Defense Case - Part 2 | CA. v. MENENDEZ

Stand over behind the court reporter come on in please right in through the but the truth to help door god could you tell us your full name diane marie vandermolen v as in victor a-n-d-e-r m-o-l-e-n are you a little nervous where you fit on this and you see your name and where are you hiring the fourth child of joan and arnold down here is kathy the witness who just testified your sister yes and is alan anderson your cousin yes and how old are you i am 34 years old so does that make you nine years

older than lyle and 12 years older than eric yes yes yes did you spend various periods of time with kitty and jose menendez yes i did and were they your aunt and uncle yes [Applause] When was the first time that you stayed with them 1976 for the summer for the summer and did one was the second time 1978 and that was also for the summer for a little bit longer that time okay and the next time 1979 briefly briefly is we uh my friend karen and i came up first briefly is how long oh about

two weeks and did you spend time with them again yes and when was that i lived with them from the beginning of june 1982 until july 1983 when you were first invited to stay with them in 1976 how old were you then i was 16 when i arrived and i turned 17 while i was with them we're going to have further hearings i was 16 when i arrived why don't you just move a little closer to the microphone just move yourself in a little closer if you can knowing your physical control yeah mr vanderbilt yeah

very very thank you when you were first invited to stay with them were you sent there or is this something you wanted to do it was something that i wanted to do and why did you want to go there for a whole summer I had looked forward to it for a few years and it was um i had been told a lot about kitty and jose and lyle and eric and their family being very special to our family and had met them a few years prior and had been told that jose had said that it

would be okay for us to come out and visit and look very much forward to doing so and was that exciting for you oh very yes yeah would you say that they were special to your family how do you mean sustain when you first went to stay with them were you treated well in 1976 yes and did that change over the period of time that you went to visit them very much so and did did jose change during that period of time or did he stay the same pretty much um the same only more so

more more what um intense driven arrogant okay and what about kitty did she stay the same or did she change she changed very much and how did she change um in 1976 she became Like a mentor to me during that time period i felt special with her during that time by 1982-83 visit i i became it got to the point where i was afraid to come upstairs from my bedroom because i wasn't sure what was going to happen because it seemed like i could do nothing right and if you did something wrong what would kitty

do um she would uh she would fly into rages immense rages how would she look when she flew into these rages her arms would stand up if you can yeah of course she was not pregnant um her arms would be out to here of course again up raised your honor for the record and her teeth would be like this and she would be coming at you like that she would be coming at you how close would she get um she would approach me at times i'm sorry don't apologize um is it frightening to you today

to think about that it was yeah it was and i recall that when i talk about it okay how close would she come to you when she did this she could get into my face and she sometimes it would start from A brief distance away but she could she would move towards me as her anger was flying towards me also is this something that happened once or twice or is this something that happened more often oh it happened more than once or twice three times it was quite regular and what's quite regulating is that once

a month maybe a couple times a week and what types of things would trigger these rages um gosh if i hadn't if i hadn't performed up to her expectations or if i'd come home late and when you say performed up to her expectations what do you mean [Music] sustain when she would get angry at you would she just talk about what it is that you did wrong or would she talk about you as a person is objection irrelevant sustain what kinds of was would these fits or rages be in front of the boys sometimes and

what types of things would she say to you she would attack me as a person And let me know know uncertain terms that if that she was very capable of marching downstairs and throwing tossing my thing belongings out on the street and not caring that i was related to her and she would would she make you feel anything about yourself in terms of your own personal characteristics oh yeah um myself sustained would she say anything about your personal characteristics you have to lay a better foundation would she in these rages which took place in front

of the boys would she say anything about you personally she attacked my character as a per human being i mean during your first visit in 1976 you took a trip to new york and the trip to washington dc is that correct yes the family was that enjoyable is that yes yes i'm sorry over the period of time that you were there you've said jose became more intense and kitty changed dramatically can you tell me what what kinds of changes you saw in kitty um both when i was there in 76 it seemed that there was

still Kitty was able to still enjoy herself and be herself both inside the home and outside the home i also saw similar characteristics with jose by 1982 and 83 visit there was a complete change in who they were inside the home when no one was around and who they would be to others outside the home who would they be inside the home judging irrelevant sustain can you describe their personality can you describe kitties personality characteristics inside the home in on the last visit things you observed all right you're asking her to describe the demeanor of

uh mrs menendez in the presence of the defendants yes your honor i am right do you understand the question yes could you describe it kitty it was kitty was quite frustrated and seemed to be immensely trying to keep up with what she considered to be her job which was organizing the boy's schedules and keeping up with what was given to her from jose to do each day and there wasn't in 76 there were moments when we could talk and and and relax and there wasn't any of that by 82-83 um just always frustrated and unhappy

Were the rages more frequently in 82 and 83 than they were in 76 all the way immensely was kitty affectionate with the boys more so with eric than with lyle okay what would you see her do with eric let me start okay was there a change in how she reacted toward eric between 76 and 82 or was it the same ah she was there she became more of his tutor was she affectionate with him to the same degree no no what did you see with regard to her affection toward eric in the earlier visits for

example there was one time when eric i oh i'm sorry i tried to hug eric one time and she told me that i wasn't supposed to hug him that he needed to grow up that he was being too much of a baby which visit was this 82. so he would have been 11 years old yes did you see her hug the kids not that time not not an 82-83 visit did she hug them did she hug eric earlier when yes she did when putting them to bed and what about lyle did you see her hug

lyle not during the 8283 visit there was more animosity between the two would you see her hug him On the earlier visits just when putting him to bed occasionally and did she speak to them gently using pet names or no there weren't there were no pet names was she caring of them in terms of if they got injured no they they were supposed to be tough were they allowed to cry crying was considered a weakness was that was that even for you i'd say in general showing emotion in that household was considered a great weakness

that you didn't want to display and what would happen if the boys would cry gosh they'd either be sent to their room or left alone was there a difference between what the family did in private and i'm talking particularly about the later visits a difference between the way they would behave in private and the way they would behave in public are you referring to kitty and jose yes there was a terrific difference between private and public and what was the difference let's do kitty first what was the difference in kitty's public versus her private performance

let's have the question read back and what was the please as to philly first what was the difference in public versus her private performance Be a little more specific when you're talking about performance please what was kitty's behavior like in the home versus in public at home she was very harried when no one was around and generally um unhappy and just never could quite keep up and and frustrated all the time in public she would put on a facade a personhood of who she believes she should appear to be as these objection sustained as to

the entire answer as a conclusion and the entire answer is stricken how would she you sit at home she'd appear frustrated and harried etc would she demonstrate her temper at home yes and when she went out in public did she appear harried and frustrated and demonstrate her temper no and what was jose like in the home versus in public well first what was his behavior like at home he was in non-questionable control of the household and he was uh he had he he would laugh in a t arrogantly teasing way but he'd be humiliating and

belittling to the point of being cruel at times and what about in public did he demonstrate any of those behaviors in public no were you afraid of making mistakes in That home direction what would be the consequences of making a mistake in that home objection sustained if you made a mistake how would kitty treat you all right you have to lay a better foundation as to the presence of the defendants and nature of the conduct were there times when you were living in the home particularly directed at the later visits where you would make a

mistake and kitty would react to that in front of the boys yes and can you tell me what would happen objection sustain in the 1982-83 visit did this ever happen oh yes did it happen frequently yes and what would kitty do in front of the boys during the 1982-83 visit if you made a mistake if if it wasn't too bad it would be throwing things around and and and as she was yelling at me just slamming things down while talking to me yelling at me about what it was and how could i do this and

and how stupid it was and if it was something really bad it would be the rage that i have already described to you beyond control how old were you in 1982 i was 23. was that rage still frightening to you oh yes very yeah i lived in fear of it to be honest with You would there be times during the last visit where jose would go to eric's room before dinner yes and meet with him privately yes and after those meetings what would eric be like when he came out jose would state that eric was

not feeling well and that he was not able to eat his dinner at that time and that he would eat later and did you see times where lyle and jose would have talks yes where would these talks take place frequently downstairs this is during 82 correct frequently downstairs in the basement with lyle on a stool and jose standing over him how close would jose stand to him he would be right here up against him indicating approximately a foot away generally yes and could you tell what it was they were were these discipline sessions or were

they just talking about things it was understood that when jose was speaking to lyle or either the boys that that they were to be left alone and you didn't intrude how long would these talks in the basement go on An hour two hours and is this something that happened just once while you were there no it was frequently and what is free and it was serious um it could be one once a week okay and this is that's in the 8283 visit you're talking about yes did talks like this take place on earlier visits yes

but not for quite as long and starting in say 1976 when lyles ate are these similar types of talks taking place yes and how long would they last at that age but they he said they were shorter yeah that they could be shorter in length up to about an hour but they wouldn't probably go to two hours at that point and at some point between 76 and 82 they went to two hours yes and would he have talks with him in other locations dinner table living oh i would always at the dinner table and what

was it like at the dinner table different things during the 1982-83 visit what was it like at the dinner table an intellectual drill in a rapid quiz like fashion was this every night is if jose were home yes and who would be being drilled generally lyle eric would try to answer but since lyle's three years older yeah eric had a hard time keeping up And what happened if you didn't know the answer you your intelligence was attacked now did these dinner table conversations take place on earlier visits yes and you said you were there in

76 78 and 80 did they take place on all three of those visits yes what would happen if the boys cried won't be more specific was there some objective some purpose in keeping the boys from crying some goal sustain did they ever indicate verbally either kitty or jose why it is you weren't supposed to cry crying as a weakness and they weren't supposed to be weak and weaknesses are not allowed do you drive with kitty ever very often and how was he driving we drove through the entire city of pennsylvania at 95 miles an hour

with the boys in the car that was one incident was that that was that was by that time that was already that was only 1976 and that was our i had already accustomed myself to her style of driving at that time and that was and yes that was to answer your question it was the way she usually drove yes was it frightening to drive with her It could be at times yes did it appear that either of the boys cared what their dad thought about him they both cared very very much and how could you

tell that they were always seeking his approval and when lyle would be having these talks with his dad would they what would he look like physically his shoulders would he would be in this type of a position with his head down and being very serious and looking sad shoulders hunched forward yes and head down yes hands and lap yes was jose home most weekends jose was or did it it varied because uh and it varied with the visits depending because his positions had changed was he home most weekends in 76 um actually he was he

was gone frequently during 76. and what about 78 80 and 82 he was home on more weekends during those visits and was there a routine pattern over this entire period of time in terms of how weekend days would be spent end of jose oh okay yes very much so and what was the routine if jose were home he When he arrived he would immediately take the boys out while they were involved in tennis um this was more later visits than the earlier visits and then they would drill immediately when he got home he would change

and they'd be on the court and um but you're only asking me during the week right that was the week let's do the weekend now say saturdays what would saturdays be like what would they what would the pattern be sustained 19 you said it was most common in the later visits 80 and 82. that he would be home yes okay and so during those two visits was the pattern on saturday the same yes and was the pattern on saturday during the other visits the same it's just that he wasn't home as much correct okay so

what was the pattern they would get up first thing in the morning and they'd be on the court they'd be drooling and they would take a break after a couple of hours and get uh either some liquid and and then and after a couple hours they'd have some something to eat and then they'd be back on the court okay so they would they would be drilled for a couple of hours minimum yeah two to three hours each with each set what do you mean with each set with each boy between breaks okay and Between the

first and the second set of drilling between the first two hours and the second two hours they'd take a break is that right yes and how long a break would they take they'd storm into the house and storm right back out is how i remember it 10 minutes half hour about 10 minutes maybe and so then they would have the second two hour session yes yes i'm sorry and then would that be the end of the tennis or no they they could easily go all day long into the evening and this was taking place even

in 1976 [Music] i don't recall in 76 as much and and they were still in swimming also at that time and after they spent all this time on the tennis court what would they do would this be late afternoon early evening by the time they came in yes okay and what would they do when they came in they would come in and i'm not sure what point they'd grabbed something to eat then they would head upstairs for showers would they take showers individually or together together and after and was this true on all of the

visits including the 82 to 83 visit including 8283 visit yes And after they all showered together what would they do next i would see them come out all three of them and they're each of them in their robes and they the three of them would go into the den area where they would sit which was adjoining the master bedroom and the three of them would sit on the floor with jose teaching them generally about history specifically roman history and telling them of the importance to know history and and why and and [Music] other things related

to history how long would these talks go on for an hour or two generally until it was time for them to go to bed the boys looked like they were having a good time they look like they were intent on learning what their father was trying to teach them and i've just marked four photographs 164 5 showing you what i've marked as 160 for you recognize that photograph yes and who's in that photograph uh that this is kathy in the corner and your sister kathy is my sister this is myself i know this child i

can't think of him Okay so there's an unidentified child who's on my lap uh and this is lyle and eric and so if kathy's there is this is your birthday i think so yeah what month is your birthday my birthday is my birthday is july 2nd so if kathy's there is this the 76th visit yes showing you what i've now marked as 165. do you recognize that picture yes yes and who's in that that's myself and lyle and eric and is this the same occasion yes showing you what i've marked as 166 and ask if

you recognize that photograph that's kitty and myself you can hold it that's kitty and myself and when was that it looks like the 76th visit also and while you were living there on any of the visits did they have a ferret as a pet there was yes they i believe they did throughout the visits chippers one two and three that was the ferrets names chippers one two and three yes showing you what i've marked is 167. that's a ferret that's a fair that's one of the chippers if this was 676 it would be tipper one

is the ferret kept in the house or are these pets that you put out in the backyard or what the ferret was kept inside the house and was the ferret train to go to the bathroom in a Litter box or something like that no none of the ferrets were they they went the bathroom wherever they ended up being is that anywhere in the house anywhere in the house yes did the boys behave differently when they were just with you as opposed to when they were with their parents yes they did how did they behave when

they were just with you it seems that it was the only time that i saw them actually behave as children as boys they were much less competitive when it was just the three of us they were nice to each other nicer we relaxed we talked we talked about things that weren't talked about when we weren't by ourselves such as hopes and and desires and dreams that they had themselves these were things that they couldn't talk about or didn't talk about with their family their own hopes and dreams sustained were these were they would they talk

about their hopes and dreams in front of their parents generally speaking their roles were being given to them when they would be around their parents who would pick the topic of conversation jose were you already indicated that the boys were not encouraged to show emotions is that Correct correct was that a goal to be achieved not be able to show your emotions yes did the family take pictures yes who took pictures when i was there i took a lot of them or handed my camera to someone um otherwise um i think it was yes one

of them if you remember i don't recall they have a polaroid camera yes did they have a movie camera yes and who would use the movie camera jose and what types of things would he film he filmed the boys doing what i recall them uh just doing sports uh i can't remember what else right now when jose wasn't home where would the boys sleep in in which was it start in 76. generally speaking in 76 i remember that putting them to sleep in their beds sometimes they slept with kitty and through your later visits did

they continue to sometimes sleep with kitty yes they did and they'd argue over whose turn it was and did this continue into the last visit in 1982-1983 yes it did and at that time the boys would have been 14 and 11. Yes then they turned 12 and 15. did you observe anything unusual that happened when lyle would go to take a bath just yes or no yes and when when was this during the 82-83 visit so again we're where he's 14 yes what would happen when he would go take a bath after he would be

in this the bath room uh the kitty would tell me that she had to go help him wash his hair would she go into the bathroom yes and how long would she be in there until they both they would she would help him finish up his bath and they'd come out five minutes 10 minutes it could about 15 minutes did you observe kitty helping the boys with their homework yes and would have would this have been in the 1982 83 visit yes and how is it that she would help the boys with their homework she

would sometimes sit and do it with them sometimes she would do it while they were out practicing their tennis so she would do their homework for them sometimes yes during the times when she would work with them what were those episodes like sometimes she would She would get frustrated with them if they asked for help and she'd end up taking over the homework yourself and would she ever say anything to them about she would yeah she'd ask them how they could be such a dummy lyle and eric use their intelligence she would yell that at

them quite frequently and then if they still didn't get it that's when she started calling them dummy um did they have any friends come over and visit during any of the visits you were there were other neighborhood children in the house i didn't see any neighborhood children now and was there a particular cousin who was close to eric who would come visit yes andy and other than andy's visits did you see any other friends or any other relatives stay in the house no did eric and andy appear to be close yes was privacy something that

was valued in this house sustained as to the form of the question did you see any instances in which there was a disrespect for privacy shown yes did you ever see a situation in which kitty went into lyle's room and read his letters yes i did and i was with her when she did that objection irrelevant overall We have a foundation as to time place 8283 visit during the 8283 visit did lyle get a girlfriend no i asked about that one time and kitty said that there would be time for the boys to for lyle

specifically to be concerned about that some other time all right objection is sustained the answer is stricken after the word no did lyle have stuffed animals many yes when you say many are you talking about two or three or no he had at least a dozen or more and does this include the 8283 visit when he's 14 yes that's specifically what i'm remembering would you see him playing with his animals yes he animated his animals specifically especially cookie monster and what type of playing would go on having them sing and dance no they bombed each

other in in groups bombed each other and um cookie monster would threaten i is more towards eric yeah was it all right we'll we'll take a recess when the jurors wants a break so we'll take a recess and we'll resume at a quarter to the hour don't discuss this case with anyone or form any final opinions about it and we'll resume in a quarter well number one the people did not specifically object to the testimony regarding the Swimming or the nature of that activity on grounds of relevancy and now the defense is offering this film

i haven't seen it and the people have not seen the entirety of it well she just told me she didn't see at all council i heard her say that she didn't see it all and that's all i'm saying she hasn't seen the entirety of it um the objection is on the grounds of relevancy is that correct do you want to articulate it further as to yeah of the child swimming back and forth and driving and it seems to be irrelevant or unnecessary to show this particular movie to bulgaria that's awesome all right your objection is

it's cumulative or all right i'll i'll have to see it and i'll do it at a more appropriate time it's four o'clock i want to continue with the examination of this witness how much more do you have okay and um i don't know how you proposed if this was to be played how you propose to play it we're not going to darken the courtroom for the purpose of playing it no we're not well we're not darkening this courtroom in a criminal case if you wanted to put this on videotape you could have done that and

we could have had a vcr with this as well i don't know why we need a projector it's one of those devices that people don't see very often anymore i know it's a very old movie but um well i'll see the at the appropriate time let's remove the equipment so it doesn't interfere with the rest of the testimony And then i'll view it at the appropriate time yes we can do that right now all right miss lansing thank you miss vanden mullen was there an incident in 1976 in which lyle menendez asked you to help

him yes there was where did this take place in my bedroom downstairs in the basement in wednesday i'm sorry in muncie what time of day was it it was night time and what happened we had all been down lyle and eric and i had been downstairs and the boys had been called up to get ready for bed i stayed and went into my bedroom and a while later lyle came down and he was asking if he could uh i thought he was there to say goodnight and he started asking me if he could sleep down

there because cathy had already gone and there was two single beds okay and what did you tell them i initially i uh it pretty much just brushed him off because i wasn't taking him seriously and what happened then he proceeded to indicate to me by touching himself down and and saying that his dad and him Had been touching each other down there and what did he ask you to do he wanted to sleep down there and what did you do i went and got kitty and brought her downstairs and told her what was going on

how did lyle seem at this time was this a joke no he was superior he was serious what happened when kitty came down she didn't believe me and she yes i told her what i believed to be going on what lyle had was indicating to me and she immediately i don't remember that she said anything to me just that i knew that she did not believe me and she took lyle and and brought him back upstairs when you say she took him did she she actually took him by the arm and brought him back upstairs

with her and did you ever discuss the incident with lyle anymore no it wasn't ever discussed after that thank you that's our awful program all right people wish to examine yes um do you remember giving a statement about this incident on january the 15th of 1992 yes and who did you give the statement to about this to leslie and abramson and to joe lansing and at the time that you gave the statement did you indicate to them that lyle had gestured to himself i believe i motioned uh about the touching i'm not sure what you're

meaning by that though well um in the report it indicates that all she In you knows is that he made some comment about jose and touching and the next part of the report is that you went and got kitty okay i discussed that it was regarding touching and at the same time that i discussed that i indicated so by doing that in their presence down basically right here since i'm not immunity yes all right and you told the defense attorney's dad in january i verbalized touching and i motioned by doing so with my hand but

i and i don't know what was written so and you have a clear recollection today of mild mood now yes and do you remember telling the defense attorneys that you were never really sure what it was about that's what i convinced myself of afterwards that i must have been mistaken because of the way that it was handled that he i don't remember exact words i just remembered that it was regarding he and jose touching each other and it was down there all you said was a comment about jose and touching indicating down there right what

page is that now what page i'm sorry it's page four it's not numbered okay what The last paragraph know i read it i just can't find at this point uh the sentence that i'm referring to specifically starts all she knows is that he made some comment about moving and touching all she knows i perhaps is is referring to the fact that i don't remember exact words that it had been it was not it was something that i didn't get the impression that it just happened but that it was happening but he didn't verbalize anything more

than he wanted to stay with you right because of this because he was afraid what did he say he was afraid no that's my impression all right so he asked to sleep with you and he said no and then in response to that he indicated to you that i i was pretty much ignoring him i was not taking him seriously until he became serious all right and then you didn't ever when's the first time you ever told anyone about this this is impeachment if it's valid well the only problem is normally you would be correct

but the only problem is that this is an interview conducted by the two defense lawyers there's no third party witness available to deal with the interview you conducted so i'm giving the prosecution latitude in this regard there was nobody present for dr ozil's interviews and he was free well i don't know if that's quite Analogous i kind of think it isn't uh council and i'm sure your smiling remark indicates that you agree with me so that's why i'm permitting the the prosecution to go into this you conducted an interview without any third party witness present

and now you're seeking to introduce the testimony relating to this and it's very difficult for the prosecution to deal with that since they'd have to call you as witnesses that's why i'm permitting the prosecution to do this go ahead who's the first person who ever told about this joe lansing 1976 and 1992 you didn't tell anyone else no that's correct all right anything else let's get the jury panels in we have about 10 minutes yep to go today and all our jurors are back now you may resume with the examination of the witness yes it

was night lyle and eric and i had been downstairs i'm sorry lyle eric and i had been downstairs playing ping pong and the two boys were called upstairs to get ready for bed who called them upstairs jose and what happened next i stayed and went into my bedroom which was downstairs is that in the basement yes And a while later lyle came down i believed he was there to tell me good night okay you say a while later how much longer what's in the hour and he came down and he came downstairs and he uh

he started asking if he could spend the night in the other bed we had two twin beds and kathy had left by then so there was an empty bed right okay so he's asking if he can spend the night in the bed and what do you i did not i pretty much ignored him and brushed him off at first i thought he was just goofing around he's an eight-year-old kid and you didn't take it seriously right okay and what happened after that he became more serious and indicated to me that he was afraid of not

sleeping downstairs why because his they had been he and his dad had been touching each other and he indicated that it was in his genital area and so why did he want to sleep downstairs did he say anything as to why i don't recall him all right your next question then when he said this did he seem like he was kidding around or did he know he was serious and what did you do i went and got kitty and brought her downstairs and told her what was going on you took it seriously enough to go

get kitty then yes overall Yes i did and did you tell kitty what lyle had told you yes i told her what he had indicated to me what he was telling me what he was showing me how did she look did she look shocked or is she any emotion she showed that she did not believe me what did she do kind of in a dis she there's a look that she got when she didn't believe me and that's just it was obvious to me that she did not believe me and she went and got lyle

and took him back upstairs you know when you said he pointed did he point somewhere while he was just could you he touched him i know he touched himself down here in the genital area yes now when you said that to kitty did she say anything to you i would ask any questions no she immediately did not believe me i don't recall that she said anything to me did she ask lyle any questions like has this been happening no no no she just took him upstairs so it was dismissed how did she take him upstairs

she took him by the arm she pull him out of there leading him out yes forcefully or gently or more forcefully was he taken out of there quickly yes how did he look bewildered did you talk to anybody about it after That no why not because it was never discussed after that and i convinced myself that i was in the wrong that i was wrong not sure why for having told kitty that you were wrong yeah all right the statement attributed to lyle menendez is not being received ladies and gentlemen for the truth of whatever

he said just the fact that he said it to the witness all right any further questioning okay you okay during any of the visits did you observe kitty drinking yes i did and which of the visits if you can remember all of them and what would her pattern be about drinking would you drink all day long or when would she drink generally from the afternoon um on more so in the last visit than in the prior visit she had specific liqueurs that i strongly remember in the 76th visit grand marnier the cor galliano and cuarenta

y cinco which was from the caribbean area and would she just have a small glass and sip it after dinner she had it with her coffee and she poured she would pour probably about this much into her coffee approximately two inches your honor appears more like an inch an inch and a half [Music] and uh when she finished her coffee sometimes she would just she would pour the liqueur in and sip on that by itself so she would pour some liquor into the coffee cup yeah after that yes and she was drinking it would that

be the same amount or more i just recall watching her pour it into the coffee mug after she'd already been drinking it and this would start in the afternoon yes and did this happen on a regular basis yes would she sometimes have more than just the one cup of coffee and then the second yes how many would you see her have two or three and was this an issue in the family did jose drink with her um in in 76 it wasn't in 82-83 she was drinking more and she was starting to hide it from

jose and what would jose do to check on whether she was drinking assistant would jose say anything to her about her drinking he was teasing her unless it was said in front of the defendant's objection sustained was it said were there any discussions in front of lyle and eric about her drinking yes and they were brought into them he would tease her about it and tease her in terms of its gentle teasing it's a family joke it's tolerated or he said whatever he said and he was always laughing and but it was generally A belittling

type thing that he was saying but he was always laughing it was just his way when you would he laughed when he was saying serious things yes and was there anything about his laughter that made it seem less serious it was it was sometimes difficult to know whether he was serious or not because he of his laugh and i can't imitate it but how many times did you hear him talk to kitty about her drinking in front of the boys several times throughout that the last visit 8283 did you find that in your first visit

kitty seemed to be pleased with you pleased with who you are what you did it's foundational well let's get to the did there come a period of time when kitty became critical of you what time frame you talking about that's what i need to ask right again it has to be something that occurred in front of the defendants was did there come a time when kitty was critical of you in front of lyle and eric 8283 very much so and what would the criticism be directed at i couldn't do enough like i i just seemed

like i did what no matter what it was about it i wasn't it wasn't enough you talked about the difference between How kitty and jose behaved in private versus how they behaved in public is that right yes and did you ever go to any family functions during any of your visits with the menendez family yes and did you go more than once yes a number of times yes and would there be meetings or talks to you before those visits in terms of how you were to behave yes in the presence of the boys and would

the boys get these same talks yes it was it was basically a family discussion at the table as to what was allowed to be discussed with others particularly family relative members okay and and what things were there things that could not be discussed you were not to disclose their school performance uh as especially eric's at the time um was eric having trouble in school yes and that wasn't supposed to be known and also if they hadn't done well in a particular um event uh it just it was it wasn't supposed to be discussed it was

because of the competition because of the competition objection sustained the last part of the answer is stricken and how much longer do you think you have this witness i'll probably have another 20 minutes okay we'll take a recess and resume tomorrow at nine o'clock ladies and gentlemen don't discuss this case with anyone don't form any final opinions about it and we'll resume tomorrow at Nine o'clock witnesses order to return and would you say your name again for us diane marie vandermorn all right i'll remind you you're still under oath you may continue your direct examination

thank you good morning good morning we were talking yesterday today about the incident in which lyle came down to your room and told you about what was happening with him and his father is that correct yes and was that in 1976 yes it was you're on i have two exhibits additional exhibits i'd like to mark the next exhibit number is 168. marking 168 which is a class picture for cherry lane school 1976 1977 and an individual photograph of lao menendez which on marcus 169. scandal and showing you these two photographs do you recognize who that

person is yes it's like yes it's lyle and uh does this appear to be the age that he was at the time that he made the complaint to you that you told us about yes pretty much after that after that incident when is the next time you ever talked about it january of 1992. and who did you talk about to yourself and where was this In denver is that where you live yes when the boys were growing up were they given any lessons regarding the importance of of their their family heritage yes they both were

give by both kitty and jose jose used to talk about the special heritage that they were descended from and their need to carry on that heritage and to live up to it and also kitty used to talk about the special family that we came from and the importance of it and was there any emphasis on particular future plans you should contribute to humanity or be an artist or what was the goal that was given for these boys in terms of what they should do with their life above and beyond anyone else that's as close as

i can it's just it was okay and and were things like money and houses and cars and friends important that was a given what do you mean that was a given uh that that was what was going to be their future was all of that the status of the highest status the highest the biggest the most and were these values that you saw reflected in the parents in front of them with everything they were doing yes And were they given instructions regarding choosing friends and what kind of people were the right people to have as

friends yes i remember specifically at uh the the dinner table jose and kitty telling the boys how sometimes they may not like it if they chose who they could spend time with or not or who their school mates could be friend their they could be friends with at school but that they had to understand how important it was that these friends would they would become known by them and they would their life would be influenced by them and how important it was that they direct themselves even from a very young age to be with the

right people and did kitty jose and jose seem to incorporate that in their own lifestyle as well sustain did kitty and jose ever talk about their own selection of friends in front of the boys that is the parents friends sustained your sister testified yesterday that she had stayed with the menendez family for part of the summer when you were there in 1976 and you are one of five children is that correct yes and did any of your other brothers or sisters stay at the menendez house no and your cousin alan brian allen but uses allen

testified before you does he live in the same state as you no how long had it been since you had seen him before you saw him here this week it's Been years in these years two years or five years old i saw him in princeton at the funeral and prior to that it had been uh when my son was born in 1984. do you talk to him regularly on the phone no we do not and do you see your sister on a regular basis no i do not you had told us yesterday about a friend

of eric's named andy yes is that correct and also a cousin okay and whose child is he martes okay now did andy stay for months at a time as you did or would he just come and visit or do you there was one time when he came for a couple like a couple of weeks i think it was but generally his visits were overnight visits once they moved into the area do you remember an incident in 1983 in which eric ran away yes the beginning of the summer in 1983. and was there anything unusual about

what happened um we there was because he'd been gone for quite some time and okay um Does that look familiar to you yes it does and what is that that is a picture of lyle and eric in the their canoe on the lake that they lived on okay now was this a lake that was near their house yes their property boarded on the lake and you indicated that uh eric ran away and there was a pant yes and did you have anything to do with it uh they ins in looking for him oh i'm sorry

kitty and jose discovered that the canoe was missing okay and what happened jose took off in search of eric and found him there's they lived on the edge of the lake and there was a creek that took off from there that fed into it and um jose was gone for a while and about it was getting it was about dark when they got back and jose was furious and eric was appeared to be crying it was it was at the state of crying if not crying still and they were both soaking wet and were you

ever told anything about what had happened you can ask that yes or no were you ever was it ever explained to you what had happened only where he had found him but not why he ran away or no or what had happened no okay you talked yesterday a little bit about uh lyle and his stuffed animals yes and uh Did you see him interacting with the stuffed animals on all of your visits or did it just happen during one of them oops sorry on all of them okay so in your last visit when he was

14 he was still involved with the stuffed animals yes and you said he would threaten eric with cookie monster now did he assault him with no he was there it was a playful joking teasing type of interaction between the two of them and if eric got mad at lyle would he take it out on the animals ever yes what would he do he one time threw cookie monster out the window and was that very upsetting to love yes it was when you were staying with them did you ever have any discussions with kitty about what

your future was supposed to be she pretty much informed me what my future was going to be and was this done in front of the boys yes and what was your future going to be sustained was she talking about your educational future your career future relevance objection sustain since you were living with the family were some of the expectations that the boys experienced passed along to you yes irrelevant Sustain was there ever an occasion in which kitty in front of the boys lied about your academics did kitty ever tell people in front of this thing

may we approach your honor yes you may thank you you've told us about observing situations in which kitty appeared to be dominated by jose and intimidated by him is that correct yes now was that how she behaved with other people in front of the boys no and and how would she how would she behave with other people other than her husband she always gave the appearance of being in control and being being the authority i'm sorry being the authority with the boys with other people one more time being the authority with the boys with other

people thank you did she seem to have a strong personality yes can you be more specific as to uh what you're referring to objections to stay in the answer did she appear to have her own views and to express them without any reservation what time or in what inter-reaction or relationship any of your visits did you observe her in the presence of the boys express Strong opinions have strong views and vague as to whether or not no this is out of his presence your honor okay that's what i was asking yes out of his presence

can we ask you the question yes please did you observe in any of your visits and i will ask you which visits later kitty expressing strong views being a dominant kind of person when jose wasn't there yes now was that an unusual occurrence or was that what happened all the time that was how she was when uh without him in his her presence and was this during just one particular visit or was it a pattern it was a pattern so it happened during all of the visits yes did she did she seem happy about having

children no did she talk to you about the damage children could do to a marriage yes she did sustain the answer struggle did she talk to you in front of the boys about the damage children can do to a marriage she told me that children drive a wedge between their man and his wife her husband and wife was that in front of the dance was that set in front of the defendants both did it happen on more than one occasion yes when jose would have did he ever have a wait what's that i didn't hear

that last response at all i didn't hear the Question okay let's have it read back okay question did she talk to you in front of the boys about the damage children can do to a marriage answer yes she told me that children drive a wedge between a man and his wife or a husband and wife report was that in front of the defendants answer both thank you did you ever have an occasion to have a conversation with jose one-on-one the way that he would have those conversations with his son sons there was a uh one

time when he was driving me he was dropping me off on his way to work at the bus objection sustained the answers okay was there a particular form of physical behavior that would take place when jose was talking to someone yes overall did you observe this when he was having conversations with his sons yes and did that ever happen to you did he ever have conversations with you one-on-one where there was a physical sense yes okay can you describe for me what it was the first thing that comes to my mind is that his head

would look down at you and that there was this Sideways glance would he be close to you he would turn his head into you uh depending on where you were sitting yes and would there be a difference depending upon who was speaking whether he would look at you or look away if you remember what he looked like i'm not sure i understand the question when he was talking to you would he look at your mom talking in general or specific instances well do you remember any specific instances he he would look away when he was

talking to you or when you were talking to him if i confused you thoroughly yes during a conversation he would speak and say one of the boys would speak okay when jose was speaking to one of the boys would he be looking at them yes when the boys responded or when you responded would he continue to look at you or would he look away irrelevant let's confine it to conversations with the defendants okay form of the question if you saw you understand the question yes he would continue to look at them and was there something

very intense about these conversations well it's also vague objection during the conversations you observed with the two boys with lyle and eric Did the conversations appear to be of a light-hearted nature people were joking or did they appear to be very serious well we objections sustained the answer is stricken against vague we talk about every conversation what time frame things of that nature during any of the visits did you see one-on-one conversations between jose and either of the boys yes and did these occur on a regular basis yes and when they occurred were they always

the same mood or were there different types of conversations like this there were different types but generally in the context that we're talking about they were serious and the and the boys were intent on paying attention and was it the type of situation where you could interrupt or join in no do you remember anything about a belt that was a particular object in that house of of some importance we haven't i haven't asked this witness about about your honor i believe you have but objection if you have something else to go on with this witness

i'll permit you to explore it okay do you remember a pic you remember the belt yes i do what do you remember about the belt i remember seeing it all always sitting doubled over it was doubled over and then lapped over on the top of jose's Dresser okay do you have any other memories of that belt not at this moment you never saw it used on the boys is that correct not to my recollection no and punishment always took place behind closed doors is that correct yes were you allowed to go down near the boys

rooms when jose was in the room with his sense assistant you were do you think you were treated badly in the later visits that you had with this family it's a state it's your honor it's foundational when you left in 1983 were you still on good terms with the family i was extremely unhappy and did you ever ask to go back no i did not and did you after you left engage in some activity which you thought would have met their approval that's irrelevant was there approval of you important even long after you left yes

objection sustained the answer stricken after 1983 when is the next time that you saw lyle and eric menendez at the memorial service in 1989. thank you i have nothing further can i have the last question nothing after this question Question after 1983 when is the next time that you saw lyle and eric thank you your honor we do have the video that eight millimeters now been put on video and okay well we'll uh let's have the uh examination here first and then we can come back to that all right is there any further direct examination

on behalf of eric menendez all right cross-examination miss vander mullen i believe you've indicated that you had approximately four visits in the menendez home is that correct yes it is and the first one was 1976 and it was something i think you testified that was you had been looking forward to yes how would you categorize your stay that summer did you have a good time or a bad time or was it mixed or how was it that summer it was a good time okay were you treated well by mrs menendez that summer yes and how

about mr menendez did he treat you well i really did not develop a relationship whether i can comment on that was he around a lot during that summer that you recall he was frequently gone on on trips business trips during that time and when he was gone on business trips would that be during the week or would it include weekends or can you recall it's it's tough to recall i just i remember that he was gone a lot that summer and there was really not that much interaction between he and i that summer now your

sister was with you that summer for a period of about two months is that Correct yes did your sister ever complain to you about not being happy there that summer yes a lot but you were happy correct yes and you went on trips during that summer yes we did to washington dc into new york right and did you have a close relationship with the defendants during that summer as well yes did you spend time with them we did things together did you ever do things together with either one of the defendants without the parents being

present in other words did you play with them or talk with them or yes okay and so during that summer you had a separate relationship with the defendants that did not always include the parents yes were you loving towards them yes did you ever hug them or kiss them or anything to the best of my recollection yes right then i believe um when you left in august of 1976 you went home to where what did you to arizona and um then in the summer of 1977 now excuse me the summer of 1978 from june the

first until the third week of september um you were again at the menendez home is that correct can you repeat the question please all right between june 1st and the third week of september of 1978 that was your second visit is that correct yes so it was two summers after your first visit yes was that in the same house and or was that in a different house that was in a different house and was that the um princeton junction house yes and then we moved into the pennington house how would you categorize your stay during

That summer it was more or less a working i was a kitty had a carpet cleaning business that i was employed in and we were also busy um making decisions on the house that was being built in pennington and moving into it all right so you were actually employed that summer is that correct yes and uh what what year were you born in 1959 so you were being paid is that correct yes i i was working approximately 20 hours a week now when you returned that second time in the summer of 1978 were you looking

forward to going back yes then i believe the third time you stayed was the following summer but it was only for two weeks is that correct correct during your second visit how would you categorize your time there did you have a keeping in mind that you were working did you still have a good time or did you have a bad time or it yeah i'm pretty neutral on on how i felt either way all right now between the summer of 76 and the summer of 78 did you have any other contact with the menendez family

in other words did you ever visit or speak with them on the phone or anything like that i spoke with them on the phone yes were you invited back for the summer of 78 yes and did at the time that you were invited back did you know that you would be working in the carpet cleaning business I don't believe i did who paid your way from arizona to princeton do you recall the second summer my mother probably paid it it would have either been myself or my mother and you were about 19 years old that

summer is that correct yes then the third week i believe did you when you went to the excuse me the third summer when you went in 1979 did you go with a friend yes and were you invited that time we asked if we could come and we were told yes and that was a girlfriend of yours named karen yes and the menendez has allowed you to come and stay for a couple of weeks yes now during the first the second or the third summer did did you ever get charged rent or anything like that no

you were a guest yes um the third summer um did you have a nice time while you were there the two weeks 1979 when you were with karen yes it does housekeeping and gardening and so forth qualify for rental purposes well so you were asked to do chores is that correct to the nth degree and was that all all the three times that we've been talking about yes increasingly so with each visit okay and by the summer of 1979 you were 20 years old is that correct yes then your last visit occurred from june Of

82 until july of 83. is that correct june of 82 to july of 83 yes and at that time you were more than just a summer house guest correct correct you were living there yes and that was considered your residence during that period of time yes it was were you working i was working and going to school and maintaining the housekeeping and gardening and chauffeuring of the children was it your understanding when you went to live there that you would be required to do chores and housekeeping and things like that i anticipated helping if i

may answer the full age they had a housekeeper that came two days a week that was cut back to one half day upon my arrival i was required to do all the maintenance around the yard work which was a large yard and also work full time and be responsible for taking the children to a lot of their tennis practices in northeast philadelphia after they got out of school and also going to school by the summer of 1982 when you arrived had the family atmosphere changed from the first time you'd been there yes it had why

didn't you leave i when i first arrived i had no vehicle and i had a i'm not the type of person to give up and i wanted to try to make something work of this and i wanted to try to live Back east and it took me several months to get i had five major goals and it took me which involved getting a car getting money getting a job getting back into school and so forth and i was accomplishing those and i as soon as i was able i moved out all right so you weren't

happy there but you stayed anyway is that correct correct now going back to the summer of 1976 um i believe you've indicated during that time period that the the defendants were engaged in sporting activities is that correct yes and the father engaged in those activities with them in terms of either coaching them or taking them is that correct yes and the mother as well yes did you ever were you ever included any of the sporting activities no i was not well you were staying there during either of these any of these four visits did anyone

ever hit you no did you ever see either of the defendants um hit by either of their parents during any of those four visits i saw kitty shake lyle physically how many times a few in a 1982-83 visit be prior to that time had you seen either one of the defendants hit by their mother or their father i do not recall did mrs menendez appear to be under more stress as the years went on yes she did and was her behavior different around her Husband than it was around you when you were alone yes did

she um did she appear to have an equal relationship with her husband or was there an inequality that you that you could see he was final authority in the household she tried her best to stand her ground i believe you indicated that her personality when she wasn't around her husband is that she was she had opinions and things like that is that correct yes okay with her husband was she equally as strong-willed or opinionated she had definite opinions but his was the final word and so she would acquiesce to him is that correct she would

give in to him yes in 1976 when you were there the first time you had a good time and then in 1978 did you you still had a good time except you were working correct right well my relationship with katie was more or less of a it was real busy and we just were constantly on the go all of us and did you get along with her during the summer of 78 i would say for the most part but there were there was on a frustration already building within her that made it tough to feel

close to her were you sad when she died yes now you've testified and i've asked you as well about the fact that there was a lot of emphasis placed on sports is that Correct in this family yes were lyle and eric good tennis players that you could see yes and did they also appear to be able to speak on different topics in other words were they able to converse on different kinds of intellectual topics one of the questions okay did lyle menendez appear to be able to speak on certain on intellectual topics with his father

in your presence yes how about eric menendez yes although the more emphasis is given to lyle regarding those things the ferret that you've identified in one of the photographs was that a family pet yes it was do you know whose responsibility it was to look after the ferret in terms of cleaning up after it it's hard to say because the ferret pretty much had run in the house well during that period of time was it part of your um housekeeping duties to keep track of the ferret i think uh kenny i think kitty and i

pretty much would be the ones that ended up picking it up were there any other pets in the home during any of the four times that you stayed there i trust us okay tristass yes t-r-i-s-t-e-s-s for the court reporter does that sound right t-r-i-s-t-e-s-s again what was tristess tristas was a medium shorter dog that they had for 17 years and do you Know when it was that tristess died approximately twice died during my 82-83 visit sorry in the middle so she was there out during all your visits right yes now i believe you indicated that

um there was an incident you recall from 1976 where um lalman and his came to you wanted to sleep with you is that correct sleep in the same bedroom right and you've indicated that it was because that he made some comment to you about that is that correct yes i think your testimony was is that the first time you told anyone about it except for kitty menendez was in january of 1992 correct did you ever go to the county jail and speak with either of the defendants before talking to the defense attorneys about that statement

in 1992 can you rephrase that question please okay i believe it was january of 92 it's the first time you told anyone else about that statement correct after it occurred yes okay prior to talking to the defense attorneys about that statement before you talked to them had you been to the county jail to visit either of the two defendants yes and did you talk to them about it at that time no i have not okay what prompted you to mention it during your your talk with the defense attorneys in 1992 because i saw that it

possibly was relevant were you asked specifically a question about that no okay you volunteered it yes and when you spoke to them do you remember telling them that all you knew was that he meaning lyle made some comment about Jose and touching what i stated was what i stated yesterday and i'm i have not seen what has been written right now may i approach please your honor referring to page four of the interview of january the 15th of 1992. okay i'm gonna ask you to read everything that's in yellow okay it goes over to my

next page um this appears to be a paraphrasing and a summation of what i said but not my exact words all right um the report doesn't indicate anything about you gesturing towards your genitals is that correct this does not no all right and although i did all right but it but all right so you did but the report doesn't reflect that that's correct correct and as far as um on the second page five of this it says diane said that she really was never sure what that was all about and whenever she had suspicious thoughts

about it she just convinced herself that she had misunderstood or that maybe she wasn't remembering it correctly okay is that what you told the defense attorneys let me read this again okay i believe that i was never sure what that was all about within reference to kitty's reaction and that and when i had misunderstood that That's a paraphrasing of me saying that i was incorrect that was wrong okay that you misunderstood kitty's reaction or you misunderstood what lyle had indicated to you basically that i had misjudged the whole situation and i i didn't want to

think about it now after you heard about or after this was told to you in 1976 you went back to the menendez household three more times correct yes even though you were suspicious about what had happened in 1976 objection on humanity rephrase the question um did you when you went back to the house on the three subsequent occasions did you just put that out of your mind would it happen yes exactly yeah let me have a moment please yes yes sure all right um why don't we set up uh the video equipment since uh it's

going to be played during the further direct examination and then we'll have the jury come out no as i said we're going to set it up so we'll do that now okay yeah i don't have a suggestion ms lansing wants to realize can she go ahead and just reopen play this do the other stuff she wants to do and then i'll continue to cross all right that's fine with me thank you all right well let's get the uh see if we can get the sheriff to help us with the video equipment or detectives or For

a moment to see if it's adequate and then we'll proceed um is that's it uh all right how are we doing it looks okay judge i think we can rewind it i think it'll be right all right council have approved the video cassette now let's proceed let's get the juries out so we can start up with a problem well they'll have to make sure as it is and uh if it's received as an exhibit then if they want to have it replayed they can do it at that time mr graham and i can move over

maybe somebody if you want to move over but just leave it right where it is all right let's get the juries in place okay we have one jury in and the next is about to arrive before they do let me ask the jury here the blue jury what i've asked before as to whether or not anyone has been exposed to anything about this case in any form whatsoever outside of the courtroom since the trial has begun other than what you've already told me if you have would you raise your hand Okay nobody has right okay

and now the other jury is in the courtroom as well and let me ask the gold jury the same question i've asked the blue jury what i've been asking everyone throughout the trial whether any of you have been exposed to anything about this case outside of the courtroom in any form whatsoever since the trial began other than what you might have already told me if you have would you raise your hands anybody okay all right nobody has all right let's resume with the witnesses testimony if you get back on the witness stand please all right

and we'll break off the cross-examination for the moment to permit the defense to pick up on a couple matters that they forgot to deal with during earlier examination thank you miss vander mullen were there two incidents which occurred during your 1982-83 visits um which are difficult for you to talk about yes you know which two i'm referring to yes i do you remember which event occurred first i do not no can you tell me about them one at a time was there one that took place in the basement yes we were downstairs playing around oh

Lyle and eric and i and we it started out as just exaggerated play we were all wrestling around and [Music] somehow or another in a very rapid um transition they began it we were wrestling and before i knew it they were tying me up and uh they got me down to my bra with me screaming and them being very frantically doing what they were doing and did they stop then yes they did it stopped at that point and is this embarrassing to you yes and was there another incident that happened in front of the television

set yes with lyle and i and was this in the morning the afternoon the evening when was it it was at nighttime he was 14 years old at this time yes approximately um it was in what room were you in we were in the uh the tv room the family room that's off the kitchen was anybody else there at the time eric was upstairs in his bed asleep as far as we knew and where were kitty and jose they were out for the evening and where in the tv room were you and lyle we were

both laying down watching a Movie on the right in front of the tv and were you lying next to each other yes parallel to each other and what happened without any words being spoken lyle climbed on top of me and began fondling my breasts and what did you do i froze because i hadn't i had no um idea how to handle this because i was surprised i i didn't invite it provoke it entice it i it just came and what did you do did you stop it yes i did it stopped did you yell at

him or move and i believe i just moved and he knew that did he stop and did it ever happen again no you testified earlier that you used to watch when the boys were taken to the swimming pool and jose would teach them how to swim is that correct yes and were you present at the time when the family would film these training sessions yes and would it just be them swimming back and forth and diving and repeating the same behavior over and over they practice diving and kick strokes and proper arm strokes okay and

how long would these sessions last it could go on for an afternoon session you know it was it was serious coaching on behalf of jose coaching the boys Since he was a professional swimmer or somebody when you said go on for an afternoon are you talking about the whole afternoon like from 12 to four are you talking about two hours or you haven't i i don't i don't recall exactly how long but that it would be an afternoon worth of of practicing this okay thank you your honor i have a video i'd like to show

at this point in time and we need to mark it as the next order all right then if it is ready it can be played at this time all right if anybody has difficulty seeing it if this is received as an exhibit later in the trial then it would be in the jury room and the jury would be able to see it as well at that point all right the tape has been played you know i believe there'd be a stipulation that this is a film that was made during 1980 um of lyle and eric

in the swimming training sessions is that stipulated by both defendants yes all right any further examination of the witness did you recognize the people in that film yes um jose a mile and eric all right did you have further Cross-examination yes for the record and are these visitor slips that you filled out to visit both of the defendants each one three times in 1991. yes marie and i all right on one occasion it's here you could remove the microphone i'm sorry why did you get yourself set up and i didn't hear the answer that was

for more than just your visit someone else is with you yes maria maria the boy's grandmother was that on each of the six visits i was staying with her at the calabasas house the week that i came out with my son and we brought my son she and i and my son came out because the boys had met my son they didn't know he existed until 89 so it was important to me to bring him she drove me and the best of my recollection she on one visit i know she came in on because she

had my son stay with the woman that she had made acquaintance with while visiting them herself okay can i ask you another question please all right did you have private visits with either or both of the defendants or were you always with someone else on these six separate occasions do you know Marie and i both went and sometimes she came in sometimes she stayed out all right do you remember what month it was in 1991 that you had these visits in june right and they are not dated but one of them has a date of

june the 11th of 1991 stamped on the back does that refresh your memory as to about what date it was sure what were the three days if you recall that week i guess it appears june 9th june 11th and june 12th now i believe you've just testified uh when miss lansing just started asking you questions again that um an incident two incidents occurred during your 1982-1983 visit is that correct yes when was it that you told anyone on the defense about those visits do you remember i think that they asked me if i recalled them

to the best of my when you told the defense attorney who who was it you told let me ask you that joe lansing to the best of my knowledge and was that before the january 15th 1992 discussion i don't recall well um you told miss lansing about these two we discussed it on the january 1992 visit yes that's when we discussed it you discussed it then Yes and um if i were to show you the report and there's nothing in the report about that would that refresh your memory as to when you told her i'm

going to get this data i i'm referring to the two incidences that you just testified about the one where you were tied up and the one where lyle menendez crawled on top of you okay those two incidences when was it that you first told the defense about them i do not remember how many interviews did you have with the defense attorneys in this case i interviewed with them in january and i've interviewed with them since i've been here and so january of 92 was the first time excuse me on her um i believe miss lansing's

shaking her head write your question please do you remember when the first time was that you talked to the defense attorneys i spoke with them prior to their coming out in january of 1992. and when you spoke to them prior to them coming out in january of 92 was that over the phone or in person both so i think there was one time when i was here in june that i met with joe and was that the june that's represented by the slips that i just showed you yes so that would have been june of

91 correct And during the june of 91 visit it was then that you told them about the incidents about being tied up and having lyle crawl on you is that correct possibly why i i don't recall exactly when we discussed it why didn't you tell them about the incident in 1976 with lyle wanting to sleep with you when you first met with them in june of 91. objection overrolled objection overall what are the grounds please i'm sorry but with the ground that uh you mischaracterized okay all right when when lyle wanted to come down and

spend the night with you and it happened in 1976 correct yes you sleep in the same bedroom right and you told us why now you also indicated the first time you told anyone about that was in january of 92 correct correct and that would have been at least your second interview with the defense attorneys correct please yes because you also met with them six months earlier or seven months earlier in june of 91. correct and is it your recollection now that it was june of 91 that you told them about the sexual incident with you

being tied up and lyle's crawling on top of you we discussed it possibly i did not tell them they asked me if i remembered something about it we didn't go into any detail right during that conversation did you Tell them about what had happened in 1976 with lyle wanting to sleep with me no i did not why not it was something that i had held within me for a long time had not thought about i did not know the defense i did not know anything about the case at that point we were talking in generalities

about who my family members were when i had been out there okay did you find out something about the defense that caused you to bring forth this information in january 92 i believe i told jill on the phone when i knew that they were going to say jill who are you referring to joe lansing i'm sorry that there was something that i wanted to discuss with them when they came out and and that was prior to the january 92 interview is that correct yes and at that time had you learned something about what the defense

would be that prompted you to recall or to tell this in the course of our interview yes there was something and is that one and i don't recall what it was that was said to me at this point but something was said to you by miss lansing is that correct yes and that prompted you to tell her the information yes and that was and that was the first time then since you talked to mrs menendez about it correct yes okay now the incidences that occurred in 1983 where you were tied up i want to ask

you about that one first at the time you were approximately 23 years old is that correct yes and at that time the defendants were approximately 12 and 15. They were either 11 and 14 or 12 and 15. and they were able to tie you up is that correct yes were they strong the entire incident started out in a playful manner so that by the time they were tying me up it was it was in a very rapid it it transitioned from being playful to to embarrassing for me and by the time it had transition made

the transition to being embarrassing the two of them were already in the process of having me tied up and so forth were they doing it together yes both of them yes and what were you doing right before it returned from being playful and too serious overall what were you doing with them all right a little more specific place what activity were you engaging in with them that turned from playful into something more serious i don't know that i was doing anything specific at the moment that it turned from playful to serious or embarrassing it was

never it was embarrassing on my part it was never serious on their part it was more of a frenzy type moment that they transitioned into and i stopped it at That point what were you doing right before this incident started were you i was were you wrestling were you playing monopoly what were you doing we began by having playful wrestling the three of you yeah and they were adolescents at that time is that correct yes and then the other incident did that occur before or after the incident where lyle crawled on top of you was

that after you were tied up or before i do not recall did you ever report either a suggested instance to anyone no i did not was the first time that you talked about them with anyone when you mentioned them to the defense attorneys in june of 91 yes and at the time that lyle menendez crawled on top of you he was an adolescent is that correct yes and you were approximately 23 at the time yes and you had been living in the house for quite a period of time when this occurred is that correct yes

what did mrs menendez look like when she was proud of her children what kind of smile did she exhibit oh when she was proud of her children yes it was similar to uh when she got angry on it would be a smile instead of a grimace all right so she would she would go like this and she'd like this all right so she would smile the same way that she would express displeasure is that correct In a similar type of way she her body movements would sit back rather than come towards you and it would

be the same clenched teeth only it would be in a smile instead of like that and but her arms would come out to the side and she would put her arms and fists or her hands and fists i believe you indicated on your direct examination that you recall an incident where eric ran away from home is that that's how you characterized it did he run away from home i know that he was he was missing he was gone when he shouldn't have been do you remember having described it earlier as the boat was missing and

eric searching for the boat there could know okay do you remember was there another incident where the boat was missing and eric went to look for it i i don't recall may i touch please yes ms vandermolen have you seen any notes of the interviews that you have attorneys before testifying today and not for a long time i'm going to show you this right here just that one sentence and ask you if that refreshes your memory yes of course okay just a second i have to tell you something it's the supplemental notes january the 15th

the fifth page the second paragraph on the bottom Right so if the characterization is that you remember the boat being missing and eric searching for it would that be an incorrect characterization of which of what your recollection is yes okay so it's a recollection here today that rather than the boat being missing it was eric running away it was eric missing and the canoe was missing and they were and eric was found in the with the canoe okay were there any times during the four times that you visited that you ever saw laughing and gaity

and lightheartedness yes all right could you describe which visit that was during and what what that compromised or comprised pardon me there were moments throughout each of the visits more so in the earlier visits than in a later visit um generally surrounding an accomplishment that that would be enjoyed for the moment did you ever see the family get in bed together and and talk and you know the the parents would be there and the kids would get in and you'd come and join did that ever happen the boys would uh join kitty in the bed

if jose was not at home and we would talk for a while until it was ready bedtime and then i would get ready to go downstairs and that would be when they would discuss who would be whose turn it was to sleep with kitty if jose was not home When jose was home i recalled him jose gathering in the den with the boys until it was about bedtime um to the best of my knowledge i don't i can't picture all four of them all right if i showed you a report you think it might refresh

a recollection let's show up to council first does this refresh your recollection that when jose was home the boys and their parents would be on the bed laughing and you saw deity and lightheartedness i'm not sure that those are my exact words but is the sentiment correct the den is adjoining the bed jerome so perhaps that's a a blend of the two things that i was saying i believe you indicated on direct examination that eric menendez and his cousin andy were friendly is that correct is that yes yes i'm sorry and on several occasions did

andy spend the night at the menendez home yes and did he appear to be an invited guest in the menendez home yes and um did eric appear to have a close relationship with his cousin yes um now did you see this occur during which visit was it that you saw eric close with his cousin andy by the last visit they were marta and her children were living in the area so i know it occurred then there was an earlier visit where he was by himself staying in the home and i'm not sure exactly when that

was and for how long when you say by himself He was a he was a a temporary guest in the home all right so prior to the summer of 82 and 83 cono came and stayed as a guest just as you had is that correct yes not for a song of a duration though do you remember about how long i can't tell you and then after during 82 and 83 um andy cono's family lived close by and he was there frequently would that be correct he made several he made several visits to the house i

can't tell you how frequently they were we have a moment please yes okay um in the situation that you described that occurred where you were um tied up by the brothers what did they tie you up with i don't recall and did they tie you to something or they just tie your hands together how did that occur my hands were tied together with that i don't remember specifics because of the embarrassment involved with it it's it's hard for me to recall specifically what took place and the i can't i can't tell you specifics about it

okay were you alone in the house with them at the time i would imagine so and after you at some point you got we were in the basement by ourselves so i can answer you that and they got your do you had a top on Did they get your top off i don't know that they took it all the way off but it was unbutton revealing my bra and and that was the end did they take off your bra no right and did they how did you get them to stop by insistence thank you i

have nothing further any redirect vandermullen you were asked about visiting at the jail yes yes [Music] how many times have you been out here in california since eric and lau were arrested then and now and how long were you out for then oh approximately one week this was june of 91 yes and you said you had your son with you yes i did and how old is your son he is now nine years old and you were staying at uh a home in calabasas with the boy's grandmother maria yes i was now when you went

to the visit to visit at the jail how did you get there maria dropped me and your son went with you yes he did on each visit or on sunday on some of the visits i i don't recall if he was there every time i guess he would have been there because the times that he didn't see wasn't able to then he stayed with that woman so okay now when you visit at the jail do you Speak to someone face to face or is there something dividing you there's we speak through a glass on the

telephone okay and do you have any information about whether those phone this is in the jail i take it is that right yeah does this take place in the jail yes okay and there are sheriffs all around yes and there are other people visiting yes now if you were visiting one either lyle or eric would they be seated directly in front of you they'd be across from me in in a chair okay and there'd be a glass and a glass partition between the two of us and would there be other people who were in jail

seated on both sides of them yes and how close do they sit are they 10 feet apart or no i mean between the people who are in jail yes there there's just about this much space and then the next person would be right here okay so indicating you're on approximately four feet it's like more like three feet three feet okay so they're about three feet and and there are people who are in jail on both sides of them yes and just two or three in an area or would there be a larger number it depends

on how many people had been called out for a visit okay but usually would there be but there was always some other people that they'd be called out with okay and the side that you're seated on is it set up similarly so there would be visitors for each yes for each person who is being visited there was another person across through the glass that was talking to them and sometimes would There be more than one person visiting somebody yes how many people can come in i don't know i know that there's you can go in

two or three at least or four since i we've now had four okay and when you talk on the phone um this way how long are the uh the visits uh generally uh half or 20 minutes to half an hour now after you visited with them meaning lyle and eric you gave the information to me that we're discussing here today in january of 91 is that correct i'm 92 i'm sorry sustain okay did you did you see me again after you were here in california in june yes i did and when was that january of

1992. okay and do you remember whether you gave me this information in person or on the phone do you recall the information about what happened in the basement with lyle and his father i told you in person so the next time you would have seen me would have been seven months after you were visiting the boys in the jail is that correct yes You were asked if you had a good time in 1976 when you were visiting were you made to feel special then yes i was did you get a lot of attention from kitty

a lot yeah and did you did she have some particular interest in your appearance and your she helped me to lose weight which was important to me at the time and she drove me to get my first driver's license she introduced me to my first boyfriend we made trips to places that are nationally known and so forth so that was a good time yes did you ever get that kind of attention or caring from her again no in all honesty you know and you were asked if you were a guest in the home um did

you always have chores to do yes there are always chores in the last visit it was overwhelming okay now when it would be chores would it be just a matter of gee would you mind doing the breakfast dishes or would the projects be larger than that uh no i i was responsible for cleaning the entire house and chauffeuring their voice i'd say pretty much daily in the evenings and sometimes to school and taking care of whatever yard work there was needing to be done and okay you were asked if it was uh your responsibility to

clean up the ferret Do you remember that yes i remember the question and did you try to clean up after the ferret while cleaning yes if i saw it it there wasn't any specific place to clean it up so it's it's hard for me to recall well was it in every room the fair droppings were they in every room of the house or did the ferret just have access to one or two rooms or in the ferret room the house did he get in cabinets and under beds and all sorts of if yeah he'd show

up all over the place how big was he okay okay you said you were asked about um the reference in the report my wording that that you felt you had misjudged the situation with regard to the incident in the basement i'm sorry i i i didn't hear what the objection was as to the wording as you've misstated the evidence you've told us about an incident that occurred between lyle and his father in the basement in which lyle told you that they had been touching each other is that correct yes and there was you said that

you had you thought you had misjudged the situation do you remember that yes okay what do you mean by that Since it was never discussed again and and due to kitty's reaction i took i took the responsibility for the whole the way the whole thing was handled when you told her what you thought had happened did she seem to think that your assessment of the situation was correct or that it was ridiculous did she respond in a way that showed you that she took what you had to say seriously no she did not how did

she respond overall how did she respond there's there's a way when she does not believe you it's she she shakes her head and it's just like like an utter the whole thing is absurd and and then she walked out and that's when she went and got low okay and how old were you at this time 17. and is this it was kitty someone who whose opinion affected you yes i have nothing else all right did you want to be excused okay all right we'll excuse mr laumann in this end it's all right stand behind the

court reporter over here and then face the court clerk please the whole truth Ca mr connor you have to pull the mic so it's facing directly at you okay we fixed it so it doesn't matter how close we go okay um are you usually referred to as andy cano yes where were you born mr cano i was born in livingston new jersey where were you raised in your earliest childhood years puerto rico and who did you live in puerto rico with my mother my father you're a little too far from the microphone okay and your

mother is who marticano and uh was jose menendez your uncle yes she was and speak up also okay mike doesn't pick up your voice okay it takes a few minutes to get used to where you should be and are you there for first cousin to uh eric and lyle menendez yes i am at some point did your family uh you and your mother your brother and sisters moved to new back to new jersey yes we did and do you recall approximately how old you were when your family moved to new jersey well i would have

been six years old in 79. and at the time when you and your family moved to new jersey were your parents separated and or divorced yes they were i believe they got divorced right after i moved there i'm not sure now currently mr condo what do you do for a living well i'm a student a full-time student and where do you go to school ucf which Is a university of central florida in orlando and have you been and are you still athletic yes i am and what is your sport soccer and do you uh you

play soccer i take it you're on teams yes i am do you also teach it and coach it yes i do overall when you were six years old and your family moved to new jersey did you play soccer then i believe i started when i was seven years old i didn't play in puerto rico no but once i went to new jersey yes i started and were you um aware of whether or not your cousin eric menendez also played soccer yes he did were you aware of other sports that that your cousin eric was involved

in well later on he became involved in tennis but that's all i know now did you form a friendship with your cousin eric menendez yes approximately how old were you and how old was he when the two of you became friends well uh i was probably seven year old seven years old and we really became friends but i had met him previously had you visited with your cousin eric menendez's family while you were still living in puerto rico yes i did had you seen him and his Parents and his brother at family gatherings over different

times of the year while you were still living in puerto rico i don't remember if we came up or not okay once you moved back to the mainland did you see more of him yes now would you uh from time to time ever stay over at eric and lyle's hat yes i did and do you recall basically whether there was a pattern to this i mean what types of days what days of the week would you say it was mostly on the weekends and do you know over what age your age would you stay over

at eric and lyle's house well it varied between ages uh i would say between my ages of 8 and 10 years old was the times that i most often was able to go over his house and after that it was less frequent that's right when you were 10 years old how old was eric he was 12 and a half that's right now were there occasions when your cousin eric ever stayed at your house very few times i can only recall one do you recall a time when your cousin eric was playing at your house where

in the course of your time Together he told you something you had not heard before yes i do and can you first tell us where were you guys physically when this play began okay what i recall is this like i said before this is one of the few times that he was able to come to my house for any activities and this particular time i remember being winter time and there were fields behind my house agricultural fields and they would it would be a field and then a strip of woods and then there would be

another field and another strip of woods and so on and we were back in the fields okay and you were playing some kind of game in the fields behind your house that's right we had toy guns and we were pretending like we were running from an army we would play war games pretty often what was the name of this particular game do you remember well i just remember we were running from the russians i don't know if they call it that game or not but uh but that's what you were putting so that's what we

were pretending at the time and at some point while you were pretending to run from the russians did something happen that made the two of you take cover or hide yes what happened okay uh there was a farmer that owned the fields i guess and i had heard stories from other neighborhood kids and so on that he was pretty mean to people that passed by the fields or would play in the fields and uh that time there was a helicopter and we thought that it was him The helicopter you mean was flying it was flying

over us and it seemed very close to us and we we thought for sure that it was the farmer spotting people on the fields and we i was very scared and i definitely told him about it so we started running and where did you get to well we got to the woods and then we decided that we were going to run we were going to split up and we were going to run to a tree uh in another patch of woods a couple fields afterwards that we both knew about we were going to run and

meet at the tree okay and did you run and meet up the tree yes we did and did you spend some time at the tree hiding from the farmer yes and during the time that you were at the tree hiding from the farmer did eric begin a conversation with you yes and do you recall how the conversation began well yes i do okay would you tell us how it began he asked me if uh my dad ever gave me massages and did you understand at that point what he meant no i didn't and do you

recall basically what your response to him was well uh at that point i got the feeling i'm sure he let me know this but he was actually trying to find out if Any of these massages were normal and i my response to him was that i wouldn't know i didn't have a father around my parents were divorced then and i really couldn't help him let me ask you this he asked you whether your father gave you massages that's right did you you said he was trying to find out if it was normal was there something

else he told you about the massages like where they were yes you did okay what did he say about where the massages were well he told me his father was massaging his dick he used that word yes he did and he was asking you some kind of question about this kind of behavior he was seemed like he was reaching out to me objection speculation see if we can reconstruct this mr connor first he asks you does your dad give you massages something like that that's right and then do you ask him anything like what kind

of massages what do you mean by massages i'm sure i did and then he tells you that he's talking about his dad massages his dick or does something to his dick is what he tells you that's right so then does he ask you again does this happen to you or anything like that yes he uh at that point we were both trying to figure out whether what was happening to him was normal he wanted to know that this happened to Every kid with a father-and-son relationship and i couldn't help him i didn't have a father

around so you said i i don't know my dad's not here that's right okay something to that effect okay and what else is said as best you can remember in the course of this particular conversation well what uh i do remember very specifically was him asking me to make a promise to him never to reveal that to anybody and he was saying it very seriously and i took it very seriously had you suggested at any point in the conversation revealing it to someone or telling someone or asking someone about it well at that point i

was wondering myself and i really wanted to ask my mother if that was normal did you mention that to eric yes i did and was it after that that he made your promise i don't remember it it was probably after that yes so you told him i don't know if it's normal why don't i ask my mom something like that exactly and what did he say to you when you suggested asking your mother he told me never to reveal it to anybody to promise him that i would keep it a secret between us now were

there any other times that you were with your cousin eric when this topic of massages with his father came up There were several times i recall and do you remember where these conversations came up yes i do in his bedroom in the pennington house and we're on these occasions when you were visiting or sleeping over or something else most likely sleeping over i remember most of them took place at night and do you remember anything about uh first of all that the next time it came up do you have any idea of when that was

in relation to this wintertime when you were playing running from the russians i'm sorry when was the next time do you have any idea well it uh it's probably a month later why do you think that would be my best because i remember it not being exactly later but it wasn't too far along the road it was definitely probably about a month's time that had passed did you see your cousin eric more frequently than once or twice a month at this time no and you recall generally what the topic was the next time it came

up well it was sort of a continuation of the conversation we had in the woods just basically contemplating on whether it was normal or not okay and was there anything else that occurred in this conversation that you Can remember did eric ask you anything well i remember he told me again never to tell anybody and uh i brought it up again that maybe he should uh let me ask my mother and uh i remember him replying no and i asked him why didn't he let his mother know or ask his mother you do you remember

what he said when you asked why didn't he ask his mother overall yes i do what did he say he said that she would get mad at his father now do you recall a subsequent occasion another occasion when this topic was being discussed between you and eric where he gave you some additional information about what was going on yes and can you recall that tell us what you can remember of that conversation what i can remember of that conversation uh is very little but i do remember very well that he explained to me that these

massages that his father was giving him were beginning to hurt and do you remember whether or not you understood what that meant or i definitely didn't understand and did do you recall whether or not you tried to gather any information about why massages were hurting i would imagine i did but uh i don't remember okay Did you ask eric straight out why does it hurt or how does it hurt or what is he doing that's making you hurt if i did i don't remember and you don't remember his ever elaborating on it he didn't tell

you anything about tacks or needles or ropes or anything no he didn't were you familiar with a nickname that your cousin eric used to refer to himself at about this same time yes i did and what was that nickname it was hurt man now did he express to you in this last conversation um his desire with respect to these massages with his father what he wanted what his father wanted to know what eric wanted what eric wanted uh yeah he told me he wanted him to stop uh i remember that being the last conversation that

i remember and was there any further discussion with him about your knowing about this i'm sorry in this last conversation was there any further discussion with eric about your knowing about what was going on with him and his dad well it was very clear that he wanted to keep it as a secret between us and that i was never gonna reveal that to anybody and i had promised a man swore To him that i wouldn't uh but he definitely seemed nervous seemed nervous about what mr connor that i might tell somebody from what you had

observed in the family did it appear to you that eric was afraid of his father yes were you afraid of his father i was now use when you slept over at the menendez home did you sleep in eric's bedroom yes and do you recall whether or not there was a loose slat from his bed yes i do was there yes there was and do you recall what that what did you ever see anybody use that slat for any purpose eric and i used it once to pin the door from opening there were no locks on

the doors so you could prop the door closed with the slat that's right and did you see that loose slat there on more than one occasion yeah there was a trundle bed under his bed uh you can see you could slide out and usually when you pulled it out the slat would fall and it'd have to be placed back on okay so i do remember it several times falling off and on this one occasion you remember Actually using it to prop the door that's right did you think of that or did eric show you oh

eric showed me that do you recall an occasion mr connor when you were staying at eric's house or visiting his house when you hurt yourself and you wanted to use something on your injury yes and how did you hurt yourself first well we uh eric and i would usually go outside and play through the woods and so on watch clarify that do you recall approximately how old you were at the time you're talking about when you hurt yourself i believe i was around 11 years old it's the best i can do okay so if you're

11 then eric's about 13 and a half to 14. right so you and eric would play in the woods and you'd get hurt i got scratched on a log or on a branch or something my leg did okay so what did you do about that well i wiped it off but when we went back to his room i remember seeing a jar of vaseline what i didn't know what it was used for or what it was then but i figured it was a type of ointment that you put on scratches and so on okay so

did you did you try to use it for your scratch i picked it up and eric immediately told me to put it back down okay did he say anything else about it no he did it he just said don't touch it well did you explain why you wanted to use it yes i told him i was just going to put it on my scratch and did he tell you Anything about that yeah he said that's not what it's for i have nothing further cross-examination you're on is there a glass of water or something that'd be

great why don't you go ahead okay thank you ronnie mr connell how old were you when you had this uh alleged conversation with eric menendez in this field i believe i was 10 years old at the time and eric menendez was about 13. he would have been going on 13 it was winter time thank you very much and this is the first time you had ever heard of these massages [Music] that's right and when he told you that you didn't tell anyone which what he had told you no and you recall this happening in the

winter sometime yeah that's right and the next next conversation that you had with him was when about a month later it was in the same field no it was in his bedroom at home and he brought up the subject again yes and was there a third conversation yes there was now i know i must have brought up the conversation at least once i remember bringing it up i don't remember how i did at some point though You again talked to uh your cousin about these massages that's right and this was about how much later about

a month later i would say from the first occurrence is what you're asking yes yes so there's it's been spaced out about a month apart these three conversations a month each i'm sorry would you ask me again the first conversation occurred when you're in the field about a month later you had a conversation with your cousin eric menendez in his bedroom and then about a month after that he had another conversation i don't remember when exactly those other two took place uh but the second conversation i had was about a month later i don't remember

about the other ones how much later they were and he talked about a massage that his father had given him that's right on every one of these occasions you talk about a massage uh i don't remember if on the third or fourth he did but uh i i knew by then what he was talking about so he didn't have to let me know and he asked you if your father ever gave you a massage like that yes you did now did you ever tell anybody about this i didn't tell anybody until i told miss leslie

anderson and that was some time after eric menendez was arrested for the murders of his parents that's right now after your cousin was arrested did he give you his car his car on his car i don't believe he gave it to me i bought it from him you bought it from him that's right what did you finish my Mother did what did you pay for it i don't remember what kind of car was it it's a ford escort now when your cousin was arrested he was uh 19 years old correct i believe so and you

were 16 at the time that's right so you were just starting to drive that's right now it's your understanding that you bought that car yes my mother i believe bought it you don't know that though no i do know that you know that she bought it yes and do you have any idea of what she paid for it i have no idea yeah your cousin was a good friend of yours right yes he was and is it is and uh i believe your mother had testified that she would lie for the brothers would you also

do that action you're on testimony it's argumentative objection sustained would would you lie for eric menendez i am not lying for him now and i wouldn't lie for anybody under oath you would not i would not miss crayon and you never told anyone this until after your cousin was arrested that's right now there's been testimony that you accompanied eric menendez from florida to los angeles after he came back from israel you remember that yes i do did he tell you that he was involved in the killings of his parents on that plane flight from florida

to los angeles No i we talked for a while but it was mostly concerning of how he was doing um i don't recall too much of that conversation he wasn't he he was very upset he was very emotional and he wasn't in the mood to talk about where did you meet him did you meet him in florida somewhere in miami in miami that's fine did he come to your house no he didn't we flew we i flew from new jersey i believe and i met him in miami and from there he had flown in i

don't know where he flew in from but from there we flew right back into uh into la and there were all the way from miami to la they were people i don't know who they were uh assigned to us to watch out and to make sure that he was put on the plane there was always somebody with us when you say somebody was with you who are you talking about i wouldn't have to call them detectives or policemen but they were there to make sure that eric got on the plane and went to l.a were

the miami police officers at one point i believe they were because i remember them putting us in a private room and i would figure they were from miami so the way that it um happened then is did you arrive at the miami airport first no i probably arrived i don't know if a day later a day before i'm sorry uh in the west palm airport where my mom picked me up that's the best of my recollection but to be honest i don't remember much so you arrived the day before Your cousin arrived at the west

palm airport i don't know i don't know if it was a day before or two days before i really can't tell you well in any event you were there before your cousin arrived that's right and when your cousin arrived you met him that's right and how much time did you spend with him prior to actually getting onto the plane an hour maybe i don't know and during that period of time there were police officers that were making sure that your cousin got on the plane that's right for los angeles my mother was also with us

did your mother also accompany your cousin and you to los angeles yes she did on that flight yes you did did you sit did you all sit together yes was there ever any conversation between you and your cousin on that plane flight to los angeles from florida was there any conversation yes i'm sure there was and what was the nature of that conversation objectionary calls for harrison you're offering state state of mind right yeah this is what you approach and we'll discuss it mr connell did you and eric menendez discuss um the killing of his

parents not that i recall no not at all on this plane flight might have been brought up but he didn't tell me that he did it and he didn't give me an answer to very much At all when you say he didn't give you an answer did you ask him whether he was involved in the killings of his parents i might have i don't recall you might have asked him that i might have asked him and uh i don't think he gave me an answer would you have remembered if he gave you an answer overall

i don't know i don't remember now would that have been something important for you to remember yes you would have you would have wanted to know if if he had been involved in the killing of his parents i take it i would have wanted to know yeah i would have wanted to know sure in fact um you believe that he may have been involved that's why you asked him whether he was involved to be honest with you mr curiama i don't even remember asking him mostly what i was concerned with was his well-being i knew

from recent talks with eric that he was suicidal and that's what i was worried about i was worrying about him and i remember one time on the airplane he locked himself in the bathroom for about an hour it seemed to me like an hour i was waiting and waiting and waiting for him to come out and i went and knocked because i was very worried about what he might have done in that bathroom did you believe at that time that he was having a guilty conscience about killing his parents i didn't believe anything i just

believed that i was very worried about him being worried about him being suicidal Did you uh suspect that he had been involved in the killings of his parents i suspected it did eric menendez indicate to you that uh he was upset with his father objection today this time sustained reduction sustained do you recall in these conversations that you had in which eric menendez expressed that he was suicidal when did these conversations take place i don't remember i i knew about it uh we like i said we were very close i knew about some of his

problems you're talking about uh on the flight to los angeles is that i'm trying to ascertain when it was that uh these conversations took place actually but you're still big i don't know what conversations he's talking about sustained want to rephrase the question mr connell i believe you testified that you had conversations with your cousin in which he expressed that he was felt suicidal that's right when did that occur i don't remember this is all about five six years ago i'm scrim i uh i i couldn't tell you all i can remember is what i

have placed in my mind here and there were certain things that stuck out in my mind that i do remember very well and there were others that i just don't know where and how they happened we specify five or six years ago what date are you referring to i'm not referring to any date i'm just referring it was a long time ago what time frame what incident was occurring at that time i think he's talking about the conversations about uh suicidal type is that before the flight from miami to los angeles yes oh definitely before

That was before sometime but the flight from before the flight from miami to l.a yes okay and what is your best memory of when where and when that occurred maybe a phone call he might have called me somewhere i don't know uh when he moved to la i moved to puerto rico i mean puerto rico to florida so we didn't keep in touch this much but as much as we could we would and i had talked to him several times throughout the years that he was living in l.a and during that period of time he

called you and told you i feel suicidal we had some really in-depth conversations we were very close still even though we were separated and in this before or after the death of jose it was before this before it was before so in these conversations that you had with the defendant eric menendez before he killed his parents he told you that he was suicidal correct yes he did and you said he got into some in-depth discussions about problems he was having that be fair to say uh yes that would be fair to say would he describe

for you problems that he was having specifically with his father i don't remember i really don't like i said there's certain things that stick out in my head and the others i just don't remember you have a very good memory of uh what he told you when you're nine years old yes i do mistakes the testimony overall is that correct sir Uh i could say i have a good memory of what uh the subject of the conversation was i don't know exactly you know every step of the way of the conversation okay let's just try

to get to what you do recall now if your cousin had called you in puerto rico from los angeles and said i'm suicidal would that have been something that got your interest well you called me to florida but uh that would have been something that got my interest definitely so that was that would be something that you would recall yes and what do you recall about that sir i just remember him telling me i don't remember where and what phone call i was in my house in west palm beach most likely i just know that

i know that i knew that he had a lot of problems with himself and with his family and was suicidal and he felt that he was what is it that he expressed to you the nature of the problems i don't remember did you say well why are you suicidal if i did i don't remember would that be a question that would be a logical question to ask of your cousin objection on humanity you don't recall asking him any questions i don't recall now you asked him about these uh alleged massages correct that's right and you

wanted to know in detail what occurred there not in detail he would never give me any details uh we basically were always trying to figure out if what was happening to him was normal and i had no way of knowing like i said and then when he told you later on when he was in los angeles about the problems he was having with his parents you never Ask him the nature of those problems of which problems the problems that he when he called you when you were in florida and he was in los angeles you

