say you believe. If you're a sincere believer, your actions should bear that out. James is not making the case that if you if you have good works, You're saved. >> Okay. Well, let's look at Ephesians uh where is it? Okay. Let's look at Ephesians 2 8-9 then. What Paul says. Okay. Ephesians 2 8-9. For by grace you have been

saved through faith and not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works less anyone should boast. >> Mhm. >> Say it one more time. >> It says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith." And that >> she said, "Say it one more time." Like she just got her in like a contradiction. >> Not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Now, my issue is that when it comes to the Quran, it says what it means and it means what it says. That's what

I fell in love with. >> I disagree with that >> and we we'll probably get into that when I tell you. But what so what's the Problem with this verse as far as a contradiction? >> Because in one instance it says that it's justified by faith and next it says it's by works. >> Where does it say works? Were you referring to James 2? >> Yes. >> Yeah. That I just explained to you. I just if you want to read James 2, we can >> No, I'm listen. >> We were doing so good. We were

doing so good. It's like, okay, we were we was we was listening. We were attentive. We were our hearts were open. We were attempting to understand. And now when the roles reverse and it's her turn to lead the conversation, it's like, I'm not going to listen to any of your responses. I'm just focused on getting off what I'm trying to get off. Like I and she literally just answered that question about James and it was a beautiful response. It was a beautiful Response. Yes, an individual can have head knowledge, right? Like the demons know. They

know what's up. They know who God is. They know who Jesus is. The demons know, right? There's a difference though because clearly that head knowledge that they have is not translating to anything that is fruitful. So so clearly there's a difference, right? So if if one is professing to Have a genuine faith in the Lord that will be evident because you will be changed, you will be different. You will be transformed. You will be renewed. you will be and that faith that you that you profess will compel you to do good works. So I [sighs

and gasps] you read it offline. Um James 2 is making the case that if you have faith, We God knows who has sincere faith. But you and me, if we're humans, I can't read your mind. So I would have to look at your actions to determine if your faith is sincere. That's why in the book of James, he compares faith and belief to the belief of Satan. Do you know the verse that I'm referring to in that same chapter? He said, "You believe there is one God, belief." Then he said, "Good for you. Even the

demons believe and tremble." >> So, it's not just enough to believe. Because do the demons do their actions show that they believe? >> No. >> Like, no. That's the point he's making. He's saying belief is not enough to profess to other people that you're a believer. People should be able to see that you are a believer by your actions. God knows our heart. >> She understands the concept. The Muslim woman understands the concept. It's just Whether or not she's going to be willing to accept it and apply it to the text. >> He doesn't need

to see if our actions are in line with our belief cuz he already knows. So this is not a case to say this is how you become saved. It's a case to the brethren to say if you are a >> But this is also something that we were talking about yesterday. Don't. Why? A lot of people, you're so afraid to let go of What you believe and what you think and your interpretation. You're so afraid to let go of it. You're so afraid because it's become your identity. It's become your safe place. It like you're

so afraid. And and a part of it is obviously the deception. And I think that there are a lot of people who are involved in Islam who um I've met some people who who are very Kind, very nice, very respectful, and I've I've met some people who are not, you know what I mean? But I think at the end of the day, they are deceived and they've been sold a lie and they've come into agreement with that lie. But don't reject the truth when it's right in front of your face. Cuz how many opportunities are

are are you going to get to reject the truth? At some point in time, time is going to run Out and there's going to be no more rejecting the truth. You're going to be standing face to face with truth in judgment. And then what? It's going to be like, well, I sent this person. I sent Shanasa. I sent, you know, I I I I sent all these people and they preached the word and it was it was on point and it was spiritled and you rejected it over and over and over and over and over

again. Well, that's the end of the video. But hey, I have an idea. I have an idea. Hey, go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go go go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Why are you still looking at me? Go. Go pray. Go pray. Go pray. Goodness gracious. I'm out, y'all.