There's a new president of the United States who will take office in January. Donald Trump, you worked with him once. I want to start sort of at the beginning, and there's been a lot made, and you've written about it when you you were one of the first world leaders to meet him.
You came to Washington and out of sight of the cameras, you shook hands, you did your thing, etc. inside of the cameras in the famous Oval Office with the fireplace between you. He didn't want to shake hands with you, and even though you asked him kind of discreetly, he just refused point blank and kept looking at the cameras.
And I thought it was really interesting because you said he wanted to create conversation fodder through his behavior. While I thought I was having a discussion with somebody completely normal, is he not completely normal in your view? I think it was President Trump, definitely.
I think President Trump lives off, actually acting unconventionally and in this way draws the attention of people to himself. Either he, shook the hands of some of my colleagues three times longer, than we usually do, or with me. He didn't do it at all.
At this point in time, I had forgotten. and normally you would say, well, you shake hands and that's it. But, when you're in this situation, you don't and you don't even think about it with him, all of these external things, these gestures always were part of a of a statement because he wanted to the very clearly show that outside of political talks, in these situations, he puts down a marker, whatever he means with it.
You also described him as as I dealt. In fact, he dealt with emotions. How did that affect some of the key issues that you were trying to deal with?
His emotional view of politics. It shouldn't look bleak, I would say, looking back, we and I'm also speaking here of NATO members and, EU members. We were actually able to get to sensible agreements with him.
But when you think about tariffs on steel, for example, at first they were only talking about China, and he was talking about the subsidies that China injects into the steel industry. And then all of a sudden we were also covered by tariffs. And these tariffs are still in place today, unfortunately.
But then he wanted to put down a marker, make a statement on this. But in spite of all adversity, we were NATO. members able to pursue NATO in a sensible way.
And I would hope and wish that this happens also in the next four years to come. I remember very distinctly when Donald Trump was first elected. You did one of you were the only one to actually welcome his election conditionally.
In other words, based on the respect and the adherence to mutual values, democracy, freedom, diversity, rule of law, human rights, etc. . and I just, you know, wonder whether you thought he did act in that way, and especially because you said he was clearly fascinated by the Russian president in the years that followed, I received the distinct impression that he was captivated by politicians with autocratic and dictatorial traits.
How did that manifest itself to you? The art and science of the, in Putin's path? Well, in the way, that he spoke about Putin, the way that he spoke about the North Korean president, obviously, apart from critical remarks he made, there was always a kind of fascination that the sheer power of what these people could do.
So my impression always was that he dreamt of actually overriding maybe all those parliamentary bodies that he felt were in a way, and encumbrance upon him, and that he wanted to decide matters on his own. And in a democracy. Well, you cannot reconcile that with democratic values.
Can I ask you? It's just popped into my head. His former chief of staff, John Kelly, who was a marine general.
He actually said that Donald Trump had expressed no interest approval of Nazi generals. I wish mine my you know, politicians. My military would like the German generals.
Does that surprise you that he would say something like that? And that's how we got garnished? Honestly speaking, I never heard this and I wouldn't want to make any comment on this.
I said that he was fascinated. Not too much co determination, as it were, or too many other people having and say he wanted to be the person who makes the judgment and the call. But I think if you approach once you approached him without any fear and was clear, a clear cut strategy, he listened.
And I think he smells when people are a little bit afraid of him, and when you're not, then you can enter into talks with him. And you were not known? No.
I was the elected. A chance that the Federal Republic of Germany. I mean, we're not a country.
We have our own interests, our own vested interests. And I was always guided by these, national interests, I think the United States of America, as such an important power, has super power. But we in Europe are also important.
The United States of America cannot do that. Things on their own completely. We have an alliance.
We have NATO together. So this is not just something where we owe something to the Americans. As Donald Trump quite often said.
But the United States of America, too, must have a vested interest or should have a vested interest. At least that would be my advice, because when we stand together, we're simply stronger. And there are so many in the, in the world who do not want democracy.
So strength is is important in this. Against this background, you and President Obama did write an op ed saying, when we stand together, we're stronger. but you also have written in your book about what it was like to negotiate with Donald Trump.
And all of this is important not just to look back, but to look forward, because you've talked about terrorists. Well, he has threatened already, not even in office yet to slap huge tariffs on many, many different countries, including possibly, Europe. and you've described him as a negotiator who didn't see a win win situation.
Tell me how he came across as a negotiator now. So does this mean? Well, for me, it was clear that with him, there will not be a free trade agreement, for example, between the European Union and the United States of America.
With President Obama, we had tried to come to, this transatlantic trade agreement. we negotiated that, and I didn't think that this was possible. Donald Trump I think at the end of the day, Donald Trump was always, weigh what his actions mean for the American voter and for the American citizen.
and, and, the way that in the balance and one of the, issues here are high prices. So if I were to impose tariffs on countries where I might be able to buy, things cheaply and due to the tear gas prices will rise and it would be difficult for somebody such as, President Trump. And he didn't want prices to rise, at least not been, you know, years ago.
So there will be big discussions over tariffs and the impact of that. That's very clear. But President Trump always said to his voters also during his first term in office, that he will have a better life due to him if they vote for him.
So there are very good reasons to look at the at the world being, sort of a linked by all of these different bonds. And the United States doesn't have all of these raw materials and raw resources that they need for production on their own. They need to the rest of the world for this.
You've said that he has a nationalistic tone and that, a lot of his negotiations involve a zero sum game that for him to win, the other person had to lose. Period. End of story.
Is that constructive in diplomacy or trade negotiations as this enigma about so many about. So it's not my conviction. I am convinced that so wise compromises you can bring about a win win situation.
Situations where the whole world benefits and oneself also benefits from that. I am someone who actually greatly respects international organizations the United Nations, the World Trade Organizations and others. I think they're very, very important.
I would like to remind all of us, which has somehow receded into the background, that the biggest challenges, climate change and, the loss of biodiversity, a human being gets much more, vulnerable due to this. And China, the biggest emitter. we have to have them in on this, because otherwise we will not be able to make progress on climate change.
And maybe, you may shorten in the short run, win. But in the long run, humankind will not be the better, for it will not survive. Can I just ask you two quick questions?
Do you think he will pull out of the climate deal? Do you think he will pull out of NATO? Do you think he will say, more and more of the defense spending and that we won't defend you unless you pay more as the Chinese, that's Oracle here.
And. Well, I'm not the Oracle, of Delphi, so to speak, in this and this interview, what I witnessed was that the results of the Paris climate conference, that was something that he withdrew from, and the G20 meeting in Hamburg. We then had to adopt a 19 to 1 statement due to this, where the United States, stayed out of it.
I hope and trust at least this was the case last time that NATO will prevail. But, the request that the Europeans to or the demand that the Europeans pay more will still be out, that Germany is now paying the 2% that we agreed on in Wales. But the American defense budget is way higher.
And the challenge for Europe, also with regard to Russia, in order to develop a credible, deterrence, will be to also increase, defense expenditure. So I assume that, I have to say that, 2% would probably not be the end of it. and that's what I write in my book, too.
That's my prediction.