never said well what kind of problems are you having i don't remember no i don't know i can't say for sure when you flew from florida to los angeles just prior to when your cousin was arrested for the murders of his parents you had the information from eric menendez he had called you previously from los angeles regarding the problems that he was having with his parents correct i'm gonna object right mistakes the witnesses test rephrase the question please okay you recall that you've testified that eric menendez called you in florida and told you that he

was having problems with his parents objection that's what mistakes and he said problems with himself and his family all right rephrase the question you testified that you got a call from eric menendez in florida that eric was having problems with his family is that right objection mistakes the testimony can you ask a question one more time mr corey i'm sorry so many questions i'm confused now you've testified that when eric menendez moved to los angeles he would call you periodically when you're in florida correct he did call me periodically and on at least one of

those occasions he told you that he was suicidal correct yes i believe that's how i knew it and on at least one occasion he told you That he was having problems with his family is that right yes it is and it's your testimony that you never asked and you don't know what the nature of those problems were i don't remember uh we we would talk pretty in-depthly about a lot of things and there was a lot of problems in my life that i would talk to him about as well so i was pretty distracted you

know if i would talk to him were you having problems with your family as well uh the i don't remember i'm sure there's i've always had problems everybody always has problems so i would talk to him about what was on my mind would you discuss were you ever suicidal no i'm going to eject at this point i'm pretty far field on this plane ride from florida to los angeles that you had indicated that you suspected that your cousin had been involved in the killings of his parents correct that's right and you made a comment to

him uh would you describe uh for the jury how your cousin reacted to your question about whether he was involved he states his testimony be more specific again counsel just state your legal objection be more specific as to what you mean mr freedom okay do you recall uh mr cono uh eric menendez's reaction to your inquiry as to whether he was involved in the killing of his parents i don't recall Miss cram i don't recall anything about that plane ride i was very emotional so was he you were thinking enough to ask him whether or

not he was involved in the killing so objective argument and mistakes the witnesses overall is that right sir i'm sorry you were you were thinking and clear-headed enough to ask your cousin whether he was involved in the killings i don't remember now what did your your mother and your presence ever ask uh eric menendez whether he was involved in the killings of his parents if she did say the answer is during the period of time when you returned with eric menendez back to los angeles you took the plane ride from florida to los angeles and

what is that like a five-hour flight yes and then you touch down at lax correct as far as i can remember i don't think it was a connecting flight i really doubt it but definitely touched down at lax if that's where we landed i think so when you arrived at lax were there any instructions given to you by your cousin none none and have you visited your cousin in jail i have and you visited him with your mother yes um about how many times oh that's hard to say as as best i can Remember maybe

four times i visited him four or five i don't know somewhere around that number and did you ever discuss the the pending case that he had in this matter no it was uh very brief when i ever got to see him it was only 20 minutes you know and i would have to split that time with my mother my main concern was how he was doing during these visits did he ever tell you that he indeed was the killer of his parents with his brother no he didn't tell me that he never told you that

no i have nothing further this time here mr connor was it significant to you when you were a kid when you were 10 or 11 that your cousin eric has sworn you to secrecy about something yes it was is that like something boys do you know blood brothers and swearing secrecy sort of like a pinky promise sort of like a pinky promise and did eric make this the real the strongest pinky promise you ever had to make it wasn't a pinky promise but uh it was definitely very intense and i would have never told anybody

was your friendship with eric when you were a little guy special to you yes it was now do you remember a time when you were living in florida when you were contemplating thinking about moving To puerto rico to live with your dad yes i will tie it up your honor if i can okay do you remember receiving a call from eric about that time when you were thinking about moving to puerto rico overall yes i remember a call and do you remember in that phone call eric telling you then that he was very upset suicidal

and wanted to come live with you in florida i don't remember the exact nature of the conversation but i remember in that conversation he did tell me that he wanted to come live with in with me in florida uh because he was having problems at home okay and do you recall what your response to him was yes uh yeah what was it okay i i told him that at that point i was thinking of moving to puerto rico but that if i didn't know whether my father would mind if he would have wanted to come

down there with me now did you wind up moving to puerto rico yes i did irrelevant overall yes i did now do you recall after your aunt and uncle were killed did you see eric back east after myan and uncle were killed yes i saw him at the funeral okay and did you see him even after the week of the funeral on other trips he made Back east before he was arrested yeah i saw him several times you had sisters who still live in the new jer in the princeton area yes that's true and were

you in the princeton area after apart from the attending the memorial service or the funeral were you in the princeton area in 1989 in the fall yes i i attended the hunt school of princeton which is in princeton new jersey so you were actually living there then that's right and did you see your cousin eric on visits he made there yes i did i don't recall that he made too many but at least i didn't see him too many times but the times i did i'd spend a little bit of time with him okay now

you said that when you were on the airplane with him you were concerned about him because you knew that he had felt suicidal in the past that's right and does that relate only to the distant past before his parents died or did you have any information about his feeling suicidal after they died well that feeling that i had began before they died and had you received any information after they died that led you to believe that he was feeling suicidal well knowing eric as a friend i knew that uh that was definitely possible and going

through whatever he went through Was hard enough for him that i thought that maybe he would now you said that the plane ride here from florida was very emotional were you aware at that time that your cousin lyle menendez was in jail yes and was it your expectation that as soon as eric got to los angeles he too would be locked up yes and based on anything that was said was that eric's understanding he was going back to go to jail that's right he knew that very well when eric was a teenager did he strike

that after eric moved to california did he ever bring up the molestation by his father to you again no did you ever broach the subject again no when he would make reference to problems in the family was he ever specific about what was going on at that you can recall no uh i don't recall any details he would just say something like things with my parents are going really badly something to that effect did you know that there was talk of potential divorce in that family in 1986 and 1987. i really didn't know much about

his family they're very private people from what you had observed being around them over the years did you think that it would be Difficult for a kid to be in that family how did you think it would be to be a child of that family based on what you saw i definitely think your speculation objection system did you have any difficulty in understanding eric when he said he had problems with those parents no i didn't did you think they were problem parents objections did you think that you would have problems living with your uncle jose

and your aunt kitty when eric would tell you that he was having problems did you ask him to elaborate if i did i don't recall i'm sure i must have at some point did you ever envy him or wish you could live in his fit with his family sustained ancestry you said that the family was very private yes i did the objection is sustaining the answer he's already testified to it without objection just because of that doesn't open up the area objection sustained during the flight from miami you said your mother was sitting next to

you yes she was did she appear to be concerned with Eric's well-being definitely now you said that i was the first person that you relayed the conversations about the molestation too is that right yes that's right and do you remember when it was that you first told me i don't remember the date no do you remember the month and the year uh no i don't january 9th i haven't heard the question yet excuse me what was your question the question was would january 1991 refresh your recollection i told you that's when i first met you

that's right that's right and as of january 1991 were you under 18 yes i was and when you were under 18 uh were you prohibited from visiting your cousin in the county jail that is true and did you ever strike that did you visit him then before you told me or only after you told me only after i told you i have nothing further any further across counter i'll be okay if i get some more one i'm sure thanks yes that's right you flew back from florida about march of 1990 i i flew in with

him that was the only Time that i can remember and did you have any uh discussions with any relatives about the nature of the defense in this case objection on our personal today is behind objection did you did you get any calls first of all from eric menendez uh after he was incarcerated in the los angeles county jail i don't think so you don't think so i don't remember any so no have you ever had any conversations with him after he was incarcerated about phone calls yes i believe i might have talked to him a

couple times uh maybe i i don't remember where i don't know so in these conversations after your cousin was incarcerated in the los angeles county jail uh what were the nature of the what was the nature of those conversations objection your honor calls for hearsay no foundation well it's why don't you describe you're referring to conversations between the defendant and the witness yes at the county jail no over the phone when after the defendant was incarcerated in the county jail so that we should talk about i'm sorry you understand that after your cousin was incarcerated

in the county jail in march of 1990 he called you on the phone is that correct objection on vegas to time objection to the question i ever call you after he was arrested Yes he called me and where did you receive those phone calls i think i talked to him once in my house and my mother's house in west palm beach and do you recall staying for a time in los angeles after your cousin was arrested that is when you came on the flight from from miami to los angeles did you immediately turn around and

go back to miami i might have stayed a couple days i don't remember now did you have any conversations um well where were you staying after you arrived in los angeles after the defendant was arrested after he was arrested i believe i was staying in the beverly hills home okay so during that period of time that when you were there at the beverly hills home did you receive any calls from the defendant i didn't know you don't know no i did not you did not no was there anyone else with you at that house during

that period of time my grandmother and my mother believe now think back on this call that you got from the defendant at your home in florida what what was said by the defendant in that conversation i don't remember the nature of the conversation i was mainly concerned with how he was doing and how he was spending the time had you at that point heard the evidence against him that is had you read any articles about The case i don't think i'd read any articles i might have watched the news so after watching the news uh

did you also have discussions with relatives about the case no never ever discussed anything really with relatives it wasn't something we wanted to bring up did you ever talk to your mother about this case no never i've talked to her about you know friends or other things that might happen but never about the context of the case okay let's just get this straight you've talked about friends and other things but you've never talked about this case with your mother over the past four years well i'm sure i've talked to her several times but not about

the defense if that's what you're implying you never talk i'm i'm not sure i'm understanding you miss cram okay i'm going to objectify questions so be calling for here so well it's unfocused so let's see if we can pinpoint a little bit mr curiama and see if we can finish this ejection sustain mr kano is it your testimony that from the time that eric menendez was arrested in march of 1990 to today as you sit there on the witness stand that you've not talked to your mother about this case i'm sure i have and what

have you talked to her about objection assistant i don't remember i never revealed wait wait just wait for another question have you this goes to your state of mind have you Gotten information about the nature of this case over the past over the past uh four years and i'm going to object to those assistant mr connell the only conversations that you really remember are the ones that you had with your cousin about these alleged massages that be fair to say those are the ones that stick out in my head yes you don't remember anything about

the uh suicide calls or anything after the defendant called you after he was arrested you don't remember the nature of any of those calls objection or it's compounded it's been asked and answered nothing further guys all right anything else okay all right you may step down thank you your excuse thank you it's armando a-r-m-a-n-d-o lopez l-o-p-e-z mr lopez what is your occupation sir i'm a private investigator and are you appointed by the court to be a private investigator on this case on behalf of the defendants eric and lyle menendez yes ma'am and would you tell

the jury what your background is in investigations and law enforcement i was a police officer for the city of santa monica for approximately 17 years three of which were patrol and the remainder were in the detective bureau as an investigator and in the course of your employment as a santa monica police officer did you become familiar with firearms Your last name leslie samoan elmore p-l-m-o-r-e yeah please spell your middle name for us simone s-i-m-o-n-n-e ms elmer what's your occupation i'm a paramedic and where do you work buncombe county ems state excuse me buncombe county and

where is buncombe county north carolina how do you spell that uh buncombe b-u-n-c-o-m-b-e okay and where were you raised princeton new jersey when you were growing up in princeton did you attend the princeton day school yes i did and was that for your entire education or just report from can from first grade through senior year in high school barbara howarth h-o-w-a-r-t-h mrs howard what is your occupation i i'm a teacher i teach english at princeton day school and how long have you been a teacher i've been teaching for a little over 30 years about 21

of them at the day school now directing your attention to the years 1985 to 1986. did you have eric menendez in an english class at princeton day school yes i did i taught ninth grade english that year and was that a class that met four days a week yes about how long would each class last they would vary some classes were 40 Step forward please could you raise your right hand please to be stormed you soundly swear that the testimony you may give and the cause now pending before this court should be the truth the

whole truth and then commit the truth the name is norman the last name is pulse p-u-l-s i just lean back and michael pick up your voice thank you mr pulse do you work as a tutor i do and how long have you worked as a tutor about 13 14 years now is there any particular area that you teach