Hey guys, and welcome to today's video. Today we have a sovereign citizen, Living Karen, that I've covered before in Judge Fish's courtroom. She actually has her jury trial today, so I figured we'd cover her motion to suppress the evidence against her to get us prepared. Now, previously when I covered her, it wasn't made clear exactly what she's being charged with, but in this video, it will become very obvious. Now, this hearing was over two hours long, so I've cut out a lot of the unnecessary bits for brevity purposes. But even with those cuts, this video
is still over an hour long and may just be one of the funniest offsets in courts I've ever covered with genuine stupidity from start to finish. We're going to start with the prosecution calling their first witness. So, grab your popcorn along with some court approved face palm protection and let's begin. Okay. Are you prepared for the suppression hearing? I am your honor. Yes. All right. How would you like to proceed? All right. It's it's defend defendants's motion. So, it is their motion, but often the state would uh go and present evidence related to the motion.
Have you reviewed the motion to suppress? Your honor, yes, I'm ready to proceed. I'll call my first witness. Do you believe it's defense burden on this one? I believe so, but let me look at it. Miss Butler, what's your position on the motion to suppress? You feel like you need to present evidence or should the state present evidence to show that they're uh the statement that they are relying upon is a viable one. I would like to present the evidence. You want to? Huh? You want to present evidence first? Um, I will follow whatever you
you you just lead me. Okay. So, I don't want to jump ahead. So, you tell me what you would like from me. State, I think you should go first on this. Yeah. Okay. I'm ready to call my first witness, your honor. Sure. Want to have him come up? [clears throat] And were you assigned to investigate a matter involving the defendant in this matter? Yes, I was. And do you see the defendant here in the courtroom today? Yes, I do. Can you please um point out where she's sitting? She's sitting at the table directly in front
of me. And who is the defendant? Tiara Butler. Can you please let the record reflect that the witness has identified the defendant? So noted. Can you um walk the court through um why you were investigating the defendant? Um I was contacted and received information from one of our analysts uh from our headquarters regarding suspicious fraudulent transactions that were being conducted by Miss Butler based on data that he was reviewing. Um, in response to that, I installed cameras into the facility to record her during the transaction time. And during a period of, I believe it was
May of 2022 through January of 2023. I located approximately 20 transactions that she had conducted with no customer present, uh, which were for cash refunds, uh, and other things. And uh so the next part of my investigation was to conduct an interview of Miss Butler. And when you say the the you place cameras in the facility, where what facility are we talking about? This is the Valparezo downtown post office. Is that located in Porter County? Yes, it is. Miss Butler was asked if she'd be willing to answer some questions and she she agreed. So then
we set up an area inside the post office um where we were going to conduct an interview of her. And then did you conduct [clears throat] an interview with Miss Butler? Yes, I did. And can you describe to the court um how that how what what did you first do in the interview? Uh well the first thing we did like I said we we got the room set up. We had chairs in position so that the three of us could sit down. Uh the first thing I did is presented her with what we refer to
as our Gity form. And it's basically an acknowledgement of rights form that we present to employees that are not in custody. And I went through that form with Miss Butler, presented it to her, she read through it. Um, once she completed and signed the form and we witnessed it, I I confirmed with her verbally that made sure she understood the rights that were explained that she had placed her initials next to um when she was completing it and she stated she did. Okay. And did you also sign that form? Yes, I did. And then did
agent Cleick also sign that form? Yes, he did. Agent Sil um Hyman states exhibit one. Do you recognize that? I do. And what is it? This is the Garity acknowledgement of rights form for employees not in custody that was presented and completed by Miss Butler. And is that a true and accurate copy of the a waiver of rights form that Miss Butler signed? It is. Okay. Your honor state would move to MIT states exhibit one. Any objection, ma'am? Yes, I do object. What's the objection? the jack that it was given towards the end of my
statement because I had to sign because I had the pen at the time because at the beginning I didn't have a I had the pen at the time and I have wrote I did sign but how you know that he signed it later is because look at the times at the end it's at 10:00 it's in his uh paymanship so your objection is related to authenticity or it's the end of the uh statement when I was writing the statement that's when I was given that form I wasn't evidentiary rule is your objection okay I was
just explaining that I'm asking you what's your basis for your objection what's the evidence my objection that he did not give it to me at the beginning he gave it to me towards the end I think it goes to authenticity or something but it's overruled we'll admit it we're actually going to see a lot of this throughout the video the softard making nonsensical objections like the times on the statements that she just admitted to in writing as not being proper even though she admitted on the record that she was the one who wrote them. And
there are um four uh paragraphs I would say listed one through four. Correct? Yes. Okay. And beside each of those paragraphs, Miss Butler did initial. That is correct. What does the first one say? It says, "I have the right to remain silent if my answers may tend to incriminate me." And number two, anything I say or do may be used as evidence against me in a court of law and in other proceedings, including administrative proceedings. And number three, if I refuse to answer questions because my answers may tend to incriminate me, I will not be
disciplined solely for remaining silent. And number four, this interview is strictly voluntary and I may leave or stop answering questions at any time. Okay. And again, that is signed by yourself? Yes. And it is also signed by Miss Butler? Yes. And it is also signed by agent Cleick. Yes. And what was the defendant's demeanor like throughout the interview? Um, she was uh appeared to be nervous. Um, her mouth was dry at times when she was speaking with us. Um, it was a Challenge to try to keep her focused on what I was specifically asking. Um,
because she tended to uh segue off into other things. Um, but she was responsive to the questions. And after Miss Butler signed her acknowledgements acknowledgement of rights form, what what what then happened? Um, I conducted the interview, asked her the questions that I wanted to ask regarding the the transactions that were captured on video. Um, she explained certain things that other employees um were stealing from her her drawer and her unit reserve. Um, she explained that she was having severe financial hardships at the time when she was assigned to that office. Her car was repossessed.
Um, [snorts] when she got it back, her interest rates were increased, her loan doubled. Um, [clears throat] and she just kept explaining things like that. And was Miss Butler given the opportunity to write out a statement at the end of the interview? Correct. We offered her the opportunity to write out a voluntary written statement. Wasn't mandatory. wasn't required. Um, and she agreed and chose to write one. And she did she and she wrote a statement. She did. And did she sign that statement? She did. And did you ever make any promises to Miss Butler? No,
I did not. Object. What's your objection? The reason I object is because he would not accept my statement. Oh, okay. So, does it sound to me like you're have an objection, Miss Butler? What it sounds to me like is you're about to try to engage in cross-examination. No, no, no. Yes, ma'am. Make sure you understand the order of proceedings. Okay. She's going to ask him questions. Okay. In the course of that time, you may have objections to certain evidence. Yes. Those evidentiary objections must be based upon evidentiary rules. Okay. What you attempted to do a
few seconds ago is start to say your side of the story or to question or ask about certain facts that you disagree with. And that's my job is to make a determination about whether or not the agent's telling the truth or not. Okay? And your job when you question him is to bring up the thing you just wanted to object about. Okay? In a question form to him. Do you understand? Yes. Okay. So, you've just got to work with how we do our process. Okay. And this objection, I'm not sure what your grounds would have
been, but I will overrule that objection and council may proceed for the state. Uh, agent, there were no promises or inducements offered to Miss Butler for writing out her statement. No, the statement was completely voluntary. She didn't have to write it if she didn't want to. And did Miss Butler ever ask to leave the interview? No. There was periods during the interview where she asked to get some documents that she was wanted to present to me and she got up and she went and got the documents from the other room. She came back. She presented
them to me. Um, but other than that, she never requested to leave or end the interview. Did Miss Beller ever ask rewrite her statement? No. Again, ma'am, I heard you say object, but it doesn't sound like it's an objection. It sounds like your proper cross-examination of this witness. Okay. So, hopefully you're noting down the things that we're talking about here so you can ask those questions of this witness. So, Agent Sego, again, Miss Butler was free to leave this interview at any time. Yes. I have no further questions, your honor. All right. So, that's the
end of the first witness's testimony. Now, we get to hear the defendant try to cross-examine him. Could happen. [snorts] on February 1st, um is it true um when I asked you who are you and um you stated that you was an interviewer and that you was only coming there just to interview all employees just to see how things are. You don't have no control of firing or doing anything in that matter. Is that true or false? The statement is not completely true. I I advised you that I was with the inspector general's office. No, you
did not. Yes, I did. And I showed you my credentials. No, you did not. That's a lot. That's That's not true. Okay, ma'am. And what we're doing there, that is called argument. Okay. Okay. So, you want to take those notes down. At the end of this, there's going to be the opportunity for you to tell me the reason why you think I should rule in your favor. And one of those would be that you think he's given a dishonest response to your question. Okay. So, that's the order of proceedings. I see you're getting emotional. If
you need a moment, we can take a moment. All right. [sighs] Next question. when we sat down, Andrew was in in the corner and you was on the side and um I decided actually, you know, to write a statement. When I wrote the statement, did you read the statement? When you completed the statement, I reviewed it. Correct. Okay. And did you as you read the statement, did you state that you are not going to take this statement unless I right I took food and money for gas? Because if I don't, you're not going to accept
it. Is that true or false? That is not true. Oh my god. Okay. If that's not true, let's keep going. All right. Uh, as we proceeded, did I ever ask for a copy? No. No. Let's start this one. Has I Has I ever asked for another statement? Because when I read my statement, it was with errors. Did I not ask you for another one? True or false? I do not recall you asking me for another statement for him. Okay. after that one. Um, true or false? Um, I'm trying to picture myself in that Moment how
exactly how it happened when you asked about refunds. Did I show you examination? uh I think it's called account accountability examination report and that I went into um where the postmass was and I went into the cabinet and I said I want you to look at the examination report see how it had changed cuz there was a lot of discrepancies before I came down there and n you looked at that report you said where is Don and I told you this young lady is retired You did you not say did you want a copy of
that? Yes or no? I believe I told you that if you wanted to give me a copy that I would take the copy from you. Yes. Okay. All right. So now for that being said um also in the statement when I wrote the statement did I ask you I mean you asked me this is how you did it. You asked me um if you write this statement stating that you can explain your hardship and state that you took money for food and gas that the prosecutor will be more lener to you. No, that is not
correct. When I presented you with the statement form after you agreed to and said you wanted to complete one, I explained to you that It was a voluntary statement and it needed to be truthful and accurate. So you trying to say we did not exchange the statement back and forth, true or false? I I don't understand what you're asking. What I'm saying is if I gave you the statement the first time to read, did you read it? Yes. True or false? The first time I gave it to you, do you read it? I honestly don't
recall if I read it prior to you completing it or if I read it after you signed the form, but I would have reviewed the form because in the form, anytime that you would have made a a cross out or anything like that, we have to have you put your initials over that crossout indicating that you did that. We also drew lines through any of the statement form. um when I had the statement and remember I was talking about a whole lot of stuff when you was interviewing me, right? I was talking about my um
the management. I talked about the poster inspectors. I talked about um people did not care about then I told you about the EEO that I had filed. I also told you about customers witnesses that is needed. she's testifying on or she can do that when she's No, no, no. This is part This is part I understand your objection. U is there a question in there somewhere? No, this was part of the interview when we was talking about it. That's how it end up on that paper. I understand. But is there a question you plan to
ask? Okay. Well, so all what I was doing was sustain the objection. Okay. Please ask your question. My question is, was you aware of those things before you came downtown? Was I aware of what things? Um, were you aware of my dealership situation? Was you aware of um postal inspectors ever investigating um the fraudulent activity that occurred down my at my job? Was you aware of that? No, I was not aware of that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um, let [clears throat] me see. Was you aware that management has a responsibility of internal control by Jans? Internal
control. Internal and control like meaning financial responsibilities. Are you aware of that? I am I'm aware that postal management does do certain things to monitor and control. Okay. Internal things. Um when you had made a statement before you came down to me um to cuz you say You had showed her her video, right? Um showing whatever alleged had happened. Um, did you ever stated I mean have you ever did any type of auditing with her anything like that in that matter? Without specifics I I I can't answer that question. Okay. The reason why I asked
is because um management was totally aware of what I was doing. totally aware. You should be very careful with what you say next because it's starting to sound like you're about to say that management was totally aware of the crimes that you were committing and didn't have a problem with it. When in fact, management being aware or unaware of the crimes does not make a difference when it comes to being found guilty of committing those crimes. And the reason why I asked these questions because I was listening to you how you gotten introdu and uh
how you got uh introduced to this by a data analysis. Correct. A data analysis have given you a uh a spreadsheet of fraudulent or refund transactions. Correct. That is how this investigation was initiated. That's how it started. Correct. Um, so do you automatically just just go directly to the employee or do you go directly to management employee or do you just do both? I go to where the evidence leads me. Okay. So, okay. Okay. Now, also I want to make one more statement and then I'm done with you. Okay. Going to make a statement or
you going to ask? Yeah. Well, I got one more question. [laughter] I got one more question. Um, if you was not aware of my financial situation, why is there evidence submitted to the court? I don't understand what you're asking. You have it. This is the hardship that I was explaining to you and I'm trying to Figure out why the court has it and it's in revalent to here goes for here and it was exhibit exhibit six. Um, the reason why I say this because I have gotten your evidence that you had submitted and I was
like, why is this private administration is submitted? And it's from it was addressed to Eric Holm, the governor at the time, and it was talking about the fraud that had occurred downtown and um what had happened and stuff like that. And I'm trying to figure out did you read this stuff before you came down there and that's why you wanted me to focus on financial hardship in the interview because it started to line up. Objection. Agent Viko already testified that he made no promises to her or I'm I'm sorry that he that he did not
ask Miss Butler to put anything in her statement about financial hardship. She did that on her own. Correct. Okay. So, I'll sustain that. Are you going to ask a question, ma'am? The question is, why is this submitted? This private administration process is submitted in as evidence. You presented this to me during the interview. That's why I had it and that's why I included it. And now you can have a seat back. The microphone can pick up your uh statements. It's I had no knowledge of that prior to you giving it to me during the interview,
which I accepted because you insisted that I take the statement, that document. That's why it's included in my report. I couldn't. Okay. Okay. I couldn't have. I'm sorry, but I couldn't have cuz we was in the interview. Yes, but you had access to documents that you said you wanted to give to me to present. That was one of the documents you presented to me. I had no knowledge of that prior to that interview with him. This was not given to you. Only thing I gave you, ma'am. So, this isn't a question. Okay. Sounds to me
like that would be testimony you would give of your own if you have a story that contradicts what the agent's testifying about. Okay. So, do you have any further questions? No. You honor. Honestly, I could listen to her ask dumbass questions all day long. However, she is done with questioning the witness, and it is now her time to call her witness and testify on her own behalf. That being said, the judge realizes he's dealing with someone who probably has an odd number of chromosomes. So, he's going to warn her about the dangers of testifying on
her Own behalf, especially as an ignorant prosay litigant. Before you get started, hey, I need to have your attention for this. Uh, do you plan to testify today? to explain everything. Yes. You plan to testify? I can. Okay. So, I'm going to put you under oath. Okay. When you testify, do you understand that? Yes. And you you know what the fifth amendment is? I can weigh my rights if I you know to self not to selfcriminate myself. So, you understand what the fifth amendment is? That you don't have to give any statement that would be
incriminating. Yes. Did you know that if you testify and I put you under oath and you testify that the prosecutor is going to have the opportunity to cross-examine you? This is not trial, is it? Ma'am, this is a hearing. This is a hearing and there is evidence that is being uh presented at this hearing and if you are under oath and you testify, the state's going to have the opportunity to cross-examine you. Okay? And if they ask you a question, you're going to have to answer it. Okay? You understand that? Yes. Can I have and
that you can't invoke your fifth amendment rights after you've already waved them. Okay, I can understand that. Yes. So, I'm going to have you answer whatever question they ask. Okay, that's fine. You realize that? Yes. You're willing to accept that risk? Yes. [laughter] Okay. You understand that it's probably not in your best interest? It's probably not in my best interest at this time. Or do you understand that? I do. Not really completely. But before we move on to the prosecutor um interviewing me, can we please interview Andrew first? Ma'am, it is your case. If you
want to put Yes. Can we bring Andrew? Andrew, I'm sorry. Um I would be more formal if I knew your last name. Uh on the witness stand, then you could have him testify. Would you like to call him as a witness? Yeah. Well, I can call him as a witness, please. Okay. Then you're going to want to say I call I call Andrew as a witness to the stand, please. Okay. Okay. Andrew, when you um attend to the interview, was you um sitting there witnessing? Both are our actions. Um George actions and my action. Was
you notating this? Yes, I was present at the interview and I took notes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Um towards the end of the interview regarding to the statement, do you witness George reading the statement? I don't recall if he did or not, but I I'm sure that special agent Masilco read the statement with you. So when Okay, let me ask you this question. How far apart that you were standing by each other that you could not see him reading? We were We would have been close. Are you talking at during the interview? Yes, cuz it was
very small. Yeah, we would have been next to each other. Exactly. So, you're trying to say you did not see him pick up a piece of paper that he did not read the statement. You didn't see him at all. So you is that's what you're saying, ma'am. I've I've interviewed with a special agent with Silo several times. Um and he is pretty thorough. And typically, you know, he would review again when statements are completed that they would be reviewed. Okay. So I'm asking you, he you see him read it. That's all I'm asking. Again, I
I don't recall for sure, but I I I'm sure he did. Okay. Now, next question. Did you ever see George give me the statement back and told me to write again? I had to write the first time, then I wrote again, which was the second paragraph. I'm not sure what you're asking. Let me ask you again. Do you ever see me sitting down writing down the statement? True or false? I believe you can put the statement that day. Yes. Okay. Did you see me hand the statement after I got done? Yes. It was given back
to special agent Vila. Okay. Did you see George hand me back the statement? I don't again I think you gave it to special agent with Silco. He he would have reviewed it with you and then obviously it was taken so he could put it in his case file and it would have been presented to a prosecutor and then uh USPS management. Did you see statement? I mean, did you see George stand there by the door pacing and stated that he would not accept my statement unless I write that I took food and gas? Did he
ever make any type of statement like that? I did not see that. So, you're trying to say that you didn't hear anything. You was standing sitting right next to him, ma'am. That I believe that the Are you talking about the food and gas comment? Yes, that food and gas comment. That's the only one I'm really trying to get you right there. Did you ever hear George make a statement that I need to admit that I took money for food and gas? I did not. No further questions. Someone needs to call the department of grammar and
let them know that she needs to be prosecuted for an assault on the English language. Nevertheless, she is done with her witness and now it's time for her to testify. Is there any further evidence, Miss Ber, you wanted to present? Yes, I do. Give me I was trying to look for because I did not have it all together. It was a form that I presented that I gave to him during the interview. Give me just a second. Okay, judge. Did I hand this to you or to you? So, I'm not sure what it is. Um,
but before you do anything with it, I'm going to put you under oath. Okay. Okay. And I just want to admonish you again. I don't want to chill your right to be able to testify on your own behalf. Okay. Okay. Because I feel like that the motion to suppress rights under the Fourth Amendment, you're going to be able to talk about whatever you want to talk about. Thank you. Um, but you still have a fifth amendment issue that you need to be fully aware of. Yes, you say incriminating things, state's going to get a chance
to cross-examine you. They're going to have to cross-examine you in what we call the scope of whatever you testify about during your direct, but anything you say can be used at trial for what we call impeachment. So, if you change whatever testimony at trial that you might give today, they'll be able to use whatever you said today and say that you said something different today. Okay? You understand all this? I'm I'm following you. Okay? So, I just want to make sure you're aware of what you're doing. Please raise your hand to be sworn. Do you
swear or affirm under penalty of perjury to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Yes. Okay. So, what's important for me about this document is that you first identify what it is. What's this document you have in your hand? This document is a um it's the post office uh retail floor for the stamp stock. Okay. Okay. And how did you come to possess it? Um, I had one of the employees give it to me. Okay. And do you believe that it's a true and accurate copy of whatever the employee gave to you? Yes.
Okay. Is that employee is that employee uh still employed with the postal service? They might have, but I don't know. They not there no more. Do you know their name? Yes, I do. [sighs and gasps] Well, you'll have to share it with us. Uh, Mr. Stanley. Mr. Stanley provided that to you. And was Mr. Stanley providing that to you in the course of his own occupation at the postal service? Yes. Okay. Why don't you show it to council so she can have a look at what you've got there? We'll have it preliminarily marked as the
finance exhibit number one. Is this your only copy of the exhibit? Um, I only brought one for myself. I mean, if you give it to me, I'm taking the copy. That's fine. I'm not giving it back. It's fine. I'll make sure you're clear. Or can I just bring you a legible copy? Cuz I can bring Well, this is going to have to be the one cuz it's on the front and the back. Let me see if I have another copy. And Miss Butler, I'm gonna have you bring that up to me. I'll make a photocopy
of it so that uh we don't take your last copy. All right. Now, would you like for me to admit defendants number one? Admit defendant number one. Okay. So, you would say, your honor, I would move to admit defendants exhibit one. Your honor, I would like to admit exhibit number one. I'm going to be objecting. Um first of all, I to relevance first of all. I don't know what Miss Butler is trying to Get out of this exhibit. It's not relevant to the her own motion today, your honor. The proceedings today, it has nothing to
do with suppressing her Yes, it does. Um and and I would object to it's not authenticated correctly. Um if she got this from Mr. Stanley, he's not here to testify to the authenticity of this document. I don't even know what this document is. Um, I believe it's some stamp stock sheet, but again, it's she's not going to be able to properly admit it without um it being authenticated by whoever gave it to her, whoever wrote it. Okay. Can I So, I need your response on relevance. Okay. First off, my name is on here. Um, no,
no, no, no. Relevance. How is it relevant? How is it relevant to this case? It's because No, no, no, no. How is it relevant to your motion to suppress? How is it relevant to This is the motion. This is the statement that was given to the OIG because I mentioned something about um he wanted a copy and I said something about Don. This is what I given him because I wanted him to invest further. Okay. But how is it relevant to the question that we have here which is that The handwritten statement you provided was
given by inducement, coercion or improper promise. What does this document have to do with that? Well, this document is basically it's I know about the suppression about the statement, but I also put in there what was handed to him about that what was given to him because I remember I had asked for a copy of my statement so I can clear up some errors. Okay. But he refused to give me a new form. Okay. Okay. And then I'd end up also stating that I went and So you think it's relevant to impeachment of their testimony.
Yes, it is because um they fine. I understand your position. Now the state brings up that it's not properly authenticated. I ask you a few questions, preliminary ones about how you got the document. I got it through the post office um uh county uh what do you call it? The fouls. the files that that I copied for him. It's the same files that I he got copies of. Okay. And he went in and got another copy of the same document. Okay. And it was given to him. And so here I agree with the state that
you haven't properly authenticated the document. But in addition, it is Hearsay and it is hearsay that doesn't fall within any of our hearsay objections. Okay. exceptions rather exceptions because of that I have to not admit it but regardless because you've offered it we still need to take the document from you so please rise up and bring it back up to me I need you to bring it back up here that's fine but we need to take them one at a time so I'm going to take this uh defendants one is not admitted I grant or
I'm sorry I sustain the objection to admissibility. What else, ma'am? I have a daily closeout certification checklist. Okay. This is um is needed that he or [snorts] management that's supposed to do on a daily checkout regard to money orders, stamps, refunds. This is necessary cuz this is what he had asked me in the interview. Okay, hold on for a sec though. Uh, let's try to get the document admitted. So, you remember the process here. You're going to want to stand up, take it over to the court reporter. She's going to put Defendance 2 on it.
We're going to be able to use that number for identification purposes. You're going to want to show it to the prosecutor and then tell me more about it. How did you come into possession of this document? I already have this document already. Okay. How did you get it? working there. Did you run this report? Yes, I had to run multiple reports. Is this a report that you specifically ran? No, it's just my daily checkout reports. Like just say for example, when I go downtown and go to the main, I would exchange reports cuz I they'll
run out and I'll just give them a copy of it because we have to wrap them up sometimes. Okay. So, let me ask you again. Okay. How did you come into possession of this report? by working at the post office. And while you're working at the post office, are you in files? Are you at a computer attached to a printer? Yes. How did the document how was the document generated? Um, it's just copied. It was already generated. It's just a a repeated copy. Okay. Now, let me ask again then. How was it generated? Copied. It
was not copied. It had to have been printed first. Yes, it had to been print. Well, I was just telling you how I received it. And on what system was it generated? What system it was generated? I think um management will use uh what you call it workforce I mean word and they will actually generate all the information that we need to do on a daily basis. Did you input all the data in to create that form? No, I did not. Did you sit at the computer and press print for that form? No, it was
already preprinted. Did you take the document that you found already printed and photocopied on a photocopy machine? Yes. Yes. All right. And you're moving for the admissibility of defendants exhibit number two? Yes. State. I'm going to object to same issues. Relevance, your honor. It's not going to be properly authenticated and hearsay. Ma'am, what on what do you have on relevance? How is this important to your question about whether your statement was coerced? Well, according to my statement being coerced, he asked me about um the ledger that's listed and he asked me um Okay. It's in
there. It's in there. He asked me again, you're using it for impeachment purposes. Yes. Yes. is he asked me what do you want to try to add anything about authenticity? H do you want to try to add anything about authenticity of the document? I mean that's as as best as you can get it. I mean did you at any point look at the computer screen of whatever generated this document and compare the two to make sure whatever that was on the the printer screen the computer screen was the same thing that was generated by the
printer. We didn't never use a computer, your honor. Only you've never saw the computer original of this. No, we never use one from computer. It will always been passed to through each other like we'll bring it downtown or the main we'll make a few copies or send it in up. Okay. Do you have any response on hearsay? Do you falls in under any of our hearsay exceptions? No. No, it's not hearsay. is is required because it shows this is financial documents that I am presenting to you honor because you cannot present something. Go ahead, ma'am.
The question is to admissibility. Okay. It might not be hearsay because I'm not really sure what it is altogether. But I think it is hearsay because it's somebody else's statement. I'm not sure what it's meant to do here because I'm not sure it's relevant. But in any case, exhibit 2 is not admitted. Uh it's not relevant. is not authenticated to be hearsay. It It is reent. Please bring that up as well. This sound like an unfair trial. As unfair as it may seem, the judge is doing everything in his power to help you out. This
should be considered a great example of why it is always a bad idea to represent yourself in a criminal matter. It's not unfair, ma'am. There are rules of evidence. When you did your Ferretta hearing, you and I went through and talked about how you're going to have to be responsible for presenting evidence and you're going to have to be responsible for knowing the rules of evidence and knowing the rules of procedure and how everything works. You told me you would do that. Okay? And I told you that if you do a bad job or if
you're not able to get your documents authenticated, we talked about it specifically or admitted into evidence that that was going to be on you and that you couldn't come back later and say, "Well, judge, I was a bad lawyer." or tell the higher court, "Well, judge, I was bad lawyer in my own trial. I did a terrible job and I've been convicted of this." You can't come back and do that. So, you have to be able to present your case like a lawyer because you've asked to represent yourself in I did and I did. I
understand. Yes, I did. And the rest of your evidence 55 minutes left and we still have to get to your motions and limited. Um, so every time I present something, you saying it's not authenticated. I thought we was just talking about the motions. Like you said, everything that you try to admit into evidence here has to pass stringent rules of evidence before it can be admitted into this proceeding. It's not relaxed rules of evidence. This ain't small claims court, right? There are no relaxed rules of evidence. There are big kid court rules of evidence here.
So, can I go get it authenticated and resubmitted? No, ma'am. Today is your hearing. you've known about this hearing for I don't know a week just last week and only thing you had mentioned to me you would have had to have gotten the documents authenticated in advance and I can't teach you how to practice law you chose to represent yourself and now here you are at your hearing probably incapable of getting in the documents that you want to get in even if they are relevant and it's not my problem it's a you problem yes I
understand that and no you can't go get them and come back because this is the hearing You go to trial in like two weeks or so. Mhm. So, authenticate them. Oh my god. I think I might have some that I actually foul. I can't teach you how to practice. No, no, no. Do you have any idea what you would have to do to authenticate uh any Hold on. Do one of these? I think I did it already. It was way back last year. I did authenticate them. I don't think you have, ma'am. I had actually
got it. I don't think you can authenticate them yourself if that helps. The documents came from the post office. No, I cannot authenticate them, but they are very relevant to this case into this matter to order to prove theft. Okay, ma'am. They are very relevant. But what about your motion to suppress where you say that was from you? My motion to suppress is very truthful and honest. Sounds like you're arguing. You're under oath. You're supposed to be testifying now. Are you going to testify now? Um, no. I'm not testifying, but I'm explaining. Then I will
testify. Well, if you're going to explain, that's argument. Wait till after your testimony to give me whatever argument you're going to give. Okay. Okay. Do you have any other evidence you want to present? Uh, [sighs] if it's not authenticated by me, you could authenticate documents you produced yourself. Only thing I really did It's my motions that I did, which wouldn't be evidence, ma'am. It's already part of our record. I got a question for you, your honor. Probably not going to answer it. It's not question and answer time for the court. Okay. Time for you to
be testifying or presenting evidence related to your motion to suppress. We are down to 52 minutes. I'mma hurry it up. Can I testify then? You can, but that doesn't mean you should, especially when part of your testimony is going to be admitting to the crimes that you're being accused of. Go ahead. What do you want to tell me? I want to tell you about my job. Um, please keep it relevant to your motion to suppress. Okay. I've been working for the post office for 17 years and um I always try to follow the rules and
procedures. Um I was not really trained thoroughly on my position. Management have a internal responsibility for stamp stock refunds, money orders and um everything that contain contained financially. When I discovered that management was not um doing their job, I reported it to the EO and they refused to train me when I got into that position. Um, also I want to let you know that according to um refunds, I actually requested through management to use the refunds because they would never offset the debt or they would never look into it when I keep reporting it that
um it's keep messing in my stock up because we have a ma'am. I need to redirect you here. Okay. I need to say this though. I got I don't think I need to say it because it's not relevant to what you said. It is. It's in my statement to consider in your statement. Your honor, please don't talk over me because my court reporter can't type what both of us at the same time. Your motion to suppress says that at your interview that they coerced a statement. They did. Okay. Okay. And the evidence that you've just
talked about in your testimony has nothing at all to do with that. Well, let's talk about my evidence. Then talk about the interview. The interview about what they did to coers you at that interview. Okay. So, stop talking when I'm talking, okay? And contradict whatever evidence you wanted to contradict while they were testifying. Okay? Let me close my eyes. At the interview, I asked my postmaster who was these two young gentlemen that come in. She said she didn't know. As I sat down, they had Andrew was on the right of me sitting on the garbage
can and George was on the right by the door. He was standing there. Um he mentioned that um about you do not have to answer the questions. He did mention he just stated that that you can plead the fifth. I at that point I'm like pleading the fifth for what and as we proceeded um he start asking me questions to have a long been working for my job and stuff like that and I told him how long and Then I end up start talking about the EFT the EFT regarding to the money orders that we
got scammed. I was talking to him more about that regarding to um management did not intervene and they end up making me pay for something that was irrelevant towards me because I wasn't not responsible because management did not step in to verify or um also to make sure I was doing things correctly. And only reason why I did the money orders is because um Postmaster knew the customer. The customer wanted to set up a trust and she came in and got money orders through me. So he didn't want to talk about that. He wanted to
talk about the refunds. So I was like, "Okay, let's talk about the refunds." He asked me did I know anything about the PVI uh the the meter. Um I think it was about the express and I said yes. And then um he also told me to explain and then he also asked me about the PO box customer about PO box um uh 509 which was Charles Mars and he asked me about a money order. when I asked when he asked me about the money order and it was $160 and I said yes, I know about
that um Money order, I said the customer had um given it to me towards the end of transaction because the customer John Mars was a elder and I've been knowing him for over 10 years and he was in a retirement home at the time. So he would have a neighbor, different random people would come up there and assist him and bring stuff and make sure his mail or whatever. When it was time for them to close out um the transaction, the young lady bring she brought me a key and then my job is normally take
the keys back and I end up getting her a uh uh what do you call it? A refund. Okay, I gave her that. And when I gave her that, she was filling it out and I put the keys away and then as I was coming back, she's like, "Oh, never mind. Um, you can have the refund." I didn't even know how much it was at the time. You know, I get money from customers all the time for being a good, you know, good customer. Good customer service. Yeah. Okay. I'm sure customers are just dropping you
hundreds of dollars at a time in the form of refunded money orders for good customer service. Now, for those of you who aren't aware of the common money order refund scheme, the way it works is a cashier will take money for a money order and process it, then immediately refund the sale of the Purchase and pocket the money order so that their cash drawer comes out even at the end of their shift. The only people that will ever know that something went wrong is the company guaranteeing the money order, which is almost certainly what happened
in this situation. So, I ain't think nothing about it. But when he interviewed me and told me about that and I told him, "Oh, I know the customer. Don't worry about it." And stuff like that. I said, "Don't even use that." So then he asked me about other stuff regarding to like you know I have experiencing hardship and that's the reason why you doing the refunds and I was like yes I am I have exper you know receiving um hardship. I said, um, a customer came down here and ran my credit and tried to sell
sell me a car and it was some fraudulent activities and I had reported to the poster inspectors and they did not do anything about it. And so that's how that got introduced into um the statement. And so after that um he I told him about the training. I said they didn't really want to train me down here. they just don't care. Every time something happened, they don't do nothing about it. So he said, "Write a statement." So I'm like, "Okay." So that's when I start writing my statement. That's why I said my job has been
sat sabotaged and that management. I start naming all the management postmaster um poster inspectors. And then I stopped talking about the dealership, the Fraudulent activities and everything that was going on that nobody didn't care. And then I also mentioned something about I was using my own money to offset the debt cuz I got tired of doing it because we I have a uh some evidence to show you what happens cuz when you don't um offset the I mean like we have like a stamp threshold that's $100. As long as you stay under $100, it does
not create a 571, which is a discrete a discrepancy report. No, you just That's part That's part of it. I need to stop you. Okay. Okay. Because we got to drill down on this. I've got motions to suppress and we got to do the pre-trial. We have 45 minutes left. What I need Can you tell me in your own words? How did they induce you to make your statement? It was towards the end when he read it and he didn't want to take it. So tell me exactly what happened. That was I just written up
my statement and I looked at and I read it and I said Dane I need another form and that's when he was like no you just initial like he did say he said just initial though it marks and then when he read it he was like I'm not taking this and I was like why not you said because you need to say that you took money and gas I mean took money for food and gas and I was like but I did not do that. And he said, "Well, I'm not taking your statement then." And
I was like, I said, "Okay, under one Condition." This is what I did. I said, "Under one condition." I said, "If I write this, if I write this, would I get a copy of it?" And he said, "Yes, you will get a copy." So, what I did was I wrote the statement. He said, "Make sure you explain about your hardship." Okay? And I was like, "Okay." And then um when I wrote it down because that's the second paragraph towards the end um I reserved my rights. I reserved my rights without prejudice under um without prejudice
because I wanted to challenge it. And the reason why I wanted to challenge it because I want to file a union because my union store wasn't there. So that's the reason how okay it was written the way it was. You don't think there was any improper promise? Improper prompt. Yes, that was that was the improper grunts. He he refused to take my statement as it is. Cuz if you look at it from the beginning to the end, it's runon sentence. Like you said, like he was telling me in the interview, I was talking about everything
and then it end up conflicting on the paper. I was talking about everything. Is there anything you want to add? I need I'm just trying to keep you on task because I'm running out of time. Like I said, unreented and you got into a lot of things, but Only needed to hear those specific parts about what you think happened that was either inducement, coercion, or improper. That was the Yeah, that was it right there. That was what was important to me. Yes. Are are you not going to put that statement in? Is that a strategic
reason? No, your honor. I'm I mean I would like to put it in, but I I mean given You don't want to put it in? No, I do. Okay. So, let's get it in through Miss Butler. Uh go ahead. Before I Can I say something before I really object? Because if you read that statement, I mean, just read the context because apparently you're not reading it. If you just read it, it talks about more like a whistleblower, like somebody's trying to express something that's going on in the in the job. The only person you're whistleblowing
on is yourself. And you should probably stop talking at this point before you hurt your case even more. Miss Butler, you said certain things about when certain things were written in the statement. That's what I really want to take a look at. Yes. I need to read it out loud, please. No, ma'am. I'm not going to read anything out loud. It's not story time for me. It's not story time for you, but I'm gonna go ahead and let the prosecutor cross-examine you at this time. Okay. State, Miss Butler. So, it was explained to you at
the beginning of interview at the beginning of the interview that you did not have to answer uh the special agent's questions. Is that correct? No, that's not correct because that's what you just testified to though, that you were told that you did not have to answer their questions. Is that to me? No, he's he just stated that I can plead the fifth. That's what he stated. I can plead the fifth. But in my mind at the time, I stated that why would I plead to fifth? Cuz I don't like what you're talking about cuz like
I just said, I didn't know who they were. But you you still continue to talk to special agents. Is that correct? You you had a they interviewed you. Yeah, they interviewed. Like I just said, I know who they were. Can you take the mic closer to you? [laughter] Go ahead. And you um were presented with um you were able to to write a statement, correct? Yes, I was able to write a statement. Yes, I was. Okay. And you wrote that statement, correct? Yes, I did write the statement. Yes. Your honor, if I may approach the
Yeah, please. All right. Miss Butler, I'm showing you what's been marked as states exhibit two. Do you recognize that? Yes, I do recognize it. Okay. And what is that? This is the statement that I have written. on February 1st. And is that a true and accurate copy of the statement that you wrote on February 1st? Is it a true and accurate copy? This is this is a copy. This is not a true copy, but this is a copy. This is not an original statement. That's why I say this is a true and accurate copy of
your statement. But it's a copy of the state. is not the original. Where's my original statement? But yeah, it's it's the statement. Your honor, state would move to admit states exhibit two. Any objection, ma'am? OB I mean I object because due to the fact that it doesn't flow and and and also it doesn't state who it doesn't say where it doesn't say from. It doesn't even line up with his statement because if butler no I'm looking at the statement as it relates only to the motion to suppress. Yes. And the reason why I'm suppressing because
it's not a voluntary statement. When you voluntary a statement, it needs to be clear. It needs to be voluntary that I this is like this like just like I gave you my emotion. It has to be clear. This is not a clear statement, your honor. Ma'am, that's not a proper objection. Do you have any grounds to object? But my grounds to object that this is not a clear context statement. a dozen states. It's not a clear statement, your honor. All right. It's overruled. States two is admitted, judge. I'm happy to have a look at it.
In fact, I think I have to for this hearing. Further questions? Um, yes. I guess um regarding the statement, Miss Beller, so again, this is your statement that you wrote, correct? And you initial at least like you initial on each page of that statement, correct? Yes. I initial with a little errors that I was trying to correct at the time. And you also signed that statement, correct? Yes. And I reserved my rights. Can you look at that? Did that's on the paper? Yes. It's there without prejudice, didn't it? Doesn't it say without prejudice? It does.
So that statement was written that way because I wanted to challenge under circumstances I was under cuz there was nobody else but those two men and myself. And look at if you just read it. Just read it. I don't think it matters that you told on yourself in a written statement in front of two men and then signed your confession with all rights reserved. That's a softient myth that's been debunked many times now. And I have I have no further questions. Okay. Yeah. Ma'am, did you want to add anything then in sort of a redirect
of yourself? Did you want to try to say anything else? I mean, like I said, I reserve my rights and I basically um did that so I can later challenge it and let them know what the mis misconduct that occur led me to write the last paragraph. And also, it doesn't state that I took money from the post office. It doesn't state anything about the um refunds. It doesn't state any type of criminal uh person. No, because it's not a clear statement. I'm trying to figure out how can you submit it just because it got
exhibit on it that it doesn't correspound truthful. It doesn't make any sense. This may be great for the trial, but we're here on a motion to suppress today. I know. And I'm only trying to look I'm only trying to look at whether there is evidence related to the motion to suppress. Okay. Yeah. And that's that's it. Anything else you want to add? Uh any other testimony you want to provide? Any other evidence you want to provide? Documentary evidence at this time? Well, I would like to submit evidence that there's no proof of theft. All right.
That's not evidence, ma'am. That's argument. It is. No, ma'am. That's argument. Most assuredly, it would be argument. That's not even relevant. So, on the motion to suppress, state argument. Thank you, judge. just briefly. Um, so your honor, um, we heard from agent, uh, Kick and, um, uh, excuse me, thank you, Vasilo today, your honor. Um, they both testified that, um, Miss Butler, they interviewed Miss Butler at the, um, downtown VRO post office that um, when they first started the interview, she was given her waiver of rights form, which she stated, she understood. She even testified
today that um, she was told that she could leave at any time. um she signed that form. She initialed, she said that she understood it. Um she still went forward with the interview. She was able to leave at any time. There was no um doors closed. There was no um hindrance for her to move to move about to actually leave the that interview, your honor. Um she wrote um her statement, which is states exhibit 2. Um she wrote that out free and voluntarily. Um we heard testimony um from um AJ Vokco that at no point
did um Miss Butler asked to rewrite that statement. Um Miss Butler signed that statement um dated it. Um she um we heard testimony that she was not coerced any in any way. She wasn't made any promises regarding her putting certain things in that statement. Um your honor, given that and this was a non-custodial um uh interview. She was told that at the very beginning. Um given that your honor um the her statement um and the interview should not be suppressed. I object and let me tell you why I object. Wait a minute ma'am. Wait a
minute ma'am. Okay. Say thank you. Yes. I just need now for you to argue it. Sure it's an objection but it's just your contrary argument. Go ahead. The reason why I in support of your motion to suppress. The reason why I object you can't just up and leave out of an interview. We are taught to cooperate and whenever a officer is presented you must cooperate and we are not taught to leave from any type of interview. We I mean we have to comply if I wanted to leave. I mean I would left but I couldn't
leave. I was in a situation on the clock and I was instructed by postmaster. It's not like I did it at home. I was instructed by the postmass to speak with Them. And by me be giving instruction, I cannot just say no, I'm not talking to them. So when I went back there and spoke with them, I cooperated with them. And not knowing who they were because that being a small office, different random people come there all the time to talk to me about retail products and all kind of improvement. So I'm thinking they're one
of them. I didn't know who they were and still they start asking questions and we've been scammed. So I'm thinking they come to talking about the scam that we've been scammed on. So of course I'm going to comply and talk about the scam what had happened at the post office. I have record of that too. Anything else you want to add, ma'am, on the motion to suppress? I just want to know through my prepression. You want to know what? In my suppression that the OIG now follow procedures, protocol procedures. I just want to know that
they follow procedures. Okay. All right. That's all I want to know. All right. Miss Butler. Um, did you get the copies of the uh states witness and exhibit list for trial? And I have been in the envelope that uh my staff just gave you. Oh, one more thing. One more thing, your honor. Go ahead. With my suppression, I did mention Something about documents, financial documents. cuz I'm trying to figure out where is the documents. Ma'am, do you believe you have all your discovery in this case? I think that's I think I did. Put that in
there. You received everything from the state? I didn't receive I only received um certain things, but there was no financial documents in there. Did you get your records from Mr. Pribble? Yes, but no, he sent them to me email, but he did not hand give them to me. Do you object to us having your email address so that the court clerk can email you orders and things from the court and make it part of the Odyssey uh system for serving you documents since you're prosay? Can we have your email address? Yeah, you guys have my
email address. We don't have it. Can we have it? Oh, yeah. I can give it to you. What is it? Um T forgmail.com. We'll start with the witness list. You going to have a seat with that stuff. They filed this yesterday. The state of Indiana filed this yesterday. So, you can see they've got their witness uh list there. And just because they've l listed these witnesses doesn't mean that they will all be here or that they will all testify. You understand that? This is a list of witnesses, but it doesn't promise that they're going to
offer testimony or that they'll even be here. I want you to realize that. Do you understand? Yes. Okay. And do you see the exhibits there? Spend some time with the exhibits. Looks like there are about uh nine things. Well, there are seven things and then some catch all. Okay. So, this is mine. Okay. Can I ask you a question about one of these exhibits? I'm I'm just one not exhibit witness will Dory the poster will she be able to attend? I don't know because that's the one that I need to really address some things with
her because last time we were here I told you that if you wanted me to have people come I needed to you get their addresses and things. But the state has Dory on there. Dory is one of the their witnesses and irrespective [clears throat] of that I I just explained just because she's on this list doesn't mean she this is very unfair your honor because what's unfair about it ma'am be this what where's unfair is that the young gentleman just was defe on on the stand regarding ability I'm the one who decides whether or not
somebody lied for today you understand that that's what I do I got you but I what you going to do during your Yeah. And I I it just this is my first time. So, please have mercy on me. I'm learning. I'm observing. I am trying to get through this. I'm the one in a victim in this matter. I'm been going through all this. While they still have their jobs, I'm jobless. They still have their jobs and you're jobless because you got caught on camera stealing from your job. Miss Butler, all I'm trying to find out
is my statement. My statement is needs to be suppressed because it does not clearly state who, where, when, and how. And also, Miss Butler, we've moved on from your statement and the motion to suppress. We're now talking about witnesses. You've suggested you want Dory Veligan here. I just told you if you want her here, you need to get her address to me if I can get a subpoena. I don't know. I don't know cuz I I left that posttop 3 years ago. I don't know where everybody stays. I don't either. And I'm not going to
do your super sleuth work. Well, that was part of I thought the the state would know where they live because they part of their witnesses, not their job. Well, if you want to guarantee her appearance here as best you can, you need to get me her address. And I'm going to put a deadline for addresses. Um, we're set on the 18th, right? Yes, your honor. Uh, so I think a week from today, July the 30th, if you're going to get any if you want any subpoenas sent, you have until July 30th to get that to
me so I can get subpoenas down to the clerk and they can get them served. Even that it's going to be tight. So, you're trying to say that I don't have no evidence in the record and that's what you're saying that I can't submit no evidence cuz my stuff been submitted already in the record. I never said anything like that. Um, I don't know what you mean by it, but what I did say earlier today is that you're going to have to learn how to authenticate evidence and make it ready for submission in the trial.
Nobody has any evidence into the trial yet. If if that was what you were the trial hasn't started yet, so there's no evidence into the trial yet. Okay. So, is can I ask you this question because I'm learning from you? The evidence that I have, can I still present them at trial? I will allow you to attempt to present relevant evidence, but okay. You're going to have to follow the rules of evidence for admissibility. Okay. Thank you, Judge. You're going to have to authenticate documents and they're going to have to be ones that are admissible.
So, if it's hearsay, meaning it's a third party statement, then you got to figure out how to get that in. If you think Okay. If it's a hearsay, try to Okay. I will try to to teach you how to do that. You have No, I will find I'll figure it out. Thank you. It out. All right. So, you believe you have the exhibits that are recited in the state's list of exhibits. There's no question in your mind that those seven items are in your possession at this time. The acknowledgement of rights form, the spreadsheets, the
written statement, your interview, photographs, videos, police reports. Okay, hold on. Is the defendant knowledge of right form spreadsheet summarize losses fraud and activity from 2022 defender sworn statement defendant interview photos video police report any exhibit listed by the defendant. This is what I had requested in a sense but then it looked like did you get the video evidence from nothing? Nobody gave me nothing. You don't have the video evidence from Mr. Frible? They didn't give it to me. I have that, your honor. I can It is quite lengthy. Um there's several videos, so I can
um today, even today, I can have it put on a USB and have um Miss Butler pick it up from our office. Yeah, Miss Butler, you can either pick it up or they can send it to you, but I'm going to put a deadline on the state to get evidence prepared before the end of Can I say something about the video? Can I say something about the video? We just need to stop talking over each other. But yes. Okay. The reason why I don't really care about the video, your honor, is because management gave me
authority to do what I did. Again, if management gives you the authority to commit a crime, and you commit that crime, then you're going to be the one held liable for the commission of that crime. Now, the judge has warned you that anything you say can be held against you during your trial. And that statement may end up being one of the many things used to gain an actual conviction against you. Regardless of whether you care about the video or not, in so far as the state has a duty to provide a complete set of
evidence to you, they are going to fulfill that duty. Okay? Right? And if they don't, they are going to face disciplinary consequences. Do you understand that? So they're going to get you that you need to pick it up their office before the close of business tomorrow. If you don't come pick it up by the close of business tomorrow, that will alleviate them from any further responsibility. You understand that? Can I ask you something? Yes. About the state. I just have a concern. This has been in my mind. The state, why is the state taking this
case as though they have for the closure of this case? Good heavens, Miss Butler. No. Um, that is certainly not the subject of anything to do with today's hearing. No, I was just asking because why is the state questioning me like they was there? Cuz I'm trying to figure out I'm going against the state versus myself, right? No, I'm asking. I'm asking why is I'm going against the state versus myself? Why is this not the United States Post Office versus me? Why is it the state versus me? Miss Biller, I certainly don't have time to
explain the question. No, you don't. Cuz I'm because in the constitution constitution section six, it said I have the right to face my accuser and in the state is not my accuser. She's not or he's not. I need to face my accuser and the accuser is him. Miss Butler, uh let's get into the motions and limiting. Um, I've got motion. Explain that to me, judge. I'm not going to, ma'am. You have to cuz it don't make any sense. So, basically, anybody can just go against the state and the state is considered as You're representing yourself
in this. Yes, I am. But I need to maybe crossexamine my accuser. And the state is not my accuser. I'm trying to figure Out why is the state versus me because I do have a right to cross-examinate them by accusing. It has to be a living, breathing individual, not a representative. I need to redirect you again. You put that search into Google. No, I wanted to know why. For some other search engine right, your honor, Miss Ber, you're talking over me again, and I really don't want to hold you in contempt today. All right. So,
that's the end of her suppression of evidence motion hearing. And as expected, it was denied by the judge. After this, they had a motions and lemonade hearing, which was completely procedural. So, we're going to jump ahead to where the judge is walking her through how the actual trial will take place, starting with explaining to her how Vardier of the jury works. Yes. And when you come in for the jury selection, the entire room is going to be filled. Okay. And you're going to have to start, the state's going to go first, but you're going to
have to stand up after the state's done with their part. And the first words out of your mouth need to be a proper voadier question. You understand that? Proper dear question. Voad. Vader. Proper. V O I R B O D I R E. And you're going to have to know how to do that. And I actually I get it. Yanna. Is there another way besides this? I'm not sure what you mean. I want you to draw up a cuz I'm on Okay, let me say it like this. I don't want to go to trial. I
don't honestly. And the reason why I don't want to go to trial is because I have so much evidence that there's no proof of loss. Miss Butler, I get that. I understand. I'm just talking. Just let me get it out. I just need to stop you, okay? Because I'm not allowed to be part of any negotiating. I know I'm not I'm not going against. But then you're not going against me, but it sounds to me like you were roping me into negotiating. No, I'm not go. No, I'm not. When you talk about what evidence the
state does or doesn't have, that's not something that I'm concerned with. That's something that you need to talk with them about in the process of trying to negotiate something with the state. Not with me in the room. And I'm not going to permit it. So, I don't need for you to talk about what evidence they have or they don't have in front of me. Okay? So, I can't talk to them. I don't know if they'll talk with you or not, but it's also not incumbent upon me to force them to talk to you. Okay? They
can do what they want. They can refuse to talk to you or they can offer you some sort of a plea. I'm not going to be involved. Okay? That's the only other way I know to resolve a case like this. Okay? Right? is that you can go to trial or you can um do a guilty plea or work out some other resolution. The other possibility is you could wave jury, right? But that's something you're going to want to have some time to think about. It's not something I would accept today. That would be the bench
trial without then you'd be trying it just to me, right? And then I still can't be involved in negotiations. Yeah. But then I'd be the sole decider of the case and the evidence. Can I also say this? Okay. I know that if you can produce the charges, the amounts, the fees, and everything. Can you do that as well? Like in the order cuz I know what you mean. Um I'm trying to figure it out. I know the charges is against my allegiance. I know it says, you know, I'm I'm on the behalf of that. So
what I'm trying or what? Allegiance. You know what that allegiance is? No. You never heard of allegiance? Allegious? It's a creature at law. That's what that is. That's what that is. Maybe the judge would know what you're actually talking about if you cared enough to pronounce it correctly. It's not illegious. It's inlegis, which is Latin for a being of law. In actual law, an inslegis is simply an artificial person like a corporation. That's why a company like Walmart can sign a contract or why you can sue Amazon if one of their delivery vans hits your
travel mobile without treating corporations as legal persons. Our entire legal and economic system couldn't function. But in sovereign citizen fantasy land, they think that their birth certificate secretly created a corporate Enslegis and that the court is trying to put their paperwork on trial instead of them. So no, the Enlegis isn't on trial today. The living flesh and blood idiot sitting at the defendant's table is that have nothing to do with this whatsoever. I'm going to stop you. Okay, it is because what I will do, I'm stopping you. Please don't talk about whatever this is. It
has nothing to do with this case or this proceeding. What I will do is tell you that if you're going to wave jury, I need to have that decision. I mean, we're right on the cusp of summoning jurors. Do I have another trial set that day? This is unfair, your honor. It's that's the reason why I want to go because this is an unfair trial or I think we'll be okay. I'll give you until again a week from today. If you're going to wave jury, you need to make that determination before July 30th. This is
it's just unfair. I'm not sure what is unfair to you. This is unfair. You me tell you why it's unfair? Yes. Because I've been drugged. I've been You guys got evidence of me being drugged. And then y'all using that towards me, ma'am. No one drugged you. Yes. Yes. No one's using any went to jail. I've been in a mental institution and they told me I couldn't leave the miss institution unless I take medication. Man, there was a question. I've been so validated. Judge, I'm tired. I wanted to dismiss this. All I've been doing is suffering,
suffering, suffering, and then I I know I have a right to a speedy trial. I had a a public defender. He didn't help me. And now I presented all kind of evidence. He didn't even try to assist me, authenticate or anything like you were telling me in advance. A whole year of my life just been wasted. Wasted all kind of violations like you saying that the United States Post Office or the OIG are victims. where you the court um created a victim by drugging me and then use a judge that is actually about to retire
to even carry out an order and put it under fraudulent saying that I'm in a higher level level one through five like I'm a danger to myself and danger to others and drug me just in order to submit me. The judge um judge Jeffrey Climber stated to the prosecutor that this is not a mental case. Do not send her to no mental institution. But you guys did. I am messed up. I messed up in the head regarding to what you how can I this is an unfair trial. And then I'm up here talking about my
statement and they not oh we don't know what you're talking about. We don't know what you're talking Yeah. Submit it in. It don't even even talk about the refunds. It don't talk about theft. It don't talk about nothing. It's It's just have a lot of statements, unorganized ths and I want to go ahead and submit. I'll just submit it. That's unfair. Your honor, I've been through a lot. Miss Bowler, are you asking me to once again consider whether your this case, your honor, will deny the do not have evidence of loss. I have proof of
that. They did not do their job. It's a onesided contract, onesided interview because according I've been working for the post office for 17 years, your honor, things are going off the rails pretty significantly. I need to stop you. A verified complaint because if you read the probable cause butler, there's so much going on in there. Miss Butler, you need to stop talking. Okay, it's unfair. A few minutes ago, you made a suggestion that maybe you're not competent to withstand trial. It's unfair. I could see the unfairness. Are you suggesting I should revisit the question of
your competence? I'm witnessing this that it's unfair. When a judge recuse himself, it automatically will be an unfair trial cuz you didn't never had it from the beginning. I need I need your response to my question. Are you asking me to reconsider your competency? It's not reconsider my competency. It's just that I am stressed and I've been going on for three whole years. So, you've said you're messed up in the head. No, you think you need me to reconsider competence. I'm messed up in the head. I messed up how this system is so messed up
until you try to voice your opinion, trying to crump, try to conduct good business with the courts and you try to be reign in Honor. That's what I've been doing from the very beginning. Remain in honor. And I'm like, okay, I don't know how to file the documents because this is my first so-called alleged criminal case. And I'm up here trying to cooperate with the judge, but I get drugged. I already went to jail. I already went to jail already. And then I get a force plea. Take the plea. Take the plea. I said, I
would take the plea if you can show me financial evidence of loss. If you were to look at the documents, sir, it doesn't have a financial evidence of loss, but I mean, you got to have proof. They said, have you ever heard the saying, it doesn't matter how much you know, is what you can prove in court. And I've been trying to prove what I have here in court, that there's no evidence of loss. That is it. No evidence of theft, no evidence of misconduct. I'm trying to explain this to you. Miss Buller, I need
to cut you off. Okay, I'm I'm done. Finally. I didn't think she'd ever shut up. All right, so that's the end of today's video. Like I said, her actual jury trial is scheduled for today and could potentially go on for 2 days. So, if it's live stream, I will most certainly have it for you on Monday. If not, I'll have another video ready for you on Monday, and I'll look up the register of actions to keep you informed On how the trial turned out and what kind of punishment she receives if she's found guilty. So,
if you like the video, hit the like button. If you disliked it, hit the dislike. But don't forget to leave a comment below and subscribe with notifications on so you don't miss any of my content. I'm Team Skeptic and I'm out. Here [music] we
